Stoking your sense of adventure and kick-starting curiosity is so important as we get older – just ask seven-time world champion surfer Layne Beachley and clinical psychologist Dr Roy Sugarman, who explain how you, too, can embrace new experiences and redefine what's possible, at any age.

About the episode – brought to you by Australian Seniors, in partnership with RSPCA.

Join Jean Kittson for the seventh season of DARE: The Time of Your Life (formerly Life’s Booming), called Better With Age. 

Too often ageing is painted as decline. In reality, Australians are living longer, healthier lives and reshaping what “older” looks like. This series flips the script and shows how ageing is not a dirty word but rather a time to be embraced, featuring interviews with extraordinary over 50s refusing to slip quietly into the background. 

Layne Beachley is a seven-time world champion surfer, who has been pushing the boundaries of women’s surfing since she first stepped on a phone board aged four, going on to win a record breaking six consecutive world titles. Still hitting the waves every day, Layne continues to share her story and help others as a motivational speaker and co-founder of Awake Academy.

Dr Roy Sugarman is a clinical psychologist and clinical neuropsychologist who works with professional athletes, special forces and corporate leaders. He is also head neuroscientist for education technology company, Box Play and a co-founder of the global technology research company, Transhuman Inc, where he holds the patient for how we capture human emotions on data files, as well as having developed a totally non-pathological model for online mental health applications for the Department of Health Services in the state of California together with Kooth USA. 

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For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast 

Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency with Myrtle & Pine

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TRANSCRIPT:

Jean Kittson: Hello and welcome to a new season of DARE: The Time of Your Life, formerly Life’s Booming, brought to you by Australian Seniors, in partnership with RSPCA. For more episodes, visit seniors.com.au/podcast.

In this episode, we're exploring our adventurous side and being bold and taking risks and how it’s not just for your formative years. It's for now, from scaling mountains and learning to surf, to taking a grey gap year and traveling solo.

More Australians over 50 are embracing new experiences and pushing their limits. Proving there is no expiry date when it comes to adventure. So, how can we overcome the, ‘I'm too old for this’ mindset to achieve the confidence to try something new? I mean, it could be something you've always wanted to do or something you did in the past and would like to take up again or something you only just thought of.

Fostering our sense of adventure and kick-starting our curiosity is so important as we get older and to help us understand why it is important is Dr Roy Sugarman. Dr Roy Sugarman is a clinical psychologist and clinical neuropsychologist who works with professional athletes, special forces and corporate leaders. He is also head neuroscientist for education technology company Box Play.

And joining Roy, someone who needs no introduction. Seven time world champion surfer Layne Beachley. Layne has been pushing the boundaries of women surfing since she first stepped on a phone board aged four, and she has gone on to win a record breaking six consecutive world titles.

Although she has been retired from competitive surfing for almost two decades, Layne still hits the waves every day. And Layne has ventured into another career altogether, sharing her story and helping others as a motivational speaker and co-founder of Awake Academy. Welcome Layne. 

Layne Beachley: Thanks Jean 

Jean Kittson: And welcome Roy.Welcome you both. 

Layne Beachley: Thank you. Lovely to be here. 

Jean Kittson: It's so great to have you both here with us and talking about this really important topic about, you know, keeping on pushing ourselves and challenging ourselves. 

Layne Beachley: It was interesting when you said in the intro about, am I too old for this? I had an experience this weekend, actually, you might be able to help me out with this Roy, where I was competing for my board rider’s club and I was one of the oldest in the whole field and I did come out of the water because it wasn't as enjoyable as it normally is, competing.

I did have that mentality. I'm too old for this. Now, do you put that down to the fact that it's just 'cause I'm tired or can I just Are you allowed to be too old for this? 

Roy Sugarman: Well, absolutely. You can choose whatever time. Were you too young for it at four years old?

Layne Beachley: I knew you… 

Roy Sugarman: So if you weren't too young for it at four years old, you Yeah, no, keep going.

But what happens is, if I look at my athletes who keep training through 60 years old that don't show signs of ageing. 

So you've got 90 year olds who run triathlons and do Iron Men simply because they never stopped. I mean, you look at their muscles or you look at their hearts. They’re 30 years old. 

Layne Beachley: Right.

Roy Sugarman: So what's the mindset? Mindset becomes your biggest thing. Doing the difficult thing. 

Layne Beachley: Mm-hmm. 

Roy Sugarman: That's the correct thing to do. When you have a choice and the point is you thought you have a choice. 

Layne Beachley: Well, I do have a choice, and I also believe it's the recovery process and the the space that you have around it.

Because at 90 years old, there's not much else really going on in your life that's gonna distract you too heavily from being able to take good care of yourself. But that starts now. We don't wait till we're 90 before we start taking care of ourselves. So I'm just thinking now that you've said. Now that I'm in my fifties and I'm still competing, I need to actually have more space for preparation and recovery to enjoy it more.

Roy Sugarman: Yeah. I think there are four pillars. There's the mindset pillar, there's nutrition and movement, and recovery is your fourth pillar. 

Jean Kittson: Okay. Right. Say that again. Recovery is your… 

Roy Sugarman: So mindset's your first important part of that. 

Jean Kittson: Yes. And then the next one 

Roy Sugarman: Movement and nutrition are critical as you get older. And even the rot starts early, so when you're young as well. And that fourth pillar is recovery time. So in other words, 

Jean Kittson: Where you rest and put your feet up, 

Roy Sugarman: don't overtrain. 

Jean Kittson: You don't have to work on recovery, do you? 

Layne Beachley: You do. You have to… 

Roy Sugarman: Oh yes, 

Jean Kittson: Oh, you have to work for recovery. 

Roy Sugarman: Well, there's active and passive, right?

Layne Beachley: Exactly. 

