Pushkin. Hi, I'm Phil Donahue and I'm Marlo Thomas, and we're going on a series of double dates to find out what makes a marriage last. I don't often find myself hanging out with a pair of heavy hitting lawyers just for fun. But when Marlo and I had the chance to sit down with David and Mary boys, that's exactly what it was. They're an incredible couple. I mean, when David met Mary, she was the assistant director for the Domestic Policy Staff under President Jimmy Carter and David was chief counsel for Ted Kennedy. Well, you don't get more power couple than that, certainly not. When we say d down to chat with them, we were eager to know about their first meeting. Were they cautious lawyers or was the attraction immediate? It took me about twelve seconds. He wasn't married, always good he was really smart, he was very good looking, and he had a little money in his pocket. So and he was a nice guy would have liked so it took me twelve seconds. Took him a while, No, it didn't take me very long. But what did you think, did you? I thought she was really sexy, which at that stage was very high priority for me and very smart. Yeah, And I asked her out the next time I was in Washington. But we were negotiating at that time because Kennedy. We were working on airline deregulation, and Kennedy had a bill that was very radical. President Carter supported a bill that was more moderate, and so we had negotiating sessions with me and six or eight other people from the administration, different agencies, and then him and I said to my colleagues, we are not negotiating with this man. And they said, well why, I said, no offense, But he's a hundred times smarter than all of us put together. That was nineteen seventy and you get married, and that was a long time. You waited. Well, he'd been married twice, yes, And people were warning me, you know, this guy marries, but he doesn't really stay with people. And that was fine with me because I'd already been married. I sort of got that out of my system. But once I moved to New York, I thought, I'm not going to live in New York and not be married. So are we getting married or am I moving back to Washington. That's good. I don't remember quite that way. I mean, I don't remember I remember me asking you. I don't remember you bring it up to me, but you might have what gave you the optimism to get married a third time? Oh, I was just too much in love. And were you a little nervous about marrying a guy who'd been married twice before? Absolutely? And I figured, well, we won't have children, and it'll be fun as long as it lasts, and then I'll do something else. Why did you think you wouldn't have children? Because he already had four and I knew that if we had children then I'd be really in in this marriage. And how old were you this time? Thirty two? That's a good age to get married. It was a wonderful age. And the first child came when I was thirty three, and then the second when I was thirty five, and it was just good timing. I wasn't anxious to get married. I wasn't looking to get married. But you know, every time I saw him, I went week in the knees and I thought, that's a good sign. And it's still true. Yeah, that's a great sign. Well, I have a mental picture of your evenings together. First of all, you both have your computer, and I would think that in the evening hours you have a hard time not being on them. Here's a typical night. We go out to dinner a lot, and we go out just the two of us a lot when we can and have We call them dates. They are dates, and a typical dinner starts with sweetheart, did you see what the Supreme Court did this morning? Can you believe that? Or what do you think of this opinion? Our very first real date, we talked about the IBM anti trust case for two and a half hours. Well, I was fascinated. Well this was this was after after though, after she had appeared like ninety minutes late because there had been some crisis in the White House and she had had to stay and work on it, which she thought was entirely understandable because she was working for the President of United States. I thought, if it was an efficient president of the United States, he would have had his work done. But so it was. We did get to the ibmount of trust case, but only after she arrived and we'd went through what she'd been doing. That's true. Would you wait at ninety minutes I did. I didn't know she was She was definitely worth waiting for no cell phones in those days. Yeah, yeah, that's right, there was no. I mean because I was on the phone constantly, constantly, constantly. I was asked to get something done, and it was not something that could be done out of the White House, right. And it was a Friday night, and it was getting later and later and later, and I was just on two lines, three lines. It was. It was fun and wonderful and crazy, and I'd look at the watch and say, oh, I wonder if he's still there. That's amazing. It's like Phil gave a party in Chicago for me, for all the people in Chicago that he worked with him that he knew, and the movie critic and the TV critic and the newspaper people. I was very excited about it. And I was producing a movie add that I was also starring him, and I was supposed to begin the