Pushkin. Hi, I'm Phil Donahue and I'm Marlow Thomas, and we're going on a series of double dates to find out what makes a marriage last. It's hard to think of a couple who we've taken to our hearts more than actors Michael J. Fox and Tracy Pollen. They learned early on what most of us take a lot longer to realize that marriage is a day to day journey of love and grid. They lived just walking distance from us, so it was really disappointing that I still had the flu on the date we were scheduled to visit them. Marlow had to go at solo and they really miss seeing you. It's funny with a small world this is. It turns out that many years ago Michael and Tracy had rented the very same apartment that we had once rented, and now here we are all living on the same street. You know, on a good day, you could probably hit a golf ball onto their balcony. Well, actually that would take an iron. But beyond our neighborhood, we share a lot in common. I started by asking them about their dating before they met. I know, you dated a lot of interesting people, and you dated a lot I've reading about you. You had a lot of handsome, beautiful people in your lives, but you you clicked and so how did you know this was the right person? Well, it's interesting you say that. You know, when you're younger, you go out with a lot of people, but you kind of know instantly this isn't the right person. And so you're thinking in the back of your mind, you're thinking, this is fine. How do I get out of it? Right? And and then you meet somewhere in New y this is it's fun. I don't want to ever get out of this. And then there's a leap of faith at that point, also because you're so young. When I first met a shoe she sted actress from New York, and I was just like, like Prince of Hollywood, idiot, you clown and then um and and there's just such a dignity about her in a consideration of what was when I didn't consider anything, I mean, I just kind of jumped into situations and took over and I just started, Wow, it's poise. That's what she has poise. When you walked down the aisle, you were pretty sure that this was the right one. Was there anything one a little thing that you weren't quite sure about that you had to like figure out right. I do know that I was, you know, I had been in so many Broadway shows and done so many things like that, and I'd never had as much stage right as I had. Right before I walked down the aisle, I thought I was gonna pass out. I was so so nervous, and I just realized all of a sudden, this is a really big deal. You know, Oh my god, am I ready for this? I just think that general feeling of like what have I gotten myself into? And then I started to walk and it all fell away. And how old were you then? U twenty seven? And you feel so old at the time when you're at twenty, you know, when you're in your twenties. But now I look back at my kids and I go, oh, we were baby, just little toddlers. Your image is somewhat like mine, which is, you know, you're on top of it, and you're fun and you go you go out with Michael or Marlowe, You're gonna have a good time. They're just all you know. At some point you had to show this woman that you were taking into your life, that you weren't that way all the time. You know that you had to like let it out and say this is also who I am. Oh and that has nothing to do with your health. That has to do with you as a personality. So yeah, why I The thing with the health is poor things happen in really short amount of time, uh basing I married or someone was born, my father passed away, and and I diagnosed, and then and then and they drinking. So it's like five things. It's like the major who likes the huge massive changes and became became a different person, And it was a person had to become just to survive me and be successful going on in life. And and and it's great, it's great that I made those changes. Yeah, I needed to own my diagnosis, own what that meant to him from my family, and be prepared to do I needed to do that, make that okay. And and Tracy met me and and and helped me own way and got me through over the hurdles and um, so it was it was a big tea. I mean, it's a big test earlier on our marriage. Its bad. What adjustment did you make to to have another person in your life? Well, one thing that we did that. I don't think we wouldn't do anything different in our lives. I mean, I can't speak for you, but I would I wouldn't do any different in our lives. Other lives fantastically. But we had we had our son was born really early in our marriage. So we had a quick adjustment that we got married and then we were parents. So so that that accommodation I extended that there was this other persons and then so we were we were we were never really traditional New lu ads. We were parents within the first year of our marriage, right, So it was so it was a different kind of adjustment. It's a different kind of Um, you didn't have a girlfriend anymore. Now you have, yeah, a co parent. Also, when we first got married, um, Michael's life was like very large, and so I had to sort of find my place where there was so much space being taken up by not by him personally, because he's not like that personally, but he just had a lot going on. There were there was job after job after job, and we to walk down the street and I would call him mister Mayor because everybody would say hello, and I am Ike hy kind Mike. He just had this kind of persona that everybody wanted to talk to him or be with him. And so for me, it was sort of trying to figure out how to accommodate room for that big life but also maintain my own independence and what I did and um, and so that was sort of an adjustment. I would say, you're really great because because at the same time as you were finding that space and in my life, you found a new space for me. Like I didn't realize how how overwhelmed, how much input there was, and how much sensory overload I was dealing with until Tracy said to me, and it was one of the things that they had sealed the deal for me in terms of her being the person that I wanted to be with forever. She just said, until my orders just going to kill you. This is going to kill you. You don't have any room for yourself in your