Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

The beloved Oscar winning actor Gene Hackman and his devoted wife Betsy Aracoa found dead and Hackman's home in the last days. A huge twist in the Gene Hackman mystery as police release his wife Betsy's cell phone data.

The beloved Oscar winning actor Gene Hackman and his devoted wife Betsy Aracoa found dead and Hackman's home in the last days. A huge twist in the Gene Hackman mystery as police release his wife Betsy's cell phone data.

I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

New cell phone data calls into question when exactly Gene Hackman's wife Betsy died. The sound off a medical examiner claimed to post mortem showed she died of hintovirus. That's a rare rat born respiratory illness, probably caused by exposure to.

New cell phone data calls into question when exactly Gene Hackman's wife Betsy died. The sound off a medical examiner claimed to post mortem showed she died of hintovirus. That's a rare rat born respiratory illness, probably caused by exposure to.

Wood mice around Feb eleven, a full week.

Wood mice around Feb eleven, a full week.

Before her Oscar winning husband, Gene Hackman died of heart failure combined with Alzheimer's. But now and a bizarre twist, police confirm Betsy made multiple phone calls on Feb twelve, at least a full day after she was believed to have died. What does that mean to the investigation. Let's back it up and take it from the beginning to.

Before her Oscar winning husband, Gene Hackman died of heart failure combined with Alzheimer's. But now and a bizarre twist, police confirm Betsy made multiple phone calls on Feb twelve, at least a full day after she was believed to have died. What does that mean to the investigation. Let's back it up and take it from the beginning to.

Get used to foul to a one person inside a house.

Get used to foul to a one person inside a house.

But at this hour, according to law enforcement, the death of Gene Hackman, his wife and dog.

But at this hour, according to law enforcement, the death of Gene Hackman, his wife and dog.

Suspicious what happened to the oscar winner.

Suspicious what happened to the oscar winner.

Let's go to that nine to one one call listening.

Let's go to that nine to one one call listening.

Hello, I've seen us found to a one decease person at the house, but there's no address. I'm gonna wait for you at the gate. I'm gonna wait for you to please, and somebody's really quick? Are you with a patient?

Hello, I've seen us found to a one decease person at the house, but there's no address. I'm gonna wait for you at the gate. I'm gonna wait for you to please, and somebody's really quick? Are you with a patient?

Now?

Now?

Yeah, I'm over their property. There's no address here, so I have to meet the denialist or the police whoever down at the gatehouse. I'll bring them up here.

Yeah, I'm over their property. There's no address here, so I have to meet the denialist or the police whoever down at the gatehouse. I'll bring them up here.

Curiously, hasn't a seed to say two dead bodies, but that could be easily explained with an innocent explanation that the viewer could only see part of the second dead body.

Curiously, hasn't a seed to say two dead bodies, but that could be easily explained with an innocent explanation that the viewer could only see part of the second dead body.

Let's listen to more a female.

Let's listen to more a female.

And a male probably, I don't know. I don't know if I's just send somebody up here real quick.

And a male probably, I don't know. I don't know if I's just send somebody up here real quick.

Okay?

Okay?

Are they awake? I have no idea?

Are they awake? I have no idea?

Are they breathing? I have no idea.

Are they breathing? I have no idea.

I'm not inside the house. It's closed. It's a lot. I go in, but I see the ladies laying down on a blocker from the window. They appear to be completely awake. Eactly do they appear to be awake or alerts? No? No, no, no, no noise not.

I'm not inside the house. It's closed. It's a lot. I go in, but I see the ladies laying down on a blocker from the window. They appear to be completely awake. Eactly do they appear to be awake or alerts? No? No, no, no, no noise not.

Okay, okay do you ever hear do you hear this talk or cry?

Okay, okay do you ever hear do you hear this talk or cry?

No? No, okay, okay?

No? No, okay, okay?

Are they moving at all?

Are they moving at all?

No, dude, they're not moving. Just sing somebody out here really quick.

No, dude, they're not moving. Just sing somebody out here really quick.

Dude, nine only one dispatchers ever bother you because the call has already said they're two dead people, and the nine only one dispatch says, do they appear to be completely awake?

Dude, nine only one dispatchers ever bother you because the call has already said they're two dead people, and the nine only one dispatch says, do they appear to be completely awake?

Do they appear to be awake or alert? Did you hear them talk or cry? Are they moving?

Do they appear to be awake or alert? Did you hear them talk or cry? Are they moving?

No?

No?

They're dead.

They're dead.

We are talking about an oscar winner, Gene Hagman, his.

We are talking about an oscar winner, Gene Hagman, his.

Wife and their dog.

Wife and their dog.

Now, how can that all be explained away innocently at this hour? As we go to air law enforcement saving the deaths are quote suspicious? Joining me Jessica Fancy, an investigative reporter at the US Son.

Now, how can that all be explained away innocently at this hour? As we go to air law enforcement saving the deaths are quote suspicious? Joining me Jessica Fancy, an investigative reporter at the US Son.

Jessica, thank you for being with us. Let's just start at the beginning.

Jessica, thank you for being with us. Let's just start at the beginning.

How the body of Gene Hackman and his wife and his dog.

How the body of Gene Hackman and his wife and his dog.

Were found.

Were found.

Yeah, really wild scene in Santa Fe. You find the maintenance worker calling nine one one, and he is very frantic and What's something people don't realize was that there were actually two different nine one one calls. The first one, it's a dial to nine one one. The dispatcher picks up and he says Hello, Hello, nine one one Hello, and you hear the dog sparking the background. You hear a man's voice talking, and it just is this very chaotic scene. And then this guy hangs up the phone, and then the nine one one dispatcher tries to call him back again and tries to get the guy back on the phone, and then there's a second phone call to nine one one, So it just paints this really really hectic picture of what's going on. You hear again the two living dogs in the background, presumably the hackman's dogs, and you hear this maintenance worker just very upset distressed. He's trying to tell the nine on one dispatcher that there are two dead people in the house, and nine one one is asking the series of questions about are they breathing like you said, are they talking? And it's this really strange inquiry from the nine one dispatcher. And one of the other interesting things that the maintenance worker says is, you know, as we know The Hackmans were very private people. There were no security cameras at the house. They were extremely extremely private, and he says to the dispatcher, there's not an address for the house, and there's a reason for that, pointing to how private these two people were and how much they protected their celebrity status and really kind of wanted to make sure that people couldn't track them down and kind.

Yeah, really wild scene in Santa Fe. You find the maintenance worker calling nine one one, and he is very frantic and What's something people don't realize was that there were actually two different nine one one calls. The first one, it's a dial to nine one one. The dispatcher picks up and he says Hello, Hello, nine one one Hello, and you hear the dog sparking the background. You hear a man's voice talking, and it just is this very chaotic scene. And then this guy hangs up the phone, and then the nine one one dispatcher tries to call him back again and tries to get the guy back on the phone, and then there's a second phone call to nine one one, So it just paints this really really hectic picture of what's going on. You hear again the two living dogs in the background, presumably the hackman's dogs, and you hear this maintenance worker just very upset distressed. He's trying to tell the nine on one dispatcher that there are two dead people in the house, and nine one one is asking the series of questions about are they breathing like you said, are they talking? And it's this really strange inquiry from the nine one dispatcher. And one of the other interesting things that the maintenance worker says is, you know, as we know The Hackmans were very private people. There were no security cameras at the house. They were extremely extremely private, and he says to the dispatcher, there's not an address for the house, and there's a reason for that, pointing to how private these two people were and how much they protected their celebrity status and really kind of wanted to make sure that people couldn't track them down and kind.