music score on Tuesday. The composer had a heart attack, and so my co producer said, you can't go away this weekend. We're going to have to write an entire score by Tuesday. So I called Phil and I say, um, oh, I'm you know, so thrilled that you're giving this party for me. But I have sort of bad news. I can't come. Hey, you're kidding right anyway, So he gave these two hundred people came to his house. He had a tent, he had a bandy at all these people, and there is no molo And I know that, and I really thought, you know, this is it. This guy's gonna like dump meet tomorrow. So these things happen to me. When you're dealing with people who are in responsible jobs, you can't you you can't walk out on the president, and I can't walk out on a movie that I have to deliver it. And these men who marry us or who stay in love with us through that, you know, they have to be the kind of menical handle of that who can take that. I think it's important to I mean, because I think you know, part of what you know makes relationships work is each of you being interested in the other and interested in what the other is doing and how to help the other. Right, you do talk about shop. We do. We talked about a lot of other things, but but we do talk about it because, um, you know, if if you've got a difficult case, difficult legal problem or factual problem, you know it's good to just be able to talk it through with somebody who's a knows what you're doing and be as smart, and the three is sort of thoughtful and and finally and finally is patient. You know, because the more you get into something that's really complicated, the deeper you get into it, the fewer and fewer people are interested in that level of detail. If I tell somebody like, um, I've got a maybe a very interesting case where I'm trying to sue health insurance for price fixing and I trust violations, that's sort of interesting to people because they want to improve the healthcare system and big companies getting together and conspiring is kind of interesting. But then you begin to get into the second and third, and fourth, and fifth and sixth level of detail, and you began talking about how many you know insurance there are in this county and Alabama and nobody, you know, unless it's your spouse, interested in that, And what do you have to prove under section two of the Clayton in order to win this? You understand, and I'm fascinated by it. And so we talk about law, we talk about politics, We talk a lot about history. We debate, you know, did eisenhowerd do the right thing here. It's fun. But when our children were growing up, they s times thought we were arguing because they didn't understand what we were talking about. We're talking intensely and you know, yeah, and well you were debating, yeah exactly, you know, because we don't. We don't entirely agree on everything. And that's good too. Yeah, were you married to a lawyer before? No, I was married to a college professor. And what were you ever married to a lawyer? Yes? Both my former wives of ours? Really huh, there's a there's a theme. I mean, I think I think it's important that you have different interests, but it's also important that you share some interests, right, and it's important that they understand what you're doing. So yeah, yeah, In many ways, you're chewing up time that might otherwise be devoted to differences that cause anger and yeah, right, yeah, and the words, it saves you from what other couples might devote to conflict. And that's true, although often we have friendly disagreements. You know, I think the court went too far on this or when Clarence Thomas said X, I didn't see any basis for that, and then he would say, well, you've got to look at it this way. So, yes, we avoid topics of conflict, but we have lively disagree. I have a lawyers fight. That's interesting. Well, I mean, I think I think actually one thing I hadn't really thought about this before, but but I think maybe one thing that helps in times of conflict is being lawyers because as lawyers you understand that there are different points of view. You're always dealing with somebody who has a different point of view, and and you understand that somebody who is your adversary is not your enemy. But I think, I think more important is it if you keep in context disputes, disagreements. If you get angry, and you keep that in the context of the overall relationship, you don't, you're not likely to powder go off or or stay angry very long because you understand that it's such a tiny part of your relationship, in such a small part of your time together. As a couple, They've had a lot of joy, but no shortage of tragedy either. David in particular, has had his share of heartbreak. I've lost two children. Oh yeah, my daughter had lung cancer. My son and this aneurism. She was forty eight, and he was fifty terrible. My job was to be there. There's nothing you can say. You're never the same when you lose a child. So I m. When we first heard that Jonathan was in a bad way, you said, I, I can't do this again, and I said you can and we will, we must and and we are. Ye. That's what marriage is kind of for, to be the cushion of life. Right. When my father died, I loved him so much and