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It seems to me unfair at the political parties, who you would think should be the most important voice in campaigns are the ones that face most onerous rules and regulations on their campaign donation, and the billionaires have no regulations.

It seems to me unfair at the political parties, who you would think should be the most important voice in campaigns are the ones that face most onerous rules and regulations on their campaign donation, and the billionaires have no regulations.

Let's just have a fair fight. It's the First Amendment.

Let's just have a fair fight. It's the First Amendment.

And I'm proud to represent my clients and tell staff or the members themselves why we think they got it wrong.

And I'm proud to represent my clients and tell staff or the members themselves why we think they got it wrong.

All right, welcome to Counterpoints Today.

All right, welcome to Counterpoints Today.

We're going to be talking about the corporate takeover of Washington. We've got an author over here, Brodie Mullins, who wrote with Luke Mullens the new book which is destroyed. That's right, put his put the actual copy up on the screen here, called The Wolves of k Street. The Secret History of How Big Money took Over Big Government were also joined by Sam Godaldig, who represents that big money taking over big government. Sam is a lobbyist here in Washington. Do you go by super lobbyists or you just go by lobbybbyist?

We're going to be talking about the corporate takeover of Washington. We've got an author over here, Brodie Mullins, who wrote with Luke Mullens the new book which is destroyed. That's right, put his put the actual copy up on the screen here, called The Wolves of k Street. The Secret History of How Big Money took Over Big Government were also joined by Sam Godaldig, who represents that big money taking over big government. Sam is a lobbyist here in Washington. Do you go by super lobbyists or you just go by lobbybbyist?

Just we'll go by Wolf. Now, Yes, he's a He is a Wolf of K Street.

Just we'll go by Wolf. Now, Yes, he's a He is a Wolf of K Street.

And so we hope that people at the end of this program will have a full and rich understanding of how lobbying works and how legislating works in Washington based on this kind of investigation into the into the history of it.

And so we hope that people at the end of this program will have a full and rich understanding of how lobbying works and how legislating works in Washington based on this kind of investigation into the into the history of it.

Sam quickly start with you.

Sam quickly start with you.

You actually read the book, which is unusual for you.

You actually read the book, which is unusual for you.

Tell us what you thought of it. I loved it. Brody did an incredible job.

Tell us what you thought of it. I loved it. Brody did an incredible job.

He outlined the careers of three, you know, mega lobbyist people that change the field. I was a staffer on Capitol Hill when most of these lobbyists were kind of in their prime, so I didn't know them very well personally, but I definitely knew of them. They all had enormous shops and big influence, and they were cutting edge. And Brody writes about that and kind of writes about how things got off the rails for him too, So I found it really interesting.

He outlined the careers of three, you know, mega lobbyist people that change the field. I was a staffer on Capitol Hill when most of these lobbyists were kind of in their prime, so I didn't know them very well personally, but I definitely knew of them. They all had enormous shops and big influence, and they were cutting edge. And Brody writes about that and kind of writes about how things got off the rails for him too, So I found it really interesting.

It is interesting how terribly things actually turned out in the end for almost all of the characters in this book, and also terribly for us as a country. Like nobody won here, even the winners lost. But Brody want to start with you and ask you. Let's say you've got Ukrainian oligarch or an Israeli oligarch or Russian oligarch.

It is interesting how terribly things actually turned out in the end for almost all of the characters in this book, and also terribly for us as a country. Like nobody won here, even the winners lost. But Brody want to start with you and ask you. Let's say you've got Ukrainian oligarch or an Israeli oligarch or Russian oligarch.

Although sanctions come into well.

Although sanctions come into well.

Let's go with the second. Sanctions are a problem too, that's a political problem. An oligarch is decides that he has a problem in Washington. It's always a heat and he needs this problem solved. So, knowing everything that you've learned in your couple of decades of covering Washington, influence if what would the influence pedlars in Washington tell an oligarch For an oligarch who's coming into town, here are the steps that you need to take if you want to move your position from where it is now to something more sympathetic. You get your yacht out of hawk or whatever it is that they feel like they need.

Let's go with the second. Sanctions are a problem too, that's a political problem. An oligarch is decides that he has a problem in Washington. It's always a heat and he needs this problem solved. So, knowing everything that you've learned in your couple of decades of covering Washington, influence if what would the influence pedlars in Washington tell an oligarch For an oligarch who's coming into town, here are the steps that you need to take if you want to move your position from where it is now to something more sympathetic. You get your yacht out of hawk or whatever it is that they feel like they need.

Well, I'll give you two different answers.

Well, I'll give you two different answers.

In a normal world, the oligarch would hire lobbyists Republicans and Democrats, and lobbies are really translators. I mean oligarchs or US corporation executives are running their businesses, or running their countries or running you know, how are they they make their money. They're not folcus on Washington. Policy and the policy making process here is incredibly confusing and complex. So lobbies in general are translaers. They tell people, here are the people you need to talk to, here's the story you need to tell. Here's how a bill becomes a law, or how a resolution will get passed. And it's really about educating as many of the correct people as possible to get your message out on Capitol Hill. The second answer, though, is if Donald Trump wins, the answer is that you hire Paul Manaford. Paul Mannifort would probably be the most powerful unelected person in Washington. If Donald Trump wins, major character in your book, major character in our book, and the way he's survived through so many years is making contacts with the most important people in Washington, working for President Reagan, working for President Bush. After that, and if Trump is elected, there's one person in the world on the planet who is gone to jail for Donald Trump and proven his loyalty, and that is Paul Manaford. And if Trump wins, Manaford is going to be the guy to call well Manaphord.

In a normal world, the oligarch would hire lobbyists Republicans and Democrats, and lobbies are really translators. I mean oligarchs or US corporation executives are running their businesses, or running their countries or running you know, how are they they make their money. They're not folcus on Washington. Policy and the policy making process here is incredibly confusing and complex. So lobbies in general are translaers. They tell people, here are the people you need to talk to, here's the story you need to tell. Here's how a bill becomes a law, or how a resolution will get passed. And it's really about educating as many of the correct people as possible to get your message out on Capitol Hill. The second answer, though, is if Donald Trump wins, the answer is that you hire Paul Manaford. Paul Mannifort would probably be the most powerful unelected person in Washington. If Donald Trump wins, major character in your book, major character in our book, and the way he's survived through so many years is making contacts with the most important people in Washington, working for President Reagan, working for President Bush. After that, and if Trump is elected, there's one person in the world on the planet who is gone to jail for Donald Trump and proven his loyalty, and that is Paul Manaford. And if Trump wins, Manaford is going to be the guy to call well Manaphord.

It's a good place actually to start going back in time. Sam, I'm really curious to ask you this question, given what you just said about watching people when you were younger and you were a staffer from that generation. But I'll start here because you document in the book the fascinating story of how Manifort, Black and Stone, names that are familiar to a lot of people. Roger Stone, of course alluding to changed the game, and lobbying itself has phases, has had sort of phases throughout the last fifty years plus of American history. What changed fundamentally about lobbying, as he documented in The Wolves of Case Street.

