I'm Shonda Rhymes and we're bringing the dominant Stories created about Shawn land Audio in partnership with the Dove Self Steam Project. I am exactly the way you are when you're in the feudal position, crying and you can't figure out why. I am slipping through the city, feeling lost and alone half the time, and and doing the best I can. Right. I relate to people who are just doing the best they can, and I would only like to have them think of me as the same way, because I really feel like we're all the same that way. Hey, everybody, I'm Jess Weener and this is dominant stories. Dominant stories are those stories that we tell ourselves about ourselves. They can be about our worth or our value, our body image, beauty. That could sound like I'm not good enough, I'm too old to start something new, I don't deserve this. When we don't challenge those stories, they and end up shaping the direction of our lives. They say that you often teach what you most need to learn, and in this case, I think that's true. I've been exploring and teaching around the concept of dominant stories for a while now because I have a lot of those voices, and no matter what level of success I achieve or what my relationship statuses are, those voices are still there. So I'm trying to find a way to make peace with those voices, to unpack them. In one of the ways that I find that's really effective is just talking to people. These thoughts, these dominant stories, They really thrive in secrecy and in shame. So one of the greatest tools we have is the art of conversation, and these conversations on this show are going to be vulnerable, real and actionable. So in thinking about how to kick off this our very first episode, I knew that I wanted to be in conversation with one of the most talented, sweet, kind and dear friends that I have. I am talking about the one and the only Sarah Brella. You probably know and love. Sarah's incredible work in the world. Whether you've come to love her through Love Song, the hit song that she wrote in two thousand seven, She's done incredible work for Little Voice on Apple Plus TV, two Girls, five EVA on Peacock, and of course for all of my Broadway Officion autos out there. She wrote the music and lyrics for Waitress and a lot of what Sarah does inspires us and lifts us up. But there is a truth behind her process and her relationship to creativity that I knew that I wanted us to talk about a little bit more on this show. I think we really bonded talking about how creativity manifests in our life, how it is this gorgeous opportunity to know ourselves in the world, but also to be known by the world, being seen and heard and understood to something I'm passionate about. It is something she is passionate about. So I cannot wait for you to hear this conversation with Sarah Borellis. And of course, if you like the show, let you know what you think by subscribing by writing a review wherever you listen. I can't wait to dig in. Well, hi, friend, So as I was thinking about this conversation with you today and all of the things that I wonder about around making art and being creative and taking care of ourselves in the world, especially given the world that we're currently living in. You know, you and I had a chance to talk last year. Um so in twenty twenty, as worlds were shifting quite a bit and we were all sort of reckoning with what this means for our output in the world. And and it's almost like a little over a year later, and I was thinking about the role of creativity during this time and where it saves us and where it stalls us. And first I got so I was really thinking about going in the way way back machine too, little Sarah, and like, did you think about yourself as a creative kid? Like were you aware of your love of telling a story or being creative or like making things when you were a little girl? I wonder if I was, really I wonder if kids are aware of themselves that way, you know what I mean, Like, yeah, what is partially so magical about that age and why people love being around kids because there is it's like you haven't learned to be self conscious at all in those ways, or you're not measuring yourself against the rest of the world yet. Yeah. So I don't know if I had a great awareness of it, but when I look back, I clearly was someone who had a big imagination, not only just by myself, but like that was how my friends and I played. We made movies, We created these crazy stories. And I lived on five acres of redwood forest so it was I would playing with my cousins and we would leave in the morning and come home at night, and we were we had gone on grand adventures, and we had time traveled, and we had found dinosaur bones. But I don't remember ever feeling like I knew what that was really. I think, in context of anything I do now, that's what I was thinking about, is that moment of awareness that we get around the specialty of creativity, because I remember same like I would spend mostly playing with my sister and we would make up stories all day long. And but I do remember at some point when kids start to break off and people give you labels for the things that you're quote unquote good at, right when she becomes the athlete or he becomes the math superstar or whatever. I remember then I became height more heightened and aware of where I should fit in. Did it feel like that for you? I think it had to do with my singing voice. That was the first thing that was like sort of the marker, and what I got I got validated for, I suppose, and it's the thing that made me special. I think what was interesting in reflection on it now is that it was a really self conscious kid. I got teased a lot in elementary school. It was a really uncomfortable time of always feeling like it was a I went to Catholic school. I went it was a really small class, and it was almost like I couldn't trust that anyone was quite my friend because they would turn on and I was like, they'd be nice to me one minute, and then they turned on it. That's just