Roy Sugarman: Yeah. 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: Oh gosh. Now we're getting technical. Alright. Can you say what active recovery and passive is in a few words that we, people who aren't sports people will understand, please! 

Layne Beachley: Well, active recovery would be things like massage and acupuncture and compression therapy and ice therapy and heat therapy 

Jean Kittson: Ah, 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. That would be the active 

Jean Kittson: And the passive is a glass of wine. 

Jean Kittson: The telly on, the feet up. Right? 

Layne Beachley: Well, preferably coconut water. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. 

Layne Beachley: Not something that's all anti, well, not something that's inflammatory like alcohol. 

Roy Sugarman: So going for a walk. 

Layne Beachley: going for a walk. 

Roy Sugarman: Going for a walk, doing some stretching, doing some yoga.

Very light stuff. Just keeping going, but being active, getting out of bed at the same time, going to sleep at the same time. There's more passive recovery, doing some heart rate variability training. 

 Jean Kittson: Look, I'm feeling too old for this, as you say, I have never sort of worked in that way in a routine or with, you know, that much care.

Layne Beachley: So television doesn't provide that, does it? 

Jean Kittson: Television? No. I don't really watch a lot of television. I do a little, just a lot of, I don't know what I do. Running around, I run around, a headless chook, and then sit down and, you know…

Layne Beachley: With a glass of wine. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah, with a glass of wine. So when you have that pass through your mind – I'm too old for this – this is what happens to, I think a lot of people when, as they, as they get older in later life, they think ‘well, maybe I am too old for this.’ And I don't know whether it's their mindset or other people are putting it on it. You are out surfing with younger people.

Did you get that impression that other people were looking at you like that? Or was, did it come from yourself? 

Layne Beachley: No, it came from myself. I don't care about how people look at me and the judgements that they make, cast upon me. It's more around my opinion of myself. That's the most important. I think it also came down to how my body was feeling and the energy that I was able to put into the performance.

And just the mindset is also a reflection of how I'm feeling within myself. So I've been in a moon boot for a few weeks. Yeah, not ideal preparation either. And so I'm really conscious about allowing that injury to heal, but while still being able to do what I wanna do. And that's another thing that slows us down as we get older, is the injuries and the progression of injuries, and then honoring the injury and allowing it to heal. 

Roy Sugarman: Yeah. And the point that changes as you get older, which is something for younger athletes as well, is you can't be outcome focused.

Cause that is going to be a negative for you. But the doctor says you have to lose weight. That's your outcome. Well, reactant theory, somebody's telling you what to do.

But the important part of what Layne said is that, the opposite of a competitive mindset is psychological flexibility, which means I'm going to take my eyes off the end result. I'm going to just go for process. 

I'm going to enjoy what I'm doing. I'm going to love what I'm doing, how well I do. These other people can beat me.

They're quicker, faster, stronger, younger. Which is very sad, but their rot’s… 

Jean Kittson: We hate them. 

Roy Sugarman: Their rot has already started, you know, and you know, people say, but you're 72, are you slowing down? The answer is, I hate old people, and I'm one of them, you know, some ageist as hell. But what Layne said very important is focus on the process of enjoying what you're doing.

Forget about the outcome. The outcome may be beyond you, today. 

Jean Kittson: Well, this is expectations, isn't it? And the expectations we have on ourselves. So for instance, if you, we've been an elite athlete, like you have, your expectations of yourself must be enormous, and then you retired. How, how did you know when it was time to retire?

Layne Beachley: Well. I knew because I wasn't willing to do the work outside of the water to generate the results that I expected of myself within it. If I have this expectation to perform well and win, then that has to be measured or correlated with the training, the preparation, the nutrition. All of the things that are, that need to be invested into performing my best.

And I wasn't willing to do that work anymore. I was distracted. I was looking over the fence. I was craving a life outside of surfing. Knowing that I wasn't willing to do the work, I could have easily stayed there and just qualified and made up a number of the girls on tour, but that's not who I am.

I perform and I prepare to perform well. I wasn't willing to do the preparation, so it was easy to make that decision. But to that point around expectation, I'm a seven times world champion. I won six in a row, but I won five in fear and two in love. And the two love-based titles were the process driven ones and the five fear-based world titles were outcome driven.

So it's too easy to get stuck. And I say that because I've proven that you can succeed in both mentalities, but one costs you a lot more than the other. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. 

Roy Sugarman: So, and that's where you find the values shift because you have to be valid and authentic as an athlete. And what you've described is how your values shifted and you became a valid and authentic version of yourself at whatever age. Which means you can do the difficult thing that's the correct thing to do. 'cause you had a choice. 

Layne Beachley: Right. 

Roy Sugarman: And when you have a choice, you choose according to your, what's valid for you. Those are your values and that gives you the psychological flexibility – competition doesn't matter so much. Being flexible and enjoying what I'm doing and the return on investment, and what it's gonna cost is a value-based decision. 

Layne Beachley: Right. 

Roy Sugarman: So if you're gonna be happy and cross the line, as we call it, right

Layne Beachley: Yes. 

Roy Sugarman: You cross the line from being a pro to enjoying your life. [00:10:40] 

Layne Beachley: Can't you do both? 

Roy Sugarman: If you're lucky. But you know, I really love the authenticity and validity of what Layne said: I made a values-based decision. I was going to go now for the process, I loved two of those competitions 'cause I was in it for the love. 

Young athletes come up loving what they do, and then money or success or extrinsic motivators get there. Intrinsically, it wasn't motivating for you. You’d mastered it. 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. 

Roy Sugarman: So that sense of mastery, the idea of getting better and better at what's important to you shifted. And that's great. That's authentic. 

Layne Beachley: But to that point around choice, even when you say I don't have a choice, that in itself is a choice. 

