Broadcaster and comedian Wendy Harmer and positive psychologist Dr Tim Sharp (aka ‘Dr Happy’) lift the veil on relationships and explore what it takes to nurture our most important connections with our partners, friends, and with ourselves.

About the episode – brought to you by Australian Seniors, in partnership with RSPCA.

Join Jean Kittson for the seventh season of DARE: The time of your life (formerly Life’s Booming), called Better With Age. 

Too often ageing is painted as decline. In reality, Australians are living longer, healthier lives and reshaping what “older” looks like. This series flips the script and shows how ageing is not a dirty word but rather a time to be embraced, featuring interviews with extraordinary over 50s refusing to slip quietly into the background.

Wendy Harmer is a trailblazing comedian, broadcaster and journalist who has spent decades at the centre of Australian media and entertainment. Wendy first made her mark breaking new ground in Australia’s stand-up comedy scene before going on to become one of the country’s most recognisable media personalities and the author of bestselling books including Farewell My Ovaries.

Australia’s own Dr Happy, Dr Tim Sharp is a leading positive psychologist, bestselling author and founder of The Happiness Institute, Australia’s first organisation dedicated to enhancing happiness. With a career spanning academia, clinical psychology and public speaking, he’s become one of the most recognised voices on mental health and wellbeing.

Watch DARE: The Time of Your Life on YouTube

Listen to DARE: The Time of Your Life on Apple Podcasts 

Listen to DARE: The Time of Your Life on Spotify 

For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast 

Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency

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TRANSCRIPT:

Jean Kittson: Welcome back to the podcast – DARE: The Time of Your Life, formerly Life’s Booming, brought to you by Australian Seniors, in partnership with RSPCA. 

I'm Jean Kittson, and this season is called Better with Age where we're flipping the script and showing how ageing is not a dirty word, but rather a time to be embraced.

Australians are living longer, healthier lives, and this season celebrates over 50s who are pushing the boundaries of what ageing looks like and feels like. In this episode, we are lifting the veil on relationships and exploring what it takes to nurture our most important connections with our partners, friends, and with ourselves.

We've probably all experienced how relationships shift over time. It's natural, of course, but it might surprise you to know just how important they are to our overall happiness and why it's vital to keep nurturing all relationships old and new. 

Which brings me to our first guest, Wendy Harmer, who knows about the importance of friendships and relationships and making new ones as we age.

I first met Wendy when we worked together back in the 80s, so we've been friends a long time. She's one of Australia's most beloved entertainers, a trailblazing, standup comedian, journalist, broadcaster, performer and bestselling author. Her books include the wonderful Pearly children's book series, as well as more adult titles like Farewell My Ovaries and her memoir Lies My Mirror Told Me. 

And joining Wendy is Dr Tim Sharp, otherwise known as Dr Happy. 

Tim is one of Australia's leading positive psychologists, and the founder and Chief Happiness officer at the Happiness Institute. Also a bestselling author, including The Happiness Handbook and his most recent Lost and Found.

Tim has dedicated his career to helping people live happier and more flourishing lives. Tim and Wendy, welcome to the podcast. Thank you both for coming in. 

Wendy Harmer: Great to be here, Jean. 

Jean Kittson: Oh, it's lovely to have you both here. 

Wendy Harmer: I've got to say, Tim, the first time I set eyes on this one, what a bombshell. She would've been on stage in a nurse's uniform at The Last Laugh Theatre Restaurant. It was, at the time, playing Nurse… 

Jean Kittson: Pam Sandwich…

Wendy Harmer:  …Pam Sandwich 

Jean Kittson: …in Let the Blood Run Free. 

Wendy Harmer: And this. All arms and legs and big boobs and blonde hair and falling over and doing all this amazing physical comedy. Everyone just adored Jean – and the men, we had to fight them off with a stick.

Jean Kittson: Yeah. Well those were the days, weren't they? This is what friendship's all about Tim, right? Thanks Wendy. That was lovely of you to say that. I mean, we've known each other for, well, since the early 80s. 

Wendy Harmer: It would have been about ‘83. 

Jean Kittson: And you were on stage doing stand up. See, I was doing [characters] and you were amazing, what you were talking about, women’s things – topics for women, about women and relationships. 

Wendy Harmer: That's right. Well, because when I first started out doing standup, it was really a bloke's domain and I thought, well, this, you know, this is ridiculous because, you know, women's lives are interesting too, and I mean, there's one thing that annoys me above anything else is saying women aren't funny. Like the idea, Tim, that you would say, ‘oh, the pet budgie can make me laugh. The dog can make me laugh, but a woman can't make me laugh.’ I mean, it really, I think it strikes to our humanity and I get really cross about that. So I've sort of been a bit of a campaigner with that, you know, rubber chook on a stick for many years.

But you know, the idea, I know you have this happiness. You talk a lot about happiness. How important is laughter? 