It's a good place actually to start going back in time. Sam, I'm really curious to ask you this question, given what you just said about watching people when you were younger and you were a staffer from that generation. But I'll start here because you document in the book the fascinating story of how Manifort, Black and Stone, names that are familiar to a lot of people. Roger Stone, of course alluding to changed the game, and lobbying itself has phases, has had sort of phases throughout the last fifty years plus of American history. What changed fundamentally about lobbying, as he documented in The Wolves of Case Street.

Yeah, there's one fundamental change in the last fifty years, and that is that most people think of lobbying today as based on cozy relationships between lobbyists and lawmakers and campaign donations and state dinners and golf outings. And that's just not how lobbying works these days. Lobby is much more about mobilizing constituents, getting business groups, getting like minded allies out in the States to pressure members of Congress to vote one way or another. Paul Manniford and Roger Stones started to change things that way. They were campaign guys in the late nineteen seventies. They were working for Ronald Reagan. Interesting story and Ronald Reagan back then it was almost was very similar to Donald Trump.

Yeah, there's one fundamental change in the last fifty years, and that is that most people think of lobbying today as based on cozy relationships between lobbyists and lawmakers and campaign donations and state dinners and golf outings. And that's just not how lobbying works these days. Lobby is much more about mobilizing constituents, getting business groups, getting like minded allies out in the States to pressure members of Congress to vote one way or another. Paul Manniford and Roger Stones started to change things that way. They were campaign guys in the late nineteen seventies. They were working for Ronald Reagan. Interesting story and Ronald Reagan back then it was almost was very similar to Donald Trump.

He's an outsider.

He's an outsider.

Yes, people think of him as the established of Republican, which he is now, but back then he was unning against George Bush.

Yes, people think of him as the established of Republican, which he is now, but back then he was unning against George Bush.

George Bush was the Eastern Conservative.

George Bush was the Eastern Conservative.

Establishment back when there were Eastern Conservatives around. He went to Yale, he had the right pedigree. He worked at the RNC, and he was supposed to win the nineteen eighty election, or at least be the Republican nominee. Reagan beat him. Then Reagan beats Carter. Reagan comes to office and there's no Republicans in town. There were no Republican lobbyists because one Democrats to control Congress for fifty years two the last set of Republican establishing figures were with the Knicks the administration, so they were out with Watergate. Paul Maniford and Roger Stone had worked for the Reagan campaign companies started saying, Hey, who can we hire the lobbyist who has access, who knows Reagan and Stone and Maniford are literally thirty and thirty one years old, basically said like, we can do this. So they started getting tons of corporate clients. And what they realized was that running a lobbying campaign is very similar running a political campaign. You're just trying to get fifty one percent of your constituents in this case Congress, to vote for what you want. And so they started running basically political campaign for big corporations.

Establishment back when there were Eastern Conservatives around. He went to Yale, he had the right pedigree. He worked at the RNC, and he was supposed to win the nineteen eighty election, or at least be the Republican nominee. Reagan beat him. Then Reagan beats Carter. Reagan comes to office and there's no Republicans in town. There were no Republican lobbyists because one Democrats to control Congress for fifty years two the last set of Republican establishing figures were with the Knicks the administration, so they were out with Watergate. Paul Maniford and Roger Stone had worked for the Reagan campaign companies started saying, Hey, who can we hire the lobbyist who has access, who knows Reagan and Stone and Maniford are literally thirty and thirty one years old, basically said like, we can do this. So they started getting tons of corporate clients. And what they realized was that running a lobbying campaign is very similar running a political campaign. You're just trying to get fifty one percent of your constituents in this case Congress, to vote for what you want. And so they started running basically political campaign for big corporations.

And so you also write about the Wolves of k Street element of it, like it feels like something out of a movie in the eighties, like just absolute debauchery. You go through a bunch of lawsuits that women, particularly in the office, filed against these different partners. Sounded it sounded crazy like and some of these guys just sounded like a complete cliche.

And so you also write about the Wolves of k Street element of it, like it feels like something out of a movie in the eighties, like just absolute debauchery. You go through a bunch of lawsuits that women, particularly in the office, filed against these different partners. Sounded it sounded crazy like and some of these guys just sounded like a complete cliche.

I think it was was it Boggs.

I think it was was it Boggs.

Who would ride in his in his top down Lamborghini or Porsche on his like you know, like rick phone, car phone.

Who would ride in his in his top down Lamborghini or Porsche on his like you know, like rick phone, car phone.

Smoking five cigars a day?

Smoking five cigars a day?

Hell yeah, how did how has that changed or has it not changed? I mean, obviously it's not exactly the same, but the culture still feels.

Hell yeah, how did how has that changed or has it not changed? I mean, obviously it's not exactly the same, but the culture still feels.

I feel like the culture has changed in Washington.

I feel like the culture has changed in Washington.

That was very you know, mad men nineteen fifties mentality that we had in Washington through the nineteen eighties.

That was very you know, mad men nineteen fifties mentality that we had in Washington through the nineteen eighties.

I think there's that a lot of that has cleaned up. But you know, is that right when did you see? Did you see it clean up? In your arc?

I think there's that a lot of that has cleaned up. But you know, is that right when did you see? Did you see it clean up? In your arc?

It had been cleaned up by the time I was on Capitol Hill as a staffer. I think, you know, the campaign finance law and the lobbying reforms after the abram Off scandal really tightened things up.

It had been cleaned up by the time I was on Capitol Hill as a staffer. I think, you know, the campaign finance law and the lobbying reforms after the abram Off scandal really tightened things up.

It's like twenty twelve.

It's like twenty twelve.

Yeah, that sounds right. Brody Brody broke that story too.

Yeah, that sounds right. Brody Brody broke that story too.

Two thousand and seven was he logo, which is the Honest Leadership and Government Reform Act or something like that, And basically what it said was lobbyists like Sam cannot buy anything of value for a staff or a member of Congress. And the idea was, let's separate the ties the coat, Let's bring these cozy relations between lawmakers and staffers right, so that lobbyists can't registered lobbyists can't bring a staffer to play golf, or can't buy dinner or go to Nationals game to sort of separate those ties. One of the results of that, unfortunately the unintended consequence with a lot of lobbyist said, well, I'm just not going to register. The rule applied to registered lobbyists. Registered lobbyist for people who spend twenty percent or more of their time actively talking to members of Congress or policymakers about legislation. And I imagine you don't spend twenty percent of your time.

Two thousand and seven was he logo, which is the Honest Leadership and Government Reform Act or something like that, And basically what it said was lobbyists like Sam cannot buy anything of value for a staff or a member of Congress. And the idea was, let's separate the ties the coat, Let's bring these cozy relations between lawmakers and staffers right, so that lobbyists can't registered lobbyists can't bring a staffer to play golf, or can't buy dinner or go to Nationals game to sort of separate those ties. One of the results of that, unfortunately the unintended consequence with a lot of lobbyist said, well, I'm just not going to register. The rule applied to registered lobbyists. Registered lobbyist for people who spend twenty percent or more of their time actively talking to members of Congress or policymakers about legislation. And I imagine you don't spend twenty percent of your time.

I don't write.

I don't write.

So it's very easy to get around that rule by saying I don't spend twenty twenty percent of my time doing that. So lots of lobbyists just deregistered and therefore the rules potentially didn't apply to them.

