Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.

Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.

Let me tell you we have a new star.

Let me tell you we have a new star.

A star is born Elon mars Juson Kennemy.

A star is born Elon mars Juson Kennemy.

He is the Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age.

He is the Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age.

Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity. I feel for the guy.

Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity. I feel for the guy.

I would say ninety eight percent really appreciate what he does. But those two percent that are nasty, they are I'll pay in four fos.

I would say ninety eight percent really appreciate what he does. But those two percent that are nasty, they are I'll pay in four fos.

We were meant for great things in the United States of America, and Elon reminds us of that we don't have a fourth branch of governments called Elon Musk. Welcome to elan Ing, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. It's Tuesday, March eleventh. I'm your host, David Popadopolis. So this is what a bad week looks like. I mean a very very bad week for Elon. Not only has Tesla stock continued a crater it dropped fifteen percent on Monday alone, but he seems to be losing on all fronts right now. X was hit by sporadic outages Monday that Elon blamed on hackers. A SpaceX rocket blow up, rain debris and grounded flights at airports in Florida. Doge is running into more and more roadblocks from both the courts and from within the Trump administration itself. Mosk, through it all, is putting on a brave face, setting his sights on bigger and boulder things for Doge to cut from the budget. But has he backed himself into a corner. Here to discuss all this, we have our trusty muscologists, Max Chaffkin and Dana Hall. Hello to you both, Hey, David, Dana, how are you good?

We were meant for great things in the United States of America, and Elon reminds us of that we don't have a fourth branch of governments called Elon Musk. Welcome to elan Ing, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. It's Tuesday, March eleventh. I'm your host, David Popadopolis. So this is what a bad week looks like. I mean a very very bad week for Elon. Not only has Tesla stock continued a crater it dropped fifteen percent on Monday alone, but he seems to be losing on all fronts right now. X was hit by sporadic outages Monday that Elon blamed on hackers. A SpaceX rocket blow up, rain debris and grounded flights at airports in Florida. Doge is running into more and more roadblocks from both the courts and from within the Trump administration itself. Mosk, through it all, is putting on a brave face, setting his sights on bigger and boulder things for Doge to cut from the budget. But has he backed himself into a corner. Here to discuss all this, we have our trusty muscologists, Max Chaffkin and Dana Hall. Hello to you both, Hey, David, Dana, how are you good?

Good? Good to be here?

Good? Good to be here?

Okay? And then later on in the episode, Bloomberg Stocks reporter Esha Day will join us to talk all about Tesla's free fall. Okay, Dana, So let's start by going a little bit to the tail end of last week for those who may have missed it. There was a cabinet meeting in Washington that Musk attended and it got a little sporty. Tell us what happened.

Okay? And then later on in the episode, Bloomberg Stocks reporter Esha Day will join us to talk all about Tesla's free fall. Okay, Dana, So let's start by going a little bit to the tail end of last week for those who may have missed it. There was a cabinet meeting in Washington that Musk attended and it got a little sporty. Tell us what happened.

Yeah, So what was interesting is that this cabinet meeting was not on the president's daily schedule. But Sean Duffy, the Transportation Secretary, posted on x that he was like headed into a cabinet meeting, And so we were like, wait, what, there's a cabinet meeting, And then The New York Times reported that the things got pretty spicy. Apparently there was like a testy exchange between Musk and Marco Ribio about cuts at the Department of State, and then you know, Musk was basically saying that these guys weren't cutting fast enough or deep enough, and then there was sort of pushback from the cabinets. Duffy was saying, you know, you want me to fire all these air traffic controllers and I've got planes falling out of the sky. And The New York Times reported that that Trump was kind of like watching these exchanges, ping pong back and forth, like almost like he was watching a tennis match, and then the kind of upshe is that Trump then basically said that Doge is like an advisor, but that the deep cuts are, you know, in the province of the Cabinet secretary.

Yeah, So what was interesting is that this cabinet meeting was not on the president's daily schedule. But Sean Duffy, the Transportation Secretary, posted on x that he was like headed into a cabinet meeting, And so we were like, wait, what, there's a cabinet meeting, And then The New York Times reported that the things got pretty spicy. Apparently there was like a testy exchange between Musk and Marco Ribio about cuts at the Department of State, and then you know, Musk was basically saying that these guys weren't cutting fast enough or deep enough, and then there was sort of pushback from the cabinets. Duffy was saying, you know, you want me to fire all these air traffic controllers and I've got planes falling out of the sky. And The New York Times reported that that Trump was kind of like watching these exchanges, ping pong back and forth, like almost like he was watching a tennis match, and then the kind of upshe is that Trump then basically said that Doge is like an advisor, but that the deep cuts are, you know, in the province of the Cabinet secretary.

So there's like a.

So there's like a.

Little bit of a power struggle going on.

Little bit of a power struggle going on.

You know.

You know.

Obviously I wasn't at the meeting, would love a readout if you were, but it's just like the sort of the first sign that there is tension between Musk and the Cabinet secretaries about how these agencies are basically being overtaken by Doge.

Obviously I wasn't at the meeting, would love a readout if you were, but it's just like the sort of the first sign that there is tension between Musk and the Cabinet secretaries about how these agencies are basically being overtaken by Doge.

Yeah, and just add one think, Trump after this meeting did a truth which is, you know, the truth social version of a tweet Nique a Nicks. And he essentially said, we're not going to use a hatchet. We're going to use a scalpel, which feels like a implicit rebuke or correction or something to Elon Musk. Of course, in the next paragraph he talked all about how great a job Elon Musk is doing, and Musk when he posted this, he only posted a portion of the truth. He posted the second paragraph, not the one about the scalpel.

Yeah, and just add one think, Trump after this meeting did a truth which is, you know, the truth social version of a tweet Nique a Nicks. And he essentially said, we're not going to use a hatchet. We're going to use a scalpel, which feels like a implicit rebuke or correction or something to Elon Musk. Of course, in the next paragraph he talked all about how great a job Elon Musk is doing, and Musk when he posted this, he only posted a portion of the truth. He posted the second paragraph, not the one about the scalpel.

It's fascinating that we've gone from Musk wielding a chainsaw at SAPAC to Trump saying we're not going to use a hatchet, We're going to use a scalpel. So like what's next, like tweezers, like we're going down We're going downstream in terms of like the size and scope of the of the implement.

