I'm Shonda Rhymes and we're bringing Dominant Stories, created by Shawn land Audio in partnership with the Self Steam Project. I know what it's like to be so in on something that you like, listen to the albums constantly, and you read all the literature you can, and it's all you talk about, and it overtakes your your thoughts, right, it just consumes you. So when I see that happening to something that I was a part of, my God, I feel so lucky. Hey, I'm Jess Weener and this is Dominant Stories, the podcast that helps us reclaim and rewrite the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves, about our bodies, our beauty, our creativity, and our identities. Hey everybody, I'm Jess and welcome back to Dominant Stories. You've heard me talk a lot on the show about the relationship between the stories that we tell ourselves and the way that we creatively express ourselves out in the world, because I believe that when our dominant stories run our lives, when they've gone unexamined, they can actually stop us from taking creative risks that bring us closer to a life that we long for. And by the way, that could be in the arts and sports and business and education, because spoiler alert, I actually believe we all express ourselves creatively in some fashion, But how do you manage that inner narrative so that it doesn't get in the way of your genius? So on today's show, I am going to be talking to a real life musical genius who also happens to be a dear childhood friend of mine, and that is Alex Lackamore. Alex is an award winning music director, arranger, and composer. You know him best for his work on Broadways critically claimed show oh Little shows like Hamilton's Dear Evan Hansen and in the Heights. He's won three Tony's, four Grammys, and an Emmy, And most recently, Alex composed the score for Netflix Vivo and he's serving as the executive music producer on the film Tick Tick Boom. And if that wasn't already so impressive, Alex is a co founder of this incredible organization called Muse, which provides access and internships and mentorships to support historically marginalized people of color to cultivate more racial equity in theater and music departments. He also if that wasn't enough. Is a gem of a human you will soon see, with warmth and grace that is on par with his talent. We've known each other for over thirty years and I have never interviewed him professionally before. So here we go. I can't wait for you to listen. Let's dig it, Alex. Let's okay, let's talk about us, because we've known each other since I think we were twelve. Oh my god, that's probably right. Yeah, Junior High School stood Southwood Middle School. We went to the same performing arts middle school and high schools. So here's my recollection of you as baby Alex, which was like so sweet, already so ridiculously. I know you do a million of these kind of interviews around your career, but I wanted to talk a little bit about the man behind the music because for me, I remember falling in love with storytelling. I was thinking about this. It actually came when my sister and my dad and I would act out our bedtime stories. So my dad worked a lot but always made sure he was home to put us to bed, and but he would never read the stories. We would always act them out. And I can remember it like five six seven, like that was where I knew I wanted to play and tell stories. And for you, like, do you have a first memory of falling in love with music? Is that a conscious memory for you? Falling in love with music for the first time. I know about that just from stories that people have told me. And I have a cousin that told me that, like when I was too I would sit in front of the stereo speakers and just like stare into the speakers and just be transfixed by the music. And I'm told by my mom that before I even knew how to read, I knew what record I wanted to listen to because I associated a certain song to the logo of the forty five And I would say, oh, Mom, I want to hear Blue by You by Linda Ronstand or whatever, and she would grab a certain record and I would be like, no, Mom, it's not that when it's the other one, And like, how did I know? I just like knew by the color of the logo of the on the record. So I guess for whatever reason, like my love of music has always been around. And even when I had a toy piano I big we barely remember playing that thing, but that apparently is what led my parents to say, oh, wow, he has an interest in music. I mean, who knows if I was actually hitting the right notes as I played along to the radio. Maybe I was close, you know. But since then, music has just been a part of my life. It's how like I I measure things in my life. It's how I associate certain feelings certain times, it's how I remember dates. Music kind of saved me a little bit. I just felt so awkward as a kid, and you know, I had a hard time finding people around me that loved music as much as I did. And my music was kind of like this weird superpower that I didn't really get to display. And it wasn't until people realize, oh, Alex plays piano that I've started to like not become popular, but like I just had something that people could point to or relate to me on. That's why going to our performing arts junior high school, like that's where I really started to click. And like even meeting you and me all the kids in the theater department, j I can't tell you how size makershift that was in my life. To be able to meet you and to meet everyone around you that really just like it was just that that communal aspect, that family thing that theater provides, and what I saw that you all had and what I saw that you were all inviting me to be a part