Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. This is Bloomberg BusinessWeek with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck on Bloomberg Radio.

Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. This is Bloomberg BusinessWeek with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck on Bloomberg Radio.

Well.

Well.

Our next guest is a technology and healthcare futurist. Served in the US National Security Council, State Department, and Senate Form Relations Committee, and with the United Nations in Cambodia. Most recently, he or more recently, I should say, he has been exploring and explaining the world of genetic engineering. We are talking about Jamie Metzel. He's the author of Hacking Darwin Genetic Engineering in the Future of Humanity. For other books he has also written. He was a member of the World Health Organization Expert Advisory Committee on Human Genome Editing. We want to get to it because he is with us. He's Senior Fellow at the Atlanta Council, founder and chair of the nonprofit One Shared World. His new book out is called super Convergence, How the genetics, biotech and AI revolutions will transform our lives, world and work work World. Jamie is in New York City and the book is out Tuesday. Forgive me, Jamie, I'm kind of rushing to get to you because I want to talk to you.

Our next guest is a technology and healthcare futurist. Served in the US National Security Council, State Department, and Senate Form Relations Committee, and with the United Nations in Cambodia. Most recently, he or more recently, I should say, he has been exploring and explaining the world of genetic engineering. We are talking about Jamie Metzel. He's the author of Hacking Darwin Genetic Engineering in the Future of Humanity. For other books he has also written. He was a member of the World Health Organization Expert Advisory Committee on Human Genome Editing. We want to get to it because he is with us. He's Senior Fellow at the Atlanta Council, founder and chair of the nonprofit One Shared World. His new book out is called super Convergence, How the genetics, biotech and AI revolutions will transform our lives, world and work work World. Jamie is in New York City and the book is out Tuesday. Forgive me, Jamie, I'm kind of rushing to get to you because I want to talk to you.

How are you. I'm great, Carol, great to hear your voice.

How are you. I'm great, Carol, great to hear your voice.

We've been at this together for many years, so it's great to be together again.

We've been at this together for many years, so it's great to be together again.

Well, what do you think about that journey and what you are kind of focusing on at this point and really tackling some really big areas and kind of putting them together, and the importance of kind of thinking about them together, and I mean genetics, biotech and AI.

Well, what do you think about that journey and what you are kind of focusing on at this point and really tackling some really big areas and kind of putting them together, and the importance of kind of thinking about them together, and I mean genetics, biotech and AI.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So this book, in many ways, it's the culmination kind of my entire life, and I'm trying to ask the question is what do we do and how do we manage these two most fundamental transformations of our lives? And those two transformations are this is the moment, after three point eight billion years of life on Earth, that our one species has developed these two transformational superpowers, and that's we are creating novel intelligence and have developed the capacity to recast all of life, including our own.

So this book, in many ways, it's the culmination kind of my entire life, and I'm trying to ask the question is what do we do and how do we manage these two most fundamental transformations of our lives? And those two transformations are this is the moment, after three point eight billion years of life on Earth, that our one species has developed these two transformational superpowers, and that's we are creating novel intelligence and have developed the capacity to recast all of life, including our own.

And the one question.

And the one question.

That's going to determine whether our species thrives in the future or doesn't is whether we can use these new godlike superpowers wisely. And again, Carol, you mentioned my last book, Hacking Darwin, was all about the future of human genetic engineering, and then I was, as you and I have discussed, deeply involved in the issues of pandemic origins. I was a member of the World Health Organization Expert Committee on Human Genome Mediting after the first Crisper babies were born. And so I definitely am deeply involved in the science of what these intersecting AI genetics and biotechnology revolutions mean, and then the applications healthcare, agriculture, manufacturing, data.

That's going to determine whether our species thrives in the future or doesn't is whether we can use these new godlike superpowers wisely. And again, Carol, you mentioned my last book, Hacking Darwin, was all about the future of human genetic engineering, and then I was, as you and I have discussed, deeply involved in the issues of pandemic origins. I was a member of the World Health Organization Expert Committee on Human Genome Mediting after the first Crisper babies were born. And so I definitely am deeply involved in the science of what these intersecting AI genetics and biotechnology revolutions mean, and then the applications healthcare, agriculture, manufacturing, data.

Storage, and lots of other things. But then the question is, well, how do we do it?

Storage, and lots of other things. But then the question is, well, how do we do it?

And so one is we need to be very cognizant of the dangers, which are very real, and then we say, what's the path forward, how do we do this wisely? And what are the building blocks of getting to the place where we want to be, Because if we get this right, we can have much better healthcare, more abundant foods for everybody around the world, and all kinds of wonderful things. And we get it wrong, we can get sin bio pandemics, we can crash ecosystems, we can undermine our very humanity.

And so one is we need to be very cognizant of the dangers, which are very real, and then we say, what's the path forward, how do we do this wisely? And what are the building blocks of getting to the place where we want to be, Because if we get this right, we can have much better healthcare, more abundant foods for everybody around the world, and all kinds of wonderful things. And we get it wrong, we can get sin bio pandemics, we can crash ecosystems, we can undermine our very humanity.

And that's why I've written a book for everyone.

And that's why I've written a book for everyone.

I want people to take this book to the beach and be comfortable and having fun reading it on the beach. They go, that was a really easy read, but I actually learned a lot and it sparked a lot of meaningful conversations.

