Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm Kim O'Brien. Today's Crash Course Elon and Zuck versus Grown up Management. Silicon Valley is many things. It's a hub of revolutionary technological innovation. It's home to novel creative approaches to managing businesses and production. It's a giant storehouse of wealth and startup britches, stretching along a slender strip of land winding south from San Francisco to San Jose. It's also the centerpiece of a very specific kind of bro culture, a culture that has had a certain winner take all mojo over the years, but which may be running its course. That's not to say that the bro's holds will loosen. It just may be that, as Silicon Valley matures, being a bro is in everything that it's cracked up to be, at least when it comes to managing a mature and complex enterprise, instead of say, launching a world beating company from scratch. To test this thesis, I present you with Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg, founders of such landmark companies as Tesla, SpaceX and Meta aka Facebook. They are both innovators, admirable risk takers, and bazillionaires. They've also struggled to evolve to have early vaunted reputations as wise men correspond with equally wise management and wise decisions as the world around them changed, and they recently considered fighting one another in a cage match. Really they did. Joining me today to consider all of this is Kara Swisher. Kara has been watching Silicon Valley since well forever as a journalist, convener of Ideas, raconteur, and residence smarty. She is the host of the On with Kara Swisher and Pivot podcasts. That's a lot of podcasting, and she's an editor at large with New York Magazine. So howdy Cara, Hi, how you doing. I'm good, I'm good. Thanks for joining me today.

Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm Kim O'Brien. Today's Crash Course Elon and Zuck versus Grown up Management. Silicon Valley is many things. It's a hub of revolutionary technological innovation. It's home to novel creative approaches to managing businesses and production. It's a giant storehouse of wealth and startup britches, stretching along a slender strip of land winding south from San Francisco to San Jose. It's also the centerpiece of a very specific kind of bro culture, a culture that has had a certain winner take all mojo over the years, but which may be running its course. That's not to say that the bro's holds will loosen. It just may be that, as Silicon Valley matures, being a bro is in everything that it's cracked up to be, at least when it comes to managing a mature and complex enterprise, instead of say, launching a world beating company from scratch. To test this thesis, I present you with Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg, founders of such landmark companies as Tesla, SpaceX and Meta aka Facebook. They are both innovators, admirable risk takers, and bazillionaires. They've also struggled to evolve to have early vaunted reputations as wise men correspond with equally wise management and wise decisions as the world around them changed, and they recently considered fighting one another in a cage match. Really they did. Joining me today to consider all of this is Kara Swisher. Kara has been watching Silicon Valley since well forever as a journalist, convener of Ideas, raconteur, and residence smarty. She is the host of the On with Kara Swisher and Pivot podcasts. That's a lot of podcasting, and she's an editor at large with New York Magazine. So howdy Cara, Hi, how you doing. I'm good, I'm good. Thanks for joining me today.

No problem.

No problem.

So we may come out of this with different definitions, but can we develop a working definition together of Silicon Valley? Broness, how would you define that?

So we may come out of this with different definitions, but can we develop a working definition together of Silicon Valley? Broness, how would you define that?

Well, it's not meant to be nice, I think at this point there's all kinds of cliches about groups of people Hollywood types or producers or whatever, indie actors, and so it's just a type of person who populates Silicon Valley who they sort of take on the patterns of the others who came before them, and so they pass it down from person person I guess if you had to broadly put it, and I don't think everyone fits into this. It's you know, an arrogance youth, frequently wrong, but never in doubt. Use a word like pivot, and you know, failure is just an opportunity for growth, that kind of stuff, you know, just a sort of basically going through the world and breaking things and then thinking it's someone else's fault almost all the time.

Well, it's not meant to be nice, I think at this point there's all kinds of cliches about groups of people Hollywood types or producers or whatever, indie actors, and so it's just a type of person who populates Silicon Valley who they sort of take on the patterns of the others who came before them, and so they pass it down from person person I guess if you had to broadly put it, and I don't think everyone fits into this. It's you know, an arrogance youth, frequently wrong, but never in doubt. Use a word like pivot, and you know, failure is just an opportunity for growth, that kind of stuff, you know, just a sort of basically going through the world and breaking things and then thinking it's someone else's fault almost all the time.

I mean, is it an unfair broad brush, well sort of. And Silicon Valley and one.

I mean, is it an unfair broad brush, well sort of. And Silicon Valley and one.

People are always like, you know, lesbian's evning a sense of humor. I think I'm very funny, so, you know, I don't know, I just I guess it does tend to fit, though they do tend to dress alike. I think what happens is when you get in any culture, people tend to pattern match people, and so everyone suddenly was behaving like Mark Zuckerberg, right, But Mark Zuckerberg was behaving like people before him. So it's a little true. Like a lot of things it's got a lot of truth to it. And they often do tend to look alike and wear the same clothes and have the same attitudes, but they also contain multitudes. As Walt Whitman wrote.

People are always like, you know, lesbian's evning a sense of humor. I think I'm very funny, so, you know, I don't know, I just I guess it does tend to fit, though they do tend to dress alike. I think what happens is when you get in any culture, people tend to pattern match people, and so everyone suddenly was behaving like Mark Zuckerberg, right, But Mark Zuckerberg was behaving like people before him. So it's a little true. Like a lot of things it's got a lot of truth to it. And they often do tend to look alike and wear the same clothes and have the same attitudes, but they also contain multitudes. As Walt Whitman wrote.

So have I picked well? Do you think that Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg are emblematic of the culture of Bronus Wow?

So have I picked well? Do you think that Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg are emblematic of the culture of Bronus Wow?

In different ways? You know, both have changed rather significantly, although I would say, you know, on the surface, I guess Mark would be the tech bro, of the kind of bro you think about. Although personally he's quite nice. He's quite a nice guy from what I can understand. He's quite a good parent, and he's a good husband, you know what I mean. Like, there's a lot more there than people would think about him. At the same time, he kind of has people following him or trying to be like him essentially, and that way, which is like push through I'm right, even though people said I was wrong, that kind of thing.

In different ways? You know, both have changed rather significantly, although I would say, you know, on the surface, I guess Mark would be the tech bro, of the kind of bro you think about. Although personally he's quite nice. He's quite a nice guy from what I can understand. He's quite a good parent, and he's a good husband, you know what I mean. Like, there's a lot more there than people would think about him. At the same time, he kind of has people following him or trying to be like him essentially, and that way, which is like push through I'm right, even though people said I was wrong, that kind of thing.

You know.

You know.

Right now, he's got a bit of an obsession with athleticism. I assume it's because he wasn't athletic when he was younger. It's quite aggressive. His athleticism is quite aggressive. Let me show you me doing all these hard athletic things or show off my body in some fashion, which I'm fine with. Fine, whatever, he wants to be healthy. So you know, you probably see a lot of people better match that. There's a lot of people they did the same thing when everybody was fasting or whatever, and so you know, he seems like it. Although I think people would be surprised to find him to be a relatively thoughtful and nice person. I know people get angry when I say that, because he's done a lot of damage. His company has done a lot of damage to society. I think so, and so it can be cross purposes with he. Well, you may like him, but he's done terrible things. Well, I'm just pointing out that he's not obnoxious. I've never found him to be particularly obnoxious.