sort of the nature of the little beasts that got that age. Yes, there was a lot of self consciousness and and a lot of self loathing and body image issues that started at that age for me. But then I went to public school in eighth grade and I sang it like a rally. I sang either the national anthem or I sang like in a talent show or something like that, and I got to feel shiny and it was about my voice, and they didn't have my whole history attached to me. So I went to public school and was like, Oh, I'm just a normal kid. That's just like going to school and nobody's making fun of me all day, and this is kind of amazing. But a few years later, in high school, the first time I ever shared an original composition that went really poorly, and so I think for me where there was a real break there, and it was like, oh, I'm I'm good as a singer, not good as as a writer. And so I would share the singing, but I wouldn't share the writing for many years. And it wasn't until I was halfway through college before I would ever play anything for anybody. Again, isn't that interesting? Like the stories we like? This is the whole point, right, the stories that we get told about ourselves that then become our own internal voice. Right, So you have a rough experience being received in this creative output, and then the immediate story is like, I'm not good at writing and I'm not going to show the world that. It's so funny. I was thinking about in fourth grade, my my light switch went on. I had our fifth grade actually, Mrs Stetson was my teacher, and I'll remember she gave me like an extracurricular assignment to to like write a story and I could read it during lunchtime to the kids. And I don't know why she picked me to do that or what that was about, but I remember, yeah, it was so sweet, and I did it, and I remember physically feeling the love of being in front of people when they connected to my story and they laughed, and I remember like electricity in my body. Even at at ten years old, I could remember that moment. And I'm curious, when you sang that national anthem or when you first used your voice, was there a somatic experience? Do you remember what happened for you and your body? Were you conscious of that? I mean, in my mind at this moment, I remember it as heat. I think I felt flushed, I felt excited. It almost felt a tiny bit dangerous too. It was like the thrill. The thrill of having to step up to that moment and meet the moment was intoxicating, and I think it's like, you know, you get bit by the bug. And I did community theater as well, which was in my little town. Such a tremendous gift and such a safe, safe space because as theater usually is, I can't say that it always always is for everyone, but there really is such a deep devotion to inclusivity and letting people like bring your weird with you kind of thing is like it's celebrated. So I really feel like I got to enjoy being in front of people and singing and getting I got the role as for And in Charlotte's Web and got to sing my solo and which was about Cork. And I love that, you know, it's an interesting journey when we're younger, I feel like we collect a lot of stories about ourselves, but we also for me and you know, we look out at the world to see where you fit. And I love that you talked about sort of the theater community as a place where a lot of folks who don't feel like they fit can fit and do fit. And then you become this band of storytellers, like you know, sharing all of that energy and that love and that passion. Because I think about you know you as a little girl being bullied in elementary school. I had the same I mean I was a girl with the last name of Wiener, so like I was pretty much done for in in school and picked on for image issues and and then it becomes fuel in a way. I think if you become aware of your journey and you can kind of challenge it and change it. But for me, that heat that you talk about, like when you say to rise to meet the moment, Sometimes when you're rising to meet the moment of a public performance, is there do you have to battle voices that come up that start telling you something like you don't deserve to be here, Like why is this happening? Like do those voices pop up? And do you still have those voices? Oh? Yeah, absolutely, There's a reason imposter syndrome runs rampant among even the most successful people. It's just and I imagine you're right to investigate. When these seeds get planted, I feel like, somehow, inside my own life I'm going to get tapped on the shoulder and be like you, you're not you. You stuck through for a little while about and not you gotta go. But yes, I mean every big event I can ever think of. It's a little bit like stepping on the roller coaster. And and it's like I bought this book one time because I deal with a lot of anxiety and depression. It is like the churning that will be with me forever and ever. Amen. I bought this book one time on tour called Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. And to be honest, I was like embarrassed to read it in public because I'm like, everyone knows what's going on inside. Like it's like the fact that I have this beautiful book by John Cabots in I'm a big John Cabots infant, and it's called Full Catastrophe Living, and I'm like, that's the book I'm reading. It's like, you're a mess. No secrets here, folks, but I bought this book. Feel the fear and do it anyway. It's like, the point is not to rid yourself of the voices. It's just like you let them be in the driver's seat or not. They're going to be there, they are going to come back. And so really cultivating that part of yourself that can hold space and know that two things can be true at the same time. There can be these wild assholes in my mind telling me I don't belong here, and I can still choose to belong here. Yes, I talk about have a like inviting those stories in to have a seat at the table, because for me, these dominant stories have like it's not binary. I don't think they ever go away. I