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When you have talent, you are given another chance. Here's Chris Mannix. All right, play and hurt today. Welcome in, by the way, Boxing with Chris Manners, part of the Volume sports podcast network. Callin Cowhard's podcast network, joined this week by two of my favorite boxing writers, Jake Donovan Corey Urban, both writers over at boxing scene and fellas, I am coming to you from my living room, or my officers should say. And I have a big giant boot on my left foot because X rays revealed that I had a small fracture in my talas bone in my foot. So I knew something was wrong last week, really, but I also knew I had to walk the red carpet or the Creed three premiere had to walk the red carpet, clearly that that movie could not go on without my presence. So I just put off the docs appointmuntil Tuesday, knowing that whatever the news is gonna be, it wasn't gonna be good. Put on my shoe, took a bunch of Thailand, all muscled through it, and yesterday or Tuesday, I should say, got the bad news that I'll be in a boot for six weeks. So when I am on air on March eighteenth for the Gay Brizotto Gilberto Ramirez Tilt in Southern California from the feet down, I will be in or from the knee down, I will be with a boot on my left foot. So I just watched. This is my dedication, Jake, to this podcast that I am playing hurt, playing through pain in this one. I gotta say, listen, I have experienced in this realm. I have called a fight, several fights with a boot on before, and my first date with my now wife was also in a boot. So I think there's hope for you, Chris. Some good things can come out of this era. That's very, very descriptive, Corey. I appreciate that. All right, Well, a lot to get into, guys. I do want to talk about a couple of the events of this past week and a couple of other things coming up, plus the future of PBC. Steven Espinoza, the president of the Showtime Sports. He joins me a little bit later in the show and we address some of those topics. But I want to start with the topic that makes the boxing purist cry. Jake Paul, the now once beaten professional boxer six and one after his decision defeat to Tommy Fury over in Saudi Arabia, close fight, competitive fight. Not to criticize any of my fellow broadcasting peers, but I don't think it was a high level fight by any stretch. That that was sloppy, and the one knockdown had as much to do with the ring apron being slippery in that one spot as it did a power punch from Jake Paul. So, Jake Donovan, we'll start with you. You're impressed in the fight? Did they go how you expected? Did anything surprise you? What were your takeaways from Paul Fury Part one? Part one exactly? Um? Well, I will say, look, I was on record and saying I thought Jake Paul was going to win. So people were clowning Tommy Fury for celebrating as if he won. You know, he matched Tyson Fury's achievement winning the heavywit championship. This is his heavyweight championship. This is the biggest fight he is ever going to win. Maybe he goes on to beat a KSI or another YouTuber, this is his level. So that's really the only aspect that surprised me. I don't know if Tommy was at his best, I don't know. To me, it kind of looked like Jake was at his worst. So that did surprise me a little bit. I always said even I was ring side for I think all three of us are ring side for his pro debut three years ago, and I always said that he was going to evolve to be far among you know, the best YouTubers, that he couldn't compete on that circuit because he was too good. So this was like the first time we saw him take a step backwards. I thought maybe with the first time round Woodley fight, but this one in particular, it was still competitive though, so you know, the dare was go fight a pro boxer, Faugh a pro boxer. I don't think there's a case for him to have won the fight. I was a little surprised that was a split decision, but not really because it's boxing. I thought Tommy Fury did clearly win, but it was competitive, so um, I didn't think he disgraced himself in any regard. It just you know, I think all three of us care. It just wasn't I guess it was entertaining in its own way, just not in the sense of an entertaining boxing match. Corey, would you think, Yeah, I thought that this was, you know, a good, competitive, club level boxing match, which is not like to coming from me. That is not a pejorative in any way, like as as I wrote about on boxing scene dot com, this is like Jake Paul is probably in i would say, like the top fifty percent of active boxers globally, right, Like the boxing that we tend to see on the major broadcast out lest here is like the top five percent of boxers globally. You know, maybe ten percent, and some guys will kind of slip in here and there on the undercards. But for Jake Paul to have taken up the sport three years ago and to be able to compete with someone like Tommy Fury, who has boxed his entire life, is as I wrote, probably at this point kind of like a UK area level title contender type guy. Right now, he probably wouldn't win a European title today, but maybe that's kind of like a ceiling that he could aim for. Might even be too high. But even for Paul to compete with someone like that is still impressive. Now people don't want to talk about that too much because it's a lot more fun to clown Jake Paul, and quite frankly, there's probably more currency in clowning Jake Paul. But for what this boxing match was, it was a competitive club level boxing match on the biggest possible stage that you could put something like that. Jake, does you know the outcome of a fight usually dictates whether or not there'll be a rematch. Now, Jake Paul does have a rematch clause. I don't know what the appetite would be for country like Saudi Arabia or another Middle Eastern location to put on our rematch. Let's be real, that's where most of the money came from for this fight. The big persons both them got it. Obviously generates some money on pay per view, probably a lot more money on pay per view with the UK than it did in the US given the timing of it, and fifty bucks pretty expensive for like a five o'clock Eastern time main event. So you expect there to be a rematch. I mean, Jake Paul said, we're going to run it back and if there is a is there a chance the outcome could be different? And b is they're going to be Do you think an appetite for it? I do think the upcome can be different. The appetite that depends. Maybe there'll be one. You know, there's an audience that wants to see if Jake bull can overcome, you know, adversity. To me, I always felt like he was playing with house money anyway. I don't think the law. Maybe we'll get into this later, but I don't think the laws necessarily hurts him. Most people tend to why he has them employed, made with where they're effect except on a much lower lower level where people just kind of watch to see him lose. They you know, they pay to You know that he always gets booted everywhere he goes, so I think there's always going to be that interest in his career. Um, Tommy Fur, I don't see why he wouldn't take it, you know, you know, I mean, if he's enforced my curiosities where it lands, it obviously can't take place in the US. You know, the Fury family has a lot to figure out in that regard, so it ties he could fight wherever he wants. Tommy is limited and outside of a Jake Poule rematch, he's not gonna make a lot of money unless he fights someone like a SI, so he's gonna have to push all in for that. Um. I just don't know. It seemed, you know, it was everyone was certainly watching on Sunday, you know, so, you know, people do pay attention with Jake Paul fights, but we kind of seen it. It's like, I don't know, you know, it's that like even like with Paul and Woodley there, I thought the rematch was far less watchable up until that sensational knockout that's saved it up until then that that fight was, in my opinion, horrible. So I just don't know if anything could change from the first fight other than you know, a better condition Jake Paul, which obviously you know probably would lead to a win Corey does does Jake Paul you know, need to quote avenge this loss to continue to be as marketable as he once was. To Jake's point, like, if you're Jake Paul, there's just as much, if not more money in you fighting NDS. There's just as much, if not more money in you fighting KSI. You've got a lot of options in the crossover community that could make you a very rich man. But does he need to go back and do Fury again before he moves on to something like that, because people like Eddie heard of suggested, don't do it, Jake, don't go back in with Tommy Fury fight KSI next if you can make a deal with Natedz or some other x UFC star, go ahead and do it. Does he need to go back and do that? Well, I think to keep the same ceiling that maybe he thought he had, both in terms of the amount of dollars he could possibly make it and also where he thinks he will wind up as a professional boxer. I think the answer to that is yes. And to Jake's point, colleague Jake's point, I think that there is room for improvements with Jake Paul Steel right, There's more room for him to improve then there probably is for Tommy Fury. But as my other colleague Chris al Jerry said on his podcast, he thinks the Tommy Fury beats Jake Paul ten out of ten times because the experience gap is just too wide and no matter what you know, Tommy will will continue improving just enough to always stay ahead of Jake Paulum. So there's that, But I do think that there's there's also kind of there's that Plan B for Jake Paul, which is fading facing the KSIs, which is going back to the you know, the kind of faded MMA fighter circuit, and there will continue to be a market for that. It might be a smaller market because I think that there are there's a group of people that are now that we're tuning in, that we're hate watching, that are now satiated because they saw Jake Paul lose. There's