he was my best friend ever. You know, I was a real daddy's girl. And when he died, I just, I mean I just grieved something terrible. You know. I went to a shrink that I had gone to years before, and I said, I, this is like, is this sick that I'm crying so much? You know? What is? You know? He said, no, this is what life is. He said, And this is why some people don't commit to love, Yeah, because they know at the end somewhere something's going to happen. The loss is gonna happen. Right And Phil, God, Phil just brought me through it and had my mom come and live with us for three months. I mean, and she was a mess and I was a mess. He just entertained us everybody invited people. He took us out. I mean it was just we both my mother and I were both basket cases. But he really came through it, really, And that's the cushion. Oh, a good Irish man, a good Irish lad. Yeah, we'll have more. After a quick break, we're back to our conversation with David and Mary. Boys. They're both so smart. It's hard to believe that David was dropping out after high school. I mean, I don't know what would happened if my first wife had not gotten me go to college. But why didn't you want to go? I didn't like school. I'm dyslexic. As I got further along in school, reading was I didn't really like reading the law? How did you do it? I listened well. I can learn almost everything I wanted just listening in class to my professors. I'm still not a great reader, but I mean I didn't read at all until I was in third grade. Nothing. The most important thing is to understand that it is an input problem. It's not a processing problems. It is an ability to absorb information. It's not how well you think. I mean, there's no negative correlation between dyslexia and intelligence. Right, But all those facts that you have to gather in order to make a case, all the research I have to do, and I do have to do some reading. But as I said, I listened really well. I think it has taught me to organize my thoughts, to simplify things, see how the things are important, because you can't read everything. That's breathtaking. It really is. I bet you can't imagine it, right. I'm not hard wired that way, but I don't have his processing power. But it's fun to live with. So where are you on the jealousy meter? I'm sicilian, I'm very jealous. David has friends who are women, and they are friends, and I was jealous for a while, but then I put that away. I said, how did you deal with it? I said, you know what, if he wanted to be with him, he'd be with him. He's left two wives, he knows how to do it. He doesn't want to be here, He'll just go off. So why am I thinking about this? I figured we off and had his former wives or one of them come on vacations because they're grandchildren and children were there, and he asked me, once, do you mind if Carol comes on the Christmas trip, I thought his first wife, and I thought, why would I mind? Because her four children who were still growing up and then grandchildren were on those trips, and you're spending a week in the Caribbean. How can I say grandmother can't be there. So I said him myself, if he wanted to be with her, he would be with her. So yeah, bring her on. And I really meant that. And it's been good, and it's good for the children. Yeah, I'm sure it is, but I'm not jealous of them at all. His second wife is a friend of mine. Yeah. When I met her, I sort of gasped and thought, that's me ten years older. That's how this works. Okay, you know, it'll be fun while it last. Turns out it did last. One of the things I think that we've learned from a lot of these couples is that people a change things about themselves in order to accommodate another person. Well. Well, I mean, for example, she wanted to tear down my house, and that seemed to me at the time to be a really bad idea, because I thought it was a perfectly good house, a ranch style, hideous of rubbish. It was. It was a nicer house than I'd ever lived in my life until then, and I thought it was I thought it was perfectly good. Now I eventually understood that building another house was more important to her than keeping the house that we had was to me. And once I understood that, I was perfectly happy to tear down the house and build a new one. And as in so many things, she was right, because this is a much nicer house, and I'm much happier here than I would have been if we hadn't torn down the durned the house and built this one. But you were able to not make that a power struggle and just and just say, Okay, this means more to her than to me. It does. And also and also you know, there are lots of things that I don't do so well, and a lot of things that I don't know so well that she knows better than I do and does better than I do. Each of us is very conscious of if there's something that's more important to the other than it is to us, that we just decide to do it the way the other one wants to. For example, one of the things that I did before we were married was I would go to Las Vegas often and when we got married. Um, Mary despised Las Vegas. She you know, I mean the first time we went, she pointed out that most of the men there were wearing more jewelry than she was. And um, I mean she there was