think we just learned better ways to navigate through them. And why I wanted to, you know, chat with folks to who I think have achieved a kind of experience that I think a lot of people think oh well, once I get here, once I'm successful in my work, or once I'm successful in a relationship, or once I fill in the blank, then I won't have any of these feelings. And that's I think a disservice for for us on a journey, because I think everybody, like you said, and the most creative people in the world still struggle with imposter syndrome completely. I don't know if we can hear that enough. I think it's reassuring. I do too. I mean, I I think about you know, waitress is a huge part of my life, of course, and uh, I mean going through that entire process, I was like, I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to do this, and I'm just going to keep putting one ft in front of the other and trusting my collaborators and knowing that like I out of sheer will of moving forward, I will just keep going. There was no sense of like, yeah, man, I had this figured out. There just wasn't that. That was not a part of that process, And in some ways that was a large part of why that was such a rewarding process, to not to only stay in our safest spaces like um, I was in a show called I am in a show called Girls five EVA, and last season we were which I love so much. It's so good. Well, I just I loved making the show so much. It but I'm remembering. I had a monologue and it's a comedy. It's not like I was giving this deep speech, but I had this long monologue. My character was kind of losing her ship a little bit, and I was so nervous. I felt like I did don't belong there at all. I was so out of my body. And Renale Scholsberry, who is such a beautiful, beautiful soul and has become a very close friend, she was the one that had to give me the pep talk. She just like me, you listen to me, here, you belong here. You you take as much time as you need, you move from point A to point B, and we are all on this ride to support you in this moment. And don't you dare for one second apologize for how you got here or why you're here. I was like, Wow, we can gift that to each other in moments, but here I am, I'm in this show and I'm like, I don't belong here, Like it doesn't go away that incredible. It does, and the power of speaking to that voice, like or having a friend speak to that voice is so insanely awesome because sometimes we don't have the words. And she saw that, she saw through that, and she got to advocate for you. What a delight. For me, that's a deliciously dangerous part of creativity as well. I think it brings us to a brink if we're going to explore an area that is unchartered, and I think that's part of our hero Shiro's journey as creatives right is to enter into that space. But you know, perfection is the enemy of the good and I am definitely like had been the president of the perfection fan club growing up and still still struggle with that. And I'm curious what your relationship is with perfectionism. Oh gosh, it's un complicated. Yeah, it's delicate the balance between having high expectations or high standards or wanting something to be its best. And then it's really easy to get lost in sort of the ego of that too. For me, you're sort of looking for that. There's like a little bell that rings when it's truthful, when it speaks to something that has an element of vulnerability to it. It's mostly about honesty. Yeah, my my deepest intention is authenticity. But I think, you know, getting something right, I don't know. It's hard for me. It's hard in my relationship. Joe and I talked about that. My partner, Joe and I talked about that a lot. I have a real allergy to feeling like I did it wrong, or like I got something wrong, or I yeah, I don't have any good advice about that. I'm just I have to work on softening my reaction to that because I think it's of course we're going to get it wrong sometimes, but in terms of art, I think there is no right way ultimately agreed. I think it's also there's two ways I've been looking at tools for perfectionism. One is about inviting joy in because I so much forget to actually enjoy any of these processes. It's such a gift to be able to like move somebody, or create and collaborate with somebody, or like I try to focus on joy and tiny things so that I almost like refuel with that. And compassion has been my other tool because the perfectionism will like beat me to a pulp. I mean, I will go from feeling so grand to feeling so tiny. For me, that's like my my trauma response to not being perfect or not getting it right is like I immediately decimate myself so that somebody else can't decimate me. I mean, my gosh, we are we are experts at making ourselves feel small. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, I happened. It happened yesterday. I was with a good friend and I was just telling her about my I haven't been writing a lot and my this conversation about creativity. It's interesting it's coming up today because I haven't written a lot outside of for an assignment. It's become more of my of my process has been more assignment based. And that was that's a whole new chapter in my life, like doing things to respond to a prompt or to fit into this scene of a musical, or to be a part of this animated thing or whatever it is. And I think there's a part of me and my relationship to what I consider my muse that has suffered from that a little bit where there's like, oh, the plant needs a little watering. But I was telling her about this and she's like, can I just tell you you're being awfully hard on yourself, like you're starting at a Broadway show. You're about to start shooting this other thing. There's like all kinds of ship going on, working on another animated problem, and she's like, you're you're like getting upset with yourself for not doing more. And it was a nice light bulb moment where that compassionate voice has not been very present for me. I'm really good at making myself