Boxing with Chris MannixBoxing with Chris Mannix - Mannix vs. Mauricio
Joining Mannix this week is WBC president Mauricio Sulaimán. Mannix and Sulaimán debate the WBC's decision to allow Jermall Charlo to retain his middleweight belt, the use of the "franchise" title, why the WBC will "never" allow three minute rounds in women's boxing, Errol Spence's questioning of sanctioning fees and more; later, George Kambosos joins to talk what he learned from back-to-back losses to Devin Haney, finding new motivation, a rematch with Teofimo Lopez, more. #Herd #Volume
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Just a reminder that you can catch me recording this podcast live on amp amp with the new Live Redio app. Let you call in and chat with me in person while I'm recording. Get the app on Apple's app store and make sure you follow me at Chris Mannix to get notified when I go live. This is Boxing with Chris Manning. Who's somebody punch him in the face empty? Joshua is a composed and ferocious finisher. Watch this handy re wise. This a heavy wady hosted by SI's Chris Mannix. That was my moments now with interviews, analysis and everything going on in the world of boxing. When you have talent, you are given another chance. Here's Chris Mannix. This is Boxing with Chris Mannix, part of the Volume Sports Podcast Network. Glad you could join me this week because we have a great show lined up for you. I mean a great show. Mauricio Suliman, the WBC president. He is someone that I have poked at a lot over the last few years for some decisions that the WBC has made. He joins me for what was right around a forty five fifty minute conversation where we addressed everything you know Jamal Charlow's hold on the WBC title. Tyson Furies fight with Francis Daganu, Women's boxing issues ran the gamut. Maracio was clear before the interview started that nothing was off limits, so we covered all the bases on that one. Terrific conversation with Mauricio Suliman. A little bit later, George Cambosis, the former unified lightweight champion. He is back on the comeback trail this Saturday facing Maxi Hughes. That's the fight you can watch live on ESPN. I talked to George about he has lost to Devin Haney, how he kind of reacted to that. What can we expect to see from him in this next chapter of his career? Is that hunger still there after making all that money for the Devin Haney fights. Good talk with George Cambosis a little bit later in the show. As always, subscribe, rate review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you download podcasts. All right, well let's do it. Here's my conversation with Mauricio Suliman. All right, Maricio, I just want to reiterate at the top of the show that I do appreciate you coming on and talking to me. I can be hard on the sanctioning bodies of Maricio, both in print and on de own. So I do appreciate and respect you coming on and verbally sparring with me a little bit because I think we're going to we might get into it here a little bit.
Mauricio, absolutely my pleasure and we're absolutely open to any topic of discussion, and this is a great opportunity to clarify many things that could be missenter, pretend misunderstood, or to rectify when we commit mistakes.
All right, so let's jump right into it then. Jermal Charlow he is still the WBS middleweight champion. He has not fought now in more than two years. He recently had to withdraw from a planned fight with Canelo Alvarez because of some personal issues that he's been dealing with. As of right now, there are no plans for Jamal Charlo to fight in the foreseeable future. Why is Jamal Charlo still the WBC middleweight champion.
HBC takes every single case separately, wed Minister. We administer every single situation and we have been very close to Jermals Charlo's case. First, he had an injury when he was going to fight so LeKi, there was a hand injury. Eventually, he has been involved in some mental wellness situations. Mental health and the WBC has looked into this matter. We addressed it by ordering a interim championship with Carlos Adames becoming interim champion, and we have been supporting Charlow's situation and we will continue to support him. I am close in communications with him and his brother, and I believe he will be fighting in the near future and resume his career.
So in summary, in.
Summary, we simply will be always with our champion, with our boxers, especially in the bad times.
Okay, I can respect that because you know it's very clear from what I've been told and what you obviously know that Jamal Charlo is going through some issues in his personal life. But you see Mauricio to have a mechanism in place to deal with a situation like this. You've used the champion in recess recess designation a lot over the years. A few recent examples I can come up with are when Alexander Usik moved up to heavyweight, you used on him called him champion in recess for a while. You use it on Devin Haney when Devin Haney was injured couldn't fight You then reversed that ruling and reinstated him without Hany actually fighting for his belt again. Currently, Ostar Revas is the Bridgerweight Champion in recess, the designation the WBC gave Rivas until he quote confirms his decision about his boxing future. Why should Jamal Charlow not be held to the same standard.
Well, as I said, we deal every single case separately. Usik informed the WBC's intentions to compete in heavyweight, so we gave him that option. He was inminent. He was not going to fight, so he was going to go into the heavyweight. So that's what we did with Usik. Revas had a detached retina. He has to retire from boxing very unfortunately. We gave him the opportunity to be able if he wanted to return.
But that is not going to be the case.
And the other one, hey NEI, As you can see, we put him in champion recess, then put him back as champion. Every single case is dealt differently. I have been in talks with Charlo of him fighting in the during this year and in the near future, so We're gonna still wait and see when he's going to come back. We did address the situation having Adames as interim champion. He just fought a week ago against Williams, so there is activity in the division.
Okay, So you mentioned Carlos a Damas, and since Jamal Charlot fought back in twenty twenty one, Adamas has fought four times. He won the interim title, as you mentioned, two fights ago, defended it in his last fight against Julian Williams. How is this action fair to Carlos a damas well?
Carlos adam is making good money. He just fought a week ago, and he's very happy being the DOLVC interim champion.
