Pushkin Andre three thousand, best known as half of Atlanta's Outcast, arguably the greatest hip hop duo of all time and definitely one of the most gifted rappers ever. Outside of Atlanta. Most rap fans first heard of Outcast in nineteen ninety five when they got booed at the Source Awards after winning Best New Artist. This was at the start of the East Coast West Coast rivalry, and Andre threw down the gauntlet, declaring the South got something to say. Andrea and his partner Big Boy were the first Southern rappers to see the same sales success as any of their East or West Coast counterparts. In two thousand and three, They're double album speaker Box The Love Below was certified Diamond, meaning it sold over ten million copies and artistically that album remains one of the all time creative high water marks and music. But as you're about to hear, Andre is often haunted by his own legacy. He sat down for tea with Rick Rubin at Shangri La and talked about how fame crippled his creativity and why it's so hard for him to quiet the noise and make new music. The rap fan of me, the music, fan of me, the all things. Andre three thousand fan of me is absolutely in love with this episode, and I think you're gonna love it too. Enjoy. This is broken record line of notes for the digital age. I'm just a mission. Here's Rick Rubin with Andre three thousand from Shangri La. When you were starting to make music, what would have been the touchstone influences that got you'd want to actually make music. I'll have to say Tribe and Dark Powell snooping them and just it was when you at that point of discovery as a kid and seeing these new ways of doing things, these new ways of rapping, like the way how our glyphics were rapping at the time, it was completely new. Yeah, the phrasing was different, Yes, the ending of words, man Eminem. We sat on the phone about an hour talking about how our glyphics crew like how those words and we were trading Yeah, and like their lyrics on the phone, like do you remember man, Yeah, Like they sparked so much. They opened up a new door for everybody, I think, and I think just to be around that time and to be like we we were out when Woo was out, We were out when Nas was out so but we're from the South, so it's kind of like we had to step up. Like I think that was the best blessing. I know, people look at the footage of us winning the Source Award and what I had to say on stage, like, oh that was it was messed up. They're bing boo. But I think that was the biggest blessing for us to have to have to just be better. Yeah, to have to fight and really prove that we were really in to what we were doing. And I could understand how they may have taken you know, first album is just you know, just just some Southern you know, riding around you know, Caliac smoking chick you know, smoking and eat chicken Wayans kind of stuff like that. But it made us have to be better because we were on the road. We're on the road where Red Man, we were opening up for these people, so we got that schooling, you know, so we had to become we had to become better. What's interesting about it too, is that you you did become better, but you didn't become at all like any of them. You know. It really was completely original, and I think that's the reason why it's still holds up to the test of time. Is I don't know anyone who's really made music sense like the music that you made. It's very unique. I would have to say that that is because of the dungeon, like the kind of our incubator, Like the dungeon was basically a house with us, you know, goody mob pa. We were all in a basement, drum machines, house speakers, you know, dirt, no no walls, actually dirt where the furnace and all that kind of stuff was. And that was a place where you you leave your job, leave school. You'd come down there and you might smoke, you might talk about issues. You but you rapping. So I'm trading versus. Could you go over that? Trade versus? Clow come trade versus. So it was at a certain point we started building our own slang, you know, so it became a world in itself. So we gained confidence in ourselves. You know, like when I say king shit, somebody else say king shit, we knew what that meant because we would talk that way around the dungeon. So a certain confidence and a certain building of our vocabulary and building of our own styles. It was like we were creating this own world. So by the time it hit every everybody else it may have sounded like something else, you know, but we were influenced by everything, and there were times where I sounded Souls of mischief e. You know, my very first rap that I remember writing out of high school, which sounded cute, tippish, you know what I mean, because that's what I'm listening to. It makes sense, you know what I mean. Really found your own voice yet, but you but you developed your skill as a writer doing it like him, to find your way in yes, and then eventually it's like, oh, well that's more like him, and this other way it's more like me, right. Yeah. I originally was at a club in LA in this place where you know indie bands played like, you know, first few shows you've ever played. And I saw a band and