Roy Sugarman: Yes. I choose not to choose. 

Layne Beachley: Yes. 

Jean Kittson: That's the easy way, right? 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. I don't have a choice. 

Jean Kittson: We all, I think we're all susceptible to extrinsic

Layne Beachley: motivations.

Jean Kittson: Do I say that? Extrinsic? Motivation and influences. And even in our everyday lives, it's very hard to sort of chill down and be true to yourself and make the choices that you want to make. We are all, even if we haven't been athletes, most people have made enormous sacrifices in their lives for their families or their partners, or maybe they've been, maybe they've had to deal with illnesses and trauma and this. So, to get to a stage in your life where you can understand yourself better, which is what I loved about hearing about your Awake Academy and hearing podcasts about how you have done a lot of work on self-awareness 

And how much that has informed the way you feel about yourself. You no longer when you win a game — when you win a competition, you feel like a winner. When you lose a competition, you feel like a loser. How that's gone from your life and now you're sharing that with others. 

And I think that's a wonderful thing you are doing. Is that giving you a lot of satisfaction. What's that bringing you? Why did you decide to do that? 

Layne Beachley: Well, when you become successful, as you know, (and as you know), I mean, everyone wants to know how you do it. And if you're able to deconstruct it and present it in a relatable way that people can take something from, that’s why I do it. I'm constantly doing the work on myself to then help people see themselves in me.

I'm not putting myself up as the, the beacon and the light of perfection, because I'm as imperfect as you (and you) are. But what I am doing is saying I'm imperfect, but I'm also vulnerable and authentic in that, and I wanna help you become more vulnerable and authentic within yourself. So at Awake Academy, we're really inspired to help people be their best selves to live their best life. 

So to live your best life, you have to know who you are first. To achieve something great in the world, you have to know who you are because once you know who you are, then you can start working towards what you want. But sometimes, especially as kids, we put what we want ahead of ourselves and we lose ourselves in that.

And I did that in those fear-based world titles. I won that first one and then went, okay, to be worthy of something else, I have to be more than what I am. And I lost that sense of self. And that taught me a lot about myself. So I love sharing those stories to help people feel less alone in their struggles, less isolated, less disconnected, and that they can relate to someone that they may be able to draw some knowledge and inspiration from.

Because if you are getting inspiration from me, that's not me creating the inspiration in you, that's you creating the inspiration in you. And I think we put our self worth outside of ourselves too often. 

Jean Kittson: I think you'll provide the tools for people to manage themselves better. Which is what you do, Roy, and you are, you do it all based on the science of how humans behave and what motivates us.

Roy Sugarman: Sure. Because in many ways we have a lot of similarities and differences from animals. So biologically it's quite easy to understand, and that takes the guilt away from people. The idea that when you're a young athlete and you don't get into the team or you don't succeed, I mean, Barcelona Academy will have 600 kids at any one time.

None of them will play for Barcelona, apart from what their parents think, which is ‘all of them are going to play’, you know. So this expectation thing that said the drivenness to outcome, the forgetting, that self-reflection of what is valid and authentic for you is critical to the psychological flexibility of the young athletes or young medical students or young nursing students or otherwise, they start to look at suicide.

We created an app a few years ago, 2017, we launched it, Time Magazine said we saved 23,000 lives. I don’t know how they got the figure, but you know…

Layne Beachley: Go with it

Roy Sugarman: My colleague Amanda, she, went with it, I hid! And she got under 30, you know, 30 influences of the year, and she became CEO of our startup in Delaware and everything else.

The critical thing was vulnerability. We used the app to create vulnerability that people could experience without talking. They just had a swipe left and right to express vulnerability. 

And if you teach, vulnerability is good, that you self-reflect because every first year medical student, nursing student is taught to self-reflect on your values, what is valid and authentic.

If you failed, you failed. It's okay, but did you fail on your own terms? If you left, you left on your own terms. Right? 

If you're going out of the door, it must be the door that you chose to leave, you know, so the crossing the line, the self-reflection that you talk about. So critical, but what are you reflecting on? What is valid and authentic for you at the time. And that's critical to an athlete mentality or success mentality. 

Jean Kittson: It must be critical to older people as well who have spent a life just fulfilling other people's expectations and succeeding in their business or whatever they've done without being elite athletes.

I'm just trying to bring this back to what older people might experience when they retire and then suddenly they're left with themselves and looking at themselves maybe for the first time in their lives. And how are they going to deal with, how are they going to maintain a sense of self-esteem when how they valued themselves, maybe through their work or that has gone.

Roy Sugarman: same with an athlete, same with an older person. It's your sense of identity. You have an athlete's identity. It's what you've been doing from four to whenever you give up. The same with being a lawyer. You started studying at 18 and you now finished at 70, and you are one of those people who goes into work, but the youngsters don't need you.

So maintaining your sense, and you mentioned a very important word at the beginning of this whole thing, you said curiosity. The opposite of avoidance of all of this catastrophe of the loss of your identity is curiosity of being caught up now. Okay, What is valid and authentic for me now that I'm no longer a lawyer or a long distance athlete?

As long as you true yourself, that's where the mindset comes in. That's where awake is so important – is wake up to the idea that you are not just an athlete. You are not just a lawyer, self-reflect on what's valid and authentic for you as a person, and then begin the next phase of your life.  

Layne Beachley: And ideally wake up to that before you become the athlete or before you become the lawyer.

Roy Sugarman: Hopefully have that mindset about what is going to be your intrinsic mastery. That whole idea of getting better and better at what's important to you is critical, not what's important to the crowds or anybody. What's important to you? Now, get better at it. 

So human growth starts when a 72-year-old or an 80-year-old decides they're going to do a whole new and complex thing. Create the brain cell connections and off you go.  

