Cool Zone Media.

Cool Zone Media.

Hello, and welcome back to cool people who did cool stuff. You're a weekly reminder that sometimes people beat people to death with clubs, but in a good way, like when those people had enslaved them. I'm your host, Margaro Kiljoy and my guest today is Sophie.

Hello, and welcome back to cool people who did cool stuff. You're a weekly reminder that sometimes people beat people to death with clubs, but in a good way, like when those people had enslaved them. I'm your host, Margaro Kiljoy and my guest today is Sophie.

Hi.

Hi.

Hi, Sophie, Hi, You ever beaten A Nope, I'm not gonna ask that.

Hi, Sophie, Hi, You ever beaten A Nope, I'm not gonna ask that.

Anderson and Truman are here. They say hello, Oh amazing. Yep. Everyone say hi to Anderson, Rentron Truman.

Anderson and Truman are here. They say hello, Oh amazing. Yep. Everyone say hi to Anderson, Rentron Truman.

Yeah, you better do it.

Yeah, you better do it.

They can't hear you say it louder.

They can't hear you say it louder.

Yeah. Also, people should say hi to Rory, our audio engineer. Hi, Rory, Hi Roy. And that's our guest Sophie, who's also our producer. And our theme musical was written for us byon Woman. And this is part two in a two parter about the Great Dismal Swamp Maroons, who were a multi century resisted project to the slave empire of the United States of America. When you pick like one topic and sort of deep dive and just realize even like everything ties into the fact that it's this like slave economy, just like every little piece of it, even the poor white people who end up siding with them. It still ties into the fact that it's a slave economy, Like it's just like such a overwhelming fact of American history.

Yeah. Also, people should say hi to Rory, our audio engineer. Hi, Rory, Hi Roy. And that's our guest Sophie, who's also our producer. And our theme musical was written for us byon Woman. And this is part two in a two parter about the Great Dismal Swamp Maroons, who were a multi century resisted project to the slave empire of the United States of America. When you pick like one topic and sort of deep dive and just realize even like everything ties into the fact that it's this like slave economy, just like every little piece of it, even the poor white people who end up siding with them. It still ties into the fact that it's a slave economy, Like it's just like such a overwhelming fact of American history.

A Marca sucks scay Mass country.

A Marca sucks scay Mass country.

Yeah, some good people here, you know. Yeah, So we just had Carrie's Rebellion. The Leveler Quaker Republic has fallen, and many of the people fled into the swamps, the Great Dismal Swamp. Not long after, in seventeen eleven, the tusc Aurora, which is that confederacy of three different tribes that folks have been working with who lived a bit further inland from the swamp, went to war against the colonies. Tensions were high between the two groups. They both had valid points. Indigenous people were accused of harboring runaway slaves, while settlers were you know, stealing Tuscarora land and sending out surveyors to map to put towns in where it wasn't theirs, and also just showing up and stealing people and selling them. So really again, just complicated thing, you know, just a complicated conflict that we certainly couldn't take signs and I can't do it and even pretend the Tuscarora people and their allies, including a bunch of African and mixed race Maroons, went to war. Oh, because you already even have even at this point, there's already some Maroons in those swamps. There's already people who just like I ran away, and a ton more of them are about to arrive. But like, so they went to war and they're basically their goal was to kidnap enough white landowners to exchange them back for their loved ones.

Yeah, some good people here, you know. Yeah, So we just had Carrie's Rebellion. The Leveler Quaker Republic has fallen, and many of the people fled into the swamps, the Great Dismal Swamp. Not long after, in seventeen eleven, the tusc Aurora, which is that confederacy of three different tribes that folks have been working with who lived a bit further inland from the swamp, went to war against the colonies. Tensions were high between the two groups. They both had valid points. Indigenous people were accused of harboring runaway slaves, while settlers were you know, stealing Tuscarora land and sending out surveyors to map to put towns in where it wasn't theirs, and also just showing up and stealing people and selling them. So really again, just complicated thing, you know, just a complicated conflict that we certainly couldn't take signs and I can't do it and even pretend the Tuscarora people and their allies, including a bunch of African and mixed race Maroons, went to war. Oh, because you already even have even at this point, there's already some Maroons in those swamps. There's already people who just like I ran away, and a ton more of them are about to arrive. But like, so they went to war and they're basically their goal was to kidnap enough white landowners to exchange them back for their loved ones.

Cool.

Cool.

Again, no historical or current parallels at all. And the first day they went through and killed like one hundred and thirty white people, mostly white land owning men, and kidnapped a ton of people because they were trying to do this hostage exchange thing. The governor tried to raise up a militia, but the albumarl of white people were like, no, we're We're good. The tusker are. They're not mad at us, they're mad at the other white people. They're mad at the rich people and the like landowners, and shit, we're not going to fuck with them. Besides, we're mostly Quakers, so we're not doing it. So it was a South Carolina militia alongside allied indigenous fighters who put down the rebellion. Really yeah, they had to bring them in from elsewhere. And then also, like, I mean, the other thing about the history of the destruction of indigenous peoples in the United States is or the place that became the United States is using dividing conquer tactics and getting one group to fight against the other group.

Again, no historical or current parallels at all. And the first day they went through and killed like one hundred and thirty white people, mostly white land owning men, and kidnapped a ton of people because they were trying to do this hostage exchange thing. The governor tried to raise up a militia, but the albumarl of white people were like, no, we're We're good. The tusker are. They're not mad at us, they're mad at the other white people. They're mad at the rich people and the like landowners, and shit, we're not going to fuck with them. Besides, we're mostly Quakers, so we're not doing it. So it was a South Carolina militia alongside allied indigenous fighters who put down the rebellion. Really yeah, they had to bring them in from elsewhere. And then also, like, I mean, the other thing about the history of the destruction of indigenous peoples in the United States is or the place that became the United States is using dividing conquer tactics and getting one group to fight against the other group.

You know.

You know.

Yeah, but it wasn't all like crush rebellion. The two sides sued for peace and they had a truce and they agreed to release all their hostages. So the Tuscarora released all their hostages. The English were like, why would we do what we said we were going to do, and they didn't. Instead, they sold their hostages into slavery, fucking clown asque country, Fucking.

Yeah, but it wasn't all like crush rebellion. The two sides sued for peace and they had a truce and they agreed to release all their hostages. So the Tuscarora released all their hostages. The English were like, why would we do what we said we were going to do, and they didn't. Instead, they sold their hostages into slavery, fucking clown asque country, Fucking.

A stupid place we live in.

A stupid place we live in.

So the Tuscara went back to war. They were like, all right, well, we had a truce and you didn't do it. So they attacked more of the slave labor camps. But unfortunately the divide and conqueror was like real close to home. They told the chief of the northern Tuscarora, it was kind of divided into two groups, told them that he would rule over the southern Tuscarora too if he would join the English in the war, and that happened. So hundreds of southern Tuscarora and their allies laid up in a fort for a last stand, and a ton of them were slaughtered or sold into slavery. At this point, the majority of the Tuscarora went north and joined the Iroquois Confederacy, which is that massive democra project that is way way more interesting in radical and democratic than the US has ever been or will be. But a whole lot of the Tuscarora people, as well as the Machapunga and presumably other allies, they couldn't make it north because they were blocked by soldiers. So where do they go? They went into the swamps, and the Yamassee people from South Carolina had been a major tool of the English in the war against the Tuscarora. Within months of helping put down the revolt of the Tuscarora, they had their own revolt because they realized that they were on the wrong side and that they weren't getting treated any better. And they have the Yamassee War, which lasted another two years. So now the swamps have the pesky leveler whites and blacks they have fighting indigenous people and they've all been driven into the swamps. Because of all that slave labor and plantation culture could move into the area more freely. So basically the like the cool vibe of North Carolina is going away quickly, right, numbers of enslaved people skyrocketed. Laws against black and indigenous people voting were passed. Black people from Virginia started making their way into the swamps also at this point, and they're fleeing the slave labor camps where they've been imprisoned. And the thing is people were helping them do it. Like the thing that is like it wasn't just like, oh, I'm going to go run into the swamps and hope for the best. Right, these swamps are a pretty literal maze, right, and the wrong path will kill you. So they were met by other Maroons who navigated them in Oh it's cool. Yeah, they had this whole elaborate system.