of, right, because like me to get invited to like the cast parties, right to me, to get to know your mom, who was so instrumental and like kind of like being the this big mother hand to all these kids. It was just this family feeling that I was just wanting so much in my social life, and that really provided it for me. So it was all through music and all through aren't. Yeah. They used to call my mom drama Mama. That's so interesting to hear you talk about that time in our life because when we're at that age and stage of life, like our dominant stories about where we fit, who we are, if we're good enough, is obviously so rampid. You know. Sarah Brellis and I were talking about this and like our very episode that like theater is the place where the misfits go, where we fit sort of like always a little bit being on the outside, and then when you play together and when you make something together, you form this family. And you were always such an incredible part of that. But take us back to like that mindset for you as a young kid, about like the dominant narratives, because you were saying you felt awkward or you felt like do you remember the stories you would tell yourself about yourself at that age? Did you have kind of a negative narrative running through your head? The first one that comes to mind is like, oh my god, girls don't like me. Like that was a big thing for me. Like I definitely was in love with girls in third grade and like, oh my gosh, she's never gonna notice me and all that. That was a very big dominant store for me. And the other thing for me was like, oh, wow, I'm not popular enough. I'm not cool enough, you know, because you would see TV shows and movies like, Oh, there's this group of people and they're well known and they were liked and they get you know, watching all those John Hughes movies and like, wow, what is it like to be at a crazy party like that? Like I had no idea, and I wanted that so much. There was definitely a thing that I wanted so much to be a part of that I just didn't feel like I could be a part of. And like I said, it wasn't until this music thing, until people saw, oh wow, Alex can do something like I have this vivid memory of being at the cast party for what was probably Oliver or you know, a Finian's Rainbow. I don't know, but my memory is is at someone's house and it's probably eleven o'clock at night, and I'm probably I'm gonna stay thirteen years old, and I'm at the piano and I cannot see anything around me except for people all surrounding me around the piano singing the hits of the day that I'm playing. And people are singing, and like, oh my god, people are singing because I'm playing, Like if I stopped playing, they want sings. So all of a sudden there's this like there's this relationship as being formed and like I'm making and it is magic in a way, right because like play these notes and they go into the air and people feel inspired to sing. But like once I felt that ability to like make a shift in something and do it through my music, which I loved anyway, it just was so easy. I just bought that home. I think one of those cast parties at least was at my house, because I do have those memories and probably some like pictures that I'll have to dig out somewhere of us. The hair was like the memorable moment for me, and like the higher the hair, the closer to God. Um. You know, I don't think I ever noticed or knew that you were hearing aids in did you wear them when we're Yeah, I never ever noticed? Yeah, seriously, you know, yeah, I was like, I mean, I I know about your hearing loss, but I don't think I ever like remember that being a part of how I thought about you or even like, yeah, it was not conscious for me, but obviously was. I know it was conscious for you because you've talked about like what that was like for you, and I wanted to take a little bit of a moment to have you speak more about that. When did you start wearing them? Like what did mom or dad notice first? Like I'm curious because I don't know that part of your story as well. Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting. I think I might know why maybe you don't relate hearing aids with me, And that's problem because at some point in junior high I did stop wearing them because I was self conscious about them. Interesting, So to answer your question. I think my mom first noticed when I was around four that she would call me from the other room and I wouldn't hear her, or she would notice how close I was sitting to the TV set and I would say, Oh, it's because I can't hear if i'm I'm far away. And I was around that time they I got tested from my hearing and I got fitted for hearing aids. And back then, this is like what nineteen eighty or so, they were big. Yeah, the technology at the time when they would fit behind the ear and you would just see this this apparatus just hanging at the top of your your ear lobe. And I think I wore them all throughout until I got the junior high and then somewhere along the line because they're not covered by my family couldn't afford a pair, so I only rocked one hearing aid because when one was better than none. And then I just distinctly remember that certain age where it's puberty and its subconsciousness, and enough people were asking me, Hey, what's that thing behind your ear that I didn't want them to ask anymore, so I just stopped wearing them all together. I just didn't that to me was another way to not fit in. Another way to not be cool is to where you're hearing it. And as a result, I missed so much just I mean, like my thing was okay. I always had to sit at the front of the class in order to hear the teacher. Friends jokes would happen, and I would