I want people to take this book to the beach and be comfortable and having fun reading it on the beach. They go, that was a really easy read, but I actually learned a lot and it sparked a lot of meaningful conversations.

I have to say that I have been watching though a video you did where you talked about the book. You're in San Jose, California. You're competing in an ultra marathon. It's raining, there's lots of mud. We're actually showing it for our viewers right now. You talk about your hands getting numb, you're sniffling because it's cold, it's raining.

I have to say that I have been watching though a video you did where you talked about the book. You're in San Jose, California. You're competing in an ultra marathon. It's raining, there's lots of mud. We're actually showing it for our viewers right now. You talk about your hands getting numb, you're sniffling because it's cold, it's raining.

Are you walking and running? Jamie, to clarify, here looks like.

Are you walking and running? Jamie, to clarify, here looks like.

It looks like I say, I am so honored that you are sharing this with your viewers. So, for those of you who don't do ultra marathons, ultra marathons are hard.

It looks like I say, I am so honored that you are sharing this with your viewers. So, for those of you who don't do ultra marathons, ultra marathons are hard.

Ultra marathon is a race longer than a marathon.

Ultra marathon is a race longer than a marathon.

The ones that I do are fifty kilometer thirty thirty two mile races, and I do mountain trail runs. And I was in San Jose speaking at sin Bio Beta, which is the big synthetic biology conference that my friend John Cumbers runs.

The ones that I do are fifty kilometer thirty thirty two mile races, and I do mountain trail runs. And I was in San Jose speaking at sin Bio Beta, which is the big synthetic biology conference that my friend John Cumbers runs.

And I thought, oh, this is going to be easy. Famous last words.

And I thought, oh, this is going to be easy. Famous last words.

I'm just going to go the day before the conference and I'll run this race San Jose.

I'm just going to go the day before the conference and I'll run this race San Jose.

The weather's perfect. How big could the hills be?

The weather's perfect. How big could the hills be?

So it turns out the hills were pretty big, and it turned out they had this uncharacteristic freezing like rainy, slushy storm. And it was like you, I'm so much older than you guys, but you know what a three hour tour means when you know this is going to be easy, like a three It was a three hour tour and so and then I knew that I had somebody had asked me to record a video about the book. And I was walking up this hill at mile like thirty and it was kind of this straight up you know, I'm what can I do to record? It's like, you're insane at those moments. I'm going to record a.

So it turns out the hills were pretty big, and it turned out they had this uncharacteristic freezing like rainy, slushy storm. And it was like you, I'm so much older than you guys, but you know what a three hour tour means when you know this is going to be easy, like a three It was a three hour tour and so and then I knew that I had somebody had asked me to record a video about the book. And I was walking up this hill at mile like thirty and it was kind of this straight up you know, I'm what can I do to record? It's like, you're insane at those moments. I'm going to record a.

Record a video about this book. That seems like a good idea.

Record a video about this book. That seems like a good idea.

So I didn't well, I was thinking about watching it, and I was like, I feel, you know, you know, when you're out in nature, you said times for me, my brain opens up. I think differently, maybe more clearly, about some of the big ideas and trends and innovations. Disruptions, whatever the heck you want to call them, that are coming at us big time. How do you cross nature with some of these dynamic trends that are coming us that will clearly test kind of natural evolutionary theory that is dominated for so long.

So I didn't well, I was thinking about watching it, and I was like, I feel, you know, you know, when you're out in nature, you said times for me, my brain opens up. I think differently, maybe more clearly, about some of the big ideas and trends and innovations. Disruptions, whatever the heck you want to call them, that are coming at us big time. How do you cross nature with some of these dynamic trends that are coming us that will clearly test kind of natural evolutionary theory that is dominated for so long.

This is why you're such a great journalist, Carroll, to make such a smooth transition as that one.

This is why you're such a great journalist, Carroll, to make such a smooth transition as that one.

And what I'll say is the things that we.

And what I'll say is the things that we.

Call nature aren't natural. If you go to Whole Foods and go to the fruits and vegetables section, you would be hard pressed to find a fruit or a vegetable that twenty thousand years ago existed in anything like its current form.

Call nature aren't natural. If you go to Whole Foods and go to the fruits and vegetables section, you would be hard pressed to find a fruit or a vegetable that twenty thousand years ago existed in anything like its current form.

It almost doesn't exist.

It almost doesn't exist.

Maybe there's one or two things if you like, when I was out hiking in San Jose, it seemed like nature because there were a lot of trees. But nay, if we mean by nature what it was like before humans changed everything, Like, no one went hiking just for fun because the saber toothed hiker will eat you if you do that. And so the thing that we call nature is just the world that our ancestors managed and manipulated, like you're your dog, that your dog didn't exist fifty thousand years ago, in this ing, in this format, none of them exactly.

Maybe there's one or two things if you like, when I was out hiking in San Jose, it seemed like nature because there were a lot of trees. But nay, if we mean by nature what it was like before humans changed everything, Like, no one went hiking just for fun because the saber toothed hiker will eat you if you do that. And so the thing that we call nature is just the world that our ancestors managed and manipulated, like you're your dog, that your dog didn't exist fifty thousand years ago, in this ing, in this format, none of them exactly.

And so what and even if.

And so what and even if.