still, though a big group of people that want to see him lose worse. And there's still a very big group of people that love Jake Paul, right, Like, his audience isn't just haters. There are people that really adore this person, and we'll continue to face him, so we'll continue to tune in to watch him, but he can always go to the other side. And by the other side, I mean kind of that the pure influencer circuit the KSI side of the road, which is kind of opting out of being true pro boxers. Right. The KSIE fights aren't on box react or not. It's trying to oversell what they are. They're just selling grudge matches between influencers. And as long as he's okay with going and doing that, that is still there for him and it will still be wildly profitable. You know, Jake. I get Corey's point and Chris Algierry's point to a degree, but I don't. I don't agree with Chris with the Chris Algierry statement that Tommy Fury win ten out at ten times like that, Tommy Fury won that fight. I scored it for him. I agree with you. I don't think it should have been a split decision. You should have won that fight by a point or two. But like Jake can get a little bit better, as he has in virtually every one of his fights, that was the best I've seen Tommy Fury look, and I've seen you know, three or four of his fights live, either in person or on TV. I think Jake can absolutely improve to the point where he could win a decision against Tommy Fury. I think he came into that fight thinking Tommy wouldn't be able to take the overhand right. Well, Tommy was prepared for the overhand right, and when he did get caught with some shots, he took them because he's younger, fresher, he's got a real chin. That's what happens. I think if Jake smart, and he is, he goes back in the gym, makes some adjustments, maybe comes out as more of a boxer in the next time. That to me is the intrigue because I don't believe it's an unwinnable fight for Jake Paul. In fact, I think it's very winnable if he changes some of his game plan and fights a different way. Yeah, I agree, you know, to your point, Like it was almost to the point where he was kind of telegraphing that we kept saying. Everyone reported it. You know that that's his money punch. Tommy Fury knew that was coming, and Jake Waul, you're sure enough to throw it, And Tommy Fury was prepared for it. I mean I even joked. I think it was when Fury thought Anthony Taylor, I said, I don't even think he's ready for Sean Paul and never mind Jake Baul. So this was like the evolution of Tommy Fury in two years more so, and again, Jake Paul, he doesn't know want anyone in an apology. He can go back to YouTube. I think it's kind of done him into service to try to prove to people that he can hang with an actual boxer. Because his radio, his pay for view numbers have actually gone down. I haven't seen the figures yet for this one. Maybe it goes back up, but he's trended downwards since you know he was on the Tyson Jones on the card and then even when he thought Ben askin. So going back to that YouTube circuit, I think it's gonna work to his benefit, like you know, for you know, from pure profit standpoint. So it's gonna be up to him. He honestly, he has nothing to prove. He went in there, he shut everyone up before the boxer he came close. Yeah, so maybe going do the rematch prove you can actually beat a boxer. I mean he can go and fight um let's I think Louis Panieta that got that KSI for who has become a big star in the misfit boxing circuit. I mean, go fight someone like that and beat him. It's worked for KSI, so why wouldn't it work for Jake. Who's Who's that guy? Core? You probably on the answer this salt shaker? Salt who salt? I sounded so old saying that and salt boppy right there. But that guy comes in with some energy. Man, he's got an attitude there to him. So yeah, it's a perfect opponent. It's good, it'll be fun. I actually prefer Jake Paul. I think he's gonna take the rematch. I think we'll probably see it in the UK. Both those guys can make a boatload of money. But either way, I think Jake Paul's got a future in that influencer circuit as well. The real fight of this past weekend one hundred and forty pound title fight, Guys, I have got this Twitter follower that sends me dms like once every like six or seven weeks about Super Almatias, like telling me that this is the next great fighter, the next great world champion. And sure enough, in the aftermath of Matias winning the IBF version of one hundred forty points, I got another long paragraph from this guy. So, Jake Donovan, I'll ask you this was this the coming out party for Super Almatias? Like we've seen him on the circuit for a few years now, He's been in prominent fights for a while. I think a lot of people, you know, kind of knew him a tragic way for what happened in the Dadasha fight in DC a few years ago. But this is a thirty year old fighter, blunt forced power, great chin. Did we see the emergence of a new star on Saturday? I mean, to your point. I think he's always been there. I guess he just needed this opportunity. Like even when Regis what Jose's had paid, it was kind of a reminder that yes, he is still He's probably the best junior rold to wait in the world, you know, even though Josh Taylor is the true champ. I would pick Regis in a rematch if Day fought today. So Sabria, I think he made that statement that he's right there. He and Regis are both gonna have a hard time finding opponents, so it makes even more sense that they do go and fight each other. But he made the statement that he had to make. You know, I think he's always been at this level. He just needed this opportunity. I mean, the poor guy was training for like nine months, you know, waiting for this fight to finally transpire. He heard rooms about you know, ponse not you know, being able to settle up. His visa went back to a purse bid. TGB had to get you know, regain control of it just to get this fight over the line. So the scary part is, I think we're going to see an even better version if he doesn't have to, you know, wait this long in between fights, but yeah, the talent has always been there. I find it remarkable to that for you know, all he's been through the tragedy with Dadashev, you know, to come back with that and literally still have that you know, he's talking about still you know, killing people. I mean that's a scary mentality. Yeah, I think that that That's what's really stood out to me about Matthias is and it's like, you almost don't want to say that it's a positive thing, but the fact that he has gone through that tragedy and still has that that meanness and almost a callousness to his approach makes him a very scary operator in the ring. And when you combine that with what his attributes are in the ring, which as you mentioned, or knockout power and a really outrageous motor for one hundred and forty pounds, this is a guy who's tailor made for television. And I think to your point, Chris, I think the question with Matthias has always been it has is this just a really exciting fighter who will see for a little bit and then he fades out, or is he can to have some degree of longevity on the prominent circuit. You know on showtime, and now that he has a world title and has a victory over another world class type opponent, I think the answer to that is yes, and and I don't know. I don't know if I agree with a person in your DMS that this is sort of like the next great champion necessarily, but he is a world champion, and I think that it's not a I don't think it does him a disservice to say that, Hey, maybe this is one of this generation's you know, Brandon Rios's or Mike Alvarado's, you know those type of fighters who win world titles and are just on premium cable for a long time and are one of the most memorable fighters of this generation that goes a long way, that makes you a lot of money, that keeps you in the fans consciousness for a long time. And the types of fights that Mattias is delivering and probably will continue to deliver, are going to make him that if he continues to get these opportunities. Yeah, Jake, I'd level him above guys like alvart Roto and Rios, who were fun fighters, but I don't think they were. We wouldn't consider one of them great fighters even at their apex. I think Matias has that potential to be not just a world champion, but a unified world champion, maybe an undisputed world champion. I mean, look, Ponce's good, not great, but he came out in that first round and he was throwing bombs. He was coming right at Mattias, throwing big shots. And what impressed me about Mattias at the end of that first round after taking that onslought, he just kind of shrugged his shoulders, went back to the corner, settled down, got back into it, started landing his own shots to the point where that was after the fifth Ponce's corners like screw this, We're not doing this anymore like my guys. But it was like them. We should almost brand it like the Hector Luis Garcia business decision moment, like just you know what, let's live to fight another day. On this one. This guy's kicking her ass. I think this guy's got a pretty a pretty high ceiling in one hundred and forty pounds. Yeah, definitely agree. I mean, he's kind of I love the fact that he went back he avenged the lone bus he had he said it was it was an off night, he accepted defeat, he went back and he knocked that guy out. Um the fight that really impressed me. I was ringside for it when he beat bats here At excuse JAKEM. Bayou, I think I'm probably impressed you. I'm impressed you guy, Jacob, I'm press you got that far. Vicore is always this ferier researcher to me. Thank you. But yeah, but but that fight, I mean again, it was like he had to overcome a little bit of a diversity. You know, that guy was coming on and then it just Matius. Once he gets going like there's it just seems to be no stopping him. So Ponce got a sense it at I think that's gonna be the case with Um. I could really see him running the tables