So the Tuscara went back to war. They were like, all right, well, we had a truce and you didn't do it. So they attacked more of the slave labor camps. But unfortunately the divide and conqueror was like real close to home. They told the chief of the northern Tuscarora, it was kind of divided into two groups, told them that he would rule over the southern Tuscarora too if he would join the English in the war, and that happened. So hundreds of southern Tuscarora and their allies laid up in a fort for a last stand, and a ton of them were slaughtered or sold into slavery. At this point, the majority of the Tuscarora went north and joined the Iroquois Confederacy, which is that massive democra project that is way way more interesting in radical and democratic than the US has ever been or will be. But a whole lot of the Tuscarora people, as well as the Machapunga and presumably other allies, they couldn't make it north because they were blocked by soldiers. So where do they go? They went into the swamps, and the Yamassee people from South Carolina had been a major tool of the English in the war against the Tuscarora. Within months of helping put down the revolt of the Tuscarora, they had their own revolt because they realized that they were on the wrong side and that they weren't getting treated any better. And they have the Yamassee War, which lasted another two years. So now the swamps have the pesky leveler whites and blacks they have fighting indigenous people and they've all been driven into the swamps. Because of all that slave labor and plantation culture could move into the area more freely. So basically the like the cool vibe of North Carolina is going away quickly, right, numbers of enslaved people skyrocketed. Laws against black and indigenous people voting were passed. Black people from Virginia started making their way into the swamps also at this point, and they're fleeing the slave labor camps where they've been imprisoned. And the thing is people were helping them do it. Like the thing that is like it wasn't just like, oh, I'm going to go run into the swamps and hope for the best. Right, these swamps are a pretty literal maze, right, and the wrong path will kill you. So they were met by other Maroons who navigated them in Oh it's cool. Yeah, they had this whole elaborate system.

Because if you don't like, you're fucked right, Like, yeah, it's not this is not a nice concrete path, this is swamp.

Because if you don't like, you're fucked right, Like, yeah, it's not this is not a nice concrete path, this is swamp.

Yeah, And it's not even just like, oh, I'm going to walk through some like knee high muck. It's like I'm walking through nee high muck. Now I'm over my head. There's an alligator you.

Yeah, And it's not even just like, oh, I'm going to walk through some like knee high muck. It's like I'm walking through nee high muck. Now I'm over my head. There's an alligator you.

Know right, Oh in that giant spider that you talked about.

Know right, Oh in that giant spider that you talked about.

Oh yeah, like literally later on, basically, the colonial media, or I guess it was the United States media. The slave media was like, God, this sounds like something that anyway. Whatever. The slave media was like, there's snakes in there. Don't go in there. There's snakes, you know, stay here and grow stuff for us instead of hanging out with snakes. I mean there were lots of venomous snakes in there. It was a really rough place, you know. And overall, the most common form of resistance that the Maroons did sort of universally was they helped others find their way in. And we also have some evidence that basically once you were helped in, they would set you up. The people who live there. You're not necessarily like joining in. It's not like, oh, we all live in one big, happy commune or like one big city in the middle and whatever. But they're like, oh, okay, we'll set you up. Well, we know where all the spots of land are. Archaeological evidence is that over this entire region, like almost all of the dry island areas had like multiple buildings and like was like people were living there, you know, yeah, And so they get you set up when you get in, and soon enough you have multi generational communities scattered all throughout the swamps. Some are in the edges, still interacting with the regular world. Some are deep inside the swamps. Many people spend their entire lives without leaving the swamps. Theoretically, we don't know a ton about their lives. There's like the stuff that people are able to conjecture, and the numbers are pretty unknown. The main estimate that people have is like two to three thousand over the course of centuries, like not total, but at any given time. But those are the estimates of like the militias chasing Nat Turner later. So there's no reason to believe those estimates. Like we don't know, we don't know when people live there. A lot of them wild people went, according to the Governor of Virginia, every single day. The Governor of Virginia said about the dismal quote, great numbers of loose and disorderly people daily flock thither, which is, I want to be wherever, great numbers of loosen disorderly people greatly daily flock thither, even if I don't say it. And so the Great Dismal Swamp became a maroon community, not just any maroon community, but the largest and longest lasting and most influential in US history. As history of Medievo cadal I put it, quote, the Great Dismal Swamp was a regional magnet to the oppressed, the dispossessed, the defiant, the rebellious, and those who refused to be bound by the conventions of hierarchical society. Swamps were places where no horses or dogs could be used to hunt them down, and where tobacco production simply could not take place. They were places of peace, where loved ones could not be bought or sold. These were places where freedom seekers could build the intimately democratic communities where they could survive and thrive. Wow, I know, it's just like I such a like people do amazing shit in really bad situations. You know. Yeah, sometimes it almost seems like it doesn't really, but sometimes it seems like it takes a real bad situation before people do really amazing shit. But actually people would have been doing this amazing shit if there hadn't been the terrible stuff either, So I don't know. They lived in swamp cabins on the islands of dry Land. They raised livestock and crops. The Maroons had their own internal economy. Archaeologists are aware of at least one person building musical instruments. Most of their life was concerned with daily life, not waging war against slave society. But there were like multiple anthropologists of like, there's like four different classifications of Maroons in there. There's like the deep maroon people who are like, I'm never going anywhere, and then there's the people who kind of live in the periphery and mostly raid and like. So you can't really easily say, like, oh, everyone wanted to be left alone. The people want to be left alone went to the damn middle, and the people who wanted to hang out on the edge and like kill people they didn't like lived on the edge and kill people they didn't like.

Oh yeah, like literally later on, basically, the colonial media, or I guess it was the United States media. The slave media was like, God, this sounds like something that anyway. Whatever. The slave media was like, there's snakes in there. Don't go in there. There's snakes, you know, stay here and grow stuff for us instead of hanging out with snakes. I mean there were lots of venomous snakes in there. It was a really rough place, you know. And overall, the most common form of resistance that the Maroons did sort of universally was they helped others find their way in. And we also have some evidence that basically once you were helped in, they would set you up. The people who live there. You're not necessarily like joining in. It's not like, oh, we all live in one big, happy commune or like one big city in the middle and whatever. But they're like, oh, okay, we'll set you up. Well, we know where all the spots of land are. Archaeological evidence is that over this entire region, like almost all of the dry island areas had like multiple buildings and like was like people were living there, you know, yeah, And so they get you set up when you get in, and soon enough you have multi generational communities scattered all throughout the swamps. Some are in the edges, still interacting with the regular world. Some are deep inside the swamps. Many people spend their entire lives without leaving the swamps. Theoretically, we don't know a ton about their lives. There's like the stuff that people are able to conjecture, and the numbers are pretty unknown. The main estimate that people have is like two to three thousand over the course of centuries, like not total, but at any given time. But those are the estimates of like the militias chasing Nat Turner later. So there's no reason to believe those estimates. Like we don't know, we don't know when people live there. A lot of them wild people went, according to the Governor of Virginia, every single day. The Governor of Virginia said about the dismal quote, great numbers of loose and disorderly people daily flock thither, which is, I want to be wherever, great numbers of loosen disorderly people greatly daily flock thither, even if I don't say it. And so the Great Dismal Swamp became a maroon community, not just any maroon community, but the largest and longest lasting and most influential in US history. As history of Medievo cadal I put it, quote, the Great Dismal Swamp was a regional magnet to the oppressed, the dispossessed, the defiant, the rebellious, and those who refused to be bound by the conventions of hierarchical society. Swamps were places where no horses or dogs could be used to hunt them down, and where tobacco production simply could not take place. They were places of peace, where loved ones could not be bought or sold. These were places where freedom seekers could build the intimately democratic communities where they could survive and thrive. Wow, I know, it's just like I such a like people do amazing shit in really bad situations. You know. Yeah, sometimes it almost seems like it doesn't really, but sometimes it seems like it takes a real bad situation before people do really amazing shit. But actually people would have been doing this amazing shit if there hadn't been the terrible stuff either, So I don't know. They lived in swamp cabins on the islands of dry Land. They raised livestock and crops. The Maroons had their own internal economy. Archaeologists are aware of at least one person building musical instruments. Most of their life was concerned with daily life, not waging war against slave society. But there were like multiple anthropologists of like, there's like four different classifications of Maroons in there. There's like the deep maroon people who are like, I'm never going anywhere, and then there's the people who kind of live in the periphery and mostly raid and like. So you can't really easily say, like, oh, everyone wanted to be left alone. The people want to be left alone went to the damn middle, and the people who wanted to hang out on the edge and like kill people they didn't like lived on the edge and kill people they didn't like.

