Appoja Production. Welcome to Fit Fish. I'm Phoebe Parsons and this is the podcast that proves that you don't have to choose between staying fit and having fun. Welcome to the podcast, Doctor David Cunnington, specialist, sleep physician. I have been dying to have a sleep expert on this show for years now, so I'm so excited to finally have you on to chat about something that is relatable to every person on this planet.

Appoja Production. Welcome to Fit Fish. I'm Phoebe Parsons and this is the podcast that proves that you don't have to choose between staying fit and having fun. Welcome to the podcast, Doctor David Cunnington, specialist, sleep physician. I have been dying to have a sleep expert on this show for years now, so I'm so excited to finally have you on to chat about something that is relatable to every person on this planet.

Yeah. Thanks, love, Phoebe. I hope I don't disappoint. And you're right, all of us have to sleep, so it's something we can't avoid. And that's a particularly sort of unique feature about sleep.

Yeah. Thanks, love, Phoebe. I hope I don't disappoint. And you're right, all of us have to sleep, so it's something we can't avoid. And that's a particularly sort of unique feature about sleep.

And I feel like it's such a seemingly simple topic, but it's so much more new wance than that. So I want to start by asking, is eight hours still the gold standard or is that a little bit outdated now?

And I feel like it's such a seemingly simple topic, but it's so much more new wance than that. So I want to start by asking, is eight hours still the gold standard or is that a little bit outdated now?

Well, it never really was the gold standard. We're sort of made it the gold standard in industrialized Western society because if you look in human writings and human literature about sleep, when this eight hour thing came up, and it was early nineteenth century Northern England and industrialization and then the labor movement that said we must have eight hours only for work, eight hours for rest, eight hours for sleep. And so this whole eight hour sleep is a social construct, it's not a biological construct. Humans up until industrialization had bits of sleep, you know, naps in the day and bits of sleep. No other mammals have a single sleep period where they only sleep once, and if you look at other societies, they still embrace you know, we call bi phasic sleep like an app or a siesta during the day, or multi phasic sleep, whereas it's that Western industrialized sleep is eight hours. Must sleep in that time, almost machine like, must get eight hours, you know, you allow eight hours in one minute, and you expect eight hours of sleep to occur, almost like we flick a switch off and flicker switch back on again, which just tells you it's non biological and just a complete myth.

Well, it never really was the gold standard. We're sort of made it the gold standard in industrialized Western society because if you look in human writings and human literature about sleep, when this eight hour thing came up, and it was early nineteenth century Northern England and industrialization and then the labor movement that said we must have eight hours only for work, eight hours for rest, eight hours for sleep. And so this whole eight hour sleep is a social construct, it's not a biological construct. Humans up until industrialization had bits of sleep, you know, naps in the day and bits of sleep. No other mammals have a single sleep period where they only sleep once, and if you look at other societies, they still embrace you know, we call bi phasic sleep like an app or a siesta during the day, or multi phasic sleep, whereas it's that Western industrialized sleep is eight hours. Must sleep in that time, almost machine like, must get eight hours, you know, you allow eight hours in one minute, and you expect eight hours of sleep to occur, almost like we flick a switch off and flicker switch back on again, which just tells you it's non biological and just a complete myth.

God. I know people can't see me right now, but my jaw is literally on the floor hearing that. And I feel like there's so many things like that in the health and wellness space, like the ten thousand step thing, and it's just something that we've all become accustomed to. But that blows my mind that there's no actual rhyme or reason. So then can I ask you how many hours of sleep do you get a night? Because that's going to be my new gold standard.

God. I know people can't see me right now, but my jaw is literally on the floor hearing that. And I feel like there's so many things like that in the health and wellness space, like the ten thousand step thing, and it's just something that we've all become accustomed to. But that blows my mind that there's no actual rhyme or reason. So then can I ask you how many hours of sleep do you get a night? Because that's going to be my new gold standard.

Right, Okay, let me back up a little bit. I will tell you how much sleep I get, but I'll back up a little bit. So, whilst that eight hours is purely a social construct, there is good data where if we look at large population studies showing adverse health associated with very short sleeping so less than five hours per night, or very long sleeping more than nine hours per night. And so we do know that you want to be somewhere in that window five to nine hours. Okay. Now, what we also know is if you look at sleep in population, so be it the developing world. So there's some data from Mozambique. You look at Western societies, lots of prevalence data about sleep length in Western societies, people of working age, sort of working nine to five. You know seven hours ish is about the population average. Now it's hard when you then try and think about sort of messaging you give to the community. You can either give this sort of nuanced sort of messaging about its sleep need is individualized and it depends on a whole lot of life circumstances. But you know what the media is like. They want you've got your ten second, one bullet point thing, one size fits all, and so that you get eight hours sleep absolutely fits that without people really questioning the data behind it. Wow, all right now in terms of how much sleep I get, Yes, So you know, I'm a reasonably healthy guy in my yeah, in my fifties. That's about it as close as I'll tell you about it of that my age. But the interesting thing, if I track my sleep using a wearable over a period of time, it is incredibly stable. So it's about six hours and thirty seven minutes per night if you have consistently, if you average it by week, or if you average it by month. But if you look at it day to day, it might be four hours, might be eight hours, might be six hours plus a nap. You know, across a week, there's just lots of stuff goes on. You know, I've got an adult child with significant disability. I'm on the local turtle care volunteers on the beach or often up early doing things with turtle nests over summer, you know, And so sleep is a bit of a variable feast across the week. But because it's a biologically regulated phenomenon, our body just automatically takes care of it if we get out the way very reassuringly, that self regulation happens to keep it incredibly stable. For another pro you're looking back at some data of mine from about five years ago, was the same six hours thirty seven minutes on average if I averaged it by week or by month, And so it's just incredibly stable. And that's not because I go to sleep at the same time each day or a month at the same time each day. It's just because I get out the way let my body auto regulate it, and because I'm in good physical and mental health it does.

Right, Okay, let me back up a little bit. I will tell you how much sleep I get, but I'll back up a little bit. So, whilst that eight hours is purely a social construct, there is good data where if we look at large population studies showing adverse health associated with very short sleeping so less than five hours per night, or very long sleeping more than nine hours per night. And so we do know that you want to be somewhere in that window five to nine hours. Okay. Now, what we also know is if you look at sleep in population, so be it the developing world. So there's some data from Mozambique. You look at Western societies, lots of prevalence data about sleep length in Western societies, people of working age, sort of working nine to five. You know seven hours ish is about the population average. Now it's hard when you then try and think about sort of messaging you give to the community. You can either give this sort of nuanced sort of messaging about its sleep need is individualized and it depends on a whole lot of life circumstances. But you know what the media is like. They want you've got your ten second, one bullet point thing, one size fits all, and so that you get eight hours sleep absolutely fits that without people really questioning the data behind it. Wow, all right now in terms of how much sleep I get, Yes, So you know, I'm a reasonably healthy guy in my yeah, in my fifties. That's about it as close as I'll tell you about it of that my age. But the interesting thing, if I track my sleep using a wearable over a period of time, it is incredibly stable. So it's about six hours and thirty seven minutes per night if you have consistently, if you average it by week, or if you average it by month. But if you look at it day to day, it might be four hours, might be eight hours, might be six hours plus a nap. You know, across a week, there's just lots of stuff goes on. You know, I've got an adult child with significant disability. I'm on the local turtle care volunteers on the beach or often up early doing things with turtle nests over summer, you know, And so sleep is a bit of a variable feast across the week. But because it's a biologically regulated phenomenon, our body just automatically takes care of it if we get out the way very reassuringly, that self regulation happens to keep it incredibly stable. For another pro you're looking back at some data of mine from about five years ago, was the same six hours thirty seven minutes on average if I averaged it by week or by month, And so it's just incredibly stable. And that's not because I go to sleep at the same time each day or a month at the same time each day. It's just because I get out the way let my body auto regulate it, and because I'm in good physical and mental health it does.

