Behind the BastardsPart One: How Tainted Human Blood Became A Major U.S. Export
Robert and Ben Bowlin sit-down to talk about controversial blood plasma donation program in the Arkansas Prison system under Governor Clinton that killed more than 2 9/11s worth of Canadians.
Also media.
Oh my god, welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast where me and my guests for this week, the great Ben Bolan, are about to get targeted and murdered by the Clinton crime family. Ben, how are you doing today? Finally, finally, Yes, we've been we've lived in the dream dream.
Yes, here we go. Yeah, it's great to uh, it's great to be back. It's great to hang out with you. I was thinking of you and the team recently because I don't know whether you were cold, Robert, but lo these many years ago, when you were just beginning a podcast called Behind the Bastards, you graced us with an appearance a cameo dropped a hot sixteen on a show we do called Ridiculous History. Yes, do you remember that?
I do remember that? Yes, about the governor of or the founding the found one of the founders of Oregon.
If I'm not mistaken, you're right, Yes, how Oregon originated as a supremacist. Yeah.
Yeah, well today we're not talking about that, although we are talking about something where racism is involved. We're talking about I wasn't entirely joking about the Clintons. They are they are intricately involved in this story, or at least Bill is. But Ben, what do you know about the blood industry? Do you mean, like Ben Bowley, host of stuff they don't want you to know, and ridiculous history and a bunch of other stuff you mentioned one of them, Yes, like as.
A fan or just the industry overall?
Are you're so? You are a fan of blood? You're a big blood guy.
Yeah, that's what people say about Yeah.
Yeah, I mean who doesn't. I enjoy having roughly five leaders of blood in my body.
That's what everybody says about you.
Every every time I'm in or adjacent to a shooting, I think, boy, it's great having all of my blood still inside of me.
Yeah. I also love you know like any other any other damn peer. I am a huge supporter of blood donations, huge supporter.
Yes, uh. And that's what we're kind of talking about today, because there's some there's some problem donating blood. There's this great story that's going around because the fellow just died of this, this lovely elderly Australian man who found out that he had a rare blood factor that was crucial in making a medicine that millions of babies needed to live, so he just donated blood for like decades. Yeah, saving like two and a half million babies. That's great. Donating blood. Great blood as a commodity is what we're talking about here, and there's some deeply problematic aspects of it. And I wanted to start by saying, where do you think blood lies on the list of US exports by value?
Ooh, by value, not by liquid weight?
Okay, our blood and blood products. How much chunk of the US economy? Do you think that would be clever?
Clever question, Robert, because that would factor in things like plasma, right, yes, of course, yes, okay, yes, so with that I would gosh, it's a difficult question. It's a difficult question. I don't know the answer.
It is the ninth largest export for the entire United States. Holy shit, Yes, it beats. It beats like coal. Blood is a massive industry in the United States. It is, like again, it's one of our largest exports. Blood products make up one point eight percent of all US exports, which is up about half a percent from where it was ten years ago. And blood exports are valued at about thirty seven billion dollars. Like it's it's it's much larger. I did not realize when I started how big A like, that's a significant piece of the economy.
That's top ten.
Yes, yes, yes. And here's the thing that's like shocking when you just like I never would have thought of if I had been asked to, like guess the ten largest exports, blood wouldn't have been on my list. But here's the thing. The United States provides seventy percent of the blood plasma used worldwide to make medicine. That means, yes, yes, seventy percent of all blood plasma used on the planet in medicine comes from here. We are the largest exporter of blood products on the planet, and no one else comes very close.
Go USA to an extent.
Yes, And this is one of those things where we're talking about how messed up a lot of this industry is. It's not like some messed up industries where it's like, well, maybe we don't all need this product that the US puts out, or maybe there's alternative to this product that has harmful consequences. Everyone. Really, we do really need a lot of blood and blood products. It's very important for medicine, a crucial part of keeping people alive. So you can't deny. It's not like there's no argument to be made that we don't need to be producing all of this blood. Somebody fucking has to the problem is that whenever you've got an industry this big, you're going to find people try to find ways to maximize their profits and minimize their costs. And when you're talking about blood, that's going to lead you to do some fucked up shit that has some hideous consequences, right, yes, And that's that's the story that we're telling today. This week's episode is going to explain why and how a huge chunk of the global blood economy came to rely, specifically on a bunch of prison inmates in Arkansas, watched over by a handful of Clinton associates who saw their job as basically a bribe for political loyalty, and how this ultimately killed multiple nine elephns worth of Kenans, English people, and other folks around the planet. This is a dark story, and it's all set in the Arkansas prison system, and it all starts with this immutable fact, which is that human beings die without blood. The average adult has about four to five leaders of whole blood in their body at any point in time, and while we've always known that like you need blood, medical science has tended to focus throughout most of history on like maybe people have too much blood, maybe they have bad blood, and you got to like add in good blood to replaced losses. It was a messy process of figuring out like how blood works. And the first blood transfusion as far as we know, was attempted in sixteen twenty eight by an English physician. And I say attempted because it did not work. And I don't think that's a like it's it was a messy process, you know, trying to figure out how to do this, and they weren't always using human blood, right, because if you're like an early in this period, it might not make the logical thing, wouldn't be that like, well, obviously a lamb's blood and a human's blood are fundamentally different and we shouldn't be putting lambs blood into people. You might not make that jump, right, It's just it all just looks like blood to me, you know, just like if you put like blood from somebody in somebody who cannot take a donation from them, if you're dealing with sixteen, you don't know about blood types, how would you, How would that possibly be come to you?