I saw him perform, and they came and asked me what I thought after performance, and I said, man, you gotta keep keep going, you gotta keep doing it, because it's like, yeah, man, we've been trying to decide if we should wait till we get a deal before we do shows. I was like, no, no, because you're a training ground. Lets you know what you are, who you are of course you want to sound like everybody you love, but in the end you really don't. You know what I mean, You don't, but you don't. You don't get to that point until you've put it out there and you've heard yourself sound horrible or you've heard yourself sound exactly like something but not as good as what you love. Yes, it takes that time. So a lot of our proven ground. We're in the dungeon, you know. We didn't do it a lot of shows. To be honest, it was and it took me to that point. It took me a while to learn how to perform. Actually, I mean I could write. I was more of a writer, but even if you listen to the first album, I couldn't even nuncey to say my words, you know, like I wanted to, because those muscles weren't built, you know, and people I don't understand that. Performing even vocally, it is a muscle and you have to exercise it. And the more you exercise it, the stronger you get. The more you are in front of people, you know what works, what doesn't work, and you can play with that and bring it back into your writing, and you have more confidence in your writing so all all those building moments are important to find your your voice. Absolutely, and there's really no shortcuts. It's you just have to do the word. It's not and it's and it's hard, it's very it's very hard. That I remember times where Rico Rico Wade. There will be times where I would come down and I say, check this out, and I would bust a word for him, and he would just get up and walk away. I say anything, and I would like, fun wrong with him, you know what I mean, Like, damn, this kind of disrespect, you know what I mean. But it took me a minute to realize that, wouldn't it. Yeah, And then I remember one time I maybe had smoke to joint and then winning the in the booth, and I was kind of out of it and I just started rapping with my normal voice, like my speaking voice, and we said that's it, and that was it. Yeah. It's amazing how those breakthroughs happen almost when you're not really looking, you know, like when you're not paying attention, something happens. You gotta move out the way, Yeah, but you gotta you gotta work for moving out the way too, You gotta you can't move out the way so far that nothing happens. Yeah, so you have to work hard and then wait for that moment. Was that there it is? Yeah, you know, be open to recognizing it when it happens. Yeah, but community, man, like, yeah, it's it's funny because and thank you for the opportunity to be on this on this podcast. But when I learned that I was coming, and you know, I learned that it was you and Malcolm's thing. I'd never read any of Malcolm's books, bought them and then I went on on the road and did something and I forgot to read them. So I was like, all right, I'll of respect, let me read, you know, at least read a book. And I don't read much. I actually don't, and so I read outlies and it, man, it blew my mind. It completely blew my mind. And it really made me think of the community that gives you opportunity to be all of this and that's what the dungeon. Yeah, and had there not been a dungeon, who knows what you would have done. You know, like it really and that wasn't anything that you decided to make happen. It's like so much of it is chance. It was, Yeah, like things just happened. The universe sets up a situation and something good happened, something comes out of it. I was just talking about that today earlier with my friend when I was going to college or decided between going at NYU and University Chicago, and had I gone to University Chicago, my whole life would have been different because hip hop was happening in New York and I happened to be there. But if I was somewhere else, I wouldn't have known what was going on there because I wouldn't have been in it. Yep. And that's just luck. You know that has it is? It's luck, it's chances. Maybe you were just supposed it was supposed to happen to you, And I believe in that as well. It's like it's like it's so much of it is out of our control, but but I'm always grateful when something good happens. You know. It's like I know I can't make it happen, but I know that I can be open to it happen. I'll invite it in and welcome it and do everything I can to best support this thing that arrives that I know is bigger than me. Yes, you know, it's magical. It really is. Magic really is. And it's the hardest part of that is when something bad happens and feeling the bad thing and remembering trying to separate ourselves from the thing that happened that didn't work out or didn't go the way we wanted it to go, and to say, Okay, imagine that's a scene in a movie, I can't wait to see what happens next, do you know what I mean, instead of just sinking into the vibe, because because it's the same, it's the same vibe of when the good thing happens, it's the same. It's