So it's very easy to get around that rule by saying I don't spend twenty twenty percent of my time doing that. So lots of lobbyists just deregistered and therefore the rules potentially didn't apply to them.

So Sam, then tell us what the life you know, people at home, Ryan and I've both been in Washington and around this, but for people at home, tell us what the daily life. In the daily routine in the life of a lobbyist looks like.

So Sam, then tell us what the life you know, people at home, Ryan and I've both been in Washington and around this, but for people at home, tell us what the daily life. In the daily routine in the life of a lobbyist looks like.

It's not super sexy. You know, it's meeting with a lot of young staff. You know, I'm fifty one now, but you know, it's meeting with the staff to members of Congress and senators, talking to a lot of journalists, sitting in meetings with clients, their PR firms, their lawyers. You know, we've talked about like the political and industrial complex.

It's not super sexy. You know, it's meeting with a lot of young staff. You know, I'm fifty one now, but you know, it's meeting with the staff to members of Congress and senators, talking to a lot of journalists, sitting in meetings with clients, their PR firms, their lawyers. You know, we've talked about like the political and industrial complex.

I consider all four of us solidly in it.

I consider all four of us solidly in it.

In a source to you guys, in a source to Brody, trying to you know, shift the debate in positive ways for clients and trying to kill things on Capitol Hill that our clients don't like the book, I agree with Brody. It does feel like an era that's long gone. The book makes it sound like it was all mad men, and you know, these these happy hours that were insane, and the misogyny, and it's I haven't seen any of that.

In a source to you guys, in a source to Brody, trying to you know, shift the debate in positive ways for clients and trying to kill things on Capitol Hill that our clients don't like the book, I agree with Brody. It does feel like an era that's long gone. The book makes it sound like it was all mad men, and you know, these these happy hours that were insane, and the misogyny, and it's I haven't seen any of that.

I think it's an interesting way to make a living.

I think it's an interesting way to make a living.

You know, we get to talk to a lot of people, come up with strategies to make you know, certain policies palatable or not palatable for the members that are going to.

You know, we get to talk to a lot of people, come up with strategies to make you know, certain policies palatable or not palatable for the members that are going to.

Vote on those policies.

Vote on those policies.

We focus on a lot of Fortune five hundred work at my firm. We don't do FARA work, so that kind of eliminates the Ukrainian you know, oligarchs.

We focus on a lot of Fortune five hundred work at my firm. We don't do FARA work, so that kind of eliminates the Ukrainian you know, oligarchs.

How do you design who to represent them.

How do you design who to represent them.

I'm at an all republic firms, so for us, it's very simple. We try to take clients that we think Republicans will be aligned to want to help.

I'm at an all republic firms, so for us, it's very simple. We try to take clients that we think Republicans will be aligned to want to help.

What about you worse issues me personally?

What about you worse issues me personally?

Like you know, when you're thinking of I'm sure you've had less than savory characters approach you in the past.

Like you know, when you're thinking of I'm sure you've had less than savory characters approach you in the past.

I'm sure you've turned people away. What's that like for you?

I'm sure you've turned people away. What's that like for you?

Less than savory characters.

Less than savory characters.

You kind of get a vibe pretty quick if they're trying, you know, throwing around more money than maybe you know you would normally charge. You know, sets off like a little internal red flag. People assuming that you can do things that you can't. You know, like one conversation is going to change everything. So you know, I try to stay away from that personally. You know, it's a big industry. There's a lot of obvious in town, and there's even more lawyers and more PR firms. So you know, Brody wrote about three kind of really interesting slash ethically maybe challenged you know, human beings.

You kind of get a vibe pretty quick if they're trying, you know, throwing around more money than maybe you know you would normally charge. You know, sets off like a little internal red flag. People assuming that you can do things that you can't. You know, like one conversation is going to change everything. So you know, I try to stay away from that personally. You know, it's a big industry. There's a lot of obvious in town, and there's even more lawyers and more PR firms. So you know, Brody wrote about three kind of really interesting slash ethically maybe challenged you know, human beings.

I don't see that every day.

I don't see that every day.

You know, there's been people that have been wildly successful, and you know, every election turns turns kind of the tide on which firms may or may not get hired by certain clients.

You know, there's been people that have been wildly successful, and you know, every election turns turns kind of the tide on which firms may or may not get hired by certain clients.

But it's it's a lot of blocking and tackling.

But it's it's a lot of blocking and tackling.

It's a lot of meetings, it's a lot of trying to figure out messages that will move you know, electorates in certain congressional districts or states to a place where the Senator, the member feels comfortable voting yes or no.

It's a lot of meetings, it's a lot of trying to figure out messages that will move you know, electorates in certain congressional districts or states to a place where the Senator, the member feels comfortable voting yes or no.

One thing to add I think, you know, like I said before, a lot of people think that lobbying is not what.

One thing to add I think, you know, like I said before, a lot of people think that lobbying is not what.

It is the way it exists today.

It is the way it exists today.

You know, back in the day when you work for John Byner, I think people think that you could go into John Baynor and give a campaign checking He's going to, you know, put some provision into the law for you.

You know, back in the day when you work for John Byner, I think people think that you could go into John Baynor and give a campaign checking He's going to, you know, put some provision into the law for you.

And that just doesn't happen anymore.

And that just doesn't happen anymore.

And it did happen, It absolutely did twenty thirty forty years ago, especially when we had earmarks. But it doesn't happen now. And part of it is because it's scrutiny of the media and the member of Congress exists. I mean, in my entire time of being a reporter, Like the one thing you know for sure is a member of Congress will do anything it takes to get reelected. And if they're gonna do some sweetheart deal for a lobbyist buddy and get caught.

And it did happen, It absolutely did twenty thirty forty years ago, especially when we had earmarks. But it doesn't happen now. And part of it is because it's scrutiny of the media and the member of Congress exists. I mean, in my entire time of being a reporter, Like the one thing you know for sure is a member of Congress will do anything it takes to get reelected. And if they're gonna do some sweetheart deal for a lobbyist buddy and get caught.

You know, they could lose their seats, so they're not going to do that. I would add the media landscape.

You know, they could lose their seats, so they're not going to do that. I would add the media landscape.

You know, back when Bogs and Podesta and Matt of Fort were doing, what they were doing was so tight. You know, you had three major newspapers, maybe four, couple of network news shows that only ran a half hour every night. You know, now with cell phones and the Internet and all the media kind of outlets that have popped up across across DC, it's really hard to have a quiet conversation in a smoke filled back room, Like there's no secrets anymore.

You know, back when Bogs and Podesta and Matt of Fort were doing, what they were doing was so tight. You know, you had three major newspapers, maybe four, couple of network news shows that only ran a half hour every night. You know, now with cell phones and the Internet and all the media kind of outlets that have popped up across across DC, it's really hard to have a quiet conversation in a smoke filled back room, Like there's no secrets anymore.

Nobody even smokes.

Nobody even smokes.

That's true.

That's true.

You I won't reveal what you put in, you know, to get your nicotine.

You I won't reveal what you put in, you know, to get your nicotine.

Fixed before we started here.

Fixed before we started here.