be like, what they say, what they say. I still remember being in high school and my girlfriend at the time, they had a big viewing party at her house to watch Silence of the Lambs because it was like the hot movie at the time, and it was like twenty people in a dark room and that TV had to be so soft because her mom was asleep in the other room. But she was cool with us being there watching and I missed the entire movie. I couldn't hear of sucking thing because I couldn't in a big public room being like what they say what they say? Like after the third time, it's like, Alex stop. And that's what started to happen for me. The ship was somewhere along the line. I started to just sense people getting aggravated about me asking them all the time because you know, they say, hey, this guy's what the guy's blew what this guy is blewe Alex. When that happens enough times, you start to cower a little. You start to sometimes just not ask and just let things go by and act as if you you understood. You know, it became the things like oh, Alex, he doesn't understand. They just laugh off the fact that Alex didn't catch the joke. And I think once I got the college and enough new people, by that point, the technology of hearing aids had changed and they fit inside the ear and people don't necessarily notice them. So I've known people for years who have been around me as I'm wearing hearing aids, and they don't notice that they wear them, which is so odd to me, because if someone else is wearing hearing aids, that's the first thing I noticed that they have hearing as. Of course, I want to play this clip that you did for our hometown, an interview that you did for our hometown paper, the Miami Harold, where you talk about how that hearing loss transformed the way you connected to music. Okay, my hearing loss probably makes me listen a little harder, makes me listen a little more closely to music. And I also feel like the fact that I don't hear, like you know, it's hard for me to hear someone when they're talking very far away. So because of that, it allows me to kind of live in my own bubble. So I think that actually developed a lot of focus for me, because I can really focus in and zero in on music and just tune out the world and tune out everything around me. Maybe because of the fact that I have to work to listen, work to hear, makes me kind of get into finer details of music that by now they're just very second nature to me. But I often wonder, like, is you know, my handicap actually an asset? What do you think little Alex would hear about hearing you say that now you know it's I wonder what little Alex would think, because I don't know that I ever thought to myself, oh, my hearing is going to get in the way of the enjoying music. And that's where I feel like I'm lucky that it was never a detriment, Like it was just very apparent that like my hearing loss was not getting in the way of me playing music and having it feel like my language and having it feel like something that I felt drawn to or felt that I was good at as kids were all taught that Beethoven was deaf at a certain point in his life. So maybe somewhere in my mind, I'm like, oh there, yeah, it was so maybe that sea was planted. I bring this forward too, because I think for those people who are listening who might have their own stories about abilities or that they have or they don't have, or they wish they had keep them from creating and going after what they really want to do and be in the world. I agree. I agree, and I'm fortunate that I had a lot of support around me. Right, I had parents that believed in what I did. You know, I had Rick Adams are are directing teach Yeah, he was the director of our program. Yeah, in the director of the program. So those are people who were like, hey, Alex can do this, like hey, here's something that he's going to and would lift me up in that way. It was that support that helped me, you know, just those people who can kind of like recognize something and zero in on that, and that's what built me up. Alright, alright, I called time out for a second. Let's take a short break to hear these messages, all right, now, back to our conduct, I want to talk about kind of this journey. So you went to Berkeley College of Music, and now at this point you said there was always this moment in your life where you're like, Okay, I'm going to be doing music forever when you thought about going into the industry, because I think that's what those colleges also begin to prep you for, right, is thinking about like life afterwards. Were you already aware or thinking about how the industry has gatekeepers for whose stories get told and don't get told? You know, I think there's definitely something about when you're young and when you're learning that there's a world that can see him a little impenetrable in a certain way. And you mentioned taking trips up to New York to see Broadway. I don't know about you, but you know, as a kid in Miami, Broadway felt so far away, it felt almost impossible, much in the same way where you know, even being at school. Let's say, for example, a clinic would be held and you'd see Will Calhoun, the drummer from Living Color to a clinic, and I would see what he's doing, like, oh my god, that guy's in a rock band and he's touring the world. Oh my god, Like that felt like something I would want to do and yet felt really impossible. And then, through life happening, through opportunities, happening, through fate, through chance, whatever it is, you kind of get to these rooms and to get to these situations, and you feel as though you don't belong, and yet all of a sudden you realize, oh wait, I totally belong, Like I totally