Oh my god. So is it something that we should be looking at more as a week as opposed to individually, Because I since I've started wearing a sleep trucker, I noticed that during the week, my sleep is obviously a lot less because I work as a fitness instructor, so I'm getting up at four thirty and I'm going to bed still around you know, nine thirty ten. But then on the weekends, I noticed that I sleep for longer structures at nighttime, but I also have naps on both of the days on the weekends, so I feel like I do actually feel quite rested if I'm looking at my sleep in a week, not individually per night.

Oh my god. So is it something that we should be looking at more as a week as opposed to individually, Because I since I've started wearing a sleep trucker, I noticed that during the week, my sleep is obviously a lot less because I work as a fitness instructor, so I'm getting up at four thirty and I'm going to bed still around you know, nine thirty ten. But then on the weekends, I noticed that I sleep for longer structures at nighttime, but I also have naps on both of the days on the weekends, so I feel like I do actually feel quite rested if I'm looking at my sleep in a week, not individually per night.

Correct. And that's part of the good and the bad with the wearables. Wearables can be very reassuring to show you that stability over time, but the bad is you can ride the emotional rollercoaster of the day to day variation. It becomes a bit self fulfilling. Oh my god, I only got four hours last night and this much deep sleep and today's just going to be crap, you know. It becomes this self fulfilling prophecy.

Correct. And that's part of the good and the bad with the wearables. Wearables can be very reassuring to show you that stability over time, but the bad is you can ride the emotional rollercoaster of the day to day variation. It becomes a bit self fulfilling. Oh my god, I only got four hours last night and this much deep sleep and today's just going to be crap, you know. It becomes this self fulfilling prophecy.

Yeah, And people get obsessed with that and they'll look at it the first thing when they wake up. And I know I can do this. Sometimes I get obsessed and I look at my sleep and I'm like, oh, I only got you know, five hours last night, And then it's almost like a placebo. I'm like, am I tired or am I just feeling tired because I've seen that I didn't have a lot of sleep last night?

Yeah, And people get obsessed with that and they'll look at it the first thing when they wake up. And I know I can do this. Sometimes I get obsessed and I look at my sleep and I'm like, oh, I only got you know, five hours last night, And then it's almost like a placebo. I'm like, am I tired or am I just feeling tired because I've seen that I didn't have a lot of sleep last night?

Yeah, exactly, And so that's part of the issue with the wearables. Now, there is a phenomenon called social jet lag, which you describe where people sleep less during the working week catch up on weekends. We don't like that so much because that is associated If you follow that pattern over time, you see that people accumulate sleepingness over time, they become more and more tired, so they never totally catch up. They're always a little bit underdone with that social jet lag type of sleep or yo yo sleepings and other terminology for that. So for someone who's a fitness instructor fitness training like yourself, got to be up doing those early morning things, you'd be trying to put a nap in when you don't have clients in the middle of the day.

Yeah, exactly, And so that's part of the issue with the wearables. Now, there is a phenomenon called social jet lag, which you describe where people sleep less during the working week catch up on weekends. We don't like that so much because that is associated If you follow that pattern over time, you see that people accumulate sleepingness over time, they become more and more tired, so they never totally catch up. They're always a little bit underdone with that social jet lag type of sleep or yo yo sleepings and other terminology for that. So for someone who's a fitness instructor fitness training like yourself, got to be up doing those early morning things, you'd be trying to put a nap in when you don't have clients in the middle of the day.

Yeah, absolutely, rather.

Yeah, absolutely, rather.

Than necessarily just on the weekends.

Than necessarily just on the weekends.

I love enough. Honestly, I think naps are so underrated. It's just unfortunate that we work in a paradigm now where it's like nine to five. You don't really have capacity to have a nap in the day for a lot of the population.

I love enough. Honestly, I think naps are so underrated. It's just unfortunate that we work in a paradigm now where it's like nine to five. You don't really have capacity to have a nap in the day for a lot of the population.

And that's where they're working from home. Since the pandemic has really been great for a lot of people I see with sleep issues, as you can have your little nap just quietly without someone looking over your shoulder. Gain, how dare you take a lunch break that you're entitled to you should be working. Has allowed a little bit more of that flexible thinking around sleep and flexibility around sleep. There's a bit we'll talk about some of the health interventions for sleep are a little bit Western industrialized as well, trying to create an idealized sleep and so, for example, one of the instructions if someone's having trouble with sleep is under those circumstances, don't nap during the day and don't go to bed unless you're sleeping. Yep. Now, napping is great, and there's really only that very isolated time we don't want people to nap, which is when they've got quite significant insomnium. We're trying to bully it into line. But any other circumstances, napping is good. But again, the public health message that comes out is there's picked up that thing don't nap during the day, and that's on realistical of five things to fix your sleep. And so everyone's about, oh, I can't nap, I shouldn't ap during the day. I'm just like no, because that develops this rigidity of thinking about sleep. Sleep has to occur this place, this time, these circumstances with these accessories, and that's an unhealthy way of thinking about sleep, but it is a very Western industrial way of thinking about sleep, because I've got whole industries designed to set use sleep products that fit on that list. If I need these accessories, or I need my mattress to be so on, my sheets and my curtains and my eye shades and my noise machine, all these different things to be able to sleep. You know, it's harnessing that fear of sleep that we have and trying to build this sort of rigidity around sleep. But if you talk to a healthy sleeper, good sleeper, how do they behave around sleep? Totally fluid whatever, Engage them in a discussion about sleep, not interested. It's just a nothing for them. And it's really interesting if I go out to socially meet people haven't met before and they say, oh, what do you do You know, I'm a sleep specialist. People have sleep difficulties, go oh, that's really interesting and are up for talking about sleep. Yeah. People who are good sleepers go okay, slink off to the bar to get another drink, and they just don't want to talk to me at all.

And that's where they're working from home. Since the pandemic has really been great for a lot of people I see with sleep issues, as you can have your little nap just quietly without someone looking over your shoulder. Gain, how dare you take a lunch break that you're entitled to you should be working. Has allowed a little bit more of that flexible thinking around sleep and flexibility around sleep. There's a bit we'll talk about some of the health interventions for sleep are a little bit Western industrialized as well, trying to create an idealized sleep and so, for example, one of the instructions if someone's having trouble with sleep is under those circumstances, don't nap during the day and don't go to bed unless you're sleeping. Yep. Now, napping is great, and there's really only that very isolated time we don't want people to nap, which is when they've got quite significant insomnium. We're trying to bully it into line. But any other circumstances, napping is good. But again, the public health message that comes out is there's picked up that thing don't nap during the day, and that's on realistical of five things to fix your sleep. And so everyone's about, oh, I can't nap, I shouldn't ap during the day. I'm just like no, because that develops this rigidity of thinking about sleep. Sleep has to occur this place, this time, these circumstances with these accessories, and that's an unhealthy way of thinking about sleep, but it is a very Western industrial way of thinking about sleep, because I've got whole industries designed to set use sleep products that fit on that list. If I need these accessories, or I need my mattress to be so on, my sheets and my curtains and my eye shades and my noise machine, all these different things to be able to sleep. You know, it's harnessing that fear of sleep that we have and trying to build this sort of rigidity around sleep. But if you talk to a healthy sleeper, good sleeper, how do they behave around sleep? Totally fluid whatever, Engage them in a discussion about sleep, not interested. It's just a nothing for them. And it's really interesting if I go out to socially meet people haven't met before and they say, oh, what do you do You know, I'm a sleep specialist. People have sleep difficulties, go oh, that's really interesting and are up for talking about sleep. Yeah. People who are good sleepers go okay, slink off to the bar to get another drink, and they just don't want to talk to me at all.