Yeah, you should already get bonus points for recognizing the blood exist.
Right. If you're aware that the problem is not too much blood, you're doing very well in the sixteen hundreds. You're a great doctor in the sixteen hundreds. If your immediate jump isn't just like, well, let's cut them and drain a bunch of that shit out. This guy with a sword wound probably has too much blood left at him.
Yeah, that's the problem. It's like, not only do you have too much blood, but your humors are off dog and you know what I mean. That's like the.
Balance is wrong. Yeah, you have to think about it. Like if we took a bunch of computers back to like nine hundred BC, and we showed them how to use the computers but didn't explain anything about like how they worked. People would probably be able to keep some of those things going for a while, but their theories about why different stuff worked would be wild.
Right, Like we have to we have to sacrifice a certain amount of people.
Yes, yes, wait, the computer's demand blood.
Sometimes if the computer doesn't work, it's because there's too much Blood's.
Yes, there would be a whole religion centered around getting like Microsoft Outlook to work, and honestly, they might, they might do a better job than we do because Microsoft Outlook never works. Well, I mean, maybe human sacrifice is the answer.
Pit Yeah, yeah, maybe we should look out for the Outlook religion.
Mmmm, you know what I'm gonna get on that one? Uh, I'm gonna need I've been meaning they have like a sacrificial knife made for me, So this this could in well for everybody.
You don't You don't have that, Huh.
I have a sacrificial knife, but it's not nice enough to fix Microsoft Outlook, Sophie.
Or do you just have a knife that has occasionally been used for sacrifice?
Well, I mean, yeah, actually this one right.
Folks, Folks, Robert just did pull it up and why you know it is to his right?
Keep it near me. You never know, you know my motto a bs maybe always be sacrificing. You never you never know when which god you know, Babylonian deities. There's all sorts of gods out there that need blood.
You know.
When I when I when I'm more recovered from surgery and I'm back to filming, I gotta show everyone that knife you got me as a surgery present.
Yeah. Yeah, it's a nice one. Yeah Ford bontempsky booie, it's a really nice nice yeah.
Yeah. Wow.
Yeah.
The kiwi's in the audience will be impressed. So we didn't get blood transfusion right the first time, not for a bit, not for a bit. But by sixteen fifty five, a physician named Richard Lower had carried out the first successful blood transfusion, not in humans but on dogs. He is one of these like rare, much better than that, where he's like, maybe we should just start by trying to replace people's blood. I'm gonna work with ducks. See if I can get that down.
You know.
And two years later, a French physician and Richard Lower separately carried out successful blood transfusions from lambs to human beings. And I know, I just mentioned that that like isn't a great idea, and it's not, but it does sort of work sometimes, and it's the kind of thing you will occasionally hear. You know, you can use coconut water for blood transfusions because it's like sterile and it's the electrolyte content. It's one of those things if you look up like Snopes will say, no, this isn't true. I found a scientific study where they did this. They used it for an emergency transfusion. What's going on here? When when using lambs or coconuts does work, It's not because again, these are good replacements for blood. It's because sometimes when people lose enough blood, the biggest thing is getting enough like mass of something that's close enough in there so that their body keeps working. There are like if you use coconut water for transfusions because of like I think the amount of potassite is one problem, there are a horrible additional health conflicts it can cause. And the same is true of lambs blood. But if someone is like going to immediately die because they don't have enough blood, sometimes this has been done in order to save them, right, But it's not a good idea if there's other options. And in fact, once they started using lamb's blood, it became very quickly clear that like people also die because of the consequences of shooting them full of lamb's blood.
Well, it's also like you know, a modern comparison, Robert might be uh, the idea of heart transplants right with non human organs, right, not right, not to get too far ahead, but like that's that's that's uh, that's a situation where a current human technology can sort of band aid you. You might make it, you know, a year or so. It's not a it's not an actual facts human heart. Just like it reminds me of and I don't I don't know enough to speak off expertise here, but it reminds me of like that old trick with uh, with elderly cars, I'll call them vintage cars, where if the radiator is fucking up, you can put you can put a couple things in to just keep the radiator going until you get to the gas station. So maybe the lambs blood thing is like that.
It is a little and it's it's also this thing in like emergency medicine, where like there's certain things you're never supposed to do, like use an AED on an infant that also like people do because in the instance in which you would be doing it, the infant is dead, so you can't make it worse. Right, And like when we're talking about like where the origin of this of the coconut water thing is, it was at least one of the stories you'll here is that it was like during like World War two, and like they had they didn't have enough blood, and they just kind of tried something. And so like occasionally stuff that's not blood or not human blood can be used in a way that we'll deal with the immediate problem, but again always causes a bunch of additional problems because it's not supposed to be in there, right.
Right, right, Quick question though, quick question, Yeah, what Robert, if you're imagining it and Sophie as well, this World War two doctor who stumbled upon coconut water bandating blood or the circular, if that's.
How it happened, it is a little unclear, but yeah.
If that is how it happened, Yeah, what do you imagine, Like if their hand is going over a table with all sorts of other shit on it, what else did they look at first?
What do you think, Yeah, given the state of things at the time, straight liquor, what if we just put some jim bean in there? Well, that saved their lives.
And they're like, no, we're saving the No, we're saving the liquor for the guys who aren't bleeding out.