You know, that makes sense.

You know, that makes sense.

It's just logical something for everyone.

It's just logical something for everyone.

Yeah.

Yeah.

As for the word maroon, maroon was originally a Spanish term for the cattle that escaped from early settlers and went feral. By the fifteen forties, it was applied to people and by the fifteen seventies, it appeared in English and the colonial Americans the government wasn't really a big fan of this thing that was happening. They were like, we don't even know where the line between the two of our colonies is who's in charge? And this is like literally they would have this problem where they'd want to go and raid or they'd want to strike back right against the raiders, but they kind of didn't because they didn't know whose territory it was, because they didn't know if it was Virginia North Carolina. And the existence of maroonage was really uncomfortable for white slavers because it was a beacon for enslave people, absolutely, but also because it didn't sit right with the lies that slavers told. Slavers in the US at the time would claim shit that like, oh, black people are naturally docile, or they can't survive without benevolent white owners, and the Great Dismal Swamp was just a counter example, and they weren't happy with it. Historian J. Brent Morris put it like this quote, Maroon voices demand a reassessment of the meaning of freedom. Maroonage in the Dismal represented an alternative to a life of enslavement. It also represented a choice, in most cases to live free lives in the swamp in the south rather than seeking it in a free state or Canada. Maroon Voices also remind us that freedom was not just an accomplishment after passage along the underground railroad, but a maroonage process sustained by their own heroic efforts. And a lot of both of these books that I read about this really wanted to kind of hit home. I think in kind of contrast the way that American history is taught that even the underground railroad, like people kind of like the underground railroad, the white people kind of like the underground railroad because it's like, oh, we went and helped people. And it's true, the people who did the underground railroad are fucking heroes, right, but then what yeah, totally that's a And also like they were freeing themselves with help, right, not sure, just pure people without agency you can't rescue themselves. And the existence of maroons. The self emancipation is a big evidence of that. And people talk about basically anyone, including the people who use the underground railroad, are self emancipating. And I really like that way of framing it. It's also true that, yeah, people would get north and nearly you're free, welcome to capitalism, work a job, or die, you know. Yep. Literally half the arguments that the abolitionists made against slavery were economic, that it was cheaper to not take care of people's health. Yeah, everything that seems like it should be good is bad. Like, for example, that Ben Franklin thing where he's like, let's make America white. It was an argument against transporting people from Africa, right, because he didn't want more black people, because he wanted America pure and white, and so it was sort of an anti slavery argument for the aliens.

As for the word maroon, maroon was originally a Spanish term for the cattle that escaped from early settlers and went feral. By the fifteen forties, it was applied to people and by the fifteen seventies, it appeared in English and the colonial Americans the government wasn't really a big fan of this thing that was happening. They were like, we don't even know where the line between the two of our colonies is who's in charge? And this is like literally they would have this problem where they'd want to go and raid or they'd want to strike back right against the raiders, but they kind of didn't because they didn't know whose territory it was, because they didn't know if it was Virginia North Carolina. And the existence of maroonage was really uncomfortable for white slavers because it was a beacon for enslave people, absolutely, but also because it didn't sit right with the lies that slavers told. Slavers in the US at the time would claim shit that like, oh, black people are naturally docile, or they can't survive without benevolent white owners, and the Great Dismal Swamp was just a counter example, and they weren't happy with it. Historian J. Brent Morris put it like this quote, Maroon voices demand a reassessment of the meaning of freedom. Maroonage in the Dismal represented an alternative to a life of enslavement. It also represented a choice, in most cases to live free lives in the swamp in the south rather than seeking it in a free state or Canada. Maroon Voices also remind us that freedom was not just an accomplishment after passage along the underground railroad, but a maroonage process sustained by their own heroic efforts. And a lot of both of these books that I read about this really wanted to kind of hit home. I think in kind of contrast the way that American history is taught that even the underground railroad, like people kind of like the underground railroad, the white people kind of like the underground railroad because it's like, oh, we went and helped people. And it's true, the people who did the underground railroad are fucking heroes, right, but then what yeah, totally that's a And also like they were freeing themselves with help, right, not sure, just pure people without agency you can't rescue themselves. And the existence of maroons. The self emancipation is a big evidence of that. And people talk about basically anyone, including the people who use the underground railroad, are self emancipating. And I really like that way of framing it. It's also true that, yeah, people would get north and nearly you're free, welcome to capitalism, work a job, or die, you know. Yep. Literally half the arguments that the abolitionists made against slavery were economic, that it was cheaper to not take care of people's health. Yeah, everything that seems like it should be good is bad. Like, for example, that Ben Franklin thing where he's like, let's make America white. It was an argument against transporting people from Africa, right, because he didn't want more black people, because he wanted America pure and white, and so it was sort of an anti slavery argument for the aliens.

Yeah, oh that breaks my brain.

Yeah, oh that breaks my brain.

Yep. Fucking eighteenth century politics in the US are wacky. Yeah, nineteenth century, twenty whatever politics. The swamps stood in the way of colonization. It was untameable, it was unplawable, it was full of disease. It actually probably wasn't really full of disease, but they believed in the miasma theory of disease at the time. I mean, I'm sure the mosquitoes were carrying some diseases. I'm sure it wasn't a super healthy place. But they thought literally like disease like grew up out of the water.

Yep. Fucking eighteenth century politics in the US are wacky. Yeah, nineteenth century, twenty whatever politics. The swamps stood in the way of colonization. It was untameable, it was unplawable, it was full of disease. It actually probably wasn't really full of disease, but they believed in the miasma theory of disease at the time. I mean, I'm sure the mosquitoes were carrying some diseases. I'm sure it wasn't a super healthy place. But they thought literally like disease like grew up out of the water.

Not ideal, but also really good to scare people off.

Not ideal, but also really good to scare people off.

Yeah, that's a good point, they probably, Yeah, there's diseases here in snakes, you know, stay the hell away from us.

Yeah, that's a good point, they probably, Yeah, there's diseases here in snakes, you know, stay the hell away from us.

Which is like, probably true, but maybe not as extreme as they wanted people who they wanted to keep out to think.

Which is like, probably true, but maybe not as extreme as they wanted people who they wanted to keep out to think.

Right, Yeah, totally. And so the idea of this untamable nature was an affront to the very idea of enlightenment rational Western thought. Nature has to be subdivided and controlled. But the swamp refused them, and so the people who lived in it were themselves sort of inherently outlaws, even the ones who weren't fugitives, because they were living in this uncontrollable space and they lived as outlaws. The first raids out of the swamp were in seventeen oh nine. They robbed storehouses and started picking off farm animals that were close to the swamp. Also in seventeen oh nine, they started planning a slave revolt from the swamps, one that I don't know a ton about, but it happened. In seventeen oh nine, Black and indigenous people started getting ready for revolt. Its leaders were hanged, drawn and quartered, including a man named Angola Peter, but neither of Virginia or North Carolina was sure of who was in charge of subduing revolts because no one knew where the line is. But don't worry one bold man just kidding. He sucked and he's kind of a coward.

