In this episode of Disruption/Interruption, host KJ sits down with Lukas Egger, VP of Product Strategy and Innovation at SAP Signavio. They discuss the realities of implementing AI in large enterprises, the pitfalls of treating AI as a plug-and-play solution, and the importance of re-engineering business systems to unlock true value. Lucas shares insights on innovation, the dangers of the "speed race," and how organizations can de-risk ambitious AI projects.

 

Four Key Takeaways:
The AI "Rat Race" Myth[2:00]
Lukas explains why the biggest mistake in AI adoption is thinking it's a race to move the fastest, and why slowing down can actually lead to outsized value.
The True Cost and Opportunity of AI[7:26]
The conversation compares current AI investments to the Manhattan Project, highlighting the generational scale of today's infrastructure build-out and the unique opportunities it presents.
Paradigm Shifts: Cheap Content, Expensive Trust[16:59]
Lukas discusses how the abundance of cheap, AI-generated content shifts value creation from ownership to membership, and why trust and personalization are now critical.
Re-engineering Business Systems for AI[24:29]
Lukas argues that success with AI requires rethinking and redesigning entire business processes, not just swapping out old components for new technology.

 

 

Quote of the Show (36:55):
"The most important part is to claim agency about your strategy and what you want to achieve, and this will not come from giving into whatever the latest social media news might imply.” – Lukas Egger 

 

Join our Anti-PR newsletter where we’re keeping a watchful and clever eye on PR trends, PR fails, and interesting news in tech so you don't have to. You're welcome.

 

Want PR that actually matters? Get 30 minutes of expert advice in a fast-paced, zero-nonsense session from Karla Jo Helms, a veteran Crisis PR and Anti-PR Strategist who knows how to tell your story in the best possible light and get the exposure you need to disrupt your industry. Click here to book your call: https://info.jotopr.com/free-anti-pr-eval

 

Ways to connect withLukas Egger:

LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/lukas-np-egger

Company Website:  signavio.com

 

How to get more Disruption/Interruption: 

Amazon Music - https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/eccda84d-4d5b-4c52-ba54-7fd8af3cbe87/disruption-interruption

Apple Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disruption-interruption/id1581985755

Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/6yGSwcSp8J354awJkCmJlD

In this episode of Disruption/Interruption, host KJ sits down with Lukas Egger, VP of Product Strategy and Innovation at SAP Signavio. They discuss the realities of implementing AI in large enterprises, the pitfalls of treating AI as a plug-and-play solution, and the importance of re-engineering business systems to unlock true value. Lucas shares insights on innovation, the dangers of the "speed race," and how organizations can de-risk ambitious AI projects.
&nbsp;
Four Key Takeaways:
<ol>
<li> The AI "Rat Race" Myth [2:00] Lukas explains why the biggest mistake in AI adoption is thinking it's a race to move the fastest, and why slowing down can actually lead to outsized value.</li>
<li> The True Cost and Opportunity of AI [7:26] The conversation compares current AI investments to the Manhattan Project, highlighting the generational scale of today's infrastructure build-out and the unique opportunities it presents.</li>
<li> Paradigm Shifts: Cheap Content, Expensive Trust [16:59] Lukas discusses how the abundance of cheap, AI-generated content shifts value creation from ownership to membership, and why trust and personalization are now critical.</li>
<li> Re-engineering Business Systems for AI [24:29] Lukas argues that success with AI requires rethinking and redesigning entire business processes, not just swapping out old components for new technology.</li>
</ol>
&nbsp;
&nbsp;
Quote of the Show (36:55): "The most important part is to claim agency about your strategy and what you want to achieve, and this will not come from giving into whatever the latest social media news might imply.&rdquo; &ndash; Lukas Egger 
&nbsp;
Join our Anti-PR newsletter where we&rsquo;re keeping a watchful and clever eye on PR trends, PR fails, and interesting news in tech so you don't have to. You're welcome.
&nbsp;
Want PR that actually matters? Get 30 minutes of expert advice in a fast-paced, zero-nonsense session from Karla Jo Helms, a veteran Crisis PR and Anti-PR Strategist who knows how to tell your story in the best possible light and get the exposure you need to disrupt your industry. Click here to book your call: <a href="https://info.jotopr.com/free-anti-pr-eval">https://info.jotopr.com/free-anti-pr-eval</a>
&nbsp;
Ways to connect with Lukas Egger:
LinkedIn:&nbsp;<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/lukas-np-egger">http://www.linkedin.com/in/lukas-np-egger</a>
Company Website: &nbsp;<a href="https://signavio.com/">signavio.com</a>
&nbsp;
How to get more Disruption/Interruption:&nbsp;
Amazon Music - <a href="https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/eccda84d-4d5b-4c52-ba54-7fd8af3cbe87/disruption-interruption">https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/eccda84d-4d5b-4c52-ba54-7fd8af3cbe87/disruption-interruption</a>
Apple Podcast - <a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disruption-interruption/id1581985755">https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disruption-interruption/id1581985755</a>
Spotify - <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/6yGSwcSp8J354awJkCmJlD">https://open.spotify.com/show/6yGSwcSp8J354awJkCmJlD</a>