almost nothing there that she really liked. But um, and then then she realized that I enjoyed going there, and um, and I'd like to gamble, and I liked the shows, and I liked and I liked the ambiance and um and so she um uh and not grudgingly. When you do something for somebody, don't do it grudgingly. Don't don't make them feel that you're doing them a favor. And she has sort of embraced going to Las Vegas. And I think, although she may tell you differently when the microphones are off and you're a private, but I think she actually enjoys going there. How often do you go? Probably three or four times a year, wow, to Vegas? See what I did? I used to I used to go six times a year. Wow. I used to go every other month, but but now about three or four times. I lost twenty dollars and I was depressed. I didn't have twenty dollars worth of fun. Yeah, right back when I didn't have a chance. Well what about you though, Well, here's what I did. I figured out, okay, this gee, I thought he was so intelligent. Here we are going to lost Vegas. Now. He never went crazy, you know, he never lost a lot of money. You know, he never gambled the house. Yeah. And I decided, all right, he likes to do this, I don't. We do stuff I like to do that he doesn't like to do. So we'll leave in it out. And I said, what can I do there that I like? I like to hit tennis balls. So we would go there and I would hire the pro and I'd spend the afternoon on the tennis court. And I was perfectly happy. Yeah, and I so I just decided, he likes to do this, We do stuff I like to do that he doesn't, and so I'll find a niche Yeah, and I did. I find. Now it's fun to go that's and the shows are good. That's I think I can never stamp good. Yeah. And so what are some of the things that he does for you that that he doesn't like to do what you like to do. I might be wrong about this, but when we first started taking bike trips as a vacation, right, a vacation. You're you know, you're grinding your way about. Yeah, that's Our first bike trip was twenty nine, nine years ago, and we've been doing them ever since. Really we do two or three a year. Wow. And it's perfectly clear that he does that. I think, you know, it's like me in Las Vegas. I think now kind of like it. I have come to sort of like it. Um, but um in the beginning the idea of um, I mean, you get it. These bike trips. You go for a week and you and you travel like forty fifty sometimes sixty miles a day, Oh my god, and get up early and um you so hey, I don't like to get up early, be I don't really dislike exercise, but not a high priority for me. I'm just fascinated that you do these bike trips. I'm gonna really. One of the nice things is that we're together the entire day, nothing else happening. You know, we can just ride together, talk and it's very peaceful. Yeah. There came a time when I said to you, whatever you want to do, I want to do wow, And I thought to myself, here you are. You're a lawyer. You're a feminist and you're saying to this man, whatever you want. And I thought, good grief, it's come to this. But a lot of things changed. It wasn't a negotiation anymore. The next day he became a nicer person who was and it became an upward spiral. I think that's kindness, and it changed everything. And I remember if, well, actually, whatever you want to Taiwan, because I really felt the same way. We decided. I don't know, ten years into our marriage, we've been bickering about unimportant things, and we just decided are we in or are we out married? Or aren't we? If we're married, let's make that a really good thing. And so when we disagree on stuff, and I think he has an eye with what's really important here, a great, loving marriage. So he's dead wrong on this issue, Who cares? I don't really, I don't have to win every argument. Is one of you more likely to be the peacemaker or oh me? Of course? No, I don't think either one of us. Yea, I would not say. I think we kind of trade around on that. I would say either one of us. I think that we're both pretty good. As I say at keeping things in context. I'm married to someone who is not your typical great lawyer. He is off the charts. I use that to my advantage. I don't resent that, you know, I learned stuff from him. I still are you, I respond, but you pretty much dazzle me with what you come up with, and I love it. That's Mary and David boys. I don't know how they could be more in tune with each other. It was so moving to see how they share each other's joys and sorrows and passions. That's what marriage is all about. Until next time, I'm filled down at you and I'm Marlo Thomas. I I don't need to be right right. I can tell myself I'm right. Double Day is a production of Pushkin Industries. The show was created by US and produced by Sarah Lily. Michael Bahari is associate producer. Musical adaptations of It Had to Be You by Stellwagon Sympinet. Marlo and I are executive producers, along with Mia Lobell and Letal Molad from Pushkin Special Thing Thanks to Jacob Weisberg, Malcolm Gladwell, Heather Faine, John Snars, Carly Migliori, Eric Sandler, Emily Rostek, Jason Gambrel, Paul Williams, and Bruce Klucker. If you like our show, please remember to share, rate, and review. Thanks for listening.