Right, Yeah, totally. And so the idea of this untamable nature was an affront to the very idea of enlightenment rational Western thought. Nature has to be subdivided and controlled. But the swamp refused them, and so the people who lived in it were themselves sort of inherently outlaws, even the ones who weren't fugitives, because they were living in this uncontrollable space and they lived as outlaws. The first raids out of the swamp were in seventeen oh nine. They robbed storehouses and started picking off farm animals that were close to the swamp. Also in seventeen oh nine, they started planning a slave revolt from the swamps, one that I don't know a ton about, but it happened. In seventeen oh nine, Black and indigenous people started getting ready for revolt. Its leaders were hanged, drawn and quartered, including a man named Angola Peter, but neither of Virginia or North Carolina was sure of who was in charge of subduing revolts because no one knew where the line is. But don't worry one bold man just kidding. He sucked and he's kind of a coward.

I was like, it was, like, what podcast am I on?

I was like, it was, like, what podcast am I on?

H Yeah, yeah, will Bird the second? If there was a show about bad people?

H Yeah, yeah, will Bird the second? If there was a show about bad people?

O fucking way.

O fucking way.

Yeah. Could you imagine being named the second instead of Junior?

Yeah. Could you imagine being named the second instead of Junior?

Yeah?

Yeah?

Like, I'm sorry, you don't get to be uh the number until you're at least the third. You're just gonna have to suck it up for a generation. Kiddo, you are William Bird Junior.

Like, I'm sorry, you don't get to be uh the number until you're at least the third. You're just gonna have to suck it up for a generation. Kiddo, you are William Bird Junior.

That's so fucking funny.

That's so fucking funny.

In seventeen twenty eight, he went into Survey the Place. He was a wealthy Virginia planter who wanted to know exactly where the line between good and noble Virginia and bad and rebellious North Carolina was. He was one of the worst people I've ever read about. He was absolutely brutal to the people he owned. He was so afraid of slaver volt that he tortured and sexually assaulted everyone he owned just to make sure they would never revolt God. And then here's the part that makes him like not just terrible, but like fucking poetically terrible. Starting in seventeen oh nine, I think when he's like a kid, he had recurring nightmares about slaver volts. And the way that these nightmares happen is that there is a great fireball in the sky over Virginia that represents divine wrath against slavery. Imagine having that dream and then being like, I'm probably the good guy here. I have dreams where God is going to burn me up for my evil. Better go mistreat these people. It's through his accounts that we get some of the first written record of the people living in the swamp. So this is like when I say that the record is like kind of fucked up, this is the first guy who like went in and talked to people who lived there.

In seventeen twenty eight, he went into Survey the Place. He was a wealthy Virginia planter who wanted to know exactly where the line between good and noble Virginia and bad and rebellious North Carolina was. He was one of the worst people I've ever read about. He was absolutely brutal to the people he owned. He was so afraid of slaver volt that he tortured and sexually assaulted everyone he owned just to make sure they would never revolt God. And then here's the part that makes him like not just terrible, but like fucking poetically terrible. Starting in seventeen oh nine, I think when he's like a kid, he had recurring nightmares about slaver volts. And the way that these nightmares happen is that there is a great fireball in the sky over Virginia that represents divine wrath against slavery. Imagine having that dream and then being like, I'm probably the good guy here. I have dreams where God is going to burn me up for my evil. Better go mistreat these people. It's through his accounts that we get some of the first written record of the people living in the swamp. So this is like when I say that the record is like kind of fucked up, this is the first guy who like went in and talked to people who lived there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So unreliable narrator, I know.

So unreliable narrator, I know.

But what's so funny is I think he's so in his own head that he doesn't occur to him to have lied in.

But what's so funny is I think he's so in his own head that he doesn't occur to him to have lied in.

This case, because he sure so weird.

This case, because he sure so weird.

He starts on the coast and then with a bunch of surveyors he starts heading west inland. And the people he met there were terrible and barbarous people. After all, they shared work equally between men and women. Oh, this is the thing that's going to come up again and again. But it's like really subtext because women are written out of all history, right, Well, you know who else is written out of history? Advertisers. There is not actually a lot of record of the advertisers of old newspapers. I sometimes look, I don't always find it because one thing that I absolutely did start noticing Isbister doing a radical podcast with mainstream advertisers, is that old radical newspapers absolutely at advertisers because you actually need to pay to get things out there. And I'm in part of a long, noble tradition of pivoting to ads like these ones. And we're back. So obviously you talk about at the time how women are written out of history. But one of the things that's come up everything I've read about the dismal swamp, they're like not marking the gender of what's happening overall. I mean, they are some times are talking about women who are enslaved who fled there and stuff also right, but it seems like almost everything, including the fighting that I'm going to talk about, happening, was fairly probably not fifty to fifty gender split, but was like a substantially more egalitarian thing than what was happening outside. Specifically, when Bird Junior is in there, he's like, is terrible here they share work equally between men and women, I know, And like he's also like almost mad that they offer anyone runaway slave or common criminal alike, not just a place to stay, but help them get a good spot of dry land. Like one family also that probably had a fugitive for a father, because he was asking like, oh do y'all do and they're all like, oh, we're all born free. But then like dad just like kind of kept hiding, you know, yeah, because he was because he's a fugitive. That family where the dad was a fugitive, still took in this like white survey team and gave them a place to stay and fed them because they are good fucking people, like probably two good of people. You know. If they just drowned all of these men, the world would have been a better place. Allegedly, so Bird dedicated his life to destroying that man and everyone like him, like only a slaver colonizer can do. Thanks for the dinner.

He starts on the coast and then with a bunch of surveyors he starts heading west inland. And the people he met there were terrible and barbarous people. After all, they shared work equally between men and women. Oh, this is the thing that's going to come up again and again. But it's like really subtext because women are written out of all history, right, Well, you know who else is written out of history? Advertisers. There is not actually a lot of record of the advertisers of old newspapers. I sometimes look, I don't always find it because one thing that I absolutely did start noticing Isbister doing a radical podcast with mainstream advertisers, is that old radical newspapers absolutely at advertisers because you actually need to pay to get things out there. And I'm in part of a long, noble tradition of pivoting to ads like these ones. And we're back. So obviously you talk about at the time how women are written out of history. But one of the things that's come up everything I've read about the dismal swamp, they're like not marking the gender of what's happening overall. I mean, they are some times are talking about women who are enslaved who fled there and stuff also right, but it seems like almost everything, including the fighting that I'm going to talk about, happening, was fairly probably not fifty to fifty gender split, but was like a substantially more egalitarian thing than what was happening outside. Specifically, when Bird Junior is in there, he's like, is terrible here they share work equally between men and women, I know, And like he's also like almost mad that they offer anyone runaway slave or common criminal alike, not just a place to stay, but help them get a good spot of dry land. Like one family also that probably had a fugitive for a father, because he was asking like, oh do y'all do and they're all like, oh, we're all born free. But then like dad just like kind of kept hiding, you know, yeah, because he was because he's a fugitive. That family where the dad was a fugitive, still took in this like white survey team and gave them a place to stay and fed them because they are good fucking people, like probably two good of people. You know. If they just drowned all of these men, the world would have been a better place. Allegedly, so Bird dedicated his life to destroying that man and everyone like him, like only a slaver colonizer can do. Thanks for the dinner.

What a fucking asshole.

What a fucking asshole.

He wrote this long piece about how if this society of slaves wasn't destroyed, like murdered in its cradle, it would likely become a new Rome.

