Boxing with Chris MannixBoxing with Chris Mannix - Heavyweight Havoc
Boxing with Chris Mannix
Chris Mannix will bring fans closer to the sport and its personalities with in-depth conversations with the top names in boxing.
Boxing with Chris Mannix - Tank Returns39:35
Boxing with Chris Mannix - Eddie Hearn32:02
Boxing with Chris Mannix - Boxing Boogeymen1:06:30
Boxing with Chris Mannix - Wilder’s Legacy and the Last Stand of AB1:08:34
Boxing with Chris Mannix - Matchroom/Queensbury Winners and Losers18:52
Boxing with Chris Mannix - Matchroom vs. Queensbury1:00:36
Boxing with Chris Mannix - Heavyweight Havoc59:36
Boxing with Chris Mannix - Bad Blood44:09
Boxing with Chris Mannix - Usyk is Undisputed16:13
Boxing with Chris Mannix - Undisputed1:20:17
Boxing with Chris Mannix - What to Make of Mike Tyson?52:32
Boxing with Chris Mannix - Can Anyone Touch Inoue?1:00:16
Boxing with Chris Mannix - The Canelo Train Rolls Along23:34
Joining Mannix is longtime boxing journalist Keith Idec. Mannix and Idec discuss the announced rematch between Oleksandr Usyk and Tyson Fury, the tug of war for the IBF belt, Canelo's future at super middleweight, Deontay Wilder's crossroads fight against Zhilei Zhang and more. #Volume
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We will have multiple pods again this week because I am headed back to RIODD Saudi Arabia. That's right, RIOD and Saudi Arabia, the new home of Big Time Boxing at least right now. Second time in three weeks I've made the trip over to RIOD. It paid off a couple of weeks ago and we got a great fight between Tyson Fury and Alexander Usik. This time, we have got another incredibly deep card. You got Ammo Williams fighting in a consequential fight. You've got Raymond Ford against Nick Ball in a terrific one hundred and twenty six pound title fight, and of course at the top of the bill, you've got Deontay Wilder against jay Lee Jeong Win or go home for two of the most heavy handed heavyweights in the sport of boxing. I'm excited to go there and excited to talk about that this week. Keith Iidec, longtime boxing writer, longtime boxing journalist and good friend of the podcast. He joins me to talk about the recently announced rematch between Fury and Usik that's going to happen in December back in Saudi Arabia. To the Anthony Joshua factor in all this, AJ does not fit into the title equation this year.
Or at least not that version of the title. Get into that a little bit later as.
Well, but we could we see Fury AJ one or Usik AJ three in two thousand and twenty five. We'll also talk about the terrific fight between Jack Catterall and Josh Taylor this past weekend over in the UK, and we'll get into some of the stuff going on right now with Ryan Garcia. The decision on Ryan Garcia is in the hands of the New York State Athletic Commission. Keith has covered the New Commission for many, many years, so he's got his finger on the pulse of that, and we'll talk about what to expect from that commission with respect to Ryan Garcia in the weeks and months ahead. So stick around for that great conversation coming up with Keith Ideck. As always, subscribe, rate review this podcast on Apple, podcast, Spotify, wherever you download podcasts.
So when we come back my conversation with Keith Ideck.
All right, Keith Idek, longtime boxing writer, good friend of the podcast, back to join me once again, and Keith, I guess we got to start with the breaking news on Wednesday afternoon, and that came courtesy of Turkey Alaschk, who announced that the rematch between Tyson Fury and Alexander Usik is on. It will not happen in October like it was initially penciled in for, but December twenty first in sou Out Arabia. I think we kind of expected this, Keith, after the first fight. Both guys said they wanted it. Obviously. It was a physical fight. You kind of always wondered would there be any kind of wiggle room here where Anthony Joshua might, you know, jump into the middle of this mix. But no, we are going to get Usik Fury Part two in Rianna. Any surprises there on your part.
No, And I'm glad we're going right to the rematch, Chris. It's what people want to see. It was a very competitive fight, you know. I don't think any more go into the second fight thinking that Tyson Fury has no real chance to win. I mean some people thought that he did win. I thought Usik one, and I believe you did too, but very competitive look forward to the second fight. I'm sort of glad that they're taking a little bit more time to go completely recover because they are older guys and they in effect went through two training camps because of the cut to Tyson Fury's eye that delayed the fight for three months, So in a way, they probably needed a little bit more of an extended break than they would have gotten had the fight been scheduled for October. So good, and it aligns with what Turkey Alischik did last year, having the Day of Reckoning card two days before Christmas. This is the last Saturday before Christmas again this year, so it makes perfect sense in that way. And yeah, I'm just glad we're getting I'm glad they're both committed to doing it again. It's a lot of money to walk away from, of course, but I think people are really looking forward to it because the fight had a lot of ebbs and flows, and there'd be a lot of anticipation going into the second fight.
Yeah, even though October feels like a long way away, it's really not for a boxer, because you're talking about getting back into training camp in what early August maybe, and after a fight that was that physical where both those guys had wounds coming off at twelve rounds, you know, knocking each other around. Getting an extra couple of months, I think is is better for their health. I think it's gonna make for a better fight, probably gonna have both guys at close to two going into that fight. A couple of wrinkles to all this Devil's Advocate, would you have wanted to see an Anthony Joshua Tyson Fury fight in that slot? I mean, I know Fury's coming off that loss, but every time it feels like we get close to getting age, Higg gets Fury kind of the ball gets pulled away from us. Whether it was AJ losing to Usik a couple of years ago, now Fury losing to Usik. If you had your preference, would you rather see Usik Fury two or Fury AJ one.
I think we'll all want to see Tyson Fury fight Anthony Joshua at some point. It's a They've been circling each other for quite some time and has not worked out for some of the reasons you mentioned, Chris, but I would rather see the rematch because it will it would no matter that Philip Hergovich and Danie Dubarr fighting for the IBF title, all that aside. This is for the undisputed championship. So Tyson Fury could have assured that he you know, he can assure that he will fight Anthony Joshua, but Joshua by going and beating Alexander Usik, right, so he can make sure that that happens by winning this rematch, and then we'll finally get that fight, maybe an England, as Turkey Galashika has mentioned. So you know, let's see what happens. I'm glad we're getting the rematch immediately. It's the it's the fight that people want to see. People wouldn't want to see Tyson Fury coming off of a close even though it was a close, competitive fight, closer than Joshua's two fights with Usik. I don't think people would want to see him then go and fight Joshua. I think they want to see him fight Lusick again next.