Kind Of like when you think about health and fitness and nutrition, and you see that people who kind of have a bit of an issue with their eating, perhaps they'll do all the complicated things like they'll buy the sea moss grass and they'll be really rigid and they'll try and do you know, eating windows and things like that. But the people who are have a really stable, healthy relationship with food, they know how to listen to their body and they just have that baseline. They're not counting calories, they're not counting this, they're just going with it. And I've never ever thought about sleep in that same way.

Kind Of like when you think about health and fitness and nutrition, and you see that people who kind of have a bit of an issue with their eating, perhaps they'll do all the complicated things like they'll buy the sea moss grass and they'll be really rigid and they'll try and do you know, eating windows and things like that. But the people who are have a really stable, healthy relationship with food, they know how to listen to their body and they just have that baseline. They're not counting calories, they're not counting this, they're just going with it. And I've never ever thought about sleep in that same way.

That's exactly the analogy. So based on that analogy, there's a term that's been coined which is orthosomnia. So authorexia is sort of overthinking sort of eating and eating patterns. So authosomnia is overthinking sleep and particularly with relationship to wearables. And so yes, there's absolutely a phase when someone's not sleeping. Well, we want to be proactive and put some steps in place to get things back on track, but then pretty quickly we want to back away and just trust that our body will sort it out, assuming we have good physical and mental health.

That's exactly the analogy. So based on that analogy, there's a term that's been coined which is orthosomnia. So authorexia is sort of overthinking sort of eating and eating patterns. So authosomnia is overthinking sleep and particularly with relationship to wearables. And so yes, there's absolutely a phase when someone's not sleeping. Well, we want to be proactive and put some steps in place to get things back on track, but then pretty quickly we want to back away and just trust that our body will sort it out, assuming we have good physical and mental health.

Because it's that stress thing, you know, when you have like an early flight or something, and you get into bed and you're like, right, if I go to sleep right this second, I'm going to get five hours sleep, and then you stress about it and so then it's an hour later and you're still no closer to sleep. But it's like the more relaxed and calm you are, then more naturally and easier things like that just come to you.

Because it's that stress thing, you know, when you have like an early flight or something, and you get into bed and you're like, right, if I go to sleep right this second, I'm going to get five hours sleep, and then you stress about it and so then it's an hour later and you're still no closer to sleep. But it's like the more relaxed and calm you are, then more naturally and easier things like that just come to you.

And it's really interesting. There's some nice work been done recently from the University of Melbourne that I've been involved with looking at the relationship between perfectionism and risk of sleep disturbance. And one of the subscales or particular types of perfectionism that associates most with sleep disturbance is pride in one's own performance, high sense of personal responsibility. So the same people that are you know, well brought up, take their job seriously, often early to things very diligent. Yeah, they're the ones that before that thing the next day can barely sleep because there's that anticipation.

And it's really interesting. There's some nice work been done recently from the University of Melbourne that I've been involved with looking at the relationship between perfectionism and risk of sleep disturbance. And one of the subscales or particular types of perfectionism that associates most with sleep disturbance is pride in one's own performance, high sense of personal responsibility. So the same people that are you know, well brought up, take their job seriously, often early to things very diligent. Yeah, they're the ones that before that thing the next day can barely sleep because there's that anticipation.

I guess it's that braggy thing like if you are wearing a wearable. It's the same thing if you smash out a really high intensity workout and you've got really good fitness and scores on your thing. You're going to want to put it on your social media and brag, hey, I just got into, you know, the red zone in my heart rate monitor, saying for sleep, you want to show, hey, my sleep score is in the nineties, which I mean mine has never been in the nineties, but that's something that you'd want to brag about. And I assume that if you were someone with a really type a personality and like you're saying, a perfectionist, the more pressure you put on yourself, probably further away you actually are from getting that perfect score.

I guess it's that braggy thing like if you are wearing a wearable. It's the same thing if you smash out a really high intensity workout and you've got really good fitness and scores on your thing. You're going to want to put it on your social media and brag, hey, I just got into, you know, the red zone in my heart rate monitor, saying for sleep, you want to show, hey, my sleep score is in the nineties, which I mean mine has never been in the nineties, but that's something that you'd want to brag about. And I assume that if you were someone with a really type a personality and like you're saying, a perfectionist, the more pressure you put on yourself, probably further away you actually are from getting that perfect score.

Yeah, and the really you know, it's a really nice point because we also sometimes get in our minds that sleep has to be perfect. You're almost trying to biohack life by squeezing them how to sleep that we can. And this is where sleep is really different to exercise and nutrition, equally important, but really different. Often in those domains, the harder you go, the more you do, the one percents you get these incremental gains. In sleep, the harder you go, the worse it gets. And so it absolutely, you know, it does people's heads. And I see lots of both amateur and professional athletes who are nailing the nutrition and nailing the physical activity, and they try to nail their sleep and it goes very badly because there they're taking exactly that same high detail nailing everything approach to sleep. Wow.

Yeah, and the really you know, it's a really nice point because we also sometimes get in our minds that sleep has to be perfect. You're almost trying to biohack life by squeezing them how to sleep that we can. And this is where sleep is really different to exercise and nutrition, equally important, but really different. Often in those domains, the harder you go, the more you do, the one percents you get these incremental gains. In sleep, the harder you go, the worse it gets. And so it absolutely, you know, it does people's heads. And I see lots of both amateur and professional athletes who are nailing the nutrition and nailing the physical activity, and they try to nail their sleep and it goes very badly because there they're taking exactly that same high detail nailing everything approach to sleep. Wow.

So it's just like sleep when you're tired, don't sleep when you're not tired. It sounds so simple when you say it like that. And just before we get off the wearables, I just want to ask you this, in terms of sleep quality versus sleep quantity. I think people who wear wearables will know that you do. When you wake up, you get that score of how long you were in RAM, how long you were in deep sleep, how long you were in light sleep. Is there like something we should be aiming for every night in those particular zones because I was shocked at how long you're in light sleep for right.

So it's just like sleep when you're tired, don't sleep when you're not tired. It sounds so simple when you say it like that. And just before we get off the wearables, I just want to ask you this, in terms of sleep quality versus sleep quantity. I think people who wear wearables will know that you do. When you wake up, you get that score of how long you were in RAM, how long you were in deep sleep, how long you were in light sleep. Is there like something we should be aiming for every night in those particular zones because I was shocked at how long you're in light sleep for right.

So a couple of things about that. So one is the wearables are actually becoming pretty good in terms of their accuracy about total sleep length. If you then average it across a few days, there's a bit of you know, not entirely accurate on any given night, but you start to average that across multiple days, they're pretty good at picking sleep lengths. Like I've told you with my own personal data. They're much less good about picking sub stages of sleep because there's lots of assumptions that are made some of it. They use surrogates like movement for you know, if you're moving, that's called light sleep. If you're still, it's called deep sleep. And some of us are just a bit more twitchy jumpy than others, and that'll translate to more light sleep unless sleep. So he's got to take those sleep stages with a grain of salt. Don't hang too much on those type. Yeah, so very rough and ready, as a rule of thumb, would be deep sleep twenty twenty five percent of the night. Rem sleep about twenty percent of the night. But that's very rough and ready. And again think of it as your body's going to take the sleep it needs, get out the way. One night you might be down, the other night you might be up. It'll sort it out. Now. The other thing to say about that is a lot of the wearables call that one that's alarmingly high about sixty percent of the night. They call it light sleep. It's not light sleep, it's just part of normal sleep.