know what I'm doing. Oh, these are human beings just like us. These are people just like us. They've got their issues just like us, right, I think got their hang ups just like us. I know I've been in situations where I've said, hey, I don't think I can do this, and there's someone just above you. He's like, oh no, no, no, you totally can. I'm like, okay, if they think I can do it, then I can't do it. And it's just that little help from someone, or that little suggestion or that little opportunity to let you know, oh, this world is normal. It is not that much different from what it is that you are already doing. So I don't know that I felt like that they were like gatekeepers who like decide, oh you get in you don't da da da, But I know that they definitely felt like there was another spear that like, oh my god, that thing is rotating over there, Like how do I get there? Can I get there? Do I belong there? Am I worthy of it? I'm curious about the moment when you tackle multiple projects at one time, if you do that, or when you were building in your career, if you were taking on lots of projects, do you get scared when you're taking on multiple things? Do you ever doubt if you can do it? Do those dominant voices kind of come back in and are like, oh boy, you took on too much, or you're not going to get this done. Like I'm curious what that dialogue sounds like. Yes to all of it. Um, It's always been this way for me. I was always trying to like balance a million things at once and have music be a part of it. So I guess if I think back there, even being in junior high and like trying to deal with like the eight classes of like the of the math and the science and the history, and with the three extra classes of choir and theory and piano, and after that having to do the homework and doing the rehearsal for their community theater production of Pipping down the Street and at the same time practicing your classical piano so that you could play a solo piano concert in Meridith City in Mexico at the age of thirteen, which I did. I was doing all that stuff, same thing with high school, and I do have memories of my mom being like, you aren't taken on too much, and me just like finding a way to push through it, and things kind of felt by the wayside, Like there are certain books for English class that I didn't read, you know, there's certain tests that I could have done better at. But in the music world, like that's where I got the straight days. So there are times, yes in my life where I feel like I'm biting off a little bit more than I can choose, because what is sacrificed then is my sleep, my relaxed time, my time with my wife, my time with my family, all that it goes away. I'm learning now I'm forty six now, like I just starting to notice my out I can't do this stuff now that I used to be able to do my twenties, the all nighters and the degree of stuff like it's now starting to feel too much, to the point that even I'm saying, Yo, this is too much. And this past couple of years, particularly for me, was a pretty stressful and difficult one in terms of like things being on top of each other. But what's difficult is that there are all things I wanted to do. They are all things that felt important to me, and there were things that I would have regretted not being a part of and things that I felt like I learned something from along the way. I guess the price I paid is some extra stress and you know, some bags under my eyes. But I now I'm going to be just more careful about what it is that I do say yes too, because I am feeling the want, the desire to slow down. I want to travel. There's like countries I haven't been to write, There's experiences I haven't had. There's like people that I haven't been giving my devotion to that i'd like to and I feel like I can now, well, is this compensatory time, right? I think it's always this pendulum that swings back and forth. So I know you probably answered a million Hamilton's questions before, but one of the things that I'm thinking about is when you take on a project like that, or when you're working on a project like that, did you face a moment of doubt in working on a show like that of that magnitude or was the trick that y'all didn't really know what kind of magnitude it was going to be yet, so you're sort of unfettered by that pressure. But I'm curious about whether you had creator's block or if any doubts sort of spring up in the creation of that. Well, I'll tell you two stories. One of them is when we were in rehearsals for Off Broadway for Hamilton's before anyone had seen the show in public, right. I mean, we've had a couple of workshops, but we hadn't done like the production with like the costumes and the lights and all that stuff. I remember having a moment in rehearsal with Tommy Kaylor, director, and I said to him, Tommy, listen, I know this is like an amazing piece. I know that this is the best thing Limmle has ever written. I'm so proud of everything we're doing, But dude, are people really going to pay money to see a show about American history told through hip hop? Like is it gonna land? Are people really gonna get it? I truly wasn't sure. I thought at best it would be a critical success because the writing I knew was powerful, so that I recognized. I just didn't know, like if the public, the world, the country, whatever, people were ready to receive this message told in this way and back to the doubts, you know, in terms of the writing of it all, Like it was so important for me as the orchestrator for the show to get it right quote unquote, because I knew what Lynn Manuel was providing was such gold. I didn't want to be the one to mess it up, and I wanted to