Dr Happy: Very important. Well, it's a general group, laughter, fun play, all of those things, which we too often underestimate and discount. Well, we sort of see them as a nice to have, but the research is pretty clear.

It's super important for a good life. It's hard to live a best life, a thriving life, a flourishing life without laughter, without fun, without play. I mean, there are many other things as well, and I'm sure we'll get to some of those other things, but a hundred percent it is a very important contributor to living a really, really good quality life.

Wendy Harmer: And it's interesting too, that our sense of humor. It's not universal at all. It's formed in that crucible of the family, or indeed your chosen family like Jean. You know, we chose each other as grownups to be a family. But that, you know, there is like the punny family, there's the practical joke family. There's, you know, each family has its own particular sense of humor, doesn't it? 

Jean Kittson: Well, I think friendship is a really important way of maintaining humour in your life because you get together with friends to have a laugh, don't you, often? 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: I mean, they're complex relationships, friendships. I mean, you've had friendships for a long time, Wendy, long-term friends. 

Wendy Harmer: I still have a friend who was at my 70th birthday a couple of months ago, whom I met on the school bus when I was 13 years old. So I – Gary. So I think that's pretty cool. He's the friend that I've had the longest, but you know, Jean and I have very similar trajectories in this way.

We both were sort of country girls, and then we went to Melbourne and then we moved to Sydney. And that is a big dislocator, isn't it, of friendships. It's when you, you know, and we both moved to Sydney about the same time, so we left this huge coterie of friends to move to Sydney with our husbands, and then we both had kids, which is isolating as well…

Jean Kittson: …definitely, it changes everything, doesn't it… 

Wendy Harmer: … you know, the nature of a friendship just changes so much over the years. 

Jean Kittson: But in terms of friendship and happiness, I mean, is friendship a really important element? You are talking about laughing, which it is, but I know when I get together with friends, we laugh a lot. But friendship is a really important part of, you know, happiness. 

Dr Happy: Yeah. Well, look, I've been, well, I probably should say I started out my career specialising in unhappiness. I was a clinical psychologist to begin with and an academic. So I was studying sort of stress, depression, and misery before I even discovered happiness.

But I have been studying, well, what we technically call positive psychology for several decades now. And if I had to sum up everything I've learned from thousands of research articles, hundreds of books, many, many conferences about, you know, what are the most important contributors to, well not just happiness, but wellbeing more generally, longevity, physical health, et cetera, it would certainly be positive relationships. 

In fact, one of the – so Christopher Peterson was one of the leaders, one of the grandfathers of positive psychology, and he dedicated his life to studying, thriving and flourishing. And he was once asked, what have you learned in, you know, 50 years as a professor? And he said, I can sum it up in three words. He said, other people matter. 

Wendy Harmer: Wow. That is correct. 

Dr Happy: So yeah, it's vitally important, almost certainly the most important contributor and the most important thing we can do is prioritise fostering and developing good quality relationships. 

Wendy Harmer: Well, you do hear that, don't you? That people ask on their deathbed, you know, what's your regret? And it's often that I didn't spend enough time with friends or family. 

You have some amazing relationships, Jean, and it's funny when you have a friend and you get to know that – and Angela, she's not a friend of mine, but I know her to be your best friend and that your friendship has been amazing over the years. How long have you known Angela? 

Jean Kittson: Well, I've known Angela for, since we were both teachers sent to the wilderness to teach first year out teachers. So probably since we were about 21, so 50 years. But she's a long distance friend, so I would speak to this friend regularly on the phone, and we speak all the time whenever we like on the phone, but I would only see Ange maybe once or twice a year, which is another thing about friendship.

I know that our friendship endures because we speak regularly and we are in touch with each other's lives. Then I have friends who live a few streets away who I don't see for months, but I don't ring because they're only a few streets away and I lose contact – I mean, we often lose contact with friends.

So, how do you manage that sort of – have you lost contact with any friends? You've got a huge cohort of friends. 

Wendy Harmer: Oh, well, I've lost, you know, I've lost contact with lots and lots of friends. I've only once lost contact with someone on purpose. I've done the– and that was after I spent time with this friend, and I realised that every time I walked away from spending time with this friend, I felt worse about myself.

There was something just subtle in the relationship that just made me feel that I wasn't smart enough or I was like overweight or I wasn't achieving or whatever. 

Richard Stubbs, you know, our comedian friend, he would say, Wendy, he said, ‘sometimes you go back to that well, where it's quite clearly the person doesn't wanna be friends with you, and you are like, you won't take no for an answer.’

So I'm probably the opposite. I'm probably that needy person who wants, who needs you to be my friend, maybe. 

Jean Kittson: Well, I think we all need friends and we don't like it when we lose contact. And then you get embarrassed because it's been so long since you called. This is my situation that I'm too scared to ring up in case they just won't pick up and then I know I'm dropped. 

