Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm Tim O'Brien. Before we get started, a note to you wonderful listeners. This will be Crash Course's final episode. Keeping the show afloat while juggling a million other things prove to be a challenge. I'm grateful you've tuned in, so back to it. Today's Crash Course Taylor Swift versus the World. This is hardly an original thought. Taylor Swift embodies a rare cultural presence and moment, and she's everywhere. She inhabits her presence amid an unusual amount of glare with an unusual amount of grace. But now, and this is what feels oddly fresh to me, a lot of weirdness has attached itself to her. She's encouraged voters to register without offering specifics about the twenty twenty four presidential election, but Fox and several of its commentators keep warning her to stay out of politics. Others in Fox's ranks say she's a military embed the federal government is using for psychological warfare against who and for what you might ask. In her romance with Kansas City Chief star Travis Kelcey it's fake. The same crowd says it's part of a different conspiracy, one crafted to get Joe Biden elected or boost football ratings. Loved simply can't be the reason they're together. I guess I don't know. Isn't Taylor Swift a singer? She's also a shrewd businesswoman, a conscientious manager of the people who work for and with her, responsive and responsible to her fans, and has kept her wits about her when everyone else is losing theirs. Joining me today to examine all of this is Emma Gray. Emma co writes a culture substack called rich Text, and she's the author of A Girl's Guide to Joining the Resistance. She's also a columnist with MSNBC. Greeting z Emma, and welcome back to the show.

Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm Tim O'Brien. Before we get started, a note to you wonderful listeners. This will be Crash Course's final episode. Keeping the show afloat while juggling a million other things prove to be a challenge. I'm grateful you've tuned in, so back to it. Today's Crash Course Taylor Swift versus the World. This is hardly an original thought. Taylor Swift embodies a rare cultural presence and moment, and she's everywhere. She inhabits her presence amid an unusual amount of glare with an unusual amount of grace. But now, and this is what feels oddly fresh to me, a lot of weirdness has attached itself to her. She's encouraged voters to register without offering specifics about the twenty twenty four presidential election, but Fox and several of its commentators keep warning her to stay out of politics. Others in Fox's ranks say she's a military embed the federal government is using for psychological warfare against who and for what you might ask. In her romance with Kansas City Chief star Travis Kelcey it's fake. The same crowd says it's part of a different conspiracy, one crafted to get Joe Biden elected or boost football ratings. Loved simply can't be the reason they're together. I guess I don't know. Isn't Taylor Swift a singer? She's also a shrewd businesswoman, a conscientious manager of the people who work for and with her, responsive and responsible to her fans, and has kept her wits about her when everyone else is losing theirs. Joining me today to examine all of this is Emma Gray. Emma co writes a culture substack called rich Text, and she's the author of A Girl's Guide to Joining the Resistance. She's also a columnist with MSNBC. Greeting z Emma, and welcome back to the show.

I'm so excited to be back to talk about all of this Maga meltdown surrounding Taylor Swift. What a delight.

I'm so excited to be back to talk about all of this Maga meltdown surrounding Taylor Swift. What a delight.

Yeah. Well, the last time you joined, you schooled me about the meaning of Barbie the movie, and we talked about all of the ins and outs of Barbie, and so when I wanted to get into this topic, I thought who will be my guide on this little journey. You automatically popped up in my mind.

Yeah. Well, the last time you joined, you schooled me about the meaning of Barbie the movie, and we talked about all of the ins and outs of Barbie, and so when I wanted to get into this topic, I thought who will be my guide on this little journey. You automatically popped up in my mind.

I'm honored.

I'm honored.

You know.

You know.

There's so many ways into a Taylor Swift discussion, but let's start oddly, perhaps with football. The Super Bowl was played last weekend. I'm not sure what the viewer tallies were, but last year one hundred and fifteen million people watched it. So it's one of these centerpiece events in American culture, for better or for worse. And this thought has emerged that this thirty four year old star is an intruder, and that she doesn't deserve the attention she gets when her boyfriend's football team plays, and that it distracts people from the game, and it distracts people, I guess, from the meaning of life, even though I think she's lending in disputable brand value to the NFL and the Kansas City Chiefs and her boyfriend. What do you make of this when you see this sort of miasma of weird observations about their romance and football come into our purview?

There's so many ways into a Taylor Swift discussion, but let's start oddly, perhaps with football. The Super Bowl was played last weekend. I'm not sure what the viewer tallies were, but last year one hundred and fifteen million people watched it. So it's one of these centerpiece events in American culture, for better or for worse. And this thought has emerged that this thirty four year old star is an intruder, and that she doesn't deserve the attention she gets when her boyfriend's football team plays, and that it distracts people from the game, and it distracts people, I guess, from the meaning of life, even though I think she's lending in disputable brand value to the NFL and the Kansas City Chiefs and her boyfriend. What do you make of this when you see this sort of miasma of weird observations about their romance and football come into our purview?

It is such a rich tapestry to dig into, honestly, and this is something that I've been mulling over for the last couple months watching, as you said, the profound weirdness of right wing white men turning against the NFL and a white football player who is dating a white former country singer. And I think what we're seeing, in part is this profound discomfort with girls and women having any sort of centrality to culture. Like I think that there are a segment of conservative men who see football as their purview, as the place that they are king, and they are profoundly threatened by the fact that this woman is getting any attention in that venue that they perceived to be theirs, which first of all, is ridiculous on its face, because there have always been women football fans, so it has never been only a venue for men. But I think that there has been that cultural perception, and Taylor's presence and the fact that she is bringing more people to these football games feels like evidence that like, it's not theirs anymore. And I think that there is this desire to create a wider justification for why that's happening. And it can't just be that Taylor Swift is dating Travis Kelcey and wants to show up to support her boyfriend as he has showed up to her air tour and they want to have a cute little public romance that is mutually beneficial, probably both personally and professionally for both of them. It has to be that Joe Biden and the Pentagon are conspiring, you know, in some sort of deep state operation, right, And at the end of the day, I think it all comes back to the fact that there are a lot of men who are really uncomfortable and have a lot of anxiety about the giralification of popular culture.