If Fury winds up losing the rematch, he's going to be an underdog going into that fight. But if he winds up losing that rematch, does that end the Fury AJ possibility forever? I mean, I guess nothing is forever. But you know, Aj right now is fighting pretty well. You know, he's on a multi fight winning streak. He's in line for a world title shot. But if Fury loses again at what at or close to thirty six years old, do you think we we'll ever get that fight? Do you think it's almost a must win for Fury to make that fight viable?
I don't, Chris, because I think as long as they're both active fighters, and even if one of them announces his retirement, I think there will always be that lore there and the money will be there, assuming they're not too old, of course for them to fight. Because if let's just say Usik wins the second fight, I don't really see the purpose of him fighting Joshua again. It matters to Joshua because he lost the two fights. Way, Yeah, there's no purpose to it, right. Look, if they're going to pay you.
I mean you're not buying the Ben Davison is going to change Anthony Joshua completely.
It's going to be a complete different fight.
He's going to be a complete different fighter, because I don't like and I love Ben Davison, but I'm not buying that.
You know.
The other thing, Chris is I'd be hesitant to pay for it if I were in the position, if I were Turkey al Chic and I had the funding to pay for the fight. I don't know that people there's much of an appetite for it. Because he won the first two fights, there was no controversy. One of them was a split decision, of course, but there's no one clamoring for that third fight. There's nothing to clean up, so to speak, by them fighting a third time. So if I'm usick, and I'm pushing forty years old at that point, and I've now beaten Joshua twice, I've beaten Fury twice, you know, and you're a two time, a two division undisputed champion, and you've made all this money, what are you even sticking around for at that point? So I could see. So what I could see happening is if he wins the second fight and then he goes off into retirement, maybe the titles become available, and then the Fury Joshua fight winds up somehow being for all the titles or maybe someone else has another one or something like that, and who really cares about that at this point, you know, just follow the lineage at that point, I guess, but I don't know. Well, we'll see what happens. But I think we all will want to see Fury and Joshua fight before their careers end. That I think there's always going to be a public demand, particularly in England for that fight, So you know, maybe it will still happen. But of course, if Fury win is the second fight and then he's not contractually committed to a third fight with the sign, well there you go. But this was also dependent on Joshua continuing to win, and he's supposed to fight the winner of the Dubois Herkovic fight. You know, those are not easy fights necessarily, although Joshua's looked great over the last few fights. But so even if Usak wins the rematch and retires, the heavyweight division is still interesting because there's enough relevant guys and exciting guys for people to be interested in the division.
Yeah, and I think there's the potential for Fury Joshua to be massive, right, Like, if Fury can win the rematch, which is certainly possibly fought great in the first half of that fight against Duisiic before eventually wearing down ninth round was a disaster.
But let's say.
Hypothetically Fury wins the rematch, AJ wins a fight against the winner of Dua and Herkovich and winds up with one of the pieces of the heavyweight title around his waist all of a sudden. It's kind of reminds you of a couple of years ago when Aj was the unified champion with three belts.
Fury will be the unified champion with three belts.
They can meet again in Saudi Arabia, Wembley Stadium, wherever, and it would be just a huge, huge event. So I think there's the potential for it to still be as big as it always could have been. But I do wonder if Fury gets beat soundly in this fight against Dousik, what is the appetite going to be at least immediately, right do they need to take does Fury to fight somebody else in between to get kind of some momenta back, or do we go right into a Fury AJ fight for one belt in twenty and twenty five.
I just don't know.
I think I think it makes it a lot more complicated if Tyson Fury gets beat again.
And the other thing, Chris is you mentioned if Fury gets beaten convincingly. I wonder if he would even fight again if he got beat decisively, because that's never happened before. He's never had to deal with that like he I thought he handled his loss with for the most part, with class. I mean, he felt like he won the fight, but he didn't sit there and cry that it was a robbery and this is a travesty of justice and all this kind of stuff. He said, look, he won the fight, we have a rematch clause I thought I won, will go settle it in the ring. But if he lost, let's just say he lost decisively, like ten rounds to two, and there is no question whatsoever about who won the fight. Does a guy like Tyson Fury, who's been up and down from a psyche standpoint and everything, does he convince himself that he wants to continue to do this because he's made an enormous amount of money and he's accomplished a lot of things. Of course, so I just wonder if he would even want to put himself when there's some more self doubt maybe than there ever was before. Does he want to put himself through everything that's required to compete at the elite level?
You know, when I think about this rematch, one of the things that comes to mind is Tyson Fury has got to clean up his corner.
Man.
Like I didn't notice this in real time because I was in riand and I couldn't hear what was happening in the corner. But there was a lot of chon Fury in that corner being loud, right, And John Fury is not the trainer of Tyson Fury. Sugar Hill Stewart is the trainer of Tyson Fury. That's the guy who has you know, guided him from that draw against Deontay Wilder too now with a you know, with I think he missed one fight maybe in between, like this is the guy like that is who is charged with giving him instructions.
You can't, Keith, have chaos in your corner.
You can't have multiple voices yelling at or instructing you. I mean you look at compared to Usik's corner like completely discipline, one voice, one.
You know, completely locked in type of corner.
Then you go over to Tyson's corner, and this is like, you know, sugar Hill's trying to give instructions and you know John Fury's yelling about how manly they are, Like it's just none of it doesn't It doesn't help you in a fight like this. Look, you have to be sharp as attack going up against alexand Usik because he is going to be in your face all night long. He is going to have a better game plan than you most likely, and if you're just a little bit off, that could be the difference between winning and losing. It's as simple as that. So if I'm Tyson Fury going into this rematch like it's your father, I get that you're not gonna banish him from your team, but I think you want to make it clear to him like I got a trainer here. He's the one that does all the talking in between rounds. You can't say anything, Chris.
It's an impossible position for sugar Hill Stewart to be in, and somewhat of an impossible position for Tyson Fury to be in, because, as you said, it's his dad. He's a huge figure in his life. Of course, So how do you tell you what are you gonna tell him go sit in this crowd, get out of here, or you could do that, because the biggest thing that you need, Chris as you well know, you sit. You know, you're right there in the corners at the fights these days, you know, much more so than the rest of us for the most part. But you know that when what you need more than anything in those basically forty five ish seconds, because you really don't have a minute by the time you get back to the corner, you sit on the stool, everybody gets in the ring and everything. You got about forty to forty five seconds to really instruct a fighter and to calm him down. You need calm in that corner. You don't need. The last thing you need is someone screaming. Now, if it's someone trying to motivate a fighter because the fighter is not fighting in a you know, if the fighter's listless, or it just needs kind of a wake up call or something like that.