Right now, he's got a bit of an obsession with athleticism. I assume it's because he wasn't athletic when he was younger. It's quite aggressive. His athleticism is quite aggressive. Let me show you me doing all these hard athletic things or show off my body in some fashion, which I'm fine with. Fine, whatever, he wants to be healthy. So you know, you probably see a lot of people better match that. There's a lot of people they did the same thing when everybody was fasting or whatever, and so you know, he seems like it. Although I think people would be surprised to find him to be a relatively thoughtful and nice person. I know people get angry when I say that, because he's done a lot of damage. His company has done a lot of damage to society. I think so, and so it can be cross purposes with he. Well, you may like him, but he's done terrible things. Well, I'm just pointing out that he's not obnoxious. I've never found him to be particularly obnoxious.

But the pro phenomenon is it's a relatively new thing, at least in the dimensions we're talking about it, right. I mean, Silicon Valley's always been a boys club, right, and still largely is. But there's a world of difference between the days of Bill Hewlett and David Packard and Elon and Zach Sure.

But the pro phenomenon is it's a relatively new thing, at least in the dimensions we're talking about it, right. I mean, Silicon Valley's always been a boys club, right, and still largely is. But there's a world of difference between the days of Bill Hewlett and David Packard and Elon and Zach Sure.

They just wore ties. They were just as arrogant like, I'm sorry they were. If you go back and look at that, you know, Thomas Edison was kind of a jackass. So I feel like tech pros have always been somewhat of a jackass, you know, I don't know, there was definitely. I mean I wrote a piece when I came to the Wall Street Journal in the nineties because I started to notice they all had to wear a certain kind of vest. If you're a VCS, you had a different kind of vest, you know, a fleece fest essentially, Patagonia fleece Fest. One of the things I wrote is all the lies they tell themselves, which was one is that, you know, I don't like fancy things. They needed burrito places and meanwhile, jump on the private plane two years later, right, that kind of stuff. And so they sort of had to sort of cosplay being a simple guy just like everybody else, you know, that kind of thing. And I'm not dressing well. I may wander around in Adidas what are they called those things? He wears their flip pops. Essentially. My son will kill me for not knowing what to call this, but you know that kind of thing. I'm a simple guy. I don't need a lot and then of course they all live lives of ridiculous and egregious privilege.

They just wore ties. They were just as arrogant like, I'm sorry they were. If you go back and look at that, you know, Thomas Edison was kind of a jackass. So I feel like tech pros have always been somewhat of a jackass, you know, I don't know, there was definitely. I mean I wrote a piece when I came to the Wall Street Journal in the nineties because I started to notice they all had to wear a certain kind of vest. If you're a VCS, you had a different kind of vest, you know, a fleece fest essentially, Patagonia fleece Fest. One of the things I wrote is all the lies they tell themselves, which was one is that, you know, I don't like fancy things. They needed burrito places and meanwhile, jump on the private plane two years later, right, that kind of stuff. And so they sort of had to sort of cosplay being a simple guy just like everybody else, you know, that kind of thing. And I'm not dressing well. I may wander around in Adidas what are they called those things? He wears their flip pops. Essentially. My son will kill me for not knowing what to call this, but you know that kind of thing. I'm a simple guy. I don't need a lot and then of course they all live lives of ridiculous and egregious privilege.

But there has been a cultural shift, right. I mean, I am amused, and I like the idea of thinking about Thomas Edison as a tech bro. He is, and maybe in his time he was a tech bro for you know the way he rolled then. But I think there's sort of a bravado to it now and a strutting to it now that seems different from Edison. It seems different from Hewlett and Packer.

But there has been a cultural shift, right. I mean, I am amused, and I like the idea of thinking about Thomas Edison as a tech bro. He is, and maybe in his time he was a tech bro for you know the way he rolled then. But I think there's sort of a bravado to it now and a strutting to it now that seems different from Edison. It seems different from Hewlett and Packer.

I think if you look back, do a lot of manipulation of the press, a lot of stuntishness, that kind of stuff. It's not unlike Elon Musk, honestly.

I think if you look back, do a lot of manipulation of the press, a lot of stuntishness, that kind of stuff. It's not unlike Elon Musk, honestly.

But that's like a use of power, which I know has been eternal. But I'm sort of I just wonder if there's a cultural kind of a difference around the ma chismo of it and the kind of public strutting that it income.

But that's like a use of power, which I know has been eternal. But I'm sort of I just wonder if there's a cultural kind of a difference around the ma chismo of it and the kind of public strutting that it income.

I think they just these are people who didn't get a lot of attention in their youth and now they do because of money and power, and so it's very classic. Feels like a Genesee in song, like they got pick lasts at basketball and they're taking it out on the rest of us for not picking them sooner. I don't I don't know, you know, you could boil it down to something like that, but a lot of them Tech has become cool and nerds has become cool. It's sort of the revenge of the Nerds kind of scenario that has happened. And what comes with it is an enormous amount of money. Like that's really what gives them power, right, the money they have, not necessarily it they invented something, although that's also important. But you know, when people become really rich, they become more and more certain they're correct, and very few people push back against that because it's all in their interests to get money from those people. You know, everyone's on their payroll, and so that tends to be like that. The way I sort of characterize it is sort of a juvenilization of people who are adults men, adult men, typically white adult men, and so they juvenilize them by constantly licking them up and down, telling them they're smart, saying oh right again, sir, that kind of thing. And I think one of the things that also at the same time that manifests is that they feel like they're victims. If they're criticized or given any feedback, they find that to be an attack. Like you're seeing that right now with Elon and ADL. It's their fault, you know. Naysayers. Well, in this case, he's pulling into tropes around Jews or to blame, which is very dangerous. And yeah, they're naysayers and they're Miami. He's got to always have an enemy, you know what I mean, Because you couldn't possibly have made a mistake. You know, that's something that's very hard for them to accept.

I think they just these are people who didn't get a lot of attention in their youth and now they do because of money and power, and so it's very classic. Feels like a Genesee in song, like they got pick lasts at basketball and they're taking it out on the rest of us for not picking them sooner. I don't I don't know, you know, you could boil it down to something like that, but a lot of them Tech has become cool and nerds has become cool. It's sort of the revenge of the Nerds kind of scenario that has happened. And what comes with it is an enormous amount of money. Like that's really what gives them power, right, the money they have, not necessarily it they invented something, although that's also important. But you know, when people become really rich, they become more and more certain they're correct, and very few people push back against that because it's all in their interests to get money from those people. You know, everyone's on their payroll, and so that tends to be like that. The way I sort of characterize it is sort of a juvenilization of people who are adults men, adult men, typically white adult men, and so they juvenilize them by constantly licking them up and down, telling them they're smart, saying oh right again, sir, that kind of thing. And I think one of the things that also at the same time that manifests is that they feel like they're victims. If they're criticized or given any feedback, they find that to be an attack. Like you're seeing that right now with Elon and ADL. It's their fault, you know. Naysayers. Well, in this case, he's pulling into tropes around Jews or to blame, which is very dangerous. And yeah, they're naysayers and they're Miami. He's got to always have an enemy, you know what I mean, Because you couldn't possibly have made a mistake. You know, that's something that's very hard for them to accept.

So is that mindset that you're right and everyone else is wrong and you're a strutting rooster. Are those things necessary to be successful in Silicon Valley?

So is that mindset that you're right and everyone else is wrong and you're a strutting rooster. Are those things necessary to be successful in Silicon Valley?

No, not at all. There's a lot of very nice people, not at all, not even slightly. I can think of a dozen different people who are just lovely, Brian Chesky being one of them from Airbnb. Most of the adults are fine.

No, not at all. There's a lot of very nice people, not at all, not even slightly. I can think of a dozen different people who are just lovely, Brian Chesky being one of them from Airbnb. Most of the adults are fine.