Of were off the grid, so to speak.

Of were off the grid, so to speak.

This is more of what we're learning from the sea. We're Oscar winner, Jane Hagman, wife and dog all found dead.

This is more of what we're learning from the sea. We're Oscar winner, Jane Hagman, wife and dog all found dead.

Listen deputies arrived and gain access to the residents, where they observed missus Aracowa deceased. They continue the search of their home and located mister Hackman in a separate area of the residence, also deceased. A German shepherd was also found deceased, and two other dogs who appeared healthy were located on the property.

Listen deputies arrived and gain access to the residents, where they observed missus Aracowa deceased. They continue the search of their home and located mister Hackman in a separate area of the residence, also deceased. A German shepherd was also found deceased, and two other dogs who appeared healthy were located on the property.

Responding officers find the front door in the glass entry way of Hackman's two story, green colored stuck a home opened a jar just a bit, but there did not appear to be any signs of forced entry. The garage connected to the three point eight million dollar home appeared to be locked, and nothing appeared to be out of place.

Responding officers find the front door in the glass entry way of Hackman's two story, green colored stuck a home opened a jar just a bit, but there did not appear to be any signs of forced entry. The garage connected to the three point eight million dollar home appeared to be locked, and nothing appeared to be out of place.

The garage locked, the door ajar, nothing stolen, nothing ransacked, nothing rummaged through, no items taken, Everything appeared in place.

The garage locked, the door ajar, nothing stolen, nothing ransacked, nothing rummaged through, no items taken, Everything appeared in place.

What does it mean? I know at least.

What does it mean? I know at least.

One expert has focused on the dog for good reason, joining me forensic expert, director and founder of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute and star of its own seven podcasts, Cheryl McCollum.

One expert has focused on the dog for good reason, joining me forensic expert, director and founder of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute and star of its own seven podcasts, Cheryl McCollum.

What about it?

What about it?

I would focus on the dog because you're going to see the pattern of what the Hackmans did. Did they put the dog in the crate in the morning or the evening? That would give you a timetable to start from those patterns. Those habits are really important. The other thing for me is if you talk about a net cropcy for the dog or testing for the animal, that's going to come back quicker than it will for the Hackmans. We may not know for sure for months what may or may not have happened to them, but with that animal we would know much quicker. So my focus would be on the habit. Why do you say that, Cheryl, Because you're not going to have that many You're going to have many more people that have to have an autopsy than an animal that is killed in a situation or died of natural causes or poison. So those tests are going to be able to tell us much much quicker what might have occurred in at home.

I would focus on the dog because you're going to see the pattern of what the Hackmans did. Did they put the dog in the crate in the morning or the evening? That would give you a timetable to start from those patterns. Those habits are really important. The other thing for me is if you talk about a net cropcy for the dog or testing for the animal, that's going to come back quicker than it will for the Hackmans. We may not know for sure for months what may or may not have happened to them, but with that animal we would know much quicker. So my focus would be on the habit. Why do you say that, Cheryl, Because you're not going to have that many You're going to have many more people that have to have an autopsy than an animal that is killed in a situation or died of natural causes or poison. So those tests are going to be able to tell us much much quicker what might have occurred in at home.

So you were saying the reason we would get the results back on the dog more quickly the German shepherd is because there's no line. There's not a long line of gerbils and hamsters and guinea pigs and birds and cats and dogs waiting for an autopsy. Is that your reason for saying that the dog autopsy will come back quicker?

So you were saying the reason we would get the results back on the dog more quickly the German shepherd is because there's no line. There's not a long line of gerbils and hamsters and guinea pigs and birds and cats and dogs waiting for an autopsy. Is that your reason for saying that the dog autopsy will come back quicker?

Correct? Got it?

Correct? Got it?

Got it?

Got it?

Joining me to follow up on that is renowned medical examiner, toxicologist, pathologist, opioid treatment expert, and author of American Narcan doctor William Moroney. Doctor Moroney, thank you for being with us and taking your time away from what you do every day for all of us, Doctor Moroney. With the door ajar, would that rule out carbon monoxide.

Joining me to follow up on that is renowned medical examiner, toxicologist, pathologist, opioid treatment expert, and author of American Narcan doctor William Moroney. Doctor Moroney, thank you for being with us and taking your time away from what you do every day for all of us, Doctor Moroney. With the door ajar, would that rule out carbon monoxide.

In any normal case? The answer is yes, because carbon monoxide has to concentrate, can't concentrate with the door.

In any normal case? The answer is yes, because carbon monoxide has to concentrate, can't concentrate with the door.

OPENRONI, what would be found typically when bodies when someone dies of carbon monoxide?

OPENRONI, what would be found typically when bodies when someone dies of carbon monoxide?

And then I want to follow up with you with the fact that.

And then I want to follow up with you with the fact that.

Both Hackman and his wife were mummified to a degree.

Both Hackman and his wife were mummified to a degree.

But first, the carbon monoxide. Well, in carbon monoxide, the skin is bright red. Now, that may be complicated because they were mummified, but the appearance of the skin and the color of the deceased is the take home point. And the fire department does not enter a building without running a carbon monoxide meter, so they would know that because when they enter then they would have to use a self contained breathing apparatus. So that's the carbon monote Well.

But first, the carbon monoxide. Well, in carbon monoxide, the skin is bright red. Now, that may be complicated because they were mummified, but the appearance of the skin and the color of the deceased is the take home point. And the fire department does not enter a building without running a carbon monoxide meter, so they would know that because when they enter then they would have to use a self contained breathing apparatus. So that's the carbon monote Well.

You're going so fast out to maroney for regular lay people like myself. First of all, why with the victim's face. The victim's face be red due to carbon monoxide poisoning, that's a sure fire giveaway.

You're going so fast out to maroney for regular lay people like myself. First of all, why with the victim's face. The victim's face be red due to carbon monoxide poisoning, that's a sure fire giveaway.

But why because the chemistry of carbon monoxide versus the chemistry of hemoglobin. It's how things work. Hemoglobin allows you to transfer oxygen back and forth carbon monoxide. It's just the color of blood with carbon monoxide in the skin. It doesn't change. And the carbon monoxide molecule permanently sits in the receptor site on the hemoglobin, whereas oxygen moves on and off easily. It's always a red color because that's the chemistry of carbon monoxide.

But why because the chemistry of carbon monoxide versus the chemistry of hemoglobin. It's how things work. Hemoglobin allows you to transfer oxygen back and forth carbon monoxide. It's just the color of blood with carbon monoxide in the skin. It doesn't change. And the carbon monoxide molecule permanently sits in the receptor site on the hemoglobin, whereas oxygen moves on and off easily. It's always a red color because that's the chemistry of carbon monoxide.

A new cell phone data trail throws a rent into the investigation to the death of Gene Hackman and his beloved wife Betsy. She Betsy called Cloudberry Health, a local concierg's medical practice, seeking medical treatment three times on February twelfth, well after the medical examiner says she was dead. A fourth call was also made to Arakawa.