So a couple of things about that. So one is the wearables are actually becoming pretty good in terms of their accuracy about total sleep length. If you then average it across a few days, there's a bit of you know, not entirely accurate on any given night, but you start to average that across multiple days, they're pretty good at picking sleep lengths. Like I've told you with my own personal data. They're much less good about picking sub stages of sleep because there's lots of assumptions that are made some of it. They use surrogates like movement for you know, if you're moving, that's called light sleep. If you're still, it's called deep sleep. And some of us are just a bit more twitchy jumpy than others, and that'll translate to more light sleep unless sleep. So he's got to take those sleep stages with a grain of salt. Don't hang too much on those type. Yeah, so very rough and ready, as a rule of thumb, would be deep sleep twenty twenty five percent of the night. Rem sleep about twenty percent of the night. But that's very rough and ready. And again think of it as your body's going to take the sleep it needs, get out the way. One night you might be down, the other night you might be up. It'll sort it out. Now. The other thing to say about that is a lot of the wearables call that one that's alarmingly high about sixty percent of the night. They call it light sleep. It's not light sleep, it's just part of normal sleep.

It's just sleep.

It's just sleep.

Yeah, Yeah, it's just sleep. Right, So Apple are taking a really nice approach to this. So they've got a colleague of minor sleep specialists from Stanford in the US. Now it works for Apple and has been working on a lot of their sleep algorithms, and based on his advice, they've changed that and they call that core sleep. So all your Apple devices, or if you feed your wearable in via the health app into your Apple Apse, it'll be deep core and rim just because you change that word and instead of it being light. Oh my god, I've got sixty percent of my night is light sleep to be well sixty percent core. Yeah, okay, that fits twenty percent. Rem ya come, I'm good to go.

Yeah, Yeah, it's just sleep. Right, So Apple are taking a really nice approach to this. So they've got a colleague of minor sleep specialists from Stanford in the US. Now it works for Apple and has been working on a lot of their sleep algorithms, and based on his advice, they've changed that and they call that core sleep. So all your Apple devices, or if you feed your wearable in via the health app into your Apple Apse, it'll be deep core and rim just because you change that word and instead of it being light. Oh my god, I've got sixty percent of my night is light sleep to be well sixty percent core. Yeah, okay, that fits twenty percent. Rem ya come, I'm good to go.

Wow, Igain, it's that like psychological placebo of just reading the word light sleep. Yeah, that is insane. Okay, So we've covered the circadian rhythm thing. You don't have to worry too much about going to sleep at the same time every night and waking up at the same time every night. But can you train yourself to function on less sleep? But I suppose this one is very specifically related to I suppose people who are getting up early to go and train new parents and things like that.

Wow, Igain, it's that like psychological placebo of just reading the word light sleep. Yeah, that is insane. Okay, So we've covered the circadian rhythm thing. You don't have to worry too much about going to sleep at the same time every night and waking up at the same time every night. But can you train yourself to function on less sleep? But I suppose this one is very specifically related to I suppose people who are getting up early to go and train new parents and things like that.

So think of it as you know what determines how long we sleep. So part of its genetic, So there's definitely genes associated with short to sleep and light sleeping. Part of it's just personality. But think of it for one of a better terms. Where we sit on a nervous energy axis. Now that'll change across life. So we can certainly decide, okay, I'm going to push harder on the adrenaline drive, and I'm going to go harder now because sleep's are biological phenomenon. You'll sleep less because your body is in a higher adrenaline state, and you'll find yourself, if you're previously had been sleeping eight hours, you'll find yourself sleeping six hours because there's just more of that adrenaline drive so it naturally wakes you. Wear Now that'll be okay until it isn't. And so people will be going for a couple of years going this is all good. I'm totally smashing it and I only need to sleep for six hours. And what they don't realize is the wheels are slowly starting to fall off. Maybe other domains of life. Their relationships aren't too great, they're a little it's snappy, their carryo vascular health, they're increasing their risk of hypertension or long term cardiovascular disease. They're heading into the anxiety, they're flirting with burnout, you know, all of these sort of things. So they haven't trained themselves to sleep less by choice. They've behaviorally switched where their sympathetic nervous system activity, or their stress response or their quartersol response, or their fight flight response, or their allosteric load, whatever term you want to use to describe it. They've elected to just turn the heat up on that and they'll sleep shorter. And like I said, it's good until it isn't. So I see people like that sometimes in my office in their thirties sleep starting to break up, and that's usually okay, I can manage that. But I see them in their forties and they've fully burnt out. They were successful, but they've either flamed out professionally or in their personal life and they're now trying to pick up the pieces and sort of exhausted and fatigued. So, yeah, you can't really cheat. You can cheat sleep in the short term or the short medium term, but you can't cheat sleep in the in the long term.

So think of it as you know what determines how long we sleep. So part of its genetic, So there's definitely genes associated with short to sleep and light sleeping. Part of it's just personality. But think of it for one of a better terms. Where we sit on a nervous energy axis. Now that'll change across life. So we can certainly decide, okay, I'm going to push harder on the adrenaline drive, and I'm going to go harder now because sleep's are biological phenomenon. You'll sleep less because your body is in a higher adrenaline state, and you'll find yourself, if you're previously had been sleeping eight hours, you'll find yourself sleeping six hours because there's just more of that adrenaline drive so it naturally wakes you. Wear Now that'll be okay until it isn't. And so people will be going for a couple of years going this is all good. I'm totally smashing it and I only need to sleep for six hours. And what they don't realize is the wheels are slowly starting to fall off. Maybe other domains of life. Their relationships aren't too great, they're a little it's snappy, their carryo vascular health, they're increasing their risk of hypertension or long term cardiovascular disease. They're heading into the anxiety, they're flirting with burnout, you know, all of these sort of things. So they haven't trained themselves to sleep less by choice. They've behaviorally switched where their sympathetic nervous system activity, or their stress response or their quartersol response, or their fight flight response, or their allosteric load, whatever term you want to use to describe it. They've elected to just turn the heat up on that and they'll sleep shorter. And like I said, it's good until it isn't. So I see people like that sometimes in my office in their thirties sleep starting to break up, and that's usually okay, I can manage that. But I see them in their forties and they've fully burnt out. They were successful, but they've either flamed out professionally or in their personal life and they're now trying to pick up the pieces and sort of exhausted and fatigued. So, yeah, you can't really cheat. You can cheat sleep in the short term or the short medium term, but you can't cheat sleep in the in the long term.

So it's more something to look at as a season like this might just be a lower sleep season.

So it's more something to look at as a season like this might just be a lower sleep season.

Yeah, and that's a nice way of thinking of it. So thinking of it in a you know, and I've told you I measure my habitual sort of sleep length just to keep an eye on things. And you know, like all of us, there's times in life where I go to you, the next month is going to be pretty tough, but I just recognize, you know what, and I'm going to sleep a bit shorter probably in the next month on average, and I'm either going to build in more western recovery or at the end of that time, schedule some time out to just you know, let that nervous energy drop and then go back to my long term average rather than of powering on. Now I've got this extra energy, I'm going to keep powering on. And that's where too some of the sort of health blogs I see around sleep, which is the you know you two could be a five am person, you know, four am person, see that you were doing things while you're you while your competitors were sleeping, So come on rising grind type of philosophy. Again, that's good until it isn't in essence, and there's really good data showing that people who are underslept with that sort of high nervous energy. When they're in leadership positions, make worse decisions, and people working under them perceive them as a poorer manager and are less likely to sort of work productively under their supervision. Wow, and so you get these people who are going, I'm king of the world. I am absolutely killing it. I'm only sleeping four hours a night. I'm smashing it. But what they don't see is all around them, there's this debris and stuff that's not working all around them.