Yeah, we need all of that jim bean. We are fighting, We are island topping fighting the Empire of Japan. Nobody wants to sleep sober at night. Give him some coconut water or some shit. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. So. The first human to human blood transfusion occurs in Philadelphia seventeen ninety five, although the doctor who does it doesn't publish, and so the first successful transfusion is like generally listed as eighteen eighteen. It was by a British doctor treating a postpartum hemorrhage, and the science kind of develops from there. One of the things that becomes clear is that in a lot of instances when people need a transfusion, they don't need whole blood. Right Initially, they're starting out with whole blood, and people find out over decades and stuff that actually you can take different elements of blood and kind of add in a substitute, and exaline is usually used and do infusions of that for certain problems. Milk is actually one of the infusion substitutes. But this is again horrible for people. Don't shoot milk. It to people, milk does not belong in your blood sounds like big day to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sure the fucking dairy companies were like fighting for fighting like hell to have that be the case. So it's what for, it's what's in your blood there it is. Yeah. So over the next decades we figure out shit like blood types and we start messing around a lot with plasma, which is a component of blood that can used to make a whole bunch of different medications that will save your life. One of the best known uses of blood plasma is the manufacture of clotting agents in order to save and improve the lives of hemophiliacs. These are people who like, if they start bleeding, they just kind of keep bleeding. Their blood doesn't have the thing that is like all right, we've bled enough time to scab, you know, no breaks all gas, no breaks with the bleeding. And the first of these medications hits in like the nineteen sixties, and they more than double the life expectancy of hemophiliacs. As far as like single medical interventions go, this is like one of the big ones in terms of stopping like improving quality of life and length of life. Obviously, I'm not an MD or a scientist, but here's how An article in the William and Mary Business Law Review by Sophia Chase describes the process of making this life saving medication using plasma. After blood is collected, it is spun off through plasma pheresis, and its component parts are used for different purposes. The plast of thousands of donors is pulled together to create factor concentrates that form a blood product known as factor eight used to medicate hemophiliacs. Depending on the severity of the disease, ahemophiliac might need to use factor eight seven times or several times a week. This means essentially that people who are already ill with a life threatening disease and a compromised immune system have no alternative but to inject themselves with plasma hundreds of times a year. There's a degree to which this is a little like a diabetic who needs insulin, right. This is a medication that you need constantly, right, in order to not die. That's it. You know, the fact that this is available is great, but without blood transfusions and all of the medicines. You know, it's one of those things where like, because we developed this, there's a shitload of people you know who are alive today, whether it's because they bled out, because they were a soldier who got shot, or like a random person who was in like a car accident, got shot, or whether there's somebody with myphelia or one of a number of diseases and disorder, or one of their parents. You know, people who are alive because of this branch of science. Right, It's incredibly important stuff that we figured out. Largely the problem is that while I don't think a single doctor would argue that access to blood and blood products is a cornerstone of modern medicine, there is never enough of the shit. Absolutely never, at no point have we ever had a sufficient supply of blood and blood products. Yeah, and capitalism being what it is, the market has responded by making blood and blood products wildly valuable. In nineteen ninety eight, a barrel of crude oil was worth about thirteen dollars. A similar quantity of human blood was worth twenty thousand dollars. But that's whole blood. If you took that drawn blood, that as whole blood is worth about twenty grand for a barrel, and separated it into plasma and the other different blood products that are used in medicine, you could get more like sixty seven thousand dollars in nineteen ninety eight dollars off of that barrel.
Oh like if you if you steal a Honda Civic, you make money.
Sully exactly exactly. But you know Ben that that gets into our very successful business, uh taking catalytic converters, which, by the way, folks, if you need rare earth minerals, Ben and I are selling them whole fail. You just get a sack of cats delivered to your door. You know which is.
The new up and coming We call it kiddo currency. It is Evans and Bowlin's. That's right, Sophie Raye Production. We're limited liability companies, so don't try to come at us. Don't even try.
Once the dollar crashes and once crypto crashes, the only currency is going to be catalytic converters. You'll be walking around with a wallet full of them. And you know what, we're all going to get very strong because they are not light.
They are not light. You should this is going to be great for our lats.
You need to start doing the wholes thing and carry like a baby cow up a mountain now or a pin or whatever it was in that book, so that you can be strong enough to bring grocery money with you.
You know what's amazing about this is somebody one of us is listening right now and is doing the fireman carry down the goat, and they're like, I'm fucking ahead, I'm.
Ready, I'm ready, And several other people are listening on their earbuds as they saw someone's cat from the bottom of a prians.
Yeah.
So, anyway, I bring that up just to say that, like, there's a lot of money in this, and wherever there's a lot of money in the raw amount of blood, there will be an incentive for people to do one ethical things to get that blood because there's never just enough donations. Now, there's some reasons for that, some of which is the problem of the different organizations responsible for drawing blood. We could talk about the fact that queer people are still generally forbidden in many cases from donating blood because of the AID scare or the AIDS epidemic. We could talk you know, there's a number of like critiques. But even if you were to solve for those problems, there's still never going to be enough of this stuff. I don't know how we fix it until we can start like just growing, you know, functional blood in a lab, which is a thing people are trying to figure out. But from the beginning, the main problem with blood for transfusions in medicine has been that you can only really get it. I know, there's those crabs that we can use for some things, but as general rule, you only get it from people, and people are very attached to their blood and they're not always able to donate. There's a cost. And it's not that bad, right donating. If you've donated, I've donated, I'm sure you have. It's not like horrible, but like it's not nothing donating like it hasn't you were aware that you gave up some of your very important blood afterwards, Yeah.
The orange juice and the crackers don't quite get you back to a hype or set. I think it was something like pre pandemic, I want to say. Still a very small amount of people in the US donato.