He wrote this long piece about how if this society of slaves wasn't destroyed, like murdered in its cradle, it would likely become a new Rome.

What a weird fucking motherfucking dude.

What a weird fucking motherfucking dude.

Okay, yeah, Bird Junior is a strange man. He compares the Maroons to Romulus and Remus, the two twins who founded Rome. But negatively he's like, oh, we better stop this. Like he this man knows he's on the wrong side. He sees fireballs. And they kept telling him, all the people he stayed with, they kept telling him in no uncertain terms that if he and his men kept going into the real heart of the swamps, they would never return. This was maybe a friendly warning, and maybe it was all like, get the fuck out of here, don't blow up our spot.

Okay, yeah, Bird Junior is a strange man. He compares the Maroons to Romulus and Remus, the two twins who founded Rome. But negatively he's like, oh, we better stop this. Like he this man knows he's on the wrong side. He sees fireballs. And they kept telling him, all the people he stayed with, they kept telling him in no uncertain terms that if he and his men kept going into the real heart of the swamps, they would never return. This was maybe a friendly warning, and maybe it was all like, get the fuck out of here, don't blow up our spot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

When they going got tough, the rich guy got going. His crew went on without him to survey in the interior of the swamp. He went around and waited for them to come out the other side, and then to try and take all the credit for doing the survey. Like, if you're gonna be a gentleman adventurer, asshole, at least go do the adventure. You know, I just don't like this man.

When they going got tough, the rich guy got going. His crew went on without him to survey in the interior of the swamp. He went around and waited for them to come out the other side, and then to try and take all the credit for doing the survey. Like, if you're gonna be a gentleman adventurer, asshole, at least go do the adventure. You know, I just don't like this man.

No, he's awful. Fuck him.

No, he's awful. Fuck him.

His crew survived, but they only made it like a mile or two a day while they're trying to survey the swamps. Eventually, after eight days, they ran short on supplies and they gave up on surveying and just booked it west, trying not to die. And even then they were still only able to make it like four miles a day across this terrain. Only two years later, the largest colonial era slave rebellion popped off, the Chesapeake Rebellion of seventeen thirty. And this one is interesting. We know way more about this one, or I know way more about this one than I did about the seventeen oh nine one. Basically, someone probably an enslaved person, started a rumor that the king had declared that anyone baptized Christian was now going to be freed from slavery, and so hundreds of people felt the local officials were refusing the king's orders to free them. They were like no, no, no, the kings had were free. Now we heard a rumor like I'm Christian, you gotta let me go, which is what it used to be, right right, And so they started drilling in units, getting ready for a fight because they had been given legitimacy by the king, which is such an interesting like most of the other rebellions didn't feel like they needed this. They were like that man thinks he owned me, let's kill him, you know. But it was an effective way to get hundreds of people together. They started drilling, getting ready for a fight, and it was broken up and the rebels fled into the swamps, and from there they led a gorilla struggle for years. And that asshole Bird yeah, Bird Junior, Yeah yeah, maybe Bird Senior was a little better, but I doubt it.

His crew survived, but they only made it like a mile or two a day while they're trying to survey the swamps. Eventually, after eight days, they ran short on supplies and they gave up on surveying and just booked it west, trying not to die. And even then they were still only able to make it like four miles a day across this terrain. Only two years later, the largest colonial era slave rebellion popped off, the Chesapeake Rebellion of seventeen thirty. And this one is interesting. We know way more about this one, or I know way more about this one than I did about the seventeen oh nine one. Basically, someone probably an enslaved person, started a rumor that the king had declared that anyone baptized Christian was now going to be freed from slavery, and so hundreds of people felt the local officials were refusing the king's orders to free them. They were like no, no, no, the kings had were free. Now we heard a rumor like I'm Christian, you gotta let me go, which is what it used to be, right right, And so they started drilling in units, getting ready for a fight because they had been given legitimacy by the king, which is such an interesting like most of the other rebellions didn't feel like they needed this. They were like that man thinks he owned me, let's kill him, you know. But it was an effective way to get hundreds of people together. They started drilling, getting ready for a fight, and it was broken up and the rebels fled into the swamps, and from there they led a gorilla struggle for years. And that asshole Bird yeah, Bird Junior, Yeah yeah, maybe Bird Senior was a little better, but I doubt it.

Oh goddage, still far.

Oh goddage, still far.

Far from the tree.

Far from the tree.

What did he do? What did he do?

What did he do? What did he do?

He was really worried about the Maroons. He was considered the world's leading expert on them because he'd met some of them and survived to tell the tale, because they'd fed him and housed him and informed him about dangers.

He was really worried about the Maroons. He was considered the world's leading expert on them because he'd met some of them and survived to tell the tale, because they'd fed him and housed him and informed him about dangers.

This fuck.

This fuck.

Yeah, Jamaico was in an all out Maroon war at the time, which I hope it covered more one day, and Bird was like, really worried about the maroons. I think he was also a little bit worried about his own career and posterity. He advocated for the end of the Transatlantic slave trade. Here's more of the people doing everything you think is good is secretly bad.

Yeah, Jamaico was in an all out Maroon war at the time, which I hope it covered more one day, and Bird was like, really worried about the maroons. I think he was also a little bit worried about his own career and posterity. He advocated for the end of the Transatlantic slave trade. Here's more of the people doing everything you think is good is secretly bad.

Yeah, what's what's the what's the uh?

Yeah, what's what's the what's the uh?

He was like, we need to end the Transatlantic slave trade because Africans are more likely to maroon than seasoned That gets Air quotes African Americans who'd been born into slavery. It's about like three times more common for people who were born in Africa to maroon than people who were born in the United States. And so he was like, I'm going to write up this. He wrote up a long thing about how to physically drain the swamp. Oh yeah, now we get to the drain the swamp part, because why not ever leave modern politics behind? And so he writes this whole thing about how to drain the swamp. But it wasn't him who tried to do it.

He was like, we need to end the Transatlantic slave trade because Africans are more likely to maroon than seasoned That gets Air quotes African Americans who'd been born into slavery. It's about like three times more common for people who were born in Africa to maroon than people who were born in the United States. And so he was like, I'm going to write up this. He wrote up a long thing about how to physically drain the swamp. Oh yeah, now we get to the drain the swamp part, because why not ever leave modern politics behind? And so he writes this whole thing about how to drain the swamp. But it wasn't him who tried to do it.

Instead, is that where the fucking dream the swamp the shit comes from?

Instead, is that where the fucking dream the swamp the shit comes from?

So I don't know, I never thought about it and I never write about it. Yeah, I mean I doubt Trump was like specifically, like I'm talking about the Great Dismal Swamp.

So I don't know, I never thought about it and I never write about it. Yeah, I mean I doubt Trump was like specifically, like I'm talking about the Great Dismal Swamp.

Oh no, No, he doesn't know anything about anything that's ever happened in the history of the world.

Oh no, No, he doesn't know anything about anything that's ever happened in the history of the world.

Yeah, but this like goal to drain the swamp thing is a huge par art of this era of colonial history because people are really worried about this shit.

Yeah, but this like goal to drain the swamp thing is a huge par art of this era of colonial history because people are really worried about this shit.

No, it wouldn't make sense that that's where that originally started. God, Okay, And.

No, it wouldn't make sense that that's where that originally started. God, Okay, And.

So you know how like sometimes people look at Trump as like in the far right is his aberration and how far we've come far to the right of the old original. Like, Nah, the first guy who tried to drain the swamp, he was a guy you might have heard of. He's maybe the most famous slaver in all of history. He is so terrifying that he wore the teeth of slaves in his own mouth like a cartoon villain.

So you know how like sometimes people look at Trump as like in the far right is his aberration and how far we've come far to the right of the old original. Like, Nah, the first guy who tried to drain the swamp, he was a guy you might have heard of. He's maybe the most famous slaver in all of history. He is so terrifying that he wore the teeth of slaves in his own mouth like a cartoon villain.