You are the most indigenous farmer in the highlands of Peru, make it make growing keen waw from ancient varieties of seeds, you are a radical biotechnologist. Much more the difference between the precursors to our domesticated crops and our current non GMO corn and our current GMO corn. The difference between the precursors and corn is way more than the minuscule difference between current corn. And so the starting point for this has to be the choice that we are making as a species is not natural ursus unnatural. It's how do we interact with the living world that we have been managing and manipulating for thousands of years and do so in the smartest, most economical, safest, most sustainable way to achieve the things that we want to achieve.

You are the most indigenous farmer in the highlands of Peru, make it make growing keen waw from ancient varieties of seeds, you are a radical biotechnologist. Much more the difference between the precursors to our domesticated crops and our current non GMO corn and our current GMO corn. The difference between the precursors and corn is way more than the minuscule difference between current corn. And so the starting point for this has to be the choice that we are making as a species is not natural ursus unnatural. It's how do we interact with the living world that we have been managing and manipulating for thousands of years and do so in the smartest, most economical, safest, most sustainable way to achieve the things that we want to achieve.

And what are those things?

And what are those things?

Well, we don't want to die of terrible cancer. We want to have gene therapy. So somebody who's born with something like sickle cell disease rather than living a life of excruciating pain and then dying prematurely and live a normal life.

Well, we don't want to die of terrible cancer. We want to have gene therapy. So somebody who's born with something like sickle cell disease rather than living a life of excruciating pain and then dying prematurely and live a normal life.

We want to grow more.

We want to grow more.

Crops on less land to feed more people.

Crops on less land to feed more people.

So, Jamie, my question for you is, after doing the research and reporting for this book and your other books, how do you live your life differently? What do you eat that's different? What do you do that's different than you used to do now that you found all this through research?

So, Jamie, my question for you is, after doing the research and reporting for this book and your other books, how do you live your life differently? What do you eat that's different? What do you do that's different than you used to do now that you found all this through research?

Yeah, so you know, it's funny people ask me this a lot because I'm deeply involved in the world of, for example, the science of human life extension.

Yeah, so you know, it's funny people ask me this a lot because I'm deeply involved in the world of, for example, the science of human life extension.

And everyone says, oh, you must.

And everyone says, oh, you must.

Be taking the NAD plus boosters and med foremen, and you must be like doing like the thing where they cut open the old and young mice and sew them together.

Be taking the NAD plus boosters and med foremen, and you must be like doing like the thing where they cut open the old and young mice and sew them together.

You must be.

You must be.

Doing that with I don't know who, or your girlfriend or something, and I don't do any of that.

Doing that with I don't know who, or your girlfriend or something, and I don't do any of that.

What I do is a few things.

What I do is a few things.

One just in terms of my personal life. I exercise an hour a day and eat healthy and do all those blue zone things that everybody knows you're supposed to do and are hard to do. Certainly in my healthcare I try to get ahead of the curve because I write about the future of healthcare in the book, and where we're going is from our current world of healthcare based on population averages. You have a headache and you go to CVS and you pick up a tile and all to our new world of healthcare precision or personalized health care based on each person's individual biology.

One just in terms of my personal life. I exercise an hour a day and eat healthy and do all those blue zone things that everybody knows you're supposed to do and are hard to do. Certainly in my healthcare I try to get ahead of the curve because I write about the future of healthcare in the book, and where we're going is from our current world of healthcare based on population averages. You have a headache and you go to CVS and you pick up a tile and all to our new world of healthcare precision or personalized health care based on each person's individual biology.

Because you know a small.

Because you know a small.

Percentage of people who take a tile and I will have a terrible adverse reaction and could even die. And so better to know you're one of those people before you take the tile. And that's true for cancer therapies.

Percentage of people who take a tile and I will have a terrible adverse reaction and could even die. And so better to know you're one of those people before you take the tile. And that's true for cancer therapies.

And all of that.

And all of that.

So in that process, we're gaining a lot of information about systems biology, so the complexity of human biology.

So in that process, we're gaining a lot of information about systems biology, so the complexity of human biology.

Right.

Right.

And then that's the next shift in our healthcare, which is from precision to predictive and preventive, where with all of this data and the formula for all of this stuff is the more high quality data you have, the more computing power, stronger algorithms, the more we're going to be able to decipher actionable patterns. That's going to change healthcare and industry and agriculture and everything.

And then that's the next shift in our healthcare, which is from precision to predictive and preventive, where with all of this data and the formula for all of this stuff is the more high quality data you have, the more computing power, stronger algorithms, the more we're going to be able to decipher actionable patterns. That's going to change healthcare and industry and agriculture and everything.

Amen, Hey, listen, do not go anywhere. Jamie's going to stay with us. Jamie Metzil we're talking with about his new book Super Convergence, How the genetics, biotech and AI revolutions will transform our lives, work, and world, including a chapter on what possibly could go wrong. So we're going to get into that. That's coming up next. I want to get back to Jamie Metzil, Senior Fellow at the Atlanta Council, founder and chair of the nonprofit on Shared World. We are talking about his new book out on Tuesday, Super Convergence, How the genetics, biotech and AI revolutions will transform our lives, work, and world. He is still with us here in New York City. Hey, Jamie, one thing I wanted to ask you. The way the book starts, you have two quotes, but you say this is from Stuart Brand. We are as gods and might as well get good at it.