Yes, and it's it's great to donate, But there's also another problem with that has nothing to do with this, which is that people the kind of people who you need to donate blood have blood born illnesses sometimes and often they're aware of it, but often they aren't, and blood born illnesses travel extremely easily through donated blood products. Remember what I said. When you are making factor ate to give to HEEMOPHILIAX, you were taking thousands of people's blood plasma and mixing it together.
Group project.
It's a group project. And if say there's I'm throwing the number out of my ass here, get we'll get more exact. But say there's twenty thousand different people's plasma comes into making a match a factor eight. If one of those people has a blood born illness, that whole batch can get tainted. It just takes one. That doesn't mean everyone who gets you know, medicated from it, but it means that anyone could potentially right, It's kind of the same with like fentanyl. You've got like a shitload of like you know, whatever powdered drug and a little bit of fentanyl gets in there. Everyone who does that drug might not get enough for it to matter, but someone could get a hot dose and then they're dead.
Right.
That's kind of how tainted blood works. And so this is a problem and part because again there's not enough blood. So if one person gets through because they weren't screened properly, you can ruin a bunch of that incredibly precious blood. And it was an even bigger problem back before, where our methods of testing for shit like hepatitis were as good as they are, because you didn't know what the fuck was getting into the blood supply, right, and so the odds of recipients getting sick from infected blood in the past was a lot higher. And the other issue here is that whole blood donations, if those are tainted, are still less likely to get you sick than blood product donations. So plasma that is tainted is likelier to get you sick than whole blood that's tainted. That's the way it works.
Yeah, okay, so it's like maybe a concentration of those vectors something like that. Yeah. The further I say this, the dumber elseund.
Yeah, I don't know why, but this is what this is what the medical paperwork says, is that blood products that you, when those are used on you, it is if they're tainted, they're likely to spread disease than whole blood.
And this exists in a profit seeking environment.
And this exists in a profit where there's a fuck of billions on the table. Now you're probably aware of how HIV would really cause some problems for the blood donation industry, right because first off, they didn't initially know it was a thing, so no one was checking for this stuff during the early days when it was spreading. And in that initial outbreak a bunch of hemophiliacs caught HIV through their transfusions and got sick and died. But before and during HIV those it was still never the most common illness read through blood donations. The most common illness is spread through blood and blood you know product donations are hepatitis A, B, and C. And we have been aware that hepatitis was a danger for this kind of stuff for a long time, but hepatitis C we couldn't detect it until nineteen ninety eight, and we couldn't detect people, and we couldn't detect it in blood products until nineteen ninety two. So like we've only very recently been able to actually like monitor people's blood to see if they had it, and even more recently than that be able to check blood products to see if they were clean from it. So what you got if we're talking about like the sixties, the seventies, the eighties, is a supply of something crucial that is inherently limited. And you know, part of the issue here is that when we're talking about the international blood trade, if you've got a country with endemic hepatitis right of some sort, they're going to need to bring in blood from other countries because their ability to get enough clean blood on their own before you can test for all of this stuff, property is going to be effectively nil, and they're going to need, as a general rule, are blood right. And because people don't like giving blood, you're going to have to pay donors, and because corporations like to maximize profits, they want to pay as little as possible. And I think we're starting to see where the problems come in here right now. The first wave of blood products hits the United States in the sixties, an oversight and regulation of the blood industry is basically non existent. At this point. Many, if not most, paid donors are IVY drug users, the homeless, and prisoners, all groups of people with a much higher rate of blood born illnesses than the general population or the volunteer donor population. Because the need is inelastic, different states start experimenting with blood shield laws, which exempt blood suppliers from what is called strict liability. As Sofia Chase explains. This meant that, despite providing an incredibly risky product, the business did not need to worry about the possibility of many expensive lawsuits. The large donor population, the lack supervision, and the diminished threat of litigation resulted in the United States becoming the premier producer of blood and plasma products. So we become the largest world producer blood and plasma in part because we're like, hey, if somebody gets sick because you didn't do your due diligence to make sure this stuff's safe, that ain't on you. We need the blood this badly, get it.
However, you know, yeah, like our uh, like our ongoing quite successful bag of catalytic converters business exactly exact limited liability, limited.
Liability because you yeah, exactly. You know, why would we be liable for what happens to people's cars. They're not our cars. Speaking of cars, yeah, you know what you should buy is if a car is advertised next that otherwise whatever else and we're back.
So.
In the late nineteen sixties, a researcher named Richard Titmus concluded that paying donors made people likelier to lie about their medical history. Right from the beginning. Because there's not enough volunteers. You are paying for most of this stuff, and research shows that people will pretend they don't have the risk factors or just lie about outright having a blood born illness because they're desperate for money, right, because people need money to live. He wrote that ultimately, quote this paid donations results in situations in which proportionally more and more blood is supplied by the poor, the unskilled, the unemployed, and other low income groups and categories of exploited human populations of high blood yielders. Redistribution of blood and blood products from the poor to the rich appears to be one of the dominant effects of the American blood banking systems. So not only is this our ninth largest export tens of billions of dollars, it is an industry where the blood comes from poor people and an overwhelming amount of it goes those two people who are more affluent, because obviously they're able to pay for better medical care. We are mining. This is a vampiric system where the poor are having their blood taken and given often to people who are more affluent to them. Right, that's a big part of the blood industry, especially in this period. And another big part of it is that because those exploited people desperately need the money, they may not tell you if they just shot up heroin, right, you know.
Or if someone had previously donated right one institution.