Yeah, and that's a nice way of thinking of it. So thinking of it in a you know, and I've told you I measure my habitual sort of sleep length just to keep an eye on things. And you know, like all of us, there's times in life where I go to you, the next month is going to be pretty tough, but I just recognize, you know what, and I'm going to sleep a bit shorter probably in the next month on average, and I'm either going to build in more western recovery or at the end of that time, schedule some time out to just you know, let that nervous energy drop and then go back to my long term average rather than of powering on. Now I've got this extra energy, I'm going to keep powering on. And that's where too some of the sort of health blogs I see around sleep, which is the you know you two could be a five am person, you know, four am person, see that you were doing things while you're you while your competitors were sleeping, So come on rising grind type of philosophy. Again, that's good until it isn't in essence, and there's really good data showing that people who are underslept with that sort of high nervous energy. When they're in leadership positions, make worse decisions, and people working under them perceive them as a poorer manager and are less likely to sort of work productively under their supervision. Wow, and so you get these people who are going, I'm king of the world. I am absolutely killing it. I'm only sleeping four hours a night. I'm smashing it. But what they don't see is all around them, there's this debris and stuff that's not working all around them.

Because you're so right. For a point of time there, I feel like sleep is actually becoming something that people are priding themselves on a lot more now, But for a big period of time there, it was almost like a brag, like, Hey, I'm only sleeping four hours a night because I'm so busy doing xyz. It's like, that's who are you trying to impress.

Because you're so right. For a point of time there, I feel like sleep is actually becoming something that people are priding themselves on a lot more now, But for a big period of time there, it was almost like a brag, like, Hey, I'm only sleeping four hours a night because I'm so busy doing xyz. It's like, that's who are you trying to impress.

But it still exists, particularly in a couple of areas. So it definitely exists in politicians politics because we constantly hear about you know, we see the vision of the politicians out walking first thing in the morning and stuff. You know, finance entrepreneurs, tech startups, you know, these sort of areas that still very much have that sleep when you did Little Culture.

But it still exists, particularly in a couple of areas. So it definitely exists in politicians politics because we constantly hear about you know, we see the vision of the politicians out walking first thing in the morning and stuff. You know, finance entrepreneurs, tech startups, you know, these sort of areas that still very much have that sleep when you did Little Culture.

I don't know, I'm so anti that now now I want to talk about this. This is mostly just to cut through the absolute slur of bullshit that exists now on social media. And there are so many influencers now pushing these really complicated like ten step nighttime routines that they're saying, help them get, you know, a beautiful, deep eight hours of sleep. Can you talk us through just a basic for the average person who doesn't have to spend hundreds of dollars on you know, necessary accessories and things like that. What does an ideal nighttime routine look like?

I don't know, I'm so anti that now now I want to talk about this. This is mostly just to cut through the absolute slur of bullshit that exists now on social media. And there are so many influencers now pushing these really complicated like ten step nighttime routines that they're saying, help them get, you know, a beautiful, deep eight hours of sleep. Can you talk us through just a basic for the average person who doesn't have to spend hundreds of dollars on you know, necessary accessories and things like that. What does an ideal nighttime routine look like?

All right? So the high level summary is we've got to be respectful for sleep, So that is, you've got to allow an appropriate opportunity for sleep. But then we've got to be disinterested in sleep. So our job is to provide an appropriate opportunity and just to arrive at that opportunity in the right sort of frame of mind both physically and mentally for sleep, and then who cares what happens in that space. I've done my bit. Yes, So with that sort of overarching principle, you don't want the pre sleep routine to be too complex, too detailed, have too many steps, have oh you know, all this stuff, and that's far too often people end up saying me and my professional role as a sleep specialist. Their families go, yeah, you've got this whole sleep performance that starts two or three hours before before bed. It's exhausting. You're going to do all this thing and we're time poor. Who's got two and a half to three hours every night to be you just trying to sleep? Now, exactly what to do before you go to bed. It's a bit different from person to person, but if you tend to be a little bit more busy, mind, it's just down tools down, you know, it's giving yourself permission to clock off. I am switching. It's almost like you have to take your Superman suit off, I'm into the phone booth, come out in your pajamas, and just behaviorally, by that action, you're giving yourself permission to Okay. It's my persona of being the supermom, the person who does absolutely everything that's closed down for today and then on analogy, going to do some sort of activity that just helps me pull bring down that nervous energy. And if that's reading something in bed, if it's just watching some something that's just mind numbing, that just allows you to make that transition. Great, some sort of distractor to make that transition. And then when you feel like that nervous energy has dropped and your eyelids are starting to get heavy, turn the lights out.

All right? So the high level summary is we've got to be respectful for sleep, So that is, you've got to allow an appropriate opportunity for sleep. But then we've got to be disinterested in sleep. So our job is to provide an appropriate opportunity and just to arrive at that opportunity in the right sort of frame of mind both physically and mentally for sleep, and then who cares what happens in that space. I've done my bit. Yes, So with that sort of overarching principle, you don't want the pre sleep routine to be too complex, too detailed, have too many steps, have oh you know, all this stuff, and that's far too often people end up saying me and my professional role as a sleep specialist. Their families go, yeah, you've got this whole sleep performance that starts two or three hours before before bed. It's exhausting. You're going to do all this thing and we're time poor. Who's got two and a half to three hours every night to be you just trying to sleep? Now, exactly what to do before you go to bed. It's a bit different from person to person, but if you tend to be a little bit more busy, mind, it's just down tools down, you know, it's giving yourself permission to clock off. I am switching. It's almost like you have to take your Superman suit off, I'm into the phone booth, come out in your pajamas, and just behaviorally, by that action, you're giving yourself permission to Okay. It's my persona of being the supermom, the person who does absolutely everything that's closed down for today and then on analogy, going to do some sort of activity that just helps me pull bring down that nervous energy. And if that's reading something in bed, if it's just watching some something that's just mind numbing, that just allows you to make that transition. Great, some sort of distractor to make that transition. And then when you feel like that nervous energy has dropped and your eyelids are starting to get heavy, turn the lights out.

I love that because something that I started doing a couple of years ago was as soon as I'm done eating for the night, I'll brush my teeth, because there's nothing worse than dozing off and then opening your eyes and realizing, oh my god, now I've got to go and wash my face and brush my teeth, and then you're awake again by the time you get back into bed. So it's like, be really ready to sleep by the time you start to get dozy and tired.

I love that because something that I started doing a couple of years ago was as soon as I'm done eating for the night, I'll brush my teeth, because there's nothing worse than dozing off and then opening your eyes and realizing, oh my god, now I've got to go and wash my face and brush my teeth, and then you're awake again by the time you get back into bed. So it's like, be really ready to sleep by the time you start to get dozy and tired.

Yeah, And so it doesn't need to be any more complicated than that. And this is the tricky part too. So a lot of the sleep hygiene instructions will say, you know, don't watch anything, have no light, no no anything else. Now through in a busy world where we've all got busy minds, when else in the day do we have empty space with nothing to distract us? Almost never and so we don't tolerate h your space. Well, so if you force yourself, you're not tired. Dur in this dark room, you can't do anything. That's when the thoughts build and build and build, and there's that thinking and anxiety. You guarantee you're not going to sleep. So that's when you pop the light on, do something else, distract yourself until again you're feeling that just settled and the heavy eyelids and then lights out again.

Yeah, And so it doesn't need to be any more complicated than that. And this is the tricky part too. So a lot of the sleep hygiene instructions will say, you know, don't watch anything, have no light, no no anything else. Now through in a busy world where we've all got busy minds, when else in the day do we have empty space with nothing to distract us? Almost never and so we don't tolerate h your space. Well, so if you force yourself, you're not tired. Dur in this dark room, you can't do anything. That's when the thoughts build and build and build, and there's that thinking and anxiety. You guarantee you're not going to sleep. So that's when you pop the light on, do something else, distract yourself until again you're feeling that just settled and the heavy eyelids and then lights out again.

I love that it sounds so simple when you explain it like that.

I love that it sounds so simple when you explain it like that.