When did you say ”THAT’S IT! I’VE HAD IT!”? Time to Disrupt and Interrupt with host Karla Jo. Every week KJ interviews professionals who are disrupting their industries and altering economic networks that have been antiquated with bull-headed predecessors holding up the progress.

KJ delves into uncovering more from industry rebels and innovators that you didn’t know you needed in your life.

Disruption / Interruption

Disrupting the Workflow: De-Risking Ambitious AI Projects with Lukas Egger

In this episode of Disruption/Interruption, KJ sits down with Colin Cooper, CEO and co-founder of Illuminate XR, to explore the massive skills gap threatening our workforce. With over 100 companies under his belt and thousands of global hires, Colin has witnessed firsthand how our 200-year-old education system is failing to prepare people for today's AI-driven world. Discover how immersive technology, emotional intelligence training, and personalized learning are revolutionizing the way humans learn, and why the next few years will determine whether we step into the "age of humanity" or fall behind forever.

Four Key Takeaways
The Education System Is 200 Years Behind (4:42) 
Our schools still operate on an industrial-age factory model designed to create compliant workers, not creative thinkers. Classrooms haven't fundamentally changed in over 1,000 years, and curriculum remains rooted in preparing students for a world that no longer exists.
Meet Learners Where They Are (7:40)
Real learning happens when you reduce cortisol and increase dopamine by connecting education to personal interests. Whether it's tailoring physics lessons to football or basketball, or using horses to teach emotional intelligence, personalization is the key to engagement and retention.
AI Should Amplify, Not Replace (20:05) 
The future isn't about AI replacing teachers or workers—it's about using AI as a personal assistant to handle repetitive tasks. Start by identifying one repetitive task in your job and automate it with AI tools like ChatGPT, Claude, or Perplexity.
We're Living Through 25 Years of Progress Every Year (29:20)
The convergence of AI and VR—technologies that shouldn't have merged for another 15-20 years—has compressed innovation timelines. What used to take 10-15 years to bring to market now takes weeks. The next 3-4 years will be transformative, and we have one shot to get it right.

 Quote of the Show (29:40):
"When a year goes by, you normally get one year's worth of progress, but where we're at today, a year goes by and it's like 20 to 25 years of technology growth." – Colin Cooper

Join our Anti-PR newsletter where we’re keeping a watchful and clever eye on PR trends, PR fails, and interesting news in tech so you don't have to. You're welcome.