life. You don't have any room for relationships that are real, that are based on something other be in business. And I was just like, wow, that's right. And I started, all of a sudden started to crave privacy and crave moments to be alone, and crave places to go where no one would be there to greet us or give a special attention or sometimes actually that's a funny thing where you're talking about that. Michaelan so many people working for him and you know and yes man and agents and assistance, and so we would argue and he would say nobody else in my life says that to me. And I'm like, yeah, because you pay all of them, so of course I'm going to get fired. I'm the only person that is great it isn't worried about being fired. So that was right, Yeah, that's right. And um, what do you think that you get from each other that you can't get from anybody else? Like with me with Phil when I'm blue and I'm a pretty optimistic person, but when I'm blue, he's the only person that can do a reality check with me that I believe, you know what I mean, he pulls me up much my cheerleader. Is that for me too, because I get because I have the same thing I have this I'm supposed to be mister sunshine and mister optimism and times when you really you know, some stuff is just hard to deal with, whether it's health issues or over things. And and Tracey has always got the thing to say that it makes me looking in another way. And I can and I can take things and make them right size. That's a great thing to say. And what about you. I can get very involved in the personal relationships, you know, between friends or family members or and and I can really sort of get a little too um affected by that by arguments that I've had with someone or someone said saying to me. And the only person I ever want to talk to when I'm in a state like that or upset about something is Michael because he has so much perspective. The funniest thing to say, I've said to chasing him before is when you say, if they only knew, like you having a conflict with somebody, and you'd say if they only knew what, And I'd say, if Emily knew, they still wouldn't give a shit. That's true. Sometimes I'll get so kind of wrapped up in that that thinking, and I'll just say, you know what I'm gonna do. I'm going to call that person and I'm going to say this, this and that. And Michael always says, to what end? What do you want to gain from that? She's much better than I am. I mean, I say to what end? Because because I don't know how to have those conversations, Wene, but you really should have done that, and I should have done that. It's just like, let's just start over. Well, so how do you resolve problems? Then there's always a period of time. I have a tendency to want to come I can make it all okay. I've grown more likely to we have it to stream about something, to give it to a So when you say give it some air, you mean don't get into a confrontation about it. Don't do what I want to do it just keep coming in the room in five seconds and saying, oh, okay now. And I also find I see a lot of times the people that I know that have these such a constant. I think that we used to do it more kind of at the beginning of our relationship. But this idea that you have to hash through and discuss every single thing is really no great benefit because sometimes you just have to assume, you know what he said something schmucky made me feel bad. But he's a good person. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he didn't realize what he said hurt my feelings, and I think he does the same with me. So this whole thing like that I see my friends sometimes having to do is let's sit down and talk this through. Let's and then it's like they're up till three in the morning because they can't go to sleep until they figured it out. And we're just kind of look at each other. We go, that's fine, I know you didn't mean it. You know I didn't read it. Let's move on. So how long did it take you to get to that, because it's taken us about twenty years of our forty year marriage to be able to say, so, you're so halfway through, Yeah, got to it. So what about you guys? It was that a skill you had right away or that something definitely not a skill we had right away. But I think we actually learned it a lot from seeing other relationships kind of fall by the wayside, and I would just see that it just wasn't a healthy way of dealing with it, like celebrate the positive. You don't have to dwell on all of the negative things that ye when but kids just place it's a hugeal We perfect kids. They're so non judgmental and none demanding, and they just they just they're just enjoying life and we kind of look at them and say, what a great life. I mean, what can be wrong with It's beautiful what we've done. So it sounds to be like gratitude is something. The gratitude's huge gratitude is a great space for me to be in because because I I deal with this healthing and and what what keeps me balanced? His gratitude. It's like being in a place of acceptance. It's just like, if you accept something doesn't mean you're resigned to it. It just means you accepted in and you look at it and you're honest about it. And I think acceptance is so much a part of my life, and it's a part of marriage. And you had a lot of accepting to do when Michael got sick, right, I mean that was very very early in our marriage, and um, yeah, I didn't we didn't even think it was going to be I didn't go to the doctor because we didn't think it was going to be anything big. And the thing that was odd about that diagnosis was that when you get that diagnosis at such a young age, and he was like, had very very few symptoms, so you kind of have this big piece of news and then nothing really has changed. At that moment. In the day to day, you're sort of being told, now, everything's going to be the same, but come ten years, it's going to be. So it's it's a funny thing to, um to grapple with, especially as a young person and as a young married couple, because I and um, yeah, so and we had you know, we just had a very young child and um. So it was definitely something to process and something to to deal with. But at the same time, once we kind of dealt with, you