Pushkin. Hi, I'm Phil Donahue and I'm Marlo Thomas, and we're going on a series of double dates to find out what makes a marriage last. I don't often find myself hanging out with a pair of heavy hitting lawyers just for fun. But when Marlo and I had the chance to sit down with David and Mary boys, that's exactly what it was. They're an incredible couple. I mean, when David met Mary, she was the assistant director for the Domestic Policy Staff under President Jimmy Carter and David was chief counsel for Ted Kennedy. Well, you don't get more power couple than that, certainly not. When we say d down to chat with them, we were eager to know about their first meeting. Were they cautious lawyers or was the attraction immediate? It took me about twelve seconds. He wasn't married, always good he was really smart, he was very good looking, and he had a little money in his pocket. So and he was a nice guy would have liked so it took me twelve seconds. Took him a while, No, it didn't take me very long. But what did you think, did you? I thought she was really sexy, which at that stage was very high priority for me and very smart. Yeah, And I asked her out the next time I was in Washington. But we were negotiating at that time because Kennedy. We were working on airline deregulation, and Kennedy had a bill that was very radical. President Carter supported a bill that was more moderate, and so we had negotiating sessions with me and six or eight other people from the administration, different agencies, and then him and I said to my colleagues, we are not negotiating with this man. And they said, well why, I said, no offense, But he's a hundred times smarter than all of us put together. That was nineteen seventy and you get married, and that was a long time. You waited. Well, he'd been married twice, yes, And people were warning me, you know, this guy marries, but he doesn't really stay with people. And that was fine with me because I'd already been married. I sort of got that out of my system. But once I moved to New York, I thought, I'm not going to live in New York and not be married. So are we getting married or am I moving back to Washington. That's good. I don't remember quite that way. I mean, I don't remember I remember me asking you. I don't remember you bring it up to me, but you might have what gave you the optimism to get married a third time? Oh, I was just too much in love. And were you a little nervous about marrying a guy who'd been married twice before? Absolutely? And I figured, well, we won't have children, and it'll be fun as long as it lasts, and then I'll do something else. Why did you think you wouldn't have children? Because he already had four and I knew that if we had children then I'd be really in in this marriage. And how old were you this time? Thirty two? That's a good age to get married. It was a wonderful age. And the first child came when I was thirty three, and then the second when I was thirty five, and it was just good timing. I wasn't anxious to get married. I wasn't looking to get married. But you know, every time I saw him, I went week in the knees and I thought, that's a good sign. And it's still true. Yeah, that's a great sign. Well, I have a mental picture of your evenings together. First of all, you both have your computer, and I would think that in the evening hours you have a hard time not being on them. Here's a typical night. We go out to dinner a lot, and we go out just the two of us a lot when we can and have We call them dates. They are dates, and a typical dinner starts with sweetheart, did you see what the Supreme Court did this morning? Can you believe that? Or what do you think of this opinion? Our very first real date, we talked about the IBM anti trust case for two and a half hours. Well, I was fascinated. Well this was this was after after though, after she had appeared like ninety minutes late because there had been some crisis in the White House and she had had to stay and work on it, which she thought was entirely understandable because she was working for the President of United States. I thought, if it was an efficient president of the United States, he would have had his work done. But so it was. We did get to the ibmount of trust case, but only after she arrived and we'd went through what she'd been doing. That's true. Would you wait at ninety minutes I did. I didn't know she was She was definitely worth waiting for no cell phones in those days. Yeah, yeah, that's right, there was no. I mean because I was on the phone constantly, constantly, constantly. I was asked to get something done, and it was not something that could be done out of the White House, right. And it was a Friday night, and it was getting later and later and later, and I was just on two lines, three lines. It was. It was fun and wonderful and crazy, and I'd look at the watch and say, oh, I wonder if he's still there. That's amazing. It's like Phil gave a party in Chicago for me, for all the people in Chicago that he worked with him that he knew, and the movie critic and the TV critic and the newspaper people. I was very excited about it. And I was producing a movie add that I was also starring him, and I was supposed to begin the