Hey, everyone, Welcome to the Foundations podcast. I'm your host Tony Peterson. We have a special bonus episode for you today where Ben Bredigan from on X and I are going to break down how to find birds on public land. So we are at the Southeastern Wildlife Expo right now and I'm about to talk to my buddy Ben, who works for on X, passionate bird hunter, loves to hunt roosters just like I do. And we are just going to talk a little bit about our strategy for finding birds because a lot of times you hear people say that, you know, there are no public land bird opportunities. And we're down here way in the southeast. We're in Charleston, South Carolina, so we're kind of in like quail territory, and you hear this across the country, and so Ben and I are going to break this down right now. So Ben, the first question I have for you is when you go duck hunting, Let's say you got a bunch of mallard scouted out yep. Are you usually the kind of guy who's there before first light or do you show up about three hours later.

Hey, everyone, Welcome to the Foundations podcast. I'm your host Tony Peterson. We have a special bonus episode for you today where Ben Bredigan from on X and I are going to break down how to find birds on public land. So we are at the Southeastern Wildlife Expo right now and I'm about to talk to my buddy Ben, who works for on X, passionate bird hunter, loves to hunt roosters just like I do. And we are just going to talk a little bit about our strategy for finding birds because a lot of times you hear people say that, you know, there are no public land bird opportunities. And we're down here way in the southeast. We're in Charleston, South Carolina, so we're kind of in like quail territory, and you hear this across the country, and so Ben and I are going to break this down right now. So Ben, the first question I have for you is when you go duck hunting, Let's say you got a bunch of mallard scouted out yep. Are you usually the kind of guy who's there before first light or do you show up about three hours later.

I like to find I like to find a good flight low thing shoot generally where you show up at noon.

I like to find I like to find a good flight low thing shoot generally where you show up at noon.

I'm just I'm giving Ben a little bit of shit because we had a little scheduling issue this morning.

I'm just I'm giving Ben a little bit of shit because we had a little scheduling issue this morning.

I was working on Pacific time. In my defense, a lot of stuff happens at these shows. Yeah, keep you out pretty late, make the mornings a little early. Yeah, But seriously, man, thanks for thanks for doing this. I know you know, you and I have kind of flown in the same circles. We live in the same state, and I know you're you're super passionate about the public land bird thing.

I was working on Pacific time. In my defense, a lot of stuff happens at these shows. Yeah, keep you out pretty late, make the mornings a little early. Yeah, But seriously, man, thanks for thanks for doing this. I know you know, you and I have kind of flown in the same circles. We live in the same state, and I know you're you're super passionate about the public land bird thing.

Get your dogs out there. And I know you hear this, and I hear this a lot, And this is why I want to do this. People people always say I would love to haunt x, I would love to hunt. Why you hear you know, in this part of the world, it's quail, right, there's no bob whit quail left and there's nothing worth hunting or the grouse population is low. But you find birds every year in multiple species. How do you start. Yeah, So here's the biggest thing.

Get your dogs out there. And I know you hear this, and I hear this a lot, And this is why I want to do this. People people always say I would love to haunt x, I would love to hunt. Why you hear you know, in this part of the world, it's quail, right, there's no bob whit quail left and there's nothing worth hunting or the grouse population is low. But you find birds every year in multiple species. How do you start. Yeah, So here's the biggest thing.

It's it's uh, it's a bit of a kicker, but there shouldn't be a secret.

It's it's uh, it's a bit of a kicker, but there shouldn't be a secret.

Is I go to where the birds live?

Is I go to where the birds live?

Okay, again, Like that's the biggest thing, is like, so what do you say to somebody who's like, there are no birds on the public land where.

Okay, again, Like that's the biggest thing, is like, so what do you say to somebody who's like, there are no birds on the public land where.

I live, Well, go somewhere else or so come out. There's two ways to two ways to skin the cat. First is go to where they live, go to where the best populations are if you if you're able, if you want to travel. But there's also on the flip side, if you want to stay local, like there are odds are there are birds, especially when we talked about pest in country, like there will be birds there. It is just finding the optimal piece of habitat to be able to hunt. Like it's you know, on bad bird years, there are only birds in the best spots. On good bird years, then you can go hunt marginal habitat and still find birds. But it's just depending on where you know, where are they going to live. You see this a lot.

I live, Well, go somewhere else or so come out. There's two ways to two ways to skin the cat. First is go to where they live, go to where the best populations are if you if you're able, if you want to travel. But there's also on the flip side, if you want to stay local, like there are odds are there are birds, especially when we talked about pest in country, like there will be birds there. It is just finding the optimal piece of habitat to be able to hunt. Like it's you know, on bad bird years, there are only birds in the best spots. On good bird years, then you can go hunt marginal habitat and still find birds. But it's just depending on where you know, where are they going to live. You see this a lot.

You know, I live in the suburbs of the Twin Cities, and so when I moved up to that's part of the reason I started duck hunting, because I could find migratory birds that would hit some of the ponds and the rivers, and I had to you know, I would rather pheasant hunt. I just would, but that's not what you have. And then you start to realize, Okay, well there, I'm not going to kill a grouse here, I'm not going to kill a rooster. But the woodcock migration comes through, and now you're out there sitting on your tree standing in early October and you're like, Okay, there's another opportunity happening here. And I think I see this a lot, you know, like with people who dream about Western big game, like I'd love to hunt elk, but I never will because of y or Z. It's like, well there's still hunts out there, but you you're gonna have to change like your expectations, right, And the bird world, it's easier to be like there are no pheasants, there's no wild pheasants in Iowa anymore, and I'm not going to do it.

You know, I live in the suburbs of the Twin Cities, and so when I moved up to that's part of the reason I started duck hunting, because I could find migratory birds that would hit some of the ponds and the rivers, and I had to you know, I would rather pheasant hunt. I just would, but that's not what you have. And then you start to realize, Okay, well there, I'm not going to kill a grouse here, I'm not going to kill a rooster. But the woodcock migration comes through, and now you're out there sitting on your tree standing in early October and you're like, Okay, there's another opportunity happening here. And I think I see this a lot, you know, like with people who dream about Western big game, like I'd love to hunt elk, but I never will because of y or Z. It's like, well there's still hunts out there, but you you're gonna have to change like your expectations, right, And the bird world, it's easier to be like there are no pheasants, there's no wild pheasants in Iowa anymore, and I'm not going to do it.