know, that big kind of realization, our life stayed the same. It wasn't like all of a sudden he was, you know, not able to walk, or all of a sudden he wasn't able to participate in the same way that he'd been participating. So it was more kind of an idea on the head than it was an actual reality. Would you agree with that? Yeah, I mean I remember the moment that I told you that was I went to I had a goofy in dream like that said I had a muscle pole or something, and I just didn't think about I had it for a year and I didn't think about it that much. Uh, And and so I went to this neurologist and just to just to check it out because I'd been going to sort physical therapist sports therapist guy. And so that's why Tricy didn't go to the doctors with me, because I just went to It was like the saying a small issue as far as I was concerned, and then um, and then he gave me his diagnosis. So I came home, as I told her, and and and we just held each other and just just kind of like but like Trisy said, it was a strange thing because it was like a bus is coming. It's gonna hitt you one day. We don't know win right, but it's gonna comes gonna hit you. And and I was like, what do I do? Do I go to bed? I mean, do I do it? Like you? An ask her? And I mean that's nothing that changes, but you feel you brought a weight into the marriage. Like like my point of view was I brought this this thing, like like not not not that I didn't intentionally or whatever, but but but I feel responsibility for it. I feel like my elephant that I brought to the party and it was invited, and so how we accommodated it. We'll have more after a quick break. We're back tomorrow's conversation with Michael J. Fox and Tracy Pollen. When we left off, Michael had just told Tracy about his life changing diagnosis of Parkinson's. Did you ever worry that she might bail out on you? I worried that I might become bailable, that I might not do with it well, and and and and why I didn't. They didn't deal with it really well successfully. I didn't have a good approach to it. I mean I just kind of ignored it. And then I over medicated and wrongly medicated, and started drinking a little bit more than I had been, and and and and that'll last time about a year, year and a half. And then I started taking it serious. Man. But all that Tracy had had to deal with, and so I wasn't worried about her bailing on me. It was everybody me, like, this is my this is my thing. I have to I have to I haven't. I have to make this work within the marriage and within the family. I have to I find a way to to to not use something that separates me from my family, but something that connects me with my family. What about you, Tracy, did you ever have in the back of your mind, oh my god, I can't do this in terms of in the big picture. Definitely moments where it's just like I can't handle this. I can't, But I never thought I can't handle this today, So I'm out for good. I mean, that's just not how I live my life. It's not how I was raised. It's not you know, you love somebody, you deal with whatever it is they're dealing with, and their issues become your issues, and so you know, definitely there are struggles, but then they're also benefits and positive things that you know, so you just sort of have to take it all. You take the good with the bad. And so I never ever thought in the long run, I can't deal with In the days that you didn't think you could handle it, well, what did you do for yourself to get through that? You know, family for me is super important having just for everything like that in my life. Having I'm a very very independent person, and I need my time alone, and I need to exercise, and I need to spend time with my friends, and so I feel like as long as I'm able to carve out time for myself, especially when things feel overwhelming, and then I'm able to sort of regenerate a little bit and come back into a situation feeling stronger and more whole. My husband, one of my husbands, has five children, and one of his sons was doing dangerous things after one year of our marriage, and of course I did what you did. I just dug right in and did everything. And years later Phil said to me, boy said, you know, I thought you'd bail on me on that. I said, you did. No. No, I accepted it, you know, but there is that feeling that the other one might have. I was scared. I was scared to death because I never knew anything like that, and I would have awful dreams. Did you ever have terrible dreams? Or was that two personal? It's it's not that I can specifically remember, but I do feel like in terms of when you're dealing with something as a couple, either you're dealing with the death of a parent, or you're dealing with an illness, you're dealing with an issue with your kids, and those things that seem so insurmountable and difficult, once you've kind of gone through them together and gotten to the other end of it, it just makes you stronger. It makes your marriage, stronger the relationship, and you realize, okay, we handled that, we can handle the next thing. And you know, it just sort of gives you fortitude together as like a united and a path a path through. Right. Yeah, are there things you do physically to help? Michael? It's tough once you're transition. I'm I can't walk as well as dude. So I used to usually with my dog and walk through the park and go over to the Museum Natural History and going to the dog park there and walk back through the park and all of stuff. I can't do that anymore. I may be able to day in the future, I hope, but I can't right now. It's on the same way we used to go do stuff. So so uh now we're finding ways to to Like we learn a safari and I could be in the jeep a lot of the time, and that it's an allowance. It's change. Are you going on a safari? We did? We did? Yeah? We did less and and how did you do? Was it great? And the hont want? I don't want to go. At one point I just said, I don't know what this does for me because I can't do this stuff, and she said, send the jeep and look at the Melvans. I mean, have a good time. And he said, if one of it is animals start coming for us, I'm the one. Yeah, I didn't know. I haven't wonder that. I remember one by the watering home. It's