Right, yes, yes, and there's a lot of in these companies. We'll just destroy some records or whatever right now, following the advice that tit Mus gave because he's again like, this is a really deeply problematic system and maybe we shouldn't be paying for blood donations because it inherently causes problems. If this advice had been followed, it would have destroyed the blood plasma industry in particular. So they just.
Ignored money industry, right, the.
Blood money, Yes, yes, so they don't. They just ignore what this guy says, and in fact, they do worse to ignore him. They continue to explore more and more exploited segments of the populace to buy blood from. Of course, homeless people, street level sex workers, people who are using IV drugs, those are all. Those are all people who are desperate for cash and will do anything to get it. But you know what group of people are hardest up be incarcerated?
Ah, the people who are loophole enslaved in this country.
Yes, yes, yes, And you know there are several things, including the thirteenth Amendment, as you stated, that make incarcerated people the ideal source of raw blood for America's blood merchants. The US has by this point designated blood a vital resource, which means the government has streamlined regulations to ensure a sufficient supply. This meant that if you set up a plasma donation center a collection point in a prison, there is no mandated oversight.
Right.
The FDA is basically not involving themselves, right, at least not initially, which means that in as long as this stays a scarce product, drug companies are allowed to buy their blood from quote unlicensed, uninspected vendors. In other words, the drug companies who are buy because it's not the drug companies making these collection points, it's other companies. And because this is so scarce, if you're buying blood, you don't have to like say, and I got it from these people who have a license to get blood and proving that they follow all these You can just buy it from whomever guy comes to your door with a sack of blood. You can just purchase that.
The days of stray blood are oom. That's right. Yeah, that was the that's what we're aspiring towards. Yeah, I hate that we have to we have to bring this up. Another thing going into this. If we are counting something, we being human civilization as a vital resource such that we're going to cut some.
Corners or to get enough of it, sure, yeah.
Dude, diligence, then we're also going to oh, we already did it. We already cut the corners on liability or responsibility. I don't know, man, I just Robert, you know, I'm a fan of the show. I don't want to spoil it, but it doesn't sound like this ends well. I thought maybe this would be the one happy episode.
Yeah, I mean, I will say the system doesn't work this way in every extent. Now, Like there's still a lot of issues with the blood system, but a lot like things do get better as a result of all of the people who are going to die, right, I'm talking about the way it was in like the seventies and stuff.
Yeah.
Now that said, it's still there's a lot of issues and also a lot of problems with like the way in which blood donation is conducted. I'm not saying that there's not, but this is when we're talking about this, this program at its worst.
Yeah, because these people have the incarcerated in the US penal system very little recourse towards towards any alternative. Right. These are also the days of benighted experiments on yes.
Means yes, and all of that is going down. And the fact that, like in terms of the companies who need blood, they're looking at prison pop This is the ideal donor base because number one, the prison population is fairly stable. A lot of these guys are in there for years or decades. You can rely on them. And the need the prisoner's need for cash is also stable. This makes for an extremely predictable flow of product, and businesses thrive when things are predictable. From the early days of experimentation in this field, there had been data that doing this was dangerous. In nineteen sixty nine, The New York Times published a story about several deaths tied to prison derived plasma products. In nineteen seventy, they followed it up with an article describing prison plasma donation as transfusion roulette. In nineteen seventy After seventy four, after several more well publicized blood disasters, the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare published our first national blood policy. It recommended that only volunteers be allowed to give blood, because again, there's so many problems with paying people. In nineteen eighty two, the FDA made a non binding requests that blood donated by prison inmates not be purchased or sold for domestic consumptions. So in nineteen eighty two, the FDA is like, we shouldn't use domestically any of the blood that we pay inmates for. Now. Crucially, they're not saying don't pay inmates for blood. They're saying, don't use.
It here right right. And further, come on, let's spend a little time just scratching behind the ears of statements like non binding. Yeah, come on, pinky is for me, you guys, Like, let's pinky swear just not here, right, just somewhere else, like somewhere else.
So it's not our problem.
The earlier laws regarding us produced propaganda, for instance, right right, Oh geez, well this don't do it sound yeah, don't do it here, don't you know? It's like it's like the shitty stepdad yeah, about smoking cigarettes. Yeah, just don't do it. Well, you know, I can see it all right. I don't want to tell you Mama smelled it.
Yeah, yes, yes. The FDA is definitely in its shitty Stepdad era here. So the industry doesn't stop taking incarcerated people's blood, and in fact, the FDA keeps issuing licenses to export blood to Prisma plasmas prison plasma centers in several states. These included Nevada, Tennessee, Louisiana, Arizona, Missouri, and the focus of our episodes this Week, Arkansas. In nineteen seventy, an Arkansas District court had ruled that several practices at Cummins Prison and Grady, Arkansas were cruel and unusual violations of the eighth and fourteen Amendments. One nineteen sixty nine description of conditions and Cummings said this, many of the inmates psychopathic and sociopathic. Some of them again this is nineteen sixty nine. Some of them are aggressive homosexuals. Many of the inmates are hardened criminals, and some of them are extremely dangerous to society in general, to their keepers and to fellow inmates. Many of them are lingerers and will go to any lengths to avoid work. Many are prone to destroy state property, even items designed for their welfare and comforts. This is how they're writing about these people who are going to become the core of this blood donation system for one very good reason, which is that Arkansas prisons don't allow inmates to work for money, So the blood donation program is going to become the only way Arkansas prison inmates can get cash. In nineteen seventy eight, the US Supreme Court had found that Arkansas's solitary confinement tradition was unconstitutional. Justice John Paul Stevens described the prison system in Arkansas as quote a dark and evil world, and another federal judge described the people who ran Arkansas's prison system as evil men. These are federal judges, one of them is Supreme Court justice. Looking at it, it'd be like, wow, this is like mortor this is but I'm a federal judge in the sixties and this is bad your seventies.