Jean Kittson: Oh, so it's never too late to start a new and complex activity or interest. 

Roy Sugarman: You can't afford not to because you're starting that process of God's waiting room. You know, that older people tell me and when they come in miserable with highly successful lives, you know, perhaps thinking of the only one or two things they messed up.

Then we go, what are you gonna do in the next five, 10, 15, 20, 30 years? Because if you can write a book like Eddie Jaku at 101, gets published in 26 languages, have your own TED talk, ageing, novel complexity. Start, go. You know why stop. 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. Why do we stop? 

Jean Kittson: Well, this is it. Is it our negative thoughts about ourselves and our capacity?

Is it physical? I mean, we don't wanna break anything, that's for sure. I mean, is it purely, what is stopping us trying new things or having adventures or… 

 Layne Beachley: Fear. 

Roy Sugarman: And I wanna bounce this off Layne. We have an interesting phenomenon in our brain as we compute emotions and logic separately. And emotions are stronger.

When we look at a goal, we tend to see the big picture, which is overwhelming. And there are two aspects. How desirable is this change for you and what is your perceived ability and the interventions are – how desirable, love to do it; perceived ability, it's too hard, it's too big, it's gonna be too difficult.

What happened to baby steps? What happened to micro goals? So the answer is we get this ambivalence. The clash between ‘I would really love to do it but it’s gonna be too hard. I'm too old.’ 

But what about the desirability? Well look at the emotional drivers, not the rational ones: I'm too old.

The emotional ones: ‘I'd really love to do this’ (process based, might never get there). 

And second of all, your perceived ability is based on age? No, it's based on smaller goals that you can achieve all the way to the big one. So if I decide I'm gonna play Wimbledon next year, at 72. You'd say you're an idiot. On the other hand, if it's process based… 

Layne Beachley: Can you play tennis? 

Roy Sugarman: Not a chance, but I'll get a coach 

Layne Beachley: Then I think you're crazy.

Roy Sugarman:  I'll get a coach, I'll go every day and whatever else. 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. 

Roy Sugarman: And by the end of the year I'll be playing at a club maybe. 

Layne Beachley: Mm-hmm. 

Roy Sugarman: I'll be playing with other people and beating them, and I'll be loving tennis. I'm never getting to Wimbledon, but the process is gonna be great. 

Layne Beachley: Process will be the same too. 

Roy Sugarman: The goal's irrelevant, the process. 

Layne Beachley: But if we get ahead of ourselves. And I'd actually love to ask you a question about this. So, when we set these goals for ourselves, sometimes they can be more audacious than others.

So perhaps we set ourselves a big goal, such as becoming a world champion at something. And there I think there's two trains of, there's two modes of motivation. There's of course the extrinsic and the intrinsic motivation. The extrinsic motivation can be a force of fear to a degree. 

Roy Sugarman: Yes. 

Layne Beachley: Right.

So if I think about athletes who have a fear of failure versus athletes that have a fear of success, the outcome in my mentality, and you are the trained psychologist here, so you might be able to help me here, understand this even better. The outcome, the associated outcome of success is so scary that they end up sabotaging themselves.

I had a fear of success. Fortunately, what you fear, you attract. 

Roy Sugarman: Yes. 

Layne Beachley: So I was, but I became aware of it so it no longer governed my behaviours versus the fear of failure, which gives us reason to just stop. 

Roy Sugarman: Yes. 

Layne Beachley: Because we've convinced ourselves over and over and over again that we're never gonna make it.

So is the lesson here for anyone at any age when they hit that point of tension? That they become curious in that moment. And so what's the best question that they can ask themselves to step forward? 

Roy Sugarman: Why not me? The problem is we all have some kind of an image of ourselves and Scott Peltin from Tignum and I had this discussion for years in Arizona.

We all have an image of ourselves. And to succeed, we have to exceed that image. We have to go past the image. As we do that, we become anxious. 

And elite athletes, as you’ll know, waiting for the right wave, you know, counting all of those, everybody catching their waves, you know, waiting and going through that first heat.

Then you've got the second heat. You know, you're so close to success, the fear.

The idea is the first question is, why not me? Because other people do it, and other people might always be more talented, quicker, whatever. But you have to exceed your own image to succeed. And every time you do that, every time you challenge yourself, you need to be curious about how anxious you're gonna be.

'Cause every change and every growth comes with anxiety. That's where you go for what's valid. I'm going to be curious just about how anxious this makes me. 

Then live with it and see. That means psychological flexibility, staying in the moment, being curious about the moment and not worrying about the outcome anymore.

Jean Kittson: Not worrying, being vulnerable, taking a chance, you know, dispel fear as well. 

Roy Sugarman: Fear is natural, the fear of success, that fear of exceeding your image. The fear of most of the athletes I've trained will never win a gold medal. Not even come close to a medal at the Olympics and have been four times and loved every second of it. Even the cardboard beds!

Whatever, whatever it is, why not me? If you want to change careers, if you want to become this, you wanna do that. We have the children headed for HSC and we say, well. So you don't get a great HSC. You can get into any course, you want to just go and do another degree and do well at it.

Jean Kittson: Exactly. 

Roy Sugarman: Do something you enjoy and love. So the critical thing is you get older. There is no point going to a bootcamp that you're going to hate, where some young blonde, spray tan person with who counts your reps and and has a mobile phone available to prompt them with AI as to what you should be doing.

They should be watching you very carefully. Do you love the exercise? Do you love what you're gonna do? Because if you love it, you're probably good at it. And if you're good at it, you probably love it. So now that you've finished your career, now that you've finished your whatever, and you crossed the line, why not you?

The answer is be curious as to what this is going to demand from you. Do the difficult thing that's the right thing to do because you have a choice. The easy thing: not gonna work. 