You know.

You know.

Even Steve Jobs wasn't that much of an asshole, not compared to these guys, like you know what I mean, He could.

Even Steve Jobs wasn't that much of an asshole, not compared to these guys, like you know what I mean, He could.

Be eric and once he learned, he turned out to be a pretty good manager.

Be eric and once he learned, he turned out to be a pretty good manager.

Oh yeah, absolutely. And most people stayed for twenty years, right, they didn't leave the people who work there. He could be very difficult, but you know, he also if you go back and listen interview, he's very thoughtful. He's very I wouldn't say he was humble, but that's okay, that's fine. He was a game changer, but he wasn't just petty and juvenile. He definitely wasn't juvenile.

Oh yeah, absolutely. And most people stayed for twenty years, right, they didn't leave the people who work there. He could be very difficult, but you know, he also if you go back and listen interview, he's very thoughtful. He's very I wouldn't say he was humble, but that's okay, that's fine. He was a game changer, but he wasn't just petty and juvenile. He definitely wasn't juvenile.

He also had to kind of go through trial by fire, right, he got kicked out of the company he built.

He also had to kind of go through trial by fire, right, he got kicked out of the company he built.

Yeah, I just feel like he was an adult and sort.

Yeah, I just feel like he was an adult and sort.

Of learned from his lessons and then came back and acted.

Of learned from his lessons and then came back and acted.

I used the term adult like he was an adult, Like there's a lot of adults. Tim Cook as an adult. Read Hastings as an adult, read Hoffman as an adult, you know, meaning that they just they don't get into peaks if you say, hey, I have a problem with this, Like when I was doing an interview with Elon and I was he was, you know, just forcing his employees back into the office, into the factory. Before anybody knew anything about COVID. You could have an argument about whether it or not, but nobody knew, and he had a certainty I think he said something like they'll be like zero COVID deaths or whatever or something. He didn't know. I've read all the studies.

I used the term adult like he was an adult, Like there's a lot of adults. Tim Cook as an adult. Read Hastings as an adult, read Hoffman as an adult, you know, meaning that they just they don't get into peaks if you say, hey, I have a problem with this, Like when I was doing an interview with Elon and I was he was, you know, just forcing his employees back into the office, into the factory. Before anybody knew anything about COVID. You could have an argument about whether it or not, but nobody knew, and he had a certainty I think he said something like they'll be like zero COVID deaths or whatever or something. He didn't know. I've read all the studies.

I couldn't believe it. Completely ignorant everything you said.

I couldn't believe it. Completely ignorant everything you said.

Of course, but he read all the studies of deep ignorance. I was like, we don't know, we don't know. Let's assume lack of safety until we have better information, like why not? And you know, he threatened to walk off the show, like I'm going to leave. I'm like, fine, who does that? But like my two year old, My two year old doesn't even behave like that, right, It's like, who does that? That's an adult. I'm going to leave. Haha, you know whatever, it's childish and throw out of this ever. Right, It's just like, you know, we're someone who posts memes of boobs, like he always puts a boob thing up. I'm like, you're fifty two fucking years old, really, you know, and all the young men ooh.

Of course, but he read all the studies of deep ignorance. I was like, we don't know, we don't know. Let's assume lack of safety until we have better information, like why not? And you know, he threatened to walk off the show, like I'm going to leave. I'm like, fine, who does that? But like my two year old, My two year old doesn't even behave like that, right, It's like, who does that? That's an adult. I'm going to leave. Haha, you know whatever, it's childish and throw out of this ever. Right, It's just like, you know, we're someone who posts memes of boobs, like he always puts a boob thing up. I'm like, you're fifty two fucking years old, really, you know, and all the young men ooh.

Cool enough with the boobs.

Cool enough with the boobs.

Cool boobs, Like, oh, come on, really, you're fifty two. It moves in on pathetic.

Cool boobs, Like, oh, come on, really, you're fifty two. It moves in on pathetic.

And poop emojis. Don't forget the poop emojis.

And poop emojis. Don't forget the poop emojis.

Yeah, whatever, whatever, they're fifty two.

Yeah, whatever, whatever, they're fifty two.

It's an ecosystem too, right, isn't the venture capital community and the media part of the development of Bronus.

It's an ecosystem too, right, isn't the venture capital community and the media part of the development of Bronus.

Yeah, it depends. Like the venture capitalist I always thought them as enabling parents, like, oh, yes, you're a genius. Their interests for money, They wanted to make money. So anything they could say to get these guys to do what they wanted was what they would do. So more sugar, sure you won't get diabetes. Sure more I love you, You're the best. And of course they would turn on them in a second if they needed to. But yeah, I think the culture was very much we support our founders, and in fact it was just bad parenting this way I looked at it bad parenting.

Yeah, it depends. Like the venture capitalist I always thought them as enabling parents, like, oh, yes, you're a genius. Their interests for money, They wanted to make money. So anything they could say to get these guys to do what they wanted was what they would do. So more sugar, sure you won't get diabetes. Sure more I love you, You're the best. And of course they would turn on them in a second if they needed to. But yeah, I think the culture was very much we support our founders, and in fact it was just bad parenting this way I looked at it bad parenting.

And on the note of bad parenting, I'm going to take a quick break to hear from a sponsor, Karen, and then we'll come right back. I'm talking with Silicon Valley whisperer Kara Swisher about tech Bros. And Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg. Carol, let's talk about each of these guys individually. Zuck found Facebook famously in his Harvard dorm room in two thousand and four. So if you look back on his path to an IPO and three billion users and becoming the most vibrant global social media platform, the apollo of the social media landscape. Is there anything different about the path that he took to those various landing pads as an entrepreneur and then a businessman, You know, he was more driven.

And on the note of bad parenting, I'm going to take a quick break to hear from a sponsor, Karen, and then we'll come right back. I'm talking with Silicon Valley whisperer Kara Swisher about tech Bros. And Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg. Carol, let's talk about each of these guys individually. Zuck found Facebook famously in his Harvard dorm room in two thousand and four. So if you look back on his path to an IPO and three billion users and becoming the most vibrant global social media platform, the apollo of the social media landscape. Is there anything different about the path that he took to those various landing pads as an entrepreneur and then a businessman, You know, he was more driven.

He he reminded me of a great deal of Bill Gates, you know, very driven young man at all times and very serious at the time. If you may not recall, my Space was the cat's pajamas for everybody, right, everybody loved my sise. They were cool and handsome.

He he reminded me of a great deal of Bill Gates, you know, very driven young man at all times and very serious at the time. If you may not recall, my Space was the cat's pajamas for everybody, right, everybody loved my sise. They were cool and handsome.

Remember friends there.

Remember friends there.

Yeah, yeah, although that was never cool with my Space and Chris, a guy who ran it, and Tom were cool. They were cool. They were handsome, cool men, and so that was where everybody was. And Mark was just plugging away out.

Yeah, yeah, although that was never cool with my Space and Chris, a guy who ran it, and Tom were cool. They were cool. They were handsome, cool men, and so that was where everybody was. And Mark was just plugging away out.

And the Murdochs were smart for having remember bought into my Space.

And the Murdochs were smart for having remember bought into my Space.

They did, but they think they lost money at it. I believe they did.

They did, but they think they lost money at it. I believe they did.

They ultimately did. But remember at the.

They ultimately did. But remember at the.

