Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here, and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Very lucky this morning to be joined by the one and only Andrew yang Man, who scarcely needs an introduction, but for those who are not out of course, Yeah, former presidential gan and of course co chair of the Forward Party. Is always great to see you, Andrew.

Very lucky this morning to be joined by the one and only Andrew yang Man, who scarcely needs an introduction, but for those who are not out of course, Yeah, former presidential gan and of course co chair of the Forward Party. Is always great to see you, Andrew.

Good to see you, man.

Good to see you, man.

It's great to be here. Wish it was under a different circumstances. I take it we're going to be debriefing the Trump landslide.

It's great to be here. Wish it was under a different circumstances. I take it we're going to be debriefing the Trump landslide.

Yeah, well, I mean you're one of those people who's in a position to say, hey, I told you so, because you got behind Dean Phillips, who was out there saying listen, guys, Biden is too old, Like, doesn't have to be me, just do something other than Joe Biden. How critical do you think it was that Biden stayed in the race for as long as he did.

Yeah, well, I mean you're one of those people who's in a position to say, hey, I told you so, because you got behind Dean Phillips, who was out there saying listen, guys, Biden is too old, Like, doesn't have to be me, just do something other than Joe Biden. How critical do you think it was that Biden stayed in the race for as long as he did.

Joe Biden essentially delivered the White House back to Donald Trump by not getting out of the way in January, and full credit to Dean for risking his career. The Dems, in true Demi fashion, decided to malign him, primary him, get him out of the picture because they were more offended that someone was actually cutting the line than making the right case for the country.

Joe Biden essentially delivered the White House back to Donald Trump by not getting out of the way in January, and full credit to Dean for risking his career. The Dems, in true Demi fashion, decided to malign him, primary him, get him out of the picture because they were more offended that someone was actually cutting the line than making the right case for the country.

He was correct.

He was correct.

Then Joe Biden ends up dropping out less than six months later, and it was a train wreck. If they'd had a primary in January, you could have seen a very very competitive ticket emerge.

Then Joe Biden ends up dropping out less than six months later, and it was a train wreck. If they'd had a primary in January, you could have seen a very very competitive ticket emerge.

Let's call it Joshapiro and Gretchen Whitmer.

Let's call it Joshapiro and Gretchen Whitmer.

You then have two of the three crucial swing states probably in your column. You win Wisconsin and you win the whole thing. But we'll never know because instead it was Jojo Joe all the way. And if you can sense some emotion in my voice, we should all be tick off, particularly Dean Phillips, because Dean Phillips was right all along.

You then have two of the three crucial swing states probably in your column. You win Wisconsin and you win the whole thing. But we'll never know because instead it was Jojo Joe all the way. And if you can sense some emotion in my voice, we should all be tick off, particularly Dean Phillips, because Dean Phillips was right all along.

Can I ask you just a little bit more about that, Andrew, because you know there's been reporting that came out after Biden had that disastrous debate that was like, yeah, donors had seen this was really not good. He had some meeting with congressional leaders like a long time ago, where he couldn't finish his sentences. Nancy Pelosi had to jump in, and then they just stopped having those meetings altogether. So this had all happened before Dean jumped in and was saying, guys, come on, I'm pulling the alarm bell, like you have to do something. So I just want to know behind the scenes, like what was going on. Were they in denial they just thought that they could cover it up. What was the thought process behind the scenes, to the best of your knowledge?

Can I ask you just a little bit more about that, Andrew, because you know there's been reporting that came out after Biden had that disastrous debate that was like, yeah, donors had seen this was really not good. He had some meeting with congressional leaders like a long time ago, where he couldn't finish his sentences. Nancy Pelosi had to jump in, and then they just stopped having those meetings altogether. So this had all happened before Dean jumped in and was saying, guys, come on, I'm pulling the alarm bell, like you have to do something. So I just want to know behind the scenes, like what was going on. Were they in denial they just thought that they could cover it up. What was the thought process behind the scenes, to the best of your knowledge?

Oh yeah, it was kind of knowledge.

Oh yeah, it was kind of knowledge.

And there were people saying to Dean, I agree with you, I'm glad you're doing this.

And there were people saying to Dean, I agree with you, I'm glad you're doing this.

But then they would be mum in public.

But then they would be mum in public.

And the truth is that the rank and file DEM office holder cared more about their place in the totem pole and whether the party was on track to win in November. That's the disease of this current system is that look, you know, I've got my career progression, I've got my entire jam. What happens to the country, what happens to the people, families, communities a distant secondary or tertiary consideration that.