Well still I at someone in that level of the judiciary at that time. Yeah, probably they've probably got their own you know, crimes some shit. Yeah, yeah, they got that seven league. It's stare.
You know, when you see a federal judge using a language that you would expect from like some nineteen year old, like anarchist protester at like an anti prison rally, Like the conditions must be nightmarish. Right, John Paul Stevens is calling the people running this system evil, like, cannot cannot exaggerate how bad it is. It's like when you hear the SS punished a guy for committing war crimes. It's like, oh my god, Wow, it's too far. You know what you do.
It's like it's like here in Atlanta, you might hang out, you know, in various Uh well, i'll see it if someone is too hard into uh crack cocaine or methamphetamine and you know that person, and they tell you not to hang out with wild Jimmy. You don't hang out with wild Do.
Not hang out with Wild Jimmy.
But yeah, but this shows us, this shows us the extent of the problem. And perhaps it shows us that the money moved despite observations of right would have been the rule of law?
Right, yes, well, what was the recommendation of law? Can they never make a rule against this?
Oh it's non binding, sorry.
Right, the pinky swear of law and the other thing is that because this is right, right when those the Supreme Court is like, yeah, this is an evil system run by evil men. That is right when the program of taking blood from these prisoners is about to start. Right, So this is just you've got a prison system where inmates are not allowed to make money any other way. That is already an evil nightmare. And into this situation in nineteen seventy eight steps a new govenor, William Jefferson Clinton, Right, that is his first urnament office, and he's got a lot of exciting plans for how he wants to reform things in one of the poor est states in the Union. And he's also got a lot of good friends who had helped him win election and who he owed some favors. Both of these things are going to come together in the ambition of several men to make Arkansas prisons a major hub for blood product exports. And all of this is going to be done. These are all Arkansas prisons that are donating, but the hub for donation is Cummins Prison, Right, They're sending people there to give donations. That's where the actual because they build a lab there. Right, you have to have some equipment to do this and again, yeah, because there's like, you know, you've got this perfect stable supplier position who have no other way to make money. It's just great place to do this. Now. A few years before Clinton came into office, a doctor named Bud Henderson had formed a company called Health Education Consultants. They did well, and he hired a banker named Leonard Dunn from Little Rock to run business operations. Eventually, in nineteen seventy eight, they'd renamed themselves HMA and jumped into the prison plasma business with both feet. Henderson had gotten tight with the medical director at the state Presence prison system, John Bias, right byus, and so he managedes negotiate a contract to manage both the plasma program and the clinics at all state prisons. Right, So you've got this private company by a doctor Bud Henderson, and he's got this banker Leonard Dunn eventually helping him out. He talks John Bias into giving him the contract to do all of the healthcare, including plasma donation, for the whole Arkansas prison system. This makes Arkansas the only state with a prison medical program run by a a for profit company. Right, that's where this starts. And I'm gonna quote from an article by Susie Parker and Salon here. Susie Parker is an Arkansas investigative journalist. Bias and Henderson say the motive for the plasma program was twofold. The inmates needed money to buy gum and toiletries, and the destitute prison system needed medical equipment. Arkansas is also one of the only states that refuses to play prisoners for their labor. Each unit of plasma was sold by Hma, which was running the program under the prison's FDA license, for at least fifty dollars, and half was handed over to the prison system. With hundreds of prisoners notnating once sometimes twice a week, Plasma became a profitable enterprise, and in fact, in short order, the profits from blood plasma sales turn Arkansas prisons from a line item in the state budget to a net profit enterprise. Because of this program, prisons become profitable in Arkansas right to the state.
Cut some cuts to Governor Clinton doing a six saxophone rate.
Oh yeah, we get just blazon on the right to bleed. That is what they call it. That's literally the term. So as we all know, once the profit motive becomes the governing concern over say, human welfare, people consider some dark things. One of the doctors who worked at Cummen's Prison during this time was a guy named Mike Gouster. He started in nineteen seventy nine, just as the program got off the ground, and he has since made some terrible allegations. Quote. I could see prisoners were being given ilegal narcotics. Several indicated that this was how they were being paid for their plasma. And so guards are being pressured to sign up prisoners to donate. I think there's some evidence guards are getting kickbacks, you know, there's some incentive. And also drugs are always in prisons. But there's only one way drugs get into prisons because prisoners can't leave, right, it's guards, right, Like that's so.
I thought you were going to be fun about it, but no, you're right.
No, no, that like that's the way this works. And this is one of the things that has happened, that's happening. It's not just guards giving drugs. A lot of prisoners who want the money they get from donating to buy drugs because it's prison and drugs make it suck less.
Right, anything can be currency.
Yeah, anything can be currency, right, And there's also some evidence that like some of the prisoners are getting drugs from like the clinics, right, Like they're getting painkillers and shit, which are a lot easier to come by then, right, So even in that case, it's effectively free, right for the people bribing these drugs. There's at least one case here that we know of a reguard taking kickbacks from prisoners who had been rejected from the program because they had blood borne illnesses, uh, and letting them donate because they needed drug money. There's like evidence that people falsifying data to let people who knowingly had tainted blood continue to give it.
Right despite despite clearly provably having something like through hi et cetera.