That's a little bit of Bundini brown action in the corner exactly.
But or even in a more understated way, when Emmanuel Stewart did it right, I mean, you know, you know whatever I mean, I'm not saying there's never a call for that. But you can't constantly have that in your corner round after round after round, particularly as you said, when he's not even the head trainer, and a guy like sugar Hill Stewart Stewart is, he's a He's much like Emmanuel Stewart. He's an understated guy. He doesn't get all hyped up and scream and everything. That's not his way. He's looking to give you concise instructions and that short amount of time. And the last thing he needs is to be drowned out by John Fury or anyone else yelling things at Tyson Fury that is just going to distract him from what he's being told.
And John Fury's had this weird thing with sugar Hill for a while now. He's tried to get him out of there, you know, in the past, and I don't really get it. I mean, I thought sugar Hill was exactly what Tyson needed after he parted ways with Ben Davison. I think what was missing in Tyson's game plans was aggression coming forward. You saw that in the second fight against Deontay Wilder so and again in the third fight.
I mean, he has been kind of a round peg.
Round hole type of fit, and for whatever reason, he has not been kind of in sync with with John Fury.
What John Fury.
Wants, Well, John Fury wants to be a Soun's.
Trader, which is like nonsense, like that's.
Crazy, but that's what he wants. It's his son, he named them tyson. I get it. It makes as you know, Chris, you know, covering this business for a long time, these father son relationships are extremely complicated, more often than not don't work out.
And then it's like eighty twenty doesn't work out ultimately if it's like the twenty percent, but it most more often than not doesn't.
Yeah, and then this one's even stranger because he's not the trainer, and you know, he's a he's he's nuts, I mean really right. I mean he's had buddy people in the face storing fight. I mean, the guy's you know, he cares about his son and he'll go to tooth and nail to fight for his son and his family. But he's a madman, there's no two ways about it. So I don't know how that helps. Like you said, when you need some tranquility in your corner between rounds.
So you mentioned the IBF title, and the expectation going into the Fury Usk fight was that after the fight, the IBF would strip the winner. Because Philip Arkovitch been waiting around for like two years for his opportunity to fight for that IBF belt, we had Usik apply for an exception this week, and look, I'm sure you've talked to members of Herkovic's team that they are adamantly against granting that exception.
They believe they waited long enough.
Are you surprised at all that as we sit here recording this on Wednesday, that we haven't had a ruling on this. Like it seemed to me that this was obviously going to be a situation where Herkovic on Saturday fights Daniy Dubois for the IBF titles.
I still think that he will, Chris, I don't know what the hold up is, but they have been adamant about following their rules. You can't say that for the better part of the last I don't know how many every years it's been. They stripped glove Can, They've stripped many other champions.
They stripped Tyson Fury after Fury beat Vladimir Klitschko. There you go, so the Czar glasgowf against Charles Martin, so it's not like they stripped it for a bigger fight.
Well, in this case, the same principle applies, right, I mean, you're not going to make nearly as much. So I commend them in that way because look, when we're first to u lamb base the sanctioning bodies, and oftentimes were well within reason. You also have to point out when they're doing the right thing. They are adhering to their rules. And I've heard people say, oh, well who care. I've heard now on social media, who cares about the rules. Well, you can't have it both ways. I mean some of their mandatory challengers don't deserve title shots. William Skull your boy. They're a perfect case in point.
How does he become my boy? How is William Skull my boy?
I mean, just because you've mentioned them several times on the podcast, because I'm joking, obviously.
You get fathom how he became the ib of mandatory.
So like, when they put people in the position in which they don't belong, well then they should be criticized. In this case, Herkovic has fought his way into that position. And how long are you supposed to wait for your title shot. I mean you can't. He can't keep taking fights that you know, some of them are less risky than others, particularly his last fight.
But this is this is your boy.
It's the other Keith's boy, I would say. But that's neither here nor there.
Shadow Keith Conley forgetting pay day for that fight.
He's a smart man. But but all joking aside, Chris, like the Dan new Dubois fight is not an easy fight because Hergovich Herkovic is a very good fighter. But he went tooth and nail with Julee Jong, who obviously has proved that he's capable of doing what people thought he was long capable of doing right. That was a tough fight. But Dubois, I mean, there are people who will tell you for the rest of our natural lives, Chris, that Daniel Dubois should have left the ring last August with Usik's titles because that was a borderline body shot. Usik sold it. Maybe should have been knocked out. Obviously Dubois folded after that and completely fell apart, But that's neither here nor there. What happened in the fifth round still happened. So point being this is Do you think.
That while we're on it, do you think that.
Oh No, I don't know, man, I don't know. I mean that was a that to me looked like a border based on where his belt line was, where the referee said his belt line was before the fight, and where the punch landed. I would say it's debatable.
I'll just say that get even if I think it was below the belt.
But even if it wasn't, my point with all this has been immediately after the shot landed, Louis Pabone looked at Usk stayed down, like he told him immediately to stay down. I think if Pabon had started to count, Usik would have gotten up. I think USA took advantage of every minute that he was given, and I think he gave him to many. But yeah, like the full five minutes to recover.
