Welcome to Covid Time, a podcast series on markets and economies from DBS group research. I'm tom Lubeck, chief economist here at DBS. Welcome to our 95th episode,

Welcome to Covid Time, a podcast series on markets and economies from DBS group research. I'm tom Lubeck, chief economist here at DBS. Welcome to our 95th episode,

one of the most popular episodes in the history of Covid Time is episode 25. When we had World Gold Council shall have fun discuss various dimensions of gold mining, refining, production, demand, investment and trading. It was a fascinating podcast,

one of the most popular episodes in the history of Covid Time is episode 25. When we had World Gold Council shall have fun discuss various dimensions of gold mining, refining, production, demand, investment and trading. It was a fascinating podcast,

but it was more than two years ago and a lot has happened since then. Think about it inflation spikes war in Ukraine, organization of the U. S. Dollar monetary policy tightening and soaring interest rates, things that make people consider gold as a serious investment idea.

but it was more than two years ago and a lot has happened since then. Think about it inflation spikes war in Ukraine, organization of the U. S. Dollar monetary policy tightening and soaring interest rates, things that make people consider gold as a serious investment idea.

During that period, gold went from $1700 an ounce in early 21 to over $2,000 1 year ago when the crisis in Ukraine was breaking out and then it corrected down to 1615, October of last year and then headed up again, hitting 2000 just a couple of weeks ago at end January. So lots of up and down. But at the same time when you think about it in its totality, maybe not as volatile and not as repeated with downside as other investments like stocks and bonds.

During that period, gold went from $1700 an ounce in early 21 to over $2,000 1 year ago when the crisis in Ukraine was breaking out and then it corrected down to 1615, October of last year and then headed up again, hitting 2000 just a couple of weeks ago at end January. So lots of up and down. But at the same time when you think about it in its totality, maybe not as volatile and not as repeated with downside as other investments like stocks and bonds.

Well with so much going on, it is high time we bring xiao chi back whose current title at the World Gold Council is head of central bank relationship on a warm welcome back. Thank you so much. Thank you for the coffee. It's great to have you here. Likewise, cheers. Um

Well with so much going on, it is high time we bring xiao chi back whose current title at the World Gold Council is head of central bank relationship on a warm welcome back. Thank you so much. Thank you for the coffee. It's great to have you here. Likewise, cheers. Um

I'm gonna ask with some housekeeping questions. Some of them actually I asked you back in 2020 but I think they're so interesting and some of them have actually evolved in terms of recent events. It's worth going back there.

I'm gonna ask with some housekeeping questions. Some of them actually I asked you back in 2020 but I think they're so interesting and some of them have actually evolved in terms of recent events. It's worth going back there.

So let's start with your outfit. World Gold Council but it's a function. What is objective.

So let's start with your outfit. World Gold Council but it's a function. What is objective.

Sure. We are a market development organization for the gold industry. We have a basic mission to enhance and improve the gold market, to grow it, to educate people to make sure people are aware of how gold fits into a portfolio were owned by mining companies. But we don't focus on their specific operations and issues. We focus purely on making sure the gold market is better.

Sure. We are a market development organization for the gold industry. We have a basic mission to enhance and improve the gold market, to grow it, to educate people to make sure people are aware of how gold fits into a portfolio were owned by mining companies. But we don't focus on their specific operations and issues. We focus purely on making sure the gold market is better.

If I were to go to the World Gold Council website, what would I see

If I were to go to the World Gold Council website, what would I see

all sorts of information on gold data supply and demand statistics, price statistics and a bunch of different tools that we have available all for free, including tools on gold valuation, on the role of golden and portfolio as well as historic information on how much gold was bought by central banks for instance. And

all sorts of information on gold data supply and demand statistics, price statistics and a bunch of different tools that we have available all for free, including tools on gold valuation, on the role of golden and portfolio as well as historic information on how much gold was bought by central banks for instance. And

also a lot of thematic research,

also a lot of thematic research,

We're definitely gonna talk about that. Indeed, in terms of thematic research, I think you guys put out something called like 30 years of gold trend which I thought was very interesting and some of the data that you put out which is not exactly the same as the gold data that I would get from the IMF

We're definitely gonna talk about that. Indeed, in terms of thematic research, I think you guys put out something called like 30 years of gold trend which I thought was very interesting and some of the data that you put out which is not exactly the same as the gold data that I would get from the IMF

not exactly the same exact.

not exactly the same exact.

Thank you for being a patron of our website first of all and you're right to point out for plugging when I didn't have to plug 30 years of gold demand trends. Which is our one of our flagship research reports that we sent out every quarter with that actually we've created a special report that shows how the gold market has evolved in the last three decades and it's changed quite a bit

Thank you for being a patron of our website first of all and you're right to point out for plugging when I didn't have to plug 30 years of gold demand trends. Which is our one of our flagship research reports that we sent out every quarter with that actually we've created a special report that shows how the gold market has evolved in the last three decades and it's changed quite a bit

I can imagine and I want to actually pick your brain on that later on. But first very simple question. House cares is gold.

I can imagine and I want to actually pick your brain on that later on. But first very simple question. House cares is gold.

No question from you is ever that simple timor. But gold is relatively scarce. It's the I think the 75th most rare element in the earth's crust. It is one of the more one of the most rare precious metals of all the categories of precious metals. And according to the U. S. Geological Survey about 200,000 tons of gold has already been dug up from the earth's surface which is more than half of all the gold that exists on earth. But although 200,000 sounds like a lot of gold because gold is so

No question from you is ever that simple timor. But gold is relatively scarce. It's the I think the 75th most rare element in the earth's crust. It is one of the more one of the most rare precious metals of all the categories of precious metals. And according to the U. S. Geological Survey about 200,000 tons of gold has already been dug up from the earth's surface which is more than half of all the gold that exists on earth. But although 200,000 sounds like a lot of gold because gold is so

dense that only means it can fill about three swimming pools full of gold. So all the gold that exists on earth has already been mined can sit inside three swimming pools.

dense that only means it can fill about three swimming pools full of gold. So all the gold that exists on earth has already been mined can sit inside three swimming pools.

A pound of gold is not the same as a pound of bread. No not quite much smaller. Yes, exactly. Less tasty though. Yes. Well it's used in food products these days. Quite a bit

A pound of gold is not the same as a pound of bread. No not quite much smaller. Yes, exactly. Less tasty though. Yes. Well it's used in food products these days. Quite a bit

maybe the food products.

maybe the food products.

Yes, indeed, indeed, indeed.

Yes, indeed, indeed, indeed.

Um Let's talk a little bit about the supply site. Tell me about the key producers and suppliers out there.

Um Let's talk a little bit about the supply site. Tell me about the key producers and suppliers out there.