Church fucking Washington and George Market It.

Church fucking Washington and George Market It.

Is George fucking Washington, the guy who went on to start the world's most powerful slave empire. George Washington and his brother John and some other guys.

Is George fucking Washington, the guy who went on to start the world's most powerful slave empire. George Washington and his brother John and some other guys.

Fuck fuck fuck okay to me, more n me more demore.

Fuck fuck fuck okay to me, more n me more demore.

Yeah. In seventeen fifty three, the entire region was given a four guys because that's the other thing is that people were like, oh, private corporations run everything now in America, and like that is the way America was founded. It was actually really specifically in contrast to the way that like the Catholic countries, which were not less evil, but the Catholic colonies were more like everything's owned by the church and the state and shit. Yeah, whereas like British colonies were like, we have the such and such company with shareholders and blah blah blah. You know. So they gave the entire Great Dismal Swamp to four guys, not the Washington's. They were just hired on at first.

Yeah. In seventeen fifty three, the entire region was given a four guys because that's the other thing is that people were like, oh, private corporations run everything now in America, and like that is the way America was founded. It was actually really specifically in contrast to the way that like the Catholic countries, which were not less evil, but the Catholic colonies were more like everything's owned by the church and the state and shit. Yeah, whereas like British colonies were like, we have the such and such company with shareholders and blah blah blah. You know. So they gave the entire Great Dismal Swamp to four guys, not the Washington's. They were just hired on at first.

This is breaking my brain.

This is breaking my brain.

Continue, Yeah, In seventeen sixty two, the four Guys sent an enslaved cruise to tame the swamp, and they hired this thirty one year old white guy to help, a guy named George Washington, and Washington incorporated a group called Adventurers to Drain the Dismal Swamp, which is a genuinely funny name to name a company.

Continue, Yeah, In seventeen sixty two, the four Guys sent an enslaved cruise to tame the swamp, and they hired this thirty one year old white guy to help, a guy named George Washington, and Washington incorporated a group called Adventurers to Drain the Dismal Swamp, which is a genuinely funny name to name a company.

What.

What.

Okay, sorry, because I think he's into this idea of like I'm a gentleman adventurer.

Okay, sorry, because I think he's into this idea of like I'm a gentleman adventurer.

You know, God, just the like romanticizing of this man that this country has, this planet has done. When he's like, that's your title, Yeah, that's your title, you fucking creep.

You know, God, just the like romanticizing of this man that this country has, this planet has done. When he's like, that's your title, Yeah, that's your title, you fucking creep.

Yeah, he's just a cartoon villain. He runs a group called Adventures to Drain It. Yeah, and later this is renamed the Less Fun Dismal Swamp Company. The only thing that was dismal was their chances of success h and also the working conditions of the people who died enslaved underneath them. Each of these bold adventurers was like, all right, we're each going to donate five guys we owned to get this done, and we'll all get super rich. But they were all trying to outstingy each other, right, and so they all sent their least capable guys, their like least valuable people that they thought they owned. Old slave Teath himself didn't even send five. He only sent two guys he owned and forced to dig like dig ditches in swamp water. A whole bunch of them ran away to join the Maroons, including a couple with really cool names, Jack Dismal and his wife Venus. And those are good names.

Yeah, he's just a cartoon villain. He runs a group called Adventures to Drain It. Yeah, and later this is renamed the Less Fun Dismal Swamp Company. The only thing that was dismal was their chances of success h and also the working conditions of the people who died enslaved underneath them. Each of these bold adventurers was like, all right, we're each going to donate five guys we owned to get this done, and we'll all get super rich. But they were all trying to outstingy each other, right, and so they all sent their least capable guys, their like least valuable people that they thought they owned. Old slave Teath himself didn't even send five. He only sent two guys he owned and forced to dig like dig ditches in swamp water. A whole bunch of them ran away to join the Maroons, including a couple with really cool names, Jack Dismal and his wife Venus. And those are good names.

Those are good names.

Those are good names.

And we know at least Jack is going to ride away into the sunset, happy and alive at the end of this story. And I'm just assuming Venus does as well, because I have no evidence of the contrary.

And we know at least Jack is going to ride away into the sunset, happy and alive at the end of this story. And I'm just assuming Venus does as well, because I have no evidence of the contrary.

Cool fucking name Venus dismal.

Cool fucking name Venus dismal.

I know, I know I would. I'd be surprised if I've never met anyone who goes by that. That's such a good fucking name. The whole company was a failure. It was a dismal failure, and well done. I love how the swamp is dismal for slavers and evil civilization, but it's actually good and amazing for the people resisting these things. Unpaid workers kept dying or running away, and the only money that the company made was by selling shingles, and it did not drain the swamp, and it did not even survey the swamp. Seventeen seventy five year olled around and the Washington brothers, John and George had other shit on their minds. Their fun little adventure of overseeing a little death camp on the edge of a swamp was over, like literally, their idea of a good time is to go oversee a slave death camp. Anyway, I don't like them. No, so they had to move on to bigger things. They had a whole continent and later world to destroy with the American Revolution. I've probably mentioned it a few times on this show, but the leaders of the American Revolution were doing it to protect their right to expand their colonies into indigenous territories. And the whole thing about democracy and freedom is a terrible, sinister farce, a scam that they sold working people. But it's worth reiterating, as author Mediebo Cadale put it, quote, some people think that the United States of America is the greatest experiment in democracy, but there has never been any democracy here. Some people are in love with what they are told America is. But when you look at history very carefully, you will find that people whom I call freedom seekers and resistors were constantly running away from America. I really like that way of looking at it, being like, look, we're sold this like bill of goods. We're told America's land of freedom. Hey wait, why did all the black people side with the British? Hey wait, you know, like you just like slowly, it's not true, That's what I'm saying. The British declared freedom for any enslaved person who fled from the rebels. A group called Dunmore's Ethiopian Regiment, fifteen hundred strong, wore sashes that read Liberty to Slaves as they went into battle against George Washington and his army of slavery. And that is fucking cool. You're on the right side of history if you are in a battle wearing a fucking sash that reads liberty the slaves. Some of George Washington's own slaves fought him in that war, like Harry, who'd been kidnapped in Gambia and renamed Harry by George Washington and fought on the British side as Corporal Harry Washington. And he was as important of an icon to the black soldiers fighting against the American Revolution as George Washington was to the other side. And I like that both sides. Out of Washington, it's likely that a great number of this regiment came from the maroons of the swamp. The main evidence that we have of this is that so many of these soldiers had intimate knowledge of the swamps. Basically, they were like, yeah, all the people were just like knew all their ways in and out of the swamps, so they're from there. The enslaved people who've been set to drain the swamp escaped en masse and fled for freedom or to go fight against the Americans. Even after British forces abandoned the South, the raids from the Dismal kept going. So like, the British stopped trying to have a military presence around the Dismal Swamp, but the Maroons kept going. They were like, nope, we're fighting these fucking slave men, you know.