It's fascinating that we've gone from Musk wielding a chainsaw at SAPAC to Trump saying we're not going to use a hatchet, We're going to use a scalpel. So like what's next, like tweezers, like we're going down We're going downstream in terms of like the size and scope of the of the implement.

Here, clearly here max hard to interpret this any other way. Even though the reporting from inside the room that we saw in The Times and in other places, mostly the Times, did make it clear that Musk certainly counterpunched and was effective to a degree, but it's really hard to interpret it any other way than it was a defeat and a setback for his endeavor.

Here, clearly here max hard to interpret this any other way. Even though the reporting from inside the room that we saw in The Times and in other places, mostly the Times, did make it clear that Musk certainly counterpunched and was effective to a degree, but it's really hard to interpret it any other way than it was a defeat and a setback for his endeavor.

I think Musk has struggled to some extent to transition from the kind of realities of campaigning, and even in the transition, when there weren't these Senate confirmed appointees taking responsibility for these agencies. So like, what's changed now is you have Marco Rubio in charge of the Department State, Shawn Duffy in charge of the Department of Transportation. If a plane crashes tomorrow, God forbid, Shaw Duffy is the one who's gonna have to answer questions, not Elon Musk, no matter what Elon Musk does, no matter how you know, what his influence is. And that is creating pressure on these cabinet appointees, which is now a counterweight to Elon Musk. And I think so, and I think that's what we're seeing. This was inevitable, this was going to happen, and here we are it is happening because of course, none of these Cabinet secretary, as much as they agree maybe in principle with the idea of cutting government spending. None of them want their departments to be cut too much, and they're going to be concerned, especially given musks, you know, pension for willy nilly, you know, cut now, ask questions later.

I think Musk has struggled to some extent to transition from the kind of realities of campaigning, and even in the transition, when there weren't these Senate confirmed appointees taking responsibility for these agencies. So like, what's changed now is you have Marco Rubio in charge of the Department State, Shawn Duffy in charge of the Department of Transportation. If a plane crashes tomorrow, God forbid, Shaw Duffy is the one who's gonna have to answer questions, not Elon Musk, no matter what Elon Musk does, no matter how you know, what his influence is. And that is creating pressure on these cabinet appointees, which is now a counterweight to Elon Musk. And I think so, and I think that's what we're seeing. This was inevitable, this was going to happen, and here we are it is happening because of course, none of these Cabinet secretary, as much as they agree maybe in principle with the idea of cutting government spending. None of them want their departments to be cut too much, and they're going to be concerned, especially given musks, you know, pension for willy nilly, you know, cut now, ask questions later.

So, Dana, it strikes me that what we're seeing a little bit here is the classic musk of putting my head down. I'm just efing going for it. Balls to the wall, to hell with everyone. We're just going to go full speed ahead and just see what that what the hell comes out of it. All that may work to a certain degree at Tesla, at X and at other places, but right as Max is getting out here, the political reality of trying to do that in Washington, it's just a it's just a different dynamic.

So, Dana, it strikes me that what we're seeing a little bit here is the classic musk of putting my head down. I'm just efing going for it. Balls to the wall, to hell with everyone. We're just going to go full speed ahead and just see what that what the hell comes out of it. All that may work to a certain degree at Tesla, at X and at other places, but right as Max is getting out here, the political reality of trying to do that in Washington, it's just a it's just a different dynamic.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But he's also it's also making him dig in even more because he's saying things like, well, it's like the ideas that the quote unquote deeed State is squealing and like you know, all of the Democrats who are in on this or of course they're responding, and that he's fabricated this whole thing in his mind where you know, the media and the NGOs and government employees and federal workers and contractors and George Soros are like all in on this, like massive grift that he alone is like untangling for the world. But it is fundamentally like a misunderstanding of how bureaucracy works and how you know many of these people are lifelong civil servants.

But he's also it's also making him dig in even more because he's saying things like, well, it's like the ideas that the quote unquote deeed State is squealing and like you know, all of the Democrats who are in on this or of course they're responding, and that he's fabricated this whole thing in his mind where you know, the media and the NGOs and government employees and federal workers and contractors and George Soros are like all in on this, like massive grift that he alone is like untangling for the world. But it is fundamentally like a misunderstanding of how bureaucracy works and how you know many of these people are lifelong civil servants.

Yeah, so we actually have him, Dana in his own words here he is speaking on Fox Business with Larry Kudlow. Let's listen to that.

Yeah, so we actually have him, Dana in his own words here he is speaking on Fox Business with Larry Kudlow. Let's listen to that.

You're giving up your other stuff? I mean, how are you running your other businesses.

You're giving up your other stuff? I mean, how are you running your other businesses.

With great difficulty? Yeah, I mean that.

With great difficulty? Yeah, I mean that.

There's no turning back.

There's no turning back.

You're saying, I'm just here trying to make government more efficient.

You're saying, I'm just here trying to make government more efficient.

Okay, So Max, I know I said at the top that Musk is putting a brave face on it all. But man, those were some deep size.

Okay, So Max, I know I said at the top that Musk is putting a brave face on it all. But man, those were some deep size.

You know, he does this and like that part.

You know, he does this and like that part.

Do you think it's just for you think it's it's No.

Do you think it's just for you think it's it's No.

I think it's both a performance, but I think it is also genuine, right, Like, I mean, obviously he is struggling to run his companies and do the job that he's doing, as his comments indicate. I do think that there are ways in which the kind of the sort of practical ins and outs of what he's trying to do in government, and also the kind of impression, the branding of what he's trying to do conflicts with who he is. Like his thing in the past has been putting himself almost deliberately into these crises and sleeping on the floor, which you know, dramatically right. But now like suddenly, this this performance is coming off a little bit differently, partly because what he's doing is just like fundamentally not gonna be as popular as building an awesome, super fast, super cool electric car, you know, or whatever, and or taking the planet in mars, like like being really good at like cutting parts of the federal budget, even if you're awesome at it, even if there's none of the sort of negative press, even if you don't accidentally fire you know, a bunch of nuclear engineers or air traffic controllers, Like I still think it's just inherently not gonna be as cool. And then when he admits like, yeah, it's tough, Like if I'm an investor in one of these other companies, like ooh, this is gonna give me a feeling that is not great. It's gonna confirm some of maybe my worst fears about what where this thing is leading where Musk is at once distracted so that he's not spending as much time with the companies as he once did obviously, but also eroding his brand. And I'm just sort of watching my investments lose value day by day.