Sure. Well, you know, there's a variety of gold mining companies out there. There are lots of large scale multinational companies, I think in terms of the largest producers last year, Newmont, Barrick, Agnico, Anglogold, Ashanti Newcrest and many others, they're the largest, the larger international producers And of course all

Sure. Well, you know, there's a variety of gold mining companies out there. There are lots of large scale multinational companies, I think in terms of the largest producers last year, Newmont, Barrick, Agnico, Anglogold, Ashanti Newcrest and many others, they're the largest, the larger international producers And of course all

those companies are member companies as well. But you know, there's a wide ecosystem when it comes to gold supply. There also small scale producers in some countries as well who are, you know, a part of the gold supply chain to the large

those companies are member companies as well. But you know, there's a wide ecosystem when it comes to gold supply. There also small scale producers in some countries as well who are, you know, a part of the gold supply chain to the large

companies that you just mentioned. These are multinationals in the truest sense of the word,

companies that you just mentioned. These are multinationals in the truest sense of the word,

They operate in many different jurisdictions, headquarters might be one place, but their gold mining somewhere

They operate in many different jurisdictions, headquarters might be one place, but their gold mining somewhere

else. And we're talking gold mostly being mined in africa,

else. And we're talking gold mostly being mined in africa,

so it's actually quite widespread and that's one of the interesting facts about gold mining. The dispersion of gold around the world is quite diverse. So gold mining occurs on every continent except Antarctica. Um And actually the amount of gold mining by continent is, you know, pretty well balanced. There isn't like one continent that's a huge producer, another continent. That's a very small producer

so it's actually quite widespread and that's one of the interesting facts about gold mining. The dispersion of gold around the world is quite diverse. So gold mining occurs on every continent except Antarctica. Um And actually the amount of gold mining by continent is, you know, pretty well balanced. There isn't like one continent that's a huge producer, another continent. That's a very small producer

And that means that gold is not as susceptible to supply shocks as other commodities might be those that are focused on one region or even one country and that adds to sort of the steadiness of gold supply and contributes to gold's diverse price performance as well.

And that means that gold is not as susceptible to supply shocks as other commodities might be those that are focused on one region or even one country and that adds to sort of the steadiness of gold supply and contributes to gold's diverse price performance as well.

Right? So unlike the diamond, which is South Africa, I believe Canada Russia and then we start running out of places where diamond mining happens. Um What about refining?

Right? So unlike the diamond, which is South Africa, I believe Canada Russia and then we start running out of places where diamond mining happens. Um What about refining?

So refining is also spread out in a lot of different places. But there's a concept in the gold market called good delivery, which is a list of specifications that makes a gold bar acceptable for trade in the London market. Um, and that good delivery is a list that's defined by the London Bullion Markets Association

So refining is also spread out in a lot of different places. But there's a concept in the gold market called good delivery, which is a list of specifications that makes a gold bar acceptable for trade in the London market. Um, and that good delivery is a list that's defined by the London Bullion Markets Association

and only select Refiners are allowed to create good delivery bars. So if you want a list of Refiners, I'd consult the L. B. M. A list of good delivery Refiners.

and only select Refiners are allowed to create good delivery bars. So if you want a list of Refiners, I'd consult the L. B. M. A list of good delivery Refiners.

Are there a number of Refiners in this

Are there a number of Refiners in this

region? Yeah, they're quite a bit including one in our own backyard and jerome I think metal or so if you're based in Singapore, you want to go check out a refinery and there's one in jerome, not

region? Yeah, they're quite a bit including one in our own backyard and jerome I think metal or so if you're based in Singapore, you want to go check out a refinery and there's one in jerome, not

too far. How about that? I think

too far. How about that? I think

you pointed this out even two years ago. I bet you, most people were shocked to hear that and many will be shocked to hear at this time to right here in Singapore, how much is being produced each year and what's been the trend like?

you pointed this out even two years ago. I bet you, most people were shocked to hear that and many will be shocked to hear at this time to right here in Singapore, how much is being produced each year and what's been the trend like?

Sure, so on average, I think it's about 3000 tons or so being produced each year of newly mined gold in 2022 it was roughly 3600 tons. And it has been a growing trend over time. So since we released that 30 year special report, we looked at some of these trends

Sure, so on average, I think it's about 3000 tons or so being produced each year of newly mined gold in 2022 it was roughly 3600 tons. And it has been a growing trend over time. So since we released that 30 year special report, we looked at some of these trends

and I think in 1992 it was about 2200 tons of gold being newly mined every year. So the overall growth in gold supply has kind of matched the growth in gold demand maybe slightly less, but it has matched the growth in gold demand. And like I said, you know, gold is now being mined in more in more jurisdictions more countries and it's quite diverse in terms of geographic sourcing,

and I think in 1992 it was about 2200 tons of gold being newly mined every year. So the overall growth in gold supply has kind of matched the growth in gold demand maybe slightly less, but it has matched the growth in gold demand. And like I said, you know, gold is now being mined in more in more jurisdictions more countries and it's quite diverse in terms of geographic sourcing,

it's a fairly steady production profile if we look at the last couple of

it's a fairly steady production profile if we look at the last couple of

decades. Yeah, more or less it has grown of course because the gold market has grown from the low

decades. Yeah, more or less it has grown of course because the gold market has grown from the low

tools to the to

tools to the to

the high threes. But another source of gold supply is gold recycling because unlike other commodities, gold isn't destroyed when it's consumed. So you know, people can sell their old jewelry into the back into the supply chain

the high threes. But another source of gold supply is gold recycling because unlike other commodities, gold isn't destroyed when it's consumed. So you know, people can sell their old jewelry into the back into the supply chain

and the amount of recycling various year on year based on the gold price,

and the amount of recycling various year on year based on the gold price,

correctly understanding that electronics is a big source of gold and people try to scavenge gold from all the electronics products. True,

correctly understanding that electronics is a big source of gold and people try to scavenge gold from all the electronics products. True,

There's about $20 worth of gold in every iPhone. So it's worth, you know when electronics reenter the supply chain, people do try to remove the gold components to sell that on

There's about $20 worth of gold in every iPhone. So it's worth, you know when electronics reenter the supply chain, people do try to remove the gold components to sell that on

$20 in every iPhone. How about that?

$20 in every iPhone. How about that?

Um I want to talk about the demand side of gold. Of course that's the big story but not yet. A couple of more questions about the finance and commerce of gold. Let's talk with the gold market where and how is gold traded?

Um I want to talk about the demand side of gold. Of course that's the big story but not yet. A couple of more questions about the finance and commerce of gold. Let's talk with the gold market where and how is gold traded?