Amen, Hey, listen, do not go anywhere. Jamie's going to stay with us. Jamie Metzil we're talking with about his new book Super Convergence, How the genetics, biotech and AI revolutions will transform our lives, work, and world, including a chapter on what possibly could go wrong. So we're going to get into that. That's coming up next. I want to get back to Jamie Metzil, Senior Fellow at the Atlanta Council, founder and chair of the nonprofit on Shared World. We are talking about his new book out on Tuesday, Super Convergence, How the genetics, biotech and AI revolutions will transform our lives, work, and world. He is still with us here in New York City. Hey, Jamie, one thing I wanted to ask you. The way the book starts, you have two quotes, but you say this is from Stuart Brand. We are as gods and might as well get good at it.

Ye.

Ye.

What's the message there? It feels pretty powerful.

What's the message there? It feels pretty powerful.

For millennia, our ancestor is imagined these all powerful gods. They could create new stuff, they could recast life, they could grant people's wishes to live extra life. They could transform the world around them. We can now do all of those things. So we are in many ways not and always amaze. We are the all powerful gods that we have imagined in our past, and just like we've imagined those gods can build and destroy, we can build and destroy. And so now we have these superpowers and the question is are we going to use them to build to make a better future for us individually, for our companies, for our countries, and for our world, and do it in really practical ways, or are we just going to not do what needs to be to not create the right frameworks and governance and values and accountability and all the things that are required to make sure this story has as happy of a process, because there's no ending process as possible. If we don't do those things, we're really going to be in trouble.

For millennia, our ancestor is imagined these all powerful gods. They could create new stuff, they could recast life, they could grant people's wishes to live extra life. They could transform the world around them. We can now do all of those things. So we are in many ways not and always amaze. We are the all powerful gods that we have imagined in our past, and just like we've imagined those gods can build and destroy, we can build and destroy. And so now we have these superpowers and the question is are we going to use them to build to make a better future for us individually, for our companies, for our countries, and for our world, and do it in really practical ways, or are we just going to not do what needs to be to not create the right frameworks and governance and values and accountability and all the things that are required to make sure this story has as happy of a process, because there's no ending process as possible. If we don't do those things, we're really going to be in trouble.

And that's why I've written the book.

And that's why I've written the book.

That's why I'm so passionate about bringing everybody into this conversation, because it's in the early when you're doing anything, starting a company, that's when you need to say, hey, here's what we stand for, here are our values right, and then everything gets built on that. If we don't have a conversation of what we're trying to achieve, who we are, and what are the core values that are going to guide us, If we make this a conversation just about the technology itself, we're going to wind up in a very unfamiliar and most likely scary place.

That's why I'm so passionate about bringing everybody into this conversation, because it's in the early when you're doing anything, starting a company, that's when you need to say, hey, here's what we stand for, here are our values right, and then everything gets built on that. If we don't have a conversation of what we're trying to achieve, who we are, and what are the core values that are going to guide us, If we make this a conversation just about the technology itself, we're going to wind up in a very unfamiliar and most likely scary place.

I have to say, I'm already scared because I question the moral values and ethics that I feel like people have really lost. I want to ask you, genetics, biotech, AI, what worries you the most that we could get wrong? And there is a chapter about what could go wrong in general, and that's.

I have to say, I'm already scared because I question the moral values and ethics that I feel like people have really lost. I want to ask you, genetics, biotech, AI, what worries you the most that we could get wrong? And there is a chapter about what could go wrong in general, and that's.

What I'll say, in general and then specific. There is a reason why anxiety has been preserved by evolution. Anxiety is actually a really healthy emotion for us and for every animal, because we're afraid of things, and that is what inspires us to say, Hey, this terrible thing could happen. I could be eaten by some horrible animal. So I'm going to start planning so that that doesn't happen. And so these fears that we have, I mean, there's some people who are just such techno optimists.

What I'll say, in general and then specific. There is a reason why anxiety has been preserved by evolution. Anxiety is actually a really healthy emotion for us and for every animal, because we're afraid of things, and that is what inspires us to say, Hey, this terrible thing could happen. I could be eaten by some horrible animal. So I'm going to start planning so that that doesn't happen. And so these fears that we have, I mean, there's some people who are just such techno optimists.

They say, just do nothing in the future is going to be great. That is not true.

They say, just do nothing in the future is going to be great. That is not true.

Bad things could happen. We need to be honest now about what they are. A few of them that I highlight in the book. One, as I mentioned I was a member of the World Health Organization Expert Advisory Committee on Human Genome and doctor Tendros, the director of the who created that after the world's first crisper babies were born in China in twenty eighteen.

Bad things could happen. We need to be honest now about what they are. A few of them that I highlight in the book. One, as I mentioned I was a member of the World Health Organization Expert Advisory Committee on Human Genome and doctor Tendros, the director of the who created that after the world's first crisper babies were born in China in twenty eighteen.

That was a terrible violation.

That was a terrible violation.

If we just say, hey, let's just do whatever willy nilly human experimentation, we're going to wind up with more Nuremberg trials and those kinds of violations. We have the capacity to use gene drives, which is basically we weaponize We put a little molecular scissors almost into the sex cells that pass between animals, and we could use it to wipe out mallarial mosquitoes, and that would be great.