Jean Kittson: What would you say to people whose family may say, ‘you shouldn't do this, Mum!’ Or ‘you shouldn't do this Dad,’ or ‘you are too old for this.’

What would you say to people who have external pressures about helping, about trying something new? 

Layne Beachley: Why not me? 

Jean Kittson: Yes, same. 

Layne Beachley: I have plenty of people in my family and friends circle that say that to me. 

Roy Sugarman: You should be slowing down.

Layne Beachley: Yeah, of course. 

Jean Kittson: What do you mean? 

Layne Beachley: Well, you're too old for this, or you shouldn't be doing that.

Roy Sugarman: Or you should slow down. You should slow down. The reason is they're scared for you. 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. 

Roy Sugarman: So they're trying to stop you doing what would make you happy, which is to be curious and take risks. 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. They're projecting their fears onto you. They're trying to protect themselves, not you. 

Jean Kittson: Well of course they don't wanna be a carer of someone. You know, in a wheelchair, if you jumped out of a plane or… No. Jump out of a plane. I know it sounds, you know, I wouldn't do it, but people love it. 

Layne Beachley:  I love it. It's great fun. 

Roy Sugarman: If it was burning, I'd jump, but… 

Jean Kittson: Yeah!

Roy Sugarman: But think you've gotta be positive. Layne was in a boot for quite a while. That means she could float better.

You know, you could float if you came off the board I on that board

Layne Beachley: I never surfed in a boot! Never swam in it either.

Roy Sugarman: A flotation device. 

Layne Beachley: Yeah, don't need a flotation device! 

Roy Sugarman: So yeah, just think of fear and human fear and what it might be based on. And that self-reflection is, ‘what am I scared of? What am I afraid of? What have I got to lose?’ 

As you get older and older, you might feel that you have a lot to lose, that you are more vulnerable. But that's not true. 

Layne Beachley: Why isn't it true? 

Roy Sugarman: Why are you more vulnerable? You're more vulnerable to risk taking because of expectations of what people do because of ageism, because ‘old people don't do that’.

Roy Sugarman:  But, you know, the thing is about getting old and not doing things is, the excuses are like, ‘why don't we ride a bicycle?’ Well, I don't have a bicycle.

Layne Beachley: Yeah. 

Roy Sugarman: Or I'm scared I might fall off or whatever else. So the critical reason is ‘why not me, is this valid and authentic for me?’ Because that will bolster your being older and ageing so-called gracefully. Yes, you are running against biology, you're running against everything. But the most critical thing is your mindset of what is authentic and valid for you, not for the next 72-year-old.

Because by that nature I should not be, you know, running to Bondi 8kms there and back up hill, which I hate, but my dog loves it. So yeah. 

Jean Kittson: Well, keeping curiosity and challenges in your life is so important because we're always learning and otherwise, as you said, we're just waiting. What are we waiting for: the end.

But when you said about fear, that is really important because it translates to so many different aspects of the lives of people as they get older, including, I always hear, you know, the family saying ‘oh, my mum doesn't want any help around the house, and, and I know she needs help.’ But that comes from fear too, that it's a thin edge of the wedge.

If you let someone come in and help you with the washing up, it means that you're not coping and then, then your family will put you in a home. That's the outcome. You know, that's a big fear that you will lose your autonomy. 

But in this way, it sounds like to maintain your autonomy and your independence and maintain your confidence, it's important to have challenges and challenge yourself and make your own decisions. 

Layne Beachley: And being realistic about what those challenges are.

Jean Kittson: Yes, 

Roy Sugarman: Because avoidance, the opposite of curiosity is avoidance. 

And avoidance is staying safe. But staying safe means learning nothing. We learn nothing from success. You learn from the times you fall off the board. 

Layne Beachley: I learned a little bit about success, from success. 

Roy Sugarman: I've never had any, so how would I know? 

Layne Beachley: Wow, rubbish.

It's funny that you know that you say you learn nothing from success. I learned a lot from success, but learning how to lose taught me how to win. 

Roy Sugarman: Yes, 

Layne Beachley: And it's those failures that we fear as we get older because of a variety of different reasons. Yet if we maintain our sense of curiosity in those moments, then we get to ask ourselves, is it valid and is it authentic to me? So when I came outta the water last weekend, having failed, in my eyes, because I did not perform the way I wanted to perform, 

I was able to detach from that and just ask myself, is this still a valid and authentic place that I wanna be? Is this still a valuable and authentic environment that I wanna subject myself to?

Jean Kittson: Yeah. Do you want to feel like you failed? 

Layne Beachley: Well, no, it's not about feeling like, is it still, do I keep competing, right?

Jean Kittson:  Yes. 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. Because failure is the stepping stone to success. Failure is the necessary part because understanding how you adapt and approach failure enables you to embrace success.

But if we don't take the failures in our stride, then we stop trying and we stop putting ourselves, we stop it. We stop taking risks. 

Roy Sugarman: And being realistic is testing that. 

Layne Beachley: Yes. Yeah. 

Roy Sugarman: That curiosity is, I'm going to test and see if my daughter's right and I shouldn't be doing that. You know, I'm gonna test those limits, which is again, Scott Peltin's view of exceeding your own image is important. It comes with anxiety; living with that is the curiosity. 

Are we going to test those limits and see, because we don't know what we don't know. And if we do know, or you know, Lang’s dictum or whoever it was: if you don’t know you don't know, you think you do know. 

And if you don't know you do know, you think you don't! 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. 

Roy Sugarman: So test it and find out what you know about yourself, which [00:31:00] is that critical self-evaluation again. And then ask, ‘well, why not me? I'm going to test that.’ 

Layne Beachley: Jean, is there something that you are wanting to do that you're fearful of stepping into?