feel like I'm not doing enough. Yeah. Well, first of all, I love that you've got these beautiful voices around you who can flecked back to you amazing friends. Friendship is a massive bomb for being able to soothe these like kind of weary, perfectionistic voices. Well, it feels like a great time to take a little break. We're going to be right back, and we're back with this awesome conversation. The part that you said that's really like resonating for me is like the assignment based performing or like And I've also felt very similarly like I get so caught up in like work for my clients or in producing something for somebody else, that I forget how to pull for myself and just to explore and I heard you say your your muse. Can we talk about that relationship for a second, Like, how do you describe your muse or what are they? What does it sound like, what do you like? What's your relationship like with that? Because I'm so I'm so curious. I mean, songwriting for me is like worship. I am at the altar of the news, the gods of music, whatever that is. I've always felt like songwriting is my direct relationship with God. That's why I had a lot of trouble initially in finding even the sort of space or capacity for collaboration because it felt so private. It was like offensive to me that someone would as co writers get together. It's not it's not always a religious experience. It's just like sometimes they're just making things and that there's nothing wrong with that. For me, it was traumatic. It was just like you're doing surgery without anesthesia. Like I don't know, I don't know what you think you're doing, but this is not how you make music. And I since sort of learned the joys and the possibilities of collaboration. But for me, the relationship to the muses just I got the honor of being a vessel that for whatever reason when I came and I got my turn on the rock here, I got to have a voice and the capacity to tell stories with and that is isn't something I like gave to myself. It came in my suitcase. And so I feel, really I'm very reverent about honoring that. I definitely lived my life in parts of it where I have stuffed things into my physical vessels so that I wouldn't feel some of the gift that I was afraid of being, you know, rejected or ostracized by what I wanted to experience and express in the world. And so I numbed a lot of that out. And now I think, like when you talk about the collaboration with a partner, there's so much vulnerability to create in partnership. That's actually what I miss about the theater so much, was the vulnerability of all of us together and like the risk of sucking, you know, as a group. I miss sucking at dress rehearsal, like just it going so bad, you know what I mean, or like things going horribly awry and you're like, oh my god, we're never gonna make it. This is never gonna work. And then the you know, it happens the magic happens. The magic always happens. It's just incredible. It's the greatest team sport. It's so that's what I love about it too. It is a shared experience and it doesn't matter if you're the star of the show or whatever. It doesn't happen without each other up there just don't know, And it doesn't happen without a bump and it going awry, like it's not that perfect journey. And I like so the process like of shaping of editing. But I find like when I'm most scared or I'm most unsure that it's going to resonate is typically the thing that resonates the most with people, because I feel like it brings me to the brink of like my own comfort, Like then i know I'm onto something. When it scares me a little bit, it makes me think of there's a song from Waitress called She Used to Be Mine, and I was playing it in concert before it was ever a part of the show. I mean, i'd written it for the show and I was sharing with my audiences of like, I'm working on this project. This is a song from it. But I remember feeling incredibly self conscious because there's a lyric where she actually says the word pie where she's like she's all of this mixed up and baked in a beautiful pie. And as just a pop artist out on a concert circuit, I'm like playing those words and I'm like, am I embarrassed? Is that what's coming? But then get to the end of the song and it's like, clearly something about that song resonates for people in a really deep level. But I remember the first time I played it, I was like very self conscious about it, and it's just a reminder to keep just keep pushing into those places. It is so true. Well, you no remember I texted you that one day and I was like, I'm listening to all your music while I'm writing these new things that scared me, So that song was on repeat for me. That song, for me, it unlocks the little that little voice inside of me, which is another thing that you wrote about, right, So, and I kept listening to it because that's who I was trying to reach, the newer version of me. Um. I was going to ask you speaking of little voice, which is also an incredible I loved that story and and the music in that show when you were I keep going back to childhood just for that unfettered before you were in the industry time. But like, what were the stories that little Sarah wanted to tell, like high school, college, Like before you flip into industry mode when you weren't doing this professionally, did you have a were there stories that you wanted to tell? Evince, since you were a little person on this plan it. I think I was always enamored with the sort of finding your voice story even in films and television and stuff, like anything that had a young girl for me, which is who I identified the most closely with. Seeing a young girl find courage and strength, discovering the ability to sort of stand up for themselves was always something that really resonated. Like The Secret Garden was a story that I loved, and that was the first musical I ever saw, like a big musical. I saw it in Fan francisc Going for and the power of a little Girl because she's a she's a truth teller, even though