Time, Yeah, the thing that makes me think they're not smart, They think they were stupid. But Mark was plugging away with the utilitarian thing that I he kept calling it the utility to me and you can imagine as a reporter, Oh, a utility. How fascinating, you know, And so I thought that was really smart actually, because he is just sort of I'm useful, I'm useful, I'm useful, And I used to call him a young fogie, like he was sort of an old person in a young person's body. And so he was quite serious and very like intent and aggressive a lot like young Bill Gates, I think, in a lot of ways.

Time, Yeah, the thing that makes me think they're not smart, They think they were stupid. But Mark was plugging away with the utilitarian thing that I he kept calling it the utility to me and you can imagine as a reporter, Oh, a utility. How fascinating, you know, And so I thought that was really smart actually, because he is just sort of I'm useful, I'm useful, I'm useful, And I used to call him a young fogie, like he was sort of an old person in a young person's body. And so he was quite serious and very like intent and aggressive a lot like young Bill Gates, I think, in a lot of ways.

And then he grows Facebook sort of in two ways, through this steamroller of an ad business, and then through acquisitions he buys Instagram, WhatsApp as time goes on, and then organic growth sort of stalls out on him and he has to actually try to do something with the company other than ride the wave, and the jury still out as to whether or not he's up to that, right.

And then he grows Facebook sort of in two ways, through this steamroller of an ad business, and then through acquisitions he buys Instagram, WhatsApp as time goes on, and then organic growth sort of stalls out on him and he has to actually try to do something with the company other than ride the wave, and the jury still out as to whether or not he's up to that, right.

Right, Yeah, I mean that happens with a lot of people like Microsoft. You remember they went into media. They had AMAZN, they had cable, they had all kinds of little alley ways they went down, none of which worked out except he sold software.

Right, Yeah, I mean that happens with a lot of people like Microsoft. You remember they went into media. They had AMAZN, they had cable, they had all kinds of little alley ways they went down, none of which worked out except he sold software.

General electric in a completely different industry.

General electric in a completely different industry.

Everybody does that, like, you know, even the Google guys, they don't like search business, even though it pays for everything, right, I think we'll do elevators up the streets of Sanford Cisco. What about a barge where we you know, we live or whatever. And now you know, these people making their town up in Solano County, you know, they get bored with what brought them there and they want to do something else. And I think all these things have a life cycle. Right, people will use Facebook until something else better comes alonger they don't like it anymore, they get bored with it. There's a limit to growth of it. And so you've got to be really prescient.

Everybody does that, like, you know, even the Google guys, they don't like search business, even though it pays for everything, right, I think we'll do elevators up the streets of Sanford Cisco. What about a barge where we you know, we live or whatever. And now you know, these people making their town up in Solano County, you know, they get bored with what brought them there and they want to do something else. And I think all these things have a life cycle. Right, people will use Facebook until something else better comes alonger they don't like it anymore, they get bored with it. There's a limit to growth of it. And so you've got to be really prescient.

You know.

You know.

The only company that really does this over and over again has been Apple. Right has continued to evolve relatively successfully, although they've had you know, if you don't remember paying I do. It was their social network. They tried a whole bunch of things that didn't.

The only company that really does this over and over again has been Apple. Right has continued to evolve relatively successfully, although they've had you know, if you don't remember paying I do. It was their social network. They tried a whole bunch of things that didn't.

Work, and they're starting to hit some plateaus.

Work, and they're starting to hit some plateaus.

Everyone says the proper Steve Jobs tied. It's over. It was not over forth ten times the amount when he was living.

Everyone says the proper Steve Jobs tied. It's over. It was not over forth ten times the amount when he was living.

And they brought in a very competent, boring, skilled manager and Tim Cook, not a.

And they brought in a very competent, boring, skilled manager and Tim Cook, not a.

Bro yeah, and grew it. Didn't just manage it, grew it. You know, the Internet's littered with companies that were popular and I've forgotten the names of a lot of them, right that were super popular and then weren't. And these are consumer products in many ways, and so that's normal and natural for people to move on from what they're doing. And so Facebook certainly has had the longest run of successful utility for people who use it, and smartly bought Instagram, which still remains really interesting. I think what's hard is, just like with Google, is everything else pales in comparison to their original product, and very few companies can change course in that regard.

Bro yeah, and grew it. Didn't just manage it, grew it. You know, the Internet's littered with companies that were popular and I've forgotten the names of a lot of them, right that were super popular and then weren't. And these are consumer products in many ways, and so that's normal and natural for people to move on from what they're doing. And so Facebook certainly has had the longest run of successful utility for people who use it, and smartly bought Instagram, which still remains really interesting. I think what's hard is, just like with Google, is everything else pales in comparison to their original product, and very few companies can change course in that regard.

So how do you see Mark Zuckerberg's management evolving over that time, from those heady days when Facebook was just a self generating piggybank to now when he's trying to find new businesses. He turns through Cheryl Sandberg after a period.

So how do you see Mark Zuckerberg's management evolving over that time, from those heady days when Facebook was just a self generating piggybank to now when he's trying to find new businesses. He turns through Cheryl Sandberg after a period.

It was a long time. I know he was ten fifteen years. That wasn't a short period. I think Mark has an admirable consistency of the managers there. They were there ten twelve years, which I think was unusual to stay.

It was a long time. I know he was ten fifteen years. That wasn't a short period. I think Mark has an admirable consistency of the managers there. They were there ten twelve years, which I think was unusual to stay.

I think the shift from Cheryl Sandberg to Nick Clegg is meaningful in terms of.

I think the shift from Cheryl Sandberg to Nick Clegg is meaningful in terms of.

Well that's just it's a late stage company, right, late stage company for internet companies which have a very short, much shorter life cycle. You know, Cheryl was critically important. Mark had a chaotic management style for a long time because he was young and never he's actually quite good as a manager.

Well that's just it's a late stage company, right, late stage company for internet companies which have a very short, much shorter life cycle. You know, Cheryl was critically important. Mark had a chaotic management style for a long time because he was young and never he's actually quite good as a manager.

And she was the adult in the room.

And she was the adult in the room.

Well I hate the expression, but yeah, sure, I think you know, she just knew how to run a business right with stuff he wasn't interested in. He was interested in the products. She was interested in business. And she had come from Google where she ran the most boring part of Google that did really well, which is this ad serving business. And she really should get a lot of credit for, you know, jacking the ad business as high as they did, and they had a great partnership for a very long time. And I just think it evolves over time and again as these people get rich, as they get wealthier, they get bored with what brong them. They don't like oh, or in the wire hanger business, I'd rather own a sports team, right, you know what I mean? Like nobody wants to be what they were, And so I think he evolved, and then of course he got hit with all the accusations around misinformation and Russian involvement and meddlesomeness and.

Well I hate the expression, but yeah, sure, I think you know, she just knew how to run a business right with stuff he wasn't interested in. He was interested in the products. She was interested in business. And she had come from Google where she ran the most boring part of Google that did really well, which is this ad serving business. And she really should get a lot of credit for, you know, jacking the ad business as high as they did, and they had a great partnership for a very long time. And I just think it evolves over time and again as these people get rich, as they get wealthier, they get bored with what brong them. They don't like oh, or in the wire hanger business, I'd rather own a sports team, right, you know what I mean? Like nobody wants to be what they were, And so I think he evolved, and then of course he got hit with all the accusations around misinformation and Russian involvement and meddlesomeness and.

For division and hate.

For division and hate.

And so what does he do. He renames the company going down another alley, which is the metaverse, which I think has proved rather expensive and quite premature.

And so what does he do. He renames the company going down another alley, which is the metaverse, which I think has proved rather expensive and quite premature.