And it's like that's just that's just not true, right, right, Like there are they're there. Well, that's one thing I really appreciate, appreciate about you, Tony, is like I followed you a lot, like the big game deer hunting, Like you go out and it's it's all about expectations, right, you know, you weren't going out and shooting booters, but like you were successful in a lot of different states chasing deer, and it was that's a that's a great eye opener. It should be an example for a lot of people. It's like, yeah, you can go do this. Don't expect to light the world on fire just just because you went to South Dakota. Don't expect that you're gonna light the world on fire. It's still tough in a lot of situations on public land, but if you set those expectations correctly, it's gonna be a successful trip. And what's I always tell people, if you go and do it, go drive and experience it.

And it's like that's just that's just not true, right, right, Like there are they're there. Well, that's one thing I really appreciate, appreciate about you, Tony, is like I followed you a lot, like the big game deer hunting, Like you go out and it's it's all about expectations, right, you know, you weren't going out and shooting booters, but like you were successful in a lot of different states chasing deer, and it was that's a that's a great eye opener. It should be an example for a lot of people. It's like, yeah, you can go do this. Don't expect to light the world on fire just just because you went to South Dakota. Don't expect that you're gonna light the world on fire. It's still tough in a lot of situations on public land, but if you set those expectations correctly, it's gonna be a successful trip. And what's I always tell people, if you go and do it, go drive and experience it.

What's the worst that's gonna happen?

What's the worst that's gonna happen?

Like, you're not gonna find a bunch of birds, right, that's fine, right, You're not gonna die generally hopefully not right right?

Like, you're not gonna find a bunch of birds, right, that's fine, right, You're not gonna die generally hopefully not right right?

Well, And that's I kind of I kind of equate this.

Well, And that's I kind of I kind of equate this.

You know, I grew up in southeastern Minnesota, so I fish the Mississippi River a lot. And if you were like a Basque guy or a northern guy, walleyes would be a little different. But you could look at the backwaters of the Mississippi and be like, there are thousands and thousands of acres of basque cover bassie looking cove right, right, But you start getting in there and there's no current here, and it's kind of it's not the right stuff. And then you find that sand drop or you find something where you're like, oh, they are here because the shatter fed to them or whatever. There's like an advantage people in the bird world. You take pheasants and you go, I want to walk that nhigh crp and I want to watch my dog work perfectly and flush those birds when it's birdy, or get on that tripod point. And it's like, if you're on a private place that's been babysat or your early season and you have that high population, you might be able to expect that hunt if it's at if it's December.

You know, I grew up in southeastern Minnesota, so I fish the Mississippi River a lot. And if you were like a Basque guy or a northern guy, walleyes would be a little different. But you could look at the backwaters of the Mississippi and be like, there are thousands and thousands of acres of basque cover bassie looking cove right, right, But you start getting in there and there's no current here, and it's kind of it's not the right stuff. And then you find that sand drop or you find something where you're like, oh, they are here because the shatter fed to them or whatever. There's like an advantage people in the bird world. You take pheasants and you go, I want to walk that nhigh crp and I want to watch my dog work perfectly and flush those birds when it's birdy, or get on that tripod point. And it's like, if you're on a private place that's been babysat or your early season and you have that high population, you might be able to expect that hunt if it's at if it's December.

That's not going to be your reality in most situations, right.

That's not going to be your reality in most situations, right.

So it's a matter of people think that they're going to go out there. Their expectation is that I'm going to go out there because you hunt pheasants this way in this cover.

So it's a matter of people think that they're going to go out there. Their expectation is that I'm going to go out there because you hunt pheasants this way in this cover.

Yeah, but those pheasants that live.

Yeah, but those pheasants that live.

That way and that cover are dead, and so you have to go, Okay, my hunt is going to be different now, But it doesn't mean that they're not there. Yeah, just means that they're not gonna be there where it's easy.

That way and that cover are dead, and so you have to go, Okay, my hunt is going to be different now, But it doesn't mean that they're not there. Yeah, just means that they're not gonna be there where it's easy.

Well.

Well.

And the other thing too, is like they might be there, but it's a situation that doesn't yield itself well for you being able to get on them and shoot them.

And the other thing too, is like they might be there, but it's a situation that doesn't yield itself well for you being able to get on them and shoot them.

Right.

Right.

Sure, they're certainly utilizing maybe it's like early successional habitat, but the problem is is it's thin, it's short, They're gonna be spooky, they're gonna run, and where are they gonna run to or fly to?

Sure, they're certainly utilizing maybe it's like early successional habitat, but the problem is is it's thin, it's short, They're gonna be spooky, they're gonna run, and where are they gonna run to or fly to?

The cattails? Right? And that's where you got to play with them in a lot of situations, right.

The cattails? Right? And that's where you got to play with them in a lot of situations, right.

And that's you know, I always tell people we were talking right before this, you know, like my my, the closest thing to dying and going to heaven for me right now is walking into a giant cat tail slew in the late season because I know there's enough birds in there to work. Whether I'm gonna walk out.

And that's you know, I always tell people we were talking right before this, you know, like my my, the closest thing to dying and going to heaven for me right now is walking into a giant cat tail slew in the late season because I know there's enough birds in there to work. Whether I'm gonna walk out.

With a limit or not.

With a limit or not.

I know my dog is gonna be bloody and it's gonna be a it's you're gonna feel like you did something. But I I always tell people like we pull into parking areas and we'll see people leaving and you can still look out there, and if it's the right cover and you know how to read it, you're like, there's multiple limits here.

I know my dog is gonna be bloody and it's gonna be a it's you're gonna feel like you did something. But I I always tell people like we pull into parking areas and we'll see people leaving and you can still look out there, and if it's the right cover and you know how to read it, you're like, there's multiple limits here.

Still, I just need to solve for that.