If we just say, hey, let's just do whatever willy nilly human experimentation, we're going to wind up with more Nuremberg trials and those kinds of violations. We have the capacity to use gene drives, which is basically we weaponize We put a little molecular scissors almost into the sex cells that pass between animals, and we could use it to wipe out mallarial mosquitoes, and that would be great.

We could save a million lives per year.

We could save a million lives per year.

But we don't know how these full ecosystems work, and if we're not careful, we could also crash whole ecosystems. Not because we're trying to do harm, because we're trying to do good. And as you and I have talked about this before, Carol, but I've been in the middle for the last almost four and a half years of this debate about COVID nineteen origins, and it's my view that the preponderance of the available evidence suggests a research related origin in Wuhan. And it's very likely that these Chinese scientists who weren't trying to create bioweapons, but were most likely trying to create a pan coronavirus vaccine and had an accident and didn't realize what had happened, and then things got worse and worse. So it's not just that we're going to have doctor evil doing bad stuff. It could be that well intentioned people, people who are trying to prevent terrible diseases, or to stop malarial mosquitos, or all sorts of things. And that's why, again and again, I keep going back to values.

But we don't know how these full ecosystems work, and if we're not careful, we could also crash whole ecosystems. Not because we're trying to do harm, because we're trying to do good. And as you and I have talked about this before, Carol, but I've been in the middle for the last almost four and a half years of this debate about COVID nineteen origins, and it's my view that the preponderance of the available evidence suggests a research related origin in Wuhan. And it's very likely that these Chinese scientists who weren't trying to create bioweapons, but were most likely trying to create a pan coronavirus vaccine and had an accident and didn't realize what had happened, and then things got worse and worse. So it's not just that we're going to have doctor evil doing bad stuff. It could be that well intentioned people, people who are trying to prevent terrible diseases, or to stop malarial mosquitos, or all sorts of things. And that's why, again and again, I keep going back to values.

Right, it's establishing the north star? Where are we heading?

Right, it's establishing the north star? Where are we heading?

That makes us think about TIM and I talk a lot about AI.

That makes us think about TIM and I talk a lot about AI.

Yeah, so, Jamie, my question for you is where could AI go wrong? And where what are the indications and now about the direction that it's moving in.

Yeah, so, Jamie, my question for you is where could AI go wrong? And where what are the indications and now about the direction that it's moving in.

Yeah, so this is it's such an important question. It's the same question as we speak today.

Yeah, so this is it's such an important question. It's the same question as we speak today.

Pope Francis has gone from Rome to Pulia for the G seven summit, and the reason he's gone is to participate in the conversation about about f and the future of AI. So AI, like all of these technologies can be used for good or for ill, and we're seeing both of those things right now. We're seeing AI being applied in healthcare settings and agriculture and all these other areas in companies, and it's helping solve real problems in very practical ways. And we're seeing deep fakes, manipulations, all kinds of problems with AI.

Pope Francis has gone from Rome to Pulia for the G seven summit, and the reason he's gone is to participate in the conversation about about f and the future of AI. So AI, like all of these technologies can be used for good or for ill, and we're seeing both of those things right now. We're seeing AI being applied in healthcare settings and agriculture and all these other areas in companies, and it's helping solve real problems in very practical ways. And we're seeing deep fakes, manipulations, all kinds of problems with AI.

And these are just the early days.

And these are just the early days.

And right now, when people think about AI, most people think, oh AI equals chat GPT, like I'm going to go to this website and then I'm gonna do AI. But if I were to ask you, guys, how did electricity influence your life today, It's an unanswerable question because electricity it's in your alarm clock, it's in your house, it's in your air conditioning, it's in the microphone, it's in our clothes, it's in our haircuts. It's just electricity is part of everything that we do. And these technologies are going to be part of everything that we do, part of our accounting systems, our interacting systems, how we interact with the world, how everything is made right. And that's why we need to think systemically and systematically about about these these technologies, and there are some of these people who say, oh, just no regulation, government, get out of the way.

And right now, when people think about AI, most people think, oh AI equals chat GPT, like I'm going to go to this website and then I'm gonna do AI. But if I were to ask you, guys, how did electricity influence your life today, It's an unanswerable question because electricity it's in your alarm clock, it's in your house, it's in your air conditioning, it's in the microphone, it's in our clothes, it's in our haircuts. It's just electricity is part of everything that we do. And these technologies are going to be part of everything that we do, part of our accounting systems, our interacting systems, how we interact with the world, how everything is made right. And that's why we need to think systemically and systematically about about these these technologies, and there are some of these people who say, oh, just no regulation, government, get out of the way.

That's the last thing we need.

That's the last thing we need.

We need wise governance and wise regulation.

We need wise governance and wise regulation.

Yeah, everything, Well, my dad say everything in moderation. I know everybody's dad says that or mom says that, but it's also everything. Like you gotta have some oversight of all this stuff. Jamie, good luck, so much fun to catch up with you again. Thank you so much for finding time for us once again here at Bloomberg. Jamie, take care you well.

Yeah, everything, Well, my dad say everything in moderation. I know everybody's dad says that or mom says that, but it's also everything. Like you gotta have some oversight of all this stuff. Jamie, good luck, so much fun to catch up with you again. Thank you so much for finding time for us once again here at Bloomberg. Jamie, take care you well.

Good luck also in the future ultra marathons.

Good luck also in the future ultra marathons.