So gold traded around the world, it's actually one of the most liquid asset classes. I think a lot of people have a misconception that because gold is a physical asset that it's not a very liquid financial asset class but actually it's more liquid than some of the major european

So gold traded around the world, it's actually one of the most liquid asset classes. I think a lot of people have a misconception that because gold is a physical asset that it's not a very liquid financial asset class but actually it's more liquid than some of the major european

sovereign bond markets, more liquid than the dow jones industrial index for instance. And it's traded around the world. Um Like I might have mentioned, London is a major center for gold trading. So the over the counter market in London makes up about half of the daily trading volume for gold. But there are other major trading centers as well, the Comex market in new york for instance, the shanghai gold exchange and the shanghai futures exchange, they are all large components of the global gold trading ecosystem too.

sovereign bond markets, more liquid than the dow jones industrial index for instance. And it's traded around the world. Um Like I might have mentioned, London is a major center for gold trading. So the over the counter market in London makes up about half of the daily trading volume for gold. But there are other major trading centers as well, the Comex market in new york for instance, the shanghai gold exchange and the shanghai futures exchange, they are all large components of the global gold trading ecosystem too.

And in recent years we've seen a lot more gold E. T. S coming to the scene and they're exchange traded. So they're traded on equity markets across many different jurisdictions

And in recent years we've seen a lot more gold E. T. S coming to the scene and they're exchange traded. So they're traded on equity markets across many different jurisdictions

and beyond the spot futures and derivatives.

and beyond the spot futures and derivatives.

They exist as well, futures derivatives options. They all exist for the gold markets

They exist as well, futures derivatives options. They all exist for the gold markets

primarily in London or shanghai. There's like, you know, you can certainly

primarily in London or shanghai. There's like, you know, you can certainly

in London, I think some of the bullion banks their offer those services, there are bullion banks based in Singapore as well that might offer those services.

in London, I think some of the bullion banks their offer those services, there are bullion banks based in Singapore as well that might offer those services.

Um but I think it takes place all around the world

Um but I think it takes place all around the world

and Goldie TF, you just mentioned that let's talk a little more about it. Has it become a big thing, has it always been a big thing?

and Goldie TF, you just mentioned that let's talk a little more about it. Has it become a big thing, has it always been a big thing?

So Goldie TFS has been around for just around 20 years now and they truly changed how gold was being used as an investment because they made it much easier for all sorts of investors to access gold. They really democratize gold investment.

So Goldie TFS has been around for just around 20 years now and they truly changed how gold was being used as an investment because they made it much easier for all sorts of investors to access gold. They really democratize gold investment.

So instead of thinking, how do I, if I want to buy gold, how do I buy it? Do I have to go down to uh, you know, coin store, for instance, by gold coin. Now, you can just type it into your E trade account or whatever account and then you can add gold into your portfolio instantly.

So instead of thinking, how do I, if I want to buy gold, how do I buy it? Do I have to go down to uh, you know, coin store, for instance, by gold coin. Now, you can just type it into your E trade account or whatever account and then you can add gold into your portfolio instantly.

Is there a way for us to know whether the E. T. S are largely used by retail investors or is it largely by institutional.

Is there a way for us to know whether the E. T. S are largely used by retail investors or is it largely by institutional.

So us listed E. T. S publish the holders up to a certain threshold. But I'd say the retail level probably below that threshold. But you know, anecdotally I do,

So us listed E. T. S publish the holders up to a certain threshold. But I'd say the retail level probably below that threshold. But you know, anecdotally I do,

you know many retail investors that use Goldie Tfs to add gold exposure. And also many institutional investors use Goldie TFS as well. And just to get back to one of your earlier points, the E. T. F. Gold market has grown significantly in the last 20 years. The amount of gold that they've amassed totally is comparable to some of the large scale official sector holders, Central bank holders of gold. Now,

you know many retail investors that use Goldie Tfs to add gold exposure. And also many institutional investors use Goldie TFS as well. And just to get back to one of your earlier points, the E. T. F. Gold market has grown significantly in the last 20 years. The amount of gold that they've amassed totally is comparable to some of the large scale official sector holders, Central bank holders of gold. Now,

so to your point of gold being liquid gold being widely held immediately, then it becomes a useful collateral. I know from personal experience that in South Asia India Bangladesh, sri Lanka, gold lean is a big business loans around gold is a big business. Is this something a South Asia specific phenomenon or do we,

so to your point of gold being liquid gold being widely held immediately, then it becomes a useful collateral. I know from personal experience that in South Asia India Bangladesh, sri Lanka, gold lean is a big business loans around gold is a big business. Is this something a South Asia specific phenomenon or do we,

I

I

mean you can use it at a personal retail level. You see pawn shops where you can pledge the golden but not just at the personal level at the governmental level. There are countries that use gold as collateral to get access to us dollar liquidity during times of need. I think, you know, a couple years back during the financial crisis, there were countries that did just that,

mean you can use it at a personal retail level. You see pawn shops where you can pledge the golden but not just at the personal level at the governmental level. There are countries that use gold as collateral to get access to us dollar liquidity during times of need. I think, you know, a couple years back during the financial crisis, there were countries that did just that,

so it's not just, you know, pawning your gold necklace at a high street pawnshop also at the central bank level, they're doing the same thing,

so it's not just, you know, pawning your gold necklace at a high street pawnshop also at the central bank level, they're doing the same thing,

Right? So I think the 90s were very interesting examples India in the early 90s was in severe balance of payments stress and that was the biggest. So the last straw for India to use their gold reserves to borrow money. And of course I remember I was in grad school at that time in the 97-98 Asian financial crisis. The Korean households where donating pieces of gold jewelry and bars and so on to the government.

Right? So I think the 90s were very interesting examples India in the early 90s was in severe balance of payments stress and that was the biggest. So the last straw for India to use their gold reserves to borrow money. And of course I remember I was in grad school at that time in the 97-98 Asian financial crisis. The Korean households where donating pieces of gold jewelry and bars and so on to the government.

But India ultimately got the last laugh because they was able to buy back the IMF I think in 2009 2010 or so. And now actually the R. B. I. India's central bank has been buying gold almost every month for the last few years.

But India ultimately got the last laugh because they was able to buy back the IMF I think in 2009 2010 or so. And now actually the R. B. I. India's central bank has been buying gold almost every month for the last few years.

Actually there's another interesting anecdote with respect to the I. M. F. And gold. When the original quota allocation of the I. M. F. Was done. A certain amount of valuation was based on gold from East Central Bank's reserves. That did a big reevaluation exercise of that 30 40 years later. And it sort of unleashed a huge amount of resources for all these countries and in a way it added to global liquidity at a time because the

Actually there's another interesting anecdote with respect to the I. M. F. And gold. When the original quota allocation of the I. M. F. Was done. A certain amount of valuation was based on gold from East Central Bank's reserves. That did a big reevaluation exercise of that 30 40 years later. And it sort of unleashed a huge amount of resources for all these countries and in a way it added to global liquidity at a time because the

price has gone up so much

price has gone up so much

exactly exactly.

exactly exactly.