Want PR that actually matters? Get 30 minutes of expert advice in a fast-paced, zero-nonsense session from Karla Jo Helms, a veteran Crisis PR and Anti-PR Strategist who knows how to tell your story in the best possible light and get the exposure you need to disrupt your industry. Click here to book your call: https://info.jotopr.com/free-anti-pr-eval

Ways to connect withColin Cooper:
LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/colinmbcooper/
Company Website: https://illuminatexr.com

How to get more Disruption/Interruption: 
Amazon Music - https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/eccda84d-4d5b-4c52-ba54-7fd8af3cbe87/disruption-interruption
Apple Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disruption-interruption/id1581985755
Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/6yGSwcSp8J354awJkCmJlD

In this episode of Disruption/Interruption, KJ sits down with Colin Cooper, CEO and co-founder of Illuminate XR, to explore the massive skills gap threatening our workforce. With over 100 companies under his belt and thousands of global hires, Colin has witnessed firsthand how our 200-year-old education system is failing to prepare people for today's AI-driven world. Discover how immersive technology, emotional intelligence training, and personalized learning are revolutionizing the way humans learn, and why the next few years will determine whether we step into the "age of humanity" or fall behind forever.
Four Key Takeaways
<ol>
<li> The Education System Is 200 Years Behind (4:42) Our schools still operate on an industrial-age factory model designed to create compliant workers, not creative thinkers. Classrooms haven't fundamentally changed in over 1,000 years, and curriculum remains rooted in preparing students for a world that no longer exists.</li>
<li> Meet Learners Where They Are (7:40) Real learning happens when you reduce cortisol and increase dopamine by connecting education to personal interests. Whether it's tailoring physics lessons to football or basketball, or using horses to teach emotional intelligence, personalization is the key to engagement and retention.</li>
<li> AI Should Amplify, Not Replace (20:05) The future isn't about AI replacing teachers or workers&mdash;it's about using AI as a personal assistant to handle repetitive tasks. Start by identifying one repetitive task in your job and automate it with AI tools like ChatGPT, Claude, or Perplexity.</li>
<li> We're Living Through 25 Years of Progress Every Year (29:20) The convergence of AI and VR&mdash;technologies that shouldn't have merged for another 15-20 years&mdash;has compressed innovation timelines. What used to take 10-15 years to bring to market now takes weeks. The next 3-4 years will be transformative, and we have one shot to get it right.</li>
</ol>
&nbsp;Quote of the Show (29:40): "When a year goes by, you normally get one year's worth of progress, but where we're at today, a year goes by and it's like 20 to 25 years of technology growth." &ndash; Colin Cooper
Join our Anti-PR newsletter where we&rsquo;re keeping a watchful and clever eye on PR trends, PR fails, and interesting news in tech so you don't have to. You're welcome.
Want PR that actually matters? Get 30 minutes of expert advice in a fast-paced, zero-nonsense session from Karla Jo Helms, a veteran Crisis PR and Anti-PR Strategist who knows how to tell your story in the best possible light and get the exposure you need to disrupt your industry. Click here to book your call:&nbsp;<a href="https://info.jotopr.com/free-anti-pr-eval">https://info.jotopr.com/free-anti-pr-eval</a>
Ways to connect with Colin Cooper: LinkedIn:&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/colinmbcooper/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/colinmbcooper/</a> Company Website:&nbsp;<a href="https://illuminatexr.com">https://illuminatexr.com</a>
How to get more Disruption/Interruption: Amazon Music - <a href="https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/eccda84d-4d5b-4c52-ba54-7fd8af3cbe87/disruption-interruption">https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/eccda84d-4d5b-4c52-ba54-7fd8af3cbe87/disruption-interruption</a> Apple Podcast -&nbsp;<a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disruption-interruption/id1581985755">https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disruption-interruption/id1581985755</a> Spotify - <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/6yGSwcSp8J354awJkCmJlD">https://open.spotify.com/show/6yGSwcSp8J354awJkCmJlD</a>

Disrupting the Skills Crisis: Mastering Learning with VR and AI with Colin Cooper

In this episode of Disruption/Interruption, KJ sits down with Joey Coleman, two-time Wall Street Journal bestselling author and expert in experience design and retention strategy. Joey reveals the shocking truth about employee turnover—costing businesses a trillion dollars annually—and shares his proven framework for transforming the first 100 days of any relationship. From his background as a criminal defense attorney and White House advisor to consulting with NASA, Volkswagen, and Zappos, Joey brings unique insights into why companies lose employees and customers, and more importantly, how to keep them.