But it seems like it was in and it feels like I'm curious if Washington has sort of adapted to this by concentrating power in you know, the leadership positions, Like it's so like a parasite host relationship in the in the way that, like the Congress, the administrative apparatus kind of shapes itself sometimes to the right the lobbyists, like for instance, like Brody, You've covered this. The House Financial Services Committee and the Senate Banking Committee, those would be the places that would regulate, you know, the people with lots of money. And so what ended up happening is that and this is a parasite host relationship. The members of Congress who wanted to raise money from Wall Street, you know, would go serve on these committees so that it would sort of then be subsumed into that. Like that's how the takeover ends up happening. But today, because there's so much there's so much anger at Wall Street, and there's also, like you said, there's more attention on everything right now, a lot of people are like, actually, I don't want to be on the House Financial Services Committee because it's just going to get me in trouble. It's gonna I'm going to take it's going to show that I took a million dollars from banks. Then it'll I'll take some vote, some bank will blow up, then I'm going to lose my seat. So how are people that's more on the Democratic side, it's harder, I think, to get called effort. What so what is the current state of like fear of getting called a tody to corporate America.

But it seems like it was in and it feels like I'm curious if Washington has sort of adapted to this by concentrating power in you know, the leadership positions, Like it's so like a parasite host relationship in the in the way that, like the Congress, the administrative apparatus kind of shapes itself sometimes to the right the lobbyists, like for instance, like Brody, You've covered this. The House Financial Services Committee and the Senate Banking Committee, those would be the places that would regulate, you know, the people with lots of money. And so what ended up happening is that and this is a parasite host relationship. The members of Congress who wanted to raise money from Wall Street, you know, would go serve on these committees so that it would sort of then be subsumed into that. Like that's how the takeover ends up happening. But today, because there's so much there's so much anger at Wall Street, and there's also, like you said, there's more attention on everything right now, a lot of people are like, actually, I don't want to be on the House Financial Services Committee because it's just going to get me in trouble. It's gonna I'm going to take it's going to show that I took a million dollars from banks. Then it'll I'll take some vote, some bank will blow up, then I'm going to lose my seat. So how are people that's more on the Democratic side, it's harder, I think, to get called effort. What so what is the current state of like fear of getting called a tody to corporate America.

There is an incredible amount of populism and parties right now, and there there is kind of a notion that you know, these these PAC checks that you know ran kind of politics in the nineties are a double edged sword. You know, you can get a five thousand dollars pack check and it can be turned around and used against you in a thirty second ad by your opponent or a primary opponent, you know, which you know, these are all things it didn't used to happen in the nineties. Primary opponents, you know, kind of you know, the negative ads have gotten more kind of intense.

There is an incredible amount of populism and parties right now, and there there is kind of a notion that you know, these these PAC checks that you know ran kind of politics in the nineties are a double edged sword. You know, you can get a five thousand dollars pack check and it can be turned around and used against you in a thirty second ad by your opponent or a primary opponent, you know, which you know, these are all things it didn't used to happen in the nineties. Primary opponents, you know, kind of you know, the negative ads have gotten more kind of intense.

Parties had more control.

Parties had more control.

Maybe, and outside groups do too.

Maybe, and outside groups do too.

You know, you've got all these you know, these these I guess super packs that are funded by you know, maybe one or two donors that are willing to do things that maybe the party apparatus in the nineties would have never done, which is challenged a sitting member of Congress. So you know, you take a check, a PAC check, which sounds kind of benign. All it is is a corporations employees contributing to a fund to give to politicians that agree with positions the company agrees with or disagrees with and it turns that contribution into maybe a thirty second hit. So you know, you got five thousand dollars, but it did like a million dollars worth of damage to your you know, your your favorable ratings as a member of Congress.

You know, you've got all these you know, these these I guess super packs that are funded by you know, maybe one or two donors that are willing to do things that maybe the party apparatus in the nineties would have never done, which is challenged a sitting member of Congress. So you know, you take a check, a PAC check, which sounds kind of benign. All it is is a corporations employees contributing to a fund to give to politicians that agree with positions the company agrees with or disagrees with and it turns that contribution into maybe a thirty second hit. So you know, you got five thousand dollars, but it did like a million dollars worth of damage to your you know, your your favorable ratings as a member of Congress.

Hoping to get real around that now, or to try to duck that liability.

Hoping to get real around that now, or to try to duck that liability.

I think, you know, hopefully, you know, your clients aren't that hot that you know that would cause a problem. And it's our job, is lobbyist, to make sure that the members that were trusting and they're trusting us to have serious conversations about how to move the ball forward in Washington on any issue, that we're not going to put them in hot water. So you know, if I'm going to sit there and talk to Congressman X and say, you know, here's a bunch of money, don't worry about it, It's all okay, and then he gets a negative ad run against him, you know that Congressman's probably never going to talk to me again.

I think, you know, hopefully, you know, your clients aren't that hot that you know that would cause a problem. And it's our job, is lobbyist, to make sure that the members that were trusting and they're trusting us to have serious conversations about how to move the ball forward in Washington on any issue, that we're not going to put them in hot water. So you know, if I'm going to sit there and talk to Congressman X and say, you know, here's a bunch of money, don't worry about it, It's all okay, and then he gets a negative ad run against him, you know that Congressman's probably never going to talk to me again.

So you can't win too much. We can't do it the way those guys did it. You know, it's interesting.

So you can't win too much. We can't do it the way those guys did it. You know, it's interesting.

You know I said before that a member of Congress will do whatever it takes to get reelected. Obviously, that means you need fifty one percent of your constituents of overview.

You know I said before that a member of Congress will do whatever it takes to get reelected. Obviously, that means you need fifty one percent of your constituents of overview.

But we also need money.

But we also need money.

After Watergate, Watergate, essentially the Federal Election Commission was created and legalized political actioning committees. Companies started giving tons of money to Republicans and the Democrats and create a sort of pro business center in the US where in Congress where both Republicans and Democrats listened to corporate America and listen to their lobbies and listen to corporations in Parkers are getting this money. We rose to a point where about half members of Congress get about half of their money from corporate packs. And that made members of Congress, Republicans and Democrats more dependent on money from corporate packs. And that meant that the corporations created that allowed corporations to create a pro business working center in this country. That's now fraying because both Democrats are not taking corporate pack money and some Republicans are not taking corporate back money because.

After Watergate, Watergate, essentially the Federal Election Commission was created and legalized political actioning committees. Companies started giving tons of money to Republicans and the Democrats and create a sort of pro business center in the US where in Congress where both Republicans and Democrats listened to corporate America and listen to their lobbies and listen to corporations in Parkers are getting this money. We rose to a point where about half members of Congress get about half of their money from corporate packs. And that made members of Congress, Republicans and Democrats more dependent on money from corporate packs. And that meant that the corporations created that allowed corporations to create a pro business working center in this country. That's now fraying because both Democrats are not taking corporate pack money and some Republicans are not taking corporate back money because.

Of the issues that Sam mentioned.

Of the issues that Sam mentioned.

So now what we have is members of Congress, Republicans and Democrats getting money from small donors. Small donors tend to be more ideological, less concerned about getting things done in Washington, oftentimes trying.

So now what we have is members of Congress, Republicans and Democrats getting money from small donors. Small donors tend to be more ideological, less concerned about getting things done in Washington, oftentimes trying.

To blow up things in Washington.

To blow up things in Washington.