I think it's both a performance, but I think it is also genuine, right, Like, I mean, obviously he is struggling to run his companies and do the job that he's doing, as his comments indicate. I do think that there are ways in which the kind of the sort of practical ins and outs of what he's trying to do in government, and also the kind of impression, the branding of what he's trying to do conflicts with who he is. Like his thing in the past has been putting himself almost deliberately into these crises and sleeping on the floor, which you know, dramatically right. But now like suddenly, this this performance is coming off a little bit differently, partly because what he's doing is just like fundamentally not gonna be as popular as building an awesome, super fast, super cool electric car, you know, or whatever, and or taking the planet in mars, like like being really good at like cutting parts of the federal budget, even if you're awesome at it, even if there's none of the sort of negative press, even if you don't accidentally fire you know, a bunch of nuclear engineers or air traffic controllers, Like I still think it's just inherently not gonna be as cool. And then when he admits like, yeah, it's tough, Like if I'm an investor in one of these other companies, like ooh, this is gonna give me a feeling that is not great. It's gonna confirm some of maybe my worst fears about what where this thing is leading where Musk is at once distracted so that he's not spending as much time with the companies as he once did obviously, but also eroding his brand. And I'm just sort of watching my investments lose value day by day.

Yeah, So, Dana, those size bring me to a question that I meant to and failed to ask last week. So I will ask you it now. Elon Musk, knowing what he knows now, had he known this on oh, I don't know, say June the first of last year, or October the first of last year, or November fifth, would he say yes to doing it all over again?

Yeah, So, Dana, those size bring me to a question that I meant to and failed to ask last week. So I will ask you it now. Elon Musk, knowing what he knows now, had he known this on oh, I don't know, say June the first of last year, or October the first of last year, or November fifth, would he say yes to doing it all over again?

Yes?

Yes?

I mean this is why he donated to Trump's campaign and he pitched this idea. Like Elon Musk has has always been driven by two goals, getting to Mars and getting rid of regulation. Those are that is what is driving him. Maybe he didn't expected to be so bumpy. Maybe he expected more people to like applaud his efforts and not to get the kind of pushback that he's getting. I mean, you're seeing all these protests at the Tesla showrooms. But no, I mean I think that you know this is like he proposed this idea that there is a reason why he donated to the campaign.

I mean this is why he donated to Trump's campaign and he pitched this idea. Like Elon Musk has has always been driven by two goals, getting to Mars and getting rid of regulation. Those are that is what is driving him. Maybe he didn't expected to be so bumpy. Maybe he expected more people to like applaud his efforts and not to get the kind of pushback that he's getting. I mean, you're seeing all these protests at the Tesla showrooms. But no, I mean I think that you know this is like he proposed this idea that there is a reason why he donated to the campaign.

And but so so you don't think you don't think he feels like in hindsight, it was just a bridge too far.

And but so so you don't think you don't think he feels like in hindsight, it was just a bridge too far.

No, because he loves to create. This is sort of who he is. Like, and I've been through so many cycles of this with Elon before, and it's like every time we get to like a new quote unquote crisis, everyone's like, oh my god, this is it. But like we've been through this countless times. In twenty eighteen, when he tried to like fake the buyout of going private and when he bought Twitter, like everyone was like, oh my god, Like this is the end. He's going to be so distracted.

No, because he loves to create. This is sort of who he is. Like, and I've been through so many cycles of this with Elon before, and it's like every time we get to like a new quote unquote crisis, everyone's like, oh my god, this is it. But like we've been through this countless times. In twenty eighteen, when he tried to like fake the buyout of going private and when he bought Twitter, like everyone was like, oh my god, Like this is the end. He's going to be so distracted.

And then you're telling me, you're telling me he actually loves this. He's this is his this is his Okay.

And then you're telling me, you're telling me he actually loves this. He's this is his this is his Okay.

Yes, he creates chaos on purpose, right, Okay, that's how he throws That's how he.

Yes, he creates chaos on purpose, right, Okay, that's how he throws That's how he.

Okay, we need to move on from Washington and go to x, which was down for users at different parts of the day yesterday. Max tell us what transpired.

Okay, we need to move on from Washington and go to x, which was down for users at different parts of the day yesterday. Max tell us what transpired.

You know X Twitter has long had issues with uptime. This is a site that gets at times like huge amounts of traffic and you know, over the years, like has gone down numerous times. There have also been numerous incidents like this where there's some sort of denial of service attack or cyber attack. The site went down yesterday, I should say, there were sort of intermittent outages over a period of time across you know, a number of countries. I was not able to use it, you know, you know me, I'm a big X user. I was not able to get on weeks from no weeks is I was not able to get on for hours yesterday. So from my own personal experience.

You know X Twitter has long had issues with uptime. This is a site that gets at times like huge amounts of traffic and you know, over the years, like has gone down numerous times. There have also been numerous incidents like this where there's some sort of denial of service attack or cyber attack. The site went down yesterday, I should say, there were sort of intermittent outages over a period of time across you know, a number of countries. I was not able to use it, you know, you know me, I'm a big X user. I was not able to get on weeks from no weeks is I was not able to get on for hours yesterday. So from my own personal experience.

Is that why you're in such a crappy mood today?

Is that why you're in such a crappy mood today?

Yeah, I didn't get my fixed. It seemed like a particularly bad, you know, sort of crash or whatever.

Yeah, I didn't get my fixed. It seemed like a particularly bad, you know, sort of crash or whatever.

Any work of the Ukrainian he blamed.

Any work of the Ukrainian he blamed.

Yeah, well he said he didn't exactly say that. He said there were IP addresses in Ukraine. Of course, he's What he's trying to do is suggest that somehow Zelenski, in addition to like not saying thank you or something, set the hackers on Twitter. Certainly possible, although there is a group, a hacking group that has taken responsibility. They're a sort of pro Palestinian aligned hacker collective. So again, we don't I don't think we know yet who did it, But of course it's not good for business and it and when you when you layer in all of the other things that we're going to be talking about, it doesn't necessarily communicate command or having having their stuff together.

Yeah, well he said he didn't exactly say that. He said there were IP addresses in Ukraine. Of course, he's What he's trying to do is suggest that somehow Zelenski, in addition to like not saying thank you or something, set the hackers on Twitter. Certainly possible, although there is a group, a hacking group that has taken responsibility. They're a sort of pro Palestinian aligned hacker collective. So again, we don't I don't think we know yet who did it, But of course it's not good for business and it and when you when you layer in all of the other things that we're going to be talking about, it doesn't necessarily communicate command or having having their stuff together.