 

Four Key Takeaways
The First Day Crisis (10:25)
4% of all new hires quit after their first day of work globally, and by day 45, that number jumps to 22%. By the one-year mark, 40% of employees have left—costing U.S. businesses approximately $1 trillion annually.
The True Cost of Turnover (13:00)
Replacing an employee costs between 100-300% of their annual salary just to get someone new into the seat—not including their actual salary and benefits. For a $50,000 employee, you're looking at $50,000-$150,000 in replacement costs alone.
HR's Shift from Culture to Compliance (27:00)
Over the past 50 years, HR departments have shifted focus from creating great workplace cultures to managing compliance, documentation, and litigation prevention—leaving no one responsible for making the workplace the best it can be.
The Remarkable Organization Test (35:31)
"The way you know you're running a remarkable organization is if you announce you're hiring and your existing employees immediately recommend amazing people they want to work with. In most organizations, internal referral candidates measure close to zero."

 

Quote of the Show (28:12):
"There is no one who wakes up in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, 'My primary job when I get to work today is to make sure that this is the best place that any of these people have ever worked.'" – Joey Coleman

 

Join our Anti-PR newsletter where we’re keeping a watchful and clever eye on PR trends, PR fails, and interesting news in tech so you don't have to. You're welcome.

 

Want PR that actually matters? Get 30 minutes of expert advice in a fast-paced, zero-nonsense session from Karla Jo Helms, a veteran Crisis PR and Anti-PR Strategist who knows how to tell your story in the best possible light and get the exposure you need to disrupt your industry. Click here to book your call: https://info.jotopr.com/free-anti-pr-eval

 

Ways to connect withJoey Coleman:

LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeycoleman1/

How to get more Disruption/Interruption: 

Amazon Music - https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/eccda84d-4d5b-4c52-ba54-7fd8af3cbe87/disruption-interruption

Apple Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disruption-interruption/id1581985755

Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/6yGSwcSp8J354awJkCmJlD

In this episode of Disruption/Interruption, KJ sits down with Joey Coleman, two-time Wall Street Journal bestselling author and expert in experience design and retention strategy. Joey reveals the shocking truth about employee turnover&mdash;costing businesses a trillion dollars annually&mdash;and shares his proven framework for transforming the first 100 days of any relationship. From his background as a criminal defense attorney and White House advisor to consulting with NASA, Volkswagen, and Zappos, Joey brings unique insights into why companies lose employees and customers, and more importantly, how to keep them.
&nbsp;
Four Key Takeaways
<ol>
<li>The First Day Crisis (10:25)</li>
<ul>
<li>4% of all new hires quit after their first day of work globally, and by day 45, that number jumps to 22%. By the one-year mark, 40% of employees have left&mdash;costing U.S. businesses approximately $1 trillion annually.</li>
</ul>
<li>The True Cost of Turnover (13:00)</li>
<ul>
<li>Replacing an employee costs between 100-300% of their annual salary just to get someone new into the seat&mdash;not including their actual salary and benefits. For a $50,000 employee, you're looking at $50,000-$150,000 in replacement costs alone.</li>
</ul>
<li>HR's Shift from Culture to Compliance (27:00)</li>
<ul>
<li>Over the past 50 years, HR departments have shifted focus from creating great workplace cultures to managing compliance, documentation, and litigation prevention&mdash;leaving no one responsible for making the workplace the best it can be.</li>
</ul>
<li>The Remarkable Organization Test (35:31)</li>
<ul>
<li>"The way you know you're running a remarkable organization is if you announce you're hiring and your existing employees immediately recommend amazing people they want to work with. In most organizations, internal referral candidates measure close to zero."</li>
</ul>
</ol>
&nbsp;
Quote of the Show (28:12): "There is no one who wakes up in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, 'My primary job when I get to work today is to make sure that this is the best place that any of these people have ever worked.'" &ndash; Joey Coleman
&nbsp;
Join our Anti-PR newsletter where we&rsquo;re keeping a watchful and clever eye on PR trends, PR fails, and interesting news in tech so you don't have to. You're welcome.
&nbsp;
Want PR that actually matters? Get 30 minutes of expert advice in a fast-paced, zero-nonsense session from Karla Jo Helms, a veteran Crisis PR and Anti-PR Strategist who knows how to tell your story in the best possible light and get the exposure you need to disrupt your industry. Click here to book your call: <a href="https://info.jotopr.com/free-anti-pr-eval">https://info.jotopr.com/free-anti-pr-eval</a>
&nbsp;
Ways to connect with Joey Coleman:
LinkedIn:&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeycoleman1/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeycoleman1/</a>
How to get more Disruption/Interruption:&nbsp;
Amazon Music - <a href="https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/eccda84d-4d5b-4c52-ba54-7fd8af3cbe87/disruption-interruption">https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/eccda84d-4d5b-4c52-ba54-7fd8af3cbe87/disruption-interruption</a>
Apple Podcast - <a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disruption-interruption/id1581985755">https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disruption-interruption/id1581985755</a>
Spotify - <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/6yGSwcSp8J354awJkCmJlD">https://open.spotify.com/show/6yGSwcSp8J354awJkCmJlD</a>