And the truth is that the rank and file DEM office holder cared more about their place in the totem pole and whether the party was on track to win in November. That's the disease of this current system is that look, you know, I've got my career progression, I've got my entire jam. What happens to the country, what happens to the people, families, communities a distant secondary or tertiary consideration that.

Is absolutely devastating.

Is absolutely devastating.

That is really Andrew, I wanted to talk to you more about this loss and kind of where things go from here. What is your like, what is your theory of some of the different ways that the Democrats got it wrong?

That is really Andrew, I wanted to talk to you more about this loss and kind of where things go from here. What is your like, what is your theory of some of the different ways that the Democrats got it wrong?

You know, I was joking that instead of calling themselves the Democrats, they should start calling themselves the Selectors, because if you'd actually had a real competitive primary, you're not in this mess. They still even had a chance to have a hurried primary.

You know, I was joking that instead of calling themselves the Democrats, they should start calling themselves the Selectors, because if you'd actually had a real competitive primary, you're not in this mess. They still even had a chance to have a hurried primary.

When Joe dropped out in July, and instead it was just the elevation of Kamala.

When Joe dropped out in July, and instead it was just the elevation of Kamala.

I made a list of recommendations with the Democratic Party in Politico a few days ago that I say.

I made a list of recommendations with the Democratic Party in Politico a few days ago that I say.

In the p they will totally ignore these.

In the p they will totally ignore these.

One of them is to make Dean Phillips the chair of the DNC as the only person who had the integrity to stake his career on what was right for the country. Another is apologize to Bernie Sanders for sandbagging him in twenty sixteen. In my opinion, if Bernie's the nominee, then Trump never becomes president in twenty sixteen. So there are a bunch of things that you'd hope that they would take from this, but you don't actually have any optimism that they will because the dynamic I described before is that there are now various people jocking to be the party's nominee in twenty eight and again it's about them and their place and the party and not necessarily preventing this loss, you know, I mean, it was a landslide loss that, as my friend Dean Phillips said, was both predictable and preventable.

One of them is to make Dean Phillips the chair of the DNC as the only person who had the integrity to stake his career on what was right for the country. Another is apologize to Bernie Sanders for sandbagging him in twenty sixteen. In my opinion, if Bernie's the nominee, then Trump never becomes president in twenty sixteen. So there are a bunch of things that you'd hope that they would take from this, but you don't actually have any optimism that they will because the dynamic I described before is that there are now various people jocking to be the party's nominee in twenty eight and again it's about them and their place and the party and not necessarily preventing this loss, you know, I mean, it was a landslide loss that, as my friend Dean Phillips said, was both predictable and preventable.

Yeah. Well, I think there's a few things I want to pick up on there from your comments. I want to come back to your assessment that Bernie would have won in twenty sixteen, because you and Bernie don't have exactly the same ideologies. I'm curious about your analysis there, which of course I agree with, but I want to hear your perspective on that. But the one thing I wanted to ask you about first is, you know, it's also a real indictment of Gretchen Whitmer, Gavin Newsom, these people who you know, could have jumped into a Democratic primary and really forced the issue. And yeah, they would have been It would have been tough and people would have been mad at them whatever. But if you've got the governor of California, the governor of Michigan, some actual heavy hitters in the Democratic primary, it makes it much more difficult to just effectively cancel the primary, which is what they truly did. Obviously they had no debates and on certain states they just literally canceled the primary and blocked Marian and Dean and Jank and anyone else from getting on the ballot. So how much of an indictment do you see this? As you know, the people who are supposed to be the big star players coming up in the Democratic Party and their own career ambition and cowardice when it came down to it.

Yeah. Well, I think there's a few things I want to pick up on there from your comments. I want to come back to your assessment that Bernie would have won in twenty sixteen, because you and Bernie don't have exactly the same ideologies. I'm curious about your analysis there, which of course I agree with, but I want to hear your perspective on that. But the one thing I wanted to ask you about first is, you know, it's also a real indictment of Gretchen Whitmer, Gavin Newsom, these people who you know, could have jumped into a Democratic primary and really forced the issue. And yeah, they would have been It would have been tough and people would have been mad at them whatever. But if you've got the governor of California, the governor of Michigan, some actual heavy hitters in the Democratic primary, it makes it much more difficult to just effectively cancel the primary, which is what they truly did. Obviously they had no debates and on certain states they just literally canceled the primary and blocked Marian and Dean and Jank and anyone else from getting on the ballot. So how much of an indictment do you see this? As you know, the people who are supposed to be the big star players coming up in the Democratic Party and their own career ambition and cowardice when it came down to it.