on the PBC side at least. I think he's very competitive with Regis. I think he would probably beat Josh Taylor right now. I just don't think Josh Taylor is any longer at his best at one forty. I think he's doing a disservice by staying at this week. But he might be in no man's land. But to me, the fight is going to be a Regius and Emmetius I think Subreo beats everyone like a rolling Romero Poio. Anyone that PBC can offer him, I think he would run the tables over there. I would say, not only do I give him a shot against you know, all the guys in the top ten at one forty, but the other thing is that I think the matchup of Matthias against any one of those guys in the top ten is more exciting than any other matchup than you could make between any combination of other guys at one forty. And that's important too. You know, I think Mattias against any but he is against Jack Catterall is more exciting than any like in terms of pure action, is going to be more exciting than any other pairing of two men at one forty. And and that like that enough is going to get people to tune in. You know that Corey's got like a poster of that Eastern European guy who just named there like behind He's like, oh I know that guy. Yeah, I called three of his fights on ESPN twelve. Actually I've I've shot. I'm not shocked by that. You know, you guys mentioned uh and Jake. I'll put this to you a program fights a no brainer, right. Progra is already on Twitter talking shit saying I'll eat this guy for lunch, but he's a backdown from anybody. Um, it's a meaningful fight because two titles would be on the line. It would leap frog the winner into a different stratosphere and be a Fight of the Year contender for sure. Maybe an obvious one question is who's gonna pay for it? Right? Like that, That's what it always comes down to. And Progray right now is in no man's land of his own, trying to get a title defense done in the first half of this year so he can look at, you know, potential options in the second half. Mattias. Maybe he's got an IBF mandatory coming up, but that's probably a little bit further down the line. Like to me, the windows now, right, it's like June July of this year where the winner of that fight can be that guy. They can look to the winner of Taffi Molopez Josh Taylor and say, I got two belts you want him can maybe look to Ryan Garcia if he moves up and wait after this Javante fight and say you want a big fight, I got two belts you want it, you know, I don't. I guess I'm pessimistic, Jake, that fight could actually happen because they're both gonna want like high six figures at least to get it done. And I don't know who in the boxing broadcast Lance Ape is going to pay for it. Now, I'm with you on that. And you know with Regis, look, Marvin Rodriguez, I think he spent the only two point four million dollars that he had to ever get in the regions prograde business again. So the thing with the Matias I actually just reported today the IVF is now in the process of trying to establish a mandatory for Mattias. So they sent invitation letters to Ergaschev and to Jack Catterall. Ergushchev has already accepted, so it's up to Catterall. So they would have to fight to become his mandatory. That means Matias should be entitled a voluntary defense. He would have to get back in the ring soon, not wait another thirteen months or whatever. Plan hopefully you know, a PVC and showtim were motivated to you know, roll these guys out more often than once a year like we got last year. So with that, I don't know if a Prograe fight could happen next. But Prograe he's stuck with the whole whatever's going on pro Bellum that you know. I know they're in the process of being sold to this disrupt Promotions whatever company. I don't know what fighters is it going to go on board. I was told it's going to be like less than the third of the of the roster on Provellum that would go over to them, But I don't know if that creates even more problems for him. He would probably just have to make another deal with PBC, because you know, we dream about all these fights, but then again it's like who is going to pick up the checks? So PBC would have to decide, yes, it's a good fight, and you can't put that on pay per view. It has to be a short time main event, so then you have to established the budget for that. But if Mattias can get back in the ring within the next six months and Reis can't get someone like a Sorge Lipping Yetts or well, obviously garyans On, Russell's now going backwards, you know, in his career, in his development, that fight makes sense. It's like, if you can make that fight now, let's do it now. Yeah, Corey, that's an awesome Showtime man event, Like, that's a huge viewership, huge you know event. Maybe you do it in you know, Texas, Louisiana, somewhere close to where Reid just draws a few fans, but that's a massive event. Yeah. I'll keep some praise on it. And you know, I think that, you know, calling it one of the best fights that you can make it in boxing. Some people might might kind of like bristle at that, but so I'll qualify it on a personal level. For me, Matthias versus pro Gray, it feels like one of the most esthetically pleasing fights that you could possibly make. Right now, that are that are reasonable? You know, the Matthias and his punch output and then Progray with that combination of kind of slickness and willingness to work on the inside. To me, that is just like that's the kind of fight that I dream about, Right So, I wanted to get made and I don't know what kind of viewership that it would get. But as long as someone picks up the Showtime boxing rights here in Canada, which is a big problem, I will be one of those viewers. I think Mattias versus programs should become your uh Andreid Charlo Corey. Yeah, maybe you should adopt it, and that way you can feel the pain of something never happening, because maybe then I'd have someone on my DMS. I have no one in You don't you don't want you don't want these people in your DMS. You do not want them in your dms. Uh. Good segue. They're Jake to talk about PBC um In the PBC universe, fighters seem to be, let's just say, branching out for now more than ever before you get Fulton, you know, going over to Japan at some point to fight now in a way. Deontay Wilder recently declared himself a free agent. Ay Ruiz sort of did, like said, he's leaving Tom Brown, but he's staying with Al Hayman. I'm not sure what that means. You know, you're connect to the people inside PBC. Do you get any sense that there's some kind of shift going on there? Is this just the case of a few top fighters are exploring other opportunities, or are we seeing something fundamentally changed or the beginning of potentially something fundamentally changed. With PBC. Yeah, it's tough to get in the weeds with this because like once you start asking these questions, then you get like such varying different answers that this audience that wants to see PBC just finally crashed and burned. They've been predicted it since twenty fifteen. There's others who just stand in front of a buyer and say, everything's fine. You know, you know, there's no problems. I do like Showtime's commitment with seeing it. Like in the first six seven months, they're certainly putting on a lot of shows. I'm not gonna say it's like their best schedule. I thought even what they did in twenty twenty one, you know Eclipse is what they're doing now. But the effort is definitely there. I want to focus on the positive. Bill. I prefer like Fulton saying, Okay, well you're giving me this rematch with Brandon figure. Oh but hey, in a ways moving up to one twenty two, I want to fight this guy. And then they went ahead and made that fight happen. So it's obviously in a fight that's way too expensive to put in the US without putting it on pay per view and it's a pay per view disaster. Fulton's willing to go to Japan get a huge payday for this fight and in a winnable fight, So that's you know, I like that, you know PBC not PBC is allowing it. But they listened to what Steven Fulton wanted and they said, go ahead and make that fight happen, and he did. With Wilder and Ruise, it's disappointing that the money is not there to satisfy both of them, But I don't know if I blame PBC for that. I think they say this is what the fight is worth to us to put on, even to put on pay per view, Deontay Wilder and Andrew Russ saying we want more money. So you know, now Deonta's exploring other options even know if that fight is going to happen. But if they're asking for far more than what they think is firm walking back, I think that's a fair reset on the part of PBC. So I'm not going to say, you know that they're going to close up shop yet. I think they just reevaluating, Okay, where should we be spending our money, especially you know, we gotta remember too, Fox Sports is no longer doing boxing. There was supposed to do, you know, pay per views. I don't know what happened with that, but it's now down to showtime and showtime. Even if they go every other weekend, there's still only so many dates they can give to satisfy all these contracts. So I think, you know, in that regard, you know where Wilder and Ruis are claiming, you know, promotional free agent status. Yeah, go ahead and go explore. See who's going to give you more money they can go fight in the Middle East than God bless him. You know that's you know, that's less money out of PBC's pocket. So yeah, I think it's just a great, a smarter investment on the airport. Yeah, Corey, I think it's great to see at least the possibility of guys bouncing from promotional companies to network's no world downside to it. I mean, like Ada, Ruise made it clear he's still working with Alhaimon Deante, Wilder is still working without and Alahian will be involved in negotiations for their next fight wherever it is on whatever network it lands on. Like Eddie Hearn has some kind of relationship with Middle Eastern countries. Maybe that could be what gets a wilder release fight done, which is ultimately all that matters. We just want to see those two guys get into the ring. And you know, look, Ryan Garcia Tank Davis is happening because Ryan Garcia and Golden Boy are doing a deal where the fight is going to land on showtime pay per view. Like this is this kind of should be how it works, like where maybe we can slowly start to break this mold where exclusivity is all that matters. I mean, it's it's to a lesser step. But I was reading on boxing scene, you know, Joe Markowski at the Zone, you know, writing or saying to a reporter like we're open to all promoters. You want to bring a fight to us, you got a good one, like come come over here, like pitch it to us, Like who knows if they will, but if you know, if there aren't, if PPC doesn't have the options that it once did, specifically becomes the networks, two of them that would would put on fights. I'd love to see them start working with other companies, other networks just to try to get some of these big fights done. Yeah, and maybe some of this is out of necessity. I mean, obviously to a certain degree it must be, but maybe you know, some of it is it's just them deciding, Okay, this is the best course of action. Like I have no special insight on what's happening. I come to you guys that the Capital are reporters to learn some of these things as far as like, but Jake and the Capital are I'll go lowercase, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, But I do not have an r in at the beginning of my job title whatsoever. But I will I always say this, like I think there's a tendency when we talk or when people not we when people in boxing talk about PBC and Al Hayman, there's a tendency to lead with skepticism, and I am quite the opposite, you know, And I you know, as someone who also loves the music industry and knowing kind of Owl's history and what he did, like the landscape as we know it of the music industry and the live event industry, the ticketing industry, like al Hayman is extremely crucial to a lot of what we know as the like the modern foundation of how things in modern promotion and I mean event promotion period and how they work period, So I there's a degree of trust that I have in the decisions that he makes that they will be good ones for his clients and obviously monetarily for himself. So I don't necessarily know what's going on, but what I do know is that the two fights that were most excited about, by and large involve PBC fighters crossing over to fight someone else right now. So my feeling right now is that whatever is happening is something that's probably going to benefit the fighters right now, and I just generally have trust that Al Hayman is going to make a good decision. Look, I think it is a good decision not to guarantee huge sums of money for a Wilder Louise fight, because as compelling as the three of us find that fight, I don't think it's gonna have the mainstream appeal that will justify like five million apiece more perhaps in potential purchases up you know, pay per view buys. So that's you gotta do what you gotta do. Like I've often said this, like I don't believe there should be anything more than minimal guarantees in pay per view. That's the whole point of pay per view. You are paid per view. If you don't get the views, you should not be paid because you didn't get them. Like, I'm not trying to be pro promoter here a pro advisor, but these networks and promoters should not be left on the hook to pay a big bill just for the right to get these fights on their network. So I like that, and I like the idea of cross promotional stuff because these guys, Jake, they gotta they gotta be busier. Man, Like, you can't build a career fighting once a year. You just can't, no matter how big that fight is. You gotta fight minimum two times and if there's an opportunity fight three. I understand injuries happen, tough fights take some extended time off. But like the fact that the Wilder who had a one round fight against Robert Lenius back in what November whenever that was October? Yeah, like is now we're looking like what June July maybe for his next fight, Like he gotta These guys gotta get back into it and be active. Maybe this Jake is a way that it can happen. Maybe, and again we're sometimes too optimistic about what boxing can do. But like, maybe this is a way that we get guys busier, because that's what will help the sport more than anything. Yeah. No, I agree one hundred percent. And you know I do applaud that you know, they're not you know, for people say like al Haman is this control freak that you know, everything has to happen under his you know, ten to whatever, you know, allowing them to branch out, you know, so to speak. I do have to applaud that, you know, it's your point, like if guys don't want to settle for like okay, well this is the only date that Showtime has available, this is the budget they have available they need to get and the ring is as often as possible. So I yeah, I can't agree more at that point. Yeah. Another potential move that we have for this year is Terrence Crawford, who seems to be trending towards a deal with Golden Boy. I saw Crawford at the three Premiera both you know, movie stars as you guys know, and uh, you know, it does seem like the Alexis Rocha fight one way or the other is going to happen. The WBO recently ordered that fight. Corey. You know, I've said to you before on air, like I'm fine with that fight, Like Crawford's a massive favorite, but you got to defend your title against the mandatory Alexis Rocha is the highest rank guy. If he knocks him out, big deal, Like, you got to test yourself at some point. And for Bud Crawford, it goes back to the thing about activities. Been a once a year fighter for like the last three and a half four years. Like, if you can get an opportunity to get right back in in April or May probably May and fight and Alexis Rocha, don't you just have to do it and see if you can build some momentum back yourself. Yeah, one hundred percent. Now, is this obviously the ideal scenario or the one that everyone wanted, No, but it is also the position that we're in, Like could better decisions have been made that would have resulted in him facing Errol Spence, Yes, But the position that Crawford is in right now he needs to link up with somebody to start making fights because he can't just fight on Bok Prime and be able to fight the caliber of opponents or the frequency of them that he would like or that fans would like for a top level fighters. So you know it's it's obviously second to Crawford Spence, but if we get Crawford, Roacha as a potential you know, trampoline towards Crawford versus Virgil Ortiz, That to me is very positive. And also, you know, we called Alexis Roacha George Ashy and you ask roach To the question, you know, like do you think you're ready for Terence Crawford. And he also isn't trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. He said, I don't know. I guess I'll fucking find out when I get in there, you know, like that's we'll find out. And so he's willing to test himself. Roacha isn't saying like I demand this fight. I I you know, I hundred percent deserve this fight. He kind of recognizes that, Yeah, he's been fighting the George Ashy's, but he is positioned within the ranking to get a Terrence Crawford fight, So of course he's going to challenge himself and take it. So I think that this is the type of fight that is good for Terrence Crawford right now and also not one that anyone needs to lie about in terms of what it is. You know, Roach, I think I saw the odds today is a plus six hundred underdog. That's fair. That's what this fight is. And it's a potential appetizer for Crawford virtual arties, which everyone should be excited about. Jake, I'm kind of impressed that Golden Boy might be able to get this done. I granted, Crawford doesn't have a lot of options right now. He's I guess he's still involved in the lawsuit somehow with Top with top rank, they're not gonna work together. The PPC conversation didn't end well. Eddie Hearn doesn't have anybody for him. I guess Golden Boy was really the only game in town. But even when that picture was posted on social media, I'm like, all right, well that's nice. It's a little publicity stunt. I wasn't sure it was gonna get done, but it does seem like, you know, a roacha fight is probably the favorite at this point to happen for Crawford next. And you know, I look, if Ortiz beat Stanios by the way fifty fifty fight, that's there's no guarantee that happens. Ortiz against against Crawford would be a pretty big event. So I guess the question is, are like, are you surprised as the path we're kind of on right now with Crawford leaning in Golden Boys direction. So when I saw that picture post, you know, my first question was, Okay, is this just Oscar trolling? Obviously, you know, as he said, it's a Roacha fight week, so why not draw attention to it. But when you look at the rankings, it makes sense. We knew Roacha was going to float up to that NOMRM position because Boots was ahead of him, Virgil Attis was ahead of them. They're both fighting. Well, Boots now has the answer in my BF bel will probably be upgraded, Ortiz is obviously fighting Stanionis. They'll probably be upgraded to WBA full champ. So the next step would be for you know, Bud to make his his mandatory title defense against Roacha. And I'm fine with it. Look, I mean there's still people who are stuck on Crawford. Spence has to happen. It's not gonna happen. We don't even know if Errol Spence is going to return to walterweight. Now, Look, and I've said this, Look last year the fight was supposed to have and I'm fine blame Bud, give him one hundred percent of the blame. That's fine. You can't change what you had for dinner last night. Though it's time to move on. Bud can't sit around and just say, okay, well, I'm gonna wait for Spence to make his next move. His fight hasn't even been announced yet. We have an idea of when it's going to happen, but that you know, showtime intentionally is not yet announced it so Bud has to move on with his own career in the meantime. So I think it's a perfectly acceptable fight. You know, as far as you talk about staying active. You know, Alexa Strocha lost the fight he lost to Rashidi Ellis. He's fought six times since then. His last fight was his fifth fight, and I think in like thirteen or fourteen months. So that's what you do. Now he's worked his way back into contention, and you know, like he said, you know, I don't know if I'm gonna good enough until he getting the ring with him. Even if he loses, he's twenty five years old. He has time to come back from that. So these are the type of fights like when they only happen once a year, yes, the fight's not good, but when you get guys who are active, these are the type of fights you get to fill the gap. So that's what I view it as. So, and if this fight does lead to Bud fighting, the winner of Ortiz and stanionis even if he doesn't sign with Golden Boy, as long as he has that working relationship, because he said the bridge has been burned, which just about everyone else I mean he has. I think he has a decent you know. I don't know if he has any kind of relationship with Eddie Hern, but at least Eddie was honest and saying, well, I don't have anyone on this side to all offer him, so why would I sign him. Golden Boy has guys that they can throw at him, So I'm fine with that. He needs a working relationship with someone, even if not necessarily a promotional contract, So I'm fine with this bad And one thing I would add to that too, Jake, is that it's beneficial for Crawford at this point from a PR perspective, because he is kind of fighting a little bit of an upward battle right because there are a lot of people who put all the blame on Bud for that fight not happening. But so yeah, he can't change what happened there. But one thing he can do is just be purely active. Just sheer activity is what he does have at his disposal. If he can work with a Golden Boy and with some other promoters. He can't give people the gourmet meal that they wanted, but he can give them not a buffet, but he can give them dim some you know, he can give him like, you know, sixty percent caliber dishes quite often that and that's that will help. That will help us standing among the fan base. By the way, Jake, the people that play the blame game on Crawford versus Spence, if you put a gun to my head right now and told me who's it fault, I would have no idea, no idea like if and I look, we all talk to people in this business. Everyone's got an opinion, everyone's gonna take on it. We all followed or tried to follow that Twitter beef and then the video Crawford posted out there. But like, if you are sitting there listening to this podcast telling me, you know, definitively who is to blame for that fight falling apart. You are a thousand times smarter than I am. You are because for whatever reason it crumbled Crawford as his reasons for walking away Spence and his reasons for pushing for whatever he pushed for. It's too complicated right now. You know Hedge funds foreign countries, splits expenses. I don't know what the fuck is going on with that. That was wild. I would say I have Jake. I don't know about you, but I've kind of I would say this, I've abandoned this fight happening or Spencecraford happening at one forty seven. I don't think it's one forty seven because I don't believe Spence is gonna cut back down seven pounds. I think he's at one fifty four now. He'll fight Keith Thurmot at some point. I don't know, Like what happens with Charlo in those belts, like I don't I don't imagine they never fight each other. They have the same trainer, and I don't know that this naturally it seems a little odd, but like if one belt becomes vacant or Jamel Charlo moves up to one sixty, which is certainly possible. It's open field right now at middleweight. I think Spence is a junnim middleway and maybe collect some titles up there. Maybe they fight at one fifty four. But if you ask me, the one question I can answer is I don't as I don't believe that fight happens to welter win anymore. I think Crawford's path to becoming undisputed is now, defend your title against Rocha and the winner of Ortiz Danionis is the first steps, and maybe a Boots fight is the big fight for you at one forty seven. No, I agree that's gonna be a pan like if he stays at one forty seven, goal collect all the belts that are going to become available once again. Because before, prior to twenty twenty two, I always said that if Crawlfrid Spence ever happened, and I never believed they would, that it would happen at one fifty point. Then when the negotiations happened, like we all got hold, it's like, oh wow, this fight, you know, really has you know there's a pathway to it. So now I'm just I'm just checked out with it. Like once Bud said, Okay, I'm gonna go fight for Uncle Dez and you know, take his ten million dollars. I was done with it. Okay, this fight is never gonna happen, at least not at waldweight. I'm fine with that. You know, if Spence has his options, great, go move on with your own career. I have my own theory about what's going to happen to him at one point before. I do believe Charlo will probably let gold belt because he's not gonna sit there and just keep fighting mandatories the rest of his career. But the Bud, there's still a pathway to him fighting on dispute. It it's the scenic route, and it will probably you know, be at the end of his career. But again, it begins with you know, having a relationship with Golden Boy, who probably has the most you know, walt weights that they can throw at him. Right now, that's what he should call the path to undisputed now, the scenic route. I like that, right, But gold Bush put that into press release called gold Boy sides Bud Crawford the Scenic Route. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Indio. Last thing for you guys, uh, I'm gonna raise a metaphorical glass for BLK Prime. Um shout out, b K Prime. I don't know what your future is at the moment, but you had an interesting run. You showed us new ways to light money on fire with the crowd fight Catt David Avenecian, and now you are out of the Adrian Broner business. Broner takes the social media and says he's a free agent once again. Zero fights into a three fight contract that he claimed would be worth eight figures, and now Adrian Broner is on the market once again. Jake, I have no insight into why this happened. I've made no calls on it, but like, do you have any clue as to why the Broner BLK Prime relationship crumbled before it even started? Well, you're raising a glass. I'm gonna spill one out in death of BLK Prime. I'm pretty sure they're out of the business at this point. I have heard that they are most likely going to fulld up shot. Maybe I'm dead wrong on that. I'm fine if i am, but I just you know, I think they did try with good intention to go to throw wood with this event. It just obviously didn't happen for a variety of reasons. I can't recall, like so many opponents pulling out within such a short timeframe, or you know, not being being available. Just it was a horrible, you know, mixed from the start. I think they thought that with Broner, like it would kind of catch fire, but it just did and ticket sales were horrible even if that fight happened. So I just don't know what's next for Groner. I you know, the apology tour is very noticeable. Maybe he somehow works his way back with you know, with PBC that they find a fight for him, They'll they'll find opportunities for him. But yeah, it always seems to go that way. He talks junk, he gets a fight, the fight doesn't happen, he talks more junk, and then it just it's I don't know if it's a love hate relationship. But I don't know. I don't know if I'm sure we'll see Browner in the ring at some point. I know they keep talking about him fighting possibly Connor Bend. It just feels like some type of circus atmosphere he's talking about he wants to fight Regius program. That's Okay. Yeah, I don't think we'll ever see Adrian Browner in any in a meaningful fight ever. Again. I mean, it'll be a fight that'll catch attention, but you know, something on the title level, I just don't see it happening. Corey. I know you are preparing a oral history on BLK. What what are your thoughts on on the end of my glass is empty, so I can neither toast nor pour one out. And I suspect that that's the reason why, you know, be okay, Prime is coming to his demand. You know, when you Google searched the offices of BLKA Prime, they did not look like the location of a company that could fund regular, multimillion dollar boxing events. So that's one thing. But when it comes to Adrian Broner, like listen, like I just hope that Adrian Broner is okay. You know, like, obviously this is a man who is is deeply troubled. Um has been going through substance abuse issues, things outside of the ring, you know, clearly. You know, his interviews are drastically different kind of day after day, and I just hope that he's all right, and I hope that there is still someone in his life and professionally that is going to look out for him. But you know, he continues to be compelling enough, amusing enough to people, and obviously talented enough to continue to get opportunities. So whether he's whether he's in like a big, big fight again, I don't know. But yeah, I honestly I could see him facing Connor Ben, you know, because there are gonna be a lot of people that don't want to face Connor Ben for the reasons that we all understand. But Broner, as someone that doesn't have a ton of options right now, or at least needs to create them, might be the type of fighter that would jump at something like that. It would make a fight for Connor Ben interesting to some, So I could see something like that happening. There will be opportunities for Adrian Broner, But for me that's just secondary to just hoping that this isn't a sport