In this episode of DARE: The Time of Your Life, we are looking at Breaking New Ground. At an age when many people are beginning to look for the off switch, some over 50s are inspiring us by dreaming bigger than ever. Like our guest Jamie Durie. The landscape designer and TV host isn’t just  'not winding down', he’s completely upskilling and re-tooling. Join his conversation with host Jean Kittson alongside clinical psychologist and men’s mental health expert Dr Zac Seidler. 

About the episode – brought to you by Australian Seniors, in partnership with RSPCA.

Join Jean Kittson for the seventh season of DARE: The time of your life (formerly Life’s Booming), called Better With Age. 

Too often ageing is painted as decline. In reality, Australians are living longer, healthier lives and reshaping what “older” looks like. This series flips the script and shows how ageing is not a dirty word but rather a time to be embraced, featuring interviews with extraordinary over 50s refusing to slip quietly into the background.

Award-winning landscape designer and sustainability advocate Jamie Durie was once a performer with all-male revue group Manpower, before he realised his passion for horticulture and garden design. Now Jamie is navigating the beautiful chaos of a young family in his 50s, while revolutionising the way we build our homes in TV’s Jamie Durie’s Future House. 

Dr Zac Seidler is a clinical psychologist, researcher and leading men’s mental health expert. He currently holds dual roles as Global Director of Research at Movember and Associate Professor with Orygen at the University of Melbourne.

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For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast 

Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency

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TRANSCRIPT:

Jean Kittson: Welcome back to the podcast, DARE: the Time of Your Life, formerly Life's Booming, brought to you by Australian seniors in partnership with RSPCA. 

For more episodes, visit seniors.com au/podcast. 

Hi, I'm Jean Kittson, and this season is called Better With Age, where we are flipping the script and showing you how ageing is not a dirty word, rather it's a time to be embraced. 

In this episode, we are looking at Breaking New Ground. At an age when many people are beginning to look for the off switch, some over 50s are inspiring us by dreaming bigger than ever. 

Take our guest, Jamie Durie, the landscape designer and TV host isn't just not winding down, he's completely upskilling and retooling. From navigating the beautiful chaos of a young family in his fifties to revolutionising the way we build our homes with high tech prefab design, Jamie is living proof getting older doesn't automatically mean it's time to start downsizing. 

Also with us is Dr. Zac Seidler, a clinical psychologist and leading men's mental health expert. Zac is also global Director of Men's Health Research at Movember. Jamie and Zac, I'm so happy to welcome you both to the studio. Welcome. 

Jamie Durie: Thank you. Yeah, great to be here. Good to meet you, Zac. 

Zac Seidler: You too, Jamie. Can’t wait to chat.

Jean Kittson: I know. Well, it's so exciting to hear what you're doing, Jamie, and you know when people are usually in their fifties, I suppose they start thinking about maybe slowing down or… never crossed your mind?

Jamie Durie: Well, I think we, as men, and I'm hoping I'm not alone here, Zac. We only really start working it out in our 40s, and by the time you then reach 50, you go, Hmm, okay, now I know exactly where I wanna land and exactly what I wanna focus on. And I've got the experience behind me where I've made a few mistakes, learnt along the way, and I can apply with accuracy and shoot with a rifle – not a shotgun at your goals, if you like. Because the idea of, kind of, focusing in on the things that I think you’re most passionate about and that are most relevant in your place is, I think, distilling everything you've learned throughout your career.

Jean Kittson: Yeah. It's something you come to with experience. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: And as you say, making maybe some mistakes, but then refining, fine tuning where your passion is, is this, like what you are doing now with this prefab. Is it the Prefab housing where you are also doing something called the Infinity Garden? 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: What's… tell us about this project?

Jamie Durie: Well this, you know, Future House is the name of the show, and we're now at Channel Nine, which is brilliant, and we've had an amazing season. 

Basically it's an exploration of modern methods of construction and if we are sitting in the building crisis right now, the housing crisis, and we've got, you know, 1.2 million homes to build over the next five years – how on earth are we gonna achieve that target when we're 87,000 trades short of achieving that target with our conservative ways of building houses?

Our houses need to be more energy efficient. They need to be more cost effective. They need to be more structurally sound. They need to be more resilient with increased weather attacks, you know, over the last five, 10 years, we've all seen the floods, the fires, the storms all increasing. And then how do we make it more affordable for everyday Australians so that we can all, you know, get off this renting bus and actually start to own a piece of Australia and be proud of it, but make it more affordable. 

So that’s what it’s really about. Prefab has come a long way. We're no longer talking about those archaic old ‘kit homes’, they're now beautifully designed, sophisticated homes, some of them, which you can buy at a hardware store at Bunnings these days. 

Jean Kittson: Wow. 

Jamie Durie: I don't know whether you've seen that or not, but it's amazing what's happening in this space and we're playing catch up and we wanted to develop a format to talk about those where we could, you know, pass on some of these learnings and create intelligent DIY design where Australians could learn from what we are learning from and help progress the solutions around solving the building crisis. 

Jean Kittson: Well, I can hear that you are using all your background in, you know, gardens and landscaping and building, but also a maturity that, you know, and in experience and knowledge that comes with age as you personally. And then you taking this knowledge and experience and then putting it into the community for a really important community benefit. 

How does that… does that make you feel good about your work? Is that what you mean by focusing more, in your 50s?

Jamie Durie: Oh, for sure. This is the show I've always wanted to make. Having worked on 56 primetime shows throughout my career, which is a lot, when you only started at kind of 28. It feels like everything's come full circle because, you know, we're not just inspiring people to take up new ideas, but we're instilling them with education and awareness around how to create more sustainable homes, how to tread more lightly on the planet, how to reduce our energy costs, how to tackle the cost of living crisis and how to get more Australian families into more homes faster.

Jean Kittson: That's amazing. I mean, from a person… personally, that's a lot of work, Jamie. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson:You don't feel like you should be slowing down, spending more time, you know… 

 Jamie Durie: …weirdly 

Jean Kittson: …pottering around. 