No, Dana. Meanwhile, a SpaceX rocket launch late last week was quite a show, but I suppose for for the wrong reasons.

No, Dana. Meanwhile, a SpaceX rocket launch late last week was quite a show, but I suppose for for the wrong reasons.

Yeah, I mean, it launched okay, but then it blew apart and then debris kind of like closed air travel in Florida for a little while. I mean, I think, you know, in SpaceX's defense, they would argue that every time they have a mistake, they learn from it, they get better, they iterate, they improve on things like you don't make advances in sciences and technology without a lot of experimentation. But you know, Musk has always been someone who is spinning a lot of plates. And as Max and I wrote earlier this year, you know, he is running six companies and now he's got a seventh, which is running the government. And it's only a matter of time before like one of those plates comes crashing down. So how long he can keep them all spinning as anyone's guest, but he's we've sort of been in these crisis moments before.

Yeah, I mean, it launched okay, but then it blew apart and then debris kind of like closed air travel in Florida for a little while. I mean, I think, you know, in SpaceX's defense, they would argue that every time they have a mistake, they learn from it, they get better, they iterate, they improve on things like you don't make advances in sciences and technology without a lot of experimentation. But you know, Musk has always been someone who is spinning a lot of plates. And as Max and I wrote earlier this year, you know, he is running six companies and now he's got a seventh, which is running the government. And it's only a matter of time before like one of those plates comes crashing down. So how long he can keep them all spinning as anyone's guest, but he's we've sort of been in these crisis moments before.

So Max Dana points out that SpaceX and Musk love to learn and iterate from these blow ups, and they kind of, to a certain extent almost even enjoy them in the sense that they then get to autopsy the whole thing and go on. That's fine, learning and iterating is one thing. But raining so much to debris down that airports are shut down for a while, Is that okay? Is that normal?

So Max Dana points out that SpaceX and Musk love to learn and iterate from these blow ups, and they kind of, to a certain extent almost even enjoy them in the sense that they then get to autopsy the whole thing and go on. That's fine, learning and iterating is one thing. But raining so much to debris down that airports are shut down for a while, Is that okay? Is that normal?

No?

No?

And it's not. And so obviously yes, it's true that like they're not going to get to Mars or even get this uh spacecraft working on one launch. By design, these things are are not going to work out. They're not launching any real cargo yet. For this very reason, I believe there were some rocket was by the way, this was a starship rocket. This is the This is the spacecraft that Elon Musk sees as the Mars vehicle for now, though SpaceX has a contract to land this is a lunar landing craft for for the Moon mission, right, but musks that that's the contract that they have.

And it's not. And so obviously yes, it's true that like they're not going to get to Mars or even get this uh spacecraft working on one launch. By design, these things are are not going to work out. They're not launching any real cargo yet. For this very reason, I believe there were some rocket was by the way, this was a starship rocket. This is the This is the spacecraft that Elon Musk sees as the Mars vehicle for now, though SpaceX has a contract to land this is a lunar landing craft for for the Moon mission, right, but musks that that's the contract that they have.

Moon is for losers.

Moon is for losers.

That's what Elon Musk says, but now, but the challenge here is that, well, first of all, one challenge is there are a lot of people who who don't think the Moon is for losers, and and those people include many of the other companies who have contracts UH to send people and parts and so on to the Moon. There is going to be political opposition. There already is political opposition to any effort to sort of like as Musk has sort of hinted, like, cancel the Artemist program, which is the Moon program and replace it with a Mars program. The other day, Trump actually brought up Mars and said it, well, it's it's not that big a priority, which I would say is in start contrast to how Elon Musk s is it. These launches are have scientific and engineering value, but they also are political. And we learned that during the campaign trail when Trump over and over and over again talked about how beautiful it was, how amazing the arms they lived. You know, we all heard this over and over again. Dan and I heard it in person in Madison Square Garden. Trump loves like cradling a baby like Trump loves to talk about it because and of course he loves it because it is like a perfect illustration of Elon Musk's competence and at and so when we see the opposite, it doesn't convey that, and it makes it all the harder for Elon Musk to argue that the United States should bet on this technology which is a new technology, which is not totally figured out, which could fail. Right, Like, so, yes, the failures are by design, but they're not good.

That's what Elon Musk says, but now, but the challenge here is that, well, first of all, one challenge is there are a lot of people who who don't think the Moon is for losers, and and those people include many of the other companies who have contracts UH to send people and parts and so on to the Moon. There is going to be political opposition. There already is political opposition to any effort to sort of like as Musk has sort of hinted, like, cancel the Artemist program, which is the Moon program and replace it with a Mars program. The other day, Trump actually brought up Mars and said it, well, it's it's not that big a priority, which I would say is in start contrast to how Elon Musk s is it. These launches are have scientific and engineering value, but they also are political. And we learned that during the campaign trail when Trump over and over and over again talked about how beautiful it was, how amazing the arms they lived. You know, we all heard this over and over again. Dan and I heard it in person in Madison Square Garden. Trump loves like cradling a baby like Trump loves to talk about it because and of course he loves it because it is like a perfect illustration of Elon Musk's competence and at and so when we see the opposite, it doesn't convey that, and it makes it all the harder for Elon Musk to argue that the United States should bet on this technology which is a new technology, which is not totally figured out, which could fail. Right, Like, so, yes, the failures are by design, but they're not good.

As we wrap this segment here, Max, I'll just say that Musk, like I knows that stocks go to the moon, starships go to Mars. Come on, I don't.

As we wrap this segment here, Max, I'll just say that Musk, like I knows that stocks go to the moon, starships go to Mars. Come on, I don't.

I don't totally know what that means.

I don't totally know what that means.

But okay, all right, okay, So we're now joined by stocks reporter Esha Day. Hello, Esha, welcome back.

But okay, all right, okay, So we're now joined by stocks reporter Esha Day. Hello, Esha, welcome back.

Hello.

Hello.

So I told you to come back on when you had something interesting to talk about, and man, do you so the Tesla, the stock has been in free fall, notwithstanding a little bit of a bump back up today. Hit us to start with with some superlatives that capture the move in recent days.

So I told you to come back on when you had something interesting to talk about, and man, do you so the Tesla, the stock has been in free fall, notwithstanding a little bit of a bump back up today. Hit us to start with with some superlatives that capture the move in recent days.