A new cell phone data trail throws a rent into the investigation to the death of Gene Hackman and his beloved wife Betsy. She Betsy called Cloudberry Health, a local concierg's medical practice, seeking medical treatment three times on February twelfth, well after the medical examiner says she was dead. A fourth call was also made to Arakawa.

From the clinic. We're learning this from the BBC.

From the clinic. We're learning this from the BBC.

The clinic told BBC she never received the care she was seeking, and we know she died. We also now know Betsy communicated with a massage therapist on email, went to the grocery store, a pharmacy, and a pet store. She made it back home around five point fifteen that day, and this is according to the family's garage clicker data. Yes, that has tracking data as well. We also have learned that a doctor, doctor Josiah Child, claims that Betsy called and described congestion. She didn't describe any respiratory distress, shortness of breath, or chest pain, all symptoms of the hint of virus. So we know now she did not die on fab eleven because she called the clinic Feb.

The clinic told BBC she never received the care she was seeking, and we know she died. We also now know Betsy communicated with a massage therapist on email, went to the grocery store, a pharmacy, and a pet store. She made it back home around five point fifteen that day, and this is according to the family's garage clicker data. Yes, that has tracking data as well. We also have learned that a doctor, doctor Josiah Child, claims that Betsy called and described congestion. She didn't describe any respiratory distress, shortness of breath, or chest pain, all symptoms of the hint of virus. So we know now she did not die on fab eleven because she called the clinic Feb.

Twelve interesting.

Twelve interesting.

She also called a couple of weeks before her death about getting an echo an echo cardiogram heart scan for her husband. What, if anything, does it mean to the investigation. We don't know now, but this is what we do know.

She also called a couple of weeks before her death about getting an echo an echo cardiogram heart scan for her husband. What, if anything, does it mean to the investigation. We don't know now, but this is what we do know.

Listen.

Listen.

Walking in the front door, officers see a bathroom to the left of the front door, Betsy lying on her right side dead. She is wearing dark gray sweatpants and a light colored sweatshirt. Next to the body is a black space heater near her head, but the report doesn't say if it was on. An open orange prescription bottle with pills scattered on the countertop. There are obvious signs of death, body decomposition, bloating in her face, and mummification in both hands and feet. As deputies continued, they see feet and legs near the kitchen area. Jeene Hackman is found dead in the mudroom, wearing gray sweatpants, a blue long sleeved t shirt, brown slippers, has a walking cane and a pair of sunglasses. Hackman also showed obvious signs of death too.

Walking in the front door, officers see a bathroom to the left of the front door, Betsy lying on her right side dead. She is wearing dark gray sweatpants and a light colored sweatshirt. Next to the body is a black space heater near her head, but the report doesn't say if it was on. An open orange prescription bottle with pills scattered on the countertop. There are obvious signs of death, body decomposition, bloating in her face, and mummification in both hands and feet. As deputies continued, they see feet and legs near the kitchen area. Jeene Hackman is found dead in the mudroom, wearing gray sweatpants, a blue long sleeved t shirt, brown slippers, has a walking cane and a pair of sunglasses. Hackman also showed obvious signs of death too.

Jessica Fann joining US investigative reporter with the US Sun. We're both bodies partially mummified.

Jessica Fann joining US investigative reporter with the US Sun. We're both bodies partially mummified.

And are we sure that door was a jar?

And are we sure that door was a jar?

Yeah, so both both bodies were absolutely partially mummified. Really gruesome scene that police ended up coming upon at the house. At the residence, and you know, we from what we understand, the back door was a jar. It seems like it could have potentially police theorized been a jar to allow the dogs to come in and out of the residence freely. We don't know that for sure. There's different reports about the front door. The maintenance worker initially says in his nine one one call that the front door is locked. When the police get there, the police say that the front door was not locked. So we don't know exactly the situation with the front door, but we do know that the back door absolutely was not only unlocked, but it was open and dogs seemed to be coming in and out of the home freely.

Yeah, so both both bodies were absolutely partially mummified. Really gruesome scene that police ended up coming upon at the house. At the residence, and you know, we from what we understand, the back door was a jar. It seems like it could have potentially police theorized been a jar to allow the dogs to come in and out of the residence freely. We don't know that for sure. There's different reports about the front door. The maintenance worker initially says in his nine one one call that the front door is locked. When the police get there, the police say that the front door was not locked. So we don't know exactly the situation with the front door, but we do know that the back door absolutely was not only unlocked, but it was open and dogs seemed to be coming in and out of the home freely.

Very very curious, And I'm going to follow up in a moment with Cheryl McCollum regarding that door ajar. We've seen that before when pets were involved. Okay, to doctor William Maroney, A lot to break down right there, Doctor Moroney, First of all, mummification, what is it now we believe and I'll get into this too. There's just so much, so many scientific evidence. Is what it's called in the law regarding for instance, the pacemaker, how long had it not been working? And what does that mean? There's a lot to do with this pacemaker. What I'm getting at, Maroney is a timeline. Can you talk to me about what is mummification and how would that happen that quickly? I mean I would expect if they had been dead nine days as we are told based on a lot of different times, circumstantial evidence, extrinsic evidence. I'm very surprised their bodies aren't in decop as opposed.

Very very curious, And I'm going to follow up in a moment with Cheryl McCollum regarding that door ajar. We've seen that before when pets were involved. Okay, to doctor William Maroney, A lot to break down right there, Doctor Moroney, First of all, mummification, what is it now we believe and I'll get into this too. There's just so much, so many scientific evidence. Is what it's called in the law regarding for instance, the pacemaker, how long had it not been working? And what does that mean? There's a lot to do with this pacemaker. What I'm getting at, Maroney is a timeline. Can you talk to me about what is mummification and how would that happen that quickly? I mean I would expect if they had been dead nine days as we are told based on a lot of different times, circumstantial evidence, extrinsic evidence. I'm very surprised their bodies aren't in decop as opposed.

To there's two words that lead us to understand mummification New Mexico. This is totally different than a body dying in Iowa, Connecticut or Wyoming. Bodies desiccate in these kind of environments much faster.

To there's two words that lead us to understand mummification New Mexico. This is totally different than a body dying in Iowa, Connecticut or Wyoming. Bodies desiccate in these kind of environments much faster.

And is that do I have to tell you again? Doctr Moroney desicate?

And is that do I have to tell you again? Doctr Moroney desicate?

I'll try to down.

I'll try to down.

I'll speak rhyme, thank you, yes, and I will take that not in a bad way, dummy down for me.

I'll speak rhyme, thank you, yes, and I will take that not in a bad way, dummy down for me.

It's look in any other environment. Mummification is a general principle that follows nobody goes to the bloating, the bloating around the face, the bloating around the center chest and the torso. Limbs mummifi faster limbs don't usually bloat up with gas. I see it all the time on scenes mummification if somebody's been down a week. But New Mexico, those are the key words. Is why this went through mummification so fast. Air condition, outdoors, whatever the conditions are New Mexico mummification. Drying is really a big part of this.

It's look in any other environment. Mummification is a general principle that follows nobody goes to the bloating, the bloating around the face, the bloating around the center chest and the torso. Limbs mummifi faster limbs don't usually bloat up with gas. I see it all the time on scenes mummification if somebody's been down a week. But New Mexico, those are the key words. Is why this went through mummification so fast. Air condition, outdoors, whatever the conditions are New Mexico mummification. Drying is really a big part of this.