I want to stay with this trading investment aspect of gold when you look at asset managers around the world in a typical portfolio precious metals probably have a role to play. Not everywhere, but in many cases, what's your sense? You know, what do asset managers do in terms of weight towards precious metals, particularly

I want to stay with this trading investment aspect of gold when you look at asset managers around the world in a typical portfolio precious metals probably have a role to play. Not everywhere, but in many cases, what's your sense? You know, what do asset managers do in terms of weight towards precious metals, particularly

gold. There's no single answer to that. Of course. You know every portfolio is different based on the portfolio composition, risk tolerance, investment objectives etcetera.

gold. There's no single answer to that. Of course. You know every portfolio is different based on the portfolio composition, risk tolerance, investment objectives etcetera.

Um In our analysis we found that almost every portfolio at the institutional level and also maybe at the retail level can benefit from some exposure to gold. It can usually add uh it can increase risk adjusted returns for the most part because its behavior is so different than most other asset classes that investors are exposed to. As very little correlation to equities, correlation is very low to fixed income for instance.

Um In our analysis we found that almost every portfolio at the institutional level and also maybe at the retail level can benefit from some exposure to gold. It can usually add uh it can increase risk adjusted returns for the most part because its behavior is so different than most other asset classes that investors are exposed to. As very little correlation to equities, correlation is very low to fixed income for instance.

So it really adds a lot of diversification value but also potential upside. And that's something that I think people forget about. People usually think of gold is either downside protection or hedge against inflation. But actually during times when there's a bull market in the S. And P. Um the correlation of gold to risk assets becomes positive. So although it won't go up as much as you know, a risk asset would it's not saying that's going to go down during good periods as well. However, during a downturn though you do see gold safe haven characteristics kick in

So it really adds a lot of diversification value but also potential upside. And that's something that I think people forget about. People usually think of gold is either downside protection or hedge against inflation. But actually during times when there's a bull market in the S. And P. Um the correlation of gold to risk assets becomes positive. So although it won't go up as much as you know, a risk asset would it's not saying that's going to go down during good periods as well. However, during a downturn though you do see gold safe haven characteristics kick in

when the S. And P. Has a major pullback, then gold's correlation to the smp becomes negative. So you're able to capture a bit of the upside while also protecting yourself on the downside as well.

when the S. And P. Has a major pullback, then gold's correlation to the smp becomes negative. So you're able to capture a bit of the upside while also protecting yourself on the downside as well.

Absolutely. Earlier at the beginning of the podcast I talked about goals movement from 1,602,000 and so on. But those are US dollar prices. If somebody sitting in the emerging markets like India where the rupee on average depreciation of the US dollar by 57%

Absolutely. Earlier at the beginning of the podcast I talked about goals movement from 1,602,000 and so on. But those are US dollar prices. If somebody sitting in the emerging markets like India where the rupee on average depreciation of the US dollar by 57%

it's a very different picture. I mean it's like an almost constant upward sloping line in local currency terms. As far as gold holding is concerned, it's the dollar one that has greater degree of volatility. But even that as you point out is not as volatile as some other

it's a very different picture. I mean it's like an almost constant upward sloping line in local currency terms. As far as gold holding is concerned, it's the dollar one that has greater degree of volatility. But even that as you point out is not as volatile as some other

risk assets. That's a very good point. Not just E. Em currencies as well I think in sterling terms and gold has hit record highs recently, but specifically for E. M. Markets, I think gold has that special connection of being

risk assets. That's a very good point. Not just E. Em currencies as well I think in sterling terms and gold has hit record highs recently, but specifically for E. M. Markets, I think gold has that special connection of being

um something that is widely trusted by the average household in a market like Turkey, for instance where the lira goes through periods of, you know, a lot of volatility,

um something that is widely trusted by the average household in a market like Turkey, for instance where the lira goes through periods of, you know, a lot of volatility,

people turn to gold because it's something they trust. And it's actually translated into more gold usage in the formal financial system in Turkey as well,

people turn to gold because it's something they trust. And it's actually translated into more gold usage in the formal financial system in Turkey as well,

where else where else do we see huge gold holdings?

where else where else do we see huge gold holdings?

So India of course, you know, there's a lot of household gold as jewelry of course, but it can be pawned and used as a financial asset when needed. I think in Southeast Asia countries like Vietnam for instance, there was a lot of personal gold holding as well. And we

So India of course, you know, there's a lot of household gold as jewelry of course, but it can be pawned and used as a financial asset when needed. I think in Southeast Asia countries like Vietnam for instance, there was a lot of personal gold holding as well. And we

we definitely see gold's role in this as a way for many households at the very bottom rung of the socioeconomic ladder to get access to the financial system because they may not have access to formal banking, but they trust gold. And how do we marry these two factors together. It's something we're exploring a lot of the world Gold council in that how can gold play more of a role in financial inclusion in these emerging markets?

we definitely see gold's role in this as a way for many households at the very bottom rung of the socioeconomic ladder to get access to the financial system because they may not have access to formal banking, but they trust gold. And how do we marry these two factors together. It's something we're exploring a lot of the world Gold council in that how can gold play more of a role in financial inclusion in these emerging markets?

The chinese are also big purchases and

The chinese are also big purchases and

holders of gold. Absolutely china I think is the largest single consumer market for gold right now jewelry, but also in terms of investment bars and coins to their very big factor in the market.

holders of gold. Absolutely china I think is the largest single consumer market for gold right now jewelry, but also in terms of investment bars and coins to their very big factor in the market.

This advent of financial, technology driven wealth trading platforms that we have seen proliferate and we talked about the trade earlier are Reese

This advent of financial, technology driven wealth trading platforms that we have seen proliferate and we talked about the trade earlier are Reese

seeing Fintech entering the gold area. So instead of holding bunches physical gold, you can actually trade gold through various fintech

seeing Fintech entering the gold area. So instead of holding bunches physical gold, you can actually trade gold through various fintech

means there's a lot of startups that are trying to explore stable coins based on gold for instance startups that explore how to facilitate better or easier gold trading. So the entire ecosystem in the startup community, I think they're all looking at ways

means there's a lot of startups that are trying to explore stable coins based on gold for instance startups that explore how to facilitate better or easier gold trading. So the entire ecosystem in the startup community, I think they're all looking at ways

make gold part of that conversation as well.

make gold part of that conversation as well.