take as much time questioning every move I made and demoing every orchestration that I wrote to make sure that there was no stone left on turn, to make sure that it felt right. So like I took about eight months and to and to orchestrate the show, which is very out of the ordinary because most Broadway show it's get orchestrated and probably four weeks if that's because what happens is, you know, the show will be in rehearsal and an orchestrator is brought on very late in the game. Comparatively to the rest of the production, and they come in and listen once the numbers already staged in rehearsal, and then they go home and write on their own time. But I knew that I had to orchestrate ahead of time because I was going to be in the room eight hours a day playing piano and making these decisions, so I had to be as prepared as possible. I know, when I started, I had a hard time just getting the momentum going. And the first six or seven charts I did were just fine, and I knew as I was doing them they're just fine, But I had to keep going, and I had to keep moving. And then I hit my stride, probably around the eighth or the ninth, at the tenth one, like, oh now I get it. I know what the world is, I know what the palette is, and then I could go back to the first seven or eight tunes and redo them with a different mindset. The end of the process is just easier once you have your palette, once you have your your framework, then you and kind of flow and sail a little bit more easily. But the front half was definitely like just a lot of kind of banging your head against the wall. And but you've got to push through it. You have to know that it's not too late. You can come back to it, but you just gotta keep moving and trust that the that the right answer will reveal itself over time. That's like the master class of for creators, I think and writers in particular, but all artists, which is like, just get that crappy first draft done, Like, get it out there, get it out of your brain, your heart, your soul, and like then shape it from there and then edit yeah, absolutely, and then edit yeah. I love that you had commercial success and success before Hamilton's. But then Hamilton's is like its own universe. And when you start to see the fandom at the level that hamd Fams have rabid and passionate and incredible, that love is what stories do you tell yourself then about success? Like what's coming up for you when you hit that kind of pinnacle. What comes up for me is just its gratitude for being able to be a part of something that has that level of impact. That's the dream, right And in terms of like when I see that kind of fandom for the show, for some people, there is a level of obsession about it, And I get it because I'm obsessed about what I do. I'm obsessed about music. I remember being obsessed about Rush, obsessed about Beatles, obsessed about you know, chopin whatever. I still am. So I know what it's like to be so in on something that you like, listen to the albums constantly, and you read all the literature you can, and it's all you talk about, and it overtakes your your thoughts, right, it just consumes you. So when I see that happening to something that I was a part of, my God, I feel so lucky. Like if ever anyone recognizes who I am on the street, I'm always bewildered and amazed they know who I am a and be. That also shows Wow, they know about Hamilton's enough that they know like the people involved. That to me is a kin to like buying a CD right when we were kids and looking at the credits because we want to see who did this and who did that, because we wanted to know, Hey, who made this thing and what else did they make so that I could learn what it is that they did. So all this to say that I am just honored when I see that kind of fandom, and when I see people who express how the show has shape them or what it means to them, that's wonderful because I feel like, oh my gosh, I'm a part of it, and I it's just special. It truly is. Remember when we were I think, Felipe my husband, you and Ilani your wife, we were getting ice cream in Santa Monica when you guys are out here and those girls in line behind us and Straw remember, and they were like totally geeking out about you. And again I was thinking, like, you know, they recognized you and they were so excited to meet you, And I mean, does it get old like Grammy's Tony's, dude? Like, and I know that. I know, like you know, a lot of people like, oh, it's just being nominated that matters. No, dude, you won those Grammys and those Tony's. And I'm like just again thinking like what is twelve year old Alex think about that You're a red carpet with your smoking hot wife and your amazing career and like you're welcome, baby. I mean, do you have those moments where you reconcile the kid who felt like you didn't belong and that you know, you'd never have love in that way, and like do you have a moment in that gratitude and that recognition of like, look at where I am. I've transcended those stories. Yeah. I mostly feel like if I'm with family, Like if if I'm home, like my mom, who's so supportive and so so proud like that, that's where I feel. That's where I get into what that little kid was and like how far away those you know? And I can trace that back to my mom being a young eight year old girl like in a farm out in the boondocks of what do you think Cuba? You know, Like how does that this girl who grew up you know, go through whatever it is that she went through to meet whoever she met to birth me to do this stuff that I achieved, Like I changed it back to that and that that's some ship. Seriously, It's it seems impossible in the way, and yet here here we are. And I