music score on Tuesday. The composer had a heart attack, and so my co producer said, you can't go away this weekend. We're going to have to write an entire score by Tuesday. So I called Phil and I say, um, oh, I'm you know, so thrilled that you're giving this party for me. But I have sort of bad news. I can't come. Hey, you're kidding right anyway, So he gave these two hundred people came to his house. He had a tent, he had a bandy at all these people, and there is no molo And I know that, and I really thought, you know, this is it. This guy's gonna like dump meet tomorrow. So these things happen to me. When you're dealing with people who are in responsible jobs, you can't you you can't walk out on the president, and I can't walk out on a movie that I have to deliver it. And these men who marry us or who stay in love with us through that, you know, they have to be the kind of menical handle of that who can take that. I think it's important to I mean, because I think you know, part of what you know makes relationships work is each of you being interested in the other and interested in what the other is doing and how to help the other. Right, you do talk about shop. We do. We talked about a lot of other things, but but we do talk about it because, um, you know, if if you've got a difficult case, difficult legal problem or factual problem, you know it's good to just be able to talk it through with somebody who's a knows what you're doing and be as smart, and the three is sort of thoughtful and and finally and finally is patient. You know, because the more you get into something that's really complicated, the deeper you get into it, the fewer and fewer people are interested in that level of detail. If I tell somebody like, um, I've got a maybe a very interesting case where I'm trying to sue health insurance for price fixing and I trust violations, that's sort of interesting to people because they want to improve the healthcare system and big companies getting together and conspiring is kind of interesting. But then you begin to get into the second and third, and fourth, and fifth and sixth level of detail, and you began talking about how many you know insurance there are in this county and Alabama and nobody, you know, unless it's your spouse, interested in that, And what do you have to prove under section two of the Clayton in order to win this? You understand, and I'm fascinated by it. And so we talk about law, we talk about politics, We talk a lot about history. We debate, you know, did eisenhowerd do the right thing here. It's fun. But when our children were growing up, they s times thought we were arguing because they didn't understand what we were talking about. We're talking intensely and you know, yeah, and well you were debating, yeah exactly, you know, because we don't. We don't entirely agree on everything. And that's good too. Yeah, were you married to a lawyer before? No, I was married to a college professor. And what were you ever married to a lawyer? Yes? Both my former wives of ours? Really huh, there's a there's a theme. I mean, I think I think it's important that you have different interests, but it's also important that you share some interests, right, and it's important that they understand what you're doing. So yeah, yeah, In many ways, you're chewing up time that might otherwise be devoted to differences that cause anger and yeah, right, yeah, and the words, it saves you from what other couples might devote to conflict. And that's true, although often we have friendly disagreements. You know, I think the court went too far on this or when Clarence Thomas said X, I didn't see any basis for that, and then he would say, well, you've got to look at it this way. So, yes, we avoid topics of conflict, but we have lively disagree. I have a lawyers fight. That's interesting. Well, I mean, I think I think actually one thing I hadn't really thought about this before, but but I think maybe one thing that helps in times of conflict is being lawyers because as lawyers you understand that there are different points of view. You're always dealing with somebody who has a different point of view, and and you understand that somebody who is your adversary is not your enemy. But I think, I think more important is it if you keep in context disputes, disagreements. If you get angry, and you keep that in the context of the overall relationship, you don't, you're not likely to powder go off or or stay angry very long because you understand that it's such a tiny part of your relationship, in such a small part of your time together. As a couple, They've had a lot of joy, but no shortage of tragedy either. David in particular, has had his share of heartbreak. I've lost two children. Oh yeah, my daughter had lung cancer. My son and this aneurism. She was forty eight, and he was fifty terrible. My job was to be there. There's nothing you can say. You're never the same when you lose a child. So I m. When we first heard that Jonathan was in a bad way, you said, I, I can't do this again, and I said you can and we will, we must and and we are. Ye. That's what marriage is kind of for, to be the cushion of life. Right. When my father died, I loved him so much