Still, I just need to solve for that.

And so instead of going and walking around the edge like the last guy did and all the birds got pushed in the middle, or you know, you think about I use coming from the space that I come from. I use on X for white tail hunting and western hunting, religiously turkey haunting trips. What I didn't realize was how how I had started using it just to find parcels right Like, I'm like, okay, well I could peasant hunt this three twenty or this section or whatever. But you start toggling between layers and seeing low land and then looking at it, you know, like on the top of a layer, and then looking at it on you know, the hybrid layer or whatever and seeing, okay, now it looks like this is mostly this, but in the back corner there's a huge kattoo slew or something lower where those birds are going to be, and you can start to be targeted instead of burning yourself out and burning your dog out. And I think a lot of people do that where they're like, I'm just gonna accept that this is gonna suck and not be good instead of going like, okay, well, if you have X amount of physical capital and you're gonna burn it on the grass hunt where they're not gonna be you could go hunt that cattail salu that's in the back corner and probably have a better chance, or go hit that vein of willows or dogwood or whatever and.

And so instead of going and walking around the edge like the last guy did and all the birds got pushed in the middle, or you know, you think about I use coming from the space that I come from. I use on X for white tail hunting and western hunting, religiously turkey haunting trips. What I didn't realize was how how I had started using it just to find parcels right Like, I'm like, okay, well I could peasant hunt this three twenty or this section or whatever. But you start toggling between layers and seeing low land and then looking at it, you know, like on the top of a layer, and then looking at it on you know, the hybrid layer or whatever and seeing, okay, now it looks like this is mostly this, but in the back corner there's a huge kattoo slew or something lower where those birds are going to be, and you can start to be targeted instead of burning yourself out and burning your dog out. And I think a lot of people do that where they're like, I'm just gonna accept that this is gonna suck and not be good instead of going like, okay, well, if you have X amount of physical capital and you're gonna burn it on the grass hunt where they're not gonna be you could go hunt that cattail salu that's in the back corner and probably have a better chance, or go hit that vein of willows or dogwood or whatever and.

Just just make it happen. Yeah.

Just just make it happen. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean I applaud you for going and busting cattails. My like, my, uh, my technique is a little different because I absolutely hate just marching through Like that sounds like my hell, So that is very fun that you're like I love this.

Yeah, I mean I applaud you for going and busting cattails. My like, my, uh, my technique is a little different because I absolutely hate just marching through Like that sounds like my hell, So that is very fun that you're like I love this.

That's cool.

That's cool.

But yeah, like the biggest thing is being successful. Whether it's quail, whether it's pheasants, whether it's X y Z bird species. The people that I find that are good at scouting are people that can understand aerial imagery and translate to what that looks like on the ground, right that like that period, like if I could you look at a map and you're like, oh, that's you know, that looks like some cattails next to some thick grass. Okay, here's you know, here's some like a little shelter belt next to it. Okay, the grass gets a little thicker, grass gets a little thicker, and they can you can just quickly look at a map and say, oh, yeah, that'll be a good spot, right.

But yeah, like the biggest thing is being successful. Whether it's quail, whether it's pheasants, whether it's X y Z bird species. The people that I find that are good at scouting are people that can understand aerial imagery and translate to what that looks like on the ground, right that like that period, like if I could you look at a map and you're like, oh, that's you know, that looks like some cattails next to some thick grass. Okay, here's you know, here's some like a little shelter belt next to it. Okay, the grass gets a little thicker, grass gets a little thicker, and they can you can just quickly look at a map and say, oh, yeah, that'll be a good spot, right.

That's the that's the biggest thing, And that's that's something we preach on the on the white tail side specifically. A lot is like, you know, if you're winter scouting and you find something, look at what it looks like, so you can repeat that pattern. When you draw that, I would tag and it one of the one of the places that I think that that's most valuable. So I talk a lot about pheasants because I love it, and I know you do. But when you think about the big wood stuff, whether you're in uh, you know, northern Michigan, or you're in some of these swamps down here somewhere and you have some level of timber activity and you have some level of true swamp edge, you know, maybe where you'll have your woodcock or whatever, when you start, when you start to plan your routes around that stuff instead of just like, okay, I'm gonna walk the two track that literally everybody walks, right, and those dumb grouse have been shot out since September twentieth. And you start to do that, and you go, okay, well I flushed three birds in a row on this walk. Why are you on that soft edge? Was there timber?

That's the that's the biggest thing, And that's that's something we preach on the on the white tail side specifically. A lot is like, you know, if you're winter scouting and you find something, look at what it looks like, so you can repeat that pattern. When you draw that, I would tag and it one of the one of the places that I think that that's most valuable. So I talk a lot about pheasants because I love it, and I know you do. But when you think about the big wood stuff, whether you're in uh, you know, northern Michigan, or you're in some of these swamps down here somewhere and you have some level of timber activity and you have some level of true swamp edge, you know, maybe where you'll have your woodcock or whatever, when you start, when you start to plan your routes around that stuff instead of just like, okay, I'm gonna walk the two track that literally everybody walks, right, and those dumb grouse have been shot out since September twentieth. And you start to do that, and you go, okay, well I flushed three birds in a row on this walk. Why are you on that soft edge? Was there timber?

You know? Did they clear cut this seven years ago? Like what are you working with?

You know? Did they clear cut this seven years ago? Like what are you working with?

Because as soon as you start putting those pieces together, You're like, I'm not wasting time anymore.

Because as soon as you start putting those pieces together, You're like, I'm not wasting time anymore.

Yeah, Like I'm I have.

Yeah, Like I'm I have.

A calculated route and I know the wind, and so I'm like, well I can swoop down here find some woodcock, or there should be grouse on this route. And man, you start putting pieces like patterns like that together, so fun.

A calculated route and I know the wind, and so I'm like, well I can swoop down here find some woodcock, or there should be grouse on this route. And man, you start putting pieces like patterns like that together, so fun.

Yeah, and and and to that point, it's like, you know, you talk about whether it's a big marsh or a big woods. It's those nuances that often make a difference, like, oh, this is just a giant patch of woods. It's like no, no, Like if you move a bird, I mean I do it a lot with fishing too. It's like why is that bird here?