I know, I know I would. I'd be surprised if I've never met anyone who goes by that. That's such a good fucking name. The whole company was a failure. It was a dismal failure, and well done. I love how the swamp is dismal for slavers and evil civilization, but it's actually good and amazing for the people resisting these things. Unpaid workers kept dying or running away, and the only money that the company made was by selling shingles, and it did not drain the swamp, and it did not even survey the swamp. Seventeen seventy five year olled around and the Washington brothers, John and George had other shit on their minds. Their fun little adventure of overseeing a little death camp on the edge of a swamp was over, like literally, their idea of a good time is to go oversee a slave death camp. Anyway, I don't like them. No, so they had to move on to bigger things. They had a whole continent and later world to destroy with the American Revolution. I've probably mentioned it a few times on this show, but the leaders of the American Revolution were doing it to protect their right to expand their colonies into indigenous territories. And the whole thing about democracy and freedom is a terrible, sinister farce, a scam that they sold working people. But it's worth reiterating, as author Mediebo Cadale put it, quote, some people think that the United States of America is the greatest experiment in democracy, but there has never been any democracy here. Some people are in love with what they are told America is. But when you look at history very carefully, you will find that people whom I call freedom seekers and resistors were constantly running away from America. I really like that way of looking at it, being like, look, we're sold this like bill of goods. We're told America's land of freedom. Hey wait, why did all the black people side with the British? Hey wait, you know, like you just like slowly, it's not true, That's what I'm saying. The British declared freedom for any enslaved person who fled from the rebels. A group called Dunmore's Ethiopian Regiment, fifteen hundred strong, wore sashes that read Liberty to Slaves as they went into battle against George Washington and his army of slavery. And that is fucking cool. You're on the right side of history if you are in a battle wearing a fucking sash that reads liberty the slaves. Some of George Washington's own slaves fought him in that war, like Harry, who'd been kidnapped in Gambia and renamed Harry by George Washington and fought on the British side as Corporal Harry Washington. And he was as important of an icon to the black soldiers fighting against the American Revolution as George Washington was to the other side. And I like that both sides. Out of Washington, it's likely that a great number of this regiment came from the maroons of the swamp. The main evidence that we have of this is that so many of these soldiers had intimate knowledge of the swamps. Basically, they were like, yeah, all the people were just like knew all their ways in and out of the swamps, so they're from there. The enslaved people who've been set to drain the swamp escaped en masse and fled for freedom or to go fight against the Americans. Even after British forces abandoned the South, the raids from the Dismal kept going. So like, the British stopped trying to have a military presence around the Dismal Swamp, but the Maroons kept going. They were like, nope, we're fighting these fucking slave men, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And these were multi racial units. One landless white laborer named Jeshiah Phillips led a black and white band of fifty people in a gorilla struggle against the expansionist Americans. Many of them were Maroons, and Maroons kept them safe. When white men in the South were impressed into the military to track down Phillips's band, they basically refused to. Like all these people got like, hey, you're a militia, now go track down that, like the white guy who's leading a mixed race group of people against us or a multiracial group against us. And people are like, now, we're good, We're not tracking that guy down. We kind of like him. A quarter of them deserted.

And these were multi racial units. One landless white laborer named Jeshiah Phillips led a black and white band of fifty people in a gorilla struggle against the expansionist Americans. Many of them were Maroons, and Maroons kept them safe. When white men in the South were impressed into the military to track down Phillips's band, they basically refused to. Like all these people got like, hey, you're a militia, now go track down that, like the white guy who's leading a mixed race group of people against us or a multiracial group against us. And people are like, now, we're good, We're not tracking that guy down. We kind of like him. A quarter of them deserted.

That's so funny.

That's so funny.

Yeah, Phillips himself was caught and hanged in seventeen seventy eight. But one of the things that keeps going in this story is that as soon as they like take out one of the leaders, it stops nothing. And so that's how you know, the leaders are more like symbolic in figureheads rather than like indispensable. Sure, yeah, yeah, the band kept going until the end of the war. The whole Dismal Swamp region, not just the depths of it, was completely uncontrollable by the US, and that guy Jack Dismal, him and Corporal Harry Washington made it out on British ships to freedom, and I assume Venus was with him, but I don't know. Uck Yeah, yeah, because I'm not clearly the British were the bad people like twenty years ago at this point, I'm not trying. It's super hard to fend them. But like they told the truth when I said that not the.

Yeah, Phillips himself was caught and hanged in seventeen seventy eight. But one of the things that keeps going in this story is that as soon as they like take out one of the leaders, it stops nothing. And so that's how you know, the leaders are more like symbolic in figureheads rather than like indispensable. Sure, yeah, yeah, the band kept going until the end of the war. The whole Dismal Swamp region, not just the depths of it, was completely uncontrollable by the US, and that guy Jack Dismal, him and Corporal Harry Washington made it out on British ships to freedom, and I assume Venus was with him, but I don't know. Uck Yeah, yeah, because I'm not clearly the British were the bad people like twenty years ago at this point, I'm not trying. It's super hard to fend them. But like they told the truth when I said that not the.

Biggest villain in this very particular story.

Biggest villain in this very particular story.

Yeah, they were like, hey, well, we'll set you free if you fight for us, and then they did.

Yeah, they were like, hey, well, we'll set you free if you fight for us, and then they did.

And then they kept their word, which is crazy, I.

And then they kept their word, which is crazy, I.

Know, like genuinely wouldn't be surprised all of that hadn't happened. But yeah, and during the war, the population of Maroons inside the swamp grew and grew sick, and for the most part, they lived peaceful lives after that, though again many of them joined great abolitionist conspiracies throughout the new country. And we're going to get how like in another like twenty years, they're gonna be like basically in a war against the US. And so there's all these abolitionist conspiracies going up and down the country. Literally there's word of mouth campaigns organized by enslaved people. People were talking and organizing, and what they were talking about, Sophie, is they were talking about what a great deal on stuff they could find have by listening to podcasts.

Know, like genuinely wouldn't be surprised all of that hadn't happened. But yeah, and during the war, the population of Maroons inside the swamp grew and grew sick, and for the most part, they lived peaceful lives after that, though again many of them joined great abolitionist conspiracies throughout the new country. And we're going to get how like in another like twenty years, they're gonna be like basically in a war against the US. And so there's all these abolitionist conspiracies going up and down the country. Literally there's word of mouth campaigns organized by enslaved people. People were talking and organizing, and what they were talking about, Sophie, is they were talking about what a great deal on stuff they could find have by listening to podcasts.

Oh good for them.

Oh good for them.

It's only through podcasting that you hear the finest of goods and services, such as the ones who support this very show and we're back. So now you have this country, the United States of America, and they didn't like that a really big chunk of itself was a lawless land of outlaws who kept stealing their quote unquote property aka themselves. Like literally most of the records that we have about like the number of people living there was the amount of property damage done by their raids, which was number of people who've left like slave labor camps. By seventeen ninety, laws were passed by both Virginia and North Carolina to build a canal through the swamp. They wanted to use a private company, of course, because that's what the US was founded on, and for a decade hundreds of enslaved people worked and died building a canal, though they eventually did successfully build a twenty two mile canal, which immediately started getting used by radicals, which is kind of cool. Itinerant abolitionist preachers used to coordinate rebellion, and abolitionist ships would like show up, they'd like sail into the canal to go find people were hiding out and put them on boats and take them up to like Boston and shit, which is fucking cool. The Dismal Swamp became a stopover place for a lot of self emancipators after the United States was founded, and all the while maroons are organizing to attack the slave empire. And I was promising you, how when like one leader goes down, there's this others I'm gonna like I started tracking all of the names of all the different leaders of bands.

It's only through podcasting that you hear the finest of goods and services, such as the ones who support this very show and we're back. So now you have this country, the United States of America, and they didn't like that a really big chunk of itself was a lawless land of outlaws who kept stealing their quote unquote property aka themselves. Like literally most of the records that we have about like the number of people living there was the amount of property damage done by their raids, which was number of people who've left like slave labor camps. By seventeen ninety, laws were passed by both Virginia and North Carolina to build a canal through the swamp. They wanted to use a private company, of course, because that's what the US was founded on, and for a decade hundreds of enslaved people worked and died building a canal, though they eventually did successfully build a twenty two mile canal, which immediately started getting used by radicals, which is kind of cool. Itinerant abolitionist preachers used to coordinate rebellion, and abolitionist ships would like show up, they'd like sail into the canal to go find people were hiding out and put them on boats and take them up to like Boston and shit, which is fucking cool. The Dismal Swamp became a stopover place for a lot of self emancipators after the United States was founded, and all the while maroons are organizing to attack the slave empire. And I was promising you, how when like one leader goes down, there's this others I'm gonna like I started tracking all of the names of all the different leaders of bands.