Disrupting Retention: Hacking Employee and Customer Profits with Joey Coleman

In this episode of Disruption/Interruption, marketing veteran Ed Locher pulls back the curtain on B2B marketing's biggest lie: that the MQL machine actually drives growth. As CMO of PureFacts Financial Solutions and author of "Digital Transformation: People, Process and Technology," Ed reveals why 15 years of marketing automation created a sugar rush that's now crashing, and how AI can help fix it without repeating the same mistakes. This is a no-holds-barred conversation about emotional connection, the 95% of buyers marketers ignore, and why marketing tenure averages just 18 months.

 

Four Key Takeaways:
 The MQL Mirage Is Built on a Lie8:56
Marketing automation promised accountability through MQLs, but overdelivering on MQL targets quarter after quarter never translated to actual revenue growth. The entire system targets only the 5% of the market ready to buy right now—ignoring the 95% who need demand creation, not demand capture.
 B2B Buying Committees Have Tripled in Size16:30
The buying committee for enterprise B2B purchases has exploded from 5 people to 16. You can't build credibility and trust with 16 stakeholders through email sequences—you need emotional connection and personalized storytelling that speaks to each person's specific drivers (CFO cares about ROI, compliance cares about regulations, operations cares about not making headlines).
 AI Raises the Floor, Not the Ceiling29:59
AI protects terrible marketers from themselves by raising the quality floor, but it hasn't raised the bar for great marketing. The real opportunity lies 3-4 standard deviations above the mean—where human empathy, emotional triggers, and genuine understanding of customer pain create outsized impact that AI can't replicate.
 Marketing Attribution Is a Myth44:13
There will never be a "cast iron steel rod of attribution" connecting marketing activities directly to purchases. Marketers who work for leadership that doesn't understand this are doomed to 18-month tenures, chasing MQL targets that deliver short-term sugar rushes followed by revenue crashes. The rare CEO or investor who recognizes this broken motion is the problem—not the marketer—creates space for real growth.

Quote of the Show (44:13):
"There will never be a cast iron steel rod of attribution that says marketing did X, which led to this person buying something. It just doesn't work that way.” — Ed Locher

 

Join our Anti-PR newsletter where we’re keeping a watchful and clever eye on PR trends, PR fails, and interesting news in tech so you don't have to. You're welcome.