sick, lamb and old. So I mean, Tracy has always encouraged me to get involved into and to not project, not to project where where I might be, you know. So I tend to take things on because if I'll just meet the day right and and and Tracy gives me that encouragement to just meet the day just when when we get there, and we'll deal with it. I think that's where. Did you enjoy it? Loved it? Yeah? It was amazing, fantastic. What would you pass on that you've learned as a couple. I would say, I guess three things. I'd say Number one, give each other the benefit of the doubt, not that this is the person you love and this person loves you, so just assume the best from them. Don't assume the worst, um, because it's easy to get sort of sucked into that. And I would say, make sure you carve out time to spend together even when you have your kids, and you know, to do to have your date nights and to have just that time together is so important. And at the same time, carve out time to have by yourself and um, because the time that you have by yourself informs the time that you have together. I think, I think you're not You're not trying to create a new situation for you, like a new like a new thing for you, Like this is a thing for both of you and and and it's gonna be a new thing. It's gonna be a different thing. It's gonna be You're not gonna your shocks may not end up in the same place where you used to put them. Or it's becoming a new thing. It's becoming a new phenomenon. And I enjoyed that, like I love that. I love it. It was a new world. Are you comfortable and have you always been comfortable with bringing up hard topics? You know? For me, it took me a while because I'm so independent and because I liked my image of being all powerful. It was very hard for me to start really bringing up things that hurt me and that it were hard for me, and it took a while. I had to trust Phil enough to be that vulnerable. Every time I have one thing that like because I again, I go along and get along, I have a good time. I would just do everymore. I'm happy for the ride. And people saying, you know, you have all these issues, and I said, and then there's worst issues. I mean, there's says that people would have pancreatic cancer. Yeah, they lost our kids are like, I mean, just the stuff that's horrible in this world. And and I'm doing okay, but everyone's while I hit a wall and I hit a place where I just was just I just need somebody getting underneath me and get me up over that wall. And and then she's always that person. She's always that person. It's it's every time, I mean, do you tell her though, yeah, you confide it, or she just noticed I'll say, I'll say, I'm just, I'm just I haven't got it to that. I'm just I feel I feel like I don't actually I get beyond this. And then then she'll say, you will mean just just today to say you feel this moment, but but you'll feel different tomorrow. And then it'll be a different set of facts, and new things will show up and and and and it'll change and then and it does. But but but but I never, I never, I never has state to do that. We don't look for trouble. We don't, we don't pick scabs. We don't we don't like go. I think some marriages, people will get your partner and say it's it's a vulnerability and they just can't help but go after that vulnerability and it just export or something. We don't do that. I think I'm similar to you and that it took a while for me to feel comfortable talking about sort of bigger issues. But what's what's interesting about it is that it's easier. It's easy for me to hear that to to you know, if Michael's coming to me with things that are difficult for him to share. And that's what kind of gives me the confidence and the assurance that it's okay to share as well as it is to receive. So if you had to say what's made it made your marriage last, I would say, just keep your sense of humor. It's everything. To keep each other laughing and laugh at each other's jokes. It's the key. Yeah. So, so, like like um, I was working at a book out because I was working out it was about optimism. And one day I really bothered I missed deadline after deadline, after the deadline, I was just we're bogged down. And Tracy said, what's the matter. And I said, I remember being finished just fucking booking an optimism and and she said, you know you just said I said, you're kidding me, right, It's fine, yeah, because he said, I'm never going to finish my book about optimism, not with that at after thirty years. This is hopefully this is your best friend in the world. And and and just like the first person I think I wanted to think of anything, my first most Tracy. I think, what would Tracy said, what would Oh Tracy, if you're into this, Uh, it's it's nice. MAT's Michael J. Fox and Tracy Pollam. I'm sorry I wasn't there. After I left and began to walk home, it took me by surprise that I started to cry. What I had been witnessed to was the grace of two people whose lives are braided together with love, commitment, and steel. It filled my heart. This is marriage. This is marriage. And after our many double dates only some of which we've shared this season, our biggest lesson turned out to be this. There is no one secret to a lasting marriage. No, there are a million secrets. So keep listening for them, and we'll be listening to I'm Filled Donahue and I'm Marlowe Thomas. Stay tuned for news about the second season of Double Date. Until then, you may hear preview of other Pushkin shows in this feed. Enjoy, and meanwhile, treat yourself to your own double date with other couples in your life. You'll be surprised how much you can learn. Wisher did. Double Date is a production of Pushkin Industries. The show was created by US and produced by Sarah Lilly. Michael Bahari is associate producer. Musical adaptations of It Had to Be You by Stellwagon, Simfinette, Marlo and I are executive producers, along with Mia Lobell and Letal Molad from Pushkin. Special thanks to Jacob Weisberg, Malcolm Gladwell, Heather Faine, John Snars, Carly Migliori, Eric Sandler, Emily Rostek, Jason Gambrel, Paul Williams, and Bruce Klucker. If you like our show, please remember to share, rate, and review. Thanks for listening.