I think he would disagree. He wants to be full champion.
I just stopped to him today.
You said he then he's happy.
He's fine, he's happy, he's appreciative of the WBC, and he understands that we're supporting a human being in Charlo. If things change with Charlie, if it comes different, we will take a decision. But at this time I am convinced he will be fighting soon. And Adames is not being disrespected in any way, and he's happy with it.
Should Charlo's next fight be against Carlos Damas.
It could be, as I said, I am in communications with them, could be a Dames or could be just a comeback fight defending his title, and then we order the fight between the interim champion and the.
CHAMPIONI so my theory and you can tell me if I'm wrong here, But Jermal Charlo is the WBC middleweight champion, Canelo Alvarez is the WBC super middleweight champion. My theory is that the WBC has won it all along. If those two were gonna fight, which has been in talks for well over a year now, that they would want the WBC one hundred and sixty pound champion versus one hundred and sixty eight pound champion. And that's why Jamal Charlo still has his title.
No, not necessarily, Charlo wanted to fight Canelo four years ago when Charlo was the interim middleweight champion, and he waited for that opportunity. Eventually that fight didn't materialize. So Charlie is a fighter that has been waiting a long time for a big fight. This situation of Charlo right now is exclusively of a WBC support to his personal situation. He can fight Canelo even without being the champion.
It's a big fight.
But this is much more before the Canelo possible fight was in the scenario.
All right, So let's move on. Judging is a hot topic in boxing. Way too often. Do you think that bad judging is a serious problem in boxing.
It is a very serious problem. I am diligently working with ABC Ring Officials Committee into many different aspects. There's a few problems that we can certainly look and understand as a root of a problem. One is the way ring officials are appointed to the fights. THEBC appoints the ring officials in most WBC title fights, but when it comes to the United States and other few countries, then the local boxing commission is the one in charge and not every time we can agree on the panel officiating the fight. But there is other situations in boxing that we are concerned regarding officiating. The system of a ten point more system is now somehow misunderstood even by the judges. If you have a ten point more system and ninety five of the rounds are scored ten to nine, then we have an issue. There's specially in the first two three rounds there are many times there's very little action. You can see a fighter win around by just landing one or two jobs or just a very little activity and he gets ten nine. And then you can see later and maybe next round or a couple of rounds later, big action, big blows being landed by the other fighter and he wins around ten nine. Most commissions do not allow ten ten, even though we encourage our judges to score ten ten. When there's a very close round, when you cannot pick a winner, it should be a ten ten. And also they don't encourage or allow ten to eight without a knockdown. So there's many rounds where you see a great damage and things happening that are really very different from a very slow round, and they're still score ten nine. That's one of the things we have remote scoring. We have found this that is very helpful to monitor the activity of the judges. Serves as a training and an evaluation tool, and we have found that the more judges a fight, then the less chances of a bat s or or a bad decision. We would like to implement for the big important fights, five judges.
To score a fight.
We have the open scoring rule around the world. But again USA and the UK they do not allow it. Open scoring means we announce the official scores after the fourth and after the eighth round.
Do you think that's a good idea that because in my mind open scoring you want fighters to at least think that a fight is competitive, because if it's open scoring, it can change the way the second half of the fight plays out.
Well.
We have found this to be a very very good rule and tool. We do it, as I said, in most countries of the world. It gives transparency, which is much in our sport. But most importantly, it gives the corners the opportunity to see what the judges are scoring. How many fights we have seen that the fighters at the end of fights said, oh I thought I was winning. I just let the last two rounds just go like that. There's if you give the opportunity to adjust the strategy or the action, the plan of action, then at least you give the fighters under corners an opportunity to adjust when they are not going the way they thought in the eyes of the judges.
Okay, so you mentioned bringing up a specific example of bad judging. I think that there are there should be more consequences or any consequences for poor judging, and I want to bring up a specific example that relates to the WBC. It was a couple of weeks ago when Marlin Esparza faced Gabrielle Alanize for three titles, including the WBC version of the one hundred and twelve pound belt. The Sparza won a unanimous decision, which was fine. It was a competitive fight. It was a majority decision two you're right, two rounds to two judges at at first bars, one judge at least a jomp at a draw one judge. Though Javier Alvarez had the fight a blowout, scoring ninety nine to ninety one. This is Barcio, the same Javier Albarez who had a very strange scorecard in the Stanionis Bhutaya fight a year and a half ago and had an outrageous one I thought in the mj akmadaliav. Marlin to Paulus fight, which was for two versions of the one hundred and twenty two pound title. That's three bad scorecards in three championship fights over the last year and a half. So my question to you is do you believe Javier Albarez should judge any further? BC fights.
You know, he was appointed by the local Boxing Commission. We have that fight right now on the review by THEBC Ring Officials Committee. We agreed also with the wo to door review of this fight because there's a strong complaint from the Argentinian fighter who lost her title, and we are addressing it. But as I said, it's a situation where in many instances, the WC does not have the control of appointing the ring officials. Sometimes we have zero, sometimes we have partial, sometimes we have absolute control. But officiating right now it's under a slam. So many fights. If you look at the last two three months, so many fights have gone that one judge gives it to one fighter, the other judge gives it to the other fighter, or close fights like these one are very wide scores. So something is happening and we have to do something. We have to really protect and up the activity because there's something happening and it's very concerning.