And you have members of Congress on the right and the left who are now instead of appealing to the middle and coming to these companies to get their money and see what they want, or sort of moving to the extremes, which I think has made politics more extreme on both sides.

And you have members of Congress on the right and the left who are now instead of appealing to the middle and coming to these companies to get their money and see what they want, or sort of moving to the extremes, which I think has made politics more extreme on both sides.

And so the other thing about corporate pack.

And so the other thing about corporate pack.

Dollars is that while there are problems with them, we know where they're coming from, we know how they're raised, they're regulated, they're disclosed, they're capped donations from billionaires and small donors.

Dollars is that while there are problems with them, we know where they're coming from, we know how they're raised, they're regulated, they're disclosed, they're capped donations from billionaires and small donors.

We don't know who these people are. We don't know what they want.

We don't know who these people are. We don't know what they want.

There is very little disclosure, and that's a bigger problem that we have in politics. And the political parties are still capped. So the super packs and billionaires are doing whatever they want with no rules and no limitations, and the political parties, who I think we'd want to be the dominant force in politics are no longer dominant force in politics, and that's a problem.

There is very little disclosure, and that's a bigger problem that we have in politics. And the political parties are still capped. So the super packs and billionaires are doing whatever they want with no rules and no limitations, and the political parties, who I think we'd want to be the dominant force in politics are no longer dominant force in politics, and that's a problem.

It's interesting that you say that I want to hear your guys take on this, because Yeah, I grew up worrying about corporate power like that in the nineties, like that was the that was the thing the left really cared about. Then the corporate we called it the corporate media. Now it's now it's become the mainstream media.

It's interesting that you say that I want to hear your guys take on this, because Yeah, I grew up worrying about corporate power like that in the nineties, like that was the that was the thing the left really cared about. Then the corporate we called it the corporate media. Now it's now it's become the mainstream media.

Uh.

Uh.

And you would say, look, big oil is doing this, and it's and so on and so forth, and it corporate power replaced you know, labor power, environmentalists, women's groups, other coalitions that backed the Democrats in the seventies. And so that's why we understood it in that kind of dialectic. But your point is a really fascinating one because just last week and the week before, we were covering this race in Portland, Oregon. I don't know if you guys followed this at all at sam you wouldn't have because it's a Democratic primary.

And you would say, look, big oil is doing this, and it's and so on and so forth, and it corporate power replaced you know, labor power, environmentalists, women's groups, other coalitions that backed the Democrats in the seventies. And so that's why we understood it in that kind of dialectic. But your point is a really fascinating one because just last week and the week before, we were covering this race in Portland, Oregon. I don't know if you guys followed this at all at sam you wouldn't have because it's a Democratic primary.

Who cares. I love democratic primaries.

Who cares. I love democratic primaries.

It was an organ Oregon's third district, Parmila Giapaul's sister was running and uh in an open, open race or a bluomen Hour retired and Apac decides that it's going to you know, weigh in against Giapaul's sister. But because a pack has a kind of toxic relationship with Portland, they're not going to come in and be like, we think that Israel's war is going great, and we support this liberal democrat, because then everybody would just say, well, we're voting for Giapaul. So they created basically fake super PACs, like they just propped up brand new superpacks and dropped millions of dollars into them at the very end so that they didn't have to disclose until, you know, after the after the election had already had.

It was an organ Oregon's third district, Parmila Giapaul's sister was running and uh in an open, open race or a bluomen Hour retired and Apac decides that it's going to you know, weigh in against Giapaul's sister. But because a pack has a kind of toxic relationship with Portland, they're not going to come in and be like, we think that Israel's war is going great, and we support this liberal democrat, because then everybody would just say, well, we're voting for Giapaul. So they created basically fake super PACs, like they just propped up brand new superpacks and dropped millions of dollars into them at the very end so that they didn't have to disclose until, you know, after the after the election had already had.

It's like a domestic version of the European Center for Modern Kah And it's just a shell group that Podesta and Manaport and.

It's like a domestic version of the European Center for Modern Kah And it's just a shell group that Podesta and Manaport and.

So boom, they pick a member of Congress just with this, with this maneuvering.

So boom, they pick a member of Congress just with this, with this maneuvering.

What is that? What does that do to Washington?

What is that? What does that do to Washington?

Like?

Like?

Or is it in some ways a sideshow that it that it affects American policy towards Israel, But otherwise everything else just kind of goes on as it was, and members just know like, Okay, if I step out a line on Israel, pile sign, I could have some completely random super pack at Nukemi.

Or is it in some ways a sideshow that it that it affects American policy towards Israel, But otherwise everything else just kind of goes on as it was, and members just know like, Okay, if I step out a line on Israel, pile sign, I could have some completely random super pack at Nukemi.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I think the same thing happens with corporate America.

I mean, I think the same thing happens with corporate America.

I mean, I remember stories a decade ago when Harry Reid was running for reelection, and the pharmaceugal industry would come into the lastecond and support Harry Reid, and as a result, Harry Reid owed the pharmaceupal companies when he got back to Congress.

I mean, I remember stories a decade ago when Harry Reid was running for reelection, and the pharmaceugal industry would come into the lastecond and support Harry Reid, and as a result, Harry Reid owed the pharmaceupal companies when he got back to Congress.

Yeah, that was Obamacare, right, cut a one hundred and fifty million dollars deal.

Yeah, that was Obamacare, right, cut a one hundred and fifty million dollars deal.

Right.

Right.

More recently, I heard a great story that big tech companies, when these anti tech bills were moving through or there was a question of whether it be a Senate vote, big tech industry went out to a couple of key states, ran tons of ads and basically sent the message, we will destroy you if you vote for this bill. And there was no vote on that bill.

More recently, I heard a great story that big tech companies, when these anti tech bills were moving through or there was a question of whether it be a Senate vote, big tech industry went out to a couple of key states, ran tons of ads and basically sent the message, we will destroy you if you vote for this bill. And there was no vote on that bill.

The bitcoin folks did that in twenty twenty two. If you followed, they'd like jumped into a bunch of races.

The bitcoin folks did that in twenty twenty two. If you followed, they'd like jumped into a bunch of races.

Sank free.

Sank free.

Actually, yeah, right, you're sending a message that And I think the point here is that you know, the govern and the president and Congress are incredibly powerful, but not as powerful as big companies. At times, when big companies they come in and take people out. That means that these members of Congress, who again exist to get reelected, are going to be careful and not want to go against corporate America.

Actually, yeah, right, you're sending a message that And I think the point here is that you know, the govern and the president and Congress are incredibly powerful, but not as powerful as big companies. At times, when big companies they come in and take people out. That means that these members of Congress, who again exist to get reelected, are going to be careful and not want to go against corporate America.

Yeah, I mean that's incredibly interesting. One question for Sam just sort of about the vibes on Case Street right now, because I don't think mostly when you're talking to lobbyists, they're like sort of what people would imagine as the elite, coastal elite, sort of in their bubbles. You those, Sam, And last time we had you on the show, you did this fantastic report on what the differences between you know, the what is the Problem Solver's Caucus, right, the sort of elite coastal moderates and Justice Democrats and the Freedom Caucus who have more populous constituents and constituents and also actually lower secioeconomic constituents on average. I feel like you really understand populism in a way that the rest of the lobbying industry does not, even though it's in their interest to understand it.