Jamie Durie: No, weirdly, the more I dive into this, the more passionate I become and passion creates energy. You know, it just comes from somewhere.

You would know this, Zac. You know, I mean, what you guys have created is astonishing and the people's lives that you've touched through the funds raised throughout Movember is absolutely mind blowing.  

Zac Seidler: Thanks Jamie, I appreciate that. It's been a community effort in a very similar vein, and I think Australians can really get around that type of… 

Jamie Durie: …Yeah…

Zac Seidler: …of grassroots community building when you provide them with the right resources to do so. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: But I love the idea that, you know, I don't, I think that slowing down, that idea of becoming 50 or 60 and starting to slow down, especially because life expectancy is increasing – thank God. 

Jamie Durie: …Yeah…

Zac Seidler: …We're moving, you know, into longer lives, hopefully healthier lives as well.

The data is pretty clear that when men start to slow down, bad things happen, to be honest. Retirement is not a good vibe for lots of guys because they have not built the scaffolding around them. They often haven't spent a lot of time with their friends or family over the years because they've been in this provider protector mode for so long, that when it slows down, they go, okay, I'm gonna play golf, I guess, or something and I've never played it before. 

And how does this work? And who are the guys I'm gonna call? And so, I really like the idea of seeing eras of your life and the fact that as you are maturing and ageing, you are becoming more dynamic in ways and kind of getting rid of the stuff that was a waste of energy, the stress, the anxiety, the trying to do a thousand things at once that I'm probably still doing and hopefully we'll get rid of at some point. But that ability to work out where you want to spend your time and energy for, you know, the next era and then there'll be another one after.

That's so important. And I think, you know, Movember has been around for over 20 years and we're now moving into the next stage. We were just this young kid on the block, you know, kind of breaking stuff and trying to work out what's the best way to show up in the charity space and really change men's lives, and it started with a practical joke. It starts with, with something that everyone… 

Jean Kittson: …A pun, yeah. 

Zac Seidler: A pun. Exactly. And it moves from that conversation starter really into thousands of programs and a billion dollars plus that we've fundraised over the years. And so many people say that men don't wanna get around this stuff.

You know, it's like, oh… Typically it is women leading charity dinners and doing fundraising events and we kind of broke that mould and suggested that if you provide the right framework, something that is about banter and community and mateship and the things that matters to guys and their health. You know, health by stealth is always what we say…

Jean Kittson: Yeah, health by stealth… 

Zac Seidler: Go around, don't hit them on the head with the thing. 

Jean Kittson: No, 

Jamie Durie: …that's right. 

Jean Kittson: Start in a light way with a light, you know, an idea that's fun. And then dig a bit deeper.  

Jamie Durie: And it's the path of least resistance, isn't it? Because I grew up watching Magnum PI. And there's a Tom Selleck in all of us, where we desperately wanted to grow that mustache, but just didn't feel like there was enough reason to, and this gives us the excuse.

Jen Kittson: Yeah. 

Jamie Durie: To go, oh, I'm doing something good. And I'm also exploring this mustache, which could look terrible on me, but it also could look fantastic. And my Mrs might love it! 

Zac Seidler: I love the wives and the girlfriends who are just like, ‘make this stop!’ every year. But that is the joy of this thing.

And some people find that they can grow a beautiful mustache. We had a whole campaign called Shit Mo’s Save Lives. You've got this wispy thing. It doesn't matter.

Jean Kittson:  It doesn't matter! 

Jamie Durie: Growing a mustache doesn't happen overnight. No. And so there's this constant reminder of the cause. And bringing people back, bringing people's minds back every time you look in the mirror, oh, that's why I'm doing this because I'm raising money for this cause. 

Zac Seidler: And we also want to get around the idea that, you know, November is one month of the year.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: We're lucky to have the pun to stand behind. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: But this is an all-year situation. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: You know, there are guys, whether it's prostate cancer, testicular cancer, mental health and, and suicide prevention, lots of the things that we work in, they don't come and go, you know? They are a part of men's health.

They're a part of our families. Our wives deal with them, our children manage this stuff. And so we wanna make this an all year round conversation, and it just gets supercharged in November. 

Jean Kittson: So what would you say to men who perhaps think they can just stop everything or they've had to stop everything because of health or their age or their jobs finished because of their age and they think they can go out to play golf.

But then as you say, they may not have the friends around because they haven't stayed in touch with them, or that. So how do men find a new purpose? Because I think what you are doing, Jamie, is really a progression, a development of everything you've been doing in your past. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah.

Jean Kittson: But some men have just spent their whole lives doing one thing. And then suddenly that stops. So how do they find a new sort of purpose, or how can they build on the skills, the knowledge they have? 

Zac Seidler: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: What, what do you say to them?

Zac Seidler: I'm very keen for Jamie's thoughts, but the way that I see it, because I see a lot of men in their 50s, 60s… It's funny because lots of guys now are having their midlife crisis in their 30s, which is kind of good because they still have the time to pivot accordingly.

But what happens is that, when we get into the 60s, 70s, even, even 80s –– my grandpa's 96 and still kicking; he’s around. He goes into his office every day. I have no idea what he does, but he goes to work, right? 

So there's a part of that purpose that comes from that, but it's about an expansion really, which is that if you are myopic and you have this singular vision of who you are, and this is all that you can do, when that thing ends, whether you are fired, made redundant, you know, you retire, whatever might take place, you know we're in shifting times at the moment, and without that foresight and without the vulnerability to go, who am I? Taking pause going, who am I? What matters to me? What are my values and how can I go about, you know, picking and choosing lots of different things to spend my time doing, whether that's family, friends, hobbies… You know, it shouldn't just come when you click pause and you go, who am I now? What am I supposed to do? Because that is going to breed catastrophe. It's terrifying for all of us. 

You need to work your way up to it and realise, there is, each day, a chance to kind of do a little bit more in different fields of your life, water the ground in different areas, and realise that if you are, you know, you can be a one track, you can be a one corporation man your entire life. There's nothing wrong with that. But if it comes at the cost of you never prioritising your kids or your friends or your hobbies, that's just not really what we're here for. 