How do you mend broken friendships if– because they can be very painful, that sort of grief of losing someone just because of neglect, really not deliberately ghosting them or anything. Because friendships need to be nurtured, need to be fed in a way, need to be maintained. 

Wendy Harmer: [Like this plant..] Oh, that's plastic. That's plastic! I was going to say like this house plant!

Jean Kittson: Yeah. 

Dr Happy: Look, it's, well, there's a couple of things there. You're a hundred percent right. We– relationships do need to be worked on.

Now for some people that's easier than others. There's no doubt that some people who, at the risk of oversimplifying, may be the more extroverted people who find it more enjoyable, easier. It just comes naturally to them. Some of us, some other people, need to work a bit harder at it, but it is something you need to work at.

And the other thing that came out through both of that, is that things change over time, which shouldn't be a surprise. You know, as we age and as our circumstances change and as our contexts change, you know, and you get married and you have children and then you retire, and all those sorts of things.

So, our relationships will change, but we do still need to work on it. We do still, it is important to have some friends, for some people that will be fewer than others. You know, so some people, some of us are happy with one or two good friends, that's enough. Other people might need five 10 or whatever. But…

Wendy Harmer: I can never have enough! 

Dr Happy: …and that's okay. Again, we're all different. 

Wendy Harmer: Well, yeah. My husband is, he has the most friendships of any person I've ever met in my entire life, to the point where every now and then, it's like barnacles on a barge. I have to go down and scrape them off… 

Dr Happy: Are you calling your husband a barge?

Wendy Harmer:  …every now and then. Yeah. But then he had his 50th birthday at our house. Mind you, 350 people came. 

Jean Kittson: Amazing. 

Dr Happy: Wow. 

Wendy Harmer: Lord. But it's almost…

Jean Kittson: I’m jealous. 

Wendy Harmer: …Yeah. But it's almost like his mission, you know, mission in life. But you know, I'll tell you something though. Oh, have you ever had this Jean, have you ever been jealous of someone else's friendship?

Because I remember years ago, I was a big Oprah aficionado. I loved everything that Oprah did. And then she talked all the time about her best friend, Gail King. 

Jean Kittson: Mm-hmm. 

Wendy Harmer: And they went on a road trip together and how they talked to each other three or four times a day and dah, dah, dah, dah. And I thought, oh, I wish I had a friendship like Gail and Oprah. So I had to stop reading about their friendship because it just seemed too ideal. But, I'm not sure that they weren't just lying. 

Jean Kittson: They–– didn't you say that they rang each other three or four times a day?  

Wendy Harmer: Yeah. Three, three or four times a day. 

Jean Kittson: I know that seems excessive. 

Wendy Harmer: It does seem excessive. 

Jean Kittson: I think it seems like there's some insecurity there even. 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah. Maybe.

Jean Kittson: Maybe, although, you know, we all need friends for different reasons, and we all need them at different times for different reasons. Often friends are the ones that get you through the hardest times in your life and you don't want to burden your family and your partner all the time with your insecurities.

Wendy Harmer: See, I wanna say something really important there, which I hate, which is, you know, where people, you know, they make their marriage vows and they say, ‘you are my best friend.’ And I think. I don't want my husband to be my best friend. 

My husband is my lover, but he's not my best friend. I mean, what do you think of that, Jean? 

Jean Kittson: Well, in some ways, I suppose, you need to have a friendship with your relationship. 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah. Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: It needs to be companionable. You need to trust them to be able to be honest with each other, and that's what friendships are like, and to have sex. You know, if you…

Wendy Harmer: Be honest with each other? Are you serious? 

Jean Kittson: I'm serious. You gotta be honest about your– well, about how you're feeling, I mean, you don't, I mean– of course. I think honesty is really important, although, no, I don't wanna say anything too personal here, but there is a difference, yes.

There is a difference between your friendship with your girlfriends, where you can just download and, I mean, do you have a really close male friend, this is the other thing?

Wendy Harmer: Oh, yeah, yeah. I've got, actually, probably, I've got more male friends and female friends even. And I love my male friends.

When my husband and I got married, I had an ex-boyfriend in my bridal party and he had his– one of his girl, not his girlfriend, but a female friend in his party. So we are very relaxed, you know, about all that. But as I say, you know, yes, I believe in trust, absolutely, in a relationship with your partner. Honesty? Hmm. I'll get back to you. 

Jean Kittson: Well, I think with really good friends, you can be honest. I often hear people say, oh, these– well, you were talking about a friend who made you feel bad. I'm not talking about that. But I think some friends, you often hear people say, ‘oh, friends should build you up’ or ‘you should always have a positive relationship with them.’

But sometimes friendships go through periods where you are there to support them through really hard times. So, it's not always gonna be someone who makes you feel better about yourself. It's maybe you making them feel better about themselves. 

Wendy Harmer: But sometimes also as a friend, you've got to say, listen, I think that you might be, you know, on the wrong path here. Or, you know, you've gotta put… 

Dr Happy: Honesty. 