that does more harm to him than good. Yeah, I'm with you on hoping it works out for Adrian Broner. At a personal level, I remember just being I went to his camp years ago before the Madonna fight in Colorado Springs, spent a few days kind of learning his story, from the people around him, and he's really overcome a lot to get to this point. It's, you know, you hope that he can get some semblance of a career back on track. That's number one. I do want to keep it light though for a moment. We've seen in boxing, we have seen some creative ways to just flush money down the toilet, like just burn it, like whatever PBC did with all that Wadele and read money, Eddie Hearn going out there and signing like Tevin Farmer to multimillion dollar deals and the guys that he was putting on from twenty eighteen up until twenty and twenty, Like boxing just gives you example after example of what it means to see money disappear in real time. B Ok Prime might, at least in the short run, might take the cake. I mean, guaranteeing Terrence Crawford ten million for a fight that probably did like I've heard anywhere from twenty five thousand or less, you know, for that pay per view, guaranteeing him all that much money, then giving Broder a deal. Then I believe Jake, you were the first one to post this, like whoever was on Facebook, like asking for an opponent to fight Adrian Broner. And by the way, offering one hundred and seventy five thousand dollars, that's real money, Like that's legitimate money to be an opponent for Adrian Broner. Almost shocked that nobody was was able to take it at this point, that this was an incredible run. Like like I some we need to call Ed Brophy at GISTNA and like get get Blka Prime somewhere in the Hall of Fame, Like just get them, get them somewhere. Um on Broner, I do think a Ben fight. I'm with you guys, makes makes sense. Ben's gonna get back in the ring at some point he can. He's not vindicated, he's not you know anything because of what the wb sind facts. He's actually correct me if I'm wrong, but he's like disputing the WBC's findings. He said it's like wasn't it wasn't eggs, it was bad testing, which is, you know, always the old chestnut of bad testing. But he knows, and Eddie Hurn knows the British Boxing Porter Control is not going to fold the same with the WBC did like they're not. He's not gonna get licensed anytime soon. But he can go over to the Middle East, and the Middle East is where some money is. They might have enough mind to pay Adrian Broner and look a Ben fight. Quite frankly, I don't know if it's winnable for Adrian Browner, but it's the most winnable high profile fight that's gonna be out there. Connor. Ben's got power, but Adrian Bron's got a great chin, and Browner's gonna have an experience advantage. You could do some things in the ring if he's right, And we don't know about that, but if he's right, Jake, that's the fight he can win. Like that's and if he wins that fight, you know, that's that's an easy way to get your career back on track. It'll it'll be at one forty seven, you know, a weight that Broner is now probably officially at at the moment forever. But that that to me is the you know, if Broner can find a way to swallow his pride and realize you're not going to get like four million dollars to do it, um, he should run towards that fight if at all possible. No, I agree, one hundred percent. I've always said Tom, he's not going to allow himself to be like a step in stone for prospects or guys who don't have any kind of profile whatsoever. And to Corey's point, like you want to you know, know that the guy is going to be happy. I mean, he had to pull out of them off at Euro Fight. He'side of mental health issues. I mean, we know they're very real with him. So he seemed like he was a lot happier going into the scamp. He looked like he was at least in shape, you know it, you know, had the fight happen. So I'm not gonna say the dedication is there and he's going to stay on course, but a fight like this I think would really get him going. It would probably happen, you know. I know Eddie has the deal in Abu Dhabi, the Championship Series or whatever, so that's gonna be probably connor Ben's you know, home base up until he can get licensed anywhere else in the world. So there's real money there for Groner. I mean, he doesn't have to sit around and you know Chase you know, Facebook fights or whatever. So I think Adrian Brona could push it all in for that one. Um, I don't know where it would lead to, but it's good enough to get him to the next step in his career. So it's a real payday. He doesn't have to go and fight like some nineteen and ol hungry prospect that just wants to use his name. And this is, by the way, this is why he still has options because even three people like us, we're on here, and we started off kind of jovial and then we were like, huh. But if he puts it all together, I mean, he can win this fight, right because we've seen, you know, the Adrian Broner of ten years ago, Like we've seen that electric talent, you know, And and so I think we to do this with these kind of embattled but extremely talented athletes merely that conversation leading up to their next fight their next performance is always enough curiosity to hook you, right, and he is always going to have that, so there will always be opportunities for him. And you're right, check, I think that he understandably thinks too highly of himself to ever allow himself to go that other path. He always needs to if not be the A side, then the de facto a side, and there will still be opportunities for that. They're still out there. I just want to know who the who's gonna be the BLK Prime of twenty twenty three. Who's coming in in the second half of this year with bold plans to take over boxing. Who's coming in with Marv Nation money, Who's coming in with BLK Prian money? Excuse me, who's gonna win that next purse? Bit Triller money? Like, who's gonna come in? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. Why does nobody in boxing realize this? Why? Why is this so hard to wrap your head around that just pumping money in to one a side ish fighter is not going to work. It's not going to work. You've got to be competitive. You gotta put on consistent events. Ah. It's almost as like I'm we're like in the mayor of Crazytown here at sometimes with boxing. Listen, I don't know who it's going to be, but whoever it is, my agent is Debbie Spander. You need someone to call the for love of God, um, Corey, Corey, We'll call something in Kazakhstan. Trup fly right over there at take care of it it read Jake and Corey stuff over at boxing scene dot com. Follow them on social media. Great insight and intel into all things in the boxing world. Fella, It's always great to catch up. Looking forward to seeing you guys real soon. Ay time heal that foot? Yes, thanks, chriss, I appreciate you have me on look at both to you being back on the back off the angel list and when we come back my conversation with Steven Espinoza. All right. Steven Espinoza is the president of Showtime Sports. Showtime Boxing has nine upcoming events over the next four months, including the big one, the one that Stephen so callously iced me out of April twenty second, Ryan Garcia tag Davis catchweight fight Mega Fight in Las Vegas, and Stephen joins me to talk about that and much more on the show. I feel like that was an appropriate intro, Stephen, what do you think I would expect? Nothing less? Chris. Let me ask you first then about Garcia and Tank. This was a fight that looked like it was done late last year. Predictably, some hiccups came up along the way over the last couple of months. Were there points that you were legitimately concerned that this fight wouldn't get made, I would say no, and really the reason and why because there are certainly points of disagreement, there are some things that I think we're new points relatively late in the process, you know, and that's always aggravating. But I think the reason why I wasn't concerned, I was optimistic and confident that it would get done the whole time is because of Tank and Ryan. And look, it's an oversimplification, but if we look at Spence Crawford, you know that was proceeding and then one guy decided to take an exit ramp and pursue another opportunity. It was clear throughout this process because both Tank and Ryan hadn't various opportunities to go in different direction and they had no interest in doing so. So as long as they stayed engaged and they remained committed, the rest of us had no point but had no choice but to make it. So as long as the fighters stay engaged and focused on it, then then I knew everything else would work out. You know, both these guys have massive audiences, very diverse audiences, very different audiences. What kind of pay per view business are you expecting. I'm sure you're not going to put a number on it at this point, but are you looking at this as being the kind of show that could rival say Canello Plant, which you did a couple of years ago. Is it's something a little bit smaller scale, Like what kind of business are you expecting? Yeah, I mean if we look at Canelo Plant, that has been sort of the high water mark of recent pay per views, that eight hundred range of about what Fury Wilder two and three did you know, maybe a little bit less. Conelo Plant was right around eight hundred, so that that seems to be sort of not necessarily ceiling, but sort of the high water mark we seen. I'd be thrilled with those numbers. You know, this is Ryan's first time on pay per view, Tank's been on several times. I think why I'm optimistic, though, is if you make a list of the fighters who were known outside of the regular boxing fan, it's a pretty short list. But aside from Canelo, you know, Ryan and Tank could probably top of that list. You know, in terms of people who attract the attention of a group of an audience that doesn't pay attention to boxing all the time. So we're pulling not from our usual