Yeah, and I just want to come back. You ask me a little while back about that sort of regular go to bed and get up time. So do you just want to come back to the get up time? Getting up at a similar time each day is actually really helpful in sinking our body clock to get a sense of right. This is the anchor time. So at about the same time each day, our body is getting a signal that we're upright, we're moving, we're getting food, we're getting light. Then that regularizes a whole range of different bodily functions and translates to improved health across many domains. Just sleep. So that sort of engagement with the outside world, which light's one of the keys, but movement and meals or other parts of that is just really important for maintaining good health.

Yeah, and I just want to come back. You ask me a little while back about that sort of regular go to bed and get up time. So do you just want to come back to the get up time? Getting up at a similar time each day is actually really helpful in sinking our body clock to get a sense of right. This is the anchor time. So at about the same time each day, our body is getting a signal that we're upright, we're moving, we're getting food, we're getting light. Then that regularizes a whole range of different bodily functions and translates to improved health across many domains. Just sleep. So that sort of engagement with the outside world, which light's one of the keys, but movement and meals or other parts of that is just really important for maintaining good health.

Ah. And then would the idea behind that be when your body kind of knows that, So say, let's use my wake up time, for example four point thirty. I naturally am quite tired by nine o'clock. Is that because my body just kind of has found a nice rhythm where it's like, we know that you're waking up at four thirty am? This is how much kind of average sleep? And I'd say I probably average about six and a half hours a night, and that does feel okay for me. I don't force sleep. I go to bed when I'm tired, and I sit there with a book and when my eyes start to shut, I shut the book and it's light out.

Ah. And then would the idea behind that be when your body kind of knows that, So say, let's use my wake up time, for example four point thirty. I naturally am quite tired by nine o'clock. Is that because my body just kind of has found a nice rhythm where it's like, we know that you're waking up at four thirty am? This is how much kind of average sleep? And I'd say I probably average about six and a half hours a night, and that does feel okay for me. I don't force sleep. I go to bed when I'm tired, and I sit there with a book and when my eyes start to shut, I shut the book and it's light out.

Yeah. Absolutely, And it's a nice example of it just keys in those body rhythms and the things we don't think about, we haven't really talked about or isn't talked about a lot in the nutrition since, but is becoming The research showing it's important is timing of meals, because again, if you think of it as the body clock drives sleep, which is what people sort of talk about, but also drives how the body handles energy. So if your body knows, okay, well, I get up at four point thirty and by five am, I'm expecting a meal load of about this mix of protein and carbohydrate, I'll be ramping up enzymes and gastric motility to deal with that. But if the meal doesn't come, and it comes four hours later and it's a massive carbohydrate load without the protein, the gas tro intestional track woudn't expecting that. It's not geared up for that, and it's going to process it differently. You're going to store more of the carbohydrates. It's going to have to push your insulin up to deal with it. So, you know, we think about that timing in terms of sleep, but it's actually important across a range of domains as well.

Yeah. Absolutely, And it's a nice example of it just keys in those body rhythms and the things we don't think about, we haven't really talked about or isn't talked about a lot in the nutrition since, but is becoming The research showing it's important is timing of meals, because again, if you think of it as the body clock drives sleep, which is what people sort of talk about, but also drives how the body handles energy. So if your body knows, okay, well, I get up at four point thirty and by five am, I'm expecting a meal load of about this mix of protein and carbohydrate, I'll be ramping up enzymes and gastric motility to deal with that. But if the meal doesn't come, and it comes four hours later and it's a massive carbohydrate load without the protein, the gas tro intestional track woudn't expecting that. It's not geared up for that, and it's going to process it differently. You're going to store more of the carbohydrates. It's going to have to push your insulin up to deal with it. So, you know, we think about that timing in terms of sleep, but it's actually important across a range of domains as well.

Yeah, that's fascinating. I really like that. I think that's a really good baseline for people to stop worrying about, you know, the set time and the wake up time and just really focus on that wake up time. So I want to run through a couple of more rapid fire things to kind of finish us off, and I want you to let me know whether these are harmful or help Number one harmful or helpful. The bedtime social media doomscroll.

Yeah, that's fascinating. I really like that. I think that's a really good baseline for people to stop worrying about, you know, the set time and the wake up time and just really focus on that wake up time. So I want to run through a couple of more rapid fire things to kind of finish us off, and I want you to let me know whether these are harmful or help Number one harmful or helpful. The bedtime social media doomscroll.

So guilty, and depends on how you conceptualize it or what it means to you, if it's just a mindless scrolling rather than oh, that's interesting and I'm off over here, and that's interesting and I'm off over here. If it really is a mindless scrolling, it can help fill that space while your nervous energy is just dropping, and then you're ready to go to sleep.

So guilty, and depends on how you conceptualize it or what it means to you, if it's just a mindless scrolling rather than oh, that's interesting and I'm off over here, and that's interesting and I'm off over here. If it really is a mindless scrolling, it can help fill that space while your nervous energy is just dropping, and then you're ready to go to sleep.

Okay, So it's not like you know how sometimes people say that the blue light emitting from the phone can get in the way of your cicading rhythm, and it's all very scientific, so it can.

Okay, So it's not like you know how sometimes people say that the blue light emitting from the phone can get in the way of your cicading rhythm, and it's all very scientific, so it can.

So light's a thing, but there's a massive variability between individuals. So there's about a fiftyfold variation between individuals. Again, it's not in clinical practice just yet that we test that, but there are some tests being validated for that, and so it will be for some people important, probably more important for people with depression or mental health disorders and people on antidepressants, but probably less critical for others. And it's this balance, right, So if not the phone, what else A long form book? Well, Unfortunately, not many people read long form books anymore. A kindle maybe it doesn't have a back light. You know you can read, but it's again long form reading rather than that really sort of short form. So if you you know, at a personal level, if you need the distractor, then the doomscrolling, and if that works as a distractor for you, great, I'd much prefer that than lying in the dark getting stressed about not sleeping.

So light's a thing, but there's a massive variability between individuals. So there's about a fiftyfold variation between individuals. Again, it's not in clinical practice just yet that we test that, but there are some tests being validated for that, and so it will be for some people important, probably more important for people with depression or mental health disorders and people on antidepressants, but probably less critical for others. And it's this balance, right, So if not the phone, what else A long form book? Well, Unfortunately, not many people read long form books anymore. A kindle maybe it doesn't have a back light. You know you can read, but it's again long form reading rather than that really sort of short form. So if you you know, at a personal level, if you need the distractor, then the doomscrolling, and if that works as a distractor for you, great, I'd much prefer that than lying in the dark getting stressed about not sleeping.

Well, I'm sure a lot of people will be fist pumping right now hearing that answer. Okay, next handful or helpful. A glass of wine at dinner.

Well, I'm sure a lot of people will be fist pumping right now hearing that answer. Okay, next handful or helpful. A glass of wine at dinner.

Again, bit of both. Alcohol has a negative effect on sleep. It has this early on positive effect, but as it's metabolized has some alerting effects, so it can wake you up during the night. Maybe it just turns out that someone's having a glass, so less than ten grams of alcohol at dinner, it's probably pretty neutral for sleep. The negative bit for me is if someone feels like for me to switch off, I need that alcohol. That's where I see it become a problem where someone doesn't have their own self soothing skills to be able to bring down that nervous energy, and the only way they can do it is with the alcohol, because then one glass comes two becomes three, and that's.

Again, bit of both. Alcohol has a negative effect on sleep. It has this early on positive effect, but as it's metabolized has some alerting effects, so it can wake you up during the night. Maybe it just turns out that someone's having a glass, so less than ten grams of alcohol at dinner, it's probably pretty neutral for sleep. The negative bit for me is if someone feels like for me to switch off, I need that alcohol. That's where I see it become a problem where someone doesn't have their own self soothing skills to be able to bring down that nervous energy, and the only way they can do it is with the alcohol, because then one glass comes two becomes three, and that's.