Sure, let me absolutely spoil you here. So Tesla says a down forty five percent last I checked for the year.

Sure, let me absolutely spoil you here. So Tesla says a down forty five percent last I checked for the year.

It's really volatile today.

It's really volatile today.

But let's go with forty five percent, and then it's down fifty three percent from the all time high that it touched on December seventeenth. So in the process, the stock has now lost more than eight hundred to be specific, eight hundred and sixteen billion dollars from its market evaluation.

But let's go with forty five percent, and then it's down fifty three percent from the all time high that it touched on December seventeenth. So in the process, the stock has now lost more than eight hundred to be specific, eight hundred and sixteen billion dollars from its market evaluation.

So at and its peak, its market value was.

So at and its peak, its market value was.

One point five trillion.

One point five trillion.

Yes, and currently it's worth around seven hundred billion and change.

Yes, and currently it's worth around seven hundred billion and change.

Yes, and I believe it is the biggest decliner in the S and P five hundred index.

Yes, and I believe it is the biggest decliner in the S and P five hundred index.

Since that's right, yesation, right, yes, you you completely snatched the words out of it is the worst decliner on the SMB five hundred right now by a decent margin, I would say.

Since that's right, yesation, right, yes, you you completely snatched the words out of it is the worst decliner on the SMB five hundred right now by a decent margin, I would say.

So, I get the sense that even the bulls out there, the Tesla perma bulls, are starting to get to get starting to get a bit nervous. What are you hearing?

So, I get the sense that even the bulls out there, the Tesla perma bulls, are starting to get to get starting to get a bit nervous. What are you hearing?

Yes, that's a great way to put it. The perma bulls, some of them extremely vocal and art in Tesla fans, I would say, who absolutely believe in this kind of long term vision of Tesla becoming this pioneer in the fully self driving vehicle, the robot taxi and a much more sophisticated real life AI applications such as humanoid robot and all that. Even those people, when I talk to them for in a very long time, and I have been covering this stock for a while now, this is the first time that I'm hearing them being a little antsy.

Yes, that's a great way to put it. The perma bulls, some of them extremely vocal and art in Tesla fans, I would say, who absolutely believe in this kind of long term vision of Tesla becoming this pioneer in the fully self driving vehicle, the robot taxi and a much more sophisticated real life AI applications such as humanoid robot and all that. Even those people, when I talk to them for in a very long time, and I have been covering this stock for a while now, this is the first time that I'm hearing them being a little antsy.

They're not sure. They're still on the sideline.

They're not sure. They're still on the sideline.

So despite a fifty what seems like a fifty three percent discount, So clearly these people think, and they say this in as many words, that they think there's more to go in this decline. And why is that? The reason is simple, Like you know, the the boom that we saw after the election, it was really not driven by anything fundamental. So now that all that speculative frenzy has been taken out of the stock, people are starting to look at the fundamental. So where do fundamental stand compared to say November.

So despite a fifty what seems like a fifty three percent discount, So clearly these people think, and they say this in as many words, that they think there's more to go in this decline. And why is that? The reason is simple, Like you know, the the boom that we saw after the election, it was really not driven by anything fundamental. So now that all that speculative frenzy has been taken out of the stock, people are starting to look at the fundamental. So where do fundamental stand compared to say November.

Of last year. They look weaker. So there's no reason terrible.

Of last year. They look weaker. So there's no reason terrible.

Right, I mean, in Europe, in parts of the US, sales are way down. The brand has been damaged with the significant swath of consumers out there. But Dana Trump came out last night in truth it was I believe it was last night, and he said He's going to go out himself and buy a Tesla to show support for his man mosque. Is this is going to turn this is going to turn the stock around?

Right, I mean, in Europe, in parts of the US, sales are way down. The brand has been damaged with the significant swath of consumers out there. But Dana Trump came out last night in truth it was I believe it was last night, and he said He's going to go out himself and buy a Tesla to show support for his man mosque. Is this is going to turn this is going to turn the stock around?

Well, I mean, it's it's remarkable that the President of the United States is saying this, and his exact quote on truth is I'm going to buy a brand new Tesla tomorrow morning, meeting today today as we speak, as a show, as a show of confidence and support for Elon Musk, a truly great American. So, first of all, I don't see how this works in practice, Like, are we supposed to believe that the President is going to like waltz into some showroom in Washington, DC and like roll out with the cyber truck or something like. I just don't really I scrutinize this very concept.

Well, I mean, it's it's remarkable that the President of the United States is saying this, and his exact quote on truth is I'm going to buy a brand new Tesla tomorrow morning, meeting today today as we speak, as a show, as a show of confidence and support for Elon Musk, a truly great American. So, first of all, I don't see how this works in practice, Like, are we supposed to believe that the President is going to like waltz into some showroom in Washington, DC and like roll out with the cyber truck or something like. I just don't really I scrutinize this very concept.

I could see him rocking a cyber truck.

I could see him rocking a cyber truck.

But secondly, if the whole issue is brand erosion and Tesla's longtime consumer is being very upset that Musk has thrown in his lot with Trump, the idea that Trump is now going to buy a Tesla is just going to further cement Tesla as a brand into like a Magamobile, which you know, Max and I wrote about like two years ago. So I don't see how it helps Elon at all. I just think it's not good.

But secondly, if the whole issue is brand erosion and Tesla's longtime consumer is being very upset that Musk has thrown in his lot with Trump, the idea that Trump is now going to buy a Tesla is just going to further cement Tesla as a brand into like a Magamobile, which you know, Max and I wrote about like two years ago. So I don't see how it helps Elon at all. I just think it's not good.

This is a key thing. And I guess my first reaction was when Trump said he was gonna go buy one. I was like, one, you're gonna buy one Tesla? How about three hundred thousand, buddy? And I guess my question for you, Max is and it gets back to something it's been nagging for a while for me, which is, for every five or ten or twenty buyers Musk loses in Blue America, is there some offset in Red America, some of any kind? And is Trump perhaps nudging those red buyers to get up off the couch and go buy Yes.

This is a key thing. And I guess my first reaction was when Trump said he was gonna go buy one. I was like, one, you're gonna buy one Tesla? How about three hundred thousand, buddy? And I guess my question for you, Max is and it gets back to something it's been nagging for a while for me, which is, for every five or ten or twenty buyers Musk loses in Blue America, is there some offset in Red America, some of any kind? And is Trump perhaps nudging those red buyers to get up off the couch and go buy Yes.