Yeah, and and and to that point, it's like, you know, you talk about whether it's a big marsh or a big woods. It's those nuances that often make a difference, like, oh, this is just a giant patch of woods. It's like no, no, Like if you move a bird, I mean I do it a lot with fishing too. It's like why is that bird here?

Right?

Right?

Like, open up its crop, look at why it's here, Especially in the case with the grouse. I think grouse are much more multi dimensional than a pheasant. Like pheasant's like you know where they're gonna be, but gross can be a bit of a game. But yeah, like figure out stop look around and say, hey, why is this bird here right now? And then go replicate that. So that's why I preach like an onyx to go put a pin. It's like if you shoot a bird, put a pin. So then in the moment it's hard to you know, it's like you're fired up, you want to go hunt birds like I'm I'm blowing and going when I'm hunting, but I'll always drop a pin on the spot I kill a bird, because then I'll take a step back, like after the hunt or this time of the year when it's you know, not a lot going on, and I'll look back and say like, oh, like start to put together patterns and start to hone in and get better at finding birds versus just like oh that was fun shot birds here. It's like the why behind it will help make you a better bird hunter huge, And that's I think that that.

Like, open up its crop, look at why it's here, Especially in the case with the grouse. I think grouse are much more multi dimensional than a pheasant. Like pheasant's like you know where they're gonna be, but gross can be a bit of a game. But yeah, like figure out stop look around and say, hey, why is this bird here right now? And then go replicate that. So that's why I preach like an onyx to go put a pin. It's like if you shoot a bird, put a pin. So then in the moment it's hard to you know, it's like you're fired up, you want to go hunt birds like I'm I'm blowing and going when I'm hunting, but I'll always drop a pin on the spot I kill a bird, because then I'll take a step back, like after the hunt or this time of the year when it's you know, not a lot going on, and I'll look back and say like, oh, like start to put together patterns and start to hone in and get better at finding birds versus just like oh that was fun shot birds here. It's like the why behind it will help make you a better bird hunter huge, And that's I think that that.

I think that a lot of people look at bird hunting with their dogs sort of like a lot of Western hunters look at like elk hunting like I'm going to walk down my opportunity. I'm going to go find it, and it's I don't need a bunch of inputs, you know, Like on the white sail side, we're obsessed with like the setup right right, like is it the conditions?

I think that a lot of people look at bird hunting with their dogs sort of like a lot of Western hunters look at like elk hunting like I'm going to walk down my opportunity. I'm going to go find it, and it's I don't need a bunch of inputs, you know, Like on the white sail side, we're obsessed with like the setup right right, like is it the conditions?

Is it the spot?

Is it the spot?

Like is it what where are they at seasonally? And you know, like Western hunting, you're just like I'm gonna go out and wait for one to bugle or spot one in a meadow. Bird hunters do that a lot where they're like, well, I just like walking through this spot, So I'm going to just go do this regardless of time of day, you know, time of season, right, is it a Saturday afternoon or is it a Tuesday morning? And I'll tell you what I got a lesson last year. I do a lot of I do more early season grouse hunting than I ever have because I've been over in northern Wisconsin a lot the last few years with my daughters. Yeah, and that the gray dogwood thing, you know, I've been around gray dog woods. They're all over that kind of region. But my daughter drew a bear tag last year and so we were over there just before the deer and the grouse season opened up, baiting bears and hunting them, and I had I'm not a good bear hunter, but I had this bear that was really and I'm like, God, I hope this one sticks right, And I pulled her out of school. I was so confident that bear was going to come in. We hunted, it didn't come in, and I go, so it must have known we were there, right, Like, I got to fill in the blanks.

Like is it what where are they at seasonally? And you know, like Western hunting, you're just like I'm gonna go out and wait for one to bugle or spot one in a meadow. Bird hunters do that a lot where they're like, well, I just like walking through this spot, So I'm going to just go do this regardless of time of day, you know, time of season, right, is it a Saturday afternoon or is it a Tuesday morning? And I'll tell you what I got a lesson last year. I do a lot of I do more early season grouse hunting than I ever have because I've been over in northern Wisconsin a lot the last few years with my daughters. Yeah, and that the gray dogwood thing, you know, I've been around gray dog woods. They're all over that kind of region. But my daughter drew a bear tag last year and so we were over there just before the deer and the grouse season opened up, baiting bears and hunting them, and I had I'm not a good bear hunter, but I had this bear that was really and I'm like, God, I hope this one sticks right, And I pulled her out of school. I was so confident that bear was going to come in. We hunted, it didn't come in, and I go, so it must have known we were there, right, Like, I got to fill in the blanks.

Well.

Well.

The next that night, I told my daughter, I said, this bear's been coming in randomly all day long.

The next that night, I told my daughter, I said, this bear's been coming in randomly all day long.

Let's go do an all day bear sit. See.

Let's go do an all day bear sit. See.

Yeah, she killed that bear at noon, really, and that bear was full, I mean full of gray dogwood berries. And so I was like, if this is a valuable enough food source today to keep a bear from coming into a pile of doughnut king and gummy bears and shit, then you're like, if you're a grouse, if you're a one pound bird out there, that is what you're going to do every day until that food source is gone, right, And so, like you said, if you're out there and you're like I got you know, I'm flushing birds here there or whatever, I kill one and you open it up and you see those white berries in there because they're ripe, Like, there's your pattern.

Yeah, she killed that bear at noon, really, and that bear was full, I mean full of gray dogwood berries. And so I was like, if this is a valuable enough food source today to keep a bear from coming into a pile of doughnut king and gummy bears and shit, then you're like, if you're a grouse, if you're a one pound bird out there, that is what you're going to do every day until that food source is gone, right, And so, like you said, if you're out there and you're like I got you know, I'm flushing birds here there or whatever, I kill one and you open it up and you see those white berries in there because they're ripe, Like, there's your pattern.

Where are those Where is that food source? Damn? And I love that shit. Yeah, that is super interesting.

Where are those Where is that food source? Damn? And I love that shit. Yeah, that is super interesting.