like, good things happen, bad things happen. It's that's all part of life. Yeah, And just sort of staying neutral and riding the wave. You know, I'm learning. I'm still learning that. You know. It's hard. It's hard riding you say it, riding that waves. It's hard because you dip down low. Sometimes you get stuck, you know, absolutely, especially if you're used to the wave going a certain way. Yes, you know, And I think that's when you have to kind of lay yourself down and kind of just let it be. Yeah, you know, And that's that's hard. It's hard for me. Yes, it's very hard for me. Yes, Well, you've been listening too lately instrumental music. I was just turned on to Steve Wright. Wow. Great, I just chest now, like and I'm like, what the hell have I been? Because I knew Philip Glass. I was always into Field Glass, but I never Then somebody said, well, if you like Philip Glass, you'll love Steve right. Yeah, like what I heard. I was like, what, Yeah, I've been into a lot of a lot of instrumental music now because I'm I just had a point where I sometimes I figure, like a lot of lyrics just bombarding, you know. And I know it sounds crazy coming from a rap artist, but I think sometimes, you know, just sometimes the thoughts just just take over, you know, and then not necessarily anything you want to be a part of, you want to party and you know. But I kind of that I kind of like music that I can have my own thoughts too. Yes, you know, that's kind of where I've been lately. Beautiful. What's your process like making music these days? Do you do you make much? Not so much? How would you say? I haven't been making much music? Man? My my focus is not there, my confidence is not there. I tinker. I tinker a lot, Like I'll just go to a piano and I'll set my iPhone down and just record what I'm doing, move my fingers around and whatever happens. But I hadn't been motivated to do a serious project. I'd like to, but it's just it's just not coming in my in my own self, I'm trying to figure out where do I Where do I Where do I sit? And you know, I don't I don't even know what I am And maybe I'm nothing. Maybe I'm not supposed to be anything. Maybe you know, my history is kind of handicapping in a way. And so I'm just trying to find out what makes me feel the best right now. And what makes you feel the best is when I just do these random, kind of instrumental kind of things. You know, they make me feel that, they make me feel the most rebellious. Yes, you know, I don't know. I have a really rebellious but I don't like to go with the flow. Really, I don't know why. Yes, but I just feel best when I don't. Yes, you know, So I have to honor that, understand, I have to honor that in a way, you know, Oh for sure, for sure. I think so much of it isn't to be decided, do you know what I'm saying. It's not. I don't think it's to be figured out. I think it's more to be I think you make a lot of you start making a lot of things with no thinking of what it's supposed to be or who's it for, what anyone else is going to think. But just get in the habit of making a lot. That's what I gotta get back to me. Yeah, just make a lot. And then at some point in that process you'd be like, m I really like this. It didn't and you didn't know, like through through that whole process, you don't know when that's going to happen. Yeah, And it's not. It's not a decision you make. And it's not an intellectual idea where I have a vision and I'm going to make this thing. It doesn't. It doesn't happen like there rarely happens like that. It happens more just having fun making things. No no stakes, you know, there's no nothing's on the line to see. That's that's that's I'm got to say. That's hard to do when everything is actually I mean when the problem with being an artist, a successful artist, yes, is you have to find a comfortable place to do that again, Yes, but think about they come to place to feel uncomfortable with what I'm saying. But the way that you made the stuff that ended up being successful wasn't made from a place of feeling any responsibility, right because it because the attention wasn't there at all yet in a way, you know, And it's kind of like you were still proving yourself. And it's so I liken it to like if you're a kid and you're in your room, you're plan you know, with with toys and you hops, and you you have this world going on. Yes, the moment when your mom opens the door and says Andre, that world kind of stops. Yes, you know what I mean. So once the attention is on that world, that the world goes away. So you got to find a way to get back to that place to where you can build those worlds again and not have the eyes or like the judge, you know. And that's that's a that's that's hard for me. It's really hard for me because and I mean you see it everywhere now, any little thing I put out is instantly like attacked, not not in a good or a bad way. Well well I'm saying the the yeah, and people nitpick it like with fine tooth comb, like oh he said that word, you know what I mean? And that's that's not a great place to to create from, you know what I mean. And it makes you it makes you draw back, and then maybe I don't have the confidence