Yeah, I mean that's incredibly interesting. One question for Sam just sort of about the vibes on Case Street right now, because I don't think mostly when you're talking to lobbyists, they're like sort of what people would imagine as the elite, coastal elite, sort of in their bubbles. You those, Sam, And last time we had you on the show, you did this fantastic report on what the differences between you know, the what is the Problem Solver's Caucus, right, the sort of elite coastal moderates and Justice Democrats and the Freedom Caucus who have more populous constituents and constituents and also actually lower secioeconomic constituents on average. I feel like you really understand populism in a way that the rest of the lobbying industry does not, even though it's in their interest to understand it.

Right, So what's the vibe? Give us a vibe check? Like, what are other people missing? If anything?

Right, So what's the vibe? Give us a vibe check? Like, what are other people missing? If anything?

I think there's some that have their heads kind of stuck in the sand and think that things just can't and won't ever change. And the last time we were on we talked about, you know, the economic breakdown of some of the poorest congressional districts in the country, which surprises a lot of people. Republicans have a lot more the richest congressional districts in the country were held by Democrats. We myself and two business partners created the first minority owned bipartisan lobbying firm in the history of Washington, DC. A lot of people snickered, you know, it doesn't do fabulously well financially. I mean, the partnership's fun and we have a lot of fun working on the issues we work on, and we try to identify regressive issues, you know, whether it's you know, higher gas prices or tax on tobacco products that just are punitive to poor constituencies. And after COVID, you know, you can find a million stats that show the middle class has been completely wiped out, the wealthier getting wealthier, the poor getting poor, and there's there's no more middle class.

I think there's some that have their heads kind of stuck in the sand and think that things just can't and won't ever change. And the last time we were on we talked about, you know, the economic breakdown of some of the poorest congressional districts in the country, which surprises a lot of people. Republicans have a lot more the richest congressional districts in the country were held by Democrats. We myself and two business partners created the first minority owned bipartisan lobbying firm in the history of Washington, DC. A lot of people snickered, you know, it doesn't do fabulously well financially. I mean, the partnership's fun and we have a lot of fun working on the issues we work on, and we try to identify regressive issues, you know, whether it's you know, higher gas prices or tax on tobacco products that just are punitive to poor constituencies. And after COVID, you know, you can find a million stats that show the middle class has been completely wiped out, the wealthier getting wealthier, the poor getting poor, and there's there's no more middle class.

Politicians have one job. It's just to get re elected.

Politicians have one job. It's just to get re elected.

It's not to collect campaign checks, it's not to talk to lobbyists, it's not to do any of the things that I think a lot of people assume it is. It's to get re elected, and the best way to get re elected is take positions your constituents want you to take. So, you know, with with the elimination of the middle class and these poor constituencies looking at different parties in a way that they haven't. You know, recent polling shows Trump's doing really well with black and Hispanic voters, and I think Trump, you know, supercharged a lot of this populism and a lot of this coalition shifting. When I was on Capitol Hill, you know, the Republican orthodoxy was the social issues Second Amendment, abortion, reducing regulations and corporate taxes and fighting the trial bar with like maybe a fourth leg of the stool being you know, bash unions. Today, only one legs stand solidly. It's abortion and gun rights. And if you think that the reason Republicans are taking those positions is for campaign.

It's not to collect campaign checks, it's not to talk to lobbyists, it's not to do any of the things that I think a lot of people assume it is. It's to get re elected, and the best way to get re elected is take positions your constituents want you to take. So, you know, with with the elimination of the middle class and these poor constituencies looking at different parties in a way that they haven't. You know, recent polling shows Trump's doing really well with black and Hispanic voters, and I think Trump, you know, supercharged a lot of this populism and a lot of this coalition shifting. When I was on Capitol Hill, you know, the Republican orthodoxy was the social issues Second Amendment, abortion, reducing regulations and corporate taxes and fighting the trial bar with like maybe a fourth leg of the stool being you know, bash unions. Today, only one legs stand solidly. It's abortion and gun rights. And if you think that the reason Republicans are taking those positions is for campaign.

Checks, I've got news for you. That's not why they do it.

Checks, I've got news for you. That's not why they do it.

Mike Bloomberg spent a gazillion dollars on gun safety bills and hired lobbyists all over town, and the NRA went bankrupt, and they're still powerful because they got a lot of people that live in congressional districts that tell their members how they want them to vote.

Mike Bloomberg spent a gazillion dollars on gun safety bills and hired lobbyists all over town, and the NRA went bankrupt, and they're still powerful because they got a lot of people that live in congressional districts that tell their members how they want them to vote.

Do you think most lobbyists spend a lot of time with the type of people who would either vote for Donald Trump or Bernie Sanders.

Do you think most lobbyists spend a lot of time with the type of people who would either vote for Donald Trump or Bernie Sanders.

I'm shaking her head over here.

I'm shaking her head over here.

Yeah I do.

Yeah I do.

I mean, I think you're somewhat of an anomaly.

I mean, I think you're somewhat of an anomaly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that a lot of a lot of people in the industry would just like to see this this time come and go, and I personally think we're stuck with this.

I think that a lot of a lot of people in the industry would just like to see this this time come and go, and I personally think we're stuck with this.

I think something that's fascinating along the same lines is last year, I did a study at the Geral where I took the hundredths one hundred poorest districts in the country and just put whether they're represented by a Republican or Democrat. Ten years ago, sixty three out of the hundred districts were represented by Democrats. And that's what we would think poor urban districts. In the last election, it was literally the opposite. Sixty three of the one hundred were represented by Republicans, which are rural Trump districts.

I think something that's fascinating along the same lines is last year, I did a study at the Geral where I took the hundredths one hundred poorest districts in the country and just put whether they're represented by a Republican or Democrat. Ten years ago, sixty three out of the hundred districts were represented by Democrats. And that's what we would think poor urban districts. In the last election, it was literally the opposite. Sixty three of the one hundred were represented by Republicans, which are rural Trump districts.

And the point is.

And the point is.

That that's your Republican party. It's not the Republican party that we think of a lot of republic party right about the book is the Reagan pro business, free trade, cut, corporate tax.

That that's your Republican party. It's not the Republican party that we think of a lot of republic party right about the book is the Reagan pro business, free trade, cut, corporate tax.

That party isn't really there anymore, and we're passing to see how that changes.

That party isn't really there anymore, and we're passing to see how that changes.

Yeah, and so you've got a lot of progressive Democrats, like you said, not taking corporate pack money anymore, not as many as it should be.

Yeah, and so you've got a lot of progressive Democrats, like you said, not taking corporate pack money anymore, not as many as it should be.

It's in the dozens.

It's in the dozens.

It's pathetic how low it is, but it's it's the trend is in that direction. And then you've got a lot of these populist Republicans as well. So how is how is corporate America adapting?

It's pathetic how low it is, but it's it's the trend is in that direction. And then you've got a lot of these populist Republicans as well. So how is how is corporate America adapting?

I think it's I think right now. I mean the lobby so I talked to our sounds crazy, are literally scared. I mean the people who they normally go to, the people who they normally go to for help aren't there anymore.