Well, and also sort of imposed that on an entire company because it was his idea and he thought it was the way to get ys.

Well, and also sort of imposed that on an entire company because it was his idea and he thought it was the way to get ys.

Well, because he controls the company, he can't be fired.

Well, because he controls the company, he can't be fired.

Right, But this is also to me another sort of signal moment and whether or not young Mark can evolve into a good manager, like the embrace of meta as both an idea and a name and a direction for the company. Yeah, that he sort of jams down.

Right, But this is also to me another sort of signal moment and whether or not young Mark can evolve into a good manager, like the embrace of meta as both an idea and a name and a direction for the company. Yeah, that he sort of jams down.

He was trying to pretend he wasn't you know, No, No, I'm not Genghis Khan. I'm really Phil Jackson. I don't know whatever. He just wanted to change his name. He didn't want to be one thing, you know, ignore that over there. I'm over here doing this fabulous future stuff. He should have said AI really is what he should have said, but he said metaverse instead. And you know, with the time, we were like, no, this is so early, this is so wrong. But it's his party's he controls the company. So that's the way it is.

He was trying to pretend he wasn't you know, No, No, I'm not Genghis Khan. I'm really Phil Jackson. I don't know whatever. He just wanted to change his name. He didn't want to be one thing, you know, ignore that over there. I'm over here doing this fabulous future stuff. He should have said AI really is what he should have said, but he said metaverse instead. And you know, with the time, we were like, no, this is so early, this is so wrong. But it's his party's he controls the company. So that's the way it is.

So let's focus on Elon for a second. He launches PayPal famously with people.

So let's focus on Elon for a second. He launches PayPal famously with people.

He did not launch PayPal. No, that's not true.

He did not launch PayPal. No, that's not true.

Well, it was through a merger with X dot com.

Well, it was through a merger with X dot com.

And they were they were competitors. PayPal existed, they were rivals. They didn't like each other. That gang Elon's gang and the other gang.

And they were they were competitors. PayPal existed, they were rivals. They didn't like each other. That gang Elon's gang and the other gang.

Well he had X and the other I can't remember the other companies that merged form PayPal doesn't. We're probably bore people all they In.

Well he had X and the other I can't remember the other companies that merged form PayPal doesn't. We're probably bore people all they In.

Any case, they merged them because they were competitors. They didn't want to compete. That really was what they were doing this.

Any case, they merged them because they were competitors. They didn't want to compete. That really was what they were doing this.

So so PayPal comes in.

So so PayPal comes in.

Yeah, and they all got together and they had a lot of problems with each other, and Elon got you know, jammed out of PayPal in a lot of ways. And they all made money.

Yeah, and they all got together and they had a lot of problems with each other, and Elon got you know, jammed out of PayPal in a lot of ways. And they all made money.

But he gets some of the spoils though when they sell it to eBay, right.

But he gets some of the spoils though when they sell it to eBay, right.

I mean, that was a very lucky thing for all of them.

I mean, that was a very lucky thing for all of them.

Especially for Elon, and that it gave him a lot of cash that he uses to seed space x and to take a steak in Tesla all around the same period.

Especially for Elon, and that it gave him a lot of cash that he uses to seed space x and to take a steak in Tesla all around the same period.

It was unusual because all of them went often did stupid things. And Elon he really attracted my notice because he wasn't doing dumb things. I was like, huh, you know rockets, cars, Oh cool, you know what I mean. It was very ambitious and really interesting and AI. He was very early. He's one of the first people who ever talked about AI with me was Elon Musk, especially the dangers of AI, and so yeah, he was very serious, like another serious minded person who was doing substantive things rather than oh, I think I'll become a VC and funded dating service and you know whatever. They were all so stupid, you were like, oh, I can't talk to you. But Elon was always interesting well, and you know.

It was unusual because all of them went often did stupid things. And Elon he really attracted my notice because he wasn't doing dumb things. I was like, huh, you know rockets, cars, Oh cool, you know what I mean. It was very ambitious and really interesting and AI. He was very early. He's one of the first people who ever talked about AI with me was Elon Musk, especially the dangers of AI, and so yeah, he was very serious, like another serious minded person who was doing substantive things rather than oh, I think I'll become a VC and funded dating service and you know whatever. They were all so stupid, you were like, oh, I can't talk to you. But Elon was always interesting well, and you know.

He single handedly gets the US with the government's help, notably with massive government subsidies both at SpaceX and Tesla. In different got alone.

He single handedly gets the US with the government's help, notably with massive government subsidies both at SpaceX and Tesla. In different got alone.

It would have gone out of business without government help.

It would have gone out of business without government help.

And he got government contracts from NASA at SpaceX.

And he got government contracts from NASA at SpaceX.

Yeah, he has them. He continues to he has.

Yeah, he has them. He continues to he has.

Them, and it was sort of the foundation of his viability was getting those one one hundred percent.

Them, and it was sort of the foundation of his viability was getting those one one hundred percent.

He's the biggest government handout person I know then a good success.

He's the biggest government handout person I know then a good success.

Yay.

Yay.

He literally is the ad for why government's good.

He literally is the ad for why government's good.

It's corporate welfare. But it's good corporate welfare. You know. It created a world beating commercial space center, missile enterprise, and rocket enterprise, and a transformative EV company, So kudos to him. Those aren't small things, oh they're not. Makes him the world's wealthiest man. And then he decides, as I think he becomes increasingly erratic, he decides to buy Twitter for forty four billion dollars. Right, he did, and that's hardly the sign of someone who is a shrewd invest way.

It's corporate welfare. But it's good corporate welfare. You know. It created a world beating commercial space center, missile enterprise, and rocket enterprise, and a transformative EV company, So kudos to him. Those aren't small things, oh they're not. Makes him the world's wealthiest man. And then he decides, as I think he becomes increasingly erratic, he decides to buy Twitter for forty four billion dollars. Right, he did, and that's hardly the sign of someone who is a shrewd invest way.

Well we'll see, won't we Maybe he'll turn it around. It was never a very good business, like let's start with. It was a terrible business all of its life since it was founded, and it was badly managed, except for maybe Dick Costlow had a bit of a bright spot, but it never reached the potential. Everybody thought it was you, everyone thought it was Facebook.

Well we'll see, won't we Maybe he'll turn it around. It was never a very good business, like let's start with. It was a terrible business all of its life since it was founded, and it was badly managed, except for maybe Dick Costlow had a bit of a bright spot, but it never reached the potential. Everybody thought it was you, everyone thought it was Facebook.

It was never a Facebook in any scope.

It was never a Facebook in any scope.

Never made money for the users, never moved off of nineteen dots, was always at nineteen dollars, I recall. But it was badly managed.

Never made money for the users, never moved off of nineteen dots, was always at nineteen dollars, I recall. But it was badly managed.

So it wasn't necessarily a company he'd pay forty four billion dollars.

So it wasn't necessarily a company he'd pay forty four billion dollars.

No, I think it was. You know, it had a high there during the pandemic. I think you know, who knows why stock goes up or down, but you know it definitely if you zeroed it out over the history of it, you wouldn't have paid that. No, you wouldn't have paid for that. But I thought he would do a good job. I needed someone like him to come in and be king of the place, rather than do you.

No, I think it was. You know, it had a high there during the pandemic. I think you know, who knows why stock goes up or down, but you know it definitely if you zeroed it out over the history of it, you wouldn't have paid that. No, you wouldn't have paid for that. But I thought he would do a good job. I needed someone like him to come in and be king of the place, rather than do you.