Wendy Harmer: …Yeah. You've gotta be diplomatic, haven't you? But some– do you think that a friend, good friend should be able to say, yeah, well, maybe, I don't know whether this is quite the–– how should we go about that? 

Dr Happy: Oh, for sure. I think, well, if I take my sort of professional hat on and just so to speak personally, because this is something I've learned over the years and, and I haven't really seen much research on it.There's not much talk in the sort of academic community about it. 

But, I've come to learn, there are different types of friends and so, I have some friends who I can talk honestly about and share my feelings with, even though I'm a bloke and then there are other friends who are fun, but I would never go to them necessarily if I have a problem.

And I don't think that necessarily makes them not a good friend. I think it took me a long time to learn there are just different friends who have, kind of almost different purposes for want of a better phrase, including my wife and family as well in that. And so there are some things I will call some people for and other things I'll call other people for and I don’t know if we necessarily give that as much consideration. 

Wendy Harmer: Is your…

Jean Kittson:  I think that's really true. 

Wendy Harmer: …Can I ask, do you think your wife is your best friend? 

Dr Happy: She is actually at the risk of disagreeing with you! But I don’t know if that's necessarily that common. I have, well, I suppose it depends how you define best, but we are very close friends. We've spent over 30 years now. 

Jean Kittson: I think you're right about friends for, you know, you don't have friends for all seasons. You have different friends for different seasons in a way. And I– there's friends I would call if I needed a bit of therapy, you know, uplifting, give me a confidence boost. And then there's friends that I would call to just take me out of my world into a whole different world. 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah… 

Jean Kittson: …And that's, that's a benefit of having many friends or a few friends. But of course, what you mentioned before, some people are introverts and find friendships more difficult to maybe maintain or they're more exhausting and other extroverts might have a whole lot of friends – like you and Brendan are both extroverts, I would say, Wendy. 

Dr Happy: Well, so at the risk of disagreeing, that's a bit of a misunderstanding, with introverts and extroverts, so it's not– introverts don't necessarily find friendships difficult.

It's just that they don't get their energy from mixing with lots of people a lot of the time. So, they need to have time. They still could have good quality relationships, maybe not as many, but it's just that they'll need to take time out probably a bit more often and spend a bit more time on their own. So it is a bit of a– introverts aren't necessarily loners, or even lonely, for that matter. 

Jean Kittson: No, that's right. I'm glad you clarified that. I think I'm probably– was talking about sort of at parties and big [events] whereas extroverts get their energy, they find the whole thing… 

Dr Happy: Yeah. When you were describing your husband's party with 350 people, this is my worst nightmare. I was thinking, my God, I'd be out of there in five minutes. 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah. Tim, can I ask you, how do we kind of know, how do we know when we are deficient in friendship. Is there any universal standard or is it just every single person will feel that very differently? 

Dr Happy: That's a really good question. And there's probably multiple answers.

Wendy Harmer: Thanks. It's a better question than Jean’s! 

Jean Kittson: Yeah, wow, I was– you just interview us, Wendy. I would be so happy. 

Dr Happy: As I say, no, great question. I think everyone is different. So again, we all need, you know, some of us are quite happy with a very small group of intimate friends, other people want the 350, whatever it might be.

I guess the real question is to ask yourself honestly, like, how do I feel about my life? Do I feel I have enough, do I feel it's adequate in that context and in other contexts as well? Because there's a difference between being alone and being lonely – [we] kind of almost touched on that before.

And again, there some people are perfectly happy, either totally on their own or maybe just one or two people in their lives. Other people need more than that, and it's not– one's not right or wrong or better or worse, it's just, again, we're different. So the question then is, how do you feel and if you are, if you don't feel happy with it… Although what we do need to be careful of, and you kind of touched on this a bit earlier maybe with the Oprah thing, is social comparison. 

Jean Kittson: Yes. 

Dr Happy: We do need to be careful looking at, you know, let's say you or your husband saying, ‘oh, she's got lots of friends. I don't have enough so I'm inadequate.’ 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah. 

Dr Happy: That's not necessarily the case. Social comparison is problematic and number is one, because as you hinted at, especially on social media, it's not always accurate. Not always truthful. But two, even if it does work for you or Oprah, it doesn't necessarily mean it works for me. 

Wendy Harmer: Mm-hmm. 

Dr Happy: So we've all gotta find our own right way, our own balance, I suppose. And again, for some people that will be a bit easier than others. 

Wendy Harmer: Mm, 

Jean Kittson: Yes. I suppose as you get older too, there's going to be, there's so many more responsibilities in your life. I know that as a carer, people always say, ‘oh, maintain your own friendships and maintain a social life,’ but it's almost impossible if you are a carer for someone and you're on-call and you have to cancel social engagements, and you find yourself drifting away from friends and moving – you're no longer the inner circle of your friendship group. You're getting further and further out. 