she's a brat and she's a pain in the ass, but she's a drewth teller. Ultimately is what is happening and the magic that becomes unlocked because she is unwilling to give up on this path, and I think that that was something that and still very much resonates with me. Those are the stories I'm the most interested in telling. Gosh Friends same And actually I wonder sometimes if my desire because I always was very drawn to the underdog, the girl discovering against all odds how amazing she is in a world that didn't think she was. And I actually think a lot of that was a response to the bullying that I experienced as well when I was younger, because I would always fantasize when I was sitting in my classroom with kids that were being jerks. I've never said this out loud. This is going to be more defined by IM mis say it anyway, Because I love you. I would sit in this classroom and I would fantasize my celebrity crushes, which, by the way, at the time was I loved like sitcom stars like Ricky Schroeder, Kirk Cameron. He's canceled for me, but anyway, understand. But I would imagine the people that I love from TV coming into the classroom and being like, you're yes. I had the same fantasy these or they would like say to a mean girl, yeah, bitch, I love her, you know what I mean? Yes, I think now the difference in my life's work is I'm trying to rescue myself. I'm trying to come into that room myself and be like enough. And now those voices are not just from outside people. They became my internal voices. And that's a big part of my works journey is like, how do I have a conversation now where I can you know, advocate and love myself. I miss some of that purity in the journey of these stories. You too, Oh, it's so sweet to revisit like all this time because it's the same I think. When I really think about those fixations on love and even romance at such a young age, when you don't really have a deep understanding, it's about feeling special. You just want to feel seen and feel special and feel um chosen. I wanted to match totally, totally. I wanted to be somebody's special person. And I think I mean a lot of women girls who have grown up in a traditional societal upbringing around gender roles, like that's also a part that's been expressed for us, right, Like that was the way I derived value was by being chosen by somebody else, you know. And that's actually an interesting kind of question now around like the fame in the world that you're in and the the unlock that you get as a creative artist when you achieve a level of success and you and more people know you, more people choose you. I'm curious, like what that has felt like for you internally as you've climbed, Like how you've traversed the growth of fame and celebrity And do you even think about it like that? Sure, I mean I definitely think about it. I was a little older. I was in my eight twenties when I when my first record came out, and so thankfully I was a little more set in who I knew myself to be when I encountered the industry for the first time. I think had I been younger and even more impressionable and less sure of who Sarah really is, yeah, I would have had a much harder time. But I think I've always really related to the underdog story, and I never had There was no like rocket ship for me. It was always a real slow burn. Even if it felt like from the outside in it looked like wow, this like took off, it really didn't not from the inside. I played hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of shows before anything ever happened, and so there was this relationship to the work. When I think about young artists now and when people ask advice, my advice is all always like, go play, go play, go play, go play. It is not about the discovery of the next best hook that's going to be the number one song on whatever. If you really want a relationship to your creativity and to an artistic life, if that is something that is important to you, you have some work to do. It takes time to discover and to unearthed what your artistry is all about. And it doesn't happen overnight. It is not a fast process. It is a slow burn. And I think that I was very fortunate that my first record brought a lot of crazy success and travel and tours and stuff that nobody, including my record label, was anticipating. We were all betting against me. Let's be honest, But I I same. I had a lot of trepidation about fame. I had a lot of real fear about fame because I always felt like, I don't want to be famous. I want to be an artist who makes things. I don't look at the lifestyle of someone that can't leave their house without people following them. That is not for me. I don't want it. I don't never coveted that, no, thank you. It's it looks like a prison to me. And I'm a claustrophobic person anyway. So it's like the idea that there would be limitations on how I can move through the world makes me very, very uncomfortable. So I've been so fortunate in that way where like I don't have trouble moving through the world, but I get to make things I love. Fame is smoking, Mirrors is smoke and mirrors, And so I think really rooting in the humanity of the people you make things with, why are you making the thing you're making for me? It's just about getting really right with what are you in alignment about. Don't you think our relationship though with fame or are thinking about celebrity has shifted so much with social media because I also imagine now, like when you talk about it being a slow burn, you know, there's a generation growing up where like that slow burn doesn't exist. You pushed a video and it's viral tomorrow. There's no such thing. There's an expectation that I put this work out in the world and I should be famous tomorrow. But there's also an expectation that fame somehow is going to feed all those parts of you that feel empty and hollow. Well, and then I always ask people like, what does that mean to you to be famous? Because people will say I want to be famous, m what does that mean to