It is such a rich tapestry to dig into, honestly, and this is something that I've been mulling over for the last couple months watching, as you said, the profound weirdness of right wing white men turning against the NFL and a white football player who is dating a white former country singer. And I think what we're seeing, in part is this profound discomfort with girls and women having any sort of centrality to culture. Like I think that there are a segment of conservative men who see football as their purview, as the place that they are king, and they are profoundly threatened by the fact that this woman is getting any attention in that venue that they perceived to be theirs, which first of all, is ridiculous on its face, because there have always been women football fans, so it has never been only a venue for men. But I think that there has been that cultural perception, and Taylor's presence and the fact that she is bringing more people to these football games feels like evidence that like, it's not theirs anymore. And I think that there is this desire to create a wider justification for why that's happening. And it can't just be that Taylor Swift is dating Travis Kelcey and wants to show up to support her boyfriend as he has showed up to her air tour and they want to have a cute little public romance that is mutually beneficial, probably both personally and professionally for both of them. It has to be that Joe Biden and the Pentagon are conspiring, you know, in some sort of deep state operation, right, And at the end of the day, I think it all comes back to the fact that there are a lot of men who are really uncomfortable and have a lot of anxiety about the giralification of popular culture.

The same men, by the way, who are very content to look at rows of cheerleaders. Female cheerleaders stand on the field and dance and do other things, and they don't call it a distraction. They actually think of it as a fundamental part of the game. This is the same group of men, largely men who can't wait for a variety of bonkers ads that air during the Super Bowl and take time away from the game itself. This is the same group of men who watch and can't wait for halftime shows that often also feature female stars, and yet a woman in a red jacket cheering for her boyfriend in a skybox who on average, I think the New York Times did a breakdown. I think in most games that Taylor Swift has attended, the average amount of actual airtime she gets is in the neighborhood of twenty five seconds.

The same men, by the way, who are very content to look at rows of cheerleaders. Female cheerleaders stand on the field and dance and do other things, and they don't call it a distraction. They actually think of it as a fundamental part of the game. This is the same group of men, largely men who can't wait for a variety of bonkers ads that air during the Super Bowl and take time away from the game itself. This is the same group of men who watch and can't wait for halftime shows that often also feature female stars, and yet a woman in a red jacket cheering for her boyfriend in a skybox who on average, I think the New York Times did a breakdown. I think in most games that Taylor Swift has attended, the average amount of actual airtime she gets is in the neighborhood of twenty five seconds.

Well it's too much, tim Okay, frankly, it's too much.

Well it's too much, tim Okay, frankly, it's too much.

And it's like just you know, bury your head in your nachos and look away from the screen, right, or shoot some beer on your buddy on the couch, not a bunch light.

And it's like just you know, bury your head in your nachos and look away from the screen, right, or shoot some beer on your buddy on the couch, not a bunch light.

Very threatened by blud bud lights.

Very threatened by blud bud lights.

Well that's bad. Bud Light's bad. But you know, the interesting like as a case study, so beyond these things that I think are obviously ridiculous and speak more to men's insecurity about their own identities and their openness to being in the presence of empowered and powerful women. That feels like really obvious to me as sort of ten pole things for men to consider here rather than Taylor Swift. But there have always been political and social controversies that have wrapped themselves around football. Aaron Rodgers, at the time he was the Green Bay Packers quarterback, didn't want to get veaxed in the middle of a pandemic and the COVID lockdowns, And he knew he was making a statement. He himself was politicizing the sport. And then famously, when a number of different black NFL players took knees during the National Anthem to protest violence against blacks by the police, that was considered a no no. No one really felt that Aaron Rodgers should quiet down, but other forms of protests were deemed not part of the game, you know. And then in the kind of the back lot of the football industry, there's been a lot of misogyny. There's been problems with players assaulting women, sexism in the NFL offices. And so I think this is such an interesting tableat and then suddenly you have Taylor Swift table and she's become a pinata. Do you think that's just going to be a permanent feature of football discussions? Is its collision with the popular culture?

Well that's bad. Bud Light's bad. But you know, the interesting like as a case study, so beyond these things that I think are obviously ridiculous and speak more to men's insecurity about their own identities and their openness to being in the presence of empowered and powerful women. That feels like really obvious to me as sort of ten pole things for men to consider here rather than Taylor Swift. But there have always been political and social controversies that have wrapped themselves around football. Aaron Rodgers, at the time he was the Green Bay Packers quarterback, didn't want to get veaxed in the middle of a pandemic and the COVID lockdowns, And he knew he was making a statement. He himself was politicizing the sport. And then famously, when a number of different black NFL players took knees during the National Anthem to protest violence against blacks by the police, that was considered a no no. No one really felt that Aaron Rodgers should quiet down, but other forms of protests were deemed not part of the game, you know. And then in the kind of the back lot of the football industry, there's been a lot of misogyny. There's been problems with players assaulting women, sexism in the NFL offices. And so I think this is such an interesting tableat and then suddenly you have Taylor Swift table and she's become a pinata. Do you think that's just going to be a permanent feature of football discussions? Is its collision with the popular culture?

I think so, And I think that it makes a lot of sense to me. I think we have this fantasy in certain segments of American life that we can just take politics out of something, when politics is inherently embedded in everything in our lives, and certainly in football, which is seen as a fundamentally American sport which makes a ton of money for a ton of people, which creates celebrity which interacts with celebrity. I mean, this is a hotbed for political and cultural analysis and the way that they intersect with each other. And so I think, yeah, as you said, Taylor Swift is kind of just the latest iteration of this. And because she has become this I think stratospherically famous individual in a way that few people do. Her presence, there is just rife for commentary on both sides, for adoration from certain segments of the population and for vilification from other segments. And I think just a lot is projected onto her. And it is interesting to me the way that certain segments of the population, you know, for example, the right are very selective about their desire for celebrity to intrude into the NFL. As you said, Aaron Rodgers being anti vax that was great, But Colin Kaepernick, you've gone too far.