 

Want PR that actually matters? Get 30 minutes of expert advice in a fast-paced, zero-nonsense session from Karla Jo Helms, a veteran Crisis PR and Anti-PR Strategist who knows how to tell your story in the best possible light and get the exposure you need to disrupt your industry. Click here to book your call: https://info.jotopr.com/free-anti-pr-eval

 

Ways to connect withEd Locher:

LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/edlocher/

Company Website: https://purefacts.com

 

How to get more Disruption/Interruption: 

Amazon Music - https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/eccda84d-4d5b-4c52-ba54-7fd8af3cbe87/disruption-interruption

Apple Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disruption-interruption/id1581985755

Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/6yGSwcSp8J354awJkCmJlD

In this episode of Disruption/Interruption, marketing veteran Ed Locher pulls back the curtain on B2B marketing's biggest lie: that the MQL machine actually drives growth. As CMO of PureFacts Financial Solutions and author of "Digital Transformation: People, Process and Technology," Ed reveals why 15 years of marketing automation created a sugar rush that's now crashing, and how AI can help fix it without repeating the same mistakes. This is a no-holds-barred conversation about emotional connection, the 95% of buyers marketers ignore, and why marketing tenure averages just 18 months.
&nbsp;
Four Key Takeaways:
<ol>
<li> The MQL Mirage Is Built on a Lie 8:56 Marketing automation promised accountability through MQLs, but overdelivering on MQL targets quarter after quarter never translated to actual revenue growth. The entire system targets only the 5% of the market ready to buy right now&mdash;ignoring the 95% who need demand creation, not demand capture.</li>
<li> B2B Buying Committees Have Tripled in Size 16:30 The buying committee for enterprise B2B purchases has exploded from 5 people to 16. You can't build credibility and trust with 16 stakeholders through email sequences&mdash;you need emotional connection and personalized storytelling that speaks to each person's specific drivers (CFO cares about ROI, compliance cares about regulations, operations cares about not making headlines).</li>
<li> AI Raises the Floor, Not the Ceiling 29:59 AI protects terrible marketers from themselves by raising the quality floor, but it hasn't raised the bar for great marketing. The real opportunity lies 3-4 standard deviations above the mean&mdash;where human empathy, emotional triggers, and genuine understanding of customer pain create outsized impact that AI can't replicate.</li>
<li> Marketing Attribution Is a Myth 44:13 There will never be a "cast iron steel rod of attribution" connecting marketing activities directly to purchases. Marketers who work for leadership that doesn't understand this are doomed to 18-month tenures, chasing MQL targets that deliver short-term sugar rushes followed by revenue crashes. The rare CEO or investor who recognizes this broken motion is the problem&mdash;not the marketer&mdash;creates space for real growth.</li>
</ol>
Quote of the Show (44:13): "There will never be a cast iron steel rod of attribution that says marketing did X, which led to this person buying something. It just doesn't work that way.&rdquo; &mdash; Ed Locher
&nbsp;
Join our Anti-PR newsletter where we&rsquo;re keeping a watchful and clever eye on PR trends, PR fails, and interesting news in tech so you don't have to. You're welcome.
&nbsp;
Want PR that actually matters? Get 30 minutes of expert advice in a fast-paced, zero-nonsense session from Karla Jo Helms, a veteran Crisis PR and Anti-PR Strategist who knows how to tell your story in the best possible light and get the exposure you need to disrupt your industry. Click here to book your call: <a href="https://info.jotopr.com/free-anti-pr-eval">https://info.jotopr.com/free-anti-pr-eval</a>
&nbsp;
Ways to connect with Ed Locher:
LinkedIn:&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/edlocher/">https://www.linkedin.com/in/edlocher/</a>
Company Website: <a href="https://purefacts.com/">https://purefacts.com</a>
&nbsp;
How to get more Disruption/Interruption:&nbsp;
Amazon Music - <a href="https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/eccda84d-4d5b-4c52-ba54-7fd8af3cbe87/disruption-interruption">https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/eccda84d-4d5b-4c52-ba54-7fd8af3cbe87/disruption-interruption</a>
Apple Podcast - <a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disruption-interruption/id1581985755">https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disruption-interruption/id1581985755</a>
Spotify - <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/6yGSwcSp8J354awJkCmJlD">https://open.spotify.com/show/6yGSwcSp8J354awJkCmJlD</a>

Disrupting the Workflow: De-Risking Ambitious AI Projects with Lukas Egger

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