Yeah, he had quite some time there. That's fine, that's kind. I'm not saying you're wrong, because in real time, we'll never know what would have happened, right, Who knows. It's all speculation at this point. Maybe. Yeah, with all of his titles on the line, I guess logic would dictate that he would have dragged himself off the canvas somehow and continued to fight. But boy, he took his sweet old time, like you said, recovering from that, he does. He's had difficulty dealing with body shots in the past, and look, it is what it is. Danny Dubois had his opportunities after that to get Usick out of there, and again he fell apart. He lost mentally, physically, he just folded. So but just to circle back to why I originally said that this is not an easy fight for Philip Pergovitch, right, So my point related to the IBF belt is, Okay, he fought Mark de Morey. Now he's taking a difficult fight, and let's just say it's not for the title. For whatever reason, the IBF goes against everything that it has stated publicly for a very long time and led everyone in all of those camps to believe that that was going to happen. Now if they turn around, they do it about face and they don't do that. Well, I don't know how you explain that publicly necessarily, But beyond that, how many difficult let's say Hergovich wins, how many more? Because then the titles are going to be tied up for quite some time. How many fights is Philip Hergovich or in this maybe Dan and Dubas. How many fights are they supposed to win before they get the shot that they're supposed to get. Now, I would preface all this by saying this four belt system is idiotic and shouldn't exist, and we shouldn't be talking about any of this. I wholeheartedly agree with anyone who takes that perspective, because really it's the only perspective to take right, the only sensible thing that we could say about this four belt system. It's dumb and it shouldn't exist. So we're arguing about something that we all agree is nonsense. However, that's what we have to deal with in this sport unfortunately, and because that those are the rules we're operating within. I think Pergrivich and Dubois should fight for the title on Saturday, and you know, look, someone's gonna have someone from the IBF is gonna have to answer publicly why they are not if they don't because they told Usik and Fury that that and again, who cares? Right if they fight for three titles instead of nobody cares? No one is going to say, oh, well you didn't beat Philip Ergovich or you didn't beat Daniel Well, uh Usik would have beaten Danie Dubois. But you know what I'm saying.
I mean, no one's gonna say even now, it's technically it's technically like five like Ring magazine. The IBO belt, I think is thrown in there like it doesn't matter like these these are the two best heavyweights in the world. No, like I get one to have undisputed like one time, just so you can be the undisputed vahgamp of the world. That is a honor that you can never take away from alexand Usik.
But after that it's irrelevant.
And Chris, I think, let's just say they strip Usik of this title, Dubon Herbovich fight for it on Saturday. No one in their right mind come December is going to say, well, the winner's not the undisputed champion. Anyone who says that is either in fury and or Usik's family or team or something. No one is going to say that that, you know what I mean.
M Yeah, it's it's kind of foolish, but I do guess.
Sorry, I meant, I meant Hergovich or Dubai's family not the fan right. They wouldn't make that argument, of course, But.
I do think that it's important for the IBF to do the right thing here because again they when Tyson Fury had the biggest win of his career against Vladimir Klitschkow, the IBF turned around and immediately stripped him when the plan was at the time to have a rematch against Klitchko, and then went out and made one of the worst heavyweight title fights you will ever see with zar Glasgov and Charles Martin, the fight that ended with zar Glasgov collapsing with a knee problem and never fighting again. So if you're going to do it in a situation like that, you've got to it in a situation like this.
While we're talking.
About the IBF and my man William Skull, who I think rightly belongs on comfort poundless, he.
Has been ordered to face Canelo Alvarez.
I love that Skulls team was like, we don't need to negotiate, Let's just go right to a purse. Bad screw it, Like, let's make this happen. Let's get this all over with before there could be any more delays. Reporting out there indicates that Canelo is going to vacate that IBF title, which I guess would mean we get like William Skull versus Vladimir Chiskin for the one hundred and sixty eight pound title. I don't know who's who's buying that, who's who's putting that on on the airwaves. But any surprise, because Canelo has been pretty adamant about holding onto these titles as long as he can, any surprise that he's not going forward with a William Skull title defense.
I'm not surprised, Chris, because who in the right mind would buy that fight? I mean, but I remember, really, I mean, you worked for his own doesn't want to put up the money.
I don't know they did that. It was called out in the yild room. They did that, No I know, And yeah.
So they did it to remain in the Canelo business for the time being. But you're not going to continue doing that. I mean, his owne's business model is not going to support something like that, and PBC's business model certainly is not going to support something like that. So there's no point to the I get it. Somebody's got to be the mandatory and whether it's William Skull or Vladimir Shishkin or someone else who can't beat Canelo outaz, whatever the case might be. Again, the same principle applies here as it does to the heavyweight division, of course, in that if canelovacates one of the titles and ship Vladimir Shishkin fights William Skull for the IBF title and then Canelo goes and fights, probably going to be a berlanga. No one's going to say that Canelo is not the undisputed champion anymore. He proved it in the ring. So it's a lot of wasted time related to a system that shouldn't exist. So it's what we have to deal with in covering this sport, or if you're a fan of this sport, consuming it, you just have to deal with these things. Unfortunately, but we all know what the real deal, right, I mean, Kennello is the undisputed champion. He's probably not gonna fight David Benevetez anytime soon, and those are all things we're gonna have to deal with, you know.
Yeah, Look, I wonder if this is going to be the beginning of Canelo dropping all these belts, because look, he transcends them. Right, he's the number one guy at one sixty eight, he's the moneyman at one sixty eight.
He doesn't need titles to validate him.
In fact, he probably saves himself a little bit of money if he just keeps like that ring magazine belt around his waist and keeps calling himself the lineal champion now that he's no longer undisputed.
I wonder if he's going to.
Be motivated to pay the WBA sanctioning feest, the WBO sanctioning feeest, the WBC sanctioning fees like. I wonder if if this is the beginning to see those belts.
Fragment again and away.
Keith, I kind of so, because I think that's a pathway to big fights in that division. I think not having titles on the line holds up fights like you know, throw names out like Diego but Checko against Christian and Bilee, or you know, Caleb Plant against him Mangia or like you know, fights that that could be made for a vacant world title might now be possible.
If Canelo says, you know what, I did it, I accomplished it.
I don't need it anymore, probably sucks for Edgar Berlanga, who you know, was kind of hoping he was going to get to fight for all the belts and not that he would be a favorite of any kind in a light against Canelo, but for boxing, I kind of think it's a good thing to see Canelo kind of let some of these belts go.
Yeah. I agree, and from Edgar Berlanga's perspective, it'll save him some sanctioning fees as well.
Right, Because are you a believer?
Do you think this is I mean, if we're getting into June now, which is right around the time and Cane usually makes a decision about that September fighter, you have the belief that Berlanga is still the front runner to face it.
Yes, I do, because who is he going to fight otherwise? Right, I mean, he's obviously not fighting William Skull. He has zero point zero interest in fighting David Benavitez anytime soon. That's the fight that makes the most sense from his perspective. I don't think there's much public appetite for that fight, as I've you and I have mentioned at nauseum on this podcast, and meant the other people have said as well. But he's undefeated, Puerto Rico versus Mexico type of thing, and more important than anything, Canell all wants it to happen. So if he's willing to take a little bit of a pay cut to make that fight happen for what he probably perceives as a fight that will win rather convincingly, well then it's going to happen. Because Canelo can do whatever he wants, and that's you know, that's one of the great things about being the most bankable boxing star in the United States. You can do what you want, and people, of course have the option to either buy it or don't buy it, or attend or don't attend. That's always everyone's option, of course. But he can do what he wants, and he he literally said in the ring after the fight, I'm going to do whatever I want. I don't think he could have made it a clear than that that's what he said.