Really think he'd do a good job when he first took it.

Really think he'd do a good job when he first took it.

I did because it was a goat rodeo over there, and it was all these CEOs that came in and out and all these feelings. It was the most emotional company you've ever deal with. You're sort of like, are you kidding me? With all your various and sundry dramas between each other, you know, all the founders and like this founder, you know, it was really exhausting to cover them. And again, it never met its potential of its influence. It had a lot of influence, but not a lot of business and very difficult issues around same thing polarization. They just didn't have the resources that Facebook did, and so you know, anyone could come in and do something.

I did because it was a goat rodeo over there, and it was all these CEOs that came in and out and all these feelings. It was the most emotional company you've ever deal with. You're sort of like, are you kidding me? With all your various and sundry dramas between each other, you know, all the founders and like this founder, you know, it was really exhausting to cover them. And again, it never met its potential of its influence. It had a lot of influence, but not a lot of business and very difficult issues around same thing polarization. They just didn't have the resources that Facebook did, and so you know, anyone could come in and do something.

With it if they were the right person, right, and.

With it if they were the right person, right, and.

He certainly had the means and the motivation. He loved the product. It obviously spoke to him in some deep way personally and emotionally, and so I thought.

He certainly had the means and the motivation. He loved the product. It obviously spoke to him in some deep way personally and emotionally, and so I thought.

I had no experience, and I do think managing a media company requires a certain comp.

I had no experience, and I do think managing a media company requires a certain comp.

Well, they try to pretend. I know, of course it is, but they pretend it is it's a communications company. I always thought it was a media company and thought that was the direction it should go in. And I was working with Twitter to actually monetize spaces and all this stuff. And then he comes in and I thought, okay, all right. We exchanged a bunch of emails about it. I was like, all right, you've got the money, you got the attention, you could bring in a smart media executive and really do something. Finally, like one person making a decision, because again, you know, I used to jokingly because I'm a lesbian, I can say that it was like a lesbian collective, Like no decisions were made ever, like everyone with feelings were hurt all the time. That's a cliche, Lesbian's not true, but it was really. There was a small handful of people who could have brought order to the place. Instead, it's his personality disorders writ large unfortunately.

Well, they try to pretend. I know, of course it is, but they pretend it is it's a communications company. I always thought it was a media company and thought that was the direction it should go in. And I was working with Twitter to actually monetize spaces and all this stuff. And then he comes in and I thought, okay, all right. We exchanged a bunch of emails about it. I was like, all right, you've got the money, you got the attention, you could bring in a smart media executive and really do something. Finally, like one person making a decision, because again, you know, I used to jokingly because I'm a lesbian, I can say that it was like a lesbian collective, Like no decisions were made ever, like everyone with feelings were hurt all the time. That's a cliche, Lesbian's not true, but it was really. There was a small handful of people who could have brought order to the place. Instead, it's his personality disorders writ large unfortunately.

Yeah. I mean I think maybe we part ways on that one because I thought in the very beginning he was the worst sort of person to take Twitter over because he lack the experiencing insight for that particular company. I hid.

Yeah. I mean I think maybe we part ways on that one because I thought in the very beginning he was the worst sort of person to take Twitter over because he lack the experiencing insight for that particular company. I hid.

I thought, yes, the COVID stuff was strange.

I thought, yes, the COVID stuff was strange.

The COVID denier. You know, I'm a free speech absolutist, but meanwhile he's crushing free speech within his own company, and he's going after people who criticize him.

The COVID denier. You know, I'm a free speech absolutist, but meanwhile he's crushing free speech within his own company, and he's going after people who criticize him.

Yeah, that's critical textures. Well, when has that ever happened?

Yeah, that's critical textures. Well, when has that ever happened?

Yeah, but it doesn't suggest you're the best guy to run a media company.

Yeah, but it doesn't suggest you're the best guy to run a media company.

All I was saying is one person making the decisions. I thought he would hire a very smart meet executive and get out of the way. But he didn't, because this is about him and his personality, right, his larger you know, emotional well being so to speak.

All I was saying is one person making the decisions. I thought he would hire a very smart meet executive and get out of the way. But he didn't, because this is about him and his personality, right, his larger you know, emotional well being so to speak.

Did all of that sort of erratic behavior with him, And you know, as he see investigates him for securities broad for saying the saud He's going to help him take Tesla private. That seems to have definitely all been built on smoke. Did any of that surprise you over the arc of time from when you first met him to who.

Did all of that sort of erratic behavior with him, And you know, as he see investigates him for securities broad for saying the saud He's going to help him take Tesla private. That seems to have definitely all been built on smoke. Did any of that surprise you over the arc of time from when you first met him to who.

He is now, Yes and no, like you saw it there. You know, he had a juvenile interest in memes and especially move memes, and I had teenage boys at the time. I'm like, oh, look it's another one, you know, so I had recognized the pattern. You know, he had a lot of juvenilia, like very much sort of like stupid jokes. You know. The COVID thing was the first time I was like, huh, that's weird. You know, that's weird. And then those stuff at the factories around racism and stuff like that started to pop up. You know, he wasn't that different from other ones. And actually he was somewhat I would say, delightful to talk to because he was very odd and interesting and he had you know, again, he was the first person who talked about the dangers of AI. This was a decade and a half ago, right, a long time ago, and nobody was talking about that. They were all talking about whatever the latest stupid trend was for the day, and he wasn't. He was very prescient about a lot of stuff, including cars, and space and everything else, and so you'd see flashes of it. I always say, like about ten percent of his personality was really distasteful, I guess, and the rest was really interesting. And with all the caveats you have about these egomaniacal, arrogant, narcissistic founders. And then something happened, something turned. It's like milk spoiled. Everything became about victimization. He felt under siege. I know it sounds dumb.

He is now, Yes and no, like you saw it there. You know, he had a juvenile interest in memes and especially move memes, and I had teenage boys at the time. I'm like, oh, look it's another one, you know, so I had recognized the pattern. You know, he had a lot of juvenilia, like very much sort of like stupid jokes. You know. The COVID thing was the first time I was like, huh, that's weird. You know, that's weird. And then those stuff at the factories around racism and stuff like that started to pop up. You know, he wasn't that different from other ones. And actually he was somewhat I would say, delightful to talk to because he was very odd and interesting and he had you know, again, he was the first person who talked about the dangers of AI. This was a decade and a half ago, right, a long time ago, and nobody was talking about that. They were all talking about whatever the latest stupid trend was for the day, and he wasn't. He was very prescient about a lot of stuff, including cars, and space and everything else, and so you'd see flashes of it. I always say, like about ten percent of his personality was really distasteful, I guess, and the rest was really interesting. And with all the caveats you have about these egomaniacal, arrogant, narcissistic founders. And then something happened, something turned. It's like milk spoiled. Everything became about victimization. He felt under siege. I know it sounds dumb.

Do you think that's a different turn than the turn Zuckerberg took.

Do you think that's a different turn than the turn Zuckerberg took.

I don't think Juckberg's changed personally, No, I don't. I think he's matured and he's developed as a man, I think. And in terms of elon he went backwards. He's like Benjamin Button, you know, except the jerk, the jerkish Benjamin Button. And so those parts of his personality as he got to be the richest man in the world, and especially with enablers or the wrong people around him, started to get really ugly. Just these people, all of whom are paid by him. And you know, this idea of all these fans like licking him up and down. It's affected his personality, you know, and including his family relationships with his now daughter. You know, if you talk to people around him, and they'll only talk off the record because they're terrified of getting off the gravy train. They are worried. They are worried about that. But you know, they all allow it to happen because he's the center. He's the son of a particular universe and very powerful. It's so classic, you know, it's classic with royalty. It's you know, this is not a news story.