I saw a startup in South Asia recently where they have a little icon in your phone you touch it for even $5, you can start owning a fraction of a coin and they show it on the screen as you keep on adding. And because of the fintech pipe that they have you can use that to send

I saw a startup in South Asia recently where they have a little icon in your phone you touch it for even $5, you can start owning a fraction of a coin and they show it on the screen as you keep on adding. And because of the fintech pipe that they have you can use that to send

You know 1/100 of an ounce of gold to a kid for his birthday save or find ways to monetize it. Which I thought was very

You know 1/100 of an ounce of gold to a kid for his birthday save or find ways to monetize it. Which I thought was very

very interesting that in china to some of the major payments platforms there you can send grains of gold to each other, you can you can buy grains of gold so that's quite interesting defined grain. I don't know what the official definition in this but they showed me a picture, it's just a tiny little speck of

very interesting that in china to some of the major payments platforms there you can send grains of gold to each other, you can you can buy grains of gold so that's quite interesting defined grain. I don't know what the official definition in this but they showed me a picture, it's just a tiny little speck of

gold. Yeah there we go.

gold. Yeah there we go.

Um I checked out the website of yours and I saw a couple of things that I thought we should talk about. So tell us about the responsible gold mining principle.

Um I checked out the website of yours and I saw a couple of things that I thought we should talk about. So tell us about the responsible gold mining principle.

Sure. Um The world gold council is absolutely committed to making the gold market more transparent, more trustable uh and more accessible to the wider audience. And one of the ways we want to do that is to make sure that people can access gold and know that that gold was sourced in a responsible way.

Sure. Um The world gold council is absolutely committed to making the gold market more transparent, more trustable uh and more accessible to the wider audience. And one of the ways we want to do that is to make sure that people can access gold and know that that gold was sourced in a responsible way.

So the responsible gold mining principles is something we developed a few years back, it's actually a framework to know that all the gold that's entering the supply chain was sourced responsibly. And we actually ask all of our member companies to adopt the R. G. M. P. S as part of their membership process. Um it's been enacted for a few years now, I think we've gotten a lot of good traction with it and it's part of a larger initiative that we're calling gold to 47 to really

So the responsible gold mining principles is something we developed a few years back, it's actually a framework to know that all the gold that's entering the supply chain was sourced responsibly. And we actually ask all of our member companies to adopt the R. G. M. P. S as part of their membership process. Um it's been enacted for a few years now, I think we've gotten a lot of good traction with it and it's part of a larger initiative that we're calling gold to 47 to really

make sure the gold market is sustainable and and continues to be a major part of the financial discussion going forward.

make sure the gold market is sustainable and and continues to be a major part of the financial discussion going forward.

Very interesting. And is the notion of conflict free gold standard related to this, or is a subset of that? So

Very interesting. And is the notion of conflict free gold standard related to this, or is a subset of that? So

That was an older standard that we developed in, I think 2012, also in concert with the gold mining industry, where to use a crude analogy, it was kind of like the Kimberley

That was an older standard that we developed in, I think 2012, also in concert with the gold mining industry, where to use a crude analogy, it was kind of like the Kimberley

process for diamonds, where we wanted to ensure that the goal that you bought was not used to fuel conflict or unrest in in certain markets. And that also got, you know, a lot of signatories and kind of was the beginning of a lot of our work in standard setting and helping to create guidance for the industry.

process for diamonds, where we wanted to ensure that the goal that you bought was not used to fuel conflict or unrest in in certain markets. And that also got, you know, a lot of signatories and kind of was the beginning of a lot of our work in standard setting and helping to create guidance for the industry.

So when you say signatories, are you talking about corporate or you're talking about sovereign countries?

So when you say signatories, are you talking about corporate or you're talking about sovereign countries?

Corporates, gold mining companies.

Corporates, gold mining companies.

So as long as they are abiding by certain principles and standards, it's basically

So as long as they are abiding by certain principles and standards, it's basically

at the country level is going to be the case because their dominant players in the country. We

at the country level is going to be the case because their dominant players in the country. We

also work with governments and central banks on these topics to one interesting aspect of the central bank story on gold has been the emergence of a lot of domestic gold buying where the central bank acts as the largest or the soul off taker in many markets of domestic gold production.

also work with governments and central banks on these topics to one interesting aspect of the central bank story on gold has been the emergence of a lot of domestic gold buying where the central bank acts as the largest or the soul off taker in many markets of domestic gold production.

And therefore they're able to have outsized power in promoting regulation promoting responsible mining principles to their local gold mining industry because they're the only buyer, they are the only legal buyer in that case. How

And therefore they're able to have outsized power in promoting regulation promoting responsible mining principles to their local gold mining industry because they're the only buyer, they are the only legal buyer in that case. How

interesting is that? The case in South Africa,

interesting is that? The case in South Africa,

South Africa had such a program I think a couple of decades before it's been dormant since. But we've seen these type of gold buying programs active in the Philippines in Mongolia recently in many african latin american countries to they've been starting up these processes because it's beneficial for the central bank instead of paying for gold with us dollars. So exchanging one reserve asset for another, they can pay for golden and local currency. They can basically buy a reserve asset

South Africa had such a program I think a couple of decades before it's been dormant since. But we've seen these type of gold buying programs active in the Philippines in Mongolia recently in many african latin american countries to they've been starting up these processes because it's beneficial for the central bank instead of paying for gold with us dollars. So exchanging one reserve asset for another, they can pay for golden and local currency. They can basically buy a reserve asset

um and added to their reserves. And at the same time we see this as a conduit for us to use the central bank's power in the market to disseminate these best practices on E. S. G. On responsible

um and added to their reserves. And at the same time we see this as a conduit for us to use the central bank's power in the market to disseminate these best practices on E. S. G. On responsible

sourcing. That's fantastic. Okay I was not aware of this. Very good. We will talk about central bank purchases a little later and more

sourcing. That's fantastic. Okay I was not aware of this. Very good. We will talk about central bank purchases a little later and more

Islamic finance and gold. It's a bit of a niche area but I think you guys have been involved

Islamic finance and gold. It's a bit of a niche area but I think you guys have been involved

there. Yeah, we created the Sharia standard on gold I think in 2016 or so. And I think it's really helped to clarify what's permissible, what's usable about gold and Islamic context and what's great is that, you know, the Islamic finance sector is missing a true safe haven asset.

there. Yeah, we created the Sharia standard on gold I think in 2016 or so. And I think it's really helped to clarify what's permissible, what's usable about gold and Islamic context and what's great is that, you know, the Islamic finance sector is missing a true safe haven asset.

Most of the safe haven assets and conventional finance are interest bearing government bonds and then you

Most of the safe haven assets and conventional finance are interest bearing government bonds and then you

have to reverse structure to make sure our compliance exactly

have to reverse structure to make sure our compliance exactly

if they make it to cook. Um, and there are sovereign so cooks out there. But the issue is that countries like Malaysia for instance, that aren't no, not double or triple a the same safe haven assets that conventional finance has access to. But by making gold

if they make it to cook. Um, and there are sovereign so cooks out there. But the issue is that countries like Malaysia for instance, that aren't no, not double or triple a the same safe haven assets that conventional finance has access to. But by making gold

accessible to Islamic investors were basically opening, opening up a very large and liquid market for them to use as a safe haven or for other purposes. And I think introduced a new element of safety into the Islamic finance market because they didn't have such a safe haven before.

accessible to Islamic investors were basically opening, opening up a very large and liquid market for them to use as a safe haven or for other purposes. And I think introduced a new element of safety into the Islamic finance market because they didn't have such a safe haven before.