I I'd like to just go on record and point out that your attitude towards William Skull is wildly disrespectful, and when he becomes a world champion next, I hope you publicly apologize.
Because that fight he.
Had he might against Sean hemp Bill I was there Keith when he fought Sean hemp Bill Ringside. I was one of the eleven people in the building that watched that fight.
He's ready.
An eight rounder against Sean Hemple makes you ready for a world title fight, So go go wive Skull.
To be fair, Chris and I know you're half kidding, but.
I'm really kidding William half about it.
William Skull is a is a decent five, but he has no business being in the ring with Canelo out whereas much like most of the people in the super riddleweight division like him, against Shiskin's the real fight now. Shishkin's decent. I've seen Shiskin fight at numerous times on Showbox and on Showtime.
He's got to get is a lot better than williams Skull. I honestly think he's not better than William Skull.
I think it's you know, he would be the Shishkin would be the I don't.
We're doing all.
We can't do Skull talk right now. We can't do Shiken Skull right We will be.
Slightly favored to win the fight, and probably will win the fight, but that's a fight that the ladis William Skull belongs in.
You know, yes, a more reasonable fight forward there, But we can have a separate conversation about how guys like that wind up in mandatory positions, like how someone with you know, kind of a half of a credible win on his resume and when he had a couple of years ago, how that warrants the number one position in the Sanctuary Bodies rankings.
But we'll do that another time.
I want to ask you about the fight we had this past weekend between Jack Catterall and Josh Taylor, which turned out to be an incredible fight or a very good fight, and had an incredible outburst from Bob Aram afterwards.
Take a listen, what's important to you now?
Everybody else? Those score cause who were disgrace or an absolute discrave.
And I really feel.
Sorry for Josh. I thought he won the fight, but those score cards were ridiculous, and that's the lesson. I will never ever allow an American fighter to come here to with this British born scoring the fight. Those scores were ridiculous.
Before we get to the fight, you've been, uh, maybe on the receiving end of some Bob Aram outbursts in the past. Where do you rank that on the Bob Aram outburst scale.
That's just Bob being Bob. You know, I gotta I gotta be honest, Chris. I mean I kind of marvel at Aaron in the sense that he's, you know, ninety two years old, travels all over the world. I'm fifty two years old, and I know, you know, you do a ton of traveling and everything. But sometimes I'm like, oh Jesus, we got to fly here. You know, you're thankful for your job, of course, but you know, the traveling wears you out. Sometimes. I don't know how this guy does it. I mean, of course he's wealthy and you know, and you know, everything's first class and all that kind of stuff. But Bob has an amazing amount of energy for someone his age. Uh, still has all his faculties as far as I can tell. I mean when I when I talk to him, he's, you know, he's as sharp as he was ten years ago.
Uh.
I think he was laying it on thick a little bit in that. I don't think Josh Taylor was robbed. He was right about the two one seventeen one eleven scorecards. Those were two wide. I did think that Caterall won to the fight, and in real time when I was watching it, I had at one fifteen, one thirteen for Caterall. In that case, could you see someone getting to one sixteen, one twelve if you scored it one fifteen, one thirteen. Sure, one seventeen one eleven seems a little wide because that's only giving three rounds to Taylor, and he did come on in the second half of the fight until Caterall, of course heard him in the eleventh round. Uh. It was a very good fight, Chris, you know, much more entertaining than their first fight, a little less you know, a lot less holding actually, because Catererall ac should have point deducted in the first fight for holding. As you know, it was entertaining. You know, I enjoyed it. I thought that Catererall the first fight really could have gone either way. Of course, Taylor got knocked down and then they both had points deducted, so you know, there there was reason why that was considered controversial. I don't think there was any real controversy here. And again credit to Josh Taylor. These two guys clearly don't like each other, right, I mean, oftentimes that's a byproduct of just being boxing rivals that I heard Josh on your podcast last week in another place is saying, I don't really know Jack. I don't hate him or anything. I don't know him, you know, but he's a rival in the business sense. And I thought Taylor handled that with class. He said, Look, I thought I won. It was a close fight, you know the word that they use, and he nicked it. He won the fight. If he wants to go fight for a world title, he's earned that right by winning the fight, and then we could revisit the third fight from there. I thought that was a very classy way for Josh Taylor to have handled that. And there have been times in the past when people have accused Josha being not with us, and he's always been great with to deal with from a media standpoint, but people have thought he was a little crass and that kind of thing, and I thought he handled this loss with dignity.
Yeah.
First of all, I do think these scores were a touch wise. I scored at sixteen twelve in favor of Catterall. If he scored a fifteen thirteen Catall, that's fine too. I do think going apoplectic about scorecards being too wide when your guy didn't win. Like, there's almost no scenario you can come up with, say, Josh Taylor won that fight. I think that loses the plot a little bit. Like that's not worth melting down over. Certainly not your Bob Aram. It's not worth grabbing the microphone and saying you're never bringing an American fighter over to the UK because of this British board.
That felt like an excessive out burst.
I mean, I understand he's from Scotland and the fight was in England. Yes, Josh Taylor is British too, So I don't know that has to do it. I don't know what it doesn't it. But again, Chris, it's just Bob being Bob in a quiet moment. I don't think he believes that he's defending his fighter. That's what he's supposed to do. That's what makes him Bob Aaron. He's going to go, you know, tooth and nail for his fighter. He wanted to show Josh that he was in his corner, so to speak, and so he said what he said. Part of it also is it's on Eddie's card. Bob has this rivalry with Eddie. He's gonna make it, try to see like you know, ah, his guy. You know, you know how it goes. I mean, it's all part of the show, so to speak. And it's fine. I don't really think Bob really thought. I haven't spoken to him since he came back from the fight, but I don't think he really thought that it was some highway robbery or anything like that. It was closer than two of the scorecards indicated, for sure, But that's about it.
And Bob always backs his guy, yeah, no matter what. Like he thought Lomachenko beat Haney, he thought Fury beat Oosick. Now he thinks Taylor beat Catterall that is always gonna be Bob's position, Like I didn't even know he was.