I don't think Juckberg's changed personally, No, I don't. I think he's matured and he's developed as a man, I think. And in terms of elon he went backwards. He's like Benjamin Button, you know, except the jerk, the jerkish Benjamin Button. And so those parts of his personality as he got to be the richest man in the world, and especially with enablers or the wrong people around him, started to get really ugly. Just these people, all of whom are paid by him. And you know, this idea of all these fans like licking him up and down. It's affected his personality, you know, and including his family relationships with his now daughter. You know, if you talk to people around him, and they'll only talk off the record because they're terrified of getting off the gravy train. They are worried. They are worried about that. But you know, they all allow it to happen because he's the center. He's the son of a particular universe and very powerful. It's so classic, you know, it's classic with royalty. It's you know, this is not a news story.

It's how power functions.

It's how power functions.

Well some power, but like kings, they get a little nutty, you know what I mean, Like it just happens when nobody says, hey, just a second, and anyone who said hey, just a second, he's thrown out of the kingdom, myself included. You know whatever, I don't care. I have plenty of friends.

Well some power, but like kings, they get a little nutty, you know what I mean, Like it just happens when nobody says, hey, just a second, and anyone who said hey, just a second, he's thrown out of the kingdom, myself included. You know whatever, I don't care. I have plenty of friends.

I'm going to take another break care and then we'll come right back. I'm back with Kars Swisher. We're talking about tech bros and tech brodom. I asked you this earlier, and I want to come back to the degree to which Zuckerberg and Musque aren't that much different from their compatriots in Silicon Valley. I think of Jack Dorsey as sort of a junior mint version of this. You know, somehow they let him be the CEO of two companies simultaneously.

I'm going to take another break care and then we'll come right back. I'm back with Kars Swisher. We're talking about tech bros and tech brodom. I asked you this earlier, and I want to come back to the degree to which Zuckerberg and Musque aren't that much different from their compatriots in Silicon Valley. I think of Jack Dorsey as sort of a junior mint version of this. You know, somehow they let him be the CEO of two companies simultaneously.

They did.

They did.

It wasn't really good at being the CEO of one company, much less too, but he got away with it. You don't see many women or executives of color anywhere in the US being granted those sorts of opportunities and second chances. And then, you know, I do think of Tim Cook as a sort of the polar opposite of both of these guys. And I think there's a lesson in that about how you manage the trajectory of successful companies. That maybe you need these crazy geniuses who are completely self assured for a certain part of the company's trajectory, but then the grown ups have to come in and put their hands on the steering wheel and move it along. Do you agree with that or do you think that's too simple?

It wasn't really good at being the CEO of one company, much less too, but he got away with it. You don't see many women or executives of color anywhere in the US being granted those sorts of opportunities and second chances. And then, you know, I do think of Tim Cook as a sort of the polar opposite of both of these guys. And I think there's a lesson in that about how you manage the trajectory of successful companies. That maybe you need these crazy geniuses who are completely self assured for a certain part of the company's trajectory, but then the grown ups have to come in and put their hands on the steering wheel and move it along. Do you agree with that or do you think that's too simple?

As I do think it's too similar, because I think Tim was there from the beginning of the recovery of Apple, right, So it wasn't like he just was brought in to deal with difficult Steve just Sue Jobs was a great manager, right, you know what I mean? Like, and so was Jeff Bezos, lots of mistakes made by both of them, and.

As I do think it's too similar, because I think Tim was there from the beginning of the recovery of Apple, right, So it wasn't like he just was brought in to deal with difficult Steve just Sue Jobs was a great manager, right, you know what I mean? Like, and so was Jeff Bezos, lots of mistakes made by both of them, and.

In fact, Steve jobs knew Tim Cook was somebody he needed to have there must.

In fact, Steve jobs knew Tim Cook was somebody he needed to have there must.

So yeah, there were a lot of choices at that company, but he picked the one who I think, you know, typically, I remember when he died, everyone was like, oh, not this guy, this boring guy, this guy, this guy, And I was like, I don't know, I feel like he's been running what's been important to that company, creativity. There's a lot of creative people there. So this myth of the one god who can solve everything, I think is not a new and front. You remember Leiahkca only he could do it. It's sort of part of the corporate mental well again, but in that case, yes, right until no speaking to someone who had really distasteful opinions about Jewish people, et cetera. Think about that today. I just think Twitter was around for a lot of these people. Yeah.

So yeah, there were a lot of choices at that company, but he picked the one who I think, you know, typically, I remember when he died, everyone was like, oh, not this guy, this boring guy, this guy, this guy, And I was like, I don't know, I feel like he's been running what's been important to that company, creativity. There's a lot of creative people there. So this myth of the one god who can solve everything, I think is not a new and front. You remember Leiahkca only he could do it. It's sort of part of the corporate mental well again, but in that case, yes, right until no speaking to someone who had really distasteful opinions about Jewish people, et cetera. Think about that today. I just think Twitter was around for a lot of these people. Yeah.

Yeah, there would have been reputations in flames much earlier.

Yeah, there would have been reputations in flames much earlier.

Yeah maybe, but now it doesn't matter. You can be shameless, you know, and I think Donald Trump introduced that you can be shameless and you actually do better.

Yeah maybe, but now it doesn't matter. You can be shameless, you know, and I think Donald Trump introduced that you can be shameless and you actually do better.

And it's celebrated. In fact, in certain cases.

And it's celebrated. In fact, in certain cases.

Yeah, yeah, it's cool. I always love when they all do this fight the man. I'm like, you are the fucking man, Like you know what i mean, Like, that's my favorite. I'm like, I'm sorry, but you know, revolutions in Rome, the people who helped overthrow the Republic were some of its nobles, right, the Cracktree brothers. I think that's their names.

Yeah, yeah, it's cool. I always love when they all do this fight the man. I'm like, you are the fucking man, Like you know what i mean, Like, that's my favorite. I'm like, I'm sorry, but you know, revolutions in Rome, the people who helped overthrow the Republic were some of its nobles, right, the Cracktree brothers. I think that's their names.

You know.

You know.

That often happens, you know, or Donald Trump. I'm with you, people of Goal Mining Country. I'm like, are you kidding me? You live in a golden palace in New York City and Manhattan. But that's okay. It works for people, right, I'm your friend. And so you have to create this very pet Barnum like structure around you where you have to overstate you're already myriad of accomplishments in order to engender more love and more attention and everything else. And one of the things I like about Mark is I don't think, except for his kickboxing, which is fine, you know, he doesn't really seek attention. I think he's kind of proud of it. I guess I don't feel irritated by that, And I'm not particularly irritated by Jeff Bezos putting up chest shots of himself. You look good, Jeff, Okay, you should be happy with just that you look good, But I'm okay. I'm like, okay, he's proud of his nice physique now because he used to be kind of wimpy looking, and those are fine. But Elon needs attention every day, so I has to do you know, another stunt that's even crazier. You feel like you're in the middle of network, the movie network. Right, What am I going to do today? Oh, let's attack the Jews. Oh today, trans people. Let's not forget I have a trans child, and so it's even more heinous to do that. Today, Let's attack you know, Paul Pelosi saying he's part of a gay love triangle with no proof whatsoever, and too bad if people get hurt. Or today it's you know, Biden's fault. Today it's reporter's fault. Like whoever like or say something crazy and everybody pays attention to you. It's really sad when you think about it, because there are accomplishments here, real accomplishments.