I think so, And I think that it makes a lot of sense to me. I think we have this fantasy in certain segments of American life that we can just take politics out of something, when politics is inherently embedded in everything in our lives, and certainly in football, which is seen as a fundamentally American sport which makes a ton of money for a ton of people, which creates celebrity which interacts with celebrity. I mean, this is a hotbed for political and cultural analysis and the way that they intersect with each other. And so I think, yeah, as you said, Taylor Swift is kind of just the latest iteration of this. And because she has become this I think stratospherically famous individual in a way that few people do. Her presence, there is just rife for commentary on both sides, for adoration from certain segments of the population and for vilification from other segments. And I think just a lot is projected onto her. And it is interesting to me the way that certain segments of the population, you know, for example, the right are very selective about their desire for celebrity to intrude into the NFL. As you said, Aaron Rodgers being anti vax that was great, But Colin Kaepernick, you've gone too far.

Or the camera panning to Matthew McConaughey in the stands, well, that's Patriots alone. You know, like no one says, hey, you're distracting me from the game right now? Why is that movie star on my screen for a nanosecond.

Or the camera panning to Matthew McConaughey in the stands, well, that's Patriots alone. You know, like no one says, hey, you're distracting me from the game right now? Why is that movie star on my screen for a nanosecond.

There is just also it's so distinctly embedded in our ideas of gender to consider a fully covered up woman who's merely there to be a distraction, Like it gives me shades of a very juvenile reading of girls at school can't show their shoulders because they will distract the boys, Like there is this fundamental kind of underestimation of men built into that, Like, sir, your cognitive skills are being strained by four seconds of a blonde lady in the stands, Like unpack that for a minute.

There is just also it's so distinctly embedded in our ideas of gender to consider a fully covered up woman who's merely there to be a distraction, Like it gives me shades of a very juvenile reading of girls at school can't show their shoulders because they will distract the boys, Like there is this fundamental kind of underestimation of men built into that, Like, sir, your cognitive skills are being strained by four seconds of a blonde lady in the stands, Like unpack that for a minute.

Dropping f bombs sometimes too, by the way up there in the stands. You know. Another factor in this I think is very interesting is that the football player capital T capital F capital P occupies this place in American men's imaginations about what being masculine entails and living large in the world and playing a sport in which you're going up against other very big men and trying to beat them on the battlefield of football. You have someone who is a primo example of that specimen in Travis Kelsey, and he's very comfortable being with an in charge woman who makes much more money than he does and has much more celebrity traction than he does, and he's happy with that. And I sort of that is a challenge to men as well. Travis Kelcey in this combination, I think is also as threatening to you know, the male viewership as Taylor Swift is.

Dropping f bombs sometimes too, by the way up there in the stands. You know. Another factor in this I think is very interesting is that the football player capital T capital F capital P occupies this place in American men's imaginations about what being masculine entails and living large in the world and playing a sport in which you're going up against other very big men and trying to beat them on the battlefield of football. You have someone who is a primo example of that specimen in Travis Kelsey, and he's very comfortable being with an in charge woman who makes much more money than he does and has much more celebrity traction than he does, and he's happy with that. And I sort of that is a challenge to men as well. Travis Kelcey in this combination, I think is also as threatening to you know, the male viewership as Taylor Swift is.

Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think there is something that feels unsettling to some men to see this guy who in so many ways embodies the platonic ideal of American masculinity, and yet that is confounded to an extent by his relationship. And yeah, his comfort with being with someone who is more famous and you know, having a billion dollar tour. Travis Kelsey is about as famous as a football player can get, but he is not Taylor Swift. That is simply a different level. And yeah, I think that there are a lot of male fantasies, specifically white male fantasies, that are contained within the game of football, and any deviation from that feels threatening.

Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think there is something that feels unsettling to some men to see this guy who in so many ways embodies the platonic ideal of American masculinity, and yet that is confounded to an extent by his relationship. And yeah, his comfort with being with someone who is more famous and you know, having a billion dollar tour. Travis Kelsey is about as famous as a football player can get, but he is not Taylor Swift. That is simply a different level. And yeah, I think that there are a lot of male fantasies, specifically white male fantasies, that are contained within the game of football, and any deviation from that feels threatening.

If it's a deviation that doesn't encompass the already acceptable. So it's okay to have a male star on the camera but not a female star. It's okay to have female cheerleaders but not successful female musicians.

If it's a deviation that doesn't encompass the already acceptable. So it's okay to have a male star on the camera but not a female star. It's okay to have female cheerleaders but not successful female musicians.

Because they're not overshadowy, they're just objects for male entertainment.

Because they're not overshadowy, they're just objects for male entertainment.

Tim see the thing?

Tim see the thing?

Oh, now I get it. See, that's why I needed you here today. You know. In a similar vein, there was this recent New York Times essay about Taylor Swift's sexual identity, and in a piece that I regarded as poorly put together and I don't like taking other journalists to task on the air, but it was an empirically dubious piece in terms of I think the goal of the piece was to say, Taylor Swift is a closeted gay woman and it would be healthy for her to come out of the closet because it would be empowering for other members of the gay community. That's fine, I think as a goal, But then I think, if you're going to prove your case, you really have to assemble the argument. And getting back to our theme of the weird conspiracy theories that attached themselves to Taylor Swift, I felt the writer of that particular piece was sort of finding coded meanings in the titles of albums or things that Taylor Swift had set on stage and sort of plucking cues out of somewhat thin air to make a case for her and for her own needs and her own argument. And again that feels thematically of a fit of why do these kinds of theories attach themselves to her?

Oh, now I get it. See, that's why I needed you here today. You know. In a similar vein, there was this recent New York Times essay about Taylor Swift's sexual identity, and in a piece that I regarded as poorly put together and I don't like taking other journalists to task on the air, but it was an empirically dubious piece in terms of I think the goal of the piece was to say, Taylor Swift is a closeted gay woman and it would be healthy for her to come out of the closet because it would be empowering for other members of the gay community. That's fine, I think as a goal, But then I think, if you're going to prove your case, you really have to assemble the argument. And getting back to our theme of the weird conspiracy theories that attached themselves to Taylor Swift, I felt the writer of that particular piece was sort of finding coded meanings in the titles of albums or things that Taylor Swift had set on stage and sort of plucking cues out of somewhat thin air to make a case for her and for her own needs and her own argument. And again that feels thematically of a fit of why do these kinds of theories attach themselves to her?