Pushkin. Hi, I'm Phil Donahue and I'm Marlow Thomas, and we're going on a series of double dates to find out what makes a marriage last. It's hard to think of a couple who we've taken to our hearts more than actors Michael J. Fox and Tracy Pollen. They learned early on what most of us take a lot longer to realize that marriage is a day to day journey of love and grid. They lived just walking distance from us, so it was really disappointing that I still had the flu on the date we were scheduled to visit them. Marlow had to go at solo and they really miss seeing you. It's funny with a small world this is. It turns out that many years ago Michael and Tracy had rented the very same apartment that we had once rented, and now here we are all living on the same street. You know, on a good day, you could probably hit a golf ball onto their balcony. Well, actually that would take an iron. But beyond our neighborhood, we share a lot in common. I started by asking them about their dating before they met. I know, you dated a lot of interesting people, and you dated a lot I've reading about you. You had a lot of handsome, beautiful people in your lives, but you you clicked and so how did you know this was the right person? Well, it's interesting you say that. You know, when you're younger, you go out with a lot of people, but you kind of know instantly this isn't the right person. And so you're thinking in the back of your mind, you're thinking, this is fine. How do I get out of it? Right? And and then you meet somewhere in New y this is it's fun. I don't want to ever get out of this. And then there's a leap of faith at that point, also because you're so young. When I first met a shoe she sted actress from New York, and I was just like, like Prince of Hollywood, idiot, you clown and then um and and there's just such a dignity about her in a consideration of what was when I didn't consider anything, I mean, I just kind of jumped into situations and took over and I just started, Wow, it's poise. That's what she has poise. When you walked down the aisle, you were pretty sure that this was the right one. Was there anything one a little thing that you weren't quite sure about that you had to like figure out right. I do know that I was, you know, I had been in so many Broadway shows and done so many things like that, and I'd never had as much stage right as I had. Right before I walked down the aisle, I thought I was gonna pass out. I was so so nervous, and I just realized all of a sudden, this is a really big deal. You know, Oh my god, am I ready for this? I just think that general feeling of like what have I gotten myself into? And then I started to walk and it all fell away. And how old were you then? U twenty seven? And you feel so old at the time when you're at twenty, you know, when you're in your twenties. But now I look back at my kids and I go, oh, we were baby, just little toddlers. Your image is somewhat like mine, which is, you know, you're on top of it, and you're fun and you go you go out with Michael or Marlowe, You're gonna have a good time. They're just all you know. At some point you had to show this woman that you were taking into your life, that you weren't that way all the time. You know that you had to like let it out and say this is also who I am. Oh and that has nothing to do with your health. That has to do with you as a personality. So yeah, why I The thing with the health is poor things happen in really short amount of time, uh basing I married or someone was born, my father passed away, and and I diagnosed, and then and then and they drinking. So it's like five things. It's like the major who likes the huge massive changes and became became a different person, And it was a person had to become just to survive me and be successful going on in life. And and and it's great, it's great that I made those changes. Yeah, I needed to own my diagnosis, own what that meant to him from my family, and be prepared to do I needed to do that, make that okay. And and Tracy met me and and and helped me own way and got me through over the hurdles and um, so it was it was a big tea. I mean, it's a big test earlier on our marriage. Its bad. What adjustment did you make to to have another person in your life? Well, one thing that we did that. I don't think we wouldn't do anything different in our lives. I mean, I can't speak for you, but I would I wouldn't do any different in our lives. Other lives fantastically. But we had we had our son was born really early in our marriage. So we had a quick adjustment that we got married and then we were parents. So so that that accommodation I extended that there was this other persons and then so we were we were we were never really traditional New lu ads. We were parents within the first year of our marriage, right, So it was so it was a different kind of adjustment. It's a different kind of Um, you didn't have a girlfriend anymore. Now you have, yeah, a co parent. Also, when we first got married, um, Michael's life was like very large, and so I had to sort of find my place where there was so much space being taken up by not by him personally, because he's not like that personally, but he just had a lot going on. There were there was job after job after job, and we to walk down the street and I would call him mister Mayor because everybody would say hello, and I am Ike hy kind Mike. He just had this kind of persona that everybody wanted to talk to him or be with him. And so for me, it was sort of trying to figure out how to accommodate room for that big life but also maintain my own independence and what I did and um, and so that was sort of an adjustment. I would say, you're really great because because at the same time as you were finding that space and in my life, you found a new space for me. Like I didn't realize how how overwhelmed, how much input there was, and how much sensory overload I was dealing with until Tracy said to me, and it was one of the things that they had sealed the deal for me in terms of her being the person that I wanted to be with forever. She just said, until my orders just going to kill you. This is going to kill you. You don't have any room for yourself in your