and he was my best friend ever. You know, I was a real daddy's girl. And when he died, I just, I mean I just grieved something terrible. You know. I went to a shrink that I had gone to years before, and I said, I, this is like, is this sick that I'm crying so much? You know? What is? You know? He said, no, this is what life is. He said, And this is why some people don't commit to love, Yeah, because they know at the end somewhere something's going to happen. The loss is gonna happen. Right And Phil, God, Phil just brought me through it and had my mom come and live with us for three months. I mean, and she was a mess and I was a mess. He just entertained us everybody invited people. He took us out. I mean it was just we both my mother and I were both basket cases. But he really came through it, really, And that's the cushion. Oh, a good Irish man, a good Irish lad. Yeah, we'll have more. After a quick break, we're back to our conversation with David and Mary. Boys. They're both so smart. It's hard to believe that David was dropping out after high school. I mean, I don't know what would happened if my first wife had not gotten me go to college. But why didn't you want to go? I didn't like school. I'm dyslexic. As I got further along in school, reading was I didn't really like reading the law? How did you do it? I listened well. I can learn almost everything I wanted just listening in class to my professors. I'm still not a great reader, but I mean I didn't read at all until I was in third grade. Nothing. The most important thing is to understand that it is an input problem. It's not a processing problems. It is an ability to absorb information. It's not how well you think. I mean, there's no negative correlation between dyslexia and intelligence. Right, But all those facts that you have to gather in order to make a case, all the research I have to do, and I do have to do some reading. But as I said, I listened really well. I think it has taught me to organize my thoughts, to simplify things, see how the things are important, because you can't read everything. That's breathtaking. It really is. I bet you can't imagine it, right. I'm not hard wired that way, but I don't have his processing power. But it's fun to live with. So where are you on the jealousy meter? I'm sicilian, I'm very jealous. David has friends who are women, and they are friends, and I was jealous for a while, but then I put that away. I said, how did you deal with it? I said, you know what, if he wanted to be with him, he'd be with him. He's left two wives, he knows how to do it. He doesn't want to be here, He'll just go off. So why am I thinking about this? I figured we off and had his former wives or one of them come on vacations because they're grandchildren and children were there, and he asked me, once, do you mind if Carol comes on the Christmas trip, I thought his first wife, and I thought, why would I mind? Because her four children who were still growing up and then grandchildren were on those trips, and you're spending a week in the Caribbean. How can I say grandmother can't be there. So I said him myself, if he wanted to be with her, he would be with her. So yeah, bring her on. And I really meant that. And it's been good, and it's good for the children. Yeah, I'm sure it is, but I'm not jealous of them at all. His second wife is a friend of mine. Yeah. When I met her, I sort of gasped and thought, that's me ten years older. That's how this works. Okay, you know, it'll be fun while it last. Turns out it did last. One of the things I think that we've learned from a lot of these couples is that people a change things about themselves in order to accommodate another person. Well. Well, I mean, for example, she wanted to tear down my house, and that seemed to me at the time to be a really bad idea, because I thought it was a perfectly good house, a ranch style, hideous of rubbish. It was. It was a nicer house than I'd ever lived in my life until then, and I thought it was I thought it was perfectly good. Now I eventually understood that building another house was more important to her than keeping the house that we had was to me. And once I understood that, I was perfectly happy to tear down the house and build a new one. And as in so many things, she was right, because this is a much nicer house, and I'm much happier here than I would have been if we hadn't torn down the durned the house and built this one. But you were able to not make that a power struggle and just and just say, Okay, this means more to her than to me. It does. And also and also you know, there are lots of things that I don't do so well, and a lot of things that I don't know so well that she knows better than I do and does better than I do. Each of us is very conscious of if there's something that's more important to the other than it is to us, that we just decide to do it the way the other one wants to. For example, one of the things that I did before we were married was I would go to Las Vegas often and when we got married. Um, Mary despised Las Vegas. She you know, I mean the first time we went, she pointed out that most of the men there were wearing more jewelry than she was. And um, I mean she there was