I think one of the bigger concerns is that for the most part, I say, a large percentage of judges are older. I sit ringside for a lot of these fights. When I look at the ring apron, I see a lot of mostly older men that are judging a lot of these fights, and I don't know if there should be an age maximum or an age limit for how how old you can be to judge fights. But I see very few quality young judges in the pipeline Mauricia. Not to say there aren't any, but I think that is a major problem in boxing. How do you address that?
Well, First, I think it's in constitutional or not lawful to put age as a parameter. In England, I believe you cannot judge if you're sixty or sixty five, So some places do have age as a limit and you cannot be a judge or a referee over a specific age. There is absolutely, I believe, qualified officials, but they don't get the opportunity there are. You know, many times promoters or managers or boxing camps have a say in the process of vetoing who they are requested to be officient in a fight. But how can you get to the major leagues if you don't get the opportunity to play in the minor leagues? How can you get to be a good official if you don't get that opportunity I have and I would love to get you involved in a process where we can look at officials and see how many because we do have a huge list of ring officials from all over the world. But there's a tendency that a very few limited names are being considered for many big, important fights. So it's a it's a problem, and we are addressing it. We are not happy with it. That's that's that's a reality.
I think. Look, I can appreciate that. I go back to the example of a Javier Alvarez, and I mean, what if what happens if I see him or anybody sees him in a w in a fight where the WBC has some control over who the officials are, because that tells me that there are any consequences for bad scorecards.
No, we do have consequences.
And we have a case of Stephen Bleia last year and it was public suspension and he took it like a man, and he continued growing and continued to to go through the process of education and certification and training, and now he has his back and got activity. So we do have consequences. We have every single event that is officiated, there is a a I'm sorry for my English, agreed, a great provided on the performance of each official. There is fig back to the officials. We go back and forth and say, well maybe you in this as for reference, this and that, and for the judges as well. So we do have a solid ring ring officials committee, but we are limited in the in the activity that we can do in many instances.
Let's talk about the fight that Canelo Alvaa has just had down in Mexico against John Ryder, and I want to talk about the undercard because a couple of things happened on that undercard that were very difficult to understand. You had Stevie Spark against Gabrielle Valenzuela, who is a local fighter from Guadalajara, and Maricio I had the official sheet in front of me that showed three neutral judges, and when the official judges were read that two of them had been replaced by local judges and that those two judges ruled against Stevie Spark, and Stevie Spark said that shouldn't have happened. Eddie Hearne, the promoter of the event, said that shouldn't have happened. Do you have any explanation for what happened that night between Stevie Spark and Gabrielle Valezuela.
Yes, I'm very familiar because we were heavily involved in that event and that fight was going to be a WBA International title. We help the local books in commission in many things during the process, and I know there was because between match Room and the promoter, local promoters and the boxing Commission, We personally intervened to make sure that what they were asking the commission was addressing, so that fight had in fact a neutral panel. I know from personal witness because I was there. I have no idea what happened in ringsight, and I believe it was at the end not a WBA fight, and how they substituted, I have no idea, and I talked to Sean Palmer, I believe after after a couple of days, and we tried to help them understand what had happened with the local commission.
So you're saying you had no involvement with the judges being switched at the last minute.
Absolutely not.
No, he was not a WC fight and it was not anything that we had intervention with.
I want to ask you about two of the innovations you've had over the last five or six years. The Franchise Championship and bridgerweight, the new division that the WBC launched a couple of years ago. How do you feel about those two ventures now? Do you regret anything about the Franchise Championship or the creation of the bridgeweight division, Not at all.
I'm very very I have always been a very positive when I have to talk about these two cases. On the franchise designation, I feel very happy. I'm very proud, and I stand strong that what it did in three weight categories was very helpful. The franchise designation is designed to have a fighter out of the uh you know, those elite fighters that would make a difference, to have some sort of different.
Treatment.
Canelo received the frenchise designation. He went on and and fought a three or or four fights outside the weight category where he was franchise, and he defeated cob Lev and defeated another fighter, and then he decided to go to super middleweight and his goal was to unify and be undisputed, and so it worked very well. At this time he's not franchise, so there's no French designation. So when it worked, it did give the opportunity and it worked well on the lightweight the designation when Lomachenko petition.
It was.
The perfect example on how it helped the lightweight division to boom in many ways. Hani was interim champion. When Lomachenko has the designation of franchise, he becomes a champion. So Hani had the opportunity to defend the WBC title. Then the pandemic came. He fought Gamboa, he fought Linaries, so those were high profile fights. We had Garcia Ryan Garcia for Luke Campbell for the interim title. When Hani was injured. We had a series of fights involving very good fighters, so that division became very active. Eventually Lomachen lost to Lopez, then Lopez lost to Cambosos. Then Haney came on and beat Camboso. So I believe it served the purpose of getting very good fights, very good opportunities to many. And then Hani went the full cycle from entiing champion to one disputed champion, and I feel happy about that.
Let me let me stop it. Let me ask you this about lightweight, because this is where you lose me. This is where we disagree. I think the franchise championship at lightweight created two years of unnecessary chaos. It led to debates weekly about who the real one hundred and thirty five pound champion, debates that got even crazier by the fact that originally, you can tell me if I'm wrong, But originally the franchise championship was supposed to be non transferable. Vasili Lomachenko was not not supposed to be able to lose the franchise championship to Taafimolopez. Or put it another way, Taffy Molopez was not supposed to be able to inherit the franchise championship from Vasili Lomachenko. So it created a lot of unnecessary chaos in the division. And yeah, maybe it created a couple of good fights. I would argue that Hanni Lenaris would have happened anyway, Hanni Jojo Diaz would have happened anyway. I think the negatives in with the franchise Championship at one thirty five vastly outweigh the positives.