Yeah, I mean I think that part of it is that she is someone who is known to include Easter eggs in her lyrics and her videos. She plays with that that is part of the fun. In my understanding of being a hardcore swiftye is to try to glean greater understanding about this artist that you admire through all of these things. And I feel like what that piece misunderstood is that there is a difference between speculating about Taylor's sexuality in the New York Times versus being on TikTok as a fan and allowing yourself a queer reading of her persona or her lyrics like that seems fun and healthy and fair and the other.

Yeah, I mean I think that part of it is that she is someone who is known to include Easter eggs in her lyrics and her videos. She plays with that that is part of the fun. In my understanding of being a hardcore swiftye is to try to glean greater understanding about this artist that you admire through all of these things. And I feel like what that piece misunderstood is that there is a difference between speculating about Taylor's sexuality in the New York Times versus being on TikTok as a fan and allowing yourself a queer reading of her persona or her lyrics like that seems fun and healthy and fair and the other.

There's one of the powerful things music does exactly right, exactly It allows people to feel seen right way right.

There's one of the powerful things music does exactly right, exactly It allows people to feel seen right way right.

And I'm sure for her some of that is intentional, But to put it in an op ed in the New York Times, to me said, we as a public are entitled to you, Taylor Swift, disclosing every bit of your sexual identity to us. And I don't think that's something that we can ask of our celebrities, and.

And I'm sure for her some of that is intentional, But to put it in an op ed in the New York Times, to me said, we as a public are entitled to you, Taylor Swift, disclosing every bit of your sexual identity to us. And I don't think that's something that we can ask of our celebrities, and.

In fact, you owe us that right. You not only should do this, but you owe it to society because with fame comes power, and with power comes responsibility. Therefore, out yourself, right out yourself. Damn it. Let's take a quick break and hear from a sponsor and that I want to come back with the other odd intersection Taylor Swift and her intersection with American politics. After this break, I'm back with emmcgray, who's helping me sort out some of the madness surrounding Taylor Swift. Emma, I'm going to quote one of the more lunar members of the Fox talk show The Five, Jeanine Piro, on a recent episode, speaking of Taylor Swift, she said, why would someone as popular as she is alienate your fans, the Swifties. So don't get involved. Don't get involved in politics. We don't want to see you there. So others in MAGA media have said similar things about Again, you know, in the prior section we're talking about her intrusion onto the American pastime of football. This is now warning her that she shouldn't intrude on the civic virtue of participatory politics. What do you make of that.

In fact, you owe us that right. You not only should do this, but you owe it to society because with fame comes power, and with power comes responsibility. Therefore, out yourself, right out yourself. Damn it. Let's take a quick break and hear from a sponsor and that I want to come back with the other odd intersection Taylor Swift and her intersection with American politics. After this break, I'm back with emmcgray, who's helping me sort out some of the madness surrounding Taylor Swift. Emma, I'm going to quote one of the more lunar members of the Fox talk show The Five, Jeanine Piro, on a recent episode, speaking of Taylor Swift, she said, why would someone as popular as she is alienate your fans, the Swifties. So don't get involved. Don't get involved in politics. We don't want to see you there. So others in MAGA media have said similar things about Again, you know, in the prior section we're talking about her intrusion onto the American pastime of football. This is now warning her that she shouldn't intrude on the civic virtue of participatory politics. What do you make of that.

It really is giving strong shades of shut up and singing to the Dixie Chicks after they made a statement about the Iraq War, Like, I think that there is this desire, certainly on the right, to look at cultural figures who are inconvenient for their narratives and say, stay in your lane. But Donald Trump is a celebrity. He was a celebrity before he was elected president. Ronald Reagan was right, like, this is the party that has actively elected presidents who are boosted by their celebrity. And so again we're seeing that very selective feeling about celebrity. If you are going to disagree with the maga politics, you need to shut up. You need to stay in your land. Don't go to football games, don't ask people to vote, don't endorse anyone, don't state to political opinion. But if you are going to boost the conspiracy theory that COVID vaccines are evil, then great, use that platform. We need you.

It really is giving strong shades of shut up and singing to the Dixie Chicks after they made a statement about the Iraq War, Like, I think that there is this desire, certainly on the right, to look at cultural figures who are inconvenient for their narratives and say, stay in your lane. But Donald Trump is a celebrity. He was a celebrity before he was elected president. Ronald Reagan was right, like, this is the party that has actively elected presidents who are boosted by their celebrity. And so again we're seeing that very selective feeling about celebrity. If you are going to disagree with the maga politics, you need to shut up. You need to stay in your land. Don't go to football games, don't ask people to vote, don't endorse anyone, don't state to political opinion. But if you are going to boost the conspiracy theory that COVID vaccines are evil, then great, use that platform. We need you.

You know, you just got me thinking about a very interesting thing that I hadn't been thinking about before we been talking, which is what kind of celebrity has allowed to intersect with politics and what kind isn't. And I'm thinking back to the twenty sixteen presidential election, and I was in a green room at NBC and I was speaking with a political consultant about what the chances of Trump winning the election were and I was dubious, totally wrong, And he said, you really can't underestimate the power of celebrity. He said, if you looked at the Arnold Schwarzenegger candidacy for governor in California and Jesse Ventura ex wrestlers run for the governorship in Minnesota. In both of those races, he said, towards the very end of the election, both of them enjoyed these huge spikes in voter attention, voter allegiance, and then raw voting because of their celebrity. And he said, you know that could just accrue to Donald Trump in this election too. And of course the maga wright knows it's one of his secret powers now and Fox knows that about him. And I think when they see it in others, it's come out in Fox's opposition to more charismatic democratic politicians. They identify them early. I think of AOC as Bill example of that. Within minutes of being elected, she became kind of a target for beware you know she's part of the woke left, progressive la la la la la, and I think that's what's insenting this kind of fear of Taylor Swift's entry into the political landscape.