Problematic, harmful and helpful an afternoon coffee or dit.

Problematic, harmful and helpful an afternoon coffee or dit.

Cooke generally okay. Again, massive into individual variability with caffeine. So some people can drink caffeine late, doesn't have any impact other people exquisitely sensitive to caffeine. Most people know where they sit, and so if you know you're sensitive, yeah you don't have it late. But it's interesting. I'll see people who are paying no attention to stress management. They are stressed out to the max and not sleeping, but they've cut out coffee after midday. I'm just like, that ain't the thing. I hate to tell you, but you know that's not the thing that's impacting on sleep.

Cooke generally okay. Again, massive into individual variability with caffeine. So some people can drink caffeine late, doesn't have any impact other people exquisitely sensitive to caffeine. Most people know where they sit, and so if you know you're sensitive, yeah you don't have it late. But it's interesting. I'll see people who are paying no attention to stress management. They are stressed out to the max and not sleeping, but they've cut out coffee after midday. I'm just like, that ain't the thing. I hate to tell you, but you know that's not the thing that's impacting on sleep.

Because people love to blame anybody else but themselves, myself included. I'm totally there too. Next handful or helpful exercising at nighttime.

Because people love to blame anybody else but themselves, myself included. I'm totally there too. Next handful or helpful exercising at nighttime.

So although we've said that's bad, there's really a couple of nice papers recently have shown any exercise is better than no exercise. Morning's preferable to evening, but only preferable, not a must. Not exercise at night. And so again work out for your own individual circumstances. If the only time you can fit it in is at night, sure go for it. But just don't have that expectation that you've been in the gym, it's pumping, it's light, you've really gone hard, that you're going to come in the door, throw your pajamas on, turn the light out, and go bang straight to sleep. You know you've been in a high energy environment that's going to take a little while to come down from.

So although we've said that's bad, there's really a couple of nice papers recently have shown any exercise is better than no exercise. Morning's preferable to evening, but only preferable, not a must. Not exercise at night. And so again work out for your own individual circumstances. If the only time you can fit it in is at night, sure go for it. But just don't have that expectation that you've been in the gym, it's pumping, it's light, you've really gone hard, that you're going to come in the door, throw your pajamas on, turn the light out, and go bang straight to sleep. You know you've been in a high energy environment that's going to take a little while to come down from.

Handful or helpful magnesium or melatonin supplements before bad.

Handful or helpful magnesium or melatonin supplements before bad.

So each of them may be helpful. So some people can find magnesium supplements helpful, some people find all atone and helpful. The bit for me is, if you're finding you need to take a supplement to get yourself to sleep, you should be taking a step back and going, Okay, what's not working, Here's what's underpinning this. Why can't I get to sleep?

So each of them may be helpful. So some people can find magnesium supplements helpful, some people find all atone and helpful. The bit for me is, if you're finding you need to take a supplement to get yourself to sleep, you should be taking a step back and going, Okay, what's not working, Here's what's underpinning this. Why can't I get to sleep?

I guess it's that same reliance you were talking about earlier with the wine at dinner. The second you become really reliant on something, maybe look at why I be doing to ask you this one helpful or harmful mouth taping This is rife on TikTok at the moment.

I guess it's that same reliance you were talking about earlier with the wine at dinner. The second you become really reliant on something, maybe look at why I be doing to ask you this one helpful or harmful mouth taping This is rife on TikTok at the moment.

Yeah, and then it's bled from TikTok into some of the traditional media as well. Actually had a couple of requests for media interviews about it, which I've turned down because there's no evidence whatsoever. And you know, I don't want to get into her, he said, she said, you know type of thing. No, And when something's going to fix all ills, you know that it's really probably doesn't work, right, because not just mouth taping that's going to reduce snoring, it's mouth taping that's going to make you sleep better and be a bit of human you know, a whole range of different different things.

Yeah, and then it's bled from TikTok into some of the traditional media as well. Actually had a couple of requests for media interviews about it, which I've turned down because there's no evidence whatsoever. And you know, I don't want to get into her, he said, she said, you know type of thing. No, And when something's going to fix all ills, you know that it's really probably doesn't work, right, because not just mouth taping that's going to reduce snoring, it's mouth taping that's going to make you sleep better and be a bit of human you know, a whole range of different different things.

Yeah, it's like mouth taping. Will you'll wake up feeling more rusted, You'll have more ram sleep, You'll have this, You'll have that, Like what is it a genie a bottle or is it a piece of sticky tape you're putting over your lips?

Yeah, it's like mouth taping. Will you'll wake up feeling more rusted, You'll have more ram sleep, You'll have this, You'll have that, Like what is it a genie a bottle or is it a piece of sticky tape you're putting over your lips?

Yeah, yeah, that exactly. And it's really interesting. So, you know, we talked a bit about cultural beliefs around sleep. You know, there's been a very long held belief in western medical writing and society writing that people who mouth breathe are dirty, slovenly poor, and that's just associated with pre Victorian sort of times when often the poor had a lot more upper respiratory tract infections and nasal obstruction. And so there is a strong association in Western cultures between nose breathing and being virtuous and a better overall citizen in essence stuff. So I see the mouth taping a bit of an extension of you know, it's virtue signaling.

Yeah, yeah, that exactly. And it's really interesting. So, you know, we talked a bit about cultural beliefs around sleep. You know, there's been a very long held belief in western medical writing and society writing that people who mouth breathe are dirty, slovenly poor, and that's just associated with pre Victorian sort of times when often the poor had a lot more upper respiratory tract infections and nasal obstruction. And so there is a strong association in Western cultures between nose breathing and being virtuous and a better overall citizen in essence stuff. So I see the mouth taping a bit of an extension of you know, it's virtue signaling.

Oh my god, I mean I am allowed. My whole family is loud and proud mouth open sleepers, and I mean it's not pretty, but I don't feel I've take my mouth shut before, and I didn't feel any different when I woke up. And then the last one helpful a harmful again, pretty rife on social media at the moment. LED and red light therapy.

Oh my god, I mean I am allowed. My whole family is loud and proud mouth open sleepers, and I mean it's not pretty, but I don't feel I've take my mouth shut before, and I didn't feel any different when I woke up. And then the last one helpful a harmful again, pretty rife on social media at the moment. LED and red light therapy.

Yeah, so rather than the red light being a positive thing, think of the red light replacing potentially the blue light. So if we know that the wavelengths of light then can have a negative effect on sleep, with the colder colors bluey, sort of whitey, greeny, those harsh cold colors associated with the morning and often interior lighting. So the LED lighting we now have in our homes is that cold color temperature, and so it's probably a negative for sleep, whereas the red light is less of that cold color temperature, so it's going to be a bit more neutral for sleep. So rather than helping sleep, think of it as the red light takes away the need for the light that might be negative for sleep.

Yeah, so rather than the red light being a positive thing, think of the red light replacing potentially the blue light. So if we know that the wavelengths of light then can have a negative effect on sleep, with the colder colors bluey, sort of whitey, greeny, those harsh cold colors associated with the morning and often interior lighting. So the LED lighting we now have in our homes is that cold color temperature, and so it's probably a negative for sleep, whereas the red light is less of that cold color temperature, so it's going to be a bit more neutral for sleep. So rather than helping sleep, think of it as the red light takes away the need for the light that might be negative for sleep.

That's so good. I actually missed one too, And then this is really important. Snoozing an alarm.

That's so good. I actually missed one too, And then this is really important. Snoozing an alarm.