We're here to do many different things and to expand and grow. And I always find it very interesting. There's this trope that men don't talk, they don't want to go to therapy, they don't want to discuss what's happening in their lives. And I always, whenever a guy comes in and he is a bit, you know, doesn't have all the words, he grunts a bit. He's silent most of the time. I'm like, why are we here if not to understand ourselves?

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: And I think that lots of guys, when they get into those later years, they start to do that work, but it'd be lovely if they could do it a bit earlier. 

Jamie Durie: I didn't start my career in, you know, finding our future version of our house, you know, like what is the modern method of construction? I'd started in a very different space, where I was in Las Vegas dancing with an all male group called Manpower. You know? 

Jean Kittson: Dancing very well!

Zac Seidler: Well, various people said, you need to talk to Jamie about this. You brought it up, not me! 

Jamie Durie: No, no. And, but listen, they were the greatest years of my life and, you know, I started when I was 16. I was lucky enough to meet, along my travels, and we toured 14 different countries and played to, you know, sometimes 8,000 women a night at various 

 Zac Seidler: …and that one guy that was forced to be there!

Jamie Durie: …entertainment centers… Yeah, in Sun City, in South Africa and Hong Kong and all over the place. And, I got to see a lot of the world, many, many times. Circumnavigated the globe many times before I was even 21. And I think, travel's been, you know, my greatest teacher. They say it's the university of life. And so by the time I got to sort of 23, I was like, okay, what do I really wanna do with my life?

And weirdly, I met a garden designer, by the name of Paul Bengay and we got talking. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. 

Jamie Durie: And he took me to his garden design studio and he said, ‘this is what I do,’ and I said, you design gardens for a living. This is amazing. So not only could I help heal the planet by planting more trees.

But I can also do it in a creative way that would stimulate the creative side of myself. Right? So before I left Manpower, I enrolled into a horticultural course for four years, and there was that overlap effect where I was still doing shows. Still producing calendars. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. 

Jamie Durie: …and my teachers had copies of my calendar.

My horticultural teachers had copies of my calendar in their, in their staff room. And they were laughing at the fact that I was, you know, turning up to school every week, learning the names of plants – three and a half thousand of them – and, and throughout that period, you know, I didn't really graduate until I'd sort of reached, I think 30, but those last few years of my life where I was still doing shows at the Crown Casino in Melbourne and, and Las Vegas in the summer in in America… but I was going to school and studying. 

That's the pivot. That is… there's that overlap effect. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. Overlap, yeah. 

Jamie Durie: Find what you are passionate about. Start seeding that idea, pushing your way into what is it that I next wanna do and move. And I think my love for the environment started way back then.

And then morphed into what I'm doing today. And there's been that overlap into, okay, how are we gonna repair the planet as well? So, you know, I've overlapped the next section of my career out of horticulture and then into environmental work, you know, so I'm… 

Zac Seidler: It’s so, so values driven. And that's the thing, you know, you see young guys now who all want to be entrepreneurs and I end up seeing them because they're struggling to kind of reach this status that they believe they should reach in order to be successful. But it's get rich quick. And what you're describing is time, it's time, it's effort. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah

Zac Seidler: It requires an understanding of what matters to you. And trial and error and failure and all of that stuff.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: Which eventually. That all is the making of a man, you know? Yeah, yeah. Over time and you, you did two things at once, because you've gotta make a living. You've gotta try to work out what matters to you, where you're gonna go next, and you just keep following those open doors rather than going, this has to happen now.

Jamie Durie: Oh yeah. Yeah. I remember. I remember doing a Samsung campaign. I was naked. And I was, I was, I finished that campaign and then I'd, I'd literally the next, that afternoon was at Ryde horticultural college studying plants. But, you know, something had to pay the rent, right? 

Jean Kittson: Yeah that's right…

Jamie Durie: …you kind of... 

Jean Kittson: … it looks like a world, world apart, but you were able to do that.  

Jamie Durie: …Yeah.

Jean Kittson: …follow both. Do this thing you had to do… 

Jamie Durie: But Zac, you've pointed out something there, which I think is quite important. And I think it sits in all of us as genuine human beings and it's cause-related drive. And the advertising industry call is called this CRM: cause related marketing. But cause-related drive sits in all of us.

And when we suddenly tap into something that we feel like… is supporting community, supporting the planet, supporting your fellow human being. There's a different drive inside you that kicks in. You've got it. That's what's driven you with, with your group, over the years. I've got it there. There's, so if you can tap into what is your cause-related drive, you don't really have to find the energy. 

Zac Seidler: Mm-hmm. 

Jamie Durie: It finds you… 

Zac Seidler: That, that is exactly how I feel. Like, lots of people roll their eyes when they ask me, are you, you know, what's your job like, what's a dream job? And I'm like, I'm in it. I'm living it. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Zac Seidler: And no one wants to hear this positivity for some reason.

 Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: I'm like, everyone wants to complain all the time. And I'm like. No, I've, I'm having a good time. It's con–– it's nimble, it's constantly dynamic. It changes every day. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: The lives of men, the, the man that shows up in, in front of me, he changes every moment. Let alone all of the other guys around him in the same way that nature constantly adapts over time.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. You know, Zac, you're underselling yourself a little bit because Movember started here in Australia. 

Zac Seidler: Mm-hmm. In 2003. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. But now how many countries does it here? 

Zac Seidler:  Over 20. 

Jamie Durie: And you've raised how much? 

Zac Seidler:  Over a billion Australian. 

Jamie Durie: That is a huge impact, and those funds get distributed.

How… and are you part of the decision making process around that? 

Zac Seidler: Yeah. 

Jamie Durie: Tell me, tell me about that. 

Zac Seidler: So, I, so I lead our research team. So we've got, you know, 20 PhDs across the globe who are asking questions around what's going on for men, what's happening when they engage with health systems; you know, what's happening for new dads?

You know, how, how is the GP gonna ask questions about it? To a dad who might be experiencing postnatal depression…

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: …but isn't aware of it. We're looking at the manosphere in social media to make, you know, men's lives a bit easier so they don't get tricked into some of this stuff, which is…

Jamie Durie: Yeah.