You know, you just got me thinking about a very interesting thing that I hadn't been thinking about before we been talking, which is what kind of celebrity has allowed to intersect with politics and what kind isn't. And I'm thinking back to the twenty sixteen presidential election, and I was in a green room at NBC and I was speaking with a political consultant about what the chances of Trump winning the election were and I was dubious, totally wrong, And he said, you really can't underestimate the power of celebrity. He said, if you looked at the Arnold Schwarzenegger candidacy for governor in California and Jesse Ventura ex wrestlers run for the governorship in Minnesota. In both of those races, he said, towards the very end of the election, both of them enjoyed these huge spikes in voter attention, voter allegiance, and then raw voting because of their celebrity. And he said, you know that could just accrue to Donald Trump in this election too. And of course the maga wright knows it's one of his secret powers now and Fox knows that about him. And I think when they see it in others, it's come out in Fox's opposition to more charismatic democratic politicians. They identify them early. I think of AOC as Bill example of that. Within minutes of being elected, she became kind of a target for beware you know she's part of the woke left, progressive la la la la la, and I think that's what's insenting this kind of fear of Taylor Swift's entry into the political landscape.

That's such a good point, that's such a good way to put it. And I think that's exactly right because you look at, for example, something that really set off the MAGA right, which is that Taylor Swift encouraged her fans on Instagram to register to vote. She did not say registered to vote as a Democrat. She simply said registered to vote, and that was deeply threatening to segments of the right. And what I think that tells us a couple of things. One that the Republican Party is deeply invested in as few people participating in our political system as possible. And second that, yeah, that they perceive Taylor Swift's celebrity and platform to be a fundamental threat to their political ends. And I think that, yeah, that's exactly that's exactly it.

That's such a good point, that's such a good way to put it. And I think that's exactly right because you look at, for example, something that really set off the MAGA right, which is that Taylor Swift encouraged her fans on Instagram to register to vote. She did not say registered to vote as a Democrat. She simply said registered to vote, and that was deeply threatening to segments of the right. And what I think that tells us a couple of things. One that the Republican Party is deeply invested in as few people participating in our political system as possible. And second that, yeah, that they perceive Taylor Swift's celebrity and platform to be a fundamental threat to their political ends. And I think that, yeah, that's exactly that's exactly it.

I'm glad you brought up that Instagram post because there's interesting data to be had around that. She doesn't have just any old Instagram platform. She has nearly two hundred and eighty million followers on Instagram. It's kind of a mind boggling number, and after she encouraged people to register vote dot Org at the time said I think within a relatively short period of time, thirty five thousand people registered to vote, you know, in response to her entreaties, which, by the way, has always been in every history class anyone takes, and in any of the mythology or literature surrounding the American journey and the American experiences, that voting is for everyone. Everyone should register. It's good civic duty to do so. It's not about partisanship or ideology. It's just about participating in the life of your country. And this woman suggests, yeah, everybody should do that, and Maga world freaks out exactly, you know, I think, beyond her celebrity though they know, she's also has positioned herself publicly around certain issues. In twenty eighteen, she posted something to social media that I want to quote at length because I think it shows where her head is at and what she's willing to do with her celebrity. She said, I have and always will cast my vote based on which candidate will protect and fight for the human rights. I believe we all deserve in this country. I believe in the fight for LGBTQ rights and that any form of discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender is wrong. I believe that the systemic racism we still see in this country towards people of color is terrifying, sickening, and prevalent. It's very clear where she stands. She's got a lot of courage, she's articulate, and there's probably in what I just read at least a dozen words that would make Maga lands head explode. Yes, she had to expect some of this to come at her. How do you think she's comported herself amid all these things that cling to her.

I'm glad you brought up that Instagram post because there's interesting data to be had around that. She doesn't have just any old Instagram platform. She has nearly two hundred and eighty million followers on Instagram. It's kind of a mind boggling number, and after she encouraged people to register vote dot Org at the time said I think within a relatively short period of time, thirty five thousand people registered to vote, you know, in response to her entreaties, which, by the way, has always been in every history class anyone takes, and in any of the mythology or literature surrounding the American journey and the American experiences, that voting is for everyone. Everyone should register. It's good civic duty to do so. It's not about partisanship or ideology. It's just about participating in the life of your country. And this woman suggests, yeah, everybody should do that, and Maga world freaks out exactly, you know, I think, beyond her celebrity though they know, she's also has positioned herself publicly around certain issues. In twenty eighteen, she posted something to social media that I want to quote at length because I think it shows where her head is at and what she's willing to do with her celebrity. She said, I have and always will cast my vote based on which candidate will protect and fight for the human rights. I believe we all deserve in this country. I believe in the fight for LGBTQ rights and that any form of discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender is wrong. I believe that the systemic racism we still see in this country towards people of color is terrifying, sickening, and prevalent. It's very clear where she stands. She's got a lot of courage, she's articulate, and there's probably in what I just read at least a dozen words that would make Maga lands head explode. Yes, she had to expect some of this to come at her. How do you think she's comported herself amid all these things that cling to her.

I think she's handled it remarkably well. And you know, she has a great team surrounding her, who I think probably I'm assuming that probably helps kind of insulate from some of it. But we know from everything that she's said and her documentary like that her deciding to for the first time be publicly political was not a decision taken lightly, and it was certainly something that a lot of people around her thought she shouldn't do. And early in her career there were a lot of questions swirling around her. You know, this white blonde woman who comes from the country world. Is she conservative? Is she getting all of these liberal fans to come and support her? And she actually is opposed to the human rights that feel core to a lot of her fan base. And she answered the question with this statement, and you know, with her subsequent endorsement of Biden in twenty twenty. And I think that, yeah, as you said, she has a huge platform, and she has been able to maintain and grow her celebrity in the wake of being open about her political stances. And I think that that is probably also what makes segments of the right very scared of her. She has not crumbled, right, She has not received the backlash that has affected her bottom line in the way that, for example, the Dixie Chicks did.