Well that's your opinion, I respect. When we entered into the the creation of the franchise designation, we changed the rule that ruling. Whenmolopez petition the DOLLARBC before the fight, he said, if I beat Lomachenko. I want to be THELLUBC champion. That's what he petitioned. The Dolu we see voted in favor of that, and that was the case. So I take the other road.
I so you, Mauricio, you had to answer. You did interviews all the time. I saw them on YouTube, I read about them. You had to answer the question all the time about who is the real WBC champion? How is that good for anything in boxing?
I take the other road.
I take the fact and the reality that there were many great fights in that period.
So I take that.
If people were mad at me and said things uh not that I can repeat.
Here, I take it.
But I prefer and I was very proud to see many great fights happened, and then we proved it was a great process for Hani from those two years to grow into the undisputed champion.
Okay, but is the franchise championship belt gone forever?
We don't have any any petition right now, There will not be any petitions.
Maybe it's gone forever. I don't know yet.
Would you want someone to petition, because again, like you seem to think it's a good thing. If Canelo Alvarez petitioned to be the WBC one hundred and sixty eight pound franchise champion.
What would you say, probably, but you didn't let me finalize with the super Flyway.
Chocola.
Tito and Estrada had a great, great second fight, which was praised as one of the best in many many years. Blah blah blah blah. So Estrada petition for the franchise and that was what helped the third fight to take place. In the meantime, it was a great tournament that was ordered very unfortunately fell because of COVID and other injuries. But Cuadras was to fight saw Room Beside, and then the two winners were to by each other. That would have been a sensational But from there, when Rumby said got the pull out of the fight, Bam bam, Rodriguez emerged, So that was a great thing that happened from there. Then he be Quadras, then he knocked out Room beside, and now we have all the Estrada as a champion when he defeated Gonzalees. So it served the purpose at that time.
I would argue, though too, I think that you argue everything I do. I do argue everything I would say that the franchise belt didn't really help making the third fight between Chocola Tito and Australa, that they could fight for no belts and people would watch. Oh, come on, you think people care about Estrata Chocolatito fighting for a title.
Oh my god, you're so wrong.
The belts are what makes the interest.
Of course, sometimes times I agree with you.
Yeah, you would watch Pittsburgh against Dallas. That's a great rivalry. I'm a Cowboys fan. But if there's nothing at stake, eventually that will die out. If there is no championship, if there is no accolade. People, and you, with all due respect, when you claim that fights can take place without belts, it's an insult to the sport.
Well wait a minute, Maricio, your analogy. Your analogy doesn't make any sense. It doesn't like you say, Pittsburgh Dallas. If there's nothing at stake, a win is at steak. An opportunity to go on to bigger and better things is at steak. There's no belt on the line between Pittsburgh and Dallas.
Why are Chocola Tito and Leestrata known because of years of working being champions?
Of course you can have fights.
Without belts, but that's only a top of the top that really without having that process, it is very unfair to say you can have fights without belts to be of interest. Of course, that could happen, and there were attempts in the nineties in the two thousands to go that way and they all failed because boxing is a worldwide sport that needs the boxers from all over the world. Look at the stage, how many Paqueo became many Pakio and I can send you a chart. He was a life flyweight. He wont THEBC flywight, Oriental and Pacific Boxing Federation title, which is a DOLLBC affiliated title. Then he won the international title, then he won the DOBC flyweight. Then he moved up to super his kip to super bantam weight. So then he came to the United States and won the IBF title in a great opportunity as a late replacement, and that put the eyes of the world. So to say that titles do not mean anything, it's something very popular to say, because.
No, look, I think titles mean something to a certain point. I think that Floyd Mayweather after he beat Oscar de la Hoya, I have no idea what titles he fought for, what titles he won. People only cared that Floyd Mayweather was fighting in a significant fight. Canelo Alvarez fighting in September, if he fought for no titles, I don't think it would impact that fight one bit because people watch for Canelo Alvarez. And that's how I feel about Chocola Tito and Estrada if they fight for a fourth time, which may happen at some point the next year, if there's a title on the line, if there's not a title on the line, I don't think it matters one bit for that fight.
It does matter very much, and I can tell you and you can tell. You can ask TV executivetives, you can ask sponsors, you can ask promoters, and then you will see if the title has any value or not.
We can go round and round on that. We'll move on. I agree with some of what you're saying there. I think later on, I think it matters a little bit less. You didn't address bridgerweight, which it has not gained a lot of traction as of yet in terms of big name fighters. How do you feel about how bridger weight has gone in the last couple of years.