life. You don't have any room for relationships that are real, that are based on something other be in business. And I was just like, wow, that's right. And I started, all of a sudden started to crave privacy and crave moments to be alone, and crave places to go where no one would be there to greet us or give a special attention or sometimes actually that's a funny thing where you're talking about that. Michaelan so many people working for him and you know and yes man and agents and assistance, and so we would argue and he would say nobody else in my life says that to me. And I'm like, yeah, because you pay all of them, so of course I'm going to get fired. I'm the only person that is great it isn't worried about being fired. So that was right, Yeah, that's right. And um, what do you think that you get from each other that you can't get from anybody else? Like with me with Phil when I'm blue and I'm a pretty optimistic person, but when I'm blue, he's the only person that can do a reality check with me that I believe, you know what I mean, he pulls me up much my cheerleader. Is that for me too, because I get because I have the same thing I have this I'm supposed to be mister sunshine and mister optimism and times when you really you know, some stuff is just hard to deal with, whether it's health issues or over things. And and Tracey has always got the thing to say that it makes me looking in another way. And I can and I can take things and make them right size. That's a great thing to say. And what about you. I can get very involved in the personal relationships, you know, between friends or family members or and and I can really sort of get a little too um affected by that by arguments that I've had with someone or someone said saying to me. And the only person I ever want to talk to when I'm in a state like that or upset about something is Michael because he has so much perspective. The funniest thing to say, I've said to chasing him before is when you say, if they only knew, like you having a conflict with somebody, and you'd say if they only knew what, And I'd say, if Emily knew, they still wouldn't give a shit. That's true. Sometimes I'll get so kind of wrapped up in that that thinking, and I'll just say, you know what I'm gonna do. I'm going to call that person and I'm going to say this, this and that. And Michael always says, to what end? What do you want to gain from that? She's much better than I am. I mean, I say to what end? Because because I don't know how to have those conversations, Wene, but you really should have done that, and I should have done that. It's just like, let's just start over. Well, so how do you resolve problems? Then there's always a period of time. I have a tendency to want to come I can make it all okay. I've grown more likely to we have it to stream about something, to give it to a So when you say give it some air, you mean don't get into a confrontation about it. Don't do what I want to do it just keep coming in the room in five seconds and saying, oh, okay now. And I also find I see a lot of times the people that I know that have these such a constant. I think that we used to do it more kind of at the beginning of our relationship. But this idea that you have to hash through and discuss every single thing is really no great benefit because sometimes you just have to assume, you know what he said something schmucky made me feel bad. But he's a good person. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he didn't realize what he said hurt my feelings, and I think he does the same with me. So this whole thing like that I see my friends sometimes having to do is let's sit down and talk this through. Let's and then it's like they're up till three in the morning because they can't go to sleep until they figured it out. And we're just kind of look at each other. We go, that's fine, I know you didn't mean it. You know I didn't read it. Let's move on. So how long did it take you to get to that, because it's taken us about twenty years of our forty year marriage to be able to say, so, you're so halfway through, Yeah, got to it. So what about you guys? It was that a skill you had right away or that something definitely not a skill we had right away. But I think we actually learned it a lot from seeing other relationships kind of fall by the wayside, and I would just see that it just wasn't a healthy way of dealing with it, like celebrate the positive. You don't have to dwell on all of the negative things that ye when but kids just place it's a hugeal We perfect kids. They're so non judgmental and none demanding, and they just they just they're just enjoying life and we kind of look at them and say, what a great life. I mean, what can be wrong with It's beautiful what we've done. So it sounds to be like gratitude is something. The gratitude's huge gratitude is a great space for me to be in because because I I deal with this healthing and and what what keeps me balanced? His gratitude. It's like being in a place of acceptance. It's just like, if you accept something doesn't mean you're resigned to it. It just means you accepted in and you look at it and you're honest about it. And I think acceptance is so much a part of my life, and it's a part of marriage. And you had a lot of accepting to do when Michael got sick, right, I mean that was very very early in our marriage, and um, yeah, I didn't we didn't even think it was going to be I didn't go to the doctor because we didn't think it was going to be anything big. And the thing that was odd about that diagnosis was that when you get that diagnosis at such a young age, and he was like, had very very few symptoms, so you kind of have this big piece of news and then nothing really has changed. At that moment. In the day to day, you're sort of being told, now, everything's going to be the same, but come ten years, it's going to be. So it's it's a funny thing to, um to grapple with, especially as a young person and as a young married couple, because I and um, yeah, so and we had you know, we just had a very young child and um. So it was definitely something to process and something to to deal with. But at the same time, once we kind of dealt with, you