I think it's I think right now. I mean the lobby so I talked to our sounds crazy, are literally scared. I mean the people who they normally go to, the people who they normally go to for help aren't there anymore.

A good example is Josh Holly.

A good example is Josh Holly.

Josh Holly represents Missouri, not a state that's doing well these days. He is a Republican. I'm sure he used to be a Reagan Republican. He has three bills right now with Elizabeth Warren. One would cap credit card fees, which is like a great idea if you're a Democrat.

Josh Holly represents Missouri, not a state that's doing well these days. He is a Republican. I'm sure he used to be a Reagan Republican. He has three bills right now with Elizabeth Warren. One would cap credit card fees, which is like a great idea if you're a Democrat.

This is a Republican, weren't from a wealthy coastal state, right right.

This is a Republican, weren't from a wealthy coastal state, right right.

He's got a build to make it easier to join labor unions, and he's got a bill to claw back bonuses for banks and fail and these are all terrific ideas if you're a Democrat. The fact that a Republican is on those like they're probably even talk to Ellazith Warner's kind of uh, kind of amazing right now, Liz Warren. And so I mean that just shows how the party is changing. And it seems like every time a pro business Reagan iit, Senator eves like Rob Portman, you get a JD. Vance who's much more populist replacement, and the Senate and the House needed to be slowly changing that direction. Another example, a year and a half ago, there was a bill in Congress to give the Federal Trade Commission to give the federal government more money and more power to look into and block corporate mergers. This is something that Republicans would be against forever, giving the government more power to look into corporate mergers.

He's got a build to make it easier to join labor unions, and he's got a bill to claw back bonuses for banks and fail and these are all terrific ideas if you're a Democrat. The fact that a Republican is on those like they're probably even talk to Ellazith Warner's kind of uh, kind of amazing right now, Liz Warren. And so I mean that just shows how the party is changing. And it seems like every time a pro business Reagan iit, Senator eves like Rob Portman, you get a JD. Vance who's much more populist replacement, and the Senate and the House needed to be slowly changing that direction. Another example, a year and a half ago, there was a bill in Congress to give the Federal Trade Commission to give the federal government more money and more power to look into and block corporate mergers. This is something that Republicans would be against forever, giving the government more power to look into corporate mergers.

Forty actually it was thirty nine House Republicans voted for that bill.

Forty actually it was thirty nine House Republicans voted for that bill.

So basically, tax big companies to give the government more power to look into corporate mergers.

So basically, tax big companies to give the government more power to look into corporate mergers.

I mean, the political world is changing here.

I mean, the political world is changing here.

But here's what I mean about Washington adapting to this new system. As soon as there's this populist wave and as soon as people start to get control of their members of Congress again, like all right, now Hawley is responsive to actual Missouri Republicans.

But here's what I mean about Washington adapting to this new system. As soon as there's this populist wave and as soon as people start to get control of their members of Congress again, like all right, now Hawley is responsive to actual Missouri Republicans.

All of a sudden, lawmakers don't matter anymore.

All of a sudden, lawmakers don't matter anymore.

And it's just what they call the bi for uh, you know, the Senate leaders, the Senate Democratic Leader, Senate Republican Leader, House Democratic Leader, House Republican Leader, and then you've got four hundred and thirty three NPC's basically on in the House, who are just kind of told what the deal is that was struck between these big four. You and I were talking last night about how it was much more interesting how things were able to get done, say, ten years ago. But now just as people are getting a hold of the system, the system is like, actually, we're not doing it like that anymore.

And it's just what they call the bi for uh, you know, the Senate leaders, the Senate Democratic Leader, Senate Republican Leader, House Democratic Leader, House Republican Leader, and then you've got four hundred and thirty three NPC's basically on in the House, who are just kind of told what the deal is that was struck between these big four. You and I were talking last night about how it was much more interesting how things were able to get done, say, ten years ago. But now just as people are getting a hold of the system, the system is like, actually, we're not doing it like that anymore.

Right.

Right.

The collapse of regular order, which is you know, how a bill be comes along, you know, the Schoolhouse rock. You know, it passes the House committee, a committee, a committee, the House, the floor of the House of Representatives goes over to the Senate. Senate goes to this similar process and then if the bills are different in anyway.

The collapse of regular order, which is you know, how a bill be comes along, you know, the Schoolhouse rock. You know, it passes the House committee, a committee, a committee, the House, the floor of the House of Representatives goes over to the Senate. Senate goes to this similar process and then if the bills are different in anyway.

At all, they're cut there.

At all, they're cut there.

You know, they call it a conference committee where the you know, there's there's compromises worked out, and then it goes to the White House for either a signature or veto. And I don't have the stats on this, but my guess is the bills that go through regular order in the last five six election cycles, you know, Congresses, this really really limited.

You know, they call it a conference committee where the you know, there's there's compromises worked out, and then it goes to the White House for either a signature or veto. And I don't have the stats on this, but my guess is the bills that go through regular order in the last five six election cycles, you know, Congresses, this really really limited.

So it used to used to be the case back.

So it used to used to be the case back.

In the Podesta manifort, you know Tommy Bogg's era, where if you had the ear of an important chairman, say the Banking Committee chairman or the Appropriations Committee chairman, that chairman decided he was with you as a lobbyist and was going to insert your language and a bill. The whole system is different in that, you know, that smoke filled room or that quiet conversation was quietly inserted and voted on, and the and the members on both sides kind of were team players in a way that they just currently aren't.

In the Podesta manifort, you know Tommy Bogg's era, where if you had the ear of an important chairman, say the Banking Committee chairman or the Appropriations Committee chairman, that chairman decided he was with you as a lobbyist and was going to insert your language and a bill. The whole system is different in that, you know, that smoke filled room or that quiet conversation was quietly inserted and voted on, and the and the members on both sides kind of were team players in a way that they just currently aren't.

Yeah, we'll let that slide.

Yeah, we'll let that slide.

Who care, Yes, the chairman wants it, this is his, you know, the prerogative of the chairman, and you know, the leaders were inclined to help the chairman, and before you knew it, you know, your language is stuffed in an appropriations bill or some other type of vehicle that's going to become law. These days, you know, members towing the line for their chairman is I don't want to say it's not done, because it still is. But the amount of media coverage from websites or mainstream media or you know, bloggers makes everything such a transparent process. There's so much pressure on these members from different constituencies that care about different issues, where these things really get nitpicked, and it's cratered the whole kind of legislative experience in a way where they're not getting almost anything done through committees anymore. And we have these, you know, these fits where we kind of bump up against the deadline and we have to fund the federal government and you know we'll pass we call it a Christmas Tree omnibus type legislator vehicle that has you know, some stuff that Chuck Schumer wants, some stuff that Mike Johnson wants, and you know, it passes. And it's kind of how the Ukraine Israel funding kind of came to be.