I know he's pretty impressive. I love I highly recommend you check out that YouTube video because he really does go through so much of the book and like I said, it's raining, there's mud. Jimmie is, of course, senior fellow at the Atlanta Council, founder chair of the nonprofit One Shared World. Check out his new book super Convergence, How the genetics, biotech and AI revolutions will transform our lives work in World WI.

I know he's pretty impressive. I love I highly recommend you check out that YouTube video because he really does go through so much of the book and like I said, it's raining, there's mud. Jimmie is, of course, senior fellow at the Atlanta Council, founder chair of the nonprofit One Shared World. Check out his new book super Convergence, How the genetics, biotech and AI revolutions will transform our lives work in World WI.

This is Bloomberg Business Week inside from the reporters and editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus global business, finance and tech news as it happenss Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck on Bloomberg Radio.

This is Bloomberg Business Week inside from the reporters and editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus global business, finance and tech news as it happenss Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck on Bloomberg Radio.

It is Bloomberg Business Week. Well we talk about alts a lot, alternative investing. What about so called alternative MBAs? You want to say again, it's been.

It is Bloomberg Business Week. Well we talk about alts a lot, alternative investing. What about so called alternative MBAs? You want to say again, it's been.

One of those days.

One of those days.

Well.

Well.

As Bloomberg Business Week contributor Rob Mandelbaum wrote in a recent story for Bloomberg Business Week, development of alternative and online NBA programs are infod today as traditional business schools simultaneously grow more expensive and less popular. I kind of get this story in a big way.

As Bloomberg Business Week contributor Rob Mandelbaum wrote in a recent story for Bloomberg Business Week, development of alternative and online NBA programs are infod today as traditional business schools simultaneously grow more expensive and less popular. I kind of get this story in a big way.

One company offering such a program is the corporate training firm Ability, which has a comprehensive business skills course that stylized as a twelve week MBA. The program is built around simulations of real life business and management decision making. We've got with us. The CEO of Ability, Beyond, Bill Hart, is here in the Bloomberg Interactive Broker's studio along with Dimitro Cassanids, who is Bloomberg News Senior editor. The editor on the piece that I just read from. By the way, from Bloomberg BusinessWeek contributor Rob Mandelbaum, who wrote about this you and I do want to start with you because you got your MBA at Harvard Business School, Like, let's be honest, there's that's like the epitome of the NBA. It doesn't get any more like traditional MBA than Harvard Business School. But you're also quick to point out that your program isn't supposed to replace a traditional MBA.

One company offering such a program is the corporate training firm Ability, which has a comprehensive business skills course that stylized as a twelve week MBA. The program is built around simulations of real life business and management decision making. We've got with us. The CEO of Ability, Beyond, Bill Hart, is here in the Bloomberg Interactive Broker's studio along with Dimitro Cassanids, who is Bloomberg News Senior editor. The editor on the piece that I just read from. By the way, from Bloomberg BusinessWeek contributor Rob Mandelbaum, who wrote about this you and I do want to start with you because you got your MBA at Harvard Business School, Like, let's be honest, there's that's like the epitome of the NBA. It doesn't get any more like traditional MBA than Harvard Business School. But you're also quick to point out that your program isn't supposed to replace a traditional MBA.

Who's it for?

Who's it for?

Yeah, it is not supposed to replace Harvard Business School. In fact, I should I should say that I got the best ROI out of Harvard Business School. Has met my wife there, so I have fun memory.

Yeah, it is not supposed to replace Harvard Business School. In fact, I should I should say that I got the best ROI out of Harvard Business School. Has met my wife there, so I have fun memory.

He said that one is good.

He said that one is good.

Yes, I have fun memories of my two year But the truth is there are in the US right now one hundred and fifty thousand new MBAs every year and over a million new management positions. So close to ninety percent of new managers never set foot in a MBA in the Hollard Halls of Harvard or other NBA schools, and so there's this huge gap of people that have an undergraduate degree in history and biology but are moving into corporate jobs and need to understand what an income statement, what a balance she looks like as they become a leader of people. They need to understand how to manage others, they need to understand how to collaborate and cross functional projects. And so there's this need where ninety percent of the people moving into these leadership roles don't have the time, don't have the energy to again through your career perhaps or the money exactly. Demeter, I want to.

Yes, I have fun memories of my two year But the truth is there are in the US right now one hundred and fifty thousand new MBAs every year and over a million new management positions. So close to ninety percent of new managers never set foot in a MBA in the Hollard Halls of Harvard or other NBA schools, and so there's this huge gap of people that have an undergraduate degree in history and biology but are moving into corporate jobs and need to understand what an income statement, what a balance she looks like as they become a leader of people. They need to understand how to manage others, they need to understand how to collaborate and cross functional projects. And so there's this need where ninety percent of the people moving into these leadership roles don't have the time, don't have the energy to again through your career perhaps or the money exactly. Demeter, I want to.

Bring you into it that you follow you cover you, you know, report out and work with the team to like cover everything in anything when it comes to NBA programs around the world. When this came across your when you're talking to Rob, what is it that you wanted to know about in kind of what is going on and what do you want to ask our guests?

Bring you into it that you follow you cover you, you know, report out and work with the team to like cover everything in anything when it comes to NBA programs around the world. When this came across your when you're talking to Rob, what is it that you wanted to know about in kind of what is going on and what do you want to ask our guests?