Jean Kittson: Everything probably. Well there's something I've always wanted to do, and then I always swore I'd do it by the time I was 40 and then I didn't, and now I'm 70, and now I think it's probably too late. But I've always, but it may not be. I've always wanted to sculpt. I love doing things with my hands

Layne Beachley: As in clay, sculpting? 

Jean Kittson: As in I think I would probably start with Clay and then move on to sort of ten storey bronzes. I dunno, I'd start small.

Layne Beachley: Why do you think it's too late? 

Jean Kittson: I feel like I have lost capacity in like physical 

Layne Beachley: Oh, 

Jean Kittson: I feel like it's a physical thing, not a mental thing. I know what I would sculpt 

Layne Beachley: Right. 

Jean Kittson: I know what I would do, but I can, I feel like I couldn't do it physically and that's sad, because I… sculpture moves me when I see sculpture, I'm moved.

But then it might be like, I do it and then I don't, I don't get moved except to tears. What a mess. You know? I suppose I'm scared of failing too. 

Layne Beachley: Ah, so 

Roy Sugarman: Well let's turn that around and say sculpting is going to strengthen your hands.

Jean Kittson: Well, that would be good. I'm getting a little bit of arthritis. 

Roy Sugarman: Good. So you need to use your hands. Movement is really good for arthritis and clay, and then work your way to Italian marble and really terrorise yourself. 

Jean Kittson: Yes, just be a Michelangelo. That would be amazing. 

Layne Beachley: So as a psychologist, if Jean was sitting opposite you in your room, and she's telling you this story…

Roy Sugarman: She has an image of the strength of her hands she hasn't tested, she hasn't been curious about testing her hands. I would get you to test the strength of your hands and to increase the strength of your hands and your range of movement, and deal with the arthritis and strengthen everything, and then get busy with clay.

Why not? 

Layne Beachley: Because the first thing that I think about, yeah, it's all about me, is that I wanted to build the strength in my body again because menopause stripped me of my strength and I surrendered to menopause and just went, oh, that's my deal. Done. And then I thought, I wanna get strong. I need to go back to the gym.

And going back to the gym terrified me because I didn't know what to do. 

Jean Kittson: Yes. 

Layne Beachley: I've always had a personal trainer. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. 

Layne Beachley: So I rang a friend and said, I need a personal trainer. And then, I was afraid to fail in front of my personal trainer, but I was also afraid to feel weak, but I thought to feel strong, I have to embrace the fact that I am weaker right now, but if I keep doing the thing and showing up and building my capacity, then I will become stronger over time.

Jean Kittson: Yeah. 

Layne Beachley: Same thing with your hands. 

Jean Kittson: Not look at the big picture. Yes. Because that's the other thing, you're afraid that what I make is not what I have in my mind. 

Layne Beachley: Yes. Right. But you can make it over time. 

Jean Kittson: Yes.  

Layne Beachley: But detach, as Roy said… 

Jean Kittson: maybe it's not important. Maybe the process is what we've been talking. 

Roy Sugarman: You'll find that out in the process.

Jean Kittson: I'll find it out if I just do it. Just do it.

Roy Sugarman: Why not you? Why not you? 

Jean Kittson: Yeah, why not? 

Layne Beachley: We're gonna ring a sculptor tomorrow. We're gonna get you booked in.

Jean Kittson: Oh, I just had this, I felt like my heart just jumped into my throat! 

Roy Sugarman: Shows you how important it is to, to become that creative and see something growing outside of you and being able to change it. 

Jean Kittson: Manipulate it

Roy Sugarman: Create a vision of what it should be. And you know, I mean, Michelangelo took, you know, this horrible piece of marble that somebody threw out and he saw David in it. 

Jean Kittson: Well, thank you so much for that encouragement. alright. I think I'll do it. I'll report back. Yeah. 

Layne Beachley: Please do. We'd love to, I wanna see the sculpture. Because if you think about the audience that's listening, they're probably saying, well, you know, it's all right for those two. You know, they've gone on and achieved greatness. Yeah. What about people who have predominantly lived a stagnant life or haven't really achieved anything that they consider to be big or audacious or great?

Jean Kittson:  I would say, first of all, I'll just challenge you on the word stagnant because most people live lives that have a whole lot going on. 

Layne Beachley: Yes, that's true

Jean Kittson: All the time. 

Layne Beachley: Thank you. 

Jean Kittson: And dealing with lots of stuff. 

Layne Beachley: No such thing as stagnant. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah.  

Layne Beachley: No, not if you're still alive. You're not, you're not being stagnant.

Jean Kittson: But it's a really good word because people encourage you to stagnation as you get older. Yes. They'll give you all these facts about what you can't do any longer or you shouldn't, and your bones and your brain and your reactions. So you're constantly getting this negative thing about ageing. 

You're not actually getting a lot of positive things, you know, facts where you are, you know, Roy, you've got all the facts and evidence. All the evidence seems to be, we should embrace ageing and just, you know, behave our age and sit down and be conversational and put your feet up and wear a dressing gown and listen to marching bands or something. You know, like… 

Roy Sugarman: I have three things to say to that - poo poo poo. 

Layne Beachley: Okay. 

Roy Sugarman: You know, heaven for forbid. Because yeah, the stereotyping and everybody's different. Everybody's life is different. Some people come to me at the end of their working careers and say, I don't believe I've achieved anything, and everything else, and everything else.

So the issue’s across the lifespan – and the rot starts early – is to decide, especially you mentioned earlier, athletes or any human being, decide what's important to you. Self-reflect. It can change from minute to minute, hour to hour in a day, but if you're not being authentic and valid with yourself, you're gonna land up in the psychologist rooms, anxious or miserable.