If you allow me to give the explanation, I think it's educating. In nineteen o nine, the heavyweight Champion of the World weighed one hundred and sixty eight pounds. In the whole century, human beings became bigger and bigger and bigger. That's a natural evolution. So by the eighties early nineties, the WBC created the the cruiserweight division because heavyweight began at one seventy five, identifying the growth of human beings, the cruiserweights came into from one seventy five to one ninety and heavyweight would begin from one ninety on. With this same thought process, we have changed from one ninety to a two hundred because we kept seeing the high volume of fighters that were much bigger in the heavyweight division, so we expanded to two hundred the cruiser weight. After doing research and doing data and analysis, THELBC instituted the bridge of weight, which comes in at two hundred to two hundred and twenty four pounds to a universe of fighters that are in the heavyweight we limit, but are in a very small compared to a two sixty to seventy Tyson Fury, Joshua and other huge fight fighters that are there. So since the inception of the bridge aweight, we have had WBC World Title, Silver International, NABF and a few other federations. And one thing I can tell you, the fights have been very, very good. With Oscar Levas losing because of his retina, there was inactivity in the World Championship, but I can tell you every single fight in the bridgeweight has been very competitive, very good, and I have confidence that wills continue to see the bridge away continue to emerge. The money is in heavyweight and that's a reality. So most fighters would like to fight for the heavyweight championship on another learning that the bridge of weight is getting to be a place where they can safely and justly compete.
Okay, but isn't your argument, you know, isn't your argument diminished by the fact that a the man that has three versions of the heavyweight title could qualify for bridgeweight. The man that held the WBC title for more than five years, Deontay Wilder, he could qualify for bridgeweight. You're talking about some giants in boxing, and yes, there are giants in boxing, led by Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua, but a lot of heavyweights still fall in that two hundred and thirty pound you know weight limit that bridgeweight claims to operate in.
Yes, of course, why there is a great exception that he at two fourteen to eighteen could knock out huge opponents too. Yeah, but Usik, he's much heavier now than to twenty four and he has not the power that he had in cruiserweight. Has not been shown in heavyweight at all. But he's a guy.
Heard Anthony Joshua in that first fight, for sure, almost had him knocked out in the last round.
Yeah, but he didn't knock about, he did hurt him. And he's a great fighter, great champion, and of course he's an extraordinary We're talking the decision for the general population or universe of fighters, and I feel confident it's moving along well.
Takes time.
Every single rule that has been implemented takes a long time to mature. People continue to boo my father years after changing from fifteen to twelve rounds, and today's the reality and has saved many lives and the quality of life of benefighters.
A couple things before I let you go. One area we agree on figured we wrap things up with an area we agree no Tyson Fury is going to fight France and Nagan who on October twenty eighth. Tyson, of course the WBC heavyweight champion. You have gotten some external pressure from people asking you to strip Tyson Theory of his title. You said he will not be stripped, and your reasoning was that he tried to make fights to defend his title against Anthony Joshua, against alexand Usik, against Andy Ruiz. Those fights fell apart for various reasons. He just defended it back in December. So I agree with I think you're doing the right thing in allowing Tyson Theory to do this event against Frantz Nagana. Where I'm not clear on is why you haven't ordered a fight or a person bit of any kind for the next mandatory challenger. I know there was one at one point for Deontay Wilder against Andrey Ruiz. Is pretty clear that those two are never going to make a deal. When can we expect some kind of clarity on who is the mandatory challenger for Tyson Fury.
You know, the mandatory challenger is a major topic. If you do not put the greatest attention into trying to have the best mandatory contender, you will do a dis service to the sport. We do have a process to selecting, through elimination bouts and through a specific final elimination who the best challenger of the division is, and we have tried to do the best job. We have had a few bad mandatory contenders which do a disservice to the sport. The WBC rule to see Wilder against Ruiz as the final elimination to be the mandatory contender. This has come just a way too long, and I agree with you. Uh, what has happened has been all these processes of Fury trying to do the fights with us sick, and then the different offers coming from the Middle East to so many different fighters, so it's been very confusing. We are we have a deadline for confirmation if while there and Reece is going to happen or not. If not, then we will cancel that ruling and produce a new one.
Women's boxing is growing by the year. It seems like we're seeing a lot of women headline, you know, major shows. We have heard some of the most high profile women out there call for women's boxing to before under three minute round rules, to have three minute rounds right now they are at two Where do you stand on women's boxing going from two minute rounds to three minute rounds?
The WBC has done thorough research and at this point, unless there is absolute medical, scientific clearance, we will never allow women to fight three minute rounds. And this is medically and scientifically. But if we go to the facts and to the reality, why would you change If women's boxing is so exciting and it's so great at two minutes, it's at different pace. Everybody loves to see women's boxing, and I'm certain that the two minutes have a lot to do with it. You don't need three minutes to knock out somebody out, And just the ration now is on medical.
And sorry, excuse me, I would there are other studies, Mauricio, that say it's not as significant a risk as as the WBC has made it out to be. I've read them, I've seen them. Why why are you not? Why why are you not looking at some of these other medical opinions that say it's not as big a risk as you think.
I don't know what medical opinions you referred to. I'll be happy to look at them. We have annual conventions where all the topics are in the open floor, and we have also a clear opening to address any situation. Nobody has ever put together or put forward a petition with facts.
And with medical research zero.
I don't go out shopping and trying to find articles as you mentioned, but nothing has ever been put forward to the WBC. What I can tell you is men and women have completely different physiognomy. The next area has a different structure. The menstrual period brings a very different situation into the hormones and the woman when they're going through that process, and the ratio for concursion, it's much more higher for women not for men. We will not be into a popularity contest. Many times, we have protect boxers from themselves. Boxers are warriors. They would fight thirty rounds or five minute rounds if they were requested to do so to earn their living. They don't care about the rules. We have to protect them and put the rules for their protection.