So you're saying mummification what happened much more quickly in New Mexico as opposed to let's just say Manhattan bingo. Yes, because of the dry air and the temperature. Correct correct, Okay, doctor moroney. How can there be bloating and mummification?

So you're saying mummification what happened much more quickly in New Mexico as opposed to let's just say Manhattan bingo. Yes, because of the dry air and the temperature. Correct correct, Okay, doctor moroney. How can there be bloating and mummification?

Okay, because the bloating comes from gas. There's gas. There's bacteria in your body, in your bowels, in your stomach, in your lungs. There's a normal, healthy group of bacteria that lives in you. And as soon as you stop dying, the life cycle of that bacteria is unopposed and it gives off gas. Ordinarily, you swallow them and they pass in your stool, you cough, you blow them out of your nose. Bacteria is a very important part of the body, and when the body no longer can cleanse itself or reestablish fresh new young bacteria, old bacteria and decay cause the body to bloat. These are very specific gases related to decomposition. But the process of bloating is very very common. It's just that you bloat and you dry in different places at different times, and arms and legs are where you mummify. First, nobody said anything about maggots. That's very interesting because blowflies and maggots would allow you more time to actually stage when they died. Nobody's talking about maggots. That's very interesting. That says to me that the house was sealed and it wasn't as open because flies come in anywhere, and when they plant their eggs, they plant them in the eyes, they plant them in the nose, they plant them in the mouth, and they go to other body parts like the rectum, and they multiply as maggots. Nobody's talking about maggots. That's really important here too.

Okay, because the bloating comes from gas. There's gas. There's bacteria in your body, in your bowels, in your stomach, in your lungs. There's a normal, healthy group of bacteria that lives in you. And as soon as you stop dying, the life cycle of that bacteria is unopposed and it gives off gas. Ordinarily, you swallow them and they pass in your stool, you cough, you blow them out of your nose. Bacteria is a very important part of the body, and when the body no longer can cleanse itself or reestablish fresh new young bacteria, old bacteria and decay cause the body to bloat. These are very specific gases related to decomposition. But the process of bloating is very very common. It's just that you bloat and you dry in different places at different times, and arms and legs are where you mummify. First, nobody said anything about maggots. That's very interesting because blowflies and maggots would allow you more time to actually stage when they died. Nobody's talking about maggots. That's very interesting. That says to me that the house was sealed and it wasn't as open because flies come in anywhere, and when they plant their eggs, they plant them in the eyes, they plant them in the nose, they plant them in the mouth, and they go to other body parts like the rectum, and they multiply as maggots. Nobody's talking about maggots. That's really important here too.

Doctor Maroney. I need to understand what you're saying.

Doctor Maroney. I need to understand what you're saying.

It is forensic etymology, the study of bugs, insects as it relates to crime, specifically dead bodies.

It is forensic etymology, the study of bugs, insects as it relates to crime, specifically dead bodies.

So let me understand, doctor Moroney.

So let me understand, doctor Moroney.

For maggots to appear on a dead body, that body must be exposed in some way.

For maggots to appear on a dead body, that body must be exposed in some way.

To the outdoors. So the outdoor, the fly has.

To the outdoors. So the outdoor, the fly has.

To come in, yes, to the residents, to get to the body right right, okay, And even if there are no flies in the area, as soon as the body as someone dies.

To come in, yes, to the residents, to get to the body right right, okay, And even if there are no flies in the area, as soon as the body as someone dies.

They come.

They come.

I don't know that, I'm not an etymologist, but they show up in all sorts of weather conditions.

I don't know that, I'm not an etymologist, but they show up in all sorts of weather conditions.

So you're saying, this is really interesting.

So you're saying, this is really interesting.

Many people believe that with a dead body magots just originate from the body.

Many people believe that with a dead body magots just originate from the body.

That's not true. The fly has to the insect.

That's not true. The fly has to the insect.

The adult insect has to appear and then lay eggs, hence maggots. And you're saying, because there were none, that door must not have been a jar the entire time.

The adult insect has to appear and then lay eggs, hence maggots. And you're saying, because there were none, that door must not have been a jar the entire time.

Field. Yes, And I think it's it's key that they don't talk about maggots. In any other case where anybody dies outdoors, you always bring in a forensic entomologist and the MAGGI help you apply a timeline. Maggots are on the body the first hour it dies, outdoors. So if you don't have any maggots at all, then there were never any openings for windows or doors the whole time this was going on, and the mummification comes from the air conditioning.

Field. Yes, And I think it's it's key that they don't talk about maggots. In any other case where anybody dies outdoors, you always bring in a forensic entomologist and the MAGGI help you apply a timeline. Maggots are on the body the first hour it dies, outdoors. So if you don't have any maggots at all, then there were never any openings for windows or doors the whole time this was going on, and the mummification comes from the air conditioning.

Hagmann's daughter, Leslie tells reporters that she hadn't seen her father or stepmother in a few months since she lives in California. As far as talking to her dad, she said it had also been a couple of months, but she adds they were closed. She says everything seemed normal and good. Her father was in good shape, doing pilates and yoga multiple times a week.

Hagmann's daughter, Leslie tells reporters that she hadn't seen her father or stepmother in a few months since she lives in California. As far as talking to her dad, she said it had also been a couple of months, but she adds they were closed. She says everything seemed normal and good. Her father was in good shape, doing pilates and yoga multiple times a week.

For alert. I have no idea.

For alert. I have no idea.

I'm not inside the house. Its closed as long as I can't go in. But I see that maybe she's laying down a blow from the windows. Okay, I'll femail and email probably, I don't know. I don't know if hers been somebody up both.

I'm not inside the house. Its closed as long as I can't go in. But I see that maybe she's laying down a blow from the windows. Okay, I'll femail and email probably, I don't know. I don't know if hers been somebody up both.

What do we know about the death of Gene Hackman, his wife and dog.

What do we know about the death of Gene Hackman, his wife and dog.

At this hour, law enforcement still saying that the deaths are suspicious, not ruling it accident, not ruling it suicide, and now we're learning carbon monoxide very unlikely. Of course, theories emerge actor Randy Quaid claims Gene Hackman and his wife were murdered. Quaid shared his theory, calling on news agencies to stop talking about the films.

At this hour, law enforcement still saying that the deaths are suspicious, not ruling it accident, not ruling it suicide, and now we're learning carbon monoxide very unlikely. Of course, theories emerge actor Randy Quaid claims Gene Hackman and his wife were murdered. Quaid shared his theory, calling on news agencies to stop talking about the films.

He is in.

He is in.

This is how they get away with murdering famous people.

This is how they get away with murdering famous people.

To doctor Bethany Marshall joining me, a renounced psychoanalysts out of the LA jurisdiction, author of deal Breaker. You can find her at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. You can also see her on Peacock Now, doctor Bethany Now. Murder theories are abounding, and part of that reason is because we're not hearing it with suicide for obvious reasons.

To doctor Bethany Marshall joining me, a renounced psychoanalysts out of the LA jurisdiction, author of deal Breaker. You can find her at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. You can also see her on Peacock Now, doctor Bethany Now. Murder theories are abounding, and part of that reason is because we're not hearing it with suicide for obvious reasons.

We're not hearing it was accident. But yet there was.

We're not hearing it was accident. But yet there was.

No break in, no forced entry a parent, and we can't find anything missing from the home. So naturally people start thinking murder.