Yeah, because it's like that's a good point, Like I never thought about that. This year was a we had a quite a bumper crop for acorns right in a lot of the state, right right, and this year, more than ever I have seen. I saw grouse with five six whole acorns in their crop and early on in the year, and it was like, at first it was like, oh, this is interesting, Like whatever I shot this, girls, that's got a bunch of acorns in it. But like it happened consistently, and so we actually spent some time up up in the northeast part of the state where there oak trees are not super common. But after seeing this all year, it was like, this was later in the season, I'm gonna go and find oak trees. And it was funny because generally oaks are not gonna be a preferred species for grouse. Generally, you know it's you're looking for that stem density. But I turned on I think it was a oak producing or the acorn producing oaks layer, and I was like, I'm just gonna try this. I'm gonna like, I don't care what what the cover looks like, but I would run my dog in that northeast or in the northeast region where there's not very many oaks, I would go and find those oaks, and it seemingly didn't matter what the cover looked like, right, and there would be Now whether they would hold or not was a different story, but there'd be grouse there, right.

Yeah, because it's like that's a good point, Like I never thought about that. This year was a we had a quite a bumper crop for acorns right in a lot of the state, right right, and this year, more than ever I have seen. I saw grouse with five six whole acorns in their crop and early on in the year, and it was like, at first it was like, oh, this is interesting, Like whatever I shot this, girls, that's got a bunch of acorns in it. But like it happened consistently, and so we actually spent some time up up in the northeast part of the state where there oak trees are not super common. But after seeing this all year, it was like, this was later in the season, I'm gonna go and find oak trees. And it was funny because generally oaks are not gonna be a preferred species for grouse. Generally, you know it's you're looking for that stem density. But I turned on I think it was a oak producing or the acorn producing oaks layer, and I was like, I'm just gonna try this. I'm gonna like, I don't care what what the cover looks like, but I would run my dog in that northeast or in the northeast region where there's not very many oaks, I would go and find those oaks, and it seemingly didn't matter what the cover looked like, right, and there would be Now whether they would hold or not was a different story, but there'd be grouse there, right.

So that's I mean.

So that's I mean.

One of the things that I've noticed I see this a lot with grouse is when you spend a lot of time in tree stands, like in the big woods, you see them doing things like I think people have you kind of alluded to this earlier, Like I think people have this idea that rough grouse specifically don't really cover a lot of ground, you know, Oh, they don't run, like, they don't do a lot of these things that we think like people say they don't do, which is they do all of those things, and often when there's a food source like that, Like I noticed this last year when I was hunting in northern Wisconsin. One of the spots I set up on this huge chunk of public land, just like.

One of the things that I've noticed I see this a lot with grouse is when you spend a lot of time in tree stands, like in the big woods, you see them doing things like I think people have you kind of alluded to this earlier, Like I think people have this idea that rough grouse specifically don't really cover a lot of ground, you know, Oh, they don't run, like, they don't do a lot of these things that we think like people say they don't do, which is they do all of those things, and often when there's a food source like that, Like I noticed this last year when I was hunting in northern Wisconsin. One of the spots I set up on this huge chunk of public land, just like.

Miles of big woods.

Miles of big woods.

I had grouse flying into a tree not very far away from me, where it was like you would see them coming through the woods and they would land in their feed and they would.

I had grouse flying into a tree not very far away from me, where it was like you would see them coming through the woods and they would land in their feed and they would.

Fly back out.

Fly back out.

Interesting, and I've seen that in different I've seen that sitting because you do like an all day sit. You just notice like they're not even walking in a lot of times where you'd be like, oh, they're picking along. They're like, there's my destination food source going there. I'm going there, and then I'm going to leave and go back to something that shit's so valuable.

Interesting, and I've seen that in different I've seen that sitting because you do like an all day sit. You just notice like they're not even walking in a lot of times where you'd be like, oh, they're picking along. They're like, there's my destination food source going there. I'm going there, and then I'm going to leave and go back to something that shit's so valuable.

Oh, that's really interesting, especially especially with gross, which are so multifaceted. That's like another situ or another situation set up that works well for pheasants, grows x y Z games, bird species is finding that mosaic of cover where there are a lot of different parts all together in one area. Because yeah, with gross, like I mean, I haven't There's a few people I know that have like figured out their biologists, like they understand I have not like figured out the game. So it's like I'm gonna put myself in an area where there are pines, there's aspens, there's you know, there's cover if it rains, and I'm gonna put myself in those areas where there's the most diversity of cover in one area, because at some point I'm gonna stumble across something, or my dog isn't gonna go point something. Same thing for pheasants, cattails, short grass, long grass, crops, like everything in one area. You increase your odds of finding something just by happenstance because there's so many types of cover.

Oh, that's really interesting, especially especially with gross, which are so multifaceted. That's like another situ or another situation set up that works well for pheasants, grows x y Z games, bird species is finding that mosaic of cover where there are a lot of different parts all together in one area. Because yeah, with gross, like I mean, I haven't There's a few people I know that have like figured out their biologists, like they understand I have not like figured out the game. So it's like I'm gonna put myself in an area where there are pines, there's aspens, there's you know, there's cover if it rains, and I'm gonna put myself in those areas where there's the most diversity of cover in one area, because at some point I'm gonna stumble across something, or my dog isn't gonna go point something. Same thing for pheasants, cattails, short grass, long grass, crops, like everything in one area. You increase your odds of finding something just by happenstance because there's so many types of cover.

Well, that's so that's a really that's a good point because a lot of times we talk about these like very specific incidences where you're like, I saw these animals do this thing specifically, and so I think people take that away and they're like, well, I gotta go out and find that lone tree in the big woods that's dropping acorns.

Well, that's so that's a really that's a good point because a lot of times we talk about these like very specific incidences where you're like, I saw these animals do this thing specifically, and so I think people take that away and they're like, well, I gotta go out and find that lone tree in the big woods that's dropping acorns.

It's not like that.

It's not like that.

No, it's like if you I mean, I think one of the most basic rules to follow with this, and it's it kind of bleeds into almost all of my hunting and fishing is edges matter.