Right, actually going back to your website, I talked some of the work that you guys have done there is terrific. Alright, demand site. Sure. We've already touched on jewelry, a bit electronics. Central bank a bit. So put it all together for me,

Right, actually going back to your website, I talked some of the work that you guys have done there is terrific. Alright, demand site. Sure. We've already touched on jewelry, a bit electronics. Central bank a bit. So put it all together for me,

How has gold demand among all these different actors evolved over the last say decade or two.

How has gold demand among all these different actors evolved over the last say decade or two.

Sure, it's been actually a tremendous evolution leading to really structurally higher demand for gold in the last one or two decades.

Sure, it's been actually a tremendous evolution leading to really structurally higher demand for gold in the last one or two decades.

Um one major aspect as you said, is jewelry demand specifically coming from India and China, but because these two markets have grown so significantly, both in terms of GDP but also the purchasing power at the individual level. The I think they've tripled in terms of their their consumer gold demand between 1992 and 2022, according to our 30-year report. So they've been a major factor in generating higher levels of sustainable and transformative structural demand for gold.

Um one major aspect as you said, is jewelry demand specifically coming from India and China, but because these two markets have grown so significantly, both in terms of GDP but also the purchasing power at the individual level. The I think they've tripled in terms of their their consumer gold demand between 1992 and 2022, according to our 30-year report. So they've been a major factor in generating higher levels of sustainable and transformative structural demand for gold.

Another major change has been E. T. F. Like I said, um you know, before they were invented, the average investor probably even if they wanted to invest in gold, you know, there were certain stumbling blocks or certain impediments of them getting access, but the E. T. F. S have just made gold investing that much easier and they've also grown significantly in size. The third major

Another major change has been E. T. F. Like I said, um you know, before they were invented, the average investor probably even if they wanted to invest in gold, you know, there were certain stumbling blocks or certain impediments of them getting access, but the E. T. F. S have just made gold investing that much easier and they've also grown significantly in size. The third major

Change has been the shift of central banks from net sellers after the end of the Bretton Woods system in the 1970s to net buyers after the 2008 financial crisis. So basically for the last 13 years or so, central banks have been net buyers of gold with almost all of that buying coming coming from emerging-market central banks

Change has been the shift of central banks from net sellers after the end of the Bretton Woods system in the 1970s to net buyers after the 2008 financial crisis. So basically for the last 13 years or so, central banks have been net buyers of gold with almost all of that buying coming coming from emerging-market central banks

in the Middle Eastern and central banks and wealth funds, are they the biggest buyer or is it really the chinese and the indian central bank, the

in the Middle Eastern and central banks and wealth funds, are they the biggest buyer or is it really the chinese and the indian central bank, the

single largest central bank buyer has been Russia china has been number two. The Middle Eastern central banks have been active especially last year. We saw purchases coming from Egypt from Iraq from the U. A. E. From Qatar. So they're active as well. But it's actually been quite a broad phenomenon in terms of geographic diversity, diversity of economic type, diversity of the currency regime. The central bank runs,

single largest central bank buyer has been Russia china has been number two. The Middle Eastern central banks have been active especially last year. We saw purchases coming from Egypt from Iraq from the U. A. E. From Qatar. So they're active as well. But it's actually been quite a broad phenomenon in terms of geographic diversity, diversity of economic type, diversity of the currency regime. The central bank runs,

we've seen buying from the likes of Thailand from brazil um from from south Korea maybe about 10 years ago India as I mentioned, added gold. The central asian countries the stands, they've also been very active as well. Even this country Singapore, the M. A. S. Added gold I think in 2021 which was you know one of the rare occasions where a developed market added gold post 2008.

we've seen buying from the likes of Thailand from brazil um from from south Korea maybe about 10 years ago India as I mentioned, added gold. The central asian countries the stands, they've also been very active as well. Even this country Singapore, the M. A. S. Added gold I think in 2021 which was you know one of the rare occasions where a developed market added gold post 2008.

You and I had a conversation a few weeks ago where you said that if I were to just go to the website and look at central bank reserves data of which there is a breakdown for gold. I would not be capturing all the gold that was purchased last year the year before. So tell me a bit about your data generating process and why is it different from what the central banks are reporting.

You and I had a conversation a few weeks ago where you said that if I were to just go to the website and look at central bank reserves data of which there is a breakdown for gold. I would not be capturing all the gold that was purchased last year the year before. So tell me a bit about your data generating process and why is it different from what the central banks are reporting.

So this is a very good point because we actually reported the highest level of central bank buying ever in 2022, collectively, they bought 1100 tons on a net basis.

So this is a very good point because we actually reported the highest level of central bank buying ever in 2022, collectively, they bought 1100 tons on a net basis.

Um of which a big portion of our own calculation, it says it's from unreported buying. So there is the I. M. F. Official statistics, which central banks they populate every month, they update a spreadsheet set into the I. M. F. But it may not be the most accurate or real time picture of what's happening in official sector. Gold holdings. There are many

Um of which a big portion of our own calculation, it says it's from unreported buying. So there is the I. M. F. Official statistics, which central banks they populate every month, they update a spreadsheet set into the I. M. F. But it may not be the most accurate or real time picture of what's happening in official sector. Gold holdings. There are many

that report with a lag for various reasons. Other central banks have started stopped reporting altogether. Afghanistan has not reported since the Taliban takeover. Russia has stopped reporting since the beginning of the war in Ukraine. And they've even passed a new law now saying that their official sector gold holdings are state secrets. So I don't think we'll be hearing from them any time soon. But you know, there's a lot of reasons for countries to have either lack for those

that report with a lag for various reasons. Other central banks have started stopped reporting altogether. Afghanistan has not reported since the Taliban takeover. Russia has stopped reporting since the beginning of the war in Ukraine. And they've even passed a new law now saying that their official sector gold holdings are state secrets. So I don't think we'll be hearing from them any time soon. But you know, there's a lot of reasons for countries to have either lack for those

buyers, even if they're unreported, there's a cellar.

buyers, even if they're unreported, there's a cellar.

So yeah, there's a cellar. But probably coming from the otC market are coming from newly minted gold, newly mined gold, I should say. Um it's not necessarily one central bank selling to another or, you know, the investor community selling out in a central bank buying. It's

So yeah, there's a cellar. But probably coming from the otC market are coming from newly minted gold, newly mined gold, I should say. Um it's not necessarily one central bank selling to another or, you know, the investor community selling out in a central bank buying. It's

hard to track that information.

hard to track that information.