know, that big kind of realization, our life stayed the same. It wasn't like all of a sudden he was, you know, not able to walk, or all of a sudden he wasn't able to participate in the same way that he'd been participating. So it was more kind of an idea on the head than it was an actual reality. Would you agree with that? Yeah, I mean I remember the moment that I told you that was I went to I had a goofy in dream like that said I had a muscle pole or something, and I just didn't think about I had it for a year and I didn't think about it that much. Uh, And and so I went to this neurologist and just to just to check it out because I'd been going to sort physical therapist sports therapist guy. And so that's why Tricy didn't go to the doctors with me, because I just went to It was like the saying a small issue as far as I was concerned, and then um, and then he gave me his diagnosis. So I came home, as I told her, and and and we just held each other and just just kind of like but like Trisy said, it was a strange thing because it was like a bus is coming. It's gonna hitt you one day. We don't know win right, but it's gonna comes gonna hit you. And and I was like, what do I do? Do I go to bed? I mean, do I do it? Like you? An ask her? And I mean that's nothing that changes, but you feel you brought a weight into the marriage. Like like my point of view was I brought this this thing, like like not not not that I didn't intentionally or whatever, but but but I feel responsibility for it. I feel like my elephant that I brought to the party and it was invited, and so how we accommodated it. We'll have more after a quick break. We're back tomorrow's conversation with Michael J. Fox and Tracy Pollen. When we left off, Michael had just told Tracy about his life changing diagnosis of Parkinson's. Did you ever worry that she might bail out on you? I worried that I might become bailable, that I might not do with it well, and and and and why I didn't. They didn't deal with it really well successfully. I didn't have a good approach to it. I mean I just kind of ignored it. And then I over medicated and wrongly medicated, and started drinking a little bit more than I had been, and and and and that'll last time about a year, year and a half. And then I started taking it serious. Man. But all that Tracy had had to deal with, and so I wasn't worried about her bailing on me. It was everybody me, like, this is my this is my thing. I have to I have to I haven't. I have to make this work within the marriage and within the family. I have to I find a way to to to not use something that separates me from my family, but something that connects me with my family. What about you, Tracy, did you ever have in the back of your mind, oh my god, I can't do this in terms of in the big picture. Definitely moments where it's just like I can't handle this. I can't, But I never thought I can't handle this today, So I'm out for good. I mean, that's just not how I live my life. It's not how I was raised. It's not you know, you love somebody, you deal with whatever it is they're dealing with, and their issues become your issues, and so you know, definitely there are struggles, but then they're also benefits and positive things that you know, so you just sort of have to take it all. You take the good with the bad. And so I never ever thought in the long run, I can't deal with In the days that you didn't think you could handle it, well, what did you do for yourself to get through that? You know, family for me is super important having just for everything like that in my life. Having I'm a very very independent person, and I need my time alone, and I need to exercise, and I need to spend time with my friends, and so I feel like as long as I'm able to carve out time for myself, especially when things feel overwhelming, and then I'm able to sort of regenerate a little bit and come back into a situation feeling stronger and more whole. My husband, one of my husbands, has five children, and one of his sons was doing dangerous things after one year of our marriage, and of course I did what you did. I just dug right in and did everything. And years later Phil said to me, boy said, you know, I thought you'd bail on me on that. I said, you did. No. No, I accepted it, you know, but there is that feeling that the other one might have. I was scared. I was scared to death because I never knew anything like that, and I would have awful dreams. Did you ever have terrible dreams? Or was that two personal? It's it's not that I can specifically remember, but I do feel like in terms of when you're dealing with something as a couple, either you're dealing with the death of a parent, or you're dealing with an illness, you're dealing with an issue with your kids, and those things that seem so insurmountable and difficult, once you've kind of gone through them together and gotten to the other end of it, it just makes you stronger. It makes your marriage, stronger the relationship, and you realize, okay, we handled that, we can handle the next thing. And you know, it just sort of gives you fortitude together as like a united and a path a path through. Right. Yeah, are there things you do physically to help? Michael? It's tough once you're transition. I'm I can't walk as well as dude. So I used to usually with my dog and walk through the park and go over to the Museum Natural History and going to the dog park there and walk back through the park and all of stuff. I can't do that anymore. I may be able to day in the future, I hope, but I can't right now. It's on the same way we used to go do stuff. So so uh now we're finding ways to to Like we learn a safari and I could be in the jeep a lot of the time, and that it's an allowance. It's change. Are you going on a safari? We did? We did? Yeah? We did less and and how did you do? Was it great? And the hont want? I don't want to go. At one point I just said, I don't know what this does for me because I can't do this stuff, and she said, send the jeep and look at the Melvans. I mean, have a good time. And he said, if one of it is animals start coming for us, I'm the one. Yeah, I didn't know. I haven't wonder that. I remember one by the watering home. It's