you? Does it mean money? Because I think it's just about money and recognition, which again, I mean money is complicated. I mean it's it is helpful in a lot of in a lot of wonderful ways, but it also comes with a lot of complications too. And then being you know, having people know who you are, well, that's complicated too. It's all complicated. It is all complicated. But that's why I want us to examine those those same questions about your relationship with your art and your trajectory in that way because I can imagine there might be people listening, because I think like I would probably been thinking this a while ago without some of the life experience I had, which is like, well, if you don't want to be like super super famous, and like what are you going for? Right? Because always I felt like the trajectory was icon level, right, Like you know you can't leave your house kind of fame. I don't know if we thought about, like what is it that I want? Then? Right? And I love that you said two things that I heard was like freedom and flexibility to move in the world, and the freedom and opportunity to make the things that you want to make. But does does your relationship and understanding now fame and celebrity, does it shift what your goals are? Yeah? I think the times that I have gotten close to people who really exists on that sort of stratosphere, there's nothing there for me personally. There might be something there for someone else, but it's not right. I don't want that life. I see a tremendous amount of overwhelmed people get so they put so much on you as a public figure. I mean I experienced that to a very small degree, and sometimes it's overwhelming that someone has given me an extraordinary amount of power in their lives, and it's a little bit like I actually can't meet that, Like I've just I'm a mess. I don't I don't write like truly a mess. You're gonna want to rethink that you have to pick somebody else, But you know what, I what I do appreciate. I was thinking about this too with you, like you've just ablished such an authentic rapport with your fans and the people who admire your work. Was that thought out by you to share some of the inner workings of your life more publicly so that there's almost a protection built in, quite frankly, of like, listen, I'm going to share more about who I am, so you stop building an unrealistic expectation about me or was it like, also, just did you need to do it? Because that's your truth? Truly? And this is I am to a fault someone who like I have a real allergy to an authenticity. And it's not it's not cute all the time. It's like I'm the person who's like saying the thing that's like a little it's like, do you have tact like are you not? Like I don't really have a poker face, and I'm I'm not interested in projecting any kind of image of something I'm not. I'm just don't have I don't want the pressure of living up to that kind of an expectation. So I would rather remind people that like I am exactly the way you are when you're in the feudal position, crying and you can't figure out why I am slipping through the city, gent feeling lost and alone half the time and and doing the best I can. Right. I relate to people who are just doing the best they can, and I would only like to have them think of me as the same way, because I really feel like we're all the same that way. Take a moment, reflect on what you've heard, and we'll be right back. Welcome back to dominant Stories. Let's pick up right where we left off. One of the things that is awesome actually about and I like this about having professional success as or having is that it brings opportunities and then really cool doors can open to meet awesome people are collaborate in certain ways, and but one of the things I've struggled with is saying no to opportunity when for so long those doors weren't open, and when they started to open for you, and when you get asked to do a lot of things that I imagine you do, how do you navigate your boundaries of self care and protection and saying no but also being really like, you know, excited about being chosen, being asked, that's a hard part of the process. The first time it happened, I got into a complete state of overwhelm and was just wrung out. I had said yes to everything, and I think when, especially when you're new in your career and you are getting opportunities for the first time, there is a part of you that does have to say yes, you have to go to these places for the first time and then. But I think the mistake that I made was not quite picking up on my own signal else that like, oh, I'm actually breaking down a little bit in this. I am too exhausted to meet the moment. We're in Paris and I can't leave the hotel room because I'm literally too physically exhausted to even go see the Eiffel Debt, Like that's not the quality of experience. Why go like it? Just save it for another time. But I understand the fear of that it might not come again. But boundaries have been an incredible tool, Like I don't think you can do this life successfully without boundaries. I think I still run into that problem. I put too much on my plate because I have this amazing privilege of wonderful projects that come to me and I don't want to say no to anything. But again, it's like the Eiffel Tower in Paris. I'm not going to see it because I can't. It's like we were talking about joy. There's no joy in doing things from a place of overwhelmed. There's no joy there. So I don't want to do that, you know, Yeah, I was. I was talking to my friend um leve a Giant Jones, and she was saying that she's got like a system of questions that she asks herself when opportunities come before her. She asked like five questions and then she says if she says yes to three out of the five, she'll do the experience. And I adapted it for myself, so I asked myself, like, will this bring me joy? Does my soul aligned to this? Can I be of service in this situation? Does this help me financially? If that's also still a part of