The first question I ask them is, ‘what's valid and authentic?’ Because when you get miserable after a life of maybe not doing much, what are you really saying is that what happened throughout your life wasn't valid for you, it wasn't authentic for you, and now you are old and you are Kentucky Fried Chicken Kernel Saunders at 65, and you are gonna make chicken.

Well, Mrs. Fields’s husband has walked out the door and she's gonna make cookies. $400 million worth of cookies, you know? So the whole idea is if you are in that stasis, let's call it stasis, rather than… 

Layne Beachley:  Yeah. I love that, statis

Jean Kittson: Yes. Stasis.

Roy Sugarman: Nice word from stagnation. Yes. And if you're not as spritely, bounding around beautifully being spritely, then think about the fact that it's never too late to go and look at what is valid and authentic and what isn't.

Then have the courage to commit yourself to a committed life from that moment on. 

Give you a quick example, and have a client who is a great scientist. He was nominated for Nobel Prizes. God knows what, 84 years old decided it was time to die because all he wanted to do was play the violin [00:38:00] and he was good at it.

So we found this bus in Israel that travels around to schools, introducing kids to classical music, the whole orchestra of old people like him. He spent the last nine years of his life doing that, playing to kids and nevermind his organic chemistry. It was never valid and authentic for him. 

Layne Beachley: What chemistry?

Roy Sugarman: No, his whole life wasn't valid and authentic, but the violin or photography or people [in their] 70s start painting and yes, actually paint beautifully. So why not? 

Layne Beachley: I feel that the beauty in this conversation is inspiring people to embrace the challenge of embracing their passion and connecting with what that is.

Then giving themselves permission to explore that. Without the expectation to be the best in it or to be great at it. 

And perhaps, you know, in childhood and trauma is trauma, pain is pain. We've all experienced moments within our childhood that are still playing out to this day. And if we can start to learn to tap into what those stories are, and there's about seven or eight of them that we keep coming back to, then we can start to disengage from them and detach from them and start to write a different story. 

But if we're allowing old behavioural patterns from childhood to dictate who we are today as an adult, then we are missing out the chance, we are delaying the opportunity to embrace those passions.

And the number one regret of the dying is I wish I had the courage to live a life that I love. 

Roy Sugarman: And that means embracing a narrative that is your narrative. Not your kids, your family, whatever. You tell your own story and you make that story go where you want. It's your narrative, it's your story. And if the story of your last 50 years wasn't good enough, tell another story.

Layne Beachley: Yes. 

Roy Sugarman: And that storytelling of the beginning and the middle and the end is yours to decide. So the courage and curiosity and exceeding the image that is the old story, why not? This is living. 

Jean Kittson: I feel that if you don't sort of confront your fears, either physical or emotional, psychological or spiritual, existential. If you don't confront them, then you're going to live a fearful life, and that's going to really limit you. 

And it's probably going to impact your family too, because as you get older, you may be a grandparent and you may have great influence on your grandchildren. You might have already made all your mistakes with your children, but it's never too late to learn about yourself and how… a better way of living.

Layne Beachley: Well, fears are valid too. 

Roy Sugarman: Yeah, fears are valid and they're acceptable and they're part of life. And there are warning signs like pain, pain and fear, all the same thing. These are warning signs, but we don't have to necessarily live our lives according to them. 

Just think of pain: 30% is dealt with by medication. 70% is psychosocial. So the reason psychologists deal with pain is we've got a 70% window there to help someone get away from chronic pain. 30% is medication, 70% according to [Rachel] Zoffness and other researchers. 70% is the interaction with another human being that normalises the pain and anxiety and the sadness into the here and now.

Now that you have the pain, accept it. What now becomes critical? However, your value shifted. What's important to you now? That's self-reflection. Again, what is important to me, given these circumstances. Yes. You're afraid I'm not worried about that. 

Jean Kittson: Well, that's great to, yeah. Not worried about fear. Not to be fearful of fear. Well, fear…

Roy Sugarman: We have, yes 

Jean Kittson: Yes 

Roy Sugarman: Yes. Best statement by an American president. If you're afraid of fear, you are paralyzed. You are static. 

Jean Kittson: The other thing, I suppose for older people, and I keep saying older people later, life probably is, you know, I could say…

Layne Beachley: Mature? Can you say that?

Jean Kittson: Mature people. 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. What is the term? 

Jean Kittson: Well, some of us are mature! I like these… Those of us in later life maybe, rather than older because we don't feel it, is how to maintain a sense of purpose. 

And I know you speak about purpose being, I think I heard you, but please tell me it's values and people with the same values in your life.

Roy Sugarman: That use mastery, like mindedness and growth. 

Jean Kittson: And growth. And that gives you purpose. 

Roy Sugarman: Yes. That's the model for the state of California, which is the thing we defend most, is the idea that what we do makes a difference. If we embark on actions that have no outcome for us at all, and we don't enjoy the process, then mastery disappears and a sense of autonomy disappears.

So you can define purpose as this progressive realisation of ‘what I do makes a difference surrounded by people who have the same values as me.’ But the guiding, what is this autonomy? It's around the things that matter to me. So that defines your purpose, right.

Layne Beachley:  So values mastery

Roy Sugarman: Like-mindedness, like-mindedness, you need people around you.

You need your squad who think the same way, need your dreams as you do dreams. You need your team, your squad, you know? 

Layne Beachley: And it was course growth. Growth, of course. 

Roy Sugarman: Yes. Mastery getting better and better at what matters to you, 

Layne Beachley: Right? But if what matters to you is being comfortable, how do you grow in that state?

Roy Sugarman: Well, you get really good at being comfortable, 

Layne Beachley: But if being comfortable is eating food that's not great and sitting on the couch and binge-watching television until like… People give up on life, as they get older. 