Gonna like Bob.
Like Bob is in his nineties here, like he he made the effort to climb into the ring, to grab the mic and to go off like that, like that was something.
And Chris, as you know, because you see him in person quite often, it's not easy for him to get around. It's not you know, it's you know, he's ninety two years old, man, I mean it's you know, it's amazing that he that he has the energy that he did that. As I mentioned, before. But you know, for him to climb up the steps and get in the ring, that's that takes a lot of effort at this point, you know, Derek, you know, being on his side and all that kind of stuff. So it was amusing.
I love seeing I love seeing Brad Jacobs standing there executive over a top rank kind of like just doing anything possible to stay out of camera shot. There, Bob's doing his thing, Brad's kind of leaning back away from everything.
Well because Brad and Todd and Carl and those guys, they have to clean up the messes that Bob makes me sometime, so you know. But he didn't say that the fight was rigged or anything. I mean, I think he was just kind of poking at Eddie a little bit too while defending Josh Taylor also poking at Eddie a little bit, and he knows it was a competitive fight, so you know, And.
Look, I think a third fight makes the most sense. Like, you know, Caterall's out there calling out Taffima Lopez and I guess that's possible, But I don't know what Tafimo's motivation is for a fight like that. Caterall is not a big name. I don't think Taffima was going over to the UK for that particular fight. It just doesn't for me, It doesn't track that that Taffima would fight Jack Caterall. At this point, I think there's real money in a third fight with Taylor. I think you do it at an even bigger venue in the UK. It did what eleven thousand plus, Yeah in Leeds. Uh, maybe you go to O two, Maybe go somewhere else in London. I think the crowd gets even bigger. That's a huge domestic fight and even the wrong titles on the line. I think there's as much or more money in a third fight with Taylor for Caterall as there might be in a fight against Daffy Molpez.
And it's one of those cases where the titles really don't matter. There wasn't a title let's stake here, whereas their first fight was for all all four of the one hundred and forty pound titles didn't matter. I think they sold those eleven thousand tickets if I'm remembering correctly, in like an hour or so, so they could have clearly sold out a bigger venue. And like you said, it's a big domestic fight. There's now going to be much more of an appetite for the third fight probably than there was for the second fight, because it was entertaining. You know, it was more decisive, I thought, than the first fight, of course, but it was an entertaining fight, you know. I mean, Taylor seems to be in control in the eleventh round. It looks like he you know, he wins the eleventh, twelfth rounds, maybe he wins the fight, and then he gets crushed with that you know, off of a wasn't off of a break, but it was a few seconds after like a clean break, and he gets clipped with that punch and he was hurt, you know, and that changed the course of the rest of the fight and got cataall back into it. A lot of ebbs and flows to the fight, and uh it was really interesting, and like you said, they probably could make more money. But then if you're Catterall, you want your title shot too. So I so now he feels vindicated because he feels like he won the first fight. He definitely won the second fight, and now he wants to go try to fight for a world title. And as you said, is Tiafimo gonna be eager to uh you know, to cross the ocean there and go fight him if they pay him enough, maybe, But you know, he is he gonna want after what happened against Jermaine Ortiz. Is he gonna want to who's not who fought as a southball basically not basically fought as a southball the whole fight. Uh? Is he gonna want to go and fight another southball? You know? I don't know, it's gonna it's It's gonna be interesting to see what he does after this, uh absolute layup that he has next month.
Yeah, And it's not like Catall can force a mandatory here. He's right now sixth by the WBO. He's gonna move up when the new rankings come out. But you've got Barboza sitting there at the top, You've got Richson Hitchens at number two, Jose Ramirez is there, Siner Martine is there. So I don't think he's gonna be able to like kind of push a mandatory shot at Ta Femo.
It would come down to money.
I just don't know, Like, is Eddie Hern going to offer like seven figures to get to FEMA to come over and fight Jack Catterall.
I don't know. Is there money for it in the US on a US show. I don't know that that either.
I think when the dust settles, I think the money most money is gonna be for Josh Taylor trilogy fight, and I think that's the direction. Ultimately, both those guys are gonna go a couple of things for you before I let you go. I'm gonna talk more about the five on five when I get to Riod later on this week. But the most intriguing fight from an American perspective is probably the Deontay Wilder je Le Jong fight, which pits two guys who have a lot of power and a lot of questions, right like Deontay Wilder coming off a bad loss to Joseph Parker back in December, Jallee Jeong coming off a bad loss to Joseph Parker a couple of months earlier. As you look at this fight, who do you have more questions about? Both these guys are well past their prime, Wilder at his late thirty Jang in his early forties. Which one of these two has more questions coming into this fight?
I have more questions about Deontay Wilder Chris, and it's because he's only won one fight in the last four and a half years, right, he bet and that was a first round knockout against Robert Hillanius. Yeah, that was impressive coming off of basically a one year layoff and everything. And Hellnius had rejuvenated his career by beating Karonowski twice in a row, stopping him twice in a row. So that was a good win in a comeback fight for Deontay Wilder. But otherwise, you know, he he got steamrolled basically in the rematch with since his previous win which against which against the Louis Ortiz in November of twenty nineteen, a fight he was also losing on all three scorecards, pretty convey.
Instantly hip right, Yeah, I think it was, yeah, right.
Before he detonates one of those right hands, which always makes him dangerous, as we often say, but he since then he's been dominated by Tyson Fury. In the rematch, he almost knocks out Tyson Fury in the third fight, but ultimately gets like not spark out as they say in the UK, Right, I mean, he got knocked out violently in that fight, and then he looked terrible against Joseph Parker. He looked disinterested. He looked listless. He'd looked uninspired, I mean, find whatever abject to be one. He looked like he was there to collect the check. Frankly, that's the way it looked to me. So I don't know if that rejuvenated him in the sense that it makes him want to come back and prove himself against Julais Joan julia is a big puncher. He yes, he also lost to Joseph Parker. So these are the two guys I can't even believe we're saying this really the two guys who lost to Joseph Parker, who are, for one a former interim champion, won a long reigning WBC champion, guys who've lost to Joseph Parker and are kind of fighting right after that. But at least Jong knocked him down twice. He didn't throw it nearly enough punches in the fight, and he definitely lost. But there were moments when you thought he was gonna knock Joseph Parker out third round.
I thought he was gonna knock him out right, and.