think about Tommy cam who says that a lot about Hamilton's and like it's it seems like it couldn't exist, and yet it does. And Uh, that's where I get present to it. I think when I come back to my family, that's when I realized, Wow, this is amazing and unlikely. Hey, where are you going? There's so much more this juicy convo coming right up. Hey, hey we're back. Now let's get into our convo. I want to talk about sort of like the drive and the perfectionism in a way that encompasses your life at times, and I'm curious, like how that kind of drive has impacted you know, friendships, relationships, like how you are learning to navigate that driving voice inside that makes excellent work product but also requires a balance, right or does it? I'm just I'm curious your relationship to the stories around perfectionism. Yeah, you know. The price that I think we as musicians pay for that kind of level of specificity in what we do is just this social awkwardness that I know. I addressed that earlier, but I gotta say that we are a rare breed. The amount of care and focus and knowledge that we have to mass on a certain kind of thing means that I think other things are going to not get as refined. Shall we say the sacrifices how we kind of navigate in the world and listen, it's worth it for me. Back to what this call started at, It was like, Hey, there's that piece of me that feels like, oh my God, like I don't fit in, I don't belong to that, and that I don't think we'll ever go away. That is going to be with me until my last breath, sorry to say, And it's okay. I think what we've come to terms that that's just the way life is, and how you deal with that and how loud that voice gets and how much you listen to it that you can navigate. But it's kind of uh, empowering to learn, Oh, that just is always there. What I can control is how loud it is. I think you've literally summarized what has been a whole season of conversations around these dominant stories because I don't think they ever go away. I think we learn how to invite them in, give them a seat at the table, listen to what their concerns are, and then figure out how to manage them. But I think we get better at managing them, at challenging them, at rewriting them, of making friends with them. Um, how is a cree Later? Do you hold on to the wonder of creating when the world can sometimes feel like a ship show? Does music pull you out of that feeling, does it save you there as well in the wonder of making things? So the work that I do is usually commission based, and what I mean by that is I've not been the type of creator where I just generate something because I have this feeling that is bottled up inside that I need to express. I'm not a songwriter in that way. I'm always brought on to help someone fulfill a vision. Really, so I guess I feel lucky in that the wonder for me is always in the fact that I'm actually serving other people. So for me, that's where the magic is through the collaboration, truly, and that's why I love what it is that I do. I'm always working with other people and getting to work with new people and getting new experiences and figure out how that person works and how that person takes So for me, it's always new and fresh in that way, and I feel lucky that how I get to move through the world is through the work that I get to do with other people on their art. So I love being a conduit in that way. That's really important to me. And then that through line that we've been talking about this whole time around the community that you find and how that fills you up right even from little kid to now. I know one of the things though, I know that for you, creating more diversity within music departments, um both in the theater industry and other systems are important to you. And you actually went a step further and you co founded this amazing organization called MUSE. And I wanted to spend a little bit of time talking about that. Talk to me about that leap now into you have this success in this visibility, and now it's time to work on the visibility within music department. So talk a little bit about MUSE. So mus stands for Musicians United for Social Equity, and the organization was mostly born out of the reckoning that are industry was taken to task for. And it was just a realization that, like, oh my god, like if we look around most music departments, for most shows and for most pits, there is definitely a lack of diversity when it comes to folks of color. And it became apparent to us how much power we as musicians have in terms of who gets asked to be in the room. And we talked about this earlier, right about gatekeepers and what that is and I gotta tell you. Once the summer hit of last year and George Boy's murder, even though there were murder murders that led up to that, but that is when people were really looking at oh my gosh, like how are we populating our groups and our teams? And I remember at that moment, I thought to myself, Oh wow, everyone is now going to be in this mindset and everyone is going to like really put this front and center on how they staff and how they populate panels and groups and teams. And I repeatedly kept going into rooms and realizing, wait a second, no one is saying anything. And I kept thinking like, oh, I'm not going to have to do that work. It doesn't have to be me. But then I realized, ship I have to be the one ranging in my hand to be like, wait a second, there are no black people anywhere in this group, like where are the women? Were like I'm the only Latino? Like what is going on here? And I kept thinking to myself like, oh, other people are going to be doing that, but I just realized, oh my god, if I don't do