that I want or the space to experiment like I used to. When the stuff that people love from back then, it was in a place you would free. Yeah, you free. You didn't give a shit, you didn't care like because they didn't. They didn't care. They ain't even like you. No, you know what I mean. So it's like, great, don't like what we're doing. Now we can just do what we're doing. But the same holds true now. So now you can make stuff that you as long as you like it. It doesn't matter if they like it or not because they hated you back then. It's the same. It's the same, do you know what I'm saying. The only thing that's changed is your point of view. Really, yes, nothing else has changed, and that's that is within your control. You can you can you can decide to read what someone else says or give them that power, or you can say they can think what they want and you Usually here's another part of it. This is very interesting when someone is critical of something you do, usually that's more about them than it is about you. Do you know what I'm saying. It's like it's a that's what they see because of who they are. It has nothing to do with you, right, do you know what I'm saying? Well, that's that brings to another point because I've noticed that I'm very judgmental at this point of my own self. So as that's saying that I'm just in a not so great play, yes, you know, yeah, and I and I feel that I feel very judgmental and I hate it, like I don't want to be judgmental. It's almost like being a movie director but not being able to go to the movie theater and see movies on Friday like you used to, because you're judging every shot. Yes, you're judging every light lighting situation. You're like, oh man, they adr that one up. You know. It's it's kind of like how do you get away from that? Yeah, it's almost like you know too much. Yes, yes, yeah, yes, you know too much. And I think as you go along, you just got to find a way to break free of everything you know. And that's very hard. That's very hard, even even melody wise, like I'm getting sick of my melodies because they're all they seem like they're tied to something that I know, or so I try to just throw notes anywhere just to try. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's that rebellious kind of unrespirit, that turn left spirit when everybody's going this way because you're looking for something else. But it's it's very it's very hard when you've been doing it for so long. Understood it's very hard. But moving forward to try to help work through this stuff, make something to where you're happy you made it. That's all like something you'd be happy to play for your friend. That would be the ultimate. That's the ultimate. I mean for me, if I make something, I'm excited to play it for my friend. That's it. Yeah, you know what I mean. That's that's what I've that's what I've been doing lately. That's it. That's that's that's the whole mission. Yeah, we'll be back with under three thousand after the break, we're back with more of under three thousand. Growing up, would you say you were hard on yourself or yeah, for sure. I think especially as a kid when you're trying to fit in or trying to figure out what you are, Like am I cool like that? Or do I want to be hanging with these people? Or do what do they think of me? Or oh man, it's this girl? Does she really like me? Or you know, am I cool enough for it? Like all of those things that most kids go through. You get it, but I think I think I think I did do it a little bit more. And maybe because isolation and I think when you're alone a lot you contemplate, yes, and when you have a lot of time to contemplate, sometimes it's not good. Yeah, you know. And so that's when I said, like if I had brothers and sisters, yeah, I wouldn't have to worry about certain things with social anxieties order like I was diagnosed years ago and hypersensitivity like with that kind of thing, isolation is not good. But I feel most comfortable being isolated. So I spend ninety five percent of my time by myself, yes, you know, and that that gives you time to analyze, and the brain loves to find problems absolutely even if they're not there, absolutely, and so the judgment will kind of analyzing. It's kind of running book. Yeah, so you have to find ways to break out of that kind of thing. And but the other side of it is it's that same hypersensitivity that makes you a great artist. You know. It's like therapist, my therapist, the same thing. It's the truth. It's the truth. It's it's like it's a blessing and a curse. Yeah, it's harder to be in the world, but that's the gift, and it's I know, it's it's man, it's there have been times where I would like I've prayed, like prayed to a god that I didn't even know it existed. Really, yes, pray like I would rather you take this away from me, all of this, and just if I could just feel normal like that, if I could just feel normal, like take voice, career, all that shit, you can have it, if I could feel normal. Yes, But it don't work like that. No, I just don't. It's really sad. But that's why a lot of artists o D. That's why young artists die from drugs, is they're sensitive people. There's all especially in success, there's all this emotion that no one teaches us how to deal with. No, and it's weird. Even people that you know for a long time start acting different to you. Yes, and you start acting different because they start at it's it's weird. It's the whole the whole thing's unnatural. No one teaches you how to deal with it, and it's it's crazy. It's a crazy it's it make it's a crazy making process. Yes, and yes, and so people do stuff to try to just numb that pain. Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it makes sense. It's self medication. You know. It's like I just don't want to feel everything all the time. I understand. Yeah, yeah, you got it. You got Well, we're we're aliking many ways. Yeah, and even a lot of people in the world too, I'm finding you know, you know, it's I think we do get it differently because of the career we've chosen or that chose us. But they're when researching you know, this condition, there are kids that have it. Yeah, they are kids that just don't know how to how to deal in the world. Yes, in that way, you know, Yes, and especially if your parents aren't as sensitive as you are. Then it's really confusing. It's there, it's like they're the adults. They're supposed to know everything. Yeah, and they don't even see this stuff that's happening. Yeah, and you can't explain it. No, they don't want under They're just like, oh, why do you think? Why? Why are you thinking about that? And then I mean, I'm talking about the last fifteen twenty years. I mean we're just now starting to get titles for this stuff, you know, names that you call it. What about the people that didn't have the names for it back then, like or didn't have medicine for it? Absolutely, what do you do? Yeah, you know you can't sit and have a conversation. Yeah, there's a social anxiety think what Yeah, that wouldn't even invent it. Yeah, you know we first started rapping none of those words will now by polarism and you know, all that kind of stuff is like it's almost like commonplace now yea. If someone says I have anxiety, it's like, oh, okay, just go take a nap. That's kind of what it's like now, you know, because it's so common. Yeah, but it's it's and it may have always been just no one knew right, like you see, and people didn't want to look at it or talk about it. And now people are more open, luckily, because it's really because it's helpful to others feeling it. We're not alone, yep, you know, it's so helpful to know that I'm not the only person who feels this way all the time. Yeah. It doesn't make it easier, no, but but it's a little better. It's a little just to be understood, that's it. Yeah. But here's another thing. A friend of mine pointed out that when we talk about isolation and certain societies, they don't have these things like when you're like if it's not a chemical thing, if it's a social thing, Like if you're in a house with ten other people your family and you're all surviving, you don't have time to have that yes, and you're faced you you're faced with these people, so you don't have a kind of like the social kind of dwarfing. And that's interesting to me, you know. And also the success part of it is a key piece of it too, because when you're when you suffer from depression, let's say, and you feel like there's this whole in you. You don't know what it is. You just know you feel bad, but you have this dream I'm gonna I'm gonna through music. I see these people doing this, and I love this. And if when I do that, the hole's going to go away. Yeah, oh no, it's that. But but at least during that time you have hope because you know, I'm gonna work really hard because I want to feel better than I feel now. And you do all this work, and that hole is the thing that allows you to have that drive and perspective to break through. And then you break through and your dreams come true, and the hole is exactly the same, yes, and then your hope it actually it works up a little bit more absolutely because now now what I was spending all my time to my way of solving it, I did it, and it didn't work at all. If anything, as you said, maybe it's worse. I can remember it's funny, and I'll only remember this because they're happy to be a phone call. If it wasn't for this phone call, I would not remember this story. But I had produced the first Beastie Boys album. It came out and it was It became the number one album in the country. And I remember my music lawyer calling me and he said, you have the number one album and in the country. How do you feel? And I said, I've never fret worse in my whole life. Yeah, And it had that call not happened, I wouldn't remember. I wouldn't remember how I felt. But in that moment, because of the call, that's how I was feeling terrible. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's yeah. And people would think that that's the that's the best thing, Yeah, the best thing to hear. But it has nothing to do with it. It's like that's the other thing is like it's a it's like a false until it happens, you don't know. Because we're hopeful, you know, something's going to make it better. If a dream comes true, that's gonna make it better. Nope, or just to get the acceptance you think that this will get. You will get love, you know what I mean, But you also get everything else that comes with it too, absolutely absolutely. Yeah. In a way, in success, it's more isolating, very more lonely making and less community. And like we said, people treat you differently, and it's hard to have regular conversation, not because you don't want to it just it's like the surrounding the whole world has changed. It's a bad plight. Yeah. The more, the more, the more higher you climb, the more success that you have, you become more and more isolated. You spend more times in hotels. Yeah, you spend less time around people. Yes, and your writing kind of goes to ship too. Yeah when that starts to happen too, because your life becomes about being on Yeah, it's just not really interesting to talk about. Yeah. And another one like once you're like I'm sad, you know, because I'm successful alone and hear that ship no, or back on the road again, like yeah, being on the bends who just would tour forever? And all the songs were about being on the road because that's all they had to talk about. Yeah, and that and I don't I don't like it, man. So you know, I try to. I try to do things and I really get enjoyment. Like I don't have bodyguards. Man, I'm my only child, so I go everywhere by myself. You know. I actually love to go to the laundromat and wash clothes like I love that, man, Like I love being in as much in the most normal place I can be yeah, you know, because even if it's I mean, I could buy washing and dry and wash it at home, but it's something about going to the laundromat and sitting social. Yeah, it is social, you know what I mean. Absolutely, it's something. It's something about it. There's some I don't know, you may know it. There's some blues artists that I think he wrote a lyric that the song kind of story went that he had gotten successful and now he's going to have to hire a woman to break his heart to be able to write blue songs, you know what I mean. It's kind of like and that's a weird place to be, yeah, you know. And that's why I love new artists. That's why I love going to these ship clubs and watching fands because I remember that feeling like and I know what it feels like to not be known and when you're fighting to be known, yes, and when you're doing it because you just love it. Yeah, that's a different that's a different things, and that it's not it's not. Nobody at those clubs are punching the clock trying to get it done. Mmm. They gotta get up in the morning and go to their real work. And when you think about it, that when when that cycle of being on the road all the time, when that turns into a job. It's a grueling job, yeah, it is, especially all the travel, flying. It's it's exhausting, it's lonely, and all of it is for this, like you know, an hour or two or and it's kind of exciting because people like it. But even that, when you've done the same thing for a while, starts feeling like what am I doing? Yeah? I did this last night. Yeah, I knew it became a problem for me, like years years ago. I mean this had to be like fifteen twenty years ago. I was on stage doing something, some song. I don't remember what it was, but I've done it so much that it was kind of just in my scan and I'm you know, going through it and I'm in it. Yeah, but I was thinking about what am I going to eat tonight, get back to the hotel, and I and that thought. Yeah, it freaked me out because it was like I was on overdrive, yeah, but I was somewhere else, yeah, autopilot. Yeah, it was just going on yeah yeah yeah yeah. And at that point, I think you just as the artist, I mean of course you have responsibilities you gotta do. But you gotta find a way to shake yourself up. You gotta find a way to change it. And I hadn't toured in ages man like, and I said, if I ever were to get on stage again in that kind of way, like it would be in the shittiest clubs ever. Yeah, you know, it would be like like I want to perform at all the flea markets around the world, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, like it's just just to feel something different. Yeah. Another thing too. The more success you have, too, seems like the further the crowd gets from you. Absolutely, so by the time you get the festivals, yeah, they are twenty feet back. Yeah, you can't even touch nobody. No, you can't, and you can't like even see really faces lights on you, and it's just sort of like a mass of people. It's like they talk about that. It's like if if one person gets in an accident gets killed, you really feel it because of the personality the person. But when you read you know that ten thousand people just died because of an earthquake, it's different because it it becomes faithless. The more the more people, the more faithless it becomes and you don't have that connection. It's not that one person in the front row. Yeah. Yeah, it's going good. Yeah yeah, that exchange. Yeah. We'll be back with more Rix Conversation with Andre after the break. We're back with more RIX Conversation with Andre. Three thousand. What type of meditation practice do you do? None. I started messing around with bay clarinet, and