Yeah, I mean the first question was what are you intending to do because you're calling it the twelve week MBA, But beyond that, it was really to get a better sense of what can you reasonably teach in that period of time and how can you do it? They're doing it, you know, largely online. You know, what are we going to see in the way of these programs, because I think there is It's not just the number of positions that jorn mentions, there's the interest and the desire to move into those positions because of the potential that they offer for earnings and more. And yet business schools are incredibly expensive, right, so you know what, what can you actually train for in the way that you're training and is that really going to make a difference when they land in that job? Is it actually going to serve them?

Yeah, I mean the first question was what are you intending to do because you're calling it the twelve week MBA, But beyond that, it was really to get a better sense of what can you reasonably teach in that period of time and how can you do it? They're doing it, you know, largely online. You know, what are we going to see in the way of these programs, because I think there is It's not just the number of positions that jorn mentions, there's the interest and the desire to move into those positions because of the potential that they offer for earnings and more. And yet business schools are incredibly expensive, right, so you know what, what can you actually train for in the way that you're training and is that really going to make a difference when they land in that job? Is it actually going to serve them?

Great question? And the truth is in twelve weeks, it's also not just twelve week it's part it's part time, and it's virtual. So it is a very short certificate program. It's not a full MBA, of course, it's it is not meant to be. The truth is though, that most people don't need all of the things that you learn in a two year program in business. This is not like law school or medical school, where you don't want a lawyer, you don't want a doctor operating on you without a full degree. It is very clear that there are a lot of business leaders that are extremely successful without ever having had an MBA. So unlike those other professional certificates, there isn't necessarily the need to learn two years worth of study. And so for many people who don't have the luxury of going back to an MBA, there's an alternative to.

Great question? And the truth is in twelve weeks, it's also not just twelve week it's part it's part time, and it's virtual. So it is a very short certificate program. It's not a full MBA, of course, it's it is not meant to be. The truth is though, that most people don't need all of the things that you learn in a two year program in business. This is not like law school or medical school, where you don't want a lawyer, you don't want a doctor operating on you without a full degree. It is very clear that there are a lot of business leaders that are extremely successful without ever having had an MBA. So unlike those other professional certificates, there isn't necessarily the need to learn two years worth of study. And so for many people who don't have the luxury of going back to an MBA, there's an alternative to.

Build a one demetor said that, are these people that aren't going to be CEO but are going to be other type of managers? Like who is this for?

Build a one demetor said that, are these people that aren't going to be CEO but are going to be other type of managers? Like who is this for?

It's for anyone that is moving into leadership roles in companies or is planning to move into leadership roles over the next five ten years.

It's for anyone that is moving into leadership roles in companies or is planning to move into leadership roles over the next five ten years.

Or is it like an executive you know program, like you know, I remember Columbia, like working at Columbia, and like that was a big part that they would bring people in from companies who did I can't remember how long it was a few weeks or a few I don't know, like a one summer, yeah, like every friday, you know, once a month kind of thing. So is it like that.

Or is it like an executive you know program, like you know, I remember Columbia, like working at Columbia, and like that was a big part that they would bring people in from companies who did I can't remember how long it was a few weeks or a few I don't know, like a one summer, yeah, like every friday, you know, once a month kind of thing. So is it like that.

It's like that, but it's not for executives, right, So the executive MBAs are very expensive. They're twenty thousand and thirty thousand dollars. Sometimes this program is two thousand dollars, So it's a it's the price of a conference that someone can go to. So it's meant for people that are not at the executive's level level, at the executive level yet, but that are thinking about maybe becoming a team manager or are starting to manage others starting to get into leadership roles where understanding and income statement, balance sheet is becoming more important.

It's like that, but it's not for executives, right, So the executive MBAs are very expensive. They're twenty thousand and thirty thousand dollars. Sometimes this program is two thousand dollars, So it's a it's the price of a conference that someone can go to. So it's meant for people that are not at the executive's level level, at the executive level yet, but that are thinking about maybe becoming a team manager or are starting to manage others starting to get into leadership roles where understanding and income statement, balance sheet is becoming more important.

Right.

Right.

I do want to know about the content of the courses because one thing that I found so interesting about Rob's piece Bjorn, is the gamification here and the idea that you're sort of competing with other folks and AI is kind of the backdrop here. Explain what the coursework is because it's it's not necessarily what you'd find in quote unquote traditional business school.

I do want to know about the content of the courses because one thing that I found so interesting about Rob's piece Bjorn, is the gamification here and the idea that you're sort of competing with other folks and AI is kind of the backdrop here. Explain what the coursework is because it's it's not necessarily what you'd find in quote unquote traditional business school.

Yeah, and I think that's the other disruption that I think is happening now. So in the in the twelve week NBA, there are no lectures, there are no power points, there is no e learning. In those twelve weeks, you're actually in a simulated environment where you become CEO of a company. You have to compete with others and virtual teams, and it's super fun, super engaging and allows you to see business from different vantage points. You know, from the vantage point CEO, vantage point of VP of sales operations, and learn by doing, learn by making mistakes and then having a facilitator who comes in and points out what mistakes were made. As the teams competed with each other.

Yeah, and I think that's the other disruption that I think is happening now. So in the in the twelve week NBA, there are no lectures, there are no power points, there is no e learning. In those twelve weeks, you're actually in a simulated environment where you become CEO of a company. You have to compete with others and virtual teams, and it's super fun, super engaging and allows you to see business from different vantage points. You know, from the vantage point CEO, vantage point of VP of sales operations, and learn by doing, learn by making mistakes and then having a facilitator who comes in and points out what mistakes were made. As the teams competed with each other.