Zac Seidler: …which is harming them.

So I get to do the research. Then we've got an entire program’s team where we're going to the community, grassroots, and creating programs in local footy clubs for coaches, parents, and young guys…

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: …to understand the signs, spot the signs, be able to talk with one another when they're struggling. Upskill community, fundamentally, around what to look for.

Because I'm sure back in your days, that idea of, like, guys getting around one another at the pub and talking about what is bothering them… 

Jean Kittson: Yeah, no… 

Zac Seidler: …what they're feeling, what matters to them, how they wanna show up in their families with their mates. It's a new conversation and we're trying to provide the language for lots of these guys to be able to have those chats. 

So, we build all of these different programs with community partners. You know, we are not doing this alone. We stand on the shoulders of giants, definitely. But it's just this, this humility, this Australian way kind of where we just find our way into, into grassroots organisations, in York, in the UK, we're in California, in the States, we're in Toronto.

We just work out what's working there and we try and ramp it up with them, with the funds that we've raised. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. So good. 

Jean Kittson: Mm-hmm. It is so good. Imagine that it's very regenerative too, because it sounds like there… that at any age you can sort of discover yourself. 

Zac Seidler: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: And find your passion and find the cause that drives you.

And this would, so when, when men would reach a certain age, some of them haven't had any relationships – you know, the sort of intimate relationship with their families that a mother might have and their kids. 

Zac Seidler: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: So then they're suddenly in a grandparent role. Then they've, then they've, they've gotta relearn how to connect emotionally, I suppose.

Zac Seidler: But you see that, you see, it's beautiful. And I think the, the grandparents, the grandfather's situation in this generation is really unique. Where you see a lot of kids get a bit angry because they're like, I never got this attention. But the way in which grandfathers are going, oh, I was a career man and I spent all day, every day, I missed out on bath time. I didn't get to go and, and watch, you know, him play soccer. I didn't get to do any of these things. And now they're trying to re-parent themselves in a way. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: And take back those opportunities that was, you know, taken from them because they weren't purposeful, they weren't able to go, what is actually possible here, and that's also what Movember is trying to do, is open those doors and say, being a man does not mean living within these constraints that you have been sold. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: Because they are harming you. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: They're fundamentally harming you. There's a reason that men die four years younger than women in Australia.

That's a big gap, and it largely comes down to preventable reasons. 

Jamie Durie: …Yeah..

Jean Kittson: …yeah…

Zac Seidler: …yeah. 

Jamie Durie: I'm father to three children. My first child, I had in my early 20s, and I'm a much better father now in my 50s than I was when I was 20, right. 

And I find very, very early on in my career, I was looking into a great speaker by the name of Anthony Robbins. We've all, we all know who Anthony, but he, there was one little nugget of wisdom that he shared with some of some of his followers, and that was the ‘wheel of life’. And within that wheel of life, you would have community, spirituality, friendship, family, career all that stuff helps the wheel go around.

And if one of those pieces of pie was not, kind of, out to its extremity, the wheel doesn't roll. And so I've mentally kind of always tried to keep that check in my life. But more so these days because, it's funny, the more time you put into your kids, the more worthwhile your life feels. It's incredible what they teach you.

Zac Seidler: Yeah. 

Jamie Durie: And I just feel like now I'm, I'm going to battle for my family every day rather than just myself. 

So it's a much less selfish way of life. But also we've got an enormous responsibility to raise these kids in the very best way that we possibly can and to keep bettering ourselves as parents and humans on a day-to-day basis so that that stuff spills over to them and they become great custodians of the planet and great, great movers and shakers and whatever, whatever it is they want to do.

Jean Kittson: Whatever, yes. 

Jamie Durie: You know, and you've gotta instill that stuff to them, I think. 

Zac Seidler: So many people ask me to define, like, healthy manhood or masculinity. Because we're talking, we, we so often talk about toxicity and what is broken and what is wrong, and men doing bad things, which takes place.

But we don't really have an aspiration. We don't have a message around what is possible. And I think that idea of being in constant sync around this notion of growth that comes in multiple ways within your life, there are all of these quadrants, there are all of these parts of yourself that it doesn't, it's not a day-to-day thing, necessarily.

You know, sometimes you're gonna be working really hard and you're not gonna be able to, to be there at dinner, but what do you do to recalibrate the next day? 

Jean Kittson: Yeah.

Zac Seidler: How do you find ways to make sure that that thing is in sync? 

Jamie Durie: Yeah, 

Zac Seidler: …because that's what drives distress in guys, and that's what they're not necessarily aware of that when some of those quadrants are falling away.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: … They are feeling less like themselves. 

Jamie Durie: Yes. 

Zac Seidler: And it drives them potentially to do some things that are, that are not in their best interest. Like if you're feeling like you're not being the best dad, lots of men start drinking more. Lots of men start pulling themselves away more because their kids start to, you know, rebel.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: When instead what is actually required is a leaning in, and that is that vulnerability that is required rather than this guilt pulling back and saying. This is not for me. 

Jean Kittson: …Defensiveness…

Zac Seidler: Exactly. And you see that in, in a lot of guys. You see it a lot, a lot of women as well, which is this: You're feeling challenged.

You're feeling like you're not living the life that you thought you were supposed to, and so you keep repelling further in the opposite direction rather than saying, maybe I'm a bit off kilter here and I should, I should recalibrate and work out what, what matters and have the conversations. 

And I want guys… lots of guys do this with their wives. It ends up being so much emotional burden on the women because the guys don't have deep male friendships where they can go and have these chats with other guys without feeling like a failure. Have you got guys in your life where you feel like you can, really… 

Jamie Durie: Oh, totally… 

Zac Seidler: …get into it? 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. My best mate and I, ironically, we danced together back in the Vegas days. So we've been mates since, you know, I was 20 and we talk probably three times a week. He's a dental technician. 

Zac Seidler: How far you've both come! 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. Yeah. He's there making the most extraordinary little pieces of technical equipment that, you know, dentures and things for people that gives them self-esteem and pride and function and health and stuff, which is quite amazing.