No break in, no forced entry a parent, and we can't find anything missing from the home. So naturally people start thinking murder.

That's right, Nancy, But there's so many other things that could have taken place. And what I would be mostly concerned about, just from a behavioral perspective, is did this couple have any negative large events looming.

That's right, Nancy, But there's so many other things that could have taken place. And what I would be mostly concerned about, just from a behavioral perspective, is did this couple have any negative large events looming.

In their life, like a cancer.

In their life, like a cancer.

Diagnosis, not able to pay a mortgage. I know that sounds strange, but I would take that into account. Why was there a two month break in talking to Jean Kackman's daughter, because older couples are much more safe when they are in contact with their families. Were their bills that weren't paid? Was the door typically blocked open? Was there a caregiver or somebody who came in and out of a house. Was there an accountant who paid their bills?

Diagnosis, not able to pay a mortgage. I know that sounds strange, but I would take that into account. Why was there a two month break in talking to Jean Kackman's daughter, because older couples are much more safe when they are in contact with their families. Were their bills that weren't paid? Was the door typically blocked open? Was there a caregiver or somebody who came in and out of a house. Was there an accountant who paid their bills?

How was their food prepared? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

How was their food prepared? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

At this hour regarding the deaths of Gene Hackman and his devoted wife Betsy.

At this hour regarding the deaths of Gene Hackman and his devoted wife Betsy.

At this hour, we.

At this hour, we.

Are learning that Hackman's family is also blocking autopsy results for both the star actor and his wife. Reportedly, Hackman's family seeking to block the autopsy reports, photos, and investigation details regarding the actor and his wife. She was a classical pianist, Betsy was now the move is highly unusual to try and block autopsy reports, but it could be because of the interest in his case. And they don't want the photos from the death, including photos of their dead bodies and more to be released to the public. And do you blame them, I don't. We don't know where that is going to land. But this is what we do know about the death.

Are learning that Hackman's family is also blocking autopsy results for both the star actor and his wife. Reportedly, Hackman's family seeking to block the autopsy reports, photos, and investigation details regarding the actor and his wife. She was a classical pianist, Betsy was now the move is highly unusual to try and block autopsy reports, but it could be because of the interest in his case. And they don't want the photos from the death, including photos of their dead bodies and more to be released to the public. And do you blame them, I don't. We don't know where that is going to land. But this is what we do know about the death.

From this search warrant. There were two green and color cell phones, two bottles of medication, one bottle of over the counter tilean on my request, medical records, and a twenty twenty five monthly planner calendar. Mister Hackman and Miss Arikawa were transported to the office of the Medical Investigator. An autopsy was performed. Initial findings noted no external trauma to either individual. The manner and cause of death has not been determined. The official results of the autopsy and toxicology reports are pending.

From this search warrant. There were two green and color cell phones, two bottles of medication, one bottle of over the counter tilean on my request, medical records, and a twenty twenty five monthly planner calendar. Mister Hackman and Miss Arikawa were transported to the office of the Medical Investigator. An autopsy was performed. Initial findings noted no external trauma to either individual. The manner and cause of death has not been determined. The official results of the autopsy and toxicology reports are pending.

Is that correct, Jessica, No external trauma. That means no gunshot wound, no stabbing, no obvious size of ligature or manual strangulation, no bludgeoning.

Is that correct, Jessica, No external trauma. That means no gunshot wound, no stabbing, no obvious size of ligature or manual strangulation, no bludgeoning.

Correct. Correct.

Correct. Correct.

I mean, it's definitely a suspicious case and there's no clear trauma to the bottom. What we do know is that investigators found several types of pills, thyroid medication, blood pressure medication, and over.

I mean, it's definitely a suspicious case and there's no clear trauma to the bottom. What we do know is that investigators found several types of pills, thyroid medication, blood pressure medication, and over.

The counter tile and all.

The counter tile and all.

One of the things that's being reported right now from the New York Times is that the pills that were found near Betsy's body are still unidentified, so we don't quite know why those pills that were scattered, what those pills that were scattered on the countertop necessarily were and we know that these two were found in separate rooms. Gene appeared to have been found in what would be the homes and mudroom with his cane nearby and his sunglasses nearby, looking as if he had just simply fallen, whereas she appeared to have possibly fallen and knocked over a space heater on her way down in the bathroom. But we just don't have the answers yet. We don't understand why both of these people were found dead. And definitely it appears that they were found they had passed at least in the last couple of weeks, because people had seen them three weeks ago in the neighborhood.

One of the things that's being reported right now from the New York Times is that the pills that were found near Betsy's body are still unidentified, so we don't quite know why those pills that were scattered, what those pills that were scattered on the countertop necessarily were and we know that these two were found in separate rooms. Gene appeared to have been found in what would be the homes and mudroom with his cane nearby and his sunglasses nearby, looking as if he had just simply fallen, whereas she appeared to have possibly fallen and knocked over a space heater on her way down in the bathroom. But we just don't have the answers yet. We don't understand why both of these people were found dead. And definitely it appears that they were found they had passed at least in the last couple of weeks, because people had seen them three weeks ago in the neighborhood.

Doctor William Maroney, joining US renowned medical examiner lightning around this.

Doctor William Maroney, joining US renowned medical examiner lightning around this.

Is a yes, no.

Is a yes, no.

Can you die of a thyroid overdose? Thyroid medicine?

Can you die of a thyroid overdose? Thyroid medicine?

Not that fast? Yes, not that fast?

Not that fast? Yes, not that fast?

Okay, what about blood pressure mads? Can you die of an od on blood pressure mads?

Okay, what about blood pressure mads? Can you die of an od on blood pressure mads?

That blood pressure medicine specifically is known as a calcium channel blocker. One of the things it does is it slows the heart rate. If you took too much, it would stop.

That blood pressure medicine specifically is known as a calcium channel blocker. One of the things it does is it slows the heart rate. If you took too much, it would stop.

Your heart, but wouldn't that show up in the autopsy.

Your heart, but wouldn't that show up in the autopsy.

No.

No.

Well, see the problem with the autopsy and things like that is they have a predetermined panel of illegal drugs they looked at. They might have to send out dilthiasm toxicology to somebody else because for the same reason that the animal toxicology and autopsies are done faster. I don't know that any medical examiner can give you a fast level of del taiasm levels. Diocetyl dltiism would be the metabolite, and you'd look at both of them to see if it was an acute like took a handful of and died, or whether we were just taking too much. You've forgotten it slowed your heart rate. It's a calcium channel.

Well, see the problem with the autopsy and things like that is they have a predetermined panel of illegal drugs they looked at. They might have to send out dilthiasm toxicology to somebody else because for the same reason that the animal toxicology and autopsies are done faster. I don't know that any medical examiner can give you a fast level of del taiasm levels. Diocetyl dltiism would be the metabolite, and you'd look at both of them to see if it was an acute like took a handful of and died, or whether we were just taking too much. You've forgotten it slowed your heart rate. It's a calcium channel.

Blocker that would require But Joshua Ritter joining me, a high profile criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor, star of Courtroom Confidential on YouTube, Joshua is not working. Everything he just said, Ronnie is correct, But you would have to assume that she the wife, Betsy decided to o date on BP blood pressure appeals. Then he oded on blood pressure peeals in a different area, fully closed, looking like he was about to walk out the door, and the dog they forest fed the dog blood pressure medication. It doesn't fit this scenario, Josh rit Er, I understand why the murder theories are taking root.