I think she's handled it remarkably well. And you know, she has a great team surrounding her, who I think probably I'm assuming that probably helps kind of insulate from some of it. But we know from everything that she's said and her documentary like that her deciding to for the first time be publicly political was not a decision taken lightly, and it was certainly something that a lot of people around her thought she shouldn't do. And early in her career there were a lot of questions swirling around her. You know, this white blonde woman who comes from the country world. Is she conservative? Is she getting all of these liberal fans to come and support her? And she actually is opposed to the human rights that feel core to a lot of her fan base. And she answered the question with this statement, and you know, with her subsequent endorsement of Biden in twenty twenty. And I think that, yeah, as you said, she has a huge platform, and she has been able to maintain and grow her celebrity in the wake of being open about her political stances. And I think that that is probably also what makes segments of the right very scared of her. She has not crumbled, right, She has not received the backlash that has affected her bottom line in the way that, for example, the Dixie Chicks did.

That is completely true, and I think we're going to get it in the back end of the show. We'll get into the kind of financial power and independence she's established for herself that other artists haven't enjoyed when they've spoken out. When you mentioned before about she's also scaring the right. One of my favorite recent examples of the kind of imaginative and conspiratorial lengths her critics will go to to sort of build up. Pair noy about her was when when Jesse Waters, another Fox bro, recently speculated that she's a government plant waging a form of psychological warfare and that her Era's concert tour. I'm sorry, it's so hard for me to even just state this without laughing, because it's sort of fun and funny, but it's like, don't people have better things to do? Anyway? He warned that her Era's concert tour was a phenomenon because the Defense Department was backing it. Have you found evid evidence in your own reporting that the Defense Department is using her as an embed to wage psychological warfare on the American people? And if so, tell us now, Emma, I have not.

That is completely true, and I think we're going to get it in the back end of the show. We'll get into the kind of financial power and independence she's established for herself that other artists haven't enjoyed when they've spoken out. When you mentioned before about she's also scaring the right. One of my favorite recent examples of the kind of imaginative and conspiratorial lengths her critics will go to to sort of build up. Pair noy about her was when when Jesse Waters, another Fox bro, recently speculated that she's a government plant waging a form of psychological warfare and that her Era's concert tour. I'm sorry, it's so hard for me to even just state this without laughing, because it's sort of fun and funny, but it's like, don't people have better things to do? Anyway? He warned that her Era's concert tour was a phenomenon because the Defense Department was backing it. Have you found evid evidence in your own reporting that the Defense Department is using her as an embed to wage psychological warfare on the American people? And if so, tell us now, Emma, I have not.

It just truly cracks me up, this idea that that would be the more likely explanation than just that like a lot of women and girls are interested to see an artist reflect their emotional experiences, Like couldn't be that has to be like the Department of Defense. It's just it's beyond wakado. And yet it is kind of chilling that there are a lot of people who are so invested in these ideas that they are willing to buy into them and take them. Seriously. I keep thinking about Charlie Kirk going on a rant about her in which he said all the swifties want is a swift abortion.

It just truly cracks me up, this idea that that would be the more likely explanation than just that like a lot of women and girls are interested to see an artist reflect their emotional experiences, Like couldn't be that has to be like the Department of Defense. It's just it's beyond wakado. And yet it is kind of chilling that there are a lot of people who are so invested in these ideas that they are willing to buy into them and take them. Seriously. I keep thinking about Charlie Kirk going on a rant about her in which he said all the swifties want is a swift abortion.

It's like, yeah, yeah, Charlie Kirk.

It's like, yeah, yeah, Charlie Kirk.

Okay again there is just it's like these men and some of these women cannot grasp a world in which young people might just want to see their lived experiences reflected back at them or want to participate in the government of the country that they live in. Like that is too hard to believe. So it has to be a conspiracy. It can't just be that these ideas or this person is genuinely popular.

Okay again there is just it's like these men and some of these women cannot grasp a world in which young people might just want to see their lived experiences reflected back at them or want to participate in the government of the country that they live in. Like that is too hard to believe. So it has to be a conspiracy. It can't just be that these ideas or this person is genuinely popular.

And confident can destructive. Policy oriented political parties don't freak out about talented and influential pop stars, but cults do, yes. And I think one of the other collisions you're seeing here is that I think the Republican Party, particularly the MAGA wing, I think there's a lot of traditional conservatives who are policy oriented, think the best for the country, want to have public dialogues about the economy in the future. But that's certainly not where the Maga wing of the party rights. And they've actually gotten their strongest traction as a cultural force, not a policy force, but to appeal to people's emotions, to their fears, to a variety of other desires, which, of course artists always explore. You know, every great artist is exploring people's emotional landscape and their needs. And so that's another reason why at this particular point in time, I think an influential pop star is threatening to a party that has tethered its future to culture, war and emotion.

And confident can destructive. Policy oriented political parties don't freak out about talented and influential pop stars, but cults do, yes. And I think one of the other collisions you're seeing here is that I think the Republican Party, particularly the MAGA wing, I think there's a lot of traditional conservatives who are policy oriented, think the best for the country, want to have public dialogues about the economy in the future. But that's certainly not where the Maga wing of the party rights. And they've actually gotten their strongest traction as a cultural force, not a policy force, but to appeal to people's emotions, to their fears, to a variety of other desires, which, of course artists always explore. You know, every great artist is exploring people's emotional landscape and their needs. And so that's another reason why at this particular point in time, I think an influential pop star is threatening to a party that has tethered its future to culture, war and emotion.

That's such a good point. Yeah, Maga really just goes on vibes. They're worried. They're worried about the vibe shift not in their favor.

That's such a good point. Yeah, Maga really just goes on vibes. They're worried. They're worried about the vibe shift not in their favor.

Yeah, bad political vibes. On that note, I'm going to take another quick break to hear from a sponsor, and then we'll come back and we will stop talking about emotion, stop talking about conspiracies, and we will talk about the money. I'm back in having a great conversation with the great Emma Gray about the great Taylor Swift. Everyone's great, everyone's great. Today, I want to point out two things about Taylor Swift's Eras tour last year. First, I became a hero in my household by getting two tickets for my wife. And second, Taylor Swift became a billionaire through the Era's tour. By the way, my pal and partner in crime here Anamazerakus, has been to three Taylor Swift concerts. What is Taylor Me to you, Anna?