Again goes both ways generally. Okay, we haven't talked about it, but a lot of the way we behave around sleep is aspirational. So people will behave around sleep the way they wish they slept, even if it never materializes. For me, that's one of the funny things about sleep because almost no other domain in life, you keep doing the same thing, wishing the outcome would be different. But sleep is right now. Some people, particularly more late night types, just find it hard to get going in the morning, so it can't do the hit the alarm right now. I'm ready to go. You know, we all get sold that we're going to be waking as soon as the alarm goes. Leap out of bed. There'll be butterflies and daffodils and the sun shining and things. It only you took more of a particular vitamin or supplement, you too could be like this. It's a About three percent of the population have a body clock length just under twenty four hours that allows that waking as soon as the alarm goes. The other ninety percent of the population have a slightly longer body clock. In fact, the median across the humans is about twenty four hours seven eight minutes, So if you think about it that way, two hits of the snooze button, you're about average for a human. If it takes you that seventeen minutes after your alarm first goes before you feel like, Okay, now my body thinks it's time to get up. My cycle is ready to start. But it don't be too hard on yourself. You've got to hit the snooze button twice. The times it's negative is if you're sort of kidding yourself and you're having this constant internal negotiation of the I wish it were but it's not going to be different, and you're just stuck in a cycle of hitting the snooze button multiple times. Yeah, there may be something that was wrong with your sleep, or stop kidding yourself and just change your alarm time to when you actually want to get up.

Again goes both ways generally. Okay, we haven't talked about it, but a lot of the way we behave around sleep is aspirational. So people will behave around sleep the way they wish they slept, even if it never materializes. For me, that's one of the funny things about sleep because almost no other domain in life, you keep doing the same thing, wishing the outcome would be different. But sleep is right now. Some people, particularly more late night types, just find it hard to get going in the morning, so it can't do the hit the alarm right now. I'm ready to go. You know, we all get sold that we're going to be waking as soon as the alarm goes. Leap out of bed. There'll be butterflies and daffodils and the sun shining and things. It only you took more of a particular vitamin or supplement, you too could be like this. It's a About three percent of the population have a body clock length just under twenty four hours that allows that waking as soon as the alarm goes. The other ninety percent of the population have a slightly longer body clock. In fact, the median across the humans is about twenty four hours seven eight minutes, So if you think about it that way, two hits of the snooze button, you're about average for a human. If it takes you that seventeen minutes after your alarm first goes before you feel like, Okay, now my body thinks it's time to get up. My cycle is ready to start. But it don't be too hard on yourself. You've got to hit the snooze button twice. The times it's negative is if you're sort of kidding yourself and you're having this constant internal negotiation of the I wish it were but it's not going to be different, and you're just stuck in a cycle of hitting the snooze button multiple times. Yeah, there may be something that was wrong with your sleep, or stop kidding yourself and just change your alarm time to when you actually want to get up.

Yes, that is the point I was getting at. And I say that because when I first met my partner, he used to set like fourteen alarms in the morning, and I was like, just let yourself sleep until your last alarm and then get up, and then you're not having broken up sleep. You can just sleep through till that last alarm when you know you're going to get up. But anyway, that is a story for a different day. So then there's just two little takeaways that I want to chat to you about before we wind up. And this is very relatable to the people I think who are listening to this podcast. If you've had a terrible night's sleep, is it better for you to skip the gym and opt for a to have a little bit more sleep or just push through.

Yes, that is the point I was getting at. And I say that because when I first met my partner, he used to set like fourteen alarms in the morning, and I was like, just let yourself sleep until your last alarm and then get up, and then you're not having broken up sleep. You can just sleep through till that last alarm when you know you're going to get up. But anyway, that is a story for a different day. So then there's just two little takeaways that I want to chat to you about before we wind up. And this is very relatable to the people I think who are listening to this podcast. If you've had a terrible night's sleep, is it better for you to skip the gym and opt for a to have a little bit more sleep or just push through.

I think as long as you haven't had consecutive bad nights, I'd just get up go to the gym, but I'd be thinking about your day as to thinking, Okay, that's my uptime is going to the gym, wherein Miday is going to be some downtime, which doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be more sleep the next night. It could be some feed up time when you get home. It could be a nap during the day if you're working from home, for example, Because if you there's something that happens really really often, people start having trouble with sleep. They start giving up other activities to get more sleep, or in an attempt to get more sleep, and that starts feeding this negative cycle of not feeling well, poorer health, sleep becoming more and more important because look at all these things I've given up because of my sleep, and then sleep just becomes you know, there's more and more pressure and more and more anxiety around sleep, and I get.

I think as long as you haven't had consecutive bad nights, I'd just get up go to the gym, but I'd be thinking about your day as to thinking, Okay, that's my uptime is going to the gym, wherein Miday is going to be some downtime, which doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be more sleep the next night. It could be some feed up time when you get home. It could be a nap during the day if you're working from home, for example, Because if you there's something that happens really really often, people start having trouble with sleep. They start giving up other activities to get more sleep, or in an attempt to get more sleep, and that starts feeding this negative cycle of not feeling well, poorer health, sleep becoming more and more important because look at all these things I've given up because of my sleep, and then sleep just becomes you know, there's more and more pressure and more and more anxiety around sleep, and I get.

I guess like that living thing, like having a perfect diet, means nothing if you've sacrificed your entire life and you've got no enjoyment anymore because you just are so focused on maintaining a perfectly clean diet. If your whole life is devoted to getting a perfect eight hours of sleep every single night, it's probably going to come at a detriment to other areas of your life. And then, lastly, do you do you have any tips for trying to fall asleep when your brain just won't shut off?

I guess like that living thing, like having a perfect diet, means nothing if you've sacrificed your entire life and you've got no enjoyment anymore because you just are so focused on maintaining a perfectly clean diet. If your whole life is devoted to getting a perfect eight hours of sleep every single night, it's probably going to come at a detriment to other areas of your life. And then, lastly, do you do you have any tips for trying to fall asleep when your brain just won't shut off?

Yeah, don't. That's it? So you know, literally if your brain won't shut off and it's not ready for sleeping, don't try and sleep, because one you won't sleep, and too it'll just add to that frustration. You won't get calmer laying in bed trying to sleep. In fact, you'll get more distressed. And so pop the light on, sit up, read. If your partner won't tolerate that, go to another room, do something else until you're feeling a bit more settled.

Yeah, don't. That's it? So you know, literally if your brain won't shut off and it's not ready for sleeping, don't try and sleep, because one you won't sleep, and too it'll just add to that frustration. You won't get calmer laying in bed trying to sleep. In fact, you'll get more distressed. And so pop the light on, sit up, read. If your partner won't tolerate that, go to another room, do something else until you're feeling a bit more settled.

That is the most rational piece of advice I've ever heard from a doctor in my entire life. That is so brilliant. And then, just to finish off, what is one piece of advice you would give to everybody listening to this podcast about sleep.

That is the most rational piece of advice I've ever heard from a doctor in my entire life. That is so brilliant. And then, just to finish off, what is one piece of advice you would give to everybody listening to this podcast about sleep.

And maintain flexible and rational thinking about sleep rather than that sort of aspirational, emotional, more social norming sort of way of thinking about sing I.

And maintain flexible and rational thinking about sleep rather than that sort of aspirational, emotional, more social norming sort of way of thinking about sing I.

Love that so much, Dr David Cunnington, thank you so much for chatting. Can you let people know a little bit more about where they can find you here?

Love that so much, Dr David Cunnington, thank you so much for chatting. Can you let people know a little bit more about where they can find you here?

So I practice both seeing people face to face on the Sunshine Coast and I see people from around Australia via telehealth, and that's via my website. Dr David Cunnington dot com today you and.

So I practice both seeing people face to face on the Sunshine Coast and I see people from around Australia via telehealth, and that's via my website. Dr David Cunnington dot com today you and.

I'll pop all of that information in this week's show notes. Thank you so much for your time.