We don't know where every specific ounce, you know, they're buying is coming from, whether it's, you know, a newly mined gold or some existing gold stock. But overall the pictures that central banks have added

We don't know where every specific ounce, you know, they're buying is coming from, whether it's, you know, a newly mined gold or some existing gold stock. But overall the pictures that central banks have added

a significant amount of gold last

a significant amount of gold last

Year. And the number that you pointed out a little over 1000 tons. That would be much more than what the IMF data would suggest. Very interesting. Um so let's take stock of these two years since we talked about gold back in 2022. Now.

Year. And the number that you pointed out a little over 1000 tons. That would be much more than what the IMF data would suggest. Very interesting. Um so let's take stock of these two years since we talked about gold back in 2022. Now.

Um The pandemic, you were talking earlier about how when there is substantial risk aversion in the market, gold comes back to play. So how did it come back to play in the last couple of years? The

Um The pandemic, you were talking earlier about how when there is substantial risk aversion in the market, gold comes back to play. So how did it come back to play in the last couple of years? The

pandemic impacted the gold price. Of course the price hit a record high in 2020 in dollar terms the combination of monetary easing from central banks but also a lot of fiscal stimulus to support people during the pandemic that really made the gold price rally signify

pandemic impacted the gold price. Of course the price hit a record high in 2020 in dollar terms the combination of monetary easing from central banks but also a lot of fiscal stimulus to support people during the pandemic that really made the gold price rally signify

and saw a lot of inflows into gold E. T. F. But on the flip side there was a big drop in gold jewelry demand as jewelry shops closed, entire economies closed. Especially the largest economies for gold jewelry demand china and India they all had you know either long or short lockdowns. So that did impact the physical gold market. Although the price was elevated because of all the inflows into E. T. S. And financial investment. There are also some dislocations in the supply chain.

and saw a lot of inflows into gold E. T. F. But on the flip side there was a big drop in gold jewelry demand as jewelry shops closed, entire economies closed. Especially the largest economies for gold jewelry demand china and India they all had you know either long or short lockdowns. So that did impact the physical gold market. Although the price was elevated because of all the inflows into E. T. S. And financial investment. There are also some dislocations in the supply chain.

Um Not so much at the mine site per se, but really, you know, because global supply chains were disrupted, flights were more scarce. It caused greater disparities in the regional gold price is the price of gold in different regional markets. Um So that was overcome, that was fixed shortly thereafter, but it did cause you know, a bit of a disruption. Then

Um Not so much at the mine site per se, but really, you know, because global supply chains were disrupted, flights were more scarce. It caused greater disparities in the regional gold price is the price of gold in different regional markets. Um So that was overcome, that was fixed shortly thereafter, but it did cause you know, a bit of a disruption. Then

you run the central bank desk at World Gold Council. So obviously you have a lot of conversations with central bank asset managers. This phenomenon over the last few years which is independent of the pandemic, which is the weaponization of the U. S. Dollar. We saw the US seizing the Central bank of Afghanistan's assets and the U. S. And other areas. Now we have seen major seizures for the Russian Central bank's assets. So in your conversations, do you feel that central banks are

you run the central bank desk at World Gold Council. So obviously you have a lot of conversations with central bank asset managers. This phenomenon over the last few years which is independent of the pandemic, which is the weaponization of the U. S. Dollar. We saw the US seizing the Central bank of Afghanistan's assets and the U. S. And other areas. Now we have seen major seizures for the Russian Central bank's assets. So in your conversations, do you feel that central banks are

taking those developments into account in their gold buying strategy?

taking those developments into account in their gold buying strategy?

Yes. In no uncertain terms. Yes, they are looking at the impact of a changing political risk environment. Not to say that they believe that they will have the same type of direct confrontation in the west that Russia has had. But they do recognize that the calculate

Yes. In no uncertain terms. Yes, they are looking at the impact of a changing political risk environment. Not to say that they believe that they will have the same type of direct confrontation in the west that Russia has had. But they do recognize that the calculate

political risk is not quite what it was before. I think, you know, you mentioned Afghanistan. Um The case of that was the U. S. Didn't recognize the Taliban government as the rightful government of Afghanistan and said only the rightful government can access the Afghan central bank's reserves in the US. In the case of Russia though, it wasn't a case of saying, we don't recognize the Moscow government,

political risk is not quite what it was before. I think, you know, you mentioned Afghanistan. Um The case of that was the U. S. Didn't recognize the Taliban government as the rightful government of Afghanistan and said only the rightful government can access the Afghan central bank's reserves in the US. In the case of Russia though, it wasn't a case of saying, we don't recognize the Moscow government,

it's that we don't agree with your your policy decision to invade Ukraine, rightly or wrongly so. Right. But that is a new reason, a new rationale. So, whereas many central banks thought that their reserve assets that were jurisdictions overseas were basically sovereign assets that had sovereign immunity. The case has shown that they are not and that they can be frozen.

it's that we don't agree with your your policy decision to invade Ukraine, rightly or wrongly so. Right. But that is a new reason, a new rationale. So, whereas many central banks thought that their reserve assets that were jurisdictions overseas were basically sovereign assets that had sovereign immunity. The case has shown that they are not and that they can be frozen.

Yeah, if I were a central bank that is not in history, the core of the Western sort of, you know, circle of protection. You know, I would also no question about that earlier, you talked about gold rallying hard in 2020 around, you know, concerns about the pandemic zero rates and so on. Now. In late 2022 concerns around the pandemic was adding interest rates were soaring and then gold had a rally what's up?

Yeah, if I were a central bank that is not in history, the core of the Western sort of, you know, circle of protection. You know, I would also no question about that earlier, you talked about gold rallying hard in 2020 around, you know, concerns about the pandemic zero rates and so on. Now. In late 2022 concerns around the pandemic was adding interest rates were soaring and then gold had a rally what's up?

So we saw that at that period, specifically Central Western central banks, I think assessed that inflation had more or less peaked.

So we saw that at that period, specifically Central Western central banks, I think assessed that inflation had more or less peaked.

And they were saying that they're they're they're tightening cycles were coming to an end or we're going to moderate. So I think gold responded to that by rallying because I think that removed one of the big headwinds of gold, You know, interest rates, obviously with gold not being a coupon bearing asset are usually a headwind for gold also, at the same time you have to recall that nominal rates might have been rising, but real rates actually have not risen that much. So I think that was still a strong incentive for people to hold gold because real rates were still very low.