Yeah, bad political vibes. On that note, I'm going to take another quick break to hear from a sponsor, and then we'll come back and we will stop talking about emotion, stop talking about conspiracies, and we will talk about the money. I'm back in having a great conversation with the great Emma Gray about the great Taylor Swift. Everyone's great, everyone's great. Today, I want to point out two things about Taylor Swift's Eras tour last year. First, I became a hero in my household by getting two tickets for my wife. And second, Taylor Swift became a billionaire through the Era's tour. By the way, my pal and partner in crime here Anamazerakus, has been to three Taylor Swift concerts. What is Taylor Me to you, Anna?

I mean, I think that she's incredibly talented, but I also think, as Emma has brought up in this conversation, she is a strong independent woman who has built an incredibly strong business and that's threatening to a lot of people. And it's kind of interesting to watch how she has handled that and gone through the roller coaster of it from you know, really wanting people's approval to then also having like a song called shake It Off where she's like, whatever, I'm just going to live my life now. She keeps going through that.

I mean, I think that she's incredibly talented, but I also think, as Emma has brought up in this conversation, she is a strong independent woman who has built an incredibly strong business and that's threatening to a lot of people. And it's kind of interesting to watch how she has handled that and gone through the roller coaster of it from you know, really wanting people's approval to then also having like a song called shake It Off where she's like, whatever, I'm just going to live my life now. She keeps going through that.

It's interesting, it's interesting, and it's a learning experience. And I think one of the things that's interesting about what's given her traction and sort of fortitude amidst all this is that she's a great business woman. That's just a really practical day in and day out level. There are so many highlights to talk about, you know. She just took her fourth award for Album of the Year at the Grammy. She's the first artist to ever do that. She's the highest grossing female touring act, the most streamed woman on Spotify and Apple Music, the first person to become a billionaire with a fortune primarily derived from music, and she's sold two hundred million records, and on and on and on. What do you make of her as a business force in that context?

It's interesting, it's interesting, and it's a learning experience. And I think one of the things that's interesting about what's given her traction and sort of fortitude amidst all this is that she's a great business woman. That's just a really practical day in and day out level. There are so many highlights to talk about, you know. She just took her fourth award for Album of the Year at the Grammy. She's the first artist to ever do that. She's the highest grossing female touring act, the most streamed woman on Spotify and Apple Music, the first person to become a billionaire with a fortune primarily derived from music, and she's sold two hundred million records, and on and on and on. What do you make of her as a business force in that context?

Nowah, I mean, I'm impressed. It's very impressive to be a creative who is able to build that like that is just using a whole different brain. And you have to be very savvy in order to build a brand that sustains that long that you are tapping and growing into this audience who you are so endeared to that they will shell out a lot of money to see The Era's Tour. I have friends who have seen like three different stops on The Era's tour because it is just a thrill every single time. And so she is both a savvy businesswoman and also creating a product that people want to come back for, which I think is key to having a sustainable business when it comes to music or any creative work.

Nowah, I mean, I'm impressed. It's very impressive to be a creative who is able to build that like that is just using a whole different brain. And you have to be very savvy in order to build a brand that sustains that long that you are tapping and growing into this audience who you are so endeared to that they will shell out a lot of money to see The Era's Tour. I have friends who have seen like three different stops on The Era's tour because it is just a thrill every single time. And so she is both a savvy businesswoman and also creating a product that people want to come back for, which I think is key to having a sustainable business when it comes to music or any creative work.

Yeah, I'm going to quote Billboard Magazine here Taylor Swift's quote seismic impact on the music industry over the past seventeen years since her debut isn't limited to her unparalleled commercial success, but also encompasses her influence on everything from artists' rights to smashing the traditional album release model to changing the conversation about songwrights and ownership. You know. Famously, she pulled her catalog from Spotify for three years twenty fourteen to twenty seventeen in order to get a fair financial deal from that platform. She fought Apple for better royalty payments. But this always seemed like the boss moved to me. After her master recordings for her first six albums and her former label were sold to another company in twenty nineteen, she re recorded the songs that were part of the sale so she could regain ownership of her own masters. And I just thought, as well, like that was it's so in charge and business savvy, and I thought it was really impressive.

Yeah, I'm going to quote Billboard Magazine here Taylor Swift's quote seismic impact on the music industry over the past seventeen years since her debut isn't limited to her unparalleled commercial success, but also encompasses her influence on everything from artists' rights to smashing the traditional album release model to changing the conversation about songwrights and ownership. You know. Famously, she pulled her catalog from Spotify for three years twenty fourteen to twenty seventeen in order to get a fair financial deal from that platform. She fought Apple for better royalty payments. But this always seemed like the boss moved to me. After her master recordings for her first six albums and her former label were sold to another company in twenty nineteen, she re recorded the songs that were part of the sale so she could regain ownership of her own masters. And I just thought, as well, like that was it's so in charge and business savvy, and I thought it was really impressive.

It's so impressive. The tailor's version universe of albums is incredible. It's also allowed her to revisit material and introduce newer fans to that back catalog to bring I think more of her adult sensibility into that music. And yeah, I think she is showcasing a model for artists and creatives that says you deserve to own your work, you do not have to be a slave to these traditional gatekeepers. And I think that it puts this question into the ether, which is, maybe these systems are broken and maybe we should all be revisiting them. And she has the financial and cultural power to make a move as an individual and change a whole system, which virtually no one else, very few other people have that power.

It's so impressive. The tailor's version universe of albums is incredible. It's also allowed her to revisit material and introduce newer fans to that back catalog to bring I think more of her adult sensibility into that music. And yeah, I think she is showcasing a model for artists and creatives that says you deserve to own your work, you do not have to be a slave to these traditional gatekeepers. And I think that it puts this question into the ether, which is, maybe these systems are broken and maybe we should all be revisiting them. And she has the financial and cultural power to make a move as an individual and change a whole system, which virtually no one else, very few other people have that power.