We have we have we know this happened with the doc documented time, and it's happening a lot more than that one time, right you know. Yeah, this because this guy's going to become one of like the couple of people that they try to use escapegoats later. Now, state investigators later confirmed Gulfster's allegations that prison employees traded drugs for blood. This doctor also observed that many inmate donors he saw quote appear jaundiced and very sick. Quote When I would ask if they had just had a blood test, they would say, no, I've just given plasma. It was clear they were sick. Now, to save costs, this max it even worse again. They want this prison as cheap as possible. It's a big lion item if you're doing blood donations. Boy, you know how expensive needles are here, supposed to use a new one each time, We'll throw it, buddy out the door.
With all the one use needles.
Let's just wash them, which is exactly what they do. So they start reusing needles on these prisoners to get donations, which means not only are sick prisoners some of them know they're sick, a lot of them don't donating and adding tainted blood to the supply, but also a lot of personers who are not sick are getting sick because they donate and then keep continuing to donate and adding even more tainted blood to the system. Now, Golster claims he was unaware of the possibility at the time that this could happen, saying later, quote, I assumed stupidly that our people selling this plasma had some process of cleaning it up. So again, he's a he's like a prison clinic guy, I said doctor earlier. I don't actually know what is his degree state is, but like his attitude is like they've got to be doing something to make this safe, right right, probably pasteurized blood, right.
Yeah, Like it's you know, the modern era. You gotta yeah, we know, right, we know that someone will do something.
It's like somebody will be something.
Yeah, right, someone will always do something tragedy of the commons. You walk into a public space and you go, man, surely somebody sweeps here.
Yeah, somebody's got to be handling the US. Surely, not just sending this to Canada.
I mean, you know, not me obviously, but surely someone along to chain.
Someone must be responsible for making sure this doesn't go horribly wrong.
People can't be that evil they right.
Right, And speaking of human Nope, speaking of great people. Let's have some more ads and we're back, so to save costs, and again because there's no real oversight to the program. It's also like if you want to have like a professional phlebotomist, and like phlebotomists are pretty good generally at like taking blood. If you've ever had like a phlebotomist take your blood and then had like you know, a nurse who's that's not their specialty take your blood. You know that Like when somebody's specifically their whole thing is doing blood draws, it's a much more pleasant process.
Right, Yeah, they know where the vein is.
Yeah, but here's the thing, both nurses and phlebotomists expensive. You know who's you know who works for basically free taking blood? Who is an inmates?
Oh see? Also wait before we go, I do want to point this out for anybody who is a nurse or are in associated listening. That is not to denigrate at all.
No, no, no, And you guys have a lot of security. I'm just saying like people who specifically trained to draw blood are better than people who like that's just one of a bunch of things they do at drawing generally.
Yeah, it's like it's it's like a single knife versus Swiss army knife.
Yeah.
Or it's like it's like how a nursery doctor who's like specialized in like obg way and you know stuff and childbirth, they're going to do a better job of like birth of a child than someone who like that was just part of my training. But I'm I'm here to deal with like car crashes and ship right.
Right, yeah, this this all you know, just like as a representative of Big Vampire. This sounds too expensive.
Let's cut all these people out, anyone professional.
Yeah, let's get let's get rid of these fancy degree types. I want someone on the ground who asked fewer questions.
Yes, someone who's in prison because they shot two guys, right, oh my god, right, yes, yes, yes, perfect, perfect. One witness to this was a former inmate donor, John Shock, who spoke to Susie Parker. Quote, they had inmates doing things they shouldn't have been doing. They would let people who was sick bleed, ain't no telling what they had. They didn't check all the time. And after Shock had been donating for some time, prison medical staff conducted a hepatitis test and he turned up positive. Quote, I am damn sure I got it hepatitis CE in the prison. I didn't have it before I went in. I've never had needles stuck in my arm that wasn't supposed to be there. I've never interacted with homosexuals. I love women too. My Again, this is the seventies. I didn't get it those ways, but right, but he is saying that, like, the only time needles were in my arm was when I doing this blood donation program. Obviously I got hepatitis from this.
Yeah. Yeah, you don't have to be a perfect person to exercise logic.
That's what he's got exactly. And he claims that when he gets diagnosed with hepatitis, see, they don't kick him out of the donor program. And in fact, he claims the doctor who sees him is like, well, your eyes aren't yellow, you don't have jaundice yet, so you're probably fine. He said, quote if you start feeling bad, come back and see me. That's just the way they were. They don't care because you are dirt down there anyway. Yeah. Ah, prisons, yess And what part of the story here is that, like, you know, Americans don't like to think about treating prisoners more nicely. It's never a popular political topic. But when you treat these people like shit and like they're not human, thousands of you might die from tainted Like that's not why you should care, But there are objective consequences to this evil right, Like it never states no, no, no, evil on a popular of people, ever, stays isolated to that population of people. This is a lesson we never learn, but it is important.
That's really well put too. Yes, Uh, that's that's a that's one of the best articulations. Yeah, I've heard of that. Honestly, I'm not blowing smoke. You know that is there is a interlinked system, regardless of whether people want to admit that is.
The we're all deeply tied together. These are human beings who live with us, and treating them like shit causes problems outside of them. Even if you don't care about that group of people, and you should, but like, yeah, you.
Should try, you should try, should maybe you should maybe not try to give them diseases while stealing their blood?
Yeah, you know what that might that might love to you?
Is that a reasonable, reasonable, low enough bar.
But I'm not saying none of these guys did terrible things. I'm saying, don't give them diseases while stealing their blood.