I would say to answer your question, but why does it need to be changed. You know someone like Amanda Serrano, who is the undisputed champion at one twenty six and one of the few power punchers in women's boxing. She would say Hey, I just fought in the biggest fight in women's boxing history. If I had an extra minute in that fifth round, I would have knocked out Katie Taylor. Or when I won my first belt at one twenty six, I believe in one thirty fighting Heather Hardy, then if I had an extra minute in the first round, I would have knocked him out. The argument for three minute rounds is it will increase the number of knockouts and therefore grow women's boxing because, as you know, people whether it's men or women, they love watching knockouts.
That's a speculation, and.
Uh they do. People love knockouts.
Oh no, no, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, it's a speculation to say she would have won by knockout if there was another minute. We cannot prove that. But why don't we go back to fifteen rounds and see people who are not human beings in the ring being just put to the limits of human We are for safety and if women want to fight in a safe platform and a safe control environment, they're welcoming.
The WBC.
All right, last thing for you, and I do appreciate your time, So let's talk about Aerol Spence. The Unified one hundred and forty seven pound champion, also the WBC title holder at one hundred and forty seven pounds. He's got a huge fight coming up on July twenty ninth against Terrence Crawford. That's the biggest fight of the year, one of the biggest fights we've seen in many years. Aerol Spence was at a press conference recently last month and he had this to say about the sanctioning bodies.
Again, three to the organizations. I mean, we got to know where is the money going to? I mean a lot of times they man, you got Canello and Josh and all these guys, you know, making fifty million dollars and these bells getting three percent of Where's he going to them? How's it happen to fight as that? What are you doing with it?
So Marizio Aero Spence wants to know where the money is going. So you tell me where is all this money going?
Thank you so much for this question.
The DOLBC is a organization nonprofit organization founded sixty years ago. The doll ABC has one hundred and seventy six countries affiliated. We have fifty employees in Mexico City direct and many other indirect employees. We have offices in Los Angeles, in Albuquerque, and Miami, and we have remote offices in other countries. We have a wide variety of committees that do work every single day. We have a huge expense in the in boxing program. We have expense in medical research. We have the hor Csulman Boxes Fund, the Friendly Hand Foundation, the DOLLBC Cares Program, a variety of social responsibility programs, many different committees. So I did a piece about two weeks ago, three weeks ago about what the DOLLARBC is if you are open to giving this more time and more outlet because we do not have outlets. What the WBC says is very limited of where it goes because we don't buy the time or we don't have the structure the news openness. But I am happy, and I responded to World Spends. I was sad that he does not know what the DOLLARBC is, but because he has been a champion and he has seen what THEBC does, so I feel very happy to have the opportunity to prove what THEBC does. We are, as I said, non for profit. Every single dollar that comes into the WBC goes back to boxing one way or another, and there's thousands of people that you can ask about that.
I think what Erol Spence would like to know is is any money going towards the boxers specifically when it comes to post fighting career medical insurance for when they're fighting done fighting? Because as you well know, a lot of boxers find themselves in very difficult circumstances physically mentally when their fighting careers are over. Is any of that money going to be earmarked for those specific purposes?
Many many, many, many, and many times we don't publicize specific cases because us we feel that the honorability of those great champions that following hard times would be tarnished. But there's so many fighters that you can ask and see the aid that they have received and they continue to receive.
You know.
The the the way boxing is a structure is very complicated because there is no league. There is no structured planned for any fighter. There are individual contractors to a promoter that ALLVC is not in the business of boxing. We have nothing to do with TV contracts, with gate revenues, with sponsorship, nothing that has to do with the business. Only the administrator and the and the medical side.
When a fighter.
Goes into a boxing and does not have good advisors that help them pay the taxes, that help them save in a four one K or save for retirement, and the boxes gone and.
Buy a.
Ferrari and crash it and come close to death and buy so many jewelry and trips and fun and houses, and they don't get good advice. That's the biggest problem. We are working hard into getting a financial education for when they you know, once they become big in money and they come into a bubble and it's very hard to educate them. But we start early and we have been doing so you can educate fighters or it's not It is not limited to fighters. NFL has I believe three years after they retire they go to Chapter eleven the highest rate. So it's for all athletes and entertainers. But it's a concern for boxing because athletes need to know how to save the money because most of them they don't know to do anything after they retired from the ring.
Marisio Suliman, I do appreciate your time talking to me about this, verbally sparring a little bit about this. Some things will never agree on, Mauricio, but I do appreciate you taking the time to sit down and talk to me.
Thank you, Chris, and anytime I'm open and more than happy to try to give some books back to you.
And when we come back my conversation with George Campbosas. All right, George Cambosas is the former lightweight champion. On Saturday, you will begin the work to get back to that championship level when he takes on Maxi Hughes. That's a fight you can watch exclusively on ESPN in the US. And George's back with me here on the show. George's been quite the couple of years for you got a big win, took a couple of losses made I'm guessing a lot of money along the way. How are you feeling as you begin this next chapter.