Yeah, it's not very presidential to just be like, I be able to wait until I have the blessing of the powers that be. And certainly Gavin Newsome and JB. Pritzker are well known to have had campaigns in waiting. But as someone who ran for president, guys, if you wait for the right time, there.

Yeah, it's not very presidential to just be like, I be able to wait until I have the blessing of the powers that be. And certainly Gavin Newsome and JB. Pritzker are well known to have had campaigns in waiting. But as someone who ran for president, guys, if you wait for the right time, there.

May never be a right time.

May never be a right time.

You know, the right time is the right time for the freaking country, not necessarily your professional prospects. Again, it's one reason why Dean Phillips has my eternal admiration because he clearly did.

You know, the right time is the right time for the freaking country, not necessarily your professional prospects. Again, it's one reason why Dean Phillips has my eternal admiration because he clearly did.

Not have his professional his political.

Not have his professional his political.

Future advied, and his career has been ended as a result. Politically, though, you guys think that, you know, he could easily rise like a phoenix, which he could because everyone now knows that he did the right thing. But that's unusual in American politics. We have a system that rewards cowardice and conformity and careerism and will punish courage.

Future advied, and his career has been ended as a result. Politically, though, you guys think that, you know, he could easily rise like a phoenix, which he could because everyone now knows that he did the right thing. But that's unusual in American politics. We have a system that rewards cowardice and conformity and careerism and will punish courage.

And that's one reason we're in this mess.

And that's one reason we're in this mess.

Yeah, and Andrew. One of the things that you were originally one of the ways a lot of people heard about you is from the Joe Roe podcasts. There's been a lot of Rogan discourse around this. I know you've said that that Kamala should have gone on Joe Rogan, But what do you think that the shunning of Rogan, not even just necessarily by the party, but even by Kamala Harris herself, what does that say about the democratic loss that led to Donald Trump.

Yeah, and Andrew. One of the things that you were originally one of the ways a lot of people heard about you is from the Joe Roe podcasts. There's been a lot of Rogan discourse around this. I know you've said that that Kamala should have gone on Joe Rogan, But what do you think that the shunning of Rogan, not even just necessarily by the party, but even by Kamala Harris herself, what does that say about the democratic loss that led to Donald Trump.

No, when she didn't go on Rogan, I thought to myself, either they have a really big lead their private pole leg or this is a massive mistake, and one of the reasons why, in my view, the Democrats lost this race is that there has been this attack of people that on people that are outside of their orthodoxy, and certainly Joe Rogan has been, you know, mercilessly attacked. I've taken you know, a couple of slings and arrows, like who knows, they might even have hit you guys just for fun. Pretty much anyone who's.

No, when she didn't go on Rogan, I thought to myself, either they have a really big lead their private pole leg or this is a massive mistake, and one of the reasons why, in my view, the Democrats lost this race is that there has been this attack of people that on people that are outside of their orthodoxy, and certainly Joe Rogan has been, you know, mercilessly attacked. I've taken you know, a couple of slings and arrows, like who knows, they might even have hit you guys just for fun. Pretty much anyone who's.

Like outside of the machide.

Like outside of the machide.

And it turns out that most of us are outside of the machine. But that doesn't mean that, you know, like to me, Joe Rogan would have been completely fair and inquisitive and open minded. If Kamala and Tim Walls had come on, it would have been a massive boost for their campaign, and the fact that they didn't come on to me again speaks to the.

And it turns out that most of us are outside of the machine. But that doesn't mean that, you know, like to me, Joe Rogan would have been completely fair and inquisitive and open minded. If Kamala and Tim Walls had come on, it would have been a massive boost for their campaign, and the fact that they didn't come on to me again speaks to the.

Careerism and the risk aversion. You know.

Careerism and the risk aversion. You know.

It's like you look at it and you think, objectively, Okay, we're trying to win. You should do this, but let's not make any mistakes. Don't want anyone to look bad. That's a great way to lose.

It's like you look at it and you think, objectively, Okay, we're trying to win. You should do this, but let's not make any mistakes. Don't want anyone to look bad. That's a great way to lose.