He's such a talented dexterous man, but he's constantly sitting in his laboratory, in his studio, you know, tinkering away. So he'll just call me in the middle of him making that stuff and I can hear that he's in the studio and I might be in a very different studio with TV, cameras rolling or whatever. But we always find ways to communicate and lean on each other when we need it most. And, and we have over the years, it's been great. Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: So you can be very vulnerable with him. 

Jamie Durie: Oh God, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, he's got skeletons in that, we will take to the vault!

Zac Seidler: Right. And that's what it's built, it's built on time. And energy and…

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: …realising that you need to invest in this stuff. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: And you see that, you know, you, you get 15-, 16-year-olds whose, whose friends are everything to them. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: And then they go into university. Slowly but surely they get into the workforce, they move into parenthood and it just starts to drop away.

And you often see the wife is the one who is leading the social calendar. 

Jean Kittson: Yes, always.

Zac Seidler: They're the ones who are looking after everything. They're making all of the calls. And you know, they start to believe, these men, that they actually are not capable of this stuff when, you know, they're a CEO… they're doing really complex things during the day and suddenly they can't call their friends to like arrange a beer on a Saturday night?

What is that? And so I think it is, it's a muscle that needs working out… 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: …over time. And it needs to be prioritised. Because consistently, you look at the Harvard Longitudinal Study, which is an incredible study, started in the 30s, still going. 

Jamie Durie: Mm-hmm. 

Zac Seidler: The guys who are still alive, they're in their 90s. They had quality friendships. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: It didn't matter if they smoked, how they exercised, what their jobs were, all that stuff…

 Jean Kittson: Really?

 Zac Seidler: …it washes away. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah.

Zac Seidler: We are human beings who require socialising. We require to be with one another, and that's why the loneliness crisis that happens for lots of older guys, older women as well, feeling so isolated, feeling like you don't have any purpose anymore.

You know, Men's Sheds, it's a group that we work really closely with. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah, they're great. 

Zac Seidler: Incredible. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: Yeah. And they have, they have women coming in now. You're tinkering, you're doing something. You've got mates there. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. It's great.

Zac Seidler:  It gives you something. We need more of that. I feel like those third spaces, those, those sheds, those community halls, they're just like evaporating.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler:  It's a real problem. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. Well, we used to see a lot more community gardens. I don't see them so much anymore. We often talk about work-life balance, but when you were talking about the wheel or…

Zac Seidler: mm-hmm. 

Jean Kittson: …and with all these different segments, I mean, because that's what life is.

It's more complicated. It's not just life over there and work there and you try and balance it out. You've gotta feed all these different elements of your life. 

Jamie Durie: Yes. 

Zac Seidler: Because work life balance makes it seem like life is 50% and work is 50%. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah, it does. 

Zac Seidler: When in fact it's actually work should be 20, and 20 and 20.

You've got all of these little things. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. Yes. It is about creating balance within your life and if you, you know, anyone can do a quick equation of the various facets in your life and go, Ooh, I need to put a little bit more family time in here. Or, when was the last time I called my mum or my dad?

Or, you know, when was the last time I took my kids to the park and, and played with them and, and gave them a good time? And, and so you, you gotta constantly keep a check of yourself, but also you gotta look after your own mental health so that you can be a better father for them, right? I surf every Sunday with a group of guys that age between oh, 50, 52 through to 74.

Zac Seidler: Wow. 

Jamie Durie: In fact. Probably one of the best surfers in our group. He's had a double hip replacement.  

 Jean Kittson: Oh I love that…

Jamie Durie:  …And he's a better… he's a better surfer than I am, he's awesome. 

Jean Kittson:  …That's so great. 

Jamie Durie: …Oh yeah, if you can hear me now, Tones, this is a big plug for you, bro. 

Jean Kittson:Yeah. 

Jamie Durie: But I went and bought a new longboard yesterday and I was–– I couldn't wait to get out there at 7.30am with the boys just to kind of share this new longboard with them.

And we had a great old time. We caught plenty of waves and then we go to breakfast together and that's what my partner Ameka calls ‘church’ for us, right. So she's like, go and have some boy time. See you at lunch. 

Zac Seidler: Because it's ritualised. 

Jamie Durie: It is, yeah. And I've been doing it, you know, 12, 15 years now and I really crave it.

Zac Seidler: Yeah, because you don't have to pick up the phone and go, are we doing it this week? It's on, it's on. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. Right. Oh yeah. And, and, and there's probably 30 of us altogether. Usually only 10 or 12 or even sometimes six turn up, you know? 

Jean Kittson:That's wonderful. 

Jamie Durie: But every so often they all, you know, one or two of them pop in and some of them are doctors, some of them come from the oil industry, some come from the textiles. Others are property valuers and all sorts of people. 

It's amazing. How many extraordinary high achieving blokes still require this – we all need church, I think. 

Jean Kittson: That ritual, that going, being able to gather when you want to without making an appointment…

Jamie Durie: That's right.

Jean Kittson: …And being together. 

 Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: I think one thing about your work, Jamie, I would say is that when we were talking before about men retiring and then going home, and then the wife taking over. Your work has always been around creating spaces around people's homes. Your own homes. Your garden and everything.

So that's your domain. But for many men, they would leave work and the home is not their domain. 

Jamie Durie: Mm. 

Jean Kittson: It's like they're an alien in that environment because that's been the woman's domain and she's taking care of it. But you are, you are lucky because that's so familiar to you. And you have so much input in it.

Jamie Durie: Mm. 

Jean Kittson: In fact, you're probably, it's probably your domain more than anything. 

Jamie Durie: I have a little too much input! And, so much so that, you know, we have to remind each other because Ameka loves interior design and so I've had to kinda let go a little bit and let her, you know, play with the interiors and all that, and she's done a great job. 

And, you know we have found a good niche in each other's careers because of that. I think you gotta, you know, make everyone feel like they're part of the end equation, you know? 

Jean Kittson: Yeah, 

Jamie Durie: yeah. 

Jean Kittson: Well, well, growing up, my dad was a DIY so he had a big –– he, you know, he basically built our house.

You know. Nothing ever worked, but, you know, we had seven doors opening onto the loungeroom, I think. But he was as much part of the domestic life…

Jamie Durie: yeah. 

Jean Kittson: …as, as my mother was. 

Zac Seidler: I just don't, I don't buy it that these rules and regulations that have been passed down by someone that we're not really aware of around what women should do and what men should do.

You know, Venus and Mars, it just doesn't benefit anybody. 

Jean Kittson: No… 

Zac Seidler: …and this is the thing. There are some people who are just gonna be better at certain things. And, you know, my wife is much better with a drill than I am. 

Jean Kittson: That's right! 

Zac Seidler: Give up. Yep. Like I've, I've worked it out…

Jamie Durie: Good on ya’ mate! 

I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna attempt it in the way that she does.

I'm lefthanded. I'm probably gonna cut off a finger. I'm gonna let her have her day. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. With a drill. He's gonna cut off a finger! Yeah. I like that. 

Jean Kittson: Okay. Hello. 

 Jamie Durie: He really doesn't use tools. 

Jean Kittson: Well picked up. 

Zac Seidler: You got it. You got it. Live and learn!

Jamie Durie: I gotta ask, Zac, you know, we, mental health of course is a huge part of our, elongating our lives, right. And I have to ask, what role does stress have in that? And also what role does the foods that we eat play into the health of our minds and our bodies? 

Zac Seidler: Well, I think that we went through a period, you know, early on in the 20th century where we started to split the mind and the body, and that was not a smart move.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

 Zac Seidler: And we are very much ricocheting back away from that and realising that everything needs to be calibrated, and they all affect one another in a cause-and-effect kind of way. That's why everyone, any psychologist worth their salt will bang on first and foremost about sleep and diet…

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

 Zac Seidler: …and exercise. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: …really. And it's funny because they're like, oh no, I just wanna talk about my feelings. And I'm like, no, if you don't get this stuff in order, there is no point in getting into the deeper stuff because this is going to create the foundations of wellbeing for you. 

 Jamie Durie: That's right.

 Zac Seidler: Fundamentally, the fuel that you are putting in – and fuel comes through sleep, through exercise, through diet, and nutrition. And I think that we are at a point because of cost of living stuff, especially… 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: …where everyone is, is trying to make their way and, and survive as best they can. And because of time and work and families, food just kind of drops off.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler:  And so it becomes easier to do, you know, quickfire meals that are probably much worse for you. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

 Zac Seidler: Whether it's sodium or sugar or whatever it is. And that has a fundamental effect on your sleep. It has a fundamental effect on your mood. And really the more stressed you are, the more calorie rich food you kind of end up wanting.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

 Zac Seidler: Whenever you've had a tough day, you're gonna go for the chocolate because you’re like trying to manage… 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. Yeah. 

 Zac Seidler: …and so trying to get ahead of that stuff. By building in… You know, I'm a very ritualised person because if I… you know, Obama and Steve Jobs, all these people, they always talk about trying to get rid of the grey in your day, which is like, Steve Jobs wore the same thing every day because he wanted to think about something else… 

Jean Kittson: right?

Zac Seidler: …I've eaten the same breakfast and lunch pretty much every day for 20 years because I have other things to deal with and it's the best way that I'm gonna go to the shops and I'm gonna ensure that I have a nutritious meal. Because I'm doing the same thing and everyone goes, don't you get bored?

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

 Zac Seidler: And I go, well, I'm still alive, so no, I'm alright. 

Jamie Durie: Steve, I heard a Steve Jobs statement the other day and you don't often hear him, speak in this way, but he said, make food your medicine or medicine will be your food. 

Jean Kittson: Oh…

Jamie Durie: …isn't that an awesome statement? 

Jean Kittson: …Clever. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. And I've not heard that before.

And then I started looking into some of his interviews in more detail. Do you know that none of his kids had devices? 

Zac Seidler: None. None. No one who owns a tech company, their kids never touch devices. Full stop. 

Jamie Durie: That's, that says it right there, right? 

Zac Seidler: Yeah. 

Jamie Durie: I mean, I wrote a book years ago, and it was called Outdoor Kids and it was about getting kids off TV games and devices and back out into the garden again, where I grew up.

Zac Seidler: Mm-hmm. 

Jamie Durie: And I find that when I'm, I'm suffering stress or anxiety. I put my hands into the earth and I start weeding or planting or whatever, and suddenly within an hour or two, I'm back. I'm, I feel earthed, I feel… . 

Jean Kittson: …Grounded?  

Jamie Durie: I feel grounded and I've let go of all that stress into the earth. And there's a theory now about forest bathing.

Zac Seidler: Mm-hmm. 

Jamie Durie: Which I'm sure you've heard about where, you know, you can go on a trip to Japan and walk through the forest for a minimum of four hours per day for two weeks, and it improves your immune system and helps fight tumors and infections and things and adds so much to your mental health that, and I think we're now just discovering the benefits that nature has, that plays within our health. 

Zac Seidler: Well, we're trying to create science around something that is obvious. Which is, which is the thing, we've created all of this infrastructure that is actually ruining our lives, and now we're trying to peel it back and go back to basics, which is, you know, the, back in my day, we used to play on the street and would hang around with different generations of kids and do all that stuff.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: And now you know, the fog is really what you're… it descends from the phones. That's the iPads and the television. It's this notion of… 

Jamie Durie: yeah. 

Zac Seidler: …detachment from who you are and who you want to be. And we see this with young kids, the longer they spend on social media, the more they are unable to actually access their own wants and needs.

Because… 

Jamie Durie: …they're the less functional they are when they get out into the real workplace as well. 

Zac Seidler: Fundamentally. It takes, so it takes so much time to relearn these things. 

Jamie Durie: There was a professor that wrote a book called ‘The last child in the woods’.

You know, I developed this theory called the outdoor room, where you would convert your kitchen into an outdoor space, your living room, into an outdoor space, your bathroom, your bedroom, so that everything was connected to nature and you would spend more time out outdoors, being reconnected with nature through your everyday functions.

Jean Kittson: Beautiful.

Jamie Durie: And I used to talk about this, like, let's take the roof off our house, and then instill plants into our everyday lives. Think of your backyard like that. And that was what I used to model the outdoor room theory on. Now I want to take this to another level where we talk about, you know, health and wellbeing and fitness and how do we take exercise into the outdoors?

How do we, how do we then start to, you know, control the food that goes into our children's mouths and our family's mouths, reduce pesticides and herbicides, get rid of glyphosates. What role does that play into keeping our bodies healthy enough, to be able to withstand stressful times and so forth, you know?

 Zac Seidler: Mm-hmm. 

Jamie Durie: … there been any studies within your funding groups…? 

Zac Seidler: …yeah… 

Jamie Durie: …in the past where, you've seen a direct correlation between stress and the increase of disease and poor health? 

Zac Seidler: Oh, yeah. It's the strongest causation you can possibly find, right. It drives cancer, it drives heart disease, it drives stroke.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: You know, fundamentally the more stressful your life is, the more cortisol you've got running through your veins. The lower your life expectancy is. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. And, and I used to live off stress, like… 

 Jean Kittson: …the adrenaline. Yeah. 

Jamie Durie: ... that adrenaline rush… I loved it. I loved, you know, and the, and oh, we may not get this garden done on time or, you know, or I may not get this project finished in time.

Like, and so, the older I get, the more I realised, wow, this is not the goal. The goal is to minimise stress down to zero. And that's the only way we're gonna maintain strong health. 

Zac Seidler: And how we respond to stress….

Jamie Durie: Yes. 

Zac Seidler: …Like the more stress you have, the worse you are at responding to it. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: And that's why you see lots of guys who are just like exploding because they just don't how to regulate that stuff because they don't have the energy. They don't have the coping mechanisms, they don't have the people to call on. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: But the more you realise what it is… There's so many guys I talk to and I, I go, do you get stressed about things? And they're like, no, I, I've never felt anxiety before. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: And they're sitting there and their leg is shaking.

Jean Kittson: Yeah, yeah. 

Zac Seidler: I'm like, they're…

Jean Kittson: …can’t articulate it… 

Zac Seidler: They’re so detached from their own reality. 

 Jean Kittson: …can’t articulate it… Oh, they're, detached… 

Zac Seidler: …exactly…Yeah. And so being able to get to the point where we realise and we're not afraid of stress because there is a certain amount of it that actually leads to better performance. You know, this effect of going into an exam, if you don't have a bit of butterflies… you know they're useful sometimes.

Jean Kittson: Of course it focuses you… 

Zac Seidler: before a performance, it's good. 

But then it's called the ‘yerkes-dodson curve’, which is, it goes up, and your performance goes up, you’ve got a bit of nerves, it's pretty good for you. You hit this precipice, and the second you go past that. You suddenly can't see. You're in an exam. You can't think straight. You're in front of camera and you lose your words. 

Jamie Durie: Mm-hmm. 

Zac Seidler: That's when stress is tipped over and that's when… A little bit is good at getting you out of bed, getting you going. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: Because you're excited. You know, excitement and anxiety can go hand in hand. But there's just a little bit that is good, and then too much that really has long-term effects on you.

Jamie Durie: Mm-hmm. 

Zac Seidler: Yeah. 

Jamie Durie: Mm-hmm. 

Jean Kittson: What do you say to men who, maybe you have lived on adrenaline and have had all this pressure and all this stress, and then suddenly it stops, and then that withdrawal from the adrenaline. How do you manage that suddenly, do people find another stress to fill it, fill up that adrenaline?

What do they do when they're suddenly taken away? Is it like a void or a vacuum? Or…? 

Zac Seidler: It can be, it can be very difficult. You know, no doubt, Jamie, when you moved past that and you had a moment of pause and were like looking back at those years and realising how overwhelmed you probably were, and constantly going and churning your… everything kind of just becomes this, this muscle that is moving towards survival. 

And when you realise that you're actually not enjoying anything, that you're not in the moment at all, lots of those guys – and that often happens much later on in life because they keep going until they run out of steam. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: And then there's this vacuum, there's this, this hole underneath them, and they don't have the skills to be able to pick up new things and fill that.

Jamie Durie: Yep. 

Zac Seidler: You know, in some ways… So we want to get to the point where guys are realising, are connecting with that feeling within themselves that maybe the past 2, 3, 4 weeks have been really full on… 

Jamie Durie: Mm-hmm. 

Zac Seidler: …And having the language to be able to say to someone, I need to pause here. I need to realise, I need to recalibrate. I need to work out what's happening. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I wish someone had told me at 21 that stress was so destructive. Because I think that's something, you know, I've learned over, over time and I've watched some of my friends go into poor health, through, you know, their lack of dealing with stress.

Zac Seidler: Yeah…. 

Jamie Durie: But 

Zac Seidler: We need the skills. We need the skills. At school, you should be teaching stress reduction, you know? 

Jamie Durie: Yeah, 

Jean Kittson: exactly. I have a friend who does mindfulness, part of her lessons, so she senses – she's a drama teacher of course – and you know my age, so we have the experience and we can look back and go, this stress we put on our children is just way too much.

So she senses a class is really stressed. She won't do a normal lesson, she'll just relax them. 

 Zac Seidler: Nice. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: Which is a really, you know, but that she's rare, but this is what we should be doing and… 

Jamie Durie: …yeah… 

Jean Kittson: …And I think we've got, we are at our age, we've got this… Not our age, I'm older than you, Jamie! But you know, as you get older, we've got the skills.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: We've got the experience to be able to say how, what's important in life. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: And you talking about in… in my day, we'd hug trees and it was sort of like a bit of a joke, but it was. A really beautiful thing to do. 

Jamie Durie: Yes. 

Jean Kittson: I do it outside the studio before I come in. There's some really old paper barks, you know, there, they, they must be a hundred years old. Did you notice them coming in?

Jamie Durie:  I know they're, they're all through this area. Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: They're incredible. And they're growing out of asphalt and I always give them a bit of a hug, and go, Good on you… 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: …I don't know how you've survived! And it just, that moment of connection with nature and you just have to value that and recognise it and thank nature for what it does, because as you say, all this technology, if you are going straight from an office back home to the telly or something… 

Jamie Durie: …It's incredible how well they survive, by the way, these paperbacks in these streets.

Jean Kittson: …Aren’t they amazing. 

Jamie Durie: You're right, the pathways go right up to them, and you would think that the soils would become anaerobic, but Melaleuca quinquenervia – our paper bark tree is – is probably one of the most stoic trees in our system and our indigenous use the bark to wrap their fish and their food up and they would cook their food wrapped in the paper bark. Right? 

And it's got so many brilliant uses, but they've also got nitrogen fixing nodules and a whole range of survival techniques that other non-native trees don't have. So, you know, one of my pet hates is why did we, why are we planting London Plane trees, platanus hybrida, are all through our streets, which, which are, you know…

 Zac Seidler: …Causes us asthma…

Jamie Durie: So, yeah. Causes asthma, gives us all hay fever – I get hay fever from them – when we could be planting these native trees that require zero care and they still thrive their heads off, you know. 

Zac Seidler: Finally, the paperback chat we all needed. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. That's what we needed. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Jean Kittson: If only we, you know, treated ourselves like a paper bark, if we had nitrogen nodules, you know?

Jamie Durie: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Jean Kittson: I mean, if we understood ourselves, when you talk about trees and plants like this and your knowledge of them and how they, how they exist and how they, you know, how they grow. We need that knowledge about ourselves. From a very early age. 

Jamie Durie: That's right. 

Jean Kittson: So we can recognise what we need to do…

Jamie Durie: Yeah.

Zac Seidler: So that we can enjoy. And this is the thing, it's, you are not going to gain that knowledge from a standing start in your 60s. 

Jamie Durie: No, that's right. 

Zac Seidler: You need to, it needs to be a lifelong lesson of what matters to me. How am I moving through the world? How do I grow? How am I going to understand how I tick?

And those things cannot come when you retire. 

Jamie Durie: That's right. That's right. 

Zac Seidler: They need, they need to come much earlier on and they need to be instilled so that we're not just churning our way, you know, to the end. 

Jamie Durie: You're right, it's that evolution.

It's those, it's the teaching, it's the experience. It's falling down, picking yourself up again. It's making all those mistakes and then coming full circle into where we are today and, and then passing down some of those learnings, to as many people as you can. That's what it's all about. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah, definitely. That's our responsibility, isn't it, as we get older, is to share what we've learned. 

Jamie Durie: Yep. 

Jean Kittson: And hope that our children or grandchildren don't make the same mistakes. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: So, Jamie, what would you say to someone who was maybe hitting their 50s and feeling like they're winding down or they're stuck or something, or, I mean, you just took that huge leap in your 20s to do horticulture…

Jamie Durie: Yes. 

Jean Kittson: … While you were doing something completely different, the dancing.  

Jamie Durie: Yeah. Yeah.

Jean Kittson: So what, what would you say to, have you got any friends who you feel are stuck or… 

Jamie Durie: I, yeah, I have and I say the same thing to all of them. Find something that you are passionate about. Dive into it. Learn, feed your brain.

You know, make yourself get engaged in it because it will provide you with the fuel that you need to push you well into your retirement and way past that. And I don't like to use the word retirement because I'm never gonna retire. I've decided I'm just gonna keep working because I love my work.

But find what it is you're passionate about and learn more and feed your brain. And it's funny, if it's benefiting other people, you will also find another way to keep energy within yourself. 

So don't just feed yourself. Find something that feeds other people in other communities and there's a sense of worthiness around what it is that you are doing that makes you feel good about your day and what you've learned and how you've passed it on.

Jean Kittson: Just to wrap up, what would your tip be to people over 50 who feel perhaps a bit, a bit stuck? What's one habit, do you think, they could in… because we're talking about you have to do it regularly and, and institute it as a part of your everyday routines.

What, is there one habit? 

Zac Seidler: It is funny that I very much, hopefully, look like I’m not in my 50s, but I spend a lot of time with men in their 50s and and 60s and do clinical work with them and research with them because they are hungry, and they're looking for ways to improve the rest of their lives and seek understanding about themselves.

And I kind of say the same thing, which I've been talking to Jamie about, which is pick up the phone and call someone. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. Yeah. There you go. 

Zac Seidler: Reach out. Lean out. And it doesn't need to be a mental health conversation. It doesn't need to be something that's weird and awkward. It's just like, let's go for coffee, let's go for a walk.

Jamie Durie: Yeah.

Zac Seidler:  Let's do this thing called life together. And when you're finding that passion, that comes through other people… I went to a dinner party when I was 18 and someone started to talk to me about masculinity. And I was like, what? What are we talking about here? And then they connected me with someone else and slowly but surely doors opened.

And your life opens, and there is no end point to learning. There is no end point to interest, to passion to drive. So, yeah, I think that realising, firstly, that you are stuck does not mean failure. Understanding that you're at an inflection point and there is now heaps of opportunity and potential for doing something different. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: And that is a beautiful thing that we have, which is that there is always this splay of choices in front of us. And so start choosing. 

Jean Kittson: Just be curious. Start choosing. 

Jamie Durie: Yep. 

Jean Kittson: Can't go wrong. You can't make a mistake. Thank you both so much. That was such a great conversation.

Thank you, Jamie Durie. 

Jamie Durie: My pleasure. Yeah, my pleasure.

Jean Kittson: Thank you, Dr Zac Seidler. Thank you very much. 

Zac Seidler: Thanks for having me.

Jean Kittson: That was really great. Thanks for being so open. 

Jamie Durie: Great fun. 

Jean Kittson: Thank you to Jamie Durie and Dr Zac Seidler. 

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I'm Jean Kittson. Thanks for listening, and remember, it's your time, so dare to make it count. Go for it.