And I just wonder if that's– if you can repair that, if that couldn't be repaired when you are, you know, you have more time and let fewer responsibilities. 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah. It feels like, to me, it feels like to me that anyone that you want to have in your life would understand that.

And if, if you picked up the phone and said, ‘look I've been caring for, you know, a sick relative or mum and dad or whatever,’ and I find myself now, you know, I don't have that as much responsibility anymore for whatever reason, whether there's been a bereavement or whatever that if you, if that, if you pick up the phone and that person says, welcome back and I've been thinking of you, and they welcome you with open arms, that's the person you want in your life, don't you think?

Jean Kittson: Definitely. But I think the distance that can happen over years particularly means that people move on with their friendships and their lives have changed and you can no longer be intimately involved with their lives and it takes a lot to catch up. 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah, that's true. 

Jean Kittson: But you really– I think somehow you have to bridge that otherwise you will be lonely.

Dr Happy: It's a really good point. As you were saying that I was, again, reflecting on my personal life as opposed to my professional life. And I was thinking, I've always found it difficult, you know, initially, busy starting my career and trying to establish my career, then getting married, having young children, and at that time, not that many of my friends had young children at the same time. 

So that sort of then, you know– so there was always, and now caring for elderly parents, et cetera. There's always been something that's potentially got in the way, but I am at a stage now where I'm trying to reestablish because I lost – I don't wanna bring this down too much – I lost many years through mental ill health, through quite serious depression, anxiety, and I particularly lost a lot of friendships because I isolated, it wasn't their fault necessarily.

So I'm trying to reestablish it. And it's interesting, and this goes to your point, I think, to see how people respond. And some people are welcoming me back with open arms saying, ‘great, we missed you.’ Other people, not so much. And that's fine, I suppose. I guess you do learn when you do make that effort, who the real friends are.

Wendy Harmer: One of the things that I'd like to talk about is that it is often women in relationships who are doing the heavy lifting when it comes to friendship. Of course this is very problematic if there is a bereavement, you know, and like my dad. My dad ended up living alone without friends. And I mean, it was very, I mean, he ended up, I think they prescribed him Prozac or some darn thing or whatever, but that happens to a lot of men, doesn't it really? It's something to watch out for, I would've  thought. 

Dr Happy: Certainly. Yeah, the research is pretty clear. Older men, well, men generally, tend to be not quite as good at fostering and developing those relationships. It tends to become more problematic as they age, and they tend to become more isolated, which is then a high risk factor for a whole range of problems including depression, but also other health problems as well.

So yeah, it is a big problem and I think we're starting to see a real explosion as this, as the baby boomers really are hitting that, well are at that age now, I suppose, and even Gen X are getting to that point. Things are changing. So when I– I think my generation was sort of the bit of a turning point and then–– 

Well, when, if I look at my son, for example, is in his early twenties and how he interacts, and he might not be typical, but the way he relates to particularly his male friends is very different in a good way, I think.

Jean Kittson: In a good way. Yeah. 

Wendy Harmer: I think I agree. Same with my–– how old's your son? 

Dr Happy: 23. 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah, mine's 28. I see them very accepting of each other. They don't have to, well, you know, maybe this, our particular sort of…

Dr Happy: We might not be typical… 

Wendy Harmer: But they don't have to put on that macho thing, and they're very, it seems to me they do reach out to a friend who's down. You know, going through a hard time, they seem to be softer. 

Dr Happy: I think it is changing. So, I mean, I did a podcast series a few years ago on what does it mean to be a man? And the main thing I took, I learned from, I mean, I was meant to be teaching people, I suppose, but the main thing I learned from that is that there isn't one masculinity. There are masculinities. 

There are multiple ways to quote/unquote be a man. And I think I sort of try and talk a lot about that, particularly young men that, you know, there are different ways to be masculine. There are different ways to show your emotions. There are different ways to be vulnerable.

Again, we'll all do that differently, but if we can be more accepting, I think that's really important because, you know, men as a result of all of that, there are significant health and mental health problems, from poor definitions of masculinity. 

Jean Kittson: Yes, of course. 

Wendy Harmer: Hey Jean, do you reckon you can make a new friend at our age?

Jean Kittson: Well, I was just going to ask you that, in fact, Wendy. I think well, if we take from the men's side, often people of our age and getting older are put into retirement villages or their families say, you know, you go off and sell the family home. And they wanna put us with each other instead of a cross section.

And we’re supposed to make friends like we were back at kindergarten and often people are in their 80s and they move into a whole new community. 

Wendy Harmer: They're quite set in their ways. Of course. 

Jean Kittson: …yes, of course Not flexible. 

Jean Kittson: Well, maybe they just have other, different incapacities. Maybe they can't see very well, maybe they can't hear very well, and you're supposed to start new friendships at that stage in life. I think that from my point of view, but I'd rather ask you both this.. 

