You're listening to a podcast from News Talk sed Be follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio, Cry and Bridge.

You're listening to a podcast from News Talk sed Be follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio, Cry and Bridge.

Looks like you're not doing your boss any favor by going to work while you're unwell. Umbrella Well Being Reckons. Businesses are losing billions of dollars a year due to workers pushing through while they're physically or mentally unwell. Umbrella principal psychologist doctor Doggal Sutherland is with me Hi Dogle. How are you good evening, Ryan?

Looks like you're not doing your boss any favor by going to work while you're unwell. Umbrella Well Being Reckons. Businesses are losing billions of dollars a year due to workers pushing through while they're physically or mentally unwell. Umbrella principal psychologist doctor Doggal Sutherland is with me Hi Dogle. How are you good evening, Ryan?

I'm well, Thank you.

I'm well, Thank you.

Good to have you on the show. So you're calling this presentism as opposed to absenteeism, what is it?

Good to have you on the show. So you're calling this presentism as opposed to absenteeism, what is it?

Yeah, Look, absenteeism is where people are absent from the workplace because they're sick, easy to count. Noticeable. Presentism is when people are physically present in the workplace but they are not performing at their full level of productivity. And we would say that that's at least a third or more decline in productivity. So you're sitting at your desk, but you're really mentally kind of not fully there, so you're not able to work to your full capacity. And we think it's a very hidden cost for employers because it's very hard to count. But as you say that, you know, an estimate is that it's costing over forty billion dollars in lost productivity every year to New Zealand.

Yeah, Look, absenteeism is where people are absent from the workplace because they're sick, easy to count. Noticeable. Presentism is when people are physically present in the workplace but they are not performing at their full level of productivity. And we would say that that's at least a third or more decline in productivity. So you're sitting at your desk, but you're really mentally kind of not fully there, so you're not able to work to your full capacity. And we think it's a very hidden cost for employers because it's very hard to count. But as you say that, you know, an estimate is that it's costing over forty billion dollars in lost productivity every year to New Zealand.

Where's that estimate come from.

Where's that estimate come from.

Look, it's based on some averages, So people saying, look, thirty if we go on the idea that thirty three percent less productivity, and that that average is out at about two thousand dollars per worker in lost productivity per month. So this is people saying that I lose about six days per month, and then if you average that out across the entire population. So look, it's a big estimate. And we're wanting to spark a conversation about this because there's not a lot of good research around us. So it's a first attempt at trying to get some numbers on this particular phenomena. We know this phenomena occurs, there's lots of research internationally that shows it, and so we're trying to somehow put some figures on this.

Look, it's based on some averages, So people saying, look, thirty if we go on the idea that thirty three percent less productivity, and that that average is out at about two thousand dollars per worker in lost productivity per month. So this is people saying that I lose about six days per month, and then if you average that out across the entire population. So look, it's a big estimate. And we're wanting to spark a conversation about this because there's not a lot of good research around us. So it's a first attempt at trying to get some numbers on this particular phenomena. We know this phenomena occurs, there's lots of research internationally that shows it, and so we're trying to somehow put some figures on this.

Okay, fair enough, let's put the physical ailments to a side for a second, just to focus on the psychological Are you not better off being at work? I mean, even if you're not from and this is from the individual's perspective, not the companies. But are you not better off being at work if you're feeling down depressed? Maybe not one hundred percent? Are you not better off being around people rather than at home moping?

Okay, fair enough, let's put the physical ailments to a side for a second, just to focus on the psychological Are you not better off being at work? I mean, even if you're not from and this is from the individual's perspective, not the companies. But are you not better off being at work if you're feeling down depressed? Maybe not one hundred percent? Are you not better off being around people rather than at home moping?

There is certainly an argument, and we will sort of distinguished between different types of presenteeism. So there are types of presenteeism when yes, it's probably useful for you to be at work, But I think the key thing is acknowledging that that's actually going on. The big cost here is when it's hidden, when the manner you're the boss, the organization doesn't know it's happening, and the person is there pretending almost to work, and then the organization scratching it to here, going gee, why aren't we as productive as we usually are? We already know that New Zealand is one of the least productive countries in the OECD, and we scratch our heads, going, I wonder why that is? Because we work longer hours in many other countries in the OE c D. And maybe this is part of it that actually we're working longer but not doing a heck of a lot.

There is certainly an argument, and we will sort of distinguished between different types of presenteeism. So there are types of presenteeism when yes, it's probably useful for you to be at work, But I think the key thing is acknowledging that that's actually going on. The big cost here is when it's hidden, when the manner you're the boss, the organization doesn't know it's happening, and the person is there pretending almost to work, and then the organization scratching it to here, going gee, why aren't we as productive as we usually are? We already know that New Zealand is one of the least productive countries in the OECD, and we scratch our heads, going, I wonder why that is? Because we work longer hours in many other countries in the OE c D. And maybe this is part of it that actually we're working longer but not doing a heck of a lot.

Maybe some what's the I guess what's the alternative for the for the manager or the business owner, you know, having that person not be at work, which would which would be even less productive. Well, you know, well how many days I mean six days you mentioned six days per month. That's that's that's a lot of time off.

Maybe some what's the I guess what's the alternative for the for the manager or the business owner, you know, having that person not be at work, which would which would be even less productive. Well, you know, well how many days I mean six days you mentioned six days per month. That's that's that's a lot of time off.

So it's about how we structure that work. I heard somebody today say, hey, I do this all the time because I'm the only person in my job or in my organization that can do my particular job, so I have to work well. That smacks to me of a job that isn't well designed because there's no redundancy, there's no backup in that job. So you're relying on one single person. Now that person is there and you think, oh, we must be doing well. Actually they could be functioning at thirty three percent less or even worse in their productivity. So organizations and businesses need to look at we're kind of fooling ourselves. We think that because somebody is physically present in the workplace, they must be working. And I think that's why we're seeing this as a hidden cost, because we just look at the fact that somebody is sitting there or standing there in their job, and we think therefore they must be producing and we think it's possibly cheaper if you're actually having some built in redundancies into your workplace.

So it's about how we structure that work. I heard somebody today say, hey, I do this all the time because I'm the only person in my job or in my organization that can do my particular job, so I have to work well. That smacks to me of a job that isn't well designed because there's no redundancy, there's no backup in that job. So you're relying on one single person. Now that person is there and you think, oh, we must be doing well. Actually they could be functioning at thirty three percent less or even worse in their productivity. So organizations and businesses need to look at we're kind of fooling ourselves. We think that because somebody is physically present in the workplace, they must be working. And I think that's why we're seeing this as a hidden cost, because we just look at the fact that somebody is sitting there or standing there in their job, and we think therefore they must be producing and we think it's possibly cheaper if you're actually having some built in redundancies into your workplace.

Interesting, Doctor Dougal Sutherland, Umbrella Principal Psychologists really appreciate your time for

Interesting, Doctor Dougal Sutherland, Umbrella Principal Psychologists really appreciate your time for

More from news talks that'd be listen live or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio

More from news talks that'd be listen live or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio