Citizen Chef is a production of I Heart Radio. Hey everybody, Tom Felicio here and welcome back to Citizen Chef. You know, feeding people has always been my passion, and therefore I have been an advocate for fighting for food and security. And yes, people come to my restaurant and they spend a lot of money to eat, but I'm talking about fighting for people who are struggling to put food on the table. Healthy food is a basic necessity for survival. It brings families together, it brings joy. You know, think about when we celebrate holidays, and let's think about the importance of just sitting around a table and sharing a meal with your family. Every night. You get to on wine, you get to talk about the day. Well, what if you didn't have food to put on that table. How would you feel as a parent if all of a sudden you found yourself out of work and you were struggling to feed your family. You know, parents are out there right now skipping meals so their kids could eat. So this is something that really I think is is a basic necessity for so many people. Um and uh and and people are struggling. So this is why I was really excited to hear some truly historic news that the Department of Agriculture has made the largest permanent increase to the SNAP benefits since And if you listen to our episode with Dr Kathleen American, you'll remember that SNAP is the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program and it helps millions Americans across the country get food on their tables. And so what is really exciting is that we have reevaluated the types of foods that can be included in the program. Americans now have, uh they can make healthier choices on what they're feeding their family. Listen, this is it's it's a huge change and and uh so I want to turn to the experts to talk about this. So today we're talking to SNAP expert Ellen Volinger. Ellen is the legal director of frak Are, the Food Research Action Center, and their state admission is to eradicate poverty related hunger and under nutrition in the United States. And they do that through research, advocacy, and by consulting with everyone who actually creates policy, but also those people who are receiving the benefits as well. They're talking to the people who certainly need a place at the table. And Ellen herself is responsible for directing fract's advocacy on behalf of SNAP, So there is no one better to talk about how these changes came to be and why are They're welcome changes to the anti hunger advocates and so welcome to the program. Ellen volunteer, Hello, Hey, how you doing okay? Thanks so much for doing this and having me on so Ellen listen. UM, I wanted to talk to you because I guess what's happened recently is fairly historic. UM. And UH for our our listeners, UM that don't know. UM, the SNAP program, Uh, the supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, which I would actually wish they would get rid of the supplemental and just turn into the NAP program, the Nutrition Assistance program. Uh. Finally we were making some headways after years and years of the benefits pretty much staying the same for a long time. UM, we finally had some big changes. And it's it's a technical change that I really thought it would be interesting for people to understand how we actually calculate SNAP benefits. And there's something called the food plan, and there's there's three three pieces of that plan. There's a thrifty, there's the low, and then there's the jump right here now because I'm forgetting what the third one is. But we made some change to this plan, and that's actually putting more money into people's pockets to purchase food. So can can you explain to us what the the what really happened to the thrifty Food Plan and where the changes are and what it's gonna how it's gonna make a difference for so many people who are struggling to put food on the table. Yeah, no, and Tom, thank you so much for having us. And you certainly are a leader in the effort to end hunger in American You were already aware even before COVID nineteen how much hunger existed in the United States. Um. And one of the pieces of inadequacy of being able to afford food and being hungry is that snap which is the most fundamental of the federal government's anti hunger programs, the Supplement of Nutrition Assistance program, as you said, it used to be called food stands. It's the program that's available to all kinds of of Americans and it's designed to help them afford a basic diet. When it was designed, the government picked one of its food plants. It has little different grades of food plants and it picked the most meager one called the Thrifty Food Plan. Just so people know. So this food plan is used for various things. I mean number one is used to calculate the amount of alimony someone has to pay for child support. It's also used how to calculate how many calories are are service members need to know to survive, especially when they're fighting. So it's it's used for a lot of different things, not just food. Well, the different levels are that's acceptive of food plan, but unfortunately for UM purposes of adequacy of benefits for SNAP, the government has chosen for decades now the very lowest wrung and it's that thrifty Food Plan that's used only for SNAP. Really that UM you know, it's only used for emergency food and SNAP. It's not what's used these other needs. But it was still supposed to provide lower income Americans with UM a food package that they could afford based on SNAP beat with SNAP benefits. So when SNAP is calculated, the government looks to what it costs to purchase the Thrifty Food Plan. It's a it's a market basket. It's actually good government puts together a set of different goods that are supposed to meet americans dietary needs, they're supposed to be within a lower range of cost, and that was done decades ago. Over the years, as the government has change things to do with the dietary guidelines, as Americans are shopping and preparing food differently, even if they're not as good at preparing it as you are, jub, people all have changed how they're preparing food, and the time that they have to do it is very different from what it was decades ago. Especially with so many working families and um to two parent working families, time constraint is a real problem. And over the years, the Thrifty Food Plan was not really adjusted fully to take into account all those realities. Instead, people who were reviewing it to see whether there should be changes to it would feel that they needed to do it within the amount of money that was spent on the on the then existing package, a little bit of inflation adjustment, but largely just basically within working within those confines. And what is so a significant about what has happened with this USDA review. It was directed to be done by Congress in in a bipartisan bill, but it's been undertaken by the Biden Harris U s d A. What's so historic about it is that for the first time after this food plan was set up, they actually asked the question, what would it take for Americans now to be able to have a lower kind of um food cost package that would be more meaningful when it comes to healthier food options, things that reflect what we've learned about changes in the dietary guidelines and what we've learned about how people shop and prepare food, and then answer the question, this is what it costs, as opposed to starting out with, well, we've we've got this certain costs. Let's see what we do within it. And that is a game changer. It's a fresh look and they should be congratulated from doing it right. So let's clarify Pea thles here. So one, uh, this was again mandated under the last truck me if I'm wrong, I believe the last Farm Bill, where changes could have been taken up by the U. S d A, you know, alatly by the U. S d A. And under Trump's administration, sunny produces completely ignored. Well, we just chose not to address at all. We don't know what they were doing behind this well, of course, right, but but we have no evidence that they were on this path or that they were going to meet the deadline. Congress had told them to get this done by two and so the Biden administration is very much on time with this. It's an overdoe when you think about the kind of reviews that were really needed over decades. This is overdue in that sense, but it's right on time in terms of what Congress told them to get done by two And wasn't that bipartisan past um farm bill. So yes, it's um it's very well needed. And I would say that you know, they looked to scientific evidence when they made the change. That's what Congress asked them to do. They asked them to do an evaluation. They looked at that. They also to I think the researchers credits also looked to the input of snap participants who frankly are as well um situated to tell us all what constraints they're under in trying to be able to obtain this diet that we would want to make sure people have the opportunity to get. So again, they they they've made up a change that's a much more realistic mix of healthier options that can be prepared by working families who may be short on time, as we all are, right, And so I'll go back to that time piece because and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that, and this is why the time piece is so important. The assumption was that if you were on food assistance, you weren't working. Therefore you had thirteen hours a week to prepare food, where I think the average household really only spends about seven and seven and a half hours a week preparing food. But the assumption was because you needed assistance, you weren't working, therefore you had a lot more time, and therefore you can buy things that weren't prepared already. Creates shortcuts and is that roughly yeah, yeah, I think you know absolutely. The the the assumptions behind the original food plan really don't reflect how Americans live today. For who the snap participant is so many now and we know now the majority is not recipients have at least one member of the family work, if they're they're working, if they're working age, yes, yes, absolutely, and and so yeah, very outdated assumptions. Assumptions about you know, your transportation, your ability to buy in bulk, your ability to store what facilities might have just very unrealistic in terms of, um, where are we now what would a modern look be? And so that's really what USDA tackled. And again we we think that they you know, they got it right. Yeah, and we know that you know, for years, if you've heard the stories of you knew that SNAP dollars weren't actually in use at the end of the month. There were stories or people who would line up the first day of the month and when their benefits got replenished, on their on their on their car, lining up at the grocery store the first month to go out and buy food because there was just nothing left in the refrigerator. And uh so, yeah, so we've known for a long time that that there wasn't adequate dollars. So let's let's get let's get to the dollars here for a second, because I think there's also something that's very misleading. So U a couple of things happened since the pandemic uh UM. Snap was increased because of the pandemic UM, but then this was an additional increase and so what what I know there's numbers out there that sound like very big numbers in terms of the percentage that was added to the SNAP program, and that percentage was was that correct, So the the increase in the value of the Thirsty Food Plan was about roughly that. But um, you know, I think the thing that throws people off when they hear the percentages is that they're thinking about a program um and they're thinking about what the aggregate spending. It's They're often hearing about billions of dollars, and I think for them to I think see it in perspective before the pandemic, before there were these temporary boosts, and is one of those boosts. But there's even more impactful boost that's called emergency allotments. It was done that also will be ending at some point. Before those boosts, SNAP benefits only averaged about four dollars a person a day. That's that little more than that. That's about what it was the mass about. Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's right. So this change is going to make the benefits better. It's a more you know, it's more in line with what the Thrifty Food Plans should be, but it is still not going to give SNAP households um a tremendous increase because when those temporary boost expire, and some of them are expiring very soon and others won't be too far behind. Then when you compare the difference in step benefits pre this scripty food plan change, you know, it's very very very modest. It's going to get them, uh, somewhere close to, you know, a little more than five dollars a day, I think around a person to day, which and again that's with a decimal point between the two and the nine. They're not a lot of zeros when you when you're looking at it from the perspective of one snap household, they don't see all these zeros that show up. And so when you've got a very low benefit and you make any kind of a meaningful increase, it's gonna sound like a big percentage. And that's because the reviewers who did reviews prior to this administration's evaluation, we're playing within that same package size that they were given and for decades never moved beyond that package size. They never really adjusted. They just said, well, what can we do within the constraints of kind of the existing type of package and what that general cost is. The buying administration did have a cost lens in the sense that even this package looks at a set of foods that are lower cost there, you know, but it's a broader range and a much better mix of healthier options, and also one that does take into account the way people shop and prepare and their times and strengths. Can you walk us through with that basket? Looks like is that's the other thing? I think there's a misconception. And you know, again you see these stories on on Fox about people buying lobster tails they're snapped dollars and things like that. Yeah. No, um, you know, people people on on a thrifty food plan plan, you know, should have um access to a range of products. But with the old plan some some of the way it worked out. Yes, she was part of the old Thrifty Food Plan, but it was something on the order of two ounces for a household for a week or something. I mean, very very little amounts on some of the things that you would take for granted would be a piece of a diet. And of course, as people's and you mentioned this Toime, as people had their benefits running out in a month, they were turning to emergency food um, trying to do other things to cope and often they were foregoing when they had to stretch those dollars, particularly at the end of the month. They're going with options that aren't the optimum option, aren't the healthier part of the thrifty food plan. They're going where the calories are to fill the belly. So we do know from the kind of evidence youth sided, but also a report that was released this summer by the administration that on the barriers to healthy eating for people while they're on snap. The biggest barrier cost of food. I mean, that is just um, you know, the biggie. And we know that when people have more opportunity to make the choice that is maybe lean need or the healthier proofs and vegetables, when it's a more affordable choice, that's an easier choice, that's more in reach. And this goes in that direction, doesn't go far enough for people to have everything they need, but it's a it's it's such a welcome improvement and as I say, overdoing the sense of what government should have done over decades. Yeah, it's interesting. I was I was reading about a program in Boston that started during the pandemic where people are actually we're getting direct payments. Uh, and of the money they were given were spent on foods. Yeah. And you're seeing that even now come in real time with with one of the really good things that government's got going on right now, and that is the child tax Credit that's getting benefits out of the households. And the early evidence that the Census Bureau found in terms of how people are ending those benefits, spending them on food is one of those big categories. Yeah. Right, And what was the cutting childhood hunger? We cut it in half, correct, Yes, I mean that is when you look at um and it's not just the child tax credit, but certainly that's the big driver on that when you look at the fact that there have been the boosts and snap benefits that have been making it more more possible for people to afford food during the pandemic. Again, these are separate from the way the Thrifty Food Plan operates, but separate boots that Congress enacted last year and then again this year. Uh, those have contributed. And then of course, I know you've been very following school meals and and and know quite a bit about it based on your own personal history that school meals are really important and cutting childhood hunger. And some of what government has done during this pandemic, which is to create a program called Pandemic Electronic Benefit Transfer EB that's the kind of credit card debit card technology that's used to deliver snap and if it's they've been getting snapped like benefits to many many households to help replace the value of the free school meals that kids missed when there were school closures and disruptions at at schools during COVID. So those combined are really helping, I mean right, so yeah, so let's just the listeners could put that on perspective. It's about thirty million children who used to school breakfasts and lunch program um, you know, per day, and when schools were closed, that money had to come from somewhere. Households didn't have it. They were counting on these these these children receiving breakfast and lunch at school. And so now all of a sudden, you know, parents had these children at home and they had to figure out a way to to stress their dollar even further to to put more food on the table. Um. And we see the same thing happening when there's you know, whenever there's a snow day, I automatically think that we're gonna have a problem here. In fact, when when I you know, going back to March, when I realized that schools were gonna be closed, one of the first person I called was actually Ellen Teller, who works with you, uh, Fractics, says, what are these kids are gonna do? And she said, they'll they'll be an emergency feeding program, it will be set up, it will happen, um. And so it gave me some comfort to hear that. More of my conversation with fract Legal director Ellen Voluner right after the break, well, let's talk about you know, the money. Yes, there's additional money, and that's great, but we're also looking at alone can people are facing it's called, you know, a cliff or you know, some people call it a hunger cliff. When it really has to do with benefits that are going to disappear once once they usually start moving out of SNAP, if they if they receive a job and they're no longer eligible to receive SNAP benefits. Um, everything is taken away once and and uh but typically um, you know, they're still paying back bills, they may behind on rent and things like that. But We're also facing a different kind of cliff right now because somebody benefits, including unemployment, including the UM the extra additional money because of the SNAP, it's going to go away. And so you want to talk about the cliff effects a little bit. Yeah, Yeah, we're very worried about it because these temporary boosts. There are two types in SNAP. One is called emergency allotments, and those have been very significant improvements in the size of allotments. For households that were already at the maximum benefit level since since April under the Biden administration, they've been able to get nine dollars more on their monthly allotment. But for households that were at the very lowest household that pre pre COVID would be getting sixteen dollars one six for the month, they've been able to get well over two hundred dollars. And as soon as those emergency allotments end, they will go right back down. Now, the fifteen percent boost that you mentioned has been significant, but that sunsets at the end of September. So although the thrifty food Planet Smith is not related to that, the fact that it will be in place is going to help mitigate UM that particular cliff, but it it's not going to mitigate whenever it is that these emergency allotments go away. And as you mentioned SNAP, households and people who are facing food and security that's not the only thing that defines them, or that they face the loss of unemployment insurance from the federal help. That is going to be really bad news for this coming labor day. And of course the rental assistance that's available UM is going to go away, and it hasn't had as good a take up, right. We haven't been able to get that out to people sufficiently. And the moratorium on residential evictions is only into early October. So these are real pressures on families and we do we work closely with a text company called Propel and they have an app that Snap and with customers women in Children program, they use that app to check on their balances for their benefits, to see what they've spent, what they have left. It really helps them when they're going to a grocery store and know what they've got in the in the thing easily. And because they have five million Snap subscribers, Propel has been checking with a sample five thousand of those households every month might be a different set of households, but a sample of five thousand of its household to see what's going on with them, and many, even as they're getting enhanced SNAP, are still struggling, turning to friends and family for additional help. But they're also struggling mightily with housing costs and debt and worried about being able to you know, pay the debt down. So these are things that are combining. But just on the SNAP hunger cliffs, those are looming. And we've been advocating throughout the pandemic to encourage the government to do what should have been done with the last recession, which is due more on the stimulus side to get us out of this COVID crisis on the economic side. And that's what so many economists have said that with the last recession, the Great Recession, some good recovery stimulus was provided, but it was too little, too short, and that they should not make policymakers should not make the same mistake with this COVID recession. SNAP can be a piece of not only providing something that people will need to mitigate food hardship during COVID, but because of its economic stimulus value, the SNAP benefits turnover in the economy. It's one of the best countercyclical tools the government has and it can play a significant role in making sure that we as a as a country get an economy and a recovery that's more robust, with more jobs, with better wages this time, and more equitable um. But if we pulled back on these support it's food hardship is going to be significantly worse in a bad economy. So again we're urging let them continue with what is working right now. And as you say, you've seen that needle come down on childhood onger when when these benefits are out there. What you're referring to is that when when people receive SNAP benefits, it's usually people who are uh struggling, food on the table. Every single book that benefit, that benefit is spent, okay, and so that goes into the economy. Now, typically for every dollar spend, it's usually uh creating a dollar seventy five economic activity because in the supermarkets in turn are hiring people. Get that money is flowing through the supermarkets, um, and so it just creates this this this stimulus effect and actually helps helps you reduce the economy, and I think this is what's the most important I want I want to actually talk about another program called a double bux program that is so important because, as we know, in this country, nutritions expensive calories are somewhat cheap, but if you're trying to put healthy food on the table, it's it's very expensive. And a double Bucks program, uh enables people that are shopping with snap dollars in a farmer's market. Um. Two, if they're buying fruits and vegetables, they actually would get a coupon for double what they just spent. So if they spent forty dollars on fruits and vegetables and just throwing the number out there, it's a big number. Um, they get additional forty dollars. Now, the great thing about this is this money goes not to supermarkets but directly to farmers, and in turn, they're actually really using the economy because they're they're buying I mean, they're they're hiring more people who work the farm, they're buying seeds, they're they're buying equipment. And so this is a program that not only double bucks for the people who are using the program, but almost a double boost the economy. Yeah, tom it you know that program varies of course state to state and how much it will double, but absolutely you're right. They snap dollars no matter where they're spent, help all along that food chain, including farmers. But you're right when it's that direct sale by the farmer at a farmer's market or there there's even community supported agriculture allowed and snap. You know, they're different ways. Uh, that is very impactful and having more purchasing power does give them the opportunity to get more of their of their food that way. And I think it's it's a it's a no brainer in a lot of respects. I don't know why anybody would not think it's a pretty popular way to go. Yeah. No, it's a great way to go. So you know, we touched on on time. But there's one thing else, that else that we're missing from this. Not everybody knows how to cook. Well let me let me say this. One of the strength of Snap, we've we've always felt it track is that it does run on the regular rails of commerce. But that is one of the fundamentals of it. Government isn't setting up its own warehouses, it's not setting up its own distribution sites and things like that. It's it's working through the retail sector, and it's using the regular EBT Electronic Benefit Transfer Technology system to get those payments um, you know, processed, and that allows people to get their food with SNAP benefits in ways that all of us shop um, much more mainstream ways. And that of course contributes to dignity and the idea of hot prepared foods, which is what normally SNAP customers can't use their benefits for. Uh. We thought that, you know, that would be important. And we know that out of New York City that two of the congress people who have been urging that very forcefully are representatives of men and spat and they they're really in keeping if you think about it with how do you leverage what might be available in the private sector, what might be good routes to get people things? Um these are by the way, particularly these are hot prepared foods. Those are things the U. S d A has had long experience with allowing and SNAP in the case of disaster recovery, they'll allow them. You know, after a hurricane if the state asks that says, you know, people are dislocated, they are not in their kitchens that may not even be in their homes. They're gonna need access to be able to get hot prepared foods, and they allow that. So it's not as if, um, these things are science fiction by any stretch. I would defer to you, Thomas, you know the mechanics of some of it, because of your particular expertise. This is why I think that you know, possibly you know, a nonprofit facility where you're producing food not for profit, where it's not the it's not the government that's doing it. I wasn't I want to suggest that the government should take over. So there's there's a whole lot of logistics that go along with this, But I think, yeah, you let the people who know how to make hot food, let them make hot food, you figure out the way to distribute, you let people use snap dollars to purchase it. Hopefully there could be a better way to go about this than you know, again to help people who can't prepare foods. But there there's a lot that's been learned during COVID that business as usual isn't necessarily the way we're going to ago even after COVID, and you know ends that certain things need to be flexible. Yeah, and my hope, and I've said this before, my hope and I think looking at what happened with COVID, one one thing that struck me is when I looked at the lines of cars, you know, that were lined up for three and four hours at a food bank, our food distribution site looking to get food. And if you look to that line, there were plenty of Mercedes Benz and you know BMW's in that in that line, um, and these were people who were solidly middle upper middle class, you know, pre pandemic, who never had to worry about putting food on the table, and all of a sudden, both you know, both income earners out of work, struggling. And so what I'm hoping is that there's a deeper sense of empathy that the average person has for someone that's struggling out, because you know, something can derail someone's very comfortable life very quickly. What time, I can't thank you enough for everything you do, but in particular, when there were efforts to really undermine SNAP over the years, really change it so that it wouldn't be able to respond as um well to crises, whether they're economic or or disasters or weaken the benefits structure that was there, you know, had those changes, some of which were tried by conservatives in the Farm bill in some of them were tried in regulatory actions by the last administration. There's no way SNAP would be as as solidly prepared as it was to kick in UM during COVID nineteen. Uh. It needs it needed more, It needed more boots and things. But as people fell into economic need, they were able to be enrolled if they applied and went through the process, they were able to be enrolled. They weren't put on waiting lists. Some of the changes people had proposed over the years that would have would have blocked granted SNAP for instance, those folks would have been on waiting lists and not have gotten the need. You know, met at all UM for quite some time. And the way the program structured and the fact that people like you have spoken up for it over the years meant that it really was a much better support during COVID nineteen. Not everything people needs still further strength that I needed all of that, but that structure being in place was vital. And I want to thank you for for saying what you just said, UM. But when you know, when my wife started her and Christie Jacobson are partner started working on a place to the table. Organizations like frack uh joel Bergs of the world, Um, really gave us an education on the system. You know, I before that was very happy to raise money for anti hunger organizations as work as a as a chef, you know, showing up to do events. UM, but really didn't quite understand what was happening. And it wasn't until um, you know, Laurie set out to to make that film that we got a first rate education from organizations like yours and also our our next guest, Jimmy Governed, the converseman from the great state of Massachusetts, who is the champion in Congress. And there are others as well, but Jim, you know, along with people like Roses de Laura and Shelley Painry are are real champions hunger. But Jim, Jim certainly has been leading that charge from day one and so uh, um, so we have we got a great education on the program. And so it's it was it's uh, it's been uh, it's been an interesting last ten years, are so. But hopefully we're in a better place and hopefully we'll stay stay that way, and obviously with organizations like yours, uh, we we do have a fighting chance of making sure that people in this in this country, UM, don't have to worry about where their next meal is coming from. So thank thank you so much. Thank you, Stay well, stick around for more Citizen Chef. Hey, you're listening to Citizen Chef, and this week we're talking about historic changes made to snap Athans. So our next guest is uh Jim McGovern. Jim is a Congressman from the second Congressional District in Massachusetts. UM. He's also the head of the Rules Committee. Was a very big job. UM. But listen, I know Jim as the most anti hunger advocate in Congress. We met back when my wife was making the film. Uh. He was was in the film and was really just just amazing. Since then, Uh, he has been, uh my go to on the hill. If there there's an issue around hunger, I usually give him a phone call. He's he's been fighting poverty and hunger his entire life. You know. He started out working as a as a Senate aide to Senator McGovern, who, for those that follow these things, was really instrumental along with Senators Dole from Kansas and creating and modernizing our food Safety Net UM way back in the seventies. And so it's my absolute pleasure to welcome Congressman Jim McGovern to citizen chef. Hey, how are you doing? Hello? How's it going? And we think it's beautiful? Is it in its own way? Yeah? Under God's heaven. I know that you have been so instrumental in in my education when it comes to why people are hugging in this country and what we can actually do about it. And I guess what I want to talk about today is we we finally got some really good news, and that is that that the the Biden White House acted on what the Trump White House could have acted on UM and finally changed the Thrifty Food Plan. And so this means so many great things for people who are struggling. Well, first of all, it's a huge deal. I mean, it's the first update in more than forty five years. Uh. And you know they earlier this month, at the direction of Congress in U s d A in twenty t U s d A updated the benefit calculation for SNAP and and the benefits levels now, um, you know, the benefit levels had been steady for years I mean there was no increase at all. Uh. And before the pandemic, the average Snap benefit was about a dollar forty per person for meal, my duck and Donna's coffee. Because more than that, uh and uh you know, we know people need more money to be able to buy not just food, but more nutritious food. And this will increase uh at a uh the amount of people get by a boat on average thirty six dollars a month, which doesn't sound like a whole a lot, but it's it's a big deal when it comes to somebody who's food and secure. So so this is this is a major step in the right direction. Let's let's talk about how difficult it is for people who are are are using Snap dollars to feed their family. I know, uh, you took the Snap challenge and Snap challenges to uh live a month using the money talent for Snap for for for your your your household food and you mentioned coffee and to me very correctly, coffee was your downfall. Let's talk about how how how you you dealt with with the Snap channel. Well, coffee didn't fit into my budget. I mean, you know, again, about a dollar forty per person for meal and you know that's what I had to buy myself with and and and you know, I had to decide, am I gonna you know, get you know, food or I go get coffee? And uh, I could do it over again. I get the coffee because it was so addicted to coffee. But the bottom line is, uh, the SNAP benefit is not enough for people to live on, and it's certainly not enough to have a nutritious diet. And I mean, I'm you know, I just finished two days of farm tours in my district of Massachusetts, and one of the things that's been really encouraging to me is that more and more farms are you know, are accepting uh SNAP benefits. More and more farms and farm stands are part of this Healthy Initiative program when you double your SNAP dollars if you buy fresh fruits and vegetables at a at a farm stand or at a farm. So those are you know, some ways that our local farmers are connecting with communities that are struggling. Well, look, we we need to understand that a healthy diet cannot be had on a SNAP budget. Is that we need to fix that because you know, when we talked about ending hunger, food and security. It's not just about filling up your stomach. It should be about you know, also helping improve your health and your well being. I don't want to solve one problem by giving you rousy food and you end up with another problem, which is diabetes or heart disease or high blood pressure. So everything is connected here right again, looking at your your feet. A global village farm. Is that one of the farms there was? Yeah, you know, I mean the woman um uh who runs it is from uh Urgent from guatemala Um. It's uh, you know, a local tribe basically controls that land. Uh and they are you know, trying to uh not really grow things and get it to people who need it. But they're also trying to teach people how to farm, how to grow things. So they invide people on the farm. So you want to you know, you want to farm on your own, you can. They also provide these these farm boxes. Is that they can help you retrofit for your for your yard at home so that you can grow things. I mean their views and everybody should be growing something. Everybody can be a farmer, whether it's a pot or whether it's you know, fifty acres of land. Um, you know, we all can do something and um, you know, and they're very much dedicated to giving back to the community and to respecting the land and farming in a way uh that respects the land. You know. They provide C C S, A S two people who struggle, um, and those people can use their snap benefits or there are there are this healthy in the Centers program to be able to get access. And so our farmers are in the forefront of of of trying to d hunger this country and trying to end a nutrition insecurity as well. Right, that's so important that you mentioned that, because you're right. I mean, you know, nutrition is expensive in this country. Food colories are cheap, and so if you're trying to feature family healthy food, if you want to go to a overs parket you're buying fruits and vegetables, it's it's so much more expensive. Um. And and yet you're you're right, and I don't want to do is is having people eating really unhealthy food. I think currently right now we're spending about two hundred billion dollars a year on health related costs their associate poor diet. So we certainly don't want to I don't want to create more more of a health issue. UM. You know this is something I heard a lot of ground with the with the thrifty Food program, with our previous guest, Ellen Folinger, who she was a great friend, and yeah she was. She was on right before you when we talked a lot about that, and UM, so I thought we could take the time to really focus on something that I know, for as long as I've known you, you've been you've been fighting for and uh and that is the White House Conference on Hunger. UM. I believe the last one was in nineteen sixty nine. Now you were were you in eight and sixty nine? To senter McGovern, No, I was an AME in the late nineteen seventies, so so you weren't out that last that last time. I wasn't. No, I wasn't. But but George McGovern when I worked from in the late night the seventies, headed up the Special Select Committee Nutrition and Human Needs UM. And you know that was a a community. It was that cut across jurisdictional you know, boundaries of the regular committees and actually focused in on how we and hunger and that conference that you mentioned that happened fifty two years ago. Um, while it was imperfect and people a lot of people would live experiences, their voices weren't heard, and some of the complexities of this country, uh, you know, weren't elevate. I mean, you know, tribal communities you know, have different challenges than you know, uh, you know, you know many of our our other communities, and we have territories in this country and we have I mean, it's it's very complexly so one glove doesn't at all. But in any event, that conference help us help produce WICK. It helped you know, produce the modern day food stand program and helped emphasize the importance of a child nutrition. It did a lot um and there's much more to do, and that's where we pick up with this second conference. And the goal here is to have everybody at the table. I mean everybody, including people who lived experiences, and it's designed to connect all the dots and to come up with a holistic plan to not manage younger but end it, but do so in a way that addresses a whole bunch of other colleges. You know. It's you know, the way our system is set up. You know, we we only talk about little sliveries of this debate. You know, at a time, you know it's all snap one day, or it's a child nutrition another day, or it's senior citizen food and security or college students and security. We need to talk about everything, and it also means that we need to look at our systems holistically and understand we need to change things, not just the way we deliver food and the kind of food we provide people, not just the benefit, but also how we integrate nutrition and agriculture in our school system. I mean, I've I visited schools that have done that. It's it's incredible, and yet there such resistance in other school districts to even doing that. They're just crazy. Kids should who learn about nutrition early on, you know, they can teach their parents, teachers right and and it's it's it's all, it's all good. I mean, I visited the you probably visited the Green Bronx Machine and in New York Stephen Rich's program. What he's done in that school um is amazing. Again, I mean, it fits for that school in the Bronx, but it could be replicated in other places. Our medical system it's so detached from food and nutrition. You want crappy food, go to a hospital, you know, I mean, and uh, you don't even have to be a patient to have bad food, you know, going to the cafeteria. But yet we need to understand that that so many of our doctors are not trained in nutrition. Uh. And if they can write out a prescription to help lower your blood pressure, you know that's costly. What why can't they write you out of food prescription? Um? So we we we have to look at everything and uh, and that's what this conference will do here. So I don't want to focus on something that you said, we manage hunger. We need to focus on ending hunger. What what we have? We have the resources to end hunger, right, we have enough food in this country. People aren't hungry because of famine, because of war, because of drought. People are hungry, not not yet anyway that that could be coming if we don't figure that that out. Um. But uh, the managing to ending hunter what has to happen in between those two things? Did to make that happen? So as I say, hunger is a political condition, we need to have the political will. I mean it's that simple, But I mean I've been in trying to win support for this conference. I've been talking to President Biden's cabinet officials. They talked to Secretary of Bill Sack. He says he's on board, and I'm really grateful for that that. I talked to Secretary Transportation Pete Buddha Judge as I need you to be on the on board on this, and he and I explain why, because transportation plays a role in addressing the challenge of getting food to people and need. We need refrigerated trucks. People live in food deserts. I visited this company in Phoenix, UH a few weeks ago called neuro If you ever watched TV and you see this, this unmanned vehicle called delivering pizzas to people, well, you know what. They're interested in figuring out how whether they can play a role in food delivery for people in need. We had to, you know, I don't know how far away that is, but we had to. We had to look at that. I talked to Dennis mcdonnal, the Secretary of the v A. He's on board because we have a lot of veterans who we're hungry. We have active duty military servicemen and women who were hungry. Everybody has a role, and the pandemic thrust a whole bunch of people who never thought they would ever be hungry of food is to secure, and so I think there's a greater awareness of how vulnerable we are. You know, you could be working and making what would be considered a decent wage in Mitchell, South Dakota, but it's not a livable wage in New York City, or it's not a livable wage in San Francisco or Boston. And yet oftentimes those are the people you know who are hungry even with their wages, but they are eligible for nothing. We talked about thirty seven million people, and so I kind of believe we can do a hellab better than that. Always always interested in how people got to where they are. You know, when when did you recognize this was such an issue? Because it was even fighting his fight for a long time. But can you go back to when when you actually realize that that there are a lot of hungry people here and that government has a role to actually so was when I was, you know, a college paid intern for Senator George McGovern uh, you know, getting no relations the interns back and they paid back. Then then they stopped paying now we're paying again. It's a good thing. Um. But I you know, I sat through many of those hearings that he had in the Select Committee on Nutrition and Human Needs, and I heard him talk about his experiences with people and and I went with him on a number of of his uh of his vissite visits, and I saw people who are hungry. And then I got elected to Congress, uh, and people started coming in my office looking for food, you know. And I've been to schools um in my district where kids are hungry. My two sisters teaching the Worcester Public school system, they talked about it all the time. I mean, I've I just I see it all around and I know sometimes we try to not look at things that are uncomfortable to look at, but it's there. And here's the bottom line. What motivates me now because I'm just ashamed, I just really am. I mean, I'm a United States congressman, right um. Uh. You know I've never been hungry. Uh. You know, I've never been poor. Um. And you know when there are people that I represent, there people go out to this country who don't know where the next meal is gonna come from, and we can find the money to build nuclear weapons. We can find the money to send arms to that country of this country. We can find money for tax cuts for you know, billionaires and millionaires. And and yet you know, we we tolerate this. You Hillary Clinton says it takes the village. She's right, I say it takes a plan. I mean, because you need the village to advocate for something, and it's this plan and we can do it. I mean, this is this is not a problem that cannot be solved. And that's what makes us so maddening. Yeah, you know, so much of this takes vision. It takes of just looking down the road and what what does Americans look like without hungry people? Politicians who have diminished the struggle of those who are in poverty. They have demonized people on Snap. They have qutot a narrative. It doesn't represent the reality. Um And so there's a lot of this misinformation out there when people say, I mean, oh, you know people around snap forever, No, they am not. I mean, you know, even the statistics from the Trump White House with Trump usd A with tell you the average person is on there less than a year. And that's why, and that's why with with the with the BIDE administration did um with increasing the snap benefit, reclculating you know, what constitutes a nutritional meal is important. And that's why Congress needs to do the right thing and pass this second Infrastructure, the Human Infrastructure Package. We can make some of these things more permanent and um, and I hope that we do that by the end of September. Jem listen, this has been it's been great talking to you and and I think you're absolutely right, UM. This is a lesson that we learned from Mary and Chilton, who I know you know well, um Or that you need to hear from people who are actually experiencing hunger, UM, and hear from them. It's not about just that people like us that are trying to to to to alleviate, but really hearing from those people with the lived experiences. But you, Laury, helped elevate that and and and and the reason why those voices are important not only because they have firsthand knowledge of what works and what doesn't work. But I think it's hard for any human being to turn away from somebody telling their lived experience, telling their life story. UM. I think I think it's a powerful motivator for politicians of both parties to actually do something. We're gonna do this. I feel really good about it, I really do. Thanks again to Jimmy Government for joining us today. You know what he says, it's so true. You know, kids are out there suffering and uh, now listen, if they weren't hungry, they would do better in school. Uh, they would be better in sports, they would do better in life. You know, those snap indgits they really benefit so many, so many people. Again, I wanted to talk with Ellen because she's been on the front lines making these changes happen for years. And you know, those changes don't just happen overnight. They take lots of careful planning and research. Forty five years is a long time, and I bet it was tempting to give up the fight. But those changes are necessary to the overall health far entire nation, not just those using these benefits. It was a relief to see those headlines. So I am so honored that Ellen and Jim took the time to talk to us and explain why so many families would breathe a little easier tonight. You could think and plan a drink so much more when you don't have to worry about whether you'll have dinner tomorrow night, and I can't wait to see what comes out of all that extra dreaming. Citizen Chef is executive produced by Chris Grasciotas, produced by Gabby Collins, and researched by Lillian Holman, and there's always a special thanks to a place at the table. Citizen Chef has a production to the I Heart Radio for more podcasts like this, and visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your favorite shows.