pool, but a much product pool. So I think this could definitely be a breakout. But I also think that regardless of the outcome both of these guys, this is the kind of fight where both of these guys end up bigger afterwards, and you know, hopefully I expect something that's good enough that maybe we see it, you know, again, later on down the line. They're young enough to do that. Yeah, And that's frankly often the case where two great fighters get in the ring. You know, there's a winner as a loser, but there's rarely a real loser. Like you both gained something significant and from an event like that. You guys at Showtime love the schedule. Dump you love the schedule. Dump the here's here's our next forty seven fights in the next stuff four and a half months. As you look at this calendar, which has a sprinkling of pay per view, sprinkling of Showtime Championship Boxing showbox cards on there as well, Um, what do you like about this schedule? What is what is different or notable about the schedule. I think it's a couple of things. Um, obviously, we're going to a really, really busy period of like you said, nine fights or nine events over I think an eleven week period, um at some point eight weeks eight live boxing events in a row over consecutive weekends. Um. I think it's I think it's the depth because I think we've really made an effort to provide value. Second fight down the card, third fight down the card. You know, sometimes we're opening the cards with title fights, meaningful title fights. So I think that's one thing we're proud of. The other thing you're a product is sort of the I think the variety. I mean, this represents, you know, the range of the sport from showbox to arguably one of the biggest of not the biggest pay per view that can be made right now. So it's it's a little bit of everything. You know, it's not heavily weighted pay per view or anything else. I think, you know, there's a good spread of everything from young guys at ten and o to your established stars. And we've got a lot of names that are just about to get finalized, but some of the bigger names aren't even on the schedule yet. The spence is the Charlo's morrel and it's you know, those are be coming pretty shortly, and then when you layer those on, it's it's going to be even bigger and better. So I think we know you know erl Spence, Keith Thurman, so to dancing around each other for a little while. You know, we're waiting for Jamal Charlo to get passed is injury is to get back into the range. Jamal Charlo is the most intriguing name kind of out there. He hasn't fought since June of twenty twenty one. He came back recently on social media and said I'll be back this June, which would be right around the two year anniversary of his last fight. Um, are you expecting him to be added to the calendar before the end of June? And like, what are realistic expectations for Jamal Charlot at this point? Being off this long, I do expect him, know whether it's June or or you know, early July. I think somewhere in there makes sense. We're close to finalizing the fight. I mean, being completely candid, he has been up two years an injury, UM, some personal issues to be sorted out. He's anxious to get back in the ring, I think, UM, but being completely candid, one hundred and sixty isn't the deepest division. You know, there's very good talent at the top, but there's a there's a gap once you get past the top names. I think, you know, I don't think it's fair to ask him, coming off the injury and some time out to take off the toughest opponent the top of list. You know, it's clearly not going to be a Damis or someone like that. But I think it would be a credible fight, and I'd look to see a meaningful fight, maybe a Damas or something like that as the next fight before the end of the year. Well, if he goes to one sixty eight, Stephen, there's a former two division title holder just hanging out in the PBC universe, now undefeated American trash talker. You know, I uh, let's see, I'm checking my watch. Where do we seven minutes into the intel? This is this is the record you waited seven minutes to bring up to me. I did. I've kind of you know, he's just been so off for so long too. I mean, these guys they could just they're so inactive to get back in there and fighting. Well, look, I for once I agree with you on, here's a backhanded compliments, right, so you know March obviously we've got a big fight with Benavita's plan um. Canello seems to have other plans for the foreseeable future. You know, maybe secures the people fight the fall, maybe he doesn't. Let's let's assume he's true to his word and he does that, then the rest of the guys. Look, you throw the names in the hat. Then Avida's plant, Charlow if he goes up there, morel and andre You know, there's plenty of talent, There are plenty of good fights. I don't see you know why not only Andred, but everybody else in that pool can't do high level fights even without Canelo into in the mix. Yeah, I think that actually is a great opportunity for somebody this year to separate and go into twenty twenty four as the only choice for Canelo to fight in May, because, like you said, all that talent is there, it's all under the same kind of umbrella. You know. Benevitez probably the most talented guy of the bunch, Plant though pretty accomplished, Andreid pretty accomplished. If somebody comes out of that with like two quality wins, there's gonna be a mandate to face Canelo next year. One a thing on a potential fight you mentioned Crawford. It sure looks like as we take this, that he's trending towards some kind of deal with Golden Boy that involves Alexis Rocha his mandatory. Golden Boy also has Virgil Ortiz if he can beat Stanionis at the end of April. On the subject of Spence Crawford, if right now ten being you're overwhelmingly optimistic that that fight's going to happen, one being hell, no done? Bury at six feet under, Where are you right now on Spence against Crawford as the next fight or ever? Ever? Really like, you know, kind of the logistics so ever, I would say six and a half. Okay, I think it happens. I'm more optimistic than not that it does happen. I know there's still interest. I know there's still a desire on the Spence side. I believe Crawford when he says that he's interested as well. So no one as long as no one has given up, and I don't think anybody has. They're certainly opposals, you know, the roacha, the sanctioning body order being one of them. Um, but I still look, I'm not going to give up. I'm not going to give up until either one of them or both of them are retired. Do you think Spence is done at one forty seven? Um, you know, it's it's difficult. I understand it's difficult for him to make the weight. It's not impossible. Um, he can continue to do it. I think the question is okay. Um, you know, Crawford, Thurman and this. You know, those are all good opportunities at some point in the future. Beyond that, you know, I think it's as much as wanting a new challenge as it is just a difficulty to wait. Um, I want to ask you about some interboxing type of stuff. You know, PBC's got some interesting things happening right now. You've got Adrian Brohner recently left the company. Deontay Wilder's declared himself and open agent whatever exactly that is. Andy Ruiz sort of did too, though he said he's no longer with Tom Brown, but still with Al Hayman. I'm not sure what kind of distinction. Without a difference, PBC is still a considerable presence obviously in boxing. You work closely with them, but they have a large stable of fighters and now with Fox effectively out of boxing one network, which is yours to work with. What do you know about the direction PBC is taking and is planning on taking in the near future. Well, I think you can look at a lot of the schedule, which it's not exclusively babies PBC, but a lot of it is, and take a queue there. I mean, through the first six months of the year, we've got fourteen live events on us on our accountant. That's as busy a six month period as I can recall since I've been here in the least twelve years. And that does not include you know, possibly another fight or two being layered in and made in June. So look, I think they are going to remain active. You know, we're going to have to pick up some of the slack. I think you're seeing a lot of good fights um streaming, some big names and other places simply because you know there there isn't necessarily room for everybody, and and that I think is going to they're not necessary force. It's going to result in some higher level fights. You know. You know, at this point the market is such that it feels like there's a bit of a contraction going on a little bit, you know, at least back from where we were three or four years ago, where we had four and sometimes five different platforms really active in the US and domestic US boxing, and that that has pulled back a little bit, and I think, you know, with fewer outlets and to be spread across, I think you know, some of these bigger fights are more likely to have. Is that you have a multi year contract with PBC. Is this the final year of that contract? No, we we extend beyond this year. Okay, Um, Obviously the schedule shows pretty wrong commitment to boxing from Showtime. Everybody read about the restructuring over there paramount plus the emphasis more on streaming as everybody seems to be going in that direction, What if any impact will that restructuring have on Showtime boxing? We've you know, so far, you know, there's nothing that we heard that changes any of our plans. In fact, we've been told and given the green lights to continue doing what we've been doing. And I think we've established ourselves as the market leader and that's the plan continuing going forward. You know. Obviously there's a lot going on in the media industry. I think there's a larger correction in sort of the content business generally as well as the greater make macroeconomic conditions, so you know, we're