Wendy Harmer: …but you've written the books about this… 

Jean Kittson: Well, I wrote books about being, yes, about caring for our elders and how to make sure they got what they wanted and they had the life they wanted. And not many people wanna leave their community at a late age and try to make new friends, that's for sure.

It's very, very difficult. And often it comes with, because of their maybe ill health and they can't– mum had lost her sight for 20 years and mum and dad, both of them couldn't hear very well. So it was harder to make new friends, but they did through groups, like you're saying, how do you make new friends?

It's like the Men Shed, or bowling for the vision impaired – which is a very dangerous sport, I must say – but you make new friends by, and we had…  and there's, you know, choirs and painting and perhaps joining groups where you're not having to go out for a coffee and sit opposite a stranger and try to, you know, find common ground, that you're doing something else. 

It's like the friendships, I imagine, it's like those sometimes very intimate friendships you have with people on a train or a bus or a plane that you know you're never going to see again, and then you just share all sorts of things. 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm really pleased to hear that because I mean, it just sounds horrifying to me, the idea of going to an aged care home and being sat around with a whole lot of people and then think, and someone jollying and like, ‘oh, let's all be friends’. I could not think of anything worse. But you're saying that it doesn't have to be like that. 

Jean Kittson: Oh, there is a lot of community and if you're there for a while, I mean, people often are very– start off not very happy in those sort of places, because they've had illness.

And there'll be a lot of people probably listening to this podcast who are struggling with things that are happening in their lives and thinking, well, how do I even have time for friends? But it is really important, even if you've only got one friend, don't you think?

Dr Happy: Definitely, and I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think it is difficult, I think we all acknowledge that, but it is possible. 

And I think you're right. Joining clubs, societies, community– I mean, I was thinking of my mum who, after mum and dad got divorced and very later became a very passionate bridge player like multiple times a week.

And that was her family. It was her second family. It was– dad's been very involved in Rotary. So some of the– you know, there are communities or groups that already exist, you know, woodworking or sporting or the Men's Sheds for example, that's a great way to do it because you're also pursuing, you know, presuming you're pursuing a passion that you enjoy or some sort of hobby, but you're interacting with other people. So that is possible and it's one of probably, the best and easiest way to do it if that's something you want to or need to do. 

Wendy Harmer: Mm-hmm. I did a little bit of research about this, about resilience in children, and one of the conclusions is that resilience, if a child– a child just needs one adult to make a difference to their resilience. So, and you know, that might not be mum or dad, it could be a friend, could be a relative or whatever, but just that one person, and I'm thinking it's probably the same in old age as well. 

Dr Happy: Yeah, well I talk a lot about happiness and thriving, flourishing, and as I had said earlier, I talk a lot about positive relationships because it's one of the most important contributors.

And I often talk about what I call ‘3:00 AM friends.’ Who would you call at 3:00 AM when the [bleep] hits the fan? – Am I allowed to say that? – When something goes wrong. 

And well like you said, you really only need one. I mean, if you've got two or three. That's just fantastic. But if you've got one person who you can call when something's gone wrong, that's all you need and that's super important at any age really. 

Wendy Harmer: Well I’ve got Jean on speed dial.

Jean Kittson: Call me at 3:00 AM anytime, Wendy. Oh, that's a very great point.

Wendy Harmer: I've never thought of that. That’s a really good point, who would you call? 

Jean Kittson: Who would you call…

Wendy Harmer:…who would you call at 3:00 AM? Well, I know that Jean has been such an extraordinary carer for her mum and dad that I know that she'll have every number of every medical centre, ambulance, where to get drugs…  

Jean Kittson: But which friend would I call? 

Dr Happy: Can I get your number? 

Jean Kittson: And have you got someone you would call after…? 

Dr Happy: Well, at the risk of upsetting Wendy, my wife. And then well, yeah, I'm pretty lucky to have a good family as well. So, I wouldn't say we are best buddies who speak every day, but I have a brother and sister, and we have pretty good, strong relationships.

I think if I needed to, I know either one of them would do whatever they could. I have a father who's still, he's obviously getting– my mother died, but he's elderly and physically sort of isn't able to do much, but he would do whatever he could, obviously. And then, yeah, I do have a small handful of friends who I think if I really needed to and who I have, I suppose in the past, called up when I needed to.

Wendy Harmer: I wanna put this, I mean, I really, really must insist here that, I'm talking about in the event that my husband is like, lying next to me dead or something, who am I gonna call? Because he would be the first person…

Dr Happy:  …well if he's dead there's no point calling anyone! 

Jean Kittson: It's interesting that, well, sometimes people would prefer, well, what am I trying to say here? Sometimes I feel guilty when I think the first people I would call would be in my family. They're the people I'm closest to, probably, and they're the ones that I– we share everything. 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah, of course. 

Jean Kittson: But then psychologically that could be called enmeshment, if I say I'd call my daughters if I, you know, needed something at three in the morning, they'd be the first people that I would.

Wendy Harmer: Of course.