But yeah, who's up. Who's the next? Motherfucker?

But yeah, who's up. Who's the next? Motherfucker?

Tom Copper? One man. Tom Copper was a fugitive himself, and he led at least thirty eight fighters on.

Tom Copper? One man. Tom Copper was a fugitive himself, and he led at least thirty eight fighters on.

The very based name of Tom Copper.

The very based name of Tom Copper.

I mean, like it's such a good though, like like if you wanted to watch like a noir film about.

I mean, like it's such a good though, like like if you wanted to watch like a noir film about.

It, Yeah, that character's day would be Tom Copper.

It, Yeah, that character's day would be Tom Copper.

Yeah, totally. Yeah, he led at least thirty eight fighters. Those are the number that were like literally they all wrote their name down on like a registry, but there's almost certainly probably hundreds more.

Yeah, totally. Yeah, he led at least thirty eight fighters. Those are the number that were like literally they all wrote their name down on like a registry, but there's almost certainly probably hundreds more.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And when he was arrested, six Maroons arrived on horseback and broke them out of jail.

And when he was arrested, six Maroons arrived on horseback and broke them out of jail.

Fuck yeah, I knew we'd have a jail break in here. I know, just had jailbreak energy. Let's go on a horseback to where's this fucking movie?

Fuck yeah, I knew we'd have a jail break in here. I know, just had jailbreak energy. Let's go on a horseback to where's this fucking movie?

I know. God for the people who came and rescued him were caught and ended up in prison in his place. But you know, that's the thing you try and do when you try and rescue your friends. And he did get out. His army grew, he had captains one per county who organized as well, and eventually one hundred Maroons were caught and tortured and executed around eighteen oh two. Exactly what happened to Tom Copper I think is lost to him. Yeah, after he disappeared, a new Maroon military leader, a preacher named General Peter, stepped up.

I know. God for the people who came and rescued him were caught and ended up in prison in his place. But you know, that's the thing you try and do when you try and rescue your friends. And he did get out. His army grew, he had captains one per county who organized as well, and eventually one hundred Maroons were caught and tortured and executed around eighteen oh two. Exactly what happened to Tom Copper I think is lost to him. Yeah, after he disappeared, a new Maroon military leader, a preacher named General Peter, stepped up.

They're just like picking the most generic male names of history. Peter, Paul, Tom, I mean, like Phil, Mike, John.

They're just like picking the most generic male names of history. Peter, Paul, Tom, I mean, like Phil, Mike, John.

There was only like ten names for white or black people in America for a very long time.

There was only like ten names for white or black people in America for a very long time.

You know, you know that's actually so fair. I'm like, oh, right, are we just naming apostles? What's happening?

You know, you know that's actually so fair. I'm like, oh, right, are we just naming apostles? What's happening?

Yeah, you just had you had to have a wasp name. And if you didn't have a wasp, like, you didn't have to be a wasp. You just had to have a wasp name.

Yeah, you just had you had to have a wasp name. And if you didn't have a wasp, like, you didn't have to be a wasp. You just had to have a wasp name.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so during this time, when you have this, these these people leading raids, the good whites of the South were terrified. One guy wrote a newspaper saying, quote, we, our wives, and our children were surrounded by desperadoes, white and black, who perhaps would laugh at our calamity and mock when our fear cometh, and you know what, I would mock. When that man's fear comes, I join in. And so they were like leading these raids but planning this larger attack. They wanted to do an attack on both North Carolina and Virginia on the same day with clubs, spikes, and axes. They didn't have any guns.

And so during this time, when you have this, these these people leading raids, the good whites of the South were terrified. One guy wrote a newspaper saying, quote, we, our wives, and our children were surrounded by desperadoes, white and black, who perhaps would laugh at our calamity and mock when our fear cometh, and you know what, I would mock. When that man's fear comes, I join in. And so they were like leading these raids but planning this larger attack. They wanted to do an attack on both North Carolina and Virginia on the same day with clubs, spikes, and axes. They didn't have any guns.

Yet, clubs, spikes and axes.

Yet, clubs, spikes and axes.

Oh I I know, I don't even know what the spikes were in this case, but.

Oh I I know, I don't even know what the spikes were in this case, but.

Fuck it, I love it. Yeah, spikes and axes, let's go.

Fuck it, I love it. Yeah, spikes and axes, let's go.

Yeah, And the whole thing was coordinated by a network of black preachers, and so later black churches and preachers and shit are going to get like basically run out of this part of the South. But for a while, you basically like get a free black man who's a preacher to go around and be like and the Lord said, hey, next Wednesday, we're gonna and then after that and then we're gonna do this other thing. You know. Yeah. Some people were caught and gave up under torture. Others were caught and stayed strong. There's like good lines about like people being like, nah, I'm you're not getting anything out of me, and like one guy was just like I'm gonna laugh when when we come for you, you know. Yeah, and uh, after General Peter, there was oh, we're gonna get new names now, Pompy Little.

Yeah, And the whole thing was coordinated by a network of black preachers, and so later black churches and preachers and shit are going to get like basically run out of this part of the South. But for a while, you basically like get a free black man who's a preacher to go around and be like and the Lord said, hey, next Wednesday, we're gonna and then after that and then we're gonna do this other thing. You know. Yeah. Some people were caught and gave up under torture. Others were caught and stayed strong. There's like good lines about like people being like, nah, I'm you're not getting anything out of me, and like one guy was just like I'm gonna laugh when when we come for you, you know. Yeah, and uh, after General Peter, there was oh, we're gonna get new names now, Pompy Little.

Okay, that's what I'm fucking talking about. That is a cool fucking name. Pumpy Little. Let's go tell tell me what Pompy Little did. Please, I'm I'm on board. Why is this not a movie? And Pompy Little was a picturesque man. He was more than six feet tall. People were shorter back then. He was a giant of a man. Honey.

Okay, that's what I'm fucking talking about. That is a cool fucking name. Pumpy Little. Let's go tell tell me what Pompy Little did. Please, I'm I'm on board. Why is this not a movie? And Pompy Little was a picturesque man. He was more than six feet tall. People were shorter back then. He was a giant of a man. Honey.

He had a like I think he's the one. Oh no, it was a later guy who had this scar across his face. Maybe one of them had a scar across his face when we had been shot by a bullet and kept going, you know, and uh, he was completely fearless. He fought with a long, double edged knife, and when he would rob people, they'd be like, we're gonna tell and give you a description. He was like, good, my name's pomp and told people his name so that they would be afraid of him.

He had a like I think he's the one. Oh no, it was a later guy who had this scar across his face. Maybe one of them had a scar across his face when we had been shot by a bullet and kept going, you know, and uh, he was completely fearless. He fought with a long, double edged knife, and when he would rob people, they'd be like, we're gonna tell and give you a description. He was like, good, my name's pomp and told people his name so that they would be afraid of him.

He's fucking cool.

He's fucking cool.

Yeah. Eventually he was shot and killed, but that man lived free.

Yeah. Eventually he was shot and killed, but that man lived free.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Then in eighteen eighteen, a multi racial, mixed gender gang of Maroons. This is the only one. I suspect all of these were multiracial, mixed gender, but I like this is the one where like specifically details that yeah, yeah, they're like and then one of the women who was among them was shot and killed in the raid. You know, they declared themselves at war with nearby society and started raiding farms and slave labor camps. Maroons would do shit like basically they like go find the man who had personally enslaved them, dragged them into the swamps, and beat them to death with a club, like you imagine you just like own a bunch of guys and then they run away and you're like, oh, I'm sure that's the end of that. Yeah, okay, Like and this is like during the time when the South keeps trying to like, oh they they're docile, they don't mind. It's just you know, like nah.