Yeah, look, it's it's been a crazy ride these last few years, after a long journey to even get to where we've got to. But you know, it's been good to see back for a few months, be able to refresh myself, be able to work on certain things and aspects of my fighter came and you know, refuel that hunger, you know, and I think you know, I see if you can can see how many fighters in today's day and age have gone and fought my teeth in Malopis and then devonating twice, all within eleven months. It's quite an incredible feature. So I'm very proud of the fights. I'm very proud of the events. I'm proud of the lessons learned, win, lose or draw. You know, you know me, I'm a warrior, my fighter say for me. I learned from everything, and you know, I'm very happy to be back. I'm very excited to be headlining my first official top ranked fight under their banner and live on ESPN. So bring it on.
Yeah, you did take the hard road over the last couple of years. You beat Taffy Malopez and then you go straight into what was probably the toughest two fights you could possibly make with respect to Pasil Lomachenko, David Devin Haney. Uh was as good as it gets in one hundred and thirty five pound division. When you look back at that decision to not take kind of a homecoming fight, UH, to take immediately a match up with Devon Ae, do you have any regrets about the path you chose?
No, definitely not, And you know the fans can can be ouch for me. You know wherever I got here, in Vegas, or you know when I was at the HAINI Lomonchenka, I fought Sam. Many fans cop and say, you know what, you're a different Quanta warrior, you know, to go straight into the fall, or that Fida Gore who saw avoidable for a technician, like a postile fall with Lomonchenka. You know, not many floorters do that. So I'm very proud of them, them, you know them thoughts and what I chose to do when I won the belts. As we know, yes, we could have sat there and milked it and said look at us and made a few eighty dollars. But you know I always wanted to test myself against the best.
And is it eager?
I don't believe. So I believe it's in a competitive nature the corner fod that I am. You know, I want to fight the best and like I said, win, lose with draw, who cares about this zero? We get the best fight, fight and the best. And you know that's why I'm excited to be back. You know, I'm proven of being in the championship fots. This is another championship fought and I'm excited to make another statement, show that hey you can lose a fort you know, I've lost the one guy that's Stevin eighty. Showcase to the world that you know, I've learned from these thoughts.
You were sky high after beating ta Fima Lopez. Uh, you calling yourself the emperor. It was all good for you at that point. Your confidence seemed like it was peaking. Where is your confidence now after those two losses?
Better than ever? It's better than ever because I went twenty four rounds with a call like Devin eighty, I went twelve rounds with a goal like tif and Malapas. I'm better than ever. I'm refreshed, I'm hungry than ever. I don't let nothing else distract me. You know, I know what I want to prove in his sport again. I will be world champion with the IBO this Saturday, and I will put myself a position for an ibfull title as well. So I just want to keep collecting these belts, collecting that legacy. Yes, you're touched on it. There's been a a lot of money being made, but that money is great for my family and my kids. And yes, I'm a prize for it and I've earned that money. But for me, what really wakes me up in the morning. You know, there's a sacrifice, the dedication.
I'm away.
I'm here in Vegas. I haven't been to the strip. I'm away in the suburbs in forty degree heat, putting in the work. I'm on way right now, and that's my motivation to continue building my legacy and showcase that thros Cambuss fights any man living and he's not afraid of anybody and will continue proving himself.
Tell me a little bit more about that, because going into the Lopez fade, I mean, that was your proving ground. You had good wins against Liseell Mickey Bay, but that was your chance to show the world who George Campbosa is, and that was probably your motivation going into that fight. Has it been difficult to find equal or better motivation since the last couple of lasses I got.
I've got better motivation now.
You know.
My motivation now is thriving because as much as I've got a lot of respect from the boxing world and the boxing fans of the route that I took when I became champion, a lot of them think that he's done after losing to Devion eighty.
So I got a point to prove.
I know there are a lot of big fights out there for me, megafoughts, So for me, this is a point to prove, to showcase myself and like I said, my first fight with top rank officially I'm headlining ESPN. I'm here to showcase that Ferocius is back once again. I've been there, I've been at the top of the mountain. I've proven myself. But I'm here to prove myself again. I've got a great team and you're going to say on Saturday the corner fard, I've become a better fighter for it, and you a lock offs are too many guys, don't you know? Judgment on my losses to Devna's a superb fighter, a guy who's very, very avoided, but we chose that route. You know, Judgment Murray too, and that you will see on Saturday.
When you you take losses in your mind, do you need to make changes? You mentioned that you're in Las Vegas doing your training camp there at the top ranked gym. Different climate, of course, but was was there anything else that changed in your game plan, your preparation that you felt needed to be changed after those losses?
Yeah?
Look, I'm back here in the US. You know, I made my emphatic rise to become Chairman of the world doing it in America. Everyone knew about this guy from Australia that was here in the US. He was a spying punt of Manipacia. But he was chasing that road from America, wasn't taking the usual road that Ossie fighters do. They had all heard of camp bases, but they hadn't really seen him yet, So I had to go back to that. I've been out here putting great work in Vegas at the City at thirty Gym, and you know, I got a great team, a great corner, a lot of knowledge in my team. Brought in some new coaches as well, and you know you're going to see a different ferocious still that ferocious fighter, but a guy that has evolved, learned more and continue to become a shooting of the game. And it is extremely hungry. Like we said, we respect Maxa Hughes. We're excited for the fight, and we hope he brings his best, because our best is going to be an extraordinary.
When you started making preparations and making plans for your next fight after the second HANDI loss, what was kind of going through your mind. Then you could have moved up to one forty, you could have gone with a different promoter. What were you looking to do and what are you looking to do now that you're at one thirty five.