Jean Kittson:  But, I'm not sure whether that's unhealthy or not. 

Dr Happy: No, not necessarily. Enmeshment is maybe the three times a day sort of thing, but calling – and probably I should have put my kids in that when I was talking about earlier as well – but no, I think calling… One of the greatest myths in our society, I think, and one of the greatest myths and misconception about happiness or life generally, is this myth of independence. And I could bang on about neoliberalism… 

Wendy Harmer: …No man is an Island, John Donne…

Dr Happy: But no, well, I think so much of a sort of quote/unquote Western society is focused on independence and individual responsibility. And that's not to say we shouldn't be responsible. Of course we should, but we are social animals.

We're social beings, and there's nothing wrong at all in needing other people and relying on other people. Not every minute of every day for everything. That's problematic. But when something goes wrong, we shouldn't feel bad at all about reaching out and asking for help.

Wendy Harmer: But this is also, this is also a product of the kind of society that we live in. I mean, if you look at those intergenerational households… 

Dr Happy: Mm-hmm. 

Wendy Harmer: …that you see in so many other cultures, of course everyone's enmeshed and everyone's friends, everyone's arguing, everyone's, you know, it's a whole…

Jean Kittson:  Ecosystem… 

Wendy Harmer: …in itself. That's right. And so you've got, living down the street, there's this ecosystem there and this one there and this one there.

But, Australia, of course, we have this thing where, oh, you must grow up and move out of home and it's gonna be great for everyone. And I mean, it's not necessarily. 

Jean Kittson: Well, we're products of the nuclear family, aren't we? Where our… 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah, we sure are. 

Jean Kittson: …our parents were, they were aspirational. They wanted to leave the small towns and the… everyone seemed to think a small town was bad when I was growing up.

And you had to go to the city and that was where the excitement was and the stimulation was, and that's where people got things done and they were more interesting. And now I think we're realising that small towns and villages… 

Dr Happy: …green changes… 

Jean Kittson: …yeah, exactly. They really have so much to offer.

And you were talking about young people beforehand, people in villages, you know, now we need mentors for young people and this great organisation, Raise organisation, that puts mentors in schools. 

And that's another thing you can do if you're older and you wanna connect, you can volunteer to be a mentor for a younger person. A younger person once– you know, we had, when we were in a village, we had mentors, whether we liked it or not. We had companionship because everyone was interested in who we were and what we might contribute to the community. But that's lost. 

Wendy Harmer: Well, I'm glad you're asking. Yes, I will move in with you.

Jean Kittson: Yes. Move in and mentor me, Wendy. 

Dr Happy: No, I think… I couldn't agree more. I think there's no doubt that big cities do offer something like, you know, employment prospects and entertainment variety and even, you know, cafes and restaurants and blah, blah, blah.

But when we're– if you look at the research into, well not happiness at an individual level, but sort of, thriving and flourishing at a sort of higher level,  the happiest places to live tend to be those regional centres that are big enough… so for example, in, you know, New South Wales it would be Orange or Newcastle or Wollongong.

So they're big enough to have everything you might want, but still small enough to have a sense of connection and community. 

Wendy Harmer: …Geelong, Ballarat … 

Dr Happy: Yeah. So every state would have a version of that. 

And that's what you know, I think during COVID for example, we saw a significant shift to some of those places. Because that's what people were looking for, that connection, that community, and many of those people have stayed there or are continuing to move those spaces. 

So, I mean, I suppose if you can find that in the big city, great. That's good. That's what we wanna try and do, those of us that do live in big cities, to find that community through clubs, through societies, through whatever, you know, surf club, for example, that's a great example. Whatever it might be. 

Jean Kittson: That is an excellent piece of advice about finding the connection where you are. So many people reach our age and they decide they want a tree change or a sea change, and they leave their community and then they think their kids will visit, but they're back in the city with their own family earning a living, and then they find they're on their own again, and they've left the people that are really important. Yeah, would you ever move Wendy? 

Wendy Harmer: Oh yes. 

Jean Kittson: …but not far…

Wendy Harmer: Oh, yes! My husband's a bit of a mollusc and a rock. We lived in, I mean I grew up moving all over the place because dad was a rural school teacher. So, I mean, when we talk about friendships, well, you know, I had to make friends over and over and over again. 

And so I think that's why I might just have a little bit of neediness there because I always think, oh, you know, that things that you grow up with, I suppose a pathology. 

I would love to move, but my husband's very content to, you know, where he is. I've got one daughter who lives next door. I mean, I adore that. And then I've got one son who's, you know, he spends a lot of time overseas, so, I've got a bit, you know, I've got a bit of both. Would I move ?

Jean Kittson: Well, you could take your friends with you, obviously you would move in the same area, or would you do a really– I mean… I would be worried about community and friendship moving. 