it's a breathing kind of thing, you know, and so I would hope to My goal is to learn how to so that I can get my practice in every day, to incorporate practicing and meditation, like with the breathing in some kind of way, to make it one kind of thing, you know, so you know, I start my day that way. Beautiful. How did you pick that instrument? I was messing around with saxophone a little bit because listening to John cold Tran, So one day I was like, I'm kind of one of those let me well, let me just try it, let me just pick it up kind of person. Yeah. So I didn't get lessons to anything. I just I immediately had an armature that worked and so I could get sound out of it. And then that moved me, and then I read the Cold Train played clarinet first before he played saxophone, and so that made me try clarinet. And so I had the normal B flat clarinet. And one day it was in New York on tour or something, and I went into this used instrument shop and I saw a bass clarinet, US bass clarinet, and I just got it. Yeah, and I never I never went back to the normal clarinet. The bass clarinet is where it sat for me, like the deep tones, like I feel those tones, you know. And I'm in a place where I've never been disciplined with anything, and that's one of my biggest issues. I've always kind of just been so wired and just trying everything that I've never been great at anything. That it's important for me to try to really really dedicate myself to something, to lessons now. So I'm trying to take a little bit more seriously. YEA, not for any goal anything, just to yeah, to practice and to be able to play whatever here basically play whatever I wanna whatever, Yeah, play whatever I'm hearing in my head, or really to play along with anything. That's one of my biggest goals to be able to if someone's in a park, singing something I can just come on in and just mess around. Yeah, that's those are like my biggest goals now. Our friend of mine was laughing at me because I was like, you know, with with the history of what we've done so far, my goals are not grand at all anymore. My goals are like, I want to be able to go to a park and just play. Yeah, I do it sometimes, and I go to the beach sometimes, just play, go to a park. I'm not great, but yeah, I want to be able to to soothe, you know, I want to be able to just kind of serenade or soothe by playing beautiful who who's ever around? You know, beautiful m It felt like there was another influence in your in your old work that wasn't coming from hip hop. Oh yeah, most of my influences early, so you have to you have to like with with outcasts. It's kind of like even before we had our first album, I remember there were times in the Dungeon like big shit, let's paint our faces man, and just let's do like this kind of rockish kind of sound that's not hip hop at all, and then we go du rap. Like it was always searching for other things. Yeah, And I think that comes from the community once again, like because Dallas Austin was doing alternative things. Yeah, Joy had came into town, she was doing alternative things, like she had brought the circus in the town, and so all those influences and we were we were kids, so we got we we actually got to see Kurt Cobain perform on TV like we were kids. But yeah, and I think, uh, and influences so much in a certain way. So those those acts were really really really like influence, even like Raging as a machine, like I wouldn't have I wouldn't have done bombs with a back that if it wasn't for Raging inst a machine. Wow, Because I felt urgency in their music. So I was like, how can I add urgency to what we're doing? Yes, it doesn't sound like rage against the machine, no, but energetically yes yes. So you could playing back to back at the party and the same dancing would continue. It was it's the energy. Yeah. And I tell any musician, you know, when I meet people on the street, like well, what advice could could you give me? I was like, well, you have all the answers, like you you have it the only thing I could say is listen to everything outside of your genre. Yes, a lot of times it'll help your genre. Yes, you know in some type of way. You know, because if everybody's kind of just listen to the exact same thing, it kind of gets like incession was a little maybe you know, but you get it gets more. Say though, yes, this is the way to it's those combinations that make it new. Yeah. Yeah, But the beauty of it is is the new could be made by anybody, you know what I mean, It doesn't. You don't have to be new to make new. That's a good argument, it's true, because it's really more about it's the sensibility, you know, Like when Radiohead made kid A that was new Radiohead. Radiohead transformed from the band that they were, And when I first heard it, I loved Radiohead, and when I first heard it, I was little taken aback. The same thing happened first time I heard eight O eights. Yeah, it's like, I don't do I want to hear Kanye singing? I don't know, Like this is not why I listened to Kanye. And it took a minute. And often those are the things that you come around to liking the best. It's like when the first time you hear it's like you don't