sick, lamb and old. So I mean, Tracy has always encouraged me to get involved into and to not project, not to project where where I might be, you know. So I tend to take things on because if I'll just meet the day right and and and Tracy gives me that encouragement to just meet the day just when when we get there, and we'll deal with it. I think that's where. Did you enjoy it? Loved it? Yeah? It was amazing, fantastic. What would you pass on that you've learned as a couple. I would say, I guess three things. I'd say Number one, give each other the benefit of the doubt, not that this is the person you love and this person loves you, so just assume the best from them. Don't assume the worst, um, because it's easy to get sort of sucked into that. And I would say, make sure you carve out time to spend together even when you have your kids, and you know, to do to have your date nights and to have just that time together is so important. And at the same time, carve out time to have by yourself and um, because the time that you have by yourself informs the time that you have together. I think, I think you're not You're not trying to create a new situation for you, like a new like a new thing for you, Like this is a thing for both of you and and and it's gonna be a new thing. It's gonna be a different thing. It's gonna be You're not gonna your shocks may not end up in the same place where you used to put them. Or it's becoming a new thing. It's becoming a new phenomenon. And I enjoyed that, like I love that. I love it. It was a new world. Are you comfortable and have you always been comfortable with bringing up hard topics? You know? For me, it took me a while because I'm so independent and because I liked my image of being all powerful. It was very hard for me to start really bringing up things that hurt me and that it were hard for me, and it took a while. I had to trust Phil enough to be that vulnerable. Every time I have one thing that like because I again, I go along and get along, I have a good time. I would just do everymore. I'm happy for the ride. And people saying, you know, you have all these issues, and I said, and then there's worst issues. I mean, there's says that people would have pancreatic cancer. Yeah, they lost our kids are like, I mean, just the stuff that's horrible in this world. And and I'm doing okay, but everyone's while I hit a wall and I hit a place where I just was just I just need somebody getting underneath me and get me up over that wall. And and then she's always that person. She's always that person. It's it's every time, I mean, do you tell her though, yeah, you confide it, or she just noticed I'll say, I'll say, I'm just, I'm just I haven't got it to that. I'm just I feel I feel like I don't actually I get beyond this. And then then she'll say, you will mean just just today to say you feel this moment, but but you'll feel different tomorrow. And then it'll be a different set of facts, and new things will show up and and and and it'll change and then and it does. But but but but I never, I never, I never has state to do that. We don't look for trouble. We don't, we don't pick scabs. We don't we don't like go. I think some marriages, people will get your partner and say it's it's a vulnerability and they just can't help but go after that vulnerability and it just export or something. We don't do that. I think I'm similar to you and that it took a while for me to feel comfortable talking about sort of bigger issues. But what's what's interesting about it is that it's easier. It's easy for me to hear that to to you know, if Michael's coming to me with things that are difficult for him to share. And that's what kind of gives me the confidence and the assurance that it's okay to share as well as it is to receive. So if you had to say what's made it made your marriage last, I would say, just keep your sense of humor. It's everything. To keep each other laughing and laugh at each other's jokes. It's the key. Yeah. So, so, like like um, I was working at a book out because I was working out it was about optimism. And one day I really bothered I missed deadline after deadline, after the deadline, I was just we're bogged down. And Tracy said, what's the matter. And I said, I remember being finished just fucking booking an optimism and and she said, you know you just said I said, you're kidding me, right, It's fine, yeah, because he said, I'm never going to finish my book about optimism, not with that at after thirty years. This is hopefully this is your best friend in the world. And and and just like the first person I think I wanted to think of anything, my first most Tracy. I think, what would Tracy said, what would Oh Tracy, if you're into this, Uh, it's it's nice. MAT's Michael J. Fox and Tracy Pollam. I'm sorry I wasn't there. After I left and began to walk home, it took me by surprise that I started to cry. What I had been witnessed to was the grace of two people whose lives are braided together with love, commitment, and steel. It filled my heart. This is marriage. This is marriage. And after our many double dates only some of which we've shared this season, our biggest lesson turned out to be this. There is no one secret to a lasting marriage. No, there are a million secrets. So keep listening for them, and we'll be listening to I'm Filled Donahue and I'm Marlowe Thomas. Stay tuned for news about the second season of Double Date. Until then, you may hear preview of other Pushkin shows in this feed. Enjoy, and meanwhile, treat yourself to your own double date with other couples in your life. You'll be surprised how much you can learn. Wisher did. Double Date is a production of Pushkin Industries. The show was created by US and produced by Sarah Lilly. Michael Bahari is associate producer. Musical adaptations of It Had to Be You by Stellwagon, Simfinette, Marlo and I are executive producers, along with Mia Lobell and Letal Molad from Pushkin. Special thanks to Jacob Weisberg, Malcolm Gladwell, Heather Faine, John Snars, Carly Migliori, Eric Sandler, Emily Rostek, Jason Gambrel, Paul Williams, and Bruce Klucker. If you like our show, please remember to share, rate, and review. Thanks for listening.