like, you know, motivation, Like sure I still live in this capitalistic world? And then the fifth one is will I learned something new in this experience? And you realize like, oh wow, No, it doesn't bring me joy. Yes, it might bring me money, but no, I don't know if I'm gonna learn anything new, Like it starts to give you a roadmap of saying no, because saying no it's very hard for me as a people pleaser. I'm sure it is, and especially with the amount of philanthropic requests that come through, there's so much being of service. But that has been a hard lesson for me as well as like I have gotten to a place at times where it's like I'm actually not even doing it from the right place anymore because I'm so overwhelmed or exhausted or I'm just trying to get it off the list. And then you have to really ask yourself, is this how I want to show up in these places? I also think our capacity to say yes to things for me was impacted when I got into a relationship with my husband. My type, availability and the priority around it shifted. He's my favorite person to spend time with. And I'm curious that that shifted for you as love has come into your life and you've been sharing that, you know more publicly with folks. Did this relationship with Joe like alter a little bit about how you prioritized your space and giving yourself more time to enjoy love. Yeah, it's been, I think because they become your favorite people and you're just like, it's so easy because it's built into the structure of your life that you're just around them. I have to continually come back to prioritizing I'm someone who needs a lot of alone time, and as an artist about something that I have realized, it's really important for my creative process for me to be actually physically alone. And so it's hard when you're like, oh, wait, you want to get pizza and you're so cute. Yeah, you're so cute, and that so much and so I mean, we were actually just talking about that recently, where it's like the nurturing of the creative self and the everything has to be in balance, you know, and it knocks out of balance really easily, and you just it's like the meditation phrase I come back to over and over again is just to begin again. You just have to begin again, try again, to recalibrate and to even things out, and it will move off track again and you just come back and start over. I agree. That's the compassion piece, I think, and that begin again part and I find it too. With Philipe, my husband, he builds furniture and he's got his shop in our garage, and and then I have like a studio here and I have a little home office. And we talk about how when we're out of sync is oftentimes when we're not in our little places making things whatever that means for us, because then when we come together, it's like we can turn those things off and then really be together. But I think it takes a certain maturity in a relationship to know, for my own sanity and well being and creativity, I need this time. And that has nothing to do with me not choosing you yes totally, and on the flip side, growing up enough to not take it personally and be like, yes, I want you to be your fullest, most expanded, biggest, brightest self and take all the space you need. That was one of the things that Joe, very early in our relationship, was very clear, there's nothing about him that wants to make me smaller, you know. So that's a nice illness, that's an honestly, that's an amazing thing. I remember having a conversation like that with Phelipe when we first met, and I said, you know, I want to live this big life and I want to do all these things and does not intimidate you, because that had been a story that I had in prior relationships, Right was either I was too much or I felt it felt like I was too much or And I remember his almost in immediate response was like, why would I be intimidated? Like I'm secure in who I am. Like that's awesome, that's inspiring. And I was like, what am I getting punked? Like you know, and when we got married, we one of our vows that we pledged to was the preservation of self love because without us working on ourselves, we couldn't keep showing up to give to the other persons. So true, has this relationship or this time in your life, this season in your life, has this taught you anything new about your love ability or your belief in your love ability to be loved and seen by somebody else? Like, I'm curious how that might have shifted any of those voices from long ago. Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, this is my first real partnership, I think, and there is so much that is so terrifying about that. To me, the choice to just stay is a constant conversation because I'm real flighty, and I'm like, it's overwhelming I have to go, and so like the choice that I make every day to just stay and because there's so much good here. But being seen for real, for real is terrifying and beautiful and liberating and complicated. One of the things that I love about Joe is that he's not pulling punches of me. I've got some real so to say, he has real issues too, but like I've got some real issues, but we are choosing to stay next to each other and like figure it out and shape shift a little bit for each other and on behalf of the wholeness of our our couple. That is a new experience. It about real, real connection. Conflict is sometimes a sign of intimacy, and oftentimes if you're willing to stay, the ability and the interest in resolving disagreements and where we don't we aren't in alignment is a part of the growth and that has been so illuminating to me. But yeah, Joe has made me feel completely lovable and a reminder of like, oh, where are the places in myself where I'm not loving myself being as much as he does? I know. That was like so humbling. To see me through my partner's eyes is a real trip. Is a real experience to be like, oh, because sometimes, much like your friends that you were talking about earlier in the conversation, like Renee and your other friend who spoke