He probably should have and regrets not doing that, of course. So he's very dangerous. He's got a good chin, he's been down in his career before. But he's got he's got a very very good chin. So I want to see from Wilder what does he have left? Because also I'm very much looking forward to this fight. You know, it's a it's a good consolation prize if we're not going, you know, because we can't get Bivol and better Beev as we were supposed to see on Saturday night. It's a hell of a main event and the cards pretty stacked otherwise too, some very interesting fights beneath the main event there. But I want to see what Deontay Wilder has left. He's thirty eight years old, he has one win in the last four and a half years. He looked like he didn't want to be in the ring the last time in it. So let's see what he's got left. And you know, Jeong has a good chin, but he's there to be hit. And if Deontay hits you, I don't care who you are. I mean, you're gonna be in trouble at some point if you if you get hit enough clean from one of those punches. So I mean both these guys yea and in some ways Jeong is not. In some ways he's a more complete fighter. He'll set you up like he set up that right hook against Joseph Parker Joe Joyce in the rematch and got him out of there. He's a smart guy and he's and he finally started living up to his potential. But he has the same problem now that he has had for most of his career. Stamina is not the best, doesn't throw enough punches. That's what cost him in the fight against Joseph Parker. Joe Joyce, of course, is there to be hit for everyone, and he took it, you know, complete advantage of that in two fights. But if he beats Deontay Wilder, even though wild they're lost to Parker, that's another very good win for Jean and puts him back in the mix for another This is a huge fight too, I mean it's too again a former long reigning world champion and a guy who beat Joe Joyce twice and is pretty talented guy. But he's forty one Wilder's thirty eight. Lots to prove for both guys, but I have more questions about Wilder and I just don't know what's left of Deontay Wilder.
I want to get to Wilder, but you've covered Jong for a while. He trains in New Jersey. You know his trainer Sean George very Well. I gotta tell you, Keith, I was shocked by how lackluster he was in that fight against Joe Joyce, because he looked great in those two fights again, not Joe Joyce against Joseph park He looked great in the two fights against Joe Joyce, you know, beat down a guy that was kind of approaching Boogieyman status in the heavyweight division. Granted, Chinnd couldn't be stopped well. Jay Lee Jeong stopped him twice. The second time just obliterated him, one of those face first knockouts that you rarely see in boxing today. Then he goes out against Joseph Parker and he has a great moment in the third round where he knocks him down and.
Then just does nothing.
He does nothing when he wasn't landing impactful shots, which happened like twice, he was getting hit, he was getting out thrown like. That was the moment, Keith, where I wondered, is this the fight we just saw Jong age because he hadn't looked age up to that point, even against Philip Perkovic. Yeah, I got tired a little bit towards the end of that fight, but he was still very much in it. Besides the times he knocked Joseph Parker down, he wasn't in that fight against him, and I didn't know what to make of it. I was texting with some of the people in his team, with you know, the Laine brothers and the others that are over there.
I'm like, what just happened here?
And the texts I got back were like, this is not the guy that was in the gym for the last couple of months.
We don't know what went on.
So look, if Jay Lee Jeong is the guy that we saw fight against Joe Joyce, I think he knocks Deontay wilderouse if he's the guy that we saw against Joseph Parker, because Jong does not have a great chin like he does. He's been knocked down early in his career, and even Parker wobbled him a little bit with some shots. I think he I think if he's that same guy, he's the one that's going to get knocked out.
Well, look again, anyone who gets caught clean by Deontay Wilder is going to have a problem. Whether I do think John has a good jin though, Chris, I would I would dispute that a little bit in the sense that, you know, he held up well against Hergovich, he did, you know, and I've seen him spar in the gym, and of course it's sparring as much.
That dropped him, like it was like a it was very v earlier in his career.
It was a nondescript opponent that dropped him. And and he came back, obviously, he came back to the fight and all that stuff. But you know, and then the thing happened with Jerry Forrest where he wasn't drinking water and he looked completely depleted.
And the craziest life stories ever had I wrote. It's still the craziest.
And the thing is, Look, he's forty one years old, right, I mean, let's not discount that. I mean, he's a he's an old guy. He's an old guy. I mean he used to like smoke cigarettes and stuff, like he did a lot of wild stuff for a guy who was like supposed to be an elite level athlete. Remember he won a silver medal in the Olympics in two thousand and eight. Yeah, Chris, it's twenty twenty four for God's sake, and he's still sixteen.
Years yeah, so yes, he wasn't young then either when he was at the Olympics, like, because of that shiny system, you stay there for a while. So he was what because he fought in his mid twenties at that point when he turned broke.
He fought in He fought in the twenty twelve Olympics also, so, but he's a smart fighter. He's a strong fighter. I think he's got a pretty good chin.
But I don't think stationary target though.
Kids and he But the thing is Chris, I think he trusts his chin, so he takes shots that you shouldn't take. Yeah, plus and plus again, he's a dude. He is six foot six, two hundred and eighty plus pounds. Sometimes it's not easy to get a big body like that out of the way, even when your mind just telling you to do it. But he better be mindful of that against Deontay Wilder, because I don't care how bad Deontay Wilder looked against Joseph Parker. He is one of the most pulverizing punchers in the history of the sport. That's the last thing to go. And if he catches you with one of those right hands, you're gonna of a problem.
So and Parker, Keith had an excellent game plan for that fight. Like every time he saw Deontay loading up, Parker ducked in, like would not give Deontay that stationary target hit.
That's what I worry about with Jaylee.
Jeong because I don't think he's gonna have that type of game plan. I think he's gonna look to land big shots, but he's not going to be spying that right hand and every time he sees it coming, going to duck into it and avoid it. I think he's gonna trust his chin, like you said, in situations like that, and that has the potentially get him into real trouble.
The other thing, Chris is, as it relates to Deontay Wilder, he looked to me when he fought Joseph Parker. Now, Parker is a big, strong guy and above average puncher, but not as big a puncher as Zong Jeong and some of the other punchers in the heavyweight division. He seemed reluctant to Now, no one likes to get hit. Of course, he seemed more reluctant than I had seen him in the past to get hit because you have to wonder what that violent knockout loss to Tyson Fury did to his psyche, because he had convinced himself that what happened in their second fight was some conspiracy of all conspiracies. Right, so in his mind he didn't lose that fight, right, right, I mean that Mark Brillan should have thrown in at all the things that he said inspired to make him lose that fight. He believes that, right. There is no getting around the fact that he got knocked out against Tyson Fury, no if sands or bunts. And when you have the rest of your life to live, and you know by the way that you knock people out that the same thing could happen to you, and now it's happened, how does that change the way that you approached the fight? There was no way to tell how that affected him against Robert Halaneus because the fight only lasted two minutes and fifty seven seconds or whatever. Right, So, but in that fight he looked reluctant to me to engage, so is.