Blocker that would require But Joshua Ritter joining me, a high profile criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor, star of Courtroom Confidential on YouTube, Joshua is not working. Everything he just said, Ronnie is correct, But you would have to assume that she the wife, Betsy decided to o date on BP blood pressure appeals. Then he oded on blood pressure peeals in a different area, fully closed, looking like he was about to walk out the door, and the dog they forest fed the dog blood pressure medication. It doesn't fit this scenario, Josh rit Er, I understand why the murder theories are taking root.

No, absolutely, none of it seems to add up because you have two people who seem to have collapsed where they stood. That's my biggest problem is it's not like they were one of them was lying in bed or sitting on a chair. They literally seem to have been standing and then collapsed on the floor and were found where they stood. And it seems I think it's safe to assume in surmise that it happened close in time to each other, because neither one of them called nine to one one for assistance on the other person. So you've got to assume you've now got two people who collapse where they stood close in time to each other, if not at the same time. To me, that's absolutely suspicious. You have to look into that. I think you have to do exactly what law enforcement is doing, getting sirch warrants, starting to gather information, not jumping to any kind of conclusions, because do these types of things happen and where two people might collapse close in time to each other. I I'm sure that they may have happened before in the past, but to assume that that's exactly what happened here and was either, like you said, natural causes or or some sort of accident, I think would be a mistake at this point in the investigation.

No, absolutely, none of it seems to add up because you have two people who seem to have collapsed where they stood. That's my biggest problem is it's not like they were one of them was lying in bed or sitting on a chair. They literally seem to have been standing and then collapsed on the floor and were found where they stood. And it seems I think it's safe to assume in surmise that it happened close in time to each other, because neither one of them called nine to one one for assistance on the other person. So you've got to assume you've now got two people who collapse where they stood close in time to each other, if not at the same time. To me, that's absolutely suspicious. You have to look into that. I think you have to do exactly what law enforcement is doing, getting sirch warrants, starting to gather information, not jumping to any kind of conclusions, because do these types of things happen and where two people might collapse close in time to each other. I I'm sure that they may have happened before in the past, but to assume that that's exactly what happened here and was either, like you said, natural causes or or some sort of accident, I think would be a mistake at this point in the investigation.

Hello, money, I think we just found to a one defief person inside the house. But the year there's nobody dress. I'm gonna wait for you at the gate. I'm gonna wait for you and somebody really are now yeah, I'm their property. There's no address here, so I have to meet the animalist or the police whoever down at the gatehouse. I'll bring them up here. I don't even know. You're like, no, they're not moving.

Hello, money, I think we just found to a one defief person inside the house. But the year there's nobody dress. I'm gonna wait for you at the gate. I'm gonna wait for you and somebody really are now yeah, I'm their property. There's no address here, so I have to meet the animalist or the police whoever down at the gatehouse. I'll bring them up here. I don't even know. You're like, no, they're not moving.

Just bring somebody up here, And in less hours we learn an obvious possible cause of death has been ruled out.

Just bring somebody up here, And in less hours we learn an obvious possible cause of death has been ruled out.

Both individuals tested negative for carbon monoxide. An initial interrogation was conducted of mister Hackman's pacemaker. This revealed that his nasty event was recorded on February seventeenth, twenty twenty five.

Both individuals tested negative for carbon monoxide. An initial interrogation was conducted of mister Hackman's pacemaker. This revealed that his nasty event was recorded on February seventeenth, twenty twenty five.

Doctor William Ronney, What does that mean his last event? You mean, for instance, the last time the pacemaker was on, No.

Doctor William Ronney, What does that mean his last event? You mean, for instance, the last time the pacemaker was on, No.

The last time the pacemaker interacted with his heart. His heart was monitored by the pacemaker, and what that says to me, once you die, the pacemaker continues to send spikes, but heart no longer responds. There is no event that the heart is responding to and they see when that is. So that would be like the traditional All American heart attack happened on that day and after that event, the heart no longer was beating. That's the event he's talking about.

The last time the pacemaker interacted with his heart. His heart was monitored by the pacemaker, and what that says to me, once you die, the pacemaker continues to send spikes, but heart no longer responds. There is no event that the heart is responding to and they see when that is. So that would be like the traditional All American heart attack happened on that day and after that event, the heart no longer was beating. That's the event he's talking about.

Okay, Cheryl McCollum and joining US coll Case Investigative Research Institute. Cheryl, my first thought was carbon monoxide, but then when I heard the door was a jar, in my mind, that ruled out carbon monoxide.

Okay, Cheryl McCollum and joining US coll Case Investigative Research Institute. Cheryl, my first thought was carbon monoxide, but then when I heard the door was a jar, in my mind, that ruled out carbon monoxide.

And the fact.

And the fact.

That the dog is dead too, to me, that rules out accident. Because you want me to think Gene Hackman had an accident and died, then his wife had an accident and died, and then the dog had an accident and died.

That the dog is dead too, to me, that rules out accident. Because you want me to think Gene Hackman had an accident and died, then his wife had an accident and died, and then the dog had an accident and died.

No, agreed. So what we would do in this situation is look at what is there and what's not there. Some of the things that aren't there. There's no blood, there's no weapon, there's no shellcasing, there's no sign of a struggle. Nothing of value is missing. There's no note. Most importantly, there was not a nine one one call that came from inside that residence for help. So whatever transpired, it does seem happen very quickly. Again, it's going to go back to patterns. You have two animals that were not in a crate that survives. Why was the one in the crate? People that are close to them may be able to tell law enforcement. The German shepherd is put in the crate. When mister Hackman goes for a walk. He had sunglasses and.

No, agreed. So what we would do in this situation is look at what is there and what's not there. Some of the things that aren't there. There's no blood, there's no weapon, there's no shellcasing, there's no sign of a struggle. Nothing of value is missing. There's no note. Most importantly, there was not a nine one one call that came from inside that residence for help. So whatever transpired, it does seem happen very quickly. Again, it's going to go back to patterns. You have two animals that were not in a crate that survives. Why was the one in the crate? People that are close to them may be able to tell law enforcement. The German shepherd is put in the crate. When mister Hackman goes for a walk. He had sunglasses and.

A cane and was dressed.

A cane and was dressed.

Perhaps he was headed outside when either he fail or whatever occurred happened. But that's the kind of thing you're going to run into is two almost parallel investigations. You're going to look at what happened to mister Hackman and what happened to his wife, and you would almost do two separate investigations.

Perhaps he was headed outside when either he fail or whatever occurred happened. But that's the kind of thing you're going to run into is two almost parallel investigations. You're going to look at what happened to mister Hackman and what happened to his wife, and you would almost do two separate investigations.

There, you're absolutely correct, two separate investigations, and where you're learning, according to law enforcement, that they can't determine who died first, which could be critical into solving the mystery of Jane Hackman's death.

There, you're absolutely correct, two separate investigations, and where you're learning, according to law enforcement, that they can't determine who died first, which could be critical into solving the mystery of Jane Hackman's death.

Listen, that's a very hard.

Listen, that's a very hard.

Thing to determine, even with the assistance of Omi We asked that question because that's a question that we want answered. That's a very hard determination to make, and I don't think even Omi could make that determination based on the initial autopsy.