And it doesn't stop there. She leverages very shrewdly her own image and brand on social media, around album drops, around who she is, what her life entails, and then she has a whole merch line attached to all this clothing, phone cases, jewelry, et cetera, et cetera. I guess I know the answer is, but does it surprise you that she's also able to excel in all of these different facets? And what do you think explains it?

And it doesn't stop there. She leverages very shrewdly her own image and brand on social media, around album drops, around who she is, what her life entails, and then she has a whole merch line attached to all this clothing, phone cases, jewelry, et cetera, et cetera. I guess I know the answer is, but does it surprise you that she's also able to excel in all of these different facets? And what do you think explains it?

Oh gosh, I don't exactly know what explains it, but I am not surprised, just in the sense that she's been in this business for a long time. She has stayed quite true to herself and her own evolution, and I think she has been an eager learner throughout all of it, and obviously we can't pretend that it's just her like she has found collaborators who understand her and want to work with her to build out this brand. I am like less familiar admittedly with some of her business practices, but as an observer and admirer of her, I find it all to be pretty impressive. And also I wonder how shocked we would be by it if she wasn't an artist, like in a pretty woman's.

Oh gosh, I don't exactly know what explains it, but I am not surprised, just in the sense that she's been in this business for a long time. She has stayed quite true to herself and her own evolution, and I think she has been an eager learner throughout all of it, and obviously we can't pretend that it's just her like she has found collaborators who understand her and want to work with her to build out this brand. I am like less familiar admittedly with some of her business practices, but as an observer and admirer of her, I find it all to be pretty impressive. And also I wonder how shocked we would be by it if she wasn't an artist, like in a pretty woman's.

Body, right, you know. I also think that just artists historically have not been good negotiators for their own financial wellbeing.

Body, right, you know. I also think that just artists historically have not been good negotiators for their own financial wellbeing.

I mean, yeah, a totally different skill set. So it is very impressive in that sense.

I mean, yeah, a totally different skill set. So it is very impressive in that sense.

And then she uses it all responsibly and isn't going crazy and is hanging in there. Let me ask you one last question, you know, and watching the arc of Taylor's journey, and maybe specifically over the last several months, with the conspiracy theories floating around her, what have you learned about what she represents in the world that you didn't know before this most recent installment of Taylor Mania.

And then she uses it all responsibly and isn't going crazy and is hanging in there. Let me ask you one last question, you know, and watching the arc of Taylor's journey, and maybe specifically over the last several months, with the conspiracy theories floating around her, what have you learned about what she represents in the world that you didn't know before this most recent installment of Taylor Mania.

That's a great question. I think I learned that a lot of people that I assumed and wouldn't be paying attention to Taylor Swift really are like. That is what the MAGA backlash to an extent has taught me. That she lives rent free in a lot of people's heads, and a woman who is operating in all of these different realms and has what seems to be total control and a grasp on her own platform and power is very scary to a lot of people. And that's certainly not to lift Taylor up as some perfect figure who is not deserving ever of criticism. I don't think that that's true, but I do think that for certain segments of the culture, a lot of derangement is projected onto her, and she is kind of treated as this blank space where maga fantasies and dreams and fears can be played out upon TDS.

That's a great question. I think I learned that a lot of people that I assumed and wouldn't be paying attention to Taylor Swift really are like. That is what the MAGA backlash to an extent has taught me. That she lives rent free in a lot of people's heads, and a woman who is operating in all of these different realms and has what seems to be total control and a grasp on her own platform and power is very scary to a lot of people. And that's certainly not to lift Taylor up as some perfect figure who is not deserving ever of criticism. I don't think that that's true, but I do think that for certain segments of the culture, a lot of derangement is projected onto her, and she is kind of treated as this blank space where maga fantasies and dreams and fears can be played out upon TDS.

Taylor Derangement syndrome coin new We've got a new term here. We've run out of time. Emma, I really appreciate you coming on today.

Taylor Derangement syndrome coin new We've got a new term here. We've run out of time. Emma, I really appreciate you coming on today.

Thank you so much for having me. It's always a pleasure.

Thank you so much for having me. It's always a pleasure.

Emma Gray is the co host of a podcast that recaps dating reality shows, Love to See It, co writes a culture substact called rich Text, and is the author of A Girl's Guide to joining the Resistance. She's also a columnist with MSNBC and you can find her on Twitter at Emma Lady Rose. Here at Crash Course, we believed the collisions can be messy, impressive, challenging, surprising, and always instructive. But all good things must come to an end, so we're bringing down the curtain on Crash Course. This episode, like all of our episodes, was produced by the indispensable and wildly talented Anna Masarakus. She has been a stellar collaborator and I will miss co creating this show with her. Our supervising producer has been Magnus Hendrickson, and we've had editing help from Sagebauman, Jeff Grocot, Mike Nizza, and Christine Vanden Bilar. Blake Maples has done all of our sound engineering, and he's capable of doing superhero things with sound. Our original theme song was composed by Luis Garra and I'm Tim O'Brien. Thanks for hanging out with Crash Course.

Emma Gray is the co host of a podcast that recaps dating reality shows, Love to See It, co writes a culture substact called rich Text, and is the author of A Girl's Guide to joining the Resistance. She's also a columnist with MSNBC and you can find her on Twitter at Emma Lady Rose. Here at Crash Course, we believed the collisions can be messy, impressive, challenging, surprising, and always instructive. But all good things must come to an end, so we're bringing down the curtain on Crash Course. This episode, like all of our episodes, was produced by the indispensable and wildly talented Anna Masarakus. She has been a stellar collaborator and I will miss co creating this show with her. Our supervising producer has been Magnus Hendrickson, and we've had editing help from Sagebauman, Jeff Grocot, Mike Nizza, and Christine Vanden Bilar. Blake Maples has done all of our sound engineering, and he's capable of doing superhero things with sound. Our original theme song was composed by Luis Garra and I'm Tim O'Brien. Thanks for hanging out with Crash Course.