it, it's not going to be anybody. So it's this realization that you've got to do something different. You have to pass along knowledge, you have to mentor you have to give access, and you have to speak up. And I think that's really what I've been learning about news and the power that we have. And it's this weird thing where you feel sometimes as though you are powerless when there are times that you actually really have way more power than you think. And who you invite into the room makes a big difference. And I will tie this into a story that relates to us. Just I remember being in ninth grade in junior high. This is you know, high school still started at tenth grade. So we're about to leave Southwood and I remember that there is this big dinner happening for the theater department. Now mind you, I'm in the music department and I was invited to the theater dinner by Mr Adams and I didn't know why, but I knew, like, oh my god, like how cool, Like I love these folks, I know, like all of the buds, and we perform and do all this, And what was amazing is that it was basically a night that was a dinner, and like awards were given out, you know, best the commitment to the show, best whatever, and then Mr Adams like had an award, like a special one for me just for being like the pianist for the group. He extended a hand and said, hey, Alex, you be a part of this, like have a seat at this table literally and metaphorically. And what a difference that made for me, Like how included I felt, and how this room I wanted to be in and he allowed me to be in that and what a wonderful feeling that is. And to be able to give that to folks especially they feel like they can't be a part of that if there's a systemic reason that prevents them from that happening. I'd tased it back to how it was that I felt when someone extended that hand and asked me to be a part of something and gave me recognition and gave me that boost of confidence and what that did for me, So like, why shouldn't we pay that back to other people? Yeah, muse, I think takes it one step further, which is really important, which is you have this incredible directory and database of eligible artists and musicians. And so what I love about it is because oftentimes systems be the music industry, film TV, and the industry always talk about pipeline, right, like, we don't have the right pipeline. That's kind of bs because folks of color, folks of all genders exist and a lot of it is access and relationship. And I think mused as a beautiful job. And you had I think a sister side. I was watching as well as my yes stra right, yeah, so there's not a shortage of folks to recommend and to champion and and to invite into the room and speaking of the room where it happens, because I can't like talk to you and not have a Hamilton reference. I'm curious, like what advice you would give listeners who are trying to bring their story and their talent into the world but haven't seen their stories represented yet, haven't seen people like them orchestrate or you know, moderated discussion or write a book or whatever their art is that they're bringing into the world. What would you tell somebody who is desiring to creatively self express in the world but haven't seen that role model yet. You know, I take a page from Lin Manim's book, right, and the fact that he as a Puerto Rican dude living in New York and loving music and loving theater. I just felt like the show that he wanted to be and wasn't written yet, and he realized, oh my god, I need to write it. And again you keep thinking other people more experienced than you are, older than you were, more established than you are going to do something. But you wake up one day and you realize, now that person is me. So I would say, if you have that need to express, if you have that thing that you need to see out there, just do it. Just write it, just create it, and try to find your tribe, as I said earlier, because what we do in theater requires a village. You've got to find the people who are going to help bring your thing to life. And I guarantee that those partners are out there, and sometimes it takes longer to find them. Sometimes you bang your head against the wall. But I think this is the time, seriously, because it's in the forefront. Like if there are Latino writers, like people are looking for Latino music directors, people are looking for Latin writers and created all that stuff, write something. If this is you've wanted to get something produced, this is the time, you know, So like, don't delay, let it happen. My hope is that by people like Lemonuel creating first in that way, hopefully that will allow other people to see, hey, I can do this too. Well, buddy, I'm so happy you're a part of my tribe, and I'm so happy that we got a chance to to go down this road together. And I think you're right. Those dominant stories, those reasons why you haven't done it, shouldn't do it, couldn't do it, They're always going to be there. But the ability to overcome those, to do it in spite of being afraid to do it, in spite of not exactly knowing where it's going to lead you. That's the beauty of creativity. That's the beauty of self expression. UM. And being able to follow that, finding your people, relying on people in community. I think those are beautiful things to take away, UM. And also tell people how they can get involved in support MUS. Yes, so we have a website mus dot org. We have a directory. So if you are looking for say and oboist in the Los Angeles area and looking for folks of color, you would just type in because anyone can join the directory. Any person of color can join the directory, I mean, and anyone can look on the