Roy Sugarman: They do the easy things. They do the easy that are the wrong things to do because they don't understand they have a choice, 

Layne Beachley: Right

Roy Sugarman: When we get people who are miserable, depressed, whatever, we have to then motivate them. In other words, as you said, inspire some drive in them. But what it is is emotional. So we work on emotional drivers for someone like that. They have to find, you know, the why and then they can get the how. But it's not something we give them.

We are just visiting people's lives. When they change, it is on their own terms. So we help them tell a story, and in that story, they become the hero who gets off the couch, who stops eating for the most part. They have to find that purpose driven by values. So we help them with values. We help them to make the argument.

I can't make the argument for them. I'm just visiting people's lives. 

Layne Beachley: You're just providing the framework. 

Roy Sugarman: Yep. I paint a frame and they do the artwork themselves. 

Layne Beachley: They do the art. 

Jean Kittson: So can you actually, I was, because I was going to ask you, what would you say to people to help motivate them who are thinking of trying a new venture or adventure?

The trying to challenge themselves. What would you say to people who were overcome with: I can't do this. What would each of you say? 

Layne Beachley: I'd like to hear the psychologist for this first. 

Roy Sugarman: So think of the big picture. I take them out of the big picture immediately, because if you're getting older, the big picture is not a good one.

If you're going to look at it because you all go out the same way. Okay. So the whole idea is don't look at the big picture. When you're young. You can look at big pictures 'cause it seems endless. As you get older. You need to look at smaller and smaller bites of pictures, which will still get you.

To the big picture. But if you look at the big picture, your own emotional sense of being overwhelmed comes in quickly. I want this, but it's too hard. Technically, ambivalence. So when they're sitting in my room, obviously they're not happy. When they are happy, well, I don't see them. I leave them alone. 

Layne Beachley: They leave you alone.

Roy Sugarman: Yeah. But obviously, people come when what's happening in their life is not valid for them. And then we have that discussion of, ‘okay, what's gonna be important for you now?’ 

But don't look at the big picture. It's overwhelming and that sense of self-efficacy, that what I do makes a difference – Bandura 1952, whatever it was – that feeling of loss of control, of loss of self-efficacy is the scary thing that we have to address. Because then you're not living life according to values; other people's values are driving you and it's not working. 

Layne Beachley: And if you've lived your whole life according to other people's values, because you're conforming to fit in to belong, which is what our biggest driving force is with every one of us. We wanna belong. We wanna feel safe. If you don't feel safe, then you're gonna continuously find ways to manufacture or create that environment for yourself. 

Jean Kittson: Safety. 

Layne Beachley: Safety. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. Which might be closing the door. 

Layne Beachley: It might, I mean, it could be

Jean Kittson: Isolating yourself sometimes

Layne Beachley: Yes. And sometimes we all need to

Roy Sugarman: It’s avoidance. 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. It's avoidance. Yeah. Unless you're an introvert. 

Roy Sugarman: Which is good avoidance. 

Layne Beachley: But, I mean, everything comes at a cost, right? Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. And I look at, for example, my professional surfing career as when I reflect on those world title campaigns, the cost of doing, of winning world titles with an outcome focused mentality was significant. 

To the point now I'm in my fifties in constant pain management because I didn't listen. The body whispers before it screams, and my body was screaming and I still wasn't tuning in because I had this ‘must win at all cost’ mentality.

And that's what cost us our joy, our connection, our sense of belonging, our sense of self, our health, our wellbeing. I compromised, I sacrificed it because the outcome was more important to me than my health and wellbeing.

My ability to actually achieve the goal was put second. So to this, so to Roy's point about being really clear around who you are and getting outta the outcome driven mentality and just asking yourself what's valuable to me, that's the gold right there. 

Roy Sugarman: And when you look at that big picture that I mentioned earlier, and what you've just said is so critical with every elite person and every ordinary person, when you look at the big picture, what you're seeing is the sacrifices you would have to make. 

Layne Beachley: Yes. 

Roy Sugarman: And that can be really daunting

Layne Beachley: Overwhelming

Roy Sugarman: And that's where your negative emotions come in and you go, that's gonna be too hard. And that's where meaning and values and emotional drivers come in. Because if I'm going to sacrifice, if I'm going to give up things. I love for something I love more, I better be clear on why I'm doing it. 

Jean Kittson: It's really never too late.

I mean, that's the point. There's no, what I'm getting from both of you with the science and the experience, there's no expiry date on pushing ourselves, challenging ourselves. And certainly it'll give us an expiry date if we don't maintain our curiosity and if we don't go out there and, and be true to ourselves.

So I feel like we've just had the most amazing therapy session. I’ve really valued your experience and your expertise, both of you. And thank you for talking, speaking with us all today. Is there anything else you would like to say to add to this, something for the listeners… Is there anything that you would like to say?

Layne Beachley: One last thing I'd like to say, one last piece of advice would be don't let the old person creep in. 

Jean Kittson: Yes. That's such a great expression. I love that expression. 

Roy Sugarman: I saw a video of a 95-year-old choreographer from New York. She said, if you give old age an inch, it takes all of you. And then they said to her, when you're gonna retire, she says, when it's a non-shockable rhythm.

Jean Kittson: That's fantastic. That's really fantastic.  

Roy Sugarman: So thank you so much for having me. Certainly. And 

Jean Kittson: Thank you. 

Layne Beachley: Thank you Roy

Roy Sugarman: Fantastic to have you, Layne. 

Jean Kittson: Thank you Dr. Roy Sugarman, and thank you Layne Beachley. 

Layne Beachley: Thank you, Jane Kittson. 

Jean Kittson: Thank you to this week's guests, Layne Beachley and Dr Roy Sugarman. 

You've been listening to DARE: The time of your life, brought to you by Australian seniors.

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May your life be DARING. I'm Jean Kittson.