Wendy Harmer: You have to understand this. Did I say mollusc on a rock? The man is immovable. It's not happening. So, yeah. But, you know, home for me is where I am. You know, I don't– because I grew up in all these different places, I don't really– if you said, Wendy, where's home? I would say, here, Wendy is home. That's where home is for me. So a little bit different. 

Jean Kittson: And Tim, what about you?

Dr Happy: Well, we were chatting before, and we're literally in the process of selling a family home that we've been in for 25 years. But we're probably not going to move very far at all, like a few kilometers. 

But what we have done, because we're empty nesters now, but we've also bought a block of bush, a couple of hours out of Sydney, where we're gradually spending more and more time. So that's thoroughly enjoyable, immersed in nature. So sort of trying to get the best of both worlds. We have a smaller place in Sydney and a nice retreat. 

Jean Kittson: That's perfect. That's like the ideal. 

Wendy Harmer: …best of both worlds. Fantastic. 

Jean Kittson: My sister and I both married people from New South Wales and then my parents moved from Sorento where they'd been for years and years, had a great network of friends and they moved up to New South Wales to be near my sister and I. We both had young kids. We were both, you know, we needed help, and they moved there.

And I went back to Sorento last week, and there were all these people – to do a fundraiser for a hospice – and there were all these people who were friends of mum and dad's. Because they were in business, they had friends that were younger.

We didn't touch on this, but friends of different ages, you know, not just your peers. They had friends who were my age who thought of them really fondly and it was really lovely. It was amazing how warmly they spoke of them and how if mum and dad had turned up again after 20 years, they would just fall straight back into that friendship.

Wendy Harmer: We get back to that, to the kind of culture that we live in that does not make being close as possible as it should. 

Jean Kittson: No, we should never have moved away from mum and dad. We should have stayed near them and they moved to be near us. And, I don't think they– they made some good friends, very, very good friends. But the friendships they'd made over their middle years were the closest friends, and long lasting. I mean, after their death, they were still friends with them. 

In fact, I was saying how I've got this problem because mum and dad's ashes are still in my cupboard, because mum wanted to be scattered at sea and dad wanted to be with mum, but not scattered at sea. So. I'm stuck.

Dr Happy: I'm not gonna get involved in that one! 

Jean Kittson: No, exactly!

Wendy Harmer: I've still got a whole lot of dad's ashes, because he moved around Victoria so much, I've got no idea where I should put them. I'd have to do this tour, you know, Cook’s tour and put I bit there, and a bit there, a bit there…

Jean Kittson: But what I was gonna say, one of these women who– mum had given her her first job, which I didn't really know her. She has a boat and she said I'll take their ashes out and scatter them for you. Wasn't that nice? 

Dr Happy: There you go, a generous offer. 

Jean Kittson: I know… what sort of… that's a pretty good friendship, I would say.

Wendy Harmer: Yeah. I'll scatter your ashes after you die. 

Jean Kittson: Will you? Thank you Wendy.

Wendy Harmer: I think I'll do it in the shoe department at David Jones. 

Jean Kittson: Do it next week…! 

Wendy Harmer: You'd be quite happy there, wouldn't you? 

Jean Kittson: That's where you would be. I'll be in the local op shop. Just leave them there. Someone will probably buy them. Would either of you like to say anything more about the importance of friendship because we can wrap up otherwise. 

Wendy Harmer: I would like to say that I'm still recruiting! 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. I'll share your number!

Wendy Harmer: …So if you'd like to… 

Jean Kittson: …this is Wendy's number

Wendy Harmer:  …if you'd like to be my, where's my camera? If you'd like to be my friend, do drop me a line. 

Look, I am Mrs Have-a-chat. My daughter just says, going down the street with you is a nightmare because I'm like, oh, there's the butcher. I might have a yarn with them. And oh, there's… So, yes. As I say, I'm taking applications.

Dr Happy: Oh. Well, I think I probably already made my point, but I just to reiterate, I'd say there are multiple factors that contribute to living a good and happy life, but if I was gonna say the most important thing, I would say fostering and developing good quality relationships. So, make it a priority. It's just as if not more important than anything else you can possibly do. 

Jean Kittson: Thank you both very much… 

Wendy Harmer: …And thank you for being my friend all these years. Jean Kittson, an ornament to my life. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. I'm a bauble on the Christmas tree of your friendship tower.

Wendy Harmer: Indeed. 

Jean Kittson: Oh no. Well, I'm very proud to be your friend, that's for sure. Thank you both so much. I've learned a lot and I'm gonna ring up some friends now… And thank you for sharing your stories of friendship too. Thanks, Wendy. Thanks, Tim.

Wendy Harmer: You're welcome. Thank you, Jean.

Dr Happy: Thank you. 

Jean Kittson: Thanks.

Thank you to Wendy Harmer and Dr Tim Sharp. You've been listening to DARE: The time of your life, brought to you by Australian seniors. Please leave a review and share this show with someone you know. Visit seniors.com au slash podcast for more episodes. Thank you. Goodbye.