No, it's like if you I mean, I think one of the most basic rules to follow with this, and it's it kind of bleeds into almost all of my hunting and fishing is edges matter.

Yes, hard edges, soft edges.

Yes, hard edges, soft edges.

Hard edges are easiest to see, but soft edges, like when you when you wade into or let's say this that you stand back and look at a cattail slop and it's you know, one hundred acres of cattails. It looks like mono haabitat from here to the end. And then you wade in there and a lot of it is just sucks, but one part will be blown down this way because of the way the hills are in the distance and the winds came through it whatever time. And then there's a you know, there's a ditch and so there's like that sawgrass mixed in there, and then you get inside of it, and then for some reason it's wetter or dryer, and there's a soft edge in there that might have you know, like a little plump thicket going through there, and all of a sudden, instead of just wading into nothingness and being like I'm just gonna, you know, gorilla warfare my way through you know, three hours of cat tail, you're like, I, I literally can see the route I should probably take because I'm either gonna hit those hard edges or like hardsh edges where they're gonna stop and wait for me, yeah, or they're just going to be there because there's multiple types of cover, not just the geothermal cover, not just the overhead cover, the brushy berry stuff and you so you don't have to have like that knowledge where you're like, I know they eat this on this day and this barometric pressure right on down the line. You can just be like, I know that they are critters who like an edge, and I can see that and I can structure my route to it.

Hard edges are easiest to see, but soft edges, like when you when you wade into or let's say this that you stand back and look at a cattail slop and it's you know, one hundred acres of cattails. It looks like mono haabitat from here to the end. And then you wade in there and a lot of it is just sucks, but one part will be blown down this way because of the way the hills are in the distance and the winds came through it whatever time. And then there's a you know, there's a ditch and so there's like that sawgrass mixed in there, and then you get inside of it, and then for some reason it's wetter or dryer, and there's a soft edge in there that might have you know, like a little plump thicket going through there, and all of a sudden, instead of just wading into nothingness and being like I'm just gonna, you know, gorilla warfare my way through you know, three hours of cat tail, you're like, I, I literally can see the route I should probably take because I'm either gonna hit those hard edges or like hardsh edges where they're gonna stop and wait for me, yeah, or they're just going to be there because there's multiple types of cover, not just the geothermal cover, not just the overhead cover, the brushy berry stuff and you so you don't have to have like that knowledge where you're like, I know they eat this on this day and this barometric pressure right on down the line. You can just be like, I know that they are critters who like an edge, and I can see that and I can structure my route to it.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.

It's like, yeah, tak taking that step back and this is like, yeah, touching on multiple points we talked about, but take a step back, look at like why, like think of a why are the birds gonna be in this area? It's like, well, to your point, if it's if it's a big hundred acre cattail slew, yeah, like that's a lot of ground to cover. So I mean my approach is I am very like I will not sit and beat areas up in terms of like if there's a hundred your cattail slu like, I am not gonna walk through it.

It's like, yeah, tak taking that step back and this is like, yeah, touching on multiple points we talked about, but take a step back, look at like why, like think of a why are the birds gonna be in this area? It's like, well, to your point, if it's if it's a big hundred acre cattail slew, yeah, like that's a lot of ground to cover. So I mean my approach is I am very like I will not sit and beat areas up in terms of like if there's a hundred your cattail slu like, I am not gonna walk through it.

I'm gonna I'm gonna go and pick apart right the key areas.

I'm gonna I'm gonna go and pick apart right the key areas.

I'm gonna go to the next spot, pick apart the key areas, go to the next spot versus I don't walk and cover the entire thing. I'm just it's like a power fishing, like go to the best areas, But why are those birds in that area because there a crop field on this side of the Like if there's a cropfield, say on the left side of the swamp, well the oddside of the birds are probably gonna be there, especially if it's you know, on a backside where there's less pressure. I'm gonna go walk those key areas and then then go right.

I'm gonna go to the next spot, pick apart the key areas, go to the next spot versus I don't walk and cover the entire thing. I'm just it's like a power fishing, like go to the best areas, But why are those birds in that area because there a crop field on this side of the Like if there's a cropfield, say on the left side of the swamp, well the oddside of the birds are probably gonna be there, especially if it's you know, on a backside where there's less pressure. I'm gonna go walk those key areas and then then go right.

Well and that's I mean, we talk about this all the time, but like the access issue, you know, like where does the pressure originate from? Because you can just about look into the future and see what people are going to do. So that kind of stuff too, even just hunting a different way. But if you think about you know, like I have this for years in the white tail space, like how do you find bucks on public land?

Well and that's I mean, we talk about this all the time, but like the access issue, you know, like where does the pressure originate from? Because you can just about look into the future and see what people are going to do. So that kind of stuff too, even just hunting a different way. But if you think about you know, like I have this for years in the white tail space, like how do you find bucks on public land?

How do you find bucks on public land?

How do you find bucks on public land?

Most of what I'm doing is just trying to do something different than other people.

Most of what I'm doing is just trying to do something different than other people.

And then if you can.

And then if you can.

Figure out like they usually do this, If I try this, then you'll bump into the animals that know that they usually do this. Yeah, and we think I was thinking about this at the end of the season this year in Minnesota, where I was like, these pheasants have us so figured out by now because they get hunted so much. So unless I do something different and play that win right and structure my routes to like just show them something different of that knowledge, right, I think about every big game animal I've ever hunted. Of course they're going to pattern you on public land. If a pheasant can do it, you know, if the grouse can sit out there and they can hear that four wheel are on the two track and they can be in that old homestead with the crab apples or whatever, they're just going to do that and the pressure is going to go buy them over and over again.

Figure out like they usually do this, If I try this, then you'll bump into the animals that know that they usually do this. Yeah, and we think I was thinking about this at the end of the season this year in Minnesota, where I was like, these pheasants have us so figured out by now because they get hunted so much. So unless I do something different and play that win right and structure my routes to like just show them something different of that knowledge, right, I think about every big game animal I've ever hunted. Of course they're going to pattern you on public land. If a pheasant can do it, you know, if the grouse can sit out there and they can hear that four wheel are on the two track and they can be in that old homestead with the crab apples or whatever, they're just going to do that and the pressure is going to go buy them over and over again.