Yeah, although you know, I mean to be honest with you. The more devastating point is that they may have actually made the right decision, because I'm not sure that she does hold up well over the course of a two three hour conversation. When she had her weakest moments was actually when she was being asked just to talk about herself, like, hey, who are you to your values? You know, it was like, oh, I didn't study for this one, So I'm not sure they actually made you have a primary Bingo's that's the real that's the real core of the problem. But just to get back, you know, your analysis that you think Bernie would have defeated Trump in twenty sixteen, the DNC shouldn't moved habn Inner to block him from Assenti's the Democratic nomination. You know, I've my analysis of why that could be the case. Of course, we'll never know for sure, but I am curious your thought process that leads you to that analysis.

Yeah, although you know, I mean to be honest with you. The more devastating point is that they may have actually made the right decision, because I'm not sure that she does hold up well over the course of a two three hour conversation. When she had her weakest moments was actually when she was being asked just to talk about herself, like, hey, who are you to your values? You know, it was like, oh, I didn't study for this one, So I'm not sure they actually made you have a primary Bingo's that's the real that's the real core of the problem. But just to get back, you know, your analysis that you think Bernie would have defeated Trump in twenty sixteen, the DNC shouldn't moved habn Inner to block him from Assenti's the Democratic nomination. You know, I've my analysis of why that could be the case. Of course, we'll never know for sure, but I am curious your thought process that leads you to that analysis.

No.

No.

One of the interesting things about having been a candidate in this context, Crystal is you know there are times when a person and a campaign meets the moment, and Bernie was the person on the moment in twenty sixteen.

One of the interesting things about having been a candidate in this context, Crystal is you know there are times when a person and a campaign meets the moment, and Bernie was the person on the moment in twenty sixteen.

He just had a ton of popular energy.

He just had a ton of popular energy.

I donated to him, you know, like I heard him speak, and I was like, oh my gosh, like this guy's spot on, Like I can't not donate, so I, you know, donated Bernie's campaign in sixteen. He just had the will of the people behind him, and standing against him was the Clinton machine. And by the way, I mean you think about the sixteen primary, it's like, why was it just Bernie and Hillary? It was because the word went out among the Dems. If you run against Hillary, we're gonna shive you.

I donated to him, you know, like I heard him speak, and I was like, oh my gosh, like this guy's spot on, Like I can't not donate, so I, you know, donated Bernie's campaign in sixteen. He just had the will of the people behind him, and standing against him was the Clinton machine. And by the way, I mean you think about the sixteen primary, it's like, why was it just Bernie and Hillary? It was because the word went out among the Dems. If you run against Hillary, we're gonna shive you.

It's a career. Ender you run against Joe, it's a career and we're gonna shive you.

It's a career. Ender you run against Joe, it's a career and we're gonna shive you.

Like so, so Bernie was the only person again with the courage and patriotism and principle and said, hang it, you guys can't intimidate me out of this.

Like so, so Bernie was the only person again with the courage and patriotism and principle and said, hang it, you guys can't intimidate me out of this.

I'm going to run any o the will of the people. And then if you'd.

I'm going to run any o the will of the people. And then if you'd.

Had him become the Democratic nominee in my opinion. But by the way, there are a lot of folks who migrated from Bernie to Trump over the last number of years, in large part because the like the energy is like, look, you're not an establishment tool. I'm into it, you know. By the way, Like there were a bunch of Trumpers who supported me, because everyone knows you would never send the magical Asian man from the future if you were, like, you know, of the machine. You know, it's like like pretty much if you're not of the machine, like will take a look at you if you're a rank and file, working class voter in this country.

Had him become the Democratic nominee in my opinion. But by the way, there are a lot of folks who migrated from Bernie to Trump over the last number of years, in large part because the like the energy is like, look, you're not an establishment tool. I'm into it, you know. By the way, Like there were a bunch of Trumpers who supported me, because everyone knows you would never send the magical Asian man from the future if you were, like, you know, of the machine. You know, it's like like pretty much if you're not of the machine, like will take a look at you if you're a rank and file, working class voter in this country.

And Bernie had that.

And Bernie had that.

Yeah, I remember doing monologues at the time about how much crossover support that you had amongst Trump's story. I remember I didn't like forty at one point, so as somebody who actually was able to get some Trump support. And clearly that didn't work out so well for the Democrats this time at a structural level, not just with Dean, with the DNC, the consultants and all of that. What do you think should happen? They should be clean house and we should elect new leaders. Is it a primary process or is it even deeper? You've talked about third parties.