susceptible to that like everybody else. The integration with Paramount I think is a real result of two things. One, you know, continuing the merger that was started two years ago, and you know, probably more directly consolidation. I think we went from a period of time where everyone was really excited about streaming. Now there's a million apps out there, and now I think it's going to start rebounding the other way. So I think consolidating within Paramount Plus makes sense. I think, you know, Disney is probably the best example of being able to maintain several brands within one app, and that's the move that's being done. And I think it's a It's an opportunity for boxing is a sport and time boxing because being packaged together, you know, side by side on the app and giving access to all the great sports audiences that are already on Paramount Plus and CBS, from NFL through soccer, through NCAA tournament, I think that's a great marketing opportunity. I think you know, we have an opportunity to get better market to sport and maybe draw on some of that general sports audience. It won't surprise you, but I mean, in the last couple of months, I've heard from a number of different HBO people who said, Wow, this reminds me of kind of what happened with us back in twenty seventeen. In twenty eighteen, do you see a difference a specific difference in kind of what HBO went through that led to the elimination of boxing over there and the restructuring that you're going through now. I could see how someone could draw that conclusion. I think the difference is, I think what we saw HBO was not really a sudden end. It seemed to be a little prolonged, so it's sort of wound down over a period of two to three years. That's that's not what we're experiencing here. I think last year was one of our biggest years in terms of content spending. This year is going to be bigger than that. So from that perspective, we're not really winding down. Who knows what the future of the media business is and you know all that, but that is that's that's something that is there every day, But in terms of this company itself, we haven't seen anything that hints to us that things are winding down. Do you think there's an obvious I'm always fascinated by what is the future of boxing broadcasting, Like where is it on what platform? Because like Showtime right now going through it's it's every structuring. Um, the Zone just had a price increase that was extremely significant. ESPN is still putting on fights, but ESPN also has to pay the NBA in a couple of years. They have to pay a UFC in a couple of years. I don't know how that's going to affect their boxing programming. UM, I just doesn't seem like you can point to something that absolutely positively works. Do you think there is something out there, a model that absolutely positively works, that can be sustainable, that can be successful, that can you know, be something boxing can can hold on to. I mean it is a it's a it's a really great question and a question that I think, um that the true boxing events should be asking. We know that there have been challenges with ad supported purely ad supported boxing, and um, I think we get a better job we should do and can do a better job attracting sponsors to the sport. But that's one of the challenges. I think it's got to be a combination of a broad, potentially ad based platform as well as subscription, because I I don't think either one by itself is is enough to to support the entire support. And I think you point out to another dynamic, sort of implicitly, which is, you know, as all these other sports become exponentially more expensive at a time where there are economic pressures, um, you know, some of the niche sports you know may be squeezed out, you know, and that that is a risk, not just for boxing, but from everything else. You know, the big sports rights are just continuing to explode and call now having said all of that, you know, we've been here for nearly forty years, and we weathered a lot of storms, a lot of transitions in the market, and I'd like to think we are confident in fact that we'll figure it out. You know, we'll figure it out. We've figured out the transition to streaming. We're still a market leader, will continue to figure out and adjust as the market changes. Steven, I appreciate your time. Man. The showtime schedule pretty strong. All went through June, and you've got a bunch of more fights to announce over the next couple of months, and Sergio and I decided we're gonna do a pirate broadcast on the parking lot of Garcia Davis. I can get you in the arena. I'm pretty sure I can handle that. No. No, we're gonna do a post fight interview with Sean Garcia afterwards, and to do our own version with like a banner and a couple of folding chairs in my I know a guy Gary Davis that you can also interview if you'd like to do that. Are you? By the way? Last thing? Are you? No venues been announced yet? I mean, Vegas has a lot of different options out there. Is there one more likely than other? At the moment as we tape this on March first, I think we're probably looking at the sort of default is MGMT Mobile and potentially Legion. I would say, just because of the size and the demand of the fight, probably that would lean toward clearly T Mobile or a Legion, and we've had conversations with both. There are some challenges going to the football stadium, as sort of novel and exciting as that would be, but I think it comes out to one of those two venues. Yeah, everybody kind of wants that football stadium experience. I'll say this. I know it's cool kind of from a television perspective, like you remember those Cowboys stadium fights, like they weren't very good, Like people were watching the fight on the big screen and not fifty five thousands great. I mean, we just did. I was part of the one at at and T Stadium seventy six thousand. But you're you're watching fights on a screen you watch you're on DV, paying high price for beer, sitting at your seat. Yeah, it's you know, there are there are ups and downs and you know in the reality obviously, you know, once you get to the risers, you're much further away from the ring than you would be if you were on the risers in the arena obviously, so there's some downsides, um, you know, and those are all the kinds of things that are being discussed, um, everything from the cost of being the arena, some of the upgrades that would be necessary because look at and T Stadium, you've got the advantage of that huge center hung scoreboard. Allegiant doesn't have those. They just have handled. So you don't want to set up a scenario where everybody you know who's at the fight is constantly looking this way and that way rather than you know, at least you can with the center Hume. Now, there's obviously solutions, but that's those are the types of challenges that you encounter. Well, either way, it's gonna be a massive event. Two guys that that draw big crowd. It can ultimately with you. You can always get me, Chris. I'll go in the parking lot. Come to the parking lot. I'll go to the ten. David hasn't know. Its good to talk to you, all right, you too, Chris. When we come back, this week's picks brought to you by FanDuel. All right, boxing fans, if you are a UFC fan as well, John Jones, he returns the octagon this Saturday to face off against Cyril Ghana with the heavyweight championship on the line of FanDuel wants you to get in the action right now. New customers can get a no sweat first bet up to one thousand dollars. That's one thousand dollars back in bonus bets. If your first bet doesn't win, bet on who will win, how they will win, when the fight will end, and so much more so, don't miss out on your chance for a no sweat first bet up to one thousand dollars when John Jones takes on Cyril Ghane for the heavyweight title, exclusively on FanDuel America's number one sports book. All right, we got back to our winning ways last week. Here with the gambling picks, all courtesy of our friends over at fan Duel Sabrio Matias in a short war he beat Jeremiah's Ponce by knockout. Those are the two picks that I made last week's hope you bet with me? I hope you made some money, and let's keep this train rolling into next week. This week, I'm locked into the one hundred and twenty six pound division. You've got Brandon Figaroa moving up froe hundred and twenty two pounds, facing Mark mcsio, a former title holder in this way class. Beaksio he lost last time out to Ray Vargas. Figaroa coming up from one twenty two. Figaro is the favorite. And I know what some of you might be thinking, didn't we just get into a little bit of trouble picking a fighter moving up and weight against the guy that's more established. That's what happened a few weeks ago with Ray Vargas and O'shacky Foster. I just think this is a little bit different. I think Figaroa has the size and strength to compete at one twenty six, where it's pretty clear Ray Vargas doesn't have that at one thirty. And I think Magsio, even though he's a strong guy, you know, he faded kind of late against Gary Russell Jr. And I think he's vulnerable at this way class. Figure Roa is a minus three thirty favorite, so not gonna win a lot of money there, but I think that's a safe bet. Brandon figure Row to win. Where you can win some money is figure rowa by points or decision. That's at plus one forty five. Take figure Roa by points. He's got some pop. But I think at this weight class, Megsio is going to be strong enough and have a good enough chin to go the distance with Brandon figure Row. So those are my picks, Brandon figure Row to win and Brandon figure Rowa by points or decision. All these picks, of course, brought to you by our friends over at FanDuel. That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Jake Donovan, Corey Erdman, and Stephen Espinoza for joining the show. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple, podcast, Spotify, whereever you download podcast, and I'll see you next week.