Facilitator being another person or is this like another part of AI.

Facilitator being another person or is this like another part of AI.

No, there's actually real these These are not AI facilitators. It's actually real facilities. We actually have a lot of business school professors as well as retired executives that teach in the curricular.

No, there's actually real these These are not AI facilitators. It's actually real facilities. We actually have a lot of business school professors as well as retired executives that teach in the curricular.

But everything is all entirely online and remote. I mean, what do you are they missing something by not having that sort of in person human element.

But everything is all entirely online and remote. I mean, what do you are they missing something by not having that sort of in person human element.

I mean even.

I mean even.

Schools today that have had very successful online programs, they're trying to find a way to incorporate something where the people are coming together. There's something that comes from being live and in personal with either some of your classmates or your instructors. So what do you think about we.

Schools today that have had very successful online programs, they're trying to find a way to incorporate something where the people are coming together. There's something that comes from being live and in personal with either some of your classmates or your instructors. So what do you think about we.

Have a corporate culture that certainly safe to say our boss like, that's part of what we do. We run into one another from different departments. That is such a big part of what we do here.

Have a corporate culture that certainly safe to say our boss like, that's part of what we do. We run into one another from different departments. That is such a big part of what we do here.

You know, it's a fantastic question. And we actually started the twelve week MBA as an in person program, and then when the pandemic hit, we didn't have a choice of moving online, but was really interesting and fascinating. This fall, we're actually moving part of it back into the classroom. So we're going to have a capstone experience that people can fly into based in Austin, Texas. So it's going to be an Austin at least the first one. But we're going to actually slightly modify the curriculum from an all online curriculum to have at least one weekend where people get together and have that in person experience.

You know, it's a fantastic question. And we actually started the twelve week MBA as an in person program, and then when the pandemic hit, we didn't have a choice of moving online, but was really interesting and fascinating. This fall, we're actually moving part of it back into the classroom. So we're going to have a capstone experience that people can fly into based in Austin, Texas. So it's going to be an Austin at least the first one. But we're going to actually slightly modify the curriculum from an all online curriculum to have at least one weekend where people get together and have that in person experience.

And that was based on was it feedback, I mean again, a feeling that there's something that they're missing out on when they're not in person, and there's an aspect of this education that really does you need to connect with people?

And that was based on was it feedback, I mean again, a feeling that there's something that they're missing out on when they're not in person, and there's an aspect of this education that really does you need to connect with people?

Yeah, I think so much of education is social. It's a difference between knowledge transfer and education is actually that social environment. And there's some of it that you can recreate online and I think we've done a pretty good job creating some of these virtual simulations and competitions, but there's something that is so important about this human element when you're in person, when you're at the bar after the competition and you can debrief with your peer, and so we want to bring that back.

Yeah, I think so much of education is social. It's a difference between knowledge transfer and education is actually that social environment. And there's some of it that you can recreate online and I think we've done a pretty good job creating some of these virtual simulations and competitions, but there's something that is so important about this human element when you're in person, when you're at the bar after the competition and you can debrief with your peer, and so we want to bring that back.

Quick question, Biorn. We have about a minute left here, thirty seconds left. Are you seeing the AI part of this, the simulation part. Are you starting to see that being incorporated in this quote unquote traditional MBAs in business school some of it?

Quick question, Biorn. We have about a minute left here, thirty seconds left. Are you seeing the AI part of this, the simulation part. Are you starting to see that being incorporated in this quote unquote traditional MBAs in business school some of it?

So traditional schools are a little bit slower to adapt some of these new technologies. Universities teach AI, but they're actually not incorporating a lot of AI into their curriculum. And we have in our simulations AI characters now that you have to interact with that also give you feedback. It's all controlled also by the facilitator, so there's always a human there. But AI is part of this part of the educational experience.

So traditional schools are a little bit slower to adapt some of these new technologies. Universities teach AI, but they're actually not incorporating a lot of AI into their curriculum. And we have in our simulations AI characters now that you have to interact with that also give you feedback. It's all controlled also by the facilitator, so there's always a human there. But AI is part of this part of the educational experience.

Ten seconds. Will you accept anybody who applies or will you say, well, maybe this isn't a program for you.

Ten seconds. Will you accept anybody who applies or will you say, well, maybe this isn't a program for you.

We do have an application process and there are people that we say this is not for you. We want to make we want to make sure that when people come to us they get something out of the curriculum. But we're not Harvard Business School, so we don't have you know, we we don't have criteria like you know, you don't have to have, for example, even an undergraduate degree.

We do have an application process and there are people that we say this is not for you. We want to make we want to make sure that when people come to us they get something out of the curriculum. But we're not Harvard Business School, so we don't have you know, we we don't have criteria like you know, you don't have to have, for example, even an undergraduate degree.

We'll take the GMATS or take the gap.

We'll take the GMATS or take the gap.

Thanks to be Yard, Bill Hard, CEO of ABILITY and Dimitri cassaniis who is Bloomberg News Senior editor

Thanks to be Yard, Bill Hard, CEO of ABILITY and Dimitri cassaniis who is Bloomberg News Senior editor