Yeah, I remember doing monologues at the time about how much crossover support that you had amongst Trump's story. I remember I didn't like forty at one point, so as somebody who actually was able to get some Trump support. And clearly that didn't work out so well for the Democrats this time at a structural level, not just with Dean, with the DNC, the consultants and all of that. What do you think should happen? They should be clean house and we should elect new leaders. Is it a primary process or is it even deeper? You've talked about third parties.

Well, I think it's deeper.

Well, I think it's deeper.

And if you look at the numbers, as the math guy, the Democrats will probably not have any chance to be competitive in the US Senate in terms of holding the majority for the foreseeable future. Just there are more red states than blue states. You look at each map, it's top So if you're someone who wants any kind of real competition and dynamism and for our country to be able to solve some of these problems, you're going to need a different approach to politics. You had someone like Dan Osborne, who I hope you guys had on born, put deep red Nebraska.

And if you look at the numbers, as the math guy, the Democrats will probably not have any chance to be competitive in the US Senate in terms of holding the majority for the foreseeable future. Just there are more red states than blue states. You look at each map, it's top So if you're someone who wants any kind of real competition and dynamism and for our country to be able to solve some of these problems, you're going to need a different approach to politics. You had someone like Dan Osborne, who I hope you guys had on born, put deep red Nebraska.

In play and ran fourteen points ahead of Kamala in the state. You know.

In play and ran fourteen points ahead of Kamala in the state. You know.

Evan mcmallan did something similar in Utah. The fact is there are many many races around the country where people will not vote for either the Democrat or the Republican and so you need a different approach. And that's what the Forward Party is making happen by backing independence and reform minded people in each party.

Evan mcmallan did something similar in Utah. The fact is there are many many races around the country where people will not vote for either the Democrat or the Republican and so you need a different approach. And that's what the Forward Party is making happen by backing independence and reform minded people in each party.

But this blue red.

But this blue red.

Thing ends in acrimony, tears, problems not being solved, et cetera.

Thing ends in acrimony, tears, problems not being solved, et cetera.

And that's the mass. Well.

And that's the mass. Well.

I love the idea of you getting behind future like Dan Osbourne style candidates, because even though he came up a little short, I mean to put Nebraska in h the way.

I love the idea of you getting behind future like Dan Osbourne style candidates, because even though he came up a little short, I mean to put Nebraska in h the way.

He forced McConnell to spend millions, that's right.

He forced McConnell to spend millions, that's right.

He actually may have ended up saving Jackie Rosen, for example, because they forced Republicans to have to take that race seriously and come in with a bunch of cash, et cetera. So I think that's a really exciting and interesting model for the future. Andrew, just tell people you know where they can follow your work in your analysis.

He actually may have ended up saving Jackie Rosen, for example, because they forced Republicans to have to take that race seriously and come in with a bunch of cash, et cetera. So I think that's a really exciting and interesting model for the future. Andrew, just tell people you know where they can follow your work in your analysis.

Sure if you just go to Andrew Beang on most social media platforms, so we can go to Forward party dot com and see what we're doing. We had twenty five office holders when we are the biggest third party in the country by resources, which I wish was saying more than it actually is.

Sure if you just go to Andrew Beang on most social media platforms, so we can go to Forward party dot com and see what we're doing. We had twenty five office holders when we are the biggest third party in the country by resources, which I wish was saying more than it actually is.

But hey, you know we passed the Greens, the Libertaria.

But hey, you know we passed the Greens, the Libertaria.

Yeah, and we actually do have some really estimable people coming our way because everyone's fed up, like this system's not.

Yeah, and we actually do have some really estimable people coming our way because everyone's fed up, like this system's not.

Going to work. You need a viable third party. We're building it.

Going to work. You need a viable third party. We're building it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, another big disappointment for me on election day was a bunch of the rank choice voting ballot initiatives failed, which I think is really unfortunate because I do think that's a key way to help to build strength outside of the two party system. But we'll have you back to talk about all of that and the path forward there as well. Andrew. Always great to see you.

I mean, another big disappointment for me on election day was a bunch of the rank choice voting ballot initiatives failed, which I think is really unfortunate because I do think that's a key way to help to build strength outside of the two party system. But we'll have you back to talk about all of that and the path forward there as well. Andrew. Always great to see you.

Good to see you man, Thanks guys, great being here.

Good to see you man, Thanks guys, great being here.

Yeah, our pleasure.

Yeah, our pleasure.