directory and kind of find folks that you might not have called before. We get so used to calling the same friends over and over to play our bands, and we have to get new friends, get to know new people. And you can donate on the website. Yeah, you can't be a partner news later and in uh in that way, I love it. It's such an important solution to a much whiter issue. So kudos to you and the whole team for doing that. And bonus question, what was your favorite thing for you to plan for us to sing too when we were little? Do you have a favorite moment? Yeah? I have memories of being in your house playing stuff from l Miss and I remember I first learned about Gentle through you. So we would be on the piano batch and you'd be sitting next to your welcome and you hearing me. To this day, just I cannot think of Piece of Sky without thinking of you and being in your house. The support you gave, the support your mom gave. I just felt included and it was just so important and so moneymental to me. Jess. I'm just so grateful. Thank you. Oh man, it was so easy. It was easy to love you then. It's so easy to love you. Now, Why hasn't Barbara's dreisand called we could do a little like we can rekickle that moment and do it. Let's Barbara, We'll fly out of Miami. I love it, my friend, I adore you. Thank you for lending your genius, your spirit, your warmth, and your grace to this conversation. Thank you so much for having me, Jess. My heart could not be fuller than to have spent that time with somebody I love and to share that somebody I love with you. He's I told you, he's as gracious as he is a genius, and he's a beautiful culmination of a lot of the conversations we've had throughout this season with folks number one, I think a big theme was about mentor and championing other people, giving them access to rooms that you're in, championing their voice, supporting them as they speak up. I mean, obviously being invited into those spaces really impacted Alex. I think we can take that as a wonderful message and an actionable takeaway of like, how are we paying it forward and championing this next generation of voices in our lives? Whatever that looks like. Having that generosity mindset so important. And then I think that advice that Alex gave for folks that are looking to get their art out into the world, their story out into the world. Even if you've never seen anybody like you produce the kind of thing that you want to make in the world, you still have to do it anyway. Don't wait for other people. I loved how he shared you know that Lynn Manuel wrote a musical that needed to exist. He needed to see Hamilton out in the world. It didn't exist prior. We can't wait for other people's approval. And probably along those same lines, what a great reminder to, like, get that crappy first draft out right, you can always go back and edit it. Just to hear Alex talk about seven or eight versions of music for Hamilton's that he felt like, we're just fine, but then was able to like refine, go back, find his groove. What a great example of just doing it. And then maybe the biggest theme of all is this power of community. You know, we've created a really beautiful one here for this show, and the power of community uplifts and transforms our lives and our stories, and it certainly did for Alex. You know, look for your creative partners to help you get your work out into the world. You know, when you click into a group of people that can support you, that see you where you feel like you fit, those are often the relationships that can help you change and challenge and rewrite those dominant stories. And if you're interested in learning more about dominant stories and how you can challenge and change and rewrite them, I teach workshops on this. You can always sign up at just weiner dot com and you can follow me on Instagram and I'm just Weener. And please don't forget to write a review wherever you're listening to this podcast. It's super duper, duper duper helps us out. I can't believe it, but this is the last episode of our season, and I just wanted to say thank you. Thank you for the beautiful guests we've had on this show and their trust and their faith in me to navigate through some deep and nuanced and complicated conversations. Thank you for you all who have been listening and taking the time to write a review or send in an email and let me know how this has impacted you. And thank you for my friends at Shanda Land and my heart and dove for creating a space at this time, this season of the world that we're in to have a conversation around something like Dominant Stories, something that I think we all universally can relate to this sort of negative self chatter in our heads and giving us time and space and thoughtfulness to unpack that, to provide resources for all of us to get or at challenging, changing, and rewriting. There is so much more fun and joy and love in here than I think. Sometimes even the title will have you believe. Um, the work of the work of changing yourself, of changing the way you think about yourself, or changing the way you feel about your body or image or identity, your creativity. While it is hard, while it can be complex and intersectional, it is also really rewarding to give time to educating yourself, loving yourself, working on yourself. And um, I just feel so grateful to be a small part of your journey as you've been listening, and I hope we get to do it again. Remember, we are always learning, always growing, and it has been an ultimate joy and pleasure to do that learning and growing with you. Dominant Stories with Jess Wiener is a production of Shonda Land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.