I want to remind people. This would be Trump's second cyber truck. He actually got one from a podcaster in twenty twenty four. I believe we talked about this. It was like it had like I remember stickers on it or something. Anyway, Yeah, it was like a campaign stunt. I don't again, I don't know if he still has it. But it could be a second one could be a Trump fleet. You could have Eric and On Junior both driving cyber trucks. I suppose I do think like there is a universe of of sort of hardcore Trump supporter who has already embraced Elon Musk. We've talked about this a lot, like it's not like there's no sort of like maga buyer coalition, But like Danna saying, this doesn't really help because Musk is already completely Trump coded, I.

I want to remind people. This would be Trump's second cyber truck. He actually got one from a podcaster in twenty twenty four. I believe we talked about this. It was like it had like I remember stickers on it or something. Anyway, Yeah, it was like a campaign stunt. I don't again, I don't know if he still has it. But it could be a second one could be a Trump fleet. You could have Eric and On Junior both driving cyber trucks. I suppose I do think like there is a universe of of sort of hardcore Trump supporter who has already embraced Elon Musk. We've talked about this a lot, like it's not like there's no sort of like maga buyer coalition, But like Danna saying, this doesn't really help because Musk is already completely Trump coded, I.

Guess the pushback on that would be that, yes, that maga crowd that loves the that loves Musk or likes must buys the stock right has been buying the stock, and that was part of ESHA right, the big pop we saw last year in the stock. Can you get them through something like a truth like this to go doing that from buying right, from buying the stock to then no, no, we need you to do more, we need you to buy the vehicle itself.

Guess the pushback on that would be that, yes, that maga crowd that loves the that loves Musk or likes must buys the stock right has been buying the stock, and that was part of ESHA right, the big pop we saw last year in the stock. Can you get them through something like a truth like this to go doing that from buying right, from buying the stock to then no, no, we need you to do more, we need you to buy the vehicle itself.

I just think that, Listen, the economy is really uncertain right now. People are losing their jobs, people are seeing their retirement savings go to hell. They don't know if they're going to have Social Security and Medicare, Like, this is not the time when people make a big purchase like buying a car. There is a reason why Q one sales are going to be crappy, and it's like just buying a car is a huge purchase. It's often the largest purchase that someone makes outside of housing or like a college education. So I just don't think you're seeing people like rushing to the showroom to buy a vehicle. And also, like Tesla's lineup, it's super old, Like Tesla made a big thing of how they're now, you know, selling the refreshed Model Why. So some people are waiting for the Model Y, but there's like the new Model Why. But there's like a ton of inventory on the Tesla website right now. And yeah, I don't think that like Trump, I don't think you're gonna see like a ton of people moving to buy a car right now with so much uncertainty in the wider economy.

I just think that, Listen, the economy is really uncertain right now. People are losing their jobs, people are seeing their retirement savings go to hell. They don't know if they're going to have Social Security and Medicare, Like, this is not the time when people make a big purchase like buying a car. There is a reason why Q one sales are going to be crappy, and it's like just buying a car is a huge purchase. It's often the largest purchase that someone makes outside of housing or like a college education. So I just don't think you're seeing people like rushing to the showroom to buy a vehicle. And also, like Tesla's lineup, it's super old, Like Tesla made a big thing of how they're now, you know, selling the refreshed Model Why. So some people are waiting for the Model Y, but there's like the new Model Why. But there's like a ton of inventory on the Tesla website right now. And yeah, I don't think that like Trump, I don't think you're gonna see like a ton of people moving to buy a car right now with so much uncertainty in the wider economy.

So I actually have esha a theory that came to me the other day on the Model Why refresh. It was an epiphany I had as I was walking down Park Avenue and I saw a cyber truck on one road and I saw an old Model Why in the other and I thought, Man, the problem with this refresh is possible buyers of the new model Why because it looks distinct and unique and new and different than the old ones. They lose plausible deniability. You cannot sit you cannot own it and slap the bumper sticker on it and say I bought this before I knew Elan was crazy. It's just no. Everyone's like, oh man, that's a brand new car. So the theory is that rather than helping them turn sales around, it could deepen their slump. What say, you hit me with it.

So I actually have esha a theory that came to me the other day on the Model Why refresh. It was an epiphany I had as I was walking down Park Avenue and I saw a cyber truck on one road and I saw an old Model Why in the other and I thought, Man, the problem with this refresh is possible buyers of the new model Why because it looks distinct and unique and new and different than the old ones. They lose plausible deniability. You cannot sit you cannot own it and slap the bumper sticker on it and say I bought this before I knew Elan was crazy. It's just no. Everyone's like, oh man, that's a brand new car. So the theory is that rather than helping them turn sales around, it could deepen their slump. What say, you hit me with it.

It's a possibility, right, jeez, that's it.

It's a possibility, right, jeez, that's it.

That's all I get.

That's all I get.

Here's what I'll say.

Here's what I'll say.

So it definitely seems like you know, when I talk to like bullish just tesla investors or analysts, a lot of them will push back on this idea of the of damage to the brand.

So it definitely seems like you know, when I talk to like bullish just tesla investors or analysts, a lot of them will push back on this idea of the of damage to the brand.

But why what do they say when they push back and they say, you're overstating it.

But why what do they say when they push back and they say, you're overstating it.

King, Yes, they think it's just being overstated by the media, it's just being hyped.

King, Yes, they think it's just being overstated by the media, it's just being hyped.

But when they see sales down seventy percent in some places, they think that's a blip that will go away.

But when they see sales down seventy percent in some places, they think that's a blip that will go away.

They say that it's not entirely clear what exactly is going on. Also, Europe and like smaller Europe chemakets like you know, let's first see what's happening in US, because that's kind of the litmus test, right, like what's happening in the US market, which we do not know yet. But my point is the risk of brand damage has to be real enough that it pushed Trump to tweet last night, right, Like it's kind of an acknowledgment of this brand damage that they clearly are seeing happening.

They say that it's not entirely clear what exactly is going on. Also, Europe and like smaller Europe chemakets like you know, let's first see what's happening in US, because that's kind of the litmus test, right, like what's happening in the US market, which we do not know yet. But my point is the risk of brand damage has to be real enough that it pushed Trump to tweet last night, right, Like it's kind of an acknowledgment of this brand damage that they clearly are seeing happening.