My goal and my motivation is to become champion of the world again.
As we know.
Yes it's for the IBI will titter right now, but we want one of the big four. I believe the Irboll will get there is one a few more years that will become one of the belts as well. Not that we need any more belts, but you know one not add another beautiful belt, sat. My motivation is becoming a world champion again.
Really en awful.
The hardware I got the hard way sitting at home. It's the legacy, it's the name, the world champion again. That's my motivation. That's that's the reason I'm out. He's sacrificing so much. I'm away from, you know, my beautiful family and my wife, from my kids. I'm away from you know, the luxuries of being an Australian superstar. You know, there's a lot of luxury out there. So I'm here putting in the work and I'm very, very focused and the way I feel now, I feel better than what I did talking to you. I think the night before I beat Tava Malpas, I remember that clearly having a chat with you on the podcast, that this is this is a better camboss and I can't wait.
And you before that win over Lopez. You know one thing you've mentioned a couple of times a few times is read a lot of custom artible what custom atels said about Muhammad Ali and and and landing that big right hand. Have you done any reading heading to this one? And what is kind of that mental assist that you're getting going into this way.
I'm always reading, I'm always learning more and more. Obviously before the devon A and I fid everyone remembers the art of warsay. I'm not going to touch on that Tom because there were a few memes out there. But you know, you learn more. But I'm assume of this game. You know, I have listened to you know, not really sat there and read too many books this time. I have listened to the old timers, you know, the coaches that I have with me now, you know the guys that come into the gym we've had you would have seen on Twitter, Mike McCallum, who beat one of our grades, Jeff Harding. Just listen to his stories, you know, Fernando Vargas, the original Throosa speaking to him. My coaches, you know, I've been able to listen to their stories and they've got a lot of knowledge. And I'm ashuon of the game. Pick you know their brains and in this time, you know the way that that fighters are. They sit there on social media and try to just see what they can on social media. But I'm old school, like my corner says, and I'll sit there and pick a fighter's brain, a guy who's been there, legendary fight a legend. They're trying to learn as much as I can. We had a great meeting with Bob Barroon who they picking his Brian and learning different things for May.
I'll love to learn.
Is there a piece of advice that you've gotten over the last few weeks and months, whether it's from Mike McCallum or Fernando Vargas or Bob arom that that sticks with you.
Now, there's a good one from my leid coach, Done Else, who he's been around a long time, trying many champions and he hasn't seen some of the ferocious that's coming from his irons. Like he says, I'm old school an excuse more French, but uh, you've got a graaty motherfucker coming in this Saturday. And that's got nothing to do with money. That's that's something that that's going to be shining in the ring. I'm too good to let us off the hook. I've got too much better. Let gos off the hook and every single opinning these guys are gonna pay for it.
So you've got Maxi Hughes in front of you on Saturday. He's also got a lot of the line in this fight. It's as big a fight for him as it is for you. What kind of fight do you're expecting from him?
Yeah? Look, Max is a good fighter. That's the reason we chose him. He's a respectable fighter. He's a guy from the UK. He's done the hard road as well. He's picked up a good string of wins, not massive wins, but but a good string that he's been going on. And we expect the best version of Maxi Hughes. That's where we have prepared extremely well and we can't wait, you know, to step in there. And show him the levels that we are above. But you know there's no disrespect there. We're just excited for Greatford.
I know you're not looking past Max and Hughes, but in the future a rematch that interests you more, is it tf Ma Lopez or Devin Haney.
Look, obviously it's always a bittersweet, you know, winning the bills and losing the bills to goal like Devon Ainy, So obviously that is always there, but like, I don't think that's ever going to happen. Me and Devon have become quite quite good friends, so you know he's going to move up and I've got business to handle at one thirty five. Again, the Lopez fight is always, you know, an interest of mine. You know, beat beat him very well that night. You were there commentating and then we we saw a stream of excuses that came out of his mouth. Say there's always lock to shut him up again. But for me, there's another guy out there which he saw with top rank as a guy that we've been many to evolve on many times. But for now, one main focus is MAXI Hughes. Once he's what's done, then obviously, well, because I getting excited by something else. But for now, MAXI Hughes, that's the only person I have him on one.
It has I've noticed it has bothered you, at least on social media, that Lopez has tried to diminish your win, basically pointing out that he was not physically there for that fight. How much has that bothered you over the last couple of years.
It hasn't really bothered me. Offen It quite funny. I just come in and out on Twitter. Twitter. It's it's quite fascinating. I don't really, you know, show too much emotions. I come in, say a few words and get out and go focus on other things. Look, the fans saw it, they continuely. I'm going to and have a lot about it. At the end of the day, he can come up with it whatever he wants. You were there ringside. You saw the baiting he took. He done a beautiful backflip after the fort too. Is so like I said to him, he teach you how to do that.
He was, he teach you.
So you know, whatever illnesses, whatever Boushi comes out of his mass, that's fine.
I'm happy for him.
You know, he got to picked up a good win. And we'll say what happens in the future, Well.
No question, you got to clean win that night against ay Fema. We'll see what happens this Saturday against Max and Hughes live on ESPN. George, good to see you back man, and good luck on Saturday.
My pleasure, Chris, thank you so much.
That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Mauricio Sulaiman and George camp Boss for joining the show. As always, subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple, podcast, Spotify, wherever you download podcast, and I'll see you next week.