Yeah, that's a super interesting point. I've got a kind of a fun case study. So there's a there's a piece of puppic plan a WMA near my house that I run run the dogs on every day that's legal. So from July fifteenth to April first, like, I would go if I wasn't hunting, I would go take all the dogs out and we'd go run the WMA. Every single day. We would do this. It was just exercise. For the dog. So but I would do the same route every single day. And by doing it every single day, you see those patterns on what those birds are doing. Like people would come and it's like I'd be there and they'd come hunt it. During the season, I wasn't hunting. I was just running them, and it's like I see what they would do, and it's like I'd do a I do this every day so I can tell you what they're gonna do, where they're gonna be, et cetera.

Yeah, that's a super interesting point. I've got a kind of a fun case study. So there's a there's a piece of puppic plan a WMA near my house that I run run the dogs on every day that's legal. So from July fifteenth to April first, like, I would go if I wasn't hunting, I would go take all the dogs out and we'd go run the WMA. Every single day. We would do this. It was just exercise. For the dog. So but I would do the same route every single day. And by doing it every single day, you see those patterns on what those birds are doing. Like people would come and it's like I'd be there and they'd come hunt it. During the season, I wasn't hunting. I was just running them, and it's like I see what they would do, and it's like I'd do a I do this every day so I can tell you what they're gonna do, where they're gonna be, et cetera.

But yeah, it's like like clockwork.

But yeah, it's like like clockwork.

I would see somebody pull in and they would walk down the edge around this shelter belt. It's like, man, I do this every day in these birds like they know this game. Like it's there's a lot of birds on this piece of property, but maybe I don't know one out of ten days would I maybe move a pheasant or my dog's like I would get in range to shoot a pheasant if I was hunting, And so yeah, it's just just really interesting.

I would see somebody pull in and they would walk down the edge around this shelter belt. It's like, man, I do this every day in these birds like they know this game. Like it's there's a lot of birds on this piece of property, but maybe I don't know one out of ten days would I maybe move a pheasant or my dog's like I would get in range to shoot a pheasant if I was hunting, And so yeah, it's just just really interesting.

To see how well they learned that.

To see how well they learned that.

And on this property, there's an access on the back side of it as well, but it's overgrown.

And on this property, there's an access on the back side of it as well, but it's overgrown.

You kind of got.

You kind of got.

To pick your way to get to it, and the times that I go and park there and work it the opposite way. It's like the birds they just don't understand what's going on there. Right, It's like, oh, and I get if I go and I'd rarely do that side, but if I do, it's like almost every time I am getting within gun range of a bird.

To pick your way to get to it, and the times that I go and park there and work it the opposite way. It's like the birds they just don't understand what's going on there. Right, It's like, oh, and I get if I go and I'd rarely do that side, but if I do, it's like almost every time I am getting within gun range of a bird.

Right.

Right.

So yeah, it's just very interesting, not that complicated. No, it just takes. It just takes a little different. We got to wrap this up here in a second. I want to talk about just a couple things. I know, so people are going to listen to this and they're gonna be like, well, there's still no birds on public land by my house. And I just want to say, like, when I moved to the suburbs of the Twin Cities, I was like, I have no birds. Like I'm like, I have no birds to hunt. But I had to find a place to hunt deer. So I started scouting white tails because I'm like, I got to I gotta be in a tree stand.

So yeah, it's just very interesting, not that complicated. No, it just takes. It just takes a little different. We got to wrap this up here in a second. I want to talk about just a couple things. I know, so people are going to listen to this and they're gonna be like, well, there's still no birds on public land by my house. And I just want to say, like, when I moved to the suburbs of the Twin Cities, I was like, I have no birds. Like I'm like, I have no birds to hunt. But I had to find a place to hunt deer. So I started scouting white tails because I'm like, I got to I gotta be in a tree stand.

I just do.

I just do.

And I started finding wood ducks that were real patternable. I started finding some teal that were real patternable. I had a retriever, so I was like, well, switch gears now, and in the process of that, it just hit me so hard. I was like I had taken woodcock for granted because of I have access to big woods, lots of woodcock stuff if I want it. It's not my I'd rather hunt grouse. I'd rather hunt a lot of stuff than a woodcock, just would.

And I started finding wood ducks that were real patternable. I started finding some teal that were real patternable. I had a retriever, so I was like, well, switch gears now, and in the process of that, it just hit me so hard. I was like I had taken woodcock for granted because of I have access to big woods, lots of woodcock stuff if I want it. It's not my I'd rather hunt grouse. I'd rather hunt a lot of stuff than a woodcock, just would.

But I was.

But I was.

I remember sitting on a tree stand in this spot in the Cities, listening to traffic and watching woodcock fly into this swamp and just going, Okay, they have no idea where they're at. So even though eleven months of year you might not have a viable upland bird like population at all to hunt there, there's a time in October where all of a sudden, these worm meters from Canada show up and you can go in there and have a true upland hunt. And I started all of my dogs as puppies on woodcock in the Twin Cities, in a place where people are like, you can't do it, and it's like there's a window.

I remember sitting on a tree stand in this spot in the Cities, listening to traffic and watching woodcock fly into this swamp and just going, Okay, they have no idea where they're at. So even though eleven months of year you might not have a viable upland bird like population at all to hunt there, there's a time in October where all of a sudden, these worm meters from Canada show up and you can go in there and have a true upland hunt. And I started all of my dogs as puppies on woodcock in the Twin Cities, in a place where people are like, you can't do it, and it's like there's a window.

Is it your dream hunt? No? I love shooting woodcock, right, it's.

Is it your dream hunt? No? I love shooting woodcock, right, it's.

Great, But yeah, no, is it like the end, I'll be all the best thing in the world.

Great, But yeah, no, is it like the end, I'll be all the best thing in the world.

Probably not well, but what I mean by that is like, do people want to sit there and listen to morning rush hour traffic? Like love Woodcock? Hate him, I don't care. What I'm saying is like, if you look at that scenario, you'd be like, that's not necessarily like where I would.