Even maga people, even the tard cor Donald Trump people do not like people who throw Nazi salutes or salutes that look Nazi adjacent. Right, Musk's antics have seemed, I think even fairly extreme for some conservatives, and like the idea that there's no brand damage just seems like almost disconnected from reality. I mean, like we're seeing in those European sales numbers that Asha just mentioned, serious brand damage, and we're seeing in the China sales numbers. We're seeing it, in fact in some of the US sales numbers, and even leaving that aside, like these protests in front of Tesla dealerships are real. And it's so interesting because Musk has responded to this and we should say by essentially saying it's a it's all a big conspiracy, right, this is like Act Blue, some Democratic activists, and.

Even maga people, even the tard cor Donald Trump people do not like people who throw Nazi salutes or salutes that look Nazi adjacent. Right, Musk's antics have seemed, I think even fairly extreme for some conservatives, and like the idea that there's no brand damage just seems like almost disconnected from reality. I mean, like we're seeing in those European sales numbers that Asha just mentioned, serious brand damage, and we're seeing in the China sales numbers. We're seeing it, in fact in some of the US sales numbers, and even leaving that aside, like these protests in front of Tesla dealerships are real. And it's so interesting because Musk has responded to this and we should say by essentially saying it's a it's all a big conspiracy, right, this is like Act Blue, some Democratic activists, and.

This is what Trump was saying lesson right, And I.

This is what Trump was saying lesson right, And I.

Think this is a case where actually, like, and he's of course blaming the media, but I think this is really a case where the media has been behind the ball on this, where like the media has not fully realized and I think a lot of Wall Street has not fully realized how significant the opinion shift is, and how like this has become the way that people who are mad at Trump expressed that anger at Trump. You cannot there's nowhere to protest Trump right now. Like I guess you could go to the White House or something, but there are opportunities, you know, every day, a cyber truck, right or whatever to express your displeasure. And like, Musk has made this choice. You know, we talked about it on this podcast, and Bears have been worried about this for years, that he was going to polarize the brand. And I think it would have been less of an issue if Trump had lost the election. But Trump did not lose the election. It also would have been less of an issue if Musk had not taken a job within the Trump administration, It would have been less of an issue if he had taken a less controversial job in the administration. But he has run headlong into this controversy and the electorate is reacting as you'd expect.

Think this is a case where actually, like, and he's of course blaming the media, but I think this is really a case where the media has been behind the ball on this, where like the media has not fully realized and I think a lot of Wall Street has not fully realized how significant the opinion shift is, and how like this has become the way that people who are mad at Trump expressed that anger at Trump. You cannot there's nowhere to protest Trump right now. Like I guess you could go to the White House or something, but there are opportunities, you know, every day, a cyber truck, right or whatever to express your displeasure. And like, Musk has made this choice. You know, we talked about it on this podcast, and Bears have been worried about this for years, that he was going to polarize the brand. And I think it would have been less of an issue if Trump had lost the election. But Trump did not lose the election. It also would have been less of an issue if Musk had not taken a job within the Trump administration, It would have been less of an issue if he had taken a less controversial job in the administration. But he has run headlong into this controversy and the electorate is reacting as you'd expect.

Dana, one of those bulls that Esha had mentioned earlier. Dan Ives at Webbush called this a moment of truth for Musk and Tesla, and in that Fox Business interview yesterday, when asked about how he was running Tesla and his other companies, his response was with great difficulty. Well, I guess I wonder is he even running them at all? And given what it's going through, that can't cause or given there's a whole lot of confidence as they watch the stock crater.

Dana, one of those bulls that Esha had mentioned earlier. Dan Ives at Webbush called this a moment of truth for Musk and Tesla, and in that Fox Business interview yesterday, when asked about how he was running Tesla and his other companies, his response was with great difficulty. Well, I guess I wonder is he even running them at all? And given what it's going through, that can't cause or given there's a whole lot of confidence as they watch the stock crater.

Right and the board has been completely silent on Musk since the election. I mean they have not put out any kind of statement. There's no clear number two or COO. The bench is like not deep, like who runs the company day to day. It's like there's not like a Gwen shot well at Tesla. So yeah, no, I think it's I think it's been concerning. I'm going to be super curious to see what the proxy says this time around in terms of risk factor.

Right and the board has been completely silent on Musk since the election. I mean they have not put out any kind of statement. There's no clear number two or COO. The bench is like not deep, like who runs the company day to day. It's like there's not like a Gwen shot well at Tesla. So yeah, no, I think it's I think it's been concerning. I'm going to be super curious to see what the proxy says this time around in terms of risk factor.

Tell us more about that proxy. Remind us what exactly.

Tell us more about that proxy. Remind us what exactly.

That is, well, every year, like publicly traded companies file proxies about it basically lists out like what shareholder resolutions are going to be discussed at the shareholder meeting. It's a good way to look at how many pledge shares Elon Musk has and sometimes they lay out new risk factors. And you know a lot of times companies like they they hide stuff in the proxy. The proxy drops on like good Friday day that the market has closed. It's always really deep reading. I will be reading it. I'm just sort of curious to you to see about like Tesla's board. Remember Joe Gebbia, the Airbnb co founder who was on Tesla's board, is also working with Doge. So it's not just Elon who's Doge focused, it's like another board member as well.

That is, well, every year, like publicly traded companies file proxies about it basically lists out like what shareholder resolutions are going to be discussed at the shareholder meeting. It's a good way to look at how many pledge shares Elon Musk has and sometimes they lay out new risk factors. And you know a lot of times companies like they they hide stuff in the proxy. The proxy drops on like good Friday day that the market has closed. It's always really deep reading. I will be reading it. I'm just sort of curious to you to see about like Tesla's board. Remember Joe Gebbia, the Airbnb co founder who was on Tesla's board, is also working with Doge. So it's not just Elon who's Doge focused, it's like another board member as well.

Yeah. So Esha the Danna says she's seen this show, this movie many times, having covered must over the years. You've been covering Tessel for how long now?

Yeah. So Esha the Danna says she's seen this show, this movie many times, having covered must over the years. You've been covering Tessel for how long now?

Since twenty sixteen, twenty sixteen.

Since twenty sixteen, twenty sixteen.

For a while, yeah, decade basically two decades in Tesla right now, in dog years and doze years, forty fifty years easy. So I guess I just wonder if you also think, now this is just like a sell off we've seen before, stock's going to start ripping and bounce back soon. Or did the election and the boom and initially created and now the bust did it just fundamentally change the company and change the stock.