That often happens, you know, or Donald Trump. I'm with you, people of Goal Mining Country. I'm like, are you kidding me? You live in a golden palace in New York City and Manhattan. But that's okay. It works for people, right, I'm your friend. And so you have to create this very pet Barnum like structure around you where you have to overstate you're already myriad of accomplishments in order to engender more love and more attention and everything else. And one of the things I like about Mark is I don't think, except for his kickboxing, which is fine, you know, he doesn't really seek attention. I think he's kind of proud of it. I guess I don't feel irritated by that, And I'm not particularly irritated by Jeff Bezos putting up chest shots of himself. You look good, Jeff, Okay, you should be happy with just that you look good, But I'm okay. I'm like, okay, he's proud of his nice physique now because he used to be kind of wimpy looking, and those are fine. But Elon needs attention every day, so I has to do you know, another stunt that's even crazier. You feel like you're in the middle of network, the movie network. Right, What am I going to do today? Oh, let's attack the Jews. Oh today, trans people. Let's not forget I have a trans child, and so it's even more heinous to do that. Today, Let's attack you know, Paul Pelosi saying he's part of a gay love triangle with no proof whatsoever, and too bad if people get hurt. Or today it's you know, Biden's fault. Today it's reporter's fault. Like whoever like or say something crazy and everybody pays attention to you. It's really sad when you think about it, because there are accomplishments here, real accomplishments.

World changing accomplishments are both of their sides, but.

World changing accomplishments are both of their sides, but.

They're not as big as they think they are, but they're big. Like they're big, but they're not that big.

They're not as big as they think they are, but they're big. Like they're big, but they're not that big.

Elon is thirteen years older than Zuckerberg, yet he's far more of a juvenile delinquent in my humble estimation, and it sort of surprised me when Zuckerberg took the bait recently. I did too.

Elon is thirteen years older than Zuckerberg, yet he's far more of a juvenile delinquent in my humble estimation, and it sort of surprised me when Zuckerberg took the bait recently. I did too.

I did too.

I did too.

I'll go, I'll do a case match with you. We can fight one another.

I'll go, I'll do a case match with you. We can fight one another.

I think he's really enthusiastic about it. I do think he really loves it. It's given him, you know, just.

I think he's really enthusiastic about it. I do think he really loves it. It's given him, you know, just.

Like the pickleball.

Like the pickleball.

It's like pickleball. I have friends who've now become really pickleball fanatics, and you're like, calm the fuck down. It's just a game. But they love it. It changed their lives, you know.

It's like pickleball. I have friends who've now become really pickleball fanatics, and you're like, calm the fuck down. It's just a game. But they love it. It changed their lives, you know.

Yeah, yeah, But there's a little difference again, Let's go play pickleball on Friday night as to let's beat the hell out of each other in a cage. I think there's sort of a qualitative.

Yeah, yeah, But there's a little difference again, Let's go play pickleball on Friday night as to let's beat the hell out of each other in a cage. I think there's sort of a qualitative.

It's something look he feels, but I don't look at you know what.

It's something look he feels, but I don't look at you know what.

It is not as sport. I think the difference between not as sports.

It is not as sport. I think the difference between not as sports.

I'd say the difference between them is parenting. I know, I know, I've come back to it. But his parents are very nice. I would not say that of Elon's parents. I think he had a very troubled childhood. I think a lot of that's going to come out in this book by Walter Isaacson that said, not everyone who has troubled childhoods turns out to be such an asshole. Right, You don't have to become an asshole if you have a troubled childhood. But I do think there is a difference in upbringing with those two in a lot of ways.

I'd say the difference between them is parenting. I know, I know, I've come back to it. But his parents are very nice. I would not say that of Elon's parents. I think he had a very troubled childhood. I think a lot of that's going to come out in this book by Walter Isaacson that said, not everyone who has troubled childhoods turns out to be such an asshole. Right, You don't have to become an asshole if you have a troubled childhood. But I do think there is a difference in upbringing with those two in a lot of ways.

But I do want to come act for one last second on the cage match because it's stupid. It to me is it's stupid, but it's also emblematic. It is emblematic of the sort of excess and mitchismo and juvenile delinquency that pervades Silicon Valley despite its successes. In rich it was so ridiculous, etc.

But I do want to come act for one last second on the cage match because it's stupid. It to me is it's stupid, but it's also emblematic. It is emblematic of the sort of excess and mitchismo and juvenile delinquency that pervades Silicon Valley despite its successes. In rich it was so ridiculous, etc.

I actually wrote Mark, I said, please, look, I know you think we haven't gotten along for a long time before because he thinks I'm too critical of the company, which okay, whatever, And we had that disastrous interview where he's sweat and stuff. So I can see why he avoids me, but don't do this. You have daughters, you seem to be a pretty decent parent and a very decent husband. What are you doing? Like, I'm glad you like your sport, but this is ridiculous, fucking spectacle. And if you want to raise money, just give part of your giant, ridiculous, obscene fortune to someone like you. Don't need to do this.

I actually wrote Mark, I said, please, look, I know you think we haven't gotten along for a long time before because he thinks I'm too critical of the company, which okay, whatever, And we had that disastrous interview where he's sweat and stuff. So I can see why he avoids me, but don't do this. You have daughters, you seem to be a pretty decent parent and a very decent husband. What are you doing? Like, I'm glad you like your sport, but this is ridiculous, fucking spectacle. And if you want to raise money, just give part of your giant, ridiculous, obscene fortune to someone like you. Don't need to do this.

And so you know, so did he send you a selfie of his bicyc No, he didn't any response, He didn't respond.

And so you know, so did he send you a selfie of his bicyc No, he didn't any response, He didn't respond.

But can you imagine Gates and Jobs fighting. Let's have a fight, Like No, they just what they did as they did an interview with me and Walt Moosburg. That was great, that was amazing. That was adult, right, you know.

But can you imagine Gates and Jobs fighting. Let's have a fight, Like No, they just what they did as they did an interview with me and Walt Moosburg. That was great, that was amazing. That was adult, right, you know.

They had their problem because it was coming together.

They had their problem because it was coming together.

That's right. It was epic. They put aside their differences and realized they realized they were together as icons of the modern computer age. Together, they really were the two just like John Adams and Tupman's Jefferson.

That's right. It was epic. They put aside their differences and realized they realized they were together as icons of the modern computer age. Together, they really were the two just like John Adams and Tupman's Jefferson.

They belonged to I call that interview. Jobs pointed out that Microsoft gave one hundred million dollars to Apple when it was flailing, and he posticates.

They belonged to I call that interview. Jobs pointed out that Microsoft gave one hundred million dollars to Apple when it was flailing, and he posticates.

A bit too, But it was fine. It was fine, but at the end it was he understood because he's an adult, and so is Bill Gates, you know, and could just imagine them fighting.

A bit too, But it was fine. It was fine, but at the end it was he understood because he's an adult, and so is Bill Gates, you know, and could just imagine them fighting.

Oh, come back. I can't imagine Zuckerberg and Musco on a stage together. And this gets back to my early point. I can see Hewlett and Packard on a stage together. I could see Harvey Firestone and Thomas Edison on a stage together. Are I can't imagine Zuckerberg and Musco on a stage together. And in fact, all I'm thinking about is that they're jumping around on pogo sticks, challenging each other to a cage.