And they were saying that they're they're they're tightening cycles were coming to an end or we're going to moderate. So I think gold responded to that by rallying because I think that removed one of the big headwinds of gold, You know, interest rates, obviously with gold not being a coupon bearing asset are usually a headwind for gold also, at the same time you have to recall that nominal rates might have been rising, but real rates actually have not risen that much. So I think that was still a strong incentive for people to hold gold because real rates were still very low.

Also, there's the backdrop of what you're saying before, the geopolitical tensions, the war in Ukraine, this, this uncertainty brought by international conflict, I think that might have been some factor, certainly in the minds of maybe some of the central bank investors, but maybe institutional retail investors as well for them to consider upping their gold allocations.

Also, there's the backdrop of what you're saying before, the geopolitical tensions, the war in Ukraine, this, this uncertainty brought by international conflict, I think that might have been some factor, certainly in the minds of maybe some of the central bank investors, but maybe institutional retail investors as well for them to consider upping their gold allocations.

Right? Looking at the report on the 30 years of gold trend as well as the last couple of years, you know, experience with all these global volatility.

Right? Looking at the report on the 30 years of gold trend as well as the last couple of years, you know, experience with all these global volatility.

Am I correct in thinking that gold is a better hedge against your politics than inflation?

Am I correct in thinking that gold is a better hedge against your politics than inflation?

So, you know, we've done research on both. You know, golden gold is traditionally considered a hedge hedge against inflation, but we've actually seen that during periods of either stagflation or hyperinflation, where it performs well on the geopolitical side, I think we did an assessment where we looked at every episode of geopolitical risk in the last 30 years and we saw what gold's average performance was at risk day minus 92 risk day plus 90

So, you know, we've done research on both. You know, golden gold is traditionally considered a hedge hedge against inflation, but we've actually seen that during periods of either stagflation or hyperinflation, where it performs well on the geopolitical side, I think we did an assessment where we looked at every episode of geopolitical risk in the last 30 years and we saw what gold's average performance was at risk day minus 92 risk day plus 90

and it did overall have an impact like it would go up during periods of geopolitical risk, but usually it wouldn't be a sustained impact, it would stay, it would stay elevated for, you know, a few weeks after the risk incident happened and then it would taper off. Um unfortunately this this war in Ukraine has now gone on for a year. It's disrupted many aspects of life and I think it's really come it's really made policymakers question about is this type of threat going to broaden? Are we going to look at geopolitical conflicts in Asia now for instance.

and it did overall have an impact like it would go up during periods of geopolitical risk, but usually it wouldn't be a sustained impact, it would stay, it would stay elevated for, you know, a few weeks after the risk incident happened and then it would taper off. Um unfortunately this this war in Ukraine has now gone on for a year. It's disrupted many aspects of life and I think it's really come it's really made policymakers question about is this type of threat going to broaden? Are we going to look at geopolitical conflicts in Asia now for instance.

So I think that's added to a lot of concern and maybe created more incentive for people to consider

So I think that's added to a lot of concern and maybe created more incentive for people to consider

gold. I think I was remiss in not following up on an earlier question when we're talking about the responsible gold mining principle, could you elaborate on the dimension of that?

gold. I think I was remiss in not following up on an earlier question when we're talking about the responsible gold mining principle, could you elaborate on the dimension of that?

Sure. So there's 10 specific principles as part of the R G. M. P. S. I think there's either three or

Sure. So there's 10 specific principles as part of the R G. M. P. S. I think there's either three or

for each one each for environmental, one, for social, three or four each for environmental, social and governance. And they're basically very high level principles that state what these mining companies should be should be doing to make sure that they're compliant with these principles overall, then it gets into quite a lot more detail. Each principle has sub principles and clauses and things like that.

for each one each for environmental, one, for social, three or four each for environmental, social and governance. And they're basically very high level principles that state what these mining companies should be should be doing to make sure that they're compliant with these principles overall, then it gets into quite a lot more detail. Each principle has sub principles and clauses and things like that.

So, you know, I can't remember all of them off the top of my head, but it's quite comprehensive,

So, you know, I can't remember all of them off the top of my head, but it's quite comprehensive,

maybe just on the part. So put the smg as I mean just for my general knowledge is gold are very polluting activity. The mining and

maybe just on the part. So put the smg as I mean just for my general knowledge is gold are very polluting activity. The mining and

processing. So you know, there's a lot of work that's required to go into gold mining and our member companies, the ones that have signed on to the R. G. M. P. S have all stipulated to using the most advanced and the best practices for sourcing gold. But as I mentioned before, they're not the only members of the gold supply chain. So

processing. So you know, there's a lot of work that's required to go into gold mining and our member companies, the ones that have signed on to the R. G. M. P. S have all stipulated to using the most advanced and the best practices for sourcing gold. But as I mentioned before, they're not the only members of the gold supply chain. So

in in periods in past periods have been issues with using mercury for instance, and other harmful chemicals and that's something we really want to to stamp out.

in in periods in past periods have been issues with using mercury for instance, and other harmful chemicals and that's something we really want to to stamp out.

Um so part of the work we're doing with central banks for instance, is because they're buying usually from these small scale miners. They can therefore be a conduit of disseminating rules, regulations best practices to these small scale miners and saying if you use harmful products or if you source your gold irresponsibly, we won't buy from you. And guess what were the only buyer in this country?

Um so part of the work we're doing with central banks for instance, is because they're buying usually from these small scale miners. They can therefore be a conduit of disseminating rules, regulations best practices to these small scale miners and saying if you use harmful products or if you source your gold irresponsibly, we won't buy from you. And guess what were the only buyer in this country?

So if you don't shape up, no one's going to buy your product

So if you don't shape up, no one's going to buy your product

basically Good. A nice stick approach. Alright, shock. I such a treat to talk to you about the gold market and there are so many arcane aspects, but you make it sound so

basically Good. A nice stick approach. Alright, shock. I such a treat to talk to you about the gold market and there are so many arcane aspects, but you make it sound so

clear. I was a treat to talk to you tomorrow. Thank you.

clear. I was a treat to talk to you tomorrow. Thank you.

Thank you. And thanks to our listeners as well Kobe time was produced by ken del Bridge from Spy Studios daisy Sharma and violently

Thank you. And thanks to our listeners as well Kobe time was produced by ken del Bridge from Spy Studios daisy Sharma and violently

provided additional assistance. Copy time is for information only and does not constitute any investment advice. All 95 episodes of our podcast are available on Youtube, as well as on major podcast platforms, including Apple, google and Spotify. As for our research products, including our publications and webinars. You can find them all by googling DBS Research Library. Have a great day.

provided additional assistance. Copy time is for information only and does not constitute any investment advice. All 95 episodes of our podcast are available on Youtube, as well as on major podcast platforms, including Apple, google and Spotify. As for our research products, including our publications and webinars. You can find them all by googling DBS Research Library. Have a great day.