necessarily have the the framework understand, especially if you're expecting something different. So that's oh so that's a that's an important point because with the new artists, you're not expecting anything, so there's no expectation, right, So when someone that you like what they do makes a left turn, sometimes that's really jarring. Yes, yeah, I'm familiar man some people. Yeah, but then it takes a minute and you realize, oh, like in both of those cases. Now, when I listen back today and it oates or two of my favorites, but maybe not the first time I heard them, Yeah, take a minute. Absolutely. When we were making Needs, it's a lot of I knew a lot of people were not gonna like it, but we loved it, and I knew that probably people come around because it's really good. It's just not what they're expecting, right, And when you give someone something that they're not expecting, that the first instinct is that's not what I wanted. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. You say you don't have to be new to make new. I agree, Yeah, you know, because I've been making music for a long time. I've learned a lot of stuff along the way. But I don't let that get in the way. I don't let that impede the process of making something new. Right. Are there any examples of like bands or groups that have made new when they've been around for a long time, Yes, and not not in your kid was the first one that I thought of. But but they but that was still a trajectory of it was the band, but it was they were the bends was incredible. Okay Computer was you know, considered, They're like that's there, but it was going that way, or even with Okay Computer, it was going that way, but kid A was not continuing that. It was just left turn and a lot of people didn't like it, me included at first first time I heard it. Then they were on Saturday Night Live and asked one performed some of those songs live, and then was my first cruise like, oh I see what this is now? Like I couldn't really get it from the record at first, and then when I saw that, it helped me bridge my expectation versus this beautiful new thing. Yeah, I struggle with that. Man, I struggle with the same too. You remember, like Paul Simon was already Paul Simon. He had been Simon and Garfuncle and made a load of hits as Paul Simon. Yeah, some might have thought he was sort of on the down swing, and then he made Graceland and that was one of his biggest albums. And in the case of we were talking about the Beatles earlier, Sergeant Pepper, that was the case. The reason it's called Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band was I think it was Paul who had the idea of the Beatles are so big and so familiar, to make something new. Let's become a different band, and let's let's play the characters of Sergeant Pepper and his Lonely Hearts called band. What do they sound like? And now we're free? And it's just and it's both, and it was both even for them as writers. It was a way just to stimulate, stimulate writing. Yeah, it's an exercise sometimes I give artists to do is to and this might be a fun one for you, is pick an artist, pick one of your favorite artists, could be whoever it is, could be Prince, could be whoever. And let's say you had a chance for to write a song for Prince to do, and write a song with the idea of this is a song I'm gonna get Prince to sing, yeah, because it would be completely different than what you'd write for yourself. Yeah, No, exactly the song Prototype, I actually wrote it in mind for Janet Jackson to sing. I wanted to just submit for her to sing that song. She probably don't even know it, but Prototype was written in that way. And once I lay down, you know, Demo, it's like, uh, it feels better. It feels really you know if I did it. Yeah, and another song She's alive on the Love Below, like I really wanted to need a Baker to sing it, yea. And so it's my bad version of a need a Bakery. And I know it doesn't sound like it, but that's kind of That's kind of how how it is. This is one of those conversations I could have gone on forever, and in fact it did. Rick and Andre continued talking about how Andre played the flute for random Starbucks customers before the interview, about mystical experiences, their shared love of James Blake, and so much more. But this is where we'll have to leave it for now. Are sin serious? Thanks to Andrew two thousand for his music and his words. We'll be back on Thursday with an episode from Brittany Howard of the Alabama Shakes, and then Broken Record is going on a short hiatus, but when we back up in January with episodes of the podcast, and I'm really excited to share Ozzy Osbourne, was Sharon Bob Were, Kenny Beats, Booker TV and Gez Nick Lowe, The XX and more for now. If you'd like to hear a curate in playlist of Andre's music or any of our other past shows, check us out at Broken Record podcast dot com. You can also sign up for a behind the scenes newsletter while are you there. Broken Records producing help from Jason Gambrel, Neil Lobell, and Lea Rose for Pushkin Industries. Our theme music is by the great producer Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond. Thanks for listening.