almost nothing there that she really liked. But um, and then then she realized that I enjoyed going there, and um, and I'd like to gamble, and I liked the shows, and I liked and I liked the ambiance and um and so she um uh and not grudgingly. When you do something for somebody, don't do it grudgingly. Don't don't make them feel that you're doing them a favor. And she has sort of embraced going to Las Vegas. And I think, although she may tell you differently when the microphones are off and you're a private, but I think she actually enjoys going there. How often do you go? Probably three or four times a year, wow, to Vegas? See what I did? I used to I used to go six times a year. Wow. I used to go every other month, but but now about three or four times. I lost twenty dollars and I was depressed. I didn't have twenty dollars worth of fun. Yeah, right back when I didn't have a chance. Well what about you though, Well, here's what I did. I figured out, okay, this gee, I thought he was so intelligent. Here we are going to lost Vegas. Now. He never went crazy, you know, he never lost a lot of money. You know, he never gambled the house. Yeah. And I decided, all right, he likes to do this, I don't. We do stuff I like to do that he doesn't like to do. So we'll leave in it out. And I said, what can I do there that I like? I like to hit tennis balls. So we would go there and I would hire the pro and I'd spend the afternoon on the tennis court. And I was perfectly happy. Yeah, and I so I just decided, he likes to do this, We do stuff I like to do that he doesn't, and so I'll find a niche Yeah, and I did. I find. Now it's fun to go that's and the shows are good. That's I think I can never stamp good. Yeah. And so what are some of the things that he does for you that that he doesn't like to do what you like to do. I might be wrong about this, but when we first started taking bike trips as a vacation, right, a vacation. You're you know, you're grinding your way about. Yeah, that's Our first bike trip was twenty nine, nine years ago, and we've been doing them ever since. Really we do two or three a year. Wow. And it's perfectly clear that he does that. I think, you know, it's like me in Las Vegas. I think now kind of like it. I have come to sort of like it. Um, but um in the beginning the idea of um, I mean, you get it. These bike trips. You go for a week and you and you travel like forty fifty sometimes sixty miles a day, Oh my god, and get up early and um you so hey, I don't like to get up early, be I don't really dislike exercise, but not a high priority for me. I'm just fascinated that you do these bike trips. I'm gonna really. One of the nice things is that we're together the entire day, nothing else happening. You know, we can just ride together, talk and it's very peaceful. Yeah. There came a time when I said to you, whatever you want to do, I want to do wow, And I thought to myself, here you are. You're a lawyer. You're a feminist and you're saying to this man, whatever you want. And I thought, good grief, it's come to this. But a lot of things changed. It wasn't a negotiation anymore. The next day he became a nicer person who was and it became an upward spiral. I think that's kindness, and it changed everything. And I remember if, well, actually, whatever you want to Taiwan, because I really felt the same way. We decided. I don't know, ten years into our marriage, we've been bickering about unimportant things, and we just decided are we in or are we out married? Or aren't we? If we're married, let's make that a really good thing. And so when we disagree on stuff, and I think he has an eye with what's really important here, a great, loving marriage. So he's dead wrong on this issue, Who cares? I don't really, I don't have to win every argument. Is one of you more likely to be the peacemaker or oh me? Of course? No, I don't think either one of us. Yea, I would not say. I think we kind of trade around on that. I would say either one of us. I think that we're both pretty good. As I say at keeping things in context. I'm married to someone who is not your typical great lawyer. He is off the charts. I use that to my advantage. I don't resent that, you know, I learned stuff from him. I still are you, I respond, but you pretty much dazzle me with what you come up with, and I love it. That's Mary and David boys. I don't know how they could be more in tune with each other. It was so moving to see how they share each other's joys and sorrows and passions. That's what marriage is all about. Until next time, I'm filled down at you and I'm Marlo Thomas. I I don't need to be right right. I can tell myself I'm right. Double Day is a production of Pushkin Industries. The show was created by US and produced by Sarah Lily. Michael Bahari is associate producer. Musical adaptations of It Had to Be You by Stellwagon Sympinet. Marlo and I are executive producers, along with Mia Lobell and Letal Molad from Pushkin Special Thing Thanks to Jacob Weisberg, Malcolm Gladwell, Heather Faine, John Snars, Carly Migliori, Eric Sandler, Emily Rostek, Jason Gambrel, Paul Williams, and Bruce Klucker. If you like our show, please remember to share, rate, and review. Thanks for listening.