beautiful words to you back to you in that moment, like I found the intimacy of having that with this partner. The way he could see me at times when I was not seeing myself and love me through moments where I was being just god awful was also so humbling and so beautiful because I found that to be a real challenge to the stories in my head about what my worth was and and realizing that you're you're right, the choosing to show up for yourself for this partnership, for the learning for me goes back like even full circle to what we're talking about, which is, you know, these beliefs that we have, the stories that were told, like all of that is constant, and what also can be constant is we can love and be loved at the same time. How has it been for your creativity in a relationship? Do different things inspire you because of some of the emotions that get unlocked. I think for me it's a little bit of a logistical thing. I'm just used to creating in solitude. Yeah, I live with someone now and so I don't have alone time in that same way. So I think I'm actually trying to figure out how to solve for that a little bit. At the moment, it's the urgent necessarily, but it is something that has been kind of brewing, and I'm just I'm kind of examining, Oh, why am I not writing as much? And I think it's some of that is like, oh, I just like hanging out, and and then some of it's just a little bit logistical. Yeah, I agree. I mean I've had very similarly as well, Like I've I get up very very early now and I need those couple of hours before he wakes for me to sit with my creativity and call it in and have those moments. But as for people who are listening who like, I love what you said before when you said you want to live a creative, artistic life, I'm curious if there is something that you have learned, maybe of late, about a way to balance your identity around creativity, right, because I think sometimes creative people, if they're not producing all the time, we know that we're used to hustling for our worth and like we've got to be productive. Is there a piece of advice or an insight that you have do you want to give to people, like something that you've learned that has helped you through those rockier moments around your identity as a creative person while being human. Yeah. I mean what I feel compelled to say is that I find it helpful to think of it as a relationship. It is a relationship that you cultivate, nurture, tends to It will shift, it will sometimes be really fertile, it will sometimes feel like it's never going to return. I mean, how many artists have you spoken to songwriters who are like, no, I'll never write another song. They wrote a song that will never write another song'll never write another book, I'll never write whatever. It's an emotion sational relationship. And so treat it like a relationship and tend to it and offer compassion and grace and attention and intention and really nurture it the way you would nurture a relationship you really care about. Because I think there's a beautiful book called The War of Art Stephen Pressfield. He talks about, you know, the muse rewards the person who shows up every day show up for this relationship. You are the reward, my friend. You are so incredible. I love all of our convos, and I thank you so much for digging in with me on this. I'm more than happy to anytime. I adore you, and I'm so happy for this new adventure for you. Oh my word, I literally could talk to Sarah forever, forever, forever grateful for that one. And you know, I'd like to think about a couple of key takeaways after a conversation like this, because there's a lot that we unpacked, and I call them next supportive action steps because for me, I think these small steps help lead to great change. So here's kind of three things I'm thinking about. Number one is like managing my expectations around dominant stories. You know, Sarah and I talked about how these stories, these negative voices, they don't ever really go away no matter how much fame or success do you have, Like, none of that really matters. So give them a seat at the table, explore where they come from, get curious about them. The second thing that I'm loving about this conversation was the reminder that compassion and joy are truly necessary ingredients for us, not just as we rewrite these dominant stories, but just in life in general and around creativity, like don't forget to enjoy, joy the journey to find compassion for yourself when you screw up. And then lastly, and this is a big takeaway, treat your creativity like a relationship or in relationship with our mused to our creativity, So tend to it. Offer your creativity compassion and grace and attention and intention and and Sarah's advice to young artists is simple and beautiful. Go play, go play, go play, do your art. The rest will follow. If you're interested in learning more about dominant Stories, you can always join me for a workshop. Learn more about this at Jess Weiner dot com or feel free to follow me on social and I'm just Weiner on Instagram. I really want to build a community here and I want this to be a community conversation as so I would love to hear from you if you want to tell us about your dominant stories and how you're rewriting them. Uh, you can do it two ways. You can email us at podcast at Dominant stories dot com, or you can leave us a voicemail at two one three to five nine three zero three three. Next week, we're gonna be speaking with writer and psychotherapist Lori gott Leap. She wrote that incredible best selling book Maybe you Should talk to someone, and we're gonna do just that. We're gonna talk about how changing your dominant stories can actually change your life. Thank you so so much for tuning in. I'm so grateful, and don't forget to write a review wherever you're listening. It really helps us out a lot. And remember we are always learning and we are always growing. M Dominant Stories with Jess Winer is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.