Probably not well, but what I mean by that is like, do people want to sit there and listen to morning rush hour traffic? Like love Woodcock? Hate him, I don't care. What I'm saying is like, if you look at that scenario, you'd be like, that's not necessarily like where I would.

I wouldn't choose it. I would draw up a better plan.

I wouldn't choose it. I would draw up a better plan.

But it was even there, So I'm like, all I want to say is like, there probably are opportunities closer than you think for something at some point in the season where you can get your dog out, find some birds on public land and still have a bad ass hunt.

But it was even there, So I'm like, all I want to say is like, there probably are opportunities closer than you think for something at some point in the season where you can get your dog out, find some birds on public land and still have a bad ass hunt.

Yeah, And that's you know, It's it's that taking again, the taking that step back and realizing like, hey, it might not be Woodcock.

Yeah, And that's you know, It's it's that taking again, the taking that step back and realizing like, hey, it might not be Woodcock.

You might live in in Phoenix.

You might live in in Phoenix.

Well, in that case, it's called the Gamble's Quail Right right there, they're littered, Like you pick a city and there's there's probably something happening there.

Well, in that case, it's called the Gamble's Quail Right right there, they're littered, Like you pick a city and there's there's probably something happening there.

It's just taking that step back and.

It's just taking that step back and.

Say, hey, maybe I won't talking to a guy here at Sewee and he's like, yeah, I hunted forty days and I found one covey at Quail and he's like, then I then.

Say, hey, maybe I won't talking to a guy here at Sewee and he's like, yeah, I hunted forty days and I found one covey at Quail and he's like, then I then.

I figured then I heard about Woodcock.

I figured then I heard about Woodcock.

And now I'm making ten contacts a day. So he's like that was a game changer, right, So it's taking that step back and realized like, Okay, what other opportunities are here for me if I'm developing a dog, et cetera.

And now I'm making ten contacts a day. So he's like that was a game changer, right, So it's taking that step back and realized like, Okay, what other opportunities are here for me if I'm developing a dog, et cetera.

Right, you brought up the the Arizona thing. I know, I said I was gonna wrap this up. We will second.

Right, you brought up the the Arizona thing. I know, I said I was gonna wrap this up. We will second.

I it.

I it.

I know a whole bunch of people who have and you know you're talking a state that's like fifty percent public land, three different species of quail.

I know a whole bunch of people who have and you know you're talking a state that's like fifty percent public land, three different species of quail.

Season goes into like February or it did, Yeah, still does.

Season goes into like February or it did, Yeah, still does.

So it's a destination place for a lot of people who have the means to be like, I want to keep my freaking season going. But the people I know who are really good at that down there, you would have thousands of acres of the same kind of mono habitat, Like where are these birds? Where do you start? Well, if you live in the desert, you're gonna get thirsty. So you can look at those cattle tanks, the water tanks, like the gozzlers and start there and be like, now my route is this Instead of lighting out across the desert and being like, I hope I find a covey of quail in this, and so just even a little intention and using some tools there to put you at least where like at some point in the day these birds are going to drink. Maybe it's this one, maybe it's the next one where it spills out and there's some nice grass below it or something. They're going to show up there and you're already putting yourself your odds are just better to get your dog some contacts and get you just like have a better hunt.

So it's a destination place for a lot of people who have the means to be like, I want to keep my freaking season going. But the people I know who are really good at that down there, you would have thousands of acres of the same kind of mono habitat, Like where are these birds? Where do you start? Well, if you live in the desert, you're gonna get thirsty. So you can look at those cattle tanks, the water tanks, like the gozzlers and start there and be like, now my route is this Instead of lighting out across the desert and being like, I hope I find a covey of quail in this, and so just even a little intention and using some tools there to put you at least where like at some point in the day these birds are going to drink. Maybe it's this one, maybe it's the next one where it spills out and there's some nice grass below it or something. They're going to show up there and you're already putting yourself your odds are just better to get your dog some contacts and get you just like have a better hunt.

I love that shit.

I love that shit.

Yeah, yeah, because I remember distinctly first time I hunted New Mexico, Like we just went out and it was this area that there were words there. We saw them from the road they were running around, but it was a big kreasout flat. So just the same thing for hundreds of thousands of acres and sure there were words in there. But the other thing, like we talked about, is finding where they are and where you can actually get an opportunity to shoot one there. They would just I mean they were they were as fast as my damn pointer was. Like they were just running. You could never hold them. Went to a different area, thicker grass, right, and Okay, now they're going to hold here or this is an opportunity where we can pin them against something. So that was that was an eye opening experience. That's shit's so fun. Yeah, so fun. All Right, we got to wrap this up.

Yeah, yeah, because I remember distinctly first time I hunted New Mexico, Like we just went out and it was this area that there were words there. We saw them from the road they were running around, but it was a big kreasout flat. So just the same thing for hundreds of thousands of acres and sure there were words in there. But the other thing, like we talked about, is finding where they are and where you can actually get an opportunity to shoot one there. They would just I mean they were they were as fast as my damn pointer was. Like they were just running. You could never hold them. Went to a different area, thicker grass, right, and Okay, now they're going to hold here or this is an opportunity where we can pin them against something. So that was that was an eye opening experience. That's shit's so fun. Yeah, so fun. All Right, we got to wrap this up.

There's tons of people here at the expo and adorable puppies walking by us.

There's tons of people here at the expo and adorable puppies walking by us.

Ben, thanks so much.

Ben, thanks so much.

Uh, if you're listening to this and you want to figure out where birds are, obviously, I mean Ben works for AX, we have a tight relationship with him, but it's like a that's one of the tools that put so many birds in my game bag. I live off of it because it just works.

Uh, if you're listening to this and you want to figure out where birds are, obviously, I mean Ben works for AX, we have a tight relationship with him, but it's like a that's one of the tools that put so many birds in my game bag. I live off of it because it just works.

Yep, appreciate it. Tell me thanks buddy. Yeah,

Yep, appreciate it. Tell me thanks buddy. Yeah,