For a while, yeah, decade basically two decades in Tesla right now, in dog years and doze years, forty fifty years easy. So I guess I just wonder if you also think, now this is just like a sell off we've seen before, stock's going to start ripping and bounce back soon. Or did the election and the boom and initially created and now the bust did it just fundamentally change the company and change the stock.

That's an interesting question.

That's an interesting question.

Tesla has always been a really volatile stock. It had always it's kind of in market parlance, it's almost always called the og memes stock in many ways, like it was a meme stock of cult stock even before that phenomenon.

Tesla has always been a really volatile stock. It had always it's kind of in market parlance, it's almost always called the og memes stock in many ways, like it was a meme stock of cult stock even before that phenomenon.

Really, on that point, do you hear estimates from analysts on what percent of the valuation is just means stock valuation which is hard to separate from the Musk phenomenon, and then what part is just hey, valuing this business right now and going forward. Do people have estimates?

Really, on that point, do you hear estimates from analysts on what percent of the valuation is just means stock valuation which is hard to separate from the Musk phenomenon, and then what part is just hey, valuing this business right now and going forward. Do people have estimates?

See, it's more of an art than science.

See, it's more of an art than science.

Of course, when you try to understand, you know, what part of it is the keymand risk or tied to Musk and musks antiques and stuff like that. However, there are estimates that there are zeros analysts on Wall Street who kind of try to understand if not how much is tied to musk, which is a really abstract concept, but at least try to understand how much of the valuation is really focused on the future or future growth or future growth potential.

Of course, when you try to understand, you know, what part of it is the keymand risk or tied to Musk and musks antiques and stuff like that. However, there are estimates that there are zeros analysts on Wall Street who kind of try to understand if not how much is tied to musk, which is a really abstract concept, but at least try to understand how much of the valuation is really focused on the future or future growth or future growth potential.

So right now the stock has moved so much.

So right now the stock has moved so much.

I haven't seen any very recent numbers, but around the time and it was like a trillion dollar valuation.

I haven't seen any very recent numbers, but around the time and it was like a trillion dollar valuation.

I have seen people say.

I have seen people say.

That anywhere between two hundred to four hundred billion dollars was for the auto business and the auto business future growth as well, and everything else was robotaxi and AI and like essentially the musk dream premium as we would call it.

That anywhere between two hundred to four hundred billion dollars was for the auto business and the auto business future growth as well, and everything else was robotaxi and AI and like essentially the musk dream premium as we would call it.

Yeah, I mean, if you look at Tesla's valuation compared to car companies that have like that sell a similar volume, it's like many times greater. It is like if Tesla were just a car company, like it would be worth way, way less. Even having fallen, you know, fifty percent over the last couple of months, it's always been like a bit of a leap of faith. And maybe I'm being a little bit generous here to say to value Tesla's robotaxi business or its optimist business in any way because there is no business there. It doesn't act actually exists, you know, Wall Street, like bid up the stock after the election. We sort of touched on this at times, but like there was no clear reason why. There is nothing Trump can do. He cannot wave a magic wand and give Tesla a robotex The funny.

Yeah, I mean, if you look at Tesla's valuation compared to car companies that have like that sell a similar volume, it's like many times greater. It is like if Tesla were just a car company, like it would be worth way, way less. Even having fallen, you know, fifty percent over the last couple of months, it's always been like a bit of a leap of faith. And maybe I'm being a little bit generous here to say to value Tesla's robotaxi business or its optimist business in any way because there is no business there. It doesn't act actually exists, you know, Wall Street, like bid up the stock after the election. We sort of touched on this at times, but like there was no clear reason why. There is nothing Trump can do. He cannot wave a magic wand and give Tesla a robotex The funny.

The funny thing is is that Esha had shared a couple of reports this morning from Bulls and both of them as they expressed jitters and concern, one of the things they both drew comfort from was the Robotaxi dream and Morgan Stanley they're waiting for the big Austin Robotaxi unveil in the summer. Maybe team say you've lost Dan Ives.

The funny thing is is that Esha had shared a couple of reports this morning from Bulls and both of them as they expressed jitters and concern, one of the things they both drew comfort from was the Robotaxi dream and Morgan Stanley they're waiting for the big Austin Robotaxi unveil in the summer. Maybe team say you've lost Dan Ives.

I mean Dan Ives is like the QAnon shaman to like Tesla fandom, Mike, I mean he is like as maybe I'm overstating it, but he is a megabull. Might be if he is a mildly concerned, that is a huge like that is like a wow.

I mean Dan Ives is like the QAnon shaman to like Tesla fandom, Mike, I mean he is like as maybe I'm overstating it, but he is a megabull. Might be if he is a mildly concerned, that is a huge like that is like a wow.

Well yeah, yeah, he called it right. I think that was in top of his report this morning. This is a moment of truth for Elon and us.

Well yeah, yeah, he called it right. I think that was in top of his report this morning. This is a moment of truth for Elon and us.

Yeah, I mean, Max is right.

Yeah, I mean, Max is right.

Don't have a very colorful out, Esha day.

Don't have a very colorful out, Esha day.

Thank you for joining us, Thank you, Max, Dana.

Thank you for joining us, Thank you, Max, Dana.

Glad to be here.

Glad to be here.

Thank you.

Thank you.

This episode was produced by Stacey Wong. Anna Massa Rakus is our editor, and Rayhan Harmanci our senior editor. Blake Maples handles engineering, and Dave Precell fact checks. Our supervising producer is Magnus Henrickson. The theme is written and performed by Takea Yasuzawa and Alex Sugi Eira. Brendan Francis Newnham is our executive producer, and Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. A big thanks to our supporters Joel Weber and Brad Stone. I'm David Papadopoulos. If you have a minute, rate and review our show, it'll help other listeners find us. See you next week.

This episode was produced by Stacey Wong. Anna Massa Rakus is our editor, and Rayhan Harmanci our senior editor. Blake Maples handles engineering, and Dave Precell fact checks. Our supervising producer is Magnus Henrickson. The theme is written and performed by Takea Yasuzawa and Alex Sugi Eira. Brendan Francis Newnham is our executive producer, and Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. A big thanks to our supporters Joel Weber and Brad Stone. I'm David Papadopoulos. If you have a minute, rate and review our show, it'll help other listeners find us. See you next week.

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