Thing to determine, even with the assistance of Omi We asked that question because that's a question that we want answered. That's a very hard determination to make, and I don't think even Omi could make that determination based on the initial autopsy.

What about it, doctor Moroni? Determining who died first, It's impossible.

What about it, doctor Moroni? Determining who died first, It's impossible.

You know what time he died, You don't have a timeline for when she died and how it happened two separate investigations. Then you can't determine who was first unless there was security cameras, and there's no security cameras.

You know what time he died, You don't have a timeline for when she died and how it happened two separate investigations. Then you can't determine who was first unless there was security cameras, and there's no security cameras.

Well, wait a minute, hold on, Dr Morony.

Well, wait a minute, hold on, Dr Morony.

Isn't it true if one of them died substantially significantly before the other, the degree of decomposition would be different.

Isn't it true if one of them died substantially significantly before the other, the degree of decomposition would be different.

It would have to be a good full half day or full day before. You can't really tell a couple hours, but if it was like a full half day before.

It would have to be a good full half day or full day before. You can't really tell a couple hours, but if it was like a full half day before.

Crime stories with Nancy Grace, also in the Last Days, we are learning that Gene Hackman made a huge mistake before his shock death, as a major battle over his eighty million dollar estate looms. What was the mistake? He had a living trust at the time of his death at ninety five, but all the people he listed as successor trustees were already dead before he passed. Now, according to documents we have learned about, a representative of Hackman's estate fought a petition requesting a new temporary success or trustee be appointed.

Crime stories with Nancy Grace, also in the Last Days, we are learning that Gene Hackman made a huge mistake before his shock death, as a major battle over his eighty million dollar estate looms. What was the mistake? He had a living trust at the time of his death at ninety five, but all the people he listed as successor trustees were already dead before he passed. Now, according to documents we have learned about, a representative of Hackman's estate fought a petition requesting a new temporary success or trustee be appointed.

That means Gene Hackman's estate is in flux.

That means Gene Hackman's estate is in flux.

Right now, we are also learning the fate of Hackmans and Betsy's surviving dogs. They love them and treated them like children. We know seven year old German shepherd Bear and Nikita have lost each other's companionship. They have been split up, but they are placed in loving, welcoming homes after enduring weeks of hell in the house where their beloved mom and dad, Jane and Betsy passed away.

Right now, we are also learning the fate of Hackmans and Betsy's surviving dogs. They love them and treated them like children. We know seven year old German shepherd Bear and Nikita have lost each other's companionship. They have been split up, but they are placed in loving, welcoming homes after enduring weeks of hell in the house where their beloved mom and dad, Jane and Betsy passed away.

Where were the other two dogs? Do we know?

Where were the other two dogs? Do we know?

You know? From the nine to one one calls, we hear the dogs barking in the background. We're, of course assuming that those were the Hackman's dogs. We don't know where they were found. But the way the nine on one calls play out, it sounds like they're just kind of roaming around on the property. It doesn't seem like they're inside anywhere. It just seems like they're kind of like free wheeling outside. From just from the way the ninemal one calls are the way that echoing of the dogs barking in the background can be heard.

You know? From the nine to one one calls, we hear the dogs barking in the background. We're, of course assuming that those were the Hackman's dogs. We don't know where they were found. But the way the nine on one calls play out, it sounds like they're just kind of roaming around on the property. It doesn't seem like they're inside anywhere. It just seems like they're kind of like free wheeling outside. From just from the way the ninemal one calls are the way that echoing of the dogs barking in the background can be heard.

The Santa Fe County share of Adam Mendoza stating he's trying to create a reverse timeline again.

The Santa Fe County share of Adam Mendoza stating he's trying to create a reverse timeline again.

That'll be part of our investigation. We will look and try to gain access to the cell phones. We'll be analyzing cell phone data, phone calls, text messages, events, photos in the cell phone to try to piece a timeline together. One of the things is in an investigation is we try a piece of timeline together, usually before the event happens, and that gives us a lot of information. But in this case, it seems like we're doing a reverse timeline. We're doing a timeline from the time of death and the autopsy and the results, and we're going to start working our way backwards. We're going to do both and then hopefully make a determination what may have happened to both the individuals.

That'll be part of our investigation. We will look and try to gain access to the cell phones. We'll be analyzing cell phone data, phone calls, text messages, events, photos in the cell phone to try to piece a timeline together. One of the things is in an investigation is we try a piece of timeline together, usually before the event happens, and that gives us a lot of information. But in this case, it seems like we're doing a reverse timeline. We're doing a timeline from the time of death and the autopsy and the results, and we're going to start working our way backwards. We're going to do both and then hopefully make a determination what may have happened to both the individuals.

Okay, a reverse timeline based on digital what does that mean? Looking at cell phone data, computer data? Who were they speaking to when? What were they looking up on Google? When's the last time they logged in or made a phone call? Not only that, when it was the last time people call them and they didn't pick up.

Okay, a reverse timeline based on digital what does that mean? Looking at cell phone data, computer data? Who were they speaking to when? What were they looking up on Google? When's the last time they logged in or made a phone call? Not only that, when it was the last time people call them and they didn't pick up.

There's more to it, Cheryl McCollum. Think back, Dare I bring his name up?

There's more to it, Cheryl McCollum. Think back, Dare I bring his name up?

Conjure him? Alex Murdog. The digital data in that case was overwhelming. As a matter of fact, I believe that's how the state finally proved Murdog guilty of double murder and the deaths of his wife Maggie and son Paul. The cell phone data compared with the geopositioning and the NAV system in his suburban really nailed his coffin. So what do you make of the fact that they're making a reverse timeline, Cheryl?

Conjure him? Alex Murdog. The digital data in that case was overwhelming. As a matter of fact, I believe that's how the state finally proved Murdog guilty of double murder and the deaths of his wife Maggie and son Paul. The cell phone data compared with the geopositioning and the NAV system in his suburban really nailed his coffin. So what do you make of the fact that they're making a reverse timeline, Cheryl?

And also they have seized pursuit to Warren.

And also they have seized pursuit to Warren.

Of course their daytime planners. What does that tell you they're looking at.

Of course their daytime planners. What does that tell you they're looking at.

So they're going to take that planner and they're going to cross check it with what was looked at on the phone, dates, calls, appointment, any future event they had that the person that actually found them was somebody owned the property doing work that would be in their planner. So they're going to look at all that to make sure everything lines up and coincides with what they know the Hackmans were doing the weeks before in what they had planned week after.

So they're going to take that planner and they're going to cross check it with what was looked at on the phone, dates, calls, appointment, any future event they had that the person that actually found them was somebody owned the property doing work that would be in their planner. So they're going to look at all that to make sure everything lines up and coincides with what they know the Hackmans were doing the weeks before in what they had planned week after.

Well, you know, Josh Ritter, you and I've tried on different sides of the fence, of course, many many homicide cases, and I look at planners to determine did they have plans in the future. In other words, when people have plans in the future, they don't usually commit suicide. If they're looking forward to something like my twins' spring break. I'm looking forward to that.

Well, you know, Josh Ritter, you and I've tried on different sides of the fence, of course, many many homicide cases, and I look at planners to determine did they have plans in the future. In other words, when people have plans in the future, they don't usually commit suicide. If they're looking forward to something like my twins' spring break. I'm looking forward to that.

Okay, that's just an example.

Okay, that's just an example.