He Helenius was the one engaging with him in that right? Heleni has decided to go in with the same game plan that Tyson did. He just got caught, couldn't get up for him.
Yeah, and who could blame him for doing that, right trot, because you're not going to stand there and wait for him to hit you. Because what happened, what eventually happen, is going to happen.
I kind of did that again Anthony Joshua and eventually got knocked out there too. So it's yeah, I think it's I think you're probably right that the result of that third fight with Fury still lingers within him. And look, you know, Malik Scott is his trainer, and Malik Scott's strength as a boxer was being a boxer.
Malik Scott was not a power puncher.
So when I'm watching Deontay Wilder fight Joseph Parker and used the entirety of the ring like he's some kind of like he's the heavyweight version of Sandra Martin, I don't know what I'm kind of looking at here. I don't think he can win fights that way. Keith like he he is a front foot fighter. Every time he has been successful, whether it's against the likes of Bermates de Verne or Charles Martin or any of the guys that he has he has beaten.
He has been on that front foot.
If he's on his back foot this entire fight, which is a chance he could be, because I think Zag's gonna come forward. I think he's gonna have a lot of problems landing the shot that could put Zang out.
Absolutely Chris, And it could wind up being a somewhat of a boring fight too, because you know, John's throw a lot of punches. Might be a little reluctant to engage.
Be such anticipation though, like no Fly when it finally does.
Yet, that's one of those where don't look at your phone or anything like that, because just when it's starting to get a little redundant and monotonous, someone's gonna catch someone and and someone's going because I do expect to fight to end by knockout one way or the other.
Yeah, it definitely is an excellent main event for that reason. It's gonna be bombs away for for both those guys. The last thing for you, just to get your take on you know where we are with Ryan Garcia at this moment.
The B sample came back.
Not surprisingly, it tested positive for austere and again the A sample and the b sample almost always come back the exact scene. You've seen Bill Haney out there calling for Ryan Garcia to be banned for life. I think that might be a bit of a stretch. But now the New York State Athletic Commission has a decision to make. You've covered this commission, Keith from right next door there in New Jersey for quite some time. What's your best guess at at this point about what Ryan is going.
To be facing.
My best guest, Chris, is that he will be suspended for a minimum of six months, maybe longer, and the result of the fight should be changed to a no contest, and I think it ultimately will be. It creates more drama for the rematch because now there's some reason to believe that his win was tainted because he was using whatever he's saying, and whatever excuses they're coming up with, the fact remains that he had this in his system, He had an unfair advantage over Devin Hainey. He came in three plus pounds overweight. So people will probably I think most reasonable people would give Devin Haney the benefit of the doubt going into the rematch. They're going to look at it a little differently than they would have if they had a rematch and Ryan Garcia's tests all came back clean.
Yeah, I think for a suspension to have any real credibility, it's got to be a year. And I'm not saying this as someone that dislikes Ryan Garcia. Quit the opposite. I think Ryan Garcia is great for boxing and has been great for boxing for quite some time. But six months isn't a suspension. I mean, think about it. If it's six months retroactive to the date of the fight, what are we talking about here. We're talking about you know, April to October is when he's allowed.
Toy be off six months anyway, So let's see.
That's that's what's plenished. It doesn't really carry any weight.
I don't believe it should turn like Pat English, the attorney for Devin Haney, saying disqualification.
I don't believe that.
I think it should be a no contest and let these guys run it back again. Maybe the fight's at one forty seven. Who cares if there are belts in the line. It was an electric fight because of all the knockdowns the first time around. The interest in this in the rematch is going to be tenfold heath like, not just because the first fight was really good, but because there's so much drama, like the the you know, we just saw the tagline for Catherall Taylor.
Hate runs deep.
I don't know what you come up with for Haney Garcia too, but it's something comparable because everybody hates each other. With those two two sides, the build up's gonna be great. Ticket sales will be ridiculous. It would probably be great in Vegas. It'll do a big number on pay per view, whatever it did on pay per view, three or four times that. I think in a rematch, Yeah, I think a year is fair if if look and again, I think you and I both agree. This stuff about like hair sample, like it doesn't really matter, like it none of it's really relevant at this point. This is Ryan Garcia's side saying they did a test his hair sample came back and proved that it was contaminated supplements, putting aside the fact that I don't even know if that's true. It doesn't matter, Like the test came back for what it was, and a fighter's responsible for what he puts in his or her system. It's as simple as that, so I think a year retroactive is probably fair and let these guys go at it, you know, in May or June of twenty and twenty five.
Right, And if that's the case, Chris, then Devin Haney, who still holds his WBC title, can go make his mandatory defense against Sando Martin, which won't be an easy fan.
There's a fight. There's a fight. There's an instant classic right there.
It's not going to be Corrals Castillo, obviously, but the but Sandor Martin gives people fits because of the way he fights. But that's the type of fight because he's not a big puncher. That's the type of opponent that Devin Haney needs coming off of this bruising fight that he had with Ryan Garcia to get his confidence.
Back, and I think he handles him pretty well, do you like? I mean, I get that Sander Martin looked great against Mikey Garcia might have won the fight against Taffimo, but Mikey Garcia had one foot out the door, and you know, to has a lot of problems dealing with those types of fighters. I don't think Devon's gonna have quite as many problems like it it's gonna be a stinker because Devin will just probably out jab him and out maneuver him. But I agree that's the right fight to fight that I think Devin would be a big favorite to win.
Yeah, and if he if he goes forward with that fight for the end of the year, and Ryan Garcia suspended for a year, like you said, by the next time, if Devin and he wins the fight, by the next time he's ready to fight Ryan Garcia's a suspension will have ended, and then they could fight in the sprint.
Yeah, no question, All right, Keith, good stuff, man. I will let you get back to slandering William Skull online and I appreciate your time.
As always, Man, we'll do it again.
It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it right.
That's it for this week's episode. My thanks to Keith Ideck for joining the show. As always, Subscribe, rate, review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you download podcast, and stay locked in on this feed because I will see you again later this week.
Dangers so much I go sleep