Who care, Yes, the chairman wants it, this is his, you know, the prerogative of the chairman, and you know, the leaders were inclined to help the chairman, and before you knew it, you know, your language is stuffed in an appropriations bill or some other type of vehicle that's going to become law. These days, you know, members towing the line for their chairman is I don't want to say it's not done, because it still is. But the amount of media coverage from websites or mainstream media or you know, bloggers makes everything such a transparent process. There's so much pressure on these members from different constituencies that care about different issues, where these things really get nitpicked, and it's cratered the whole kind of legislative experience in a way where they're not getting almost anything done through committees anymore. And we have these, you know, these fits where we kind of bump up against the deadline and we have to fund the federal government and you know we'll pass we call it a Christmas Tree omnibus type legislator vehicle that has you know, some stuff that Chuck Schumer wants, some stuff that Mike Johnson wants, and you know, it passes. And it's kind of how the Ukraine Israel funding kind of came to be.

You know, enough people decided something.

You know, enough people decided something.

Had to happen where you know, the Big Four hash it out rather than the Foreign Affairs Committee.

Had to happen where you know, the Big Four hash it out rather than the Foreign Affairs Committee.

So if you're a lobbyist, then how do you do it?

So if you're a lobbyist, then how do you do it?

Like, how do you You just have to have somebody who knows Chuck Schumer and they'll get it in.

Like, how do you You just have to have somebody who knows Chuck Schumer and they'll get it in.

Yeah, you know, I was gonna rewind for a quick history lesson or a reminder. So before Watergate, power was held by the government in based by three people, the President, the House Speaker, and the sena MAJORI leader. They were all guys and there are just a few lobbyists. And if they had a relationship with those one of those three or two or those three, you get anything done you want.

Yeah, you know, I was gonna rewind for a quick history lesson or a reminder. So before Watergate, power was held by the government in based by three people, the President, the House Speaker, and the sena MAJORI leader. They were all guys and there are just a few lobbyists. And if they had a relationship with those one of those three or two or those three, you get anything done you want.

There's less rutiny.

There's less rutiny.

Like you said, after Watergate, the country rebelled against that system. We elected fifty or sixty reformers who came to Washington, who who changed government power and took power from the White House and moved it to Congress and from the cougrecial leaders and push it down to committees and subcommittees and give everyone lots of power, so that tons of people were committee chairman of sub committee chairman, Tommy Boggs, one of the top lobbyists of that era, used to joke that when he went up to Capitol Hill and said, hey, mister chairman, half the people would turn around because have to eat more sub Committee chairman. And it shows a power diffuse that, as Sam is saying, has started to kind of boil back together, where power is going back to just the House lead House and Senate leaders and the White House. If Trump is elected, that's reelected, that's really going to push things back to the White House again. I mean Trump just openly doesn't do anything in Congress. He just legislates and tries to create laws through the executive branch and through executive orders. So I think that if he is re elected, we're going to go back to that era where there's just a handful of really important lobbyists. Power will be not just in the Trump administration, but really just in the White House or really just in the Oble Office. I mean, he just does things on his own, So it's really going to bring us back to an era that we sort of moved from.

Like you said, after Watergate, the country rebelled against that system. We elected fifty or sixty reformers who came to Washington, who who changed government power and took power from the White House and moved it to Congress and from the cougrecial leaders and push it down to committees and subcommittees and give everyone lots of power, so that tons of people were committee chairman of sub committee chairman, Tommy Boggs, one of the top lobbyists of that era, used to joke that when he went up to Capitol Hill and said, hey, mister chairman, half the people would turn around because have to eat more sub Committee chairman. And it shows a power diffuse that, as Sam is saying, has started to kind of boil back together, where power is going back to just the House lead House and Senate leaders and the White House. If Trump is elected, that's reelected, that's really going to push things back to the White House again. I mean Trump just openly doesn't do anything in Congress. He just legislates and tries to create laws through the executive branch and through executive orders. So I think that if he is re elected, we're going to go back to that era where there's just a handful of really important lobbyists. Power will be not just in the Trump administration, but really just in the White House or really just in the Oble Office. I mean, he just does things on his own, So it's really going to bring us back to an era that we sort of moved from.

That brings me to a.

That brings me to a.

Question I really wanted to put to both of you, based on an anecdote of just of my own. I was once in a green room with a fairly high profile media personality, and I think I was ranting about lobbying or something like that, and this person sort of took me aside and said, you know, a lot of people don't realize this, but lobbying is actually a good thing, because otherwise nobody would know what to put in these bills.

Question I really wanted to put to both of you, based on an anecdote of just of my own. I was once in a green room with a fairly high profile media personality, and I think I was ranting about lobbying or something like that, and this person sort of took me aside and said, you know, a lot of people don't realize this, but lobbying is actually a good thing, because otherwise nobody would know what to put in these bills.

The lobbyists are the.

The lobbyists are the.

Only ones who know intimately some of these issues, because congressional staffers are twenty five, have a million things in their portfolio and have no idea what is actually going on in this district in let's say Missouri. So I think that's probably true, but also ridiculous.

Only ones who know intimately some of these issues, because congressional staffers are twenty five, have a million things in their portfolio and have no idea what is actually going on in this district in let's say Missouri. So I think that's probably true, but also ridiculous.

Defense.

Defense.

I still don't want to put that out to both of you to see if you have thoughts on you know, maybe people like myself Ryan rage against the industry. You know, if we got what we wanted, just eliminated at whatever, what are the downsides and that sort of hypethetical world.

I still don't want to put that out to both of you to see if you have thoughts on you know, maybe people like myself Ryan rage against the industry. You know, if we got what we wanted, just eliminated at whatever, what are the downsides and that sort of hypethetical world.

You know.

You know.

I was raised by two very liberal parents. My dad was a criminal defense attorney who represented violent criminals, and he raised me saying that you know, you may not like my clients, but their rights to be defended make this country great.

I was raised by two very liberal parents. My dad was a criminal defense attorney who represented violent criminals, and he raised me saying that you know, you may not like my clients, but their rights to be defended make this country great.

And I don't know that I necessarily.

And I don't know that I necessarily.

Like bought it when I was a kid, but I used the arguments against this is a good rhetoric. I used it against them when I became a lobbyist, Like my clients deserve the right to complain about Congress speech, Like yeah, like they don't do everything great, and you know, to tell anyone they don't have the right to amplify their voice to complain that they're getting something wrong. And the more you get to know members of Congress, the more you know they definitely aren not exactly getting things exactly right. So you know, it's the first Amendment. And I'm proud to you know, represent my clients and tell staff or the members themselves why we think they got it wrong.

Like bought it when I was a kid, but I used the arguments against this is a good rhetoric. I used it against them when I became a lobbyist, Like my clients deserve the right to complain about Congress speech, Like yeah, like they don't do everything great, and you know, to tell anyone they don't have the right to amplify their voice to complain that they're getting something wrong. And the more you get to know members of Congress, the more you know they definitely aren not exactly getting things exactly right. So you know, it's the first Amendment. And I'm proud to you know, represent my clients and tell staff or the members themselves why we think they got it wrong.

And do you think they appreciate it sometimes because they genuinely are unaware of things that you bring to them.

And do you think they appreciate it sometimes because they genuinely are unaware of things that you bring to them.

Yeah, I mean depends if we're going in with someone that's really working hard against what we're trying to accomplish. But yeah, for the most part, you know, you know, we have a lot of clients, so you know, it's not in my business model to you know, kind of blow up one relationship over one single issue. So you know, I, you know, sometimes I go in and it's for something very good that everyone here would think it's the right thing to do, and you know, maybe the next week not.