But also for forensic reasons, for proative reasons, you look to see who's the last person there the day that his pacemaker stopped working, what were they doing, who was in the home, what was happening. That's why they're looking at the planner.

But also for forensic reasons, for proative reasons, you look to see who's the last person there the day that his pacemaker stopped working, what were they doing, who was in the home, what was happening. That's why they're looking at the planner.

Josh.

Josh.

Absolutely, they're trying to reconstruct the events leading up to it. And to your point too, are there events, are their appointments in the future, and if so, does that show planning for the future which you might be able to roll that suicide? But did they miss appointments that no one noticed? And should those people have noticed? Do they have an appointment with someone and that person they didn't meet that appointment with that person, and that person didn't alert anyone or didn't seem bothered by the fact that they missed this event. So I think the planner can be a treasure tros of information as far as they're not only there mundane day to day life, but also the events that they had planned before and after and what that might provide some insight into this investigation.

Absolutely, they're trying to reconstruct the events leading up to it. And to your point too, are there events, are their appointments in the future, and if so, does that show planning for the future which you might be able to roll that suicide? But did they miss appointments that no one noticed? And should those people have noticed? Do they have an appointment with someone and that person they didn't meet that appointment with that person, and that person didn't alert anyone or didn't seem bothered by the fact that they missed this event. So I think the planner can be a treasure tros of information as far as they're not only there mundane day to day life, but also the events that they had planned before and after and what that might provide some insight into this investigation.

So, you know, I respect the mister Hackman's and miss ourcau was regard for privacy. I think everybody here understands that they were very private individuals and a very private family. There is no surveyance as we right now in the interior of the residence or the exterior of the residents that it's going to help us determine our time nine or events that happened.

So, you know, I respect the mister Hackman's and miss ourcau was regard for privacy. I think everybody here understands that they were very private individuals and a very private family. There is no surveyance as we right now in the interior of the residence or the exterior of the residents that it's going to help us determine our time nine or events that happened.

That was Santa Fe County Sheriff speaking aid in Mendoza. What does that mean to be no surveillance, no surveillance, And let me clarify that, Cheryl McCollum, there's no home surveillance in the home of a multi time.

That was Santa Fe County Sheriff speaking aid in Mendoza. What does that mean to be no surveillance, no surveillance, And let me clarify that, Cheryl McCollum, there's no home surveillance in the home of a multi time.

Oscar winner Rick, no surveillance.

Oscar winner Rick, no surveillance.

Hence the theories of murder and or suicide are abounding. To Jessica Finn, carbon monoxide and I've got a huge list of celebs and others that die of carbon monoxide has been ruled out. The levels tested in the autosy prove it wasn't CM. That was everyone's first thought. That's been put to bed. No one sees suicide either. It's just doesn't make sense that they would both commit suicide in different rooms with no suicide note, falling like that look appearing as if they had fallen. I mean, hold on, doctor William Roney, the method and assessment of suicide is not consistent with the way these bodies were found.

Hence the theories of murder and or suicide are abounding. To Jessica Finn, carbon monoxide and I've got a huge list of celebs and others that die of carbon monoxide has been ruled out. The levels tested in the autosy prove it wasn't CM. That was everyone's first thought. That's been put to bed. No one sees suicide either. It's just doesn't make sense that they would both commit suicide in different rooms with no suicide note, falling like that look appearing as if they had fallen. I mean, hold on, doctor William Roney, the method and assessment of suicide is not consistent with the way these bodies were found.

No suicide usually means there's some kind of preparation. It doesn't always mean a note, but it means somebody's taken time to send a message and organize clothes, pills. They look nice. There's text messages and other communications would give you a clue that suicide is a possibility, and that usually follows treatment resistment depression. That we don't have any sign that these people have major depressive disorders, not at all.

No suicide usually means there's some kind of preparation. It doesn't always mean a note, but it means somebody's taken time to send a message and organize clothes, pills. They look nice. There's text messages and other communications would give you a clue that suicide is a possibility, and that usually follows treatment resistment depression. That we don't have any sign that these people have major depressive disorders, not at all.

As a matter of fact, Jessica Finn, the US son.

As a matter of fact, Jessica Finn, the US son.

The daughter says that her dad was actually doing great, doing polles and yoga multiple times a week. They were going out to dinner with France. Nothing suggests to suicide.

The daughter says that her dad was actually doing great, doing polles and yoga multiple times a week. They were going out to dinner with France. Nothing suggests to suicide.

Yeah, Jean and his wife really took care of their health. They were really active in the community. She made sure that he was in top, top notch shape. He was doing ploates, like you.

Yeah, Jean and his wife really took care of their health. They were really active in the community. She made sure that he was in top, top notch shape. He was doing ploates, like you.

Said, staying fit.

Said, staying fit.

The whole investigation gives us more questions than there are answers. I mean, for both of these people to have died and they looked like they dropped where they were standing in two separate places in the home. You know, we can't figure out whether this was what kind of foul play that the police are investigating at this moment. But yeah, it certainly is a conundrum. It doesn't seem like these people were in distress together and they were very much in love from what we've heard.

The whole investigation gives us more questions than there are answers. I mean, for both of these people to have died and they looked like they dropped where they were standing in two separate places in the home. You know, we can't figure out whether this was what kind of foul play that the police are investigating at this moment. But yeah, it certainly is a conundrum. It doesn't seem like these people were in distress together and they were very much in love from what we've heard.

No, I don't think, you know, there was any indication that that. Again, there was no trauma indicated on the body. I'm assuming if they would have fell or you know, injured themselves or head injury or brain injury, that would have been discovered that pathologist. So I'm going to say that they.

No, I don't think, you know, there was any indication that that. Again, there was no trauma indicated on the body. I'm assuming if they would have fell or you know, injured themselves or head injury or brain injury, that would have been discovered that pathologist. So I'm going to say that they.

Work so too, Doctor Bethany Marshall. There's no indication this was an accident, and you just heard the Santa Fe sheriff say that, and plus if one had an accident, what the other has an accident and the dog has an accident.

Work so too, Doctor Bethany Marshall. There's no indication this was an accident, and you just heard the Santa Fe sheriff say that, and plus if one had an accident, what the other has an accident and the dog has an accident.

That that doesn't make sense.

That that doesn't make sense.

We're not getting that the dog starved, nothing like that. So the sheriff is saying, no accident, there's no carbon monoxide. Let's deal with suicide, because I don't see suicide either.

We're not getting that the dog starved, nothing like that. So the sheriff is saying, no accident, there's no carbon monoxide. Let's deal with suicide, because I don't see suicide either.

I don't see suicide either.

I don't see suicide either.

And that's why I asked earlier, was that there's some catastrophe, a catastrophic event looming in their lives which would would make them want not want to live. You know, Nancy, there's an untold story here that I'm very curious about, and that is, even though he was well and doing pilates and taking walks, had she become his caregiver. I do to treat couples in my practice where one partner is ill and the other one is the caregiver, and especially when it's a family member, they typically refuse respite care, meaning they don't want other people to come and help. They want to provide the primary care because they love their family member and the caregiver's health typically breaks down over time. In fact, statistically, we know that there's a greater likelihood of a caregiver dying we maturely when they are taking care of a family member. So had her health been breaking down, and in that case, doctor's records and also looking at that day planner and seeing how many appointments was she going to, how many appointments was she taking him.