I mean, just like, you know, if you're spitballing, right, if.
We're spit like first first step, maybe don't be a vampire.
All right, hang on, you said you're going to be cool.
You're right, you're right, You're right, because like sometimes you could be the sexy vampire who winds up getting cast in Bong Jong home hoovies or you know, right, yeah, maybe maybe it, maybe this, maybe this will give us more Robert Pattinson move, we shouldn't judge. Oh right now, I'm hearing the Arkansas blood donation program did not lead Danny. Robert Pattinson.
Wait, you have this confirmed?
Yeah, yeah, I have this confirmed.
And it turns out you haven't brought up no s ferratu as we saw that with Garrison.
I'm actually unclear as to whether or not that has something to do with the Arkansas prison system. You never know.
With Willem Dafoe, so about it, Yeah, well, perfect, perfect, perfect.
So the first diagnosed AIDS case in the United States, right, Yeah, June sixteenth, nineteen eighty one. And obviously HIV had been spreading around the country for some time before this point, but it takes a while for people to realize this, especially because of the way HIV. You know you have it for a while before you have you know, you have symptoms that are clearly you know, it takes a long time to figure out what the fuck is going on, right, but once it does, it's become so widespread that there is a fucking panic right now. The panic is initially focused mainly in the coasts and kind of the more densely populated areas than rural Arkansas. So while other institutions start taking action to counter this new blood born horror, the Arkansas prison system does nothing at all. Bud Henderson, who is again the doctor who founds the company managing not just the plasma program but all of the prison clinics in the state, said later there was mentality that we didn't have any AIDS in the central part of the country. The Department of Correction said for years, we didn't have any AIDS cases. There was a subconsciousness that we just didn't want to think we had those people around us. Again, the real bigotry plays and all of this cannot be overstated either. And again, if you just like are what fine with horrible things happening to a group of people people, it never stays isolated to them. However, Henderson does admit that he was aware of a danger because it had impacted his ability to sell blood overseas.
He's pretending money.
It hits his money, right, He's pretending obviously, we don't have AIDS in Arkansas. Keep drawing. But companies countries around the world and companies that do blood imports for them are like, this whole blood born illness, then we're maybe not going to buy as much blood from like shady foreign companies, right, Like, we're really worried about this. And Henderson calls this the worst possible time for plasma sales, and so as a result, he's only able to maintain his profits by finding a partner in Canada, a company called Continental Pharma Cryosand, to take the contract. Now, cryo San is a blood wholesaler. They purchase it, they refine it to specifications that fit what their customers need, and they sell plasma direct to Switzerland, Japan, Spain, Italy, and another Canadian company who uses it to make a factor eight thing for chemophiliacs. Now, a number of these companies that Cryosin is selling to have banned the purchase of blood on their own soil, and I think all of them have banned the use of blood derived from prison inmates, right. But Cryosand doesn't tell them anything, and I think they're generally aware where a lot of this blood is coming from But it's like a loophole, right, No, no, don't, we don't would never do that. That's against that's against our Swiss ethics, you know, to take advantage of of people in that situation and it's not safe. Oh hey, cryosand they've got clean blood and cryosan and ssures. The shipping papers say nothing about the facts, the fact that these products have originated from prison donations. The source was just listed as ad C Plasma Center, Grady, Arkansas. You see that some Japanese guy working at a company that's you know, sending blood to hospitals. Fine, you know whatever, Yeah, we got the paperwork, you know, we got the paperwork. It's all good.
Why would somebody be dishonest about a way to make this much money?
Right? Right? And in nineteen three the program does come to a screeching but temporary halt because during this process, when they're sending shit to cryosand, it is found that several units of blood tainted with hepatitis B have made their way to Cryosan and thus overseas. This was a problem at the time because B, we now know, can indicate the presence of HIV, right, which means we are basically certain that by eighty three, HIV has entered the Cummins blood supply that's being sent out to all these companies. We don't know exactly when it happens, but the amount of age b there finding suggests that it's pretty widespread by eighty three. Now, remember the fact that this tainted blood is leaving the prison also means that it brings spread around inside the prison, some through sex and some through drug use. But it does seem like more than anything because of how many people are donating through tainted needles being used for blood draws, right, because that lowers costs for the company doing the blood draws. Now, this whole disaster, the fact that a bunch of tainted units of blood gets sent to Canada is written off as a screening lapse. The FDA closes the donation program and commings for a while. You know this in eight nineteen eighty three, But in nineteen eighty four they publish an investigation that comes to some damning conclusions. Quote, Health Management Associates had prematurely and improperly distributed plasma contaminated with hepatitis. Twelve ineligible donors had given blood in a breach of screening process, and an international recall resulted. The FDA then revoked the center's license to operate. An investigation revealed that the program allowed disqualified donors to bleed, altered records, and stored plasma in ways that didn't prevent contamination. It also found that Plasma Center staff wasn't well supervised. It discovered attempts by people in hma management positions at the center to hide from FDA inspectors the fact that they had either initiated or condoned the destruction or alteration of records concerning these activities. So this is not just something you can say, well, they shouldn't have put it onto the prisoners, but the problem started there. No, no, no, management is actively covering up that they are produced and selling tainted blood. They inspired, they conspired, they knew, they were incredibly well aware of what they were doing, and they did it all for money. Now it is obvious even this is putting the problem that exists too mildly and in fact, later in nineteen eighty four, in part based on the FDA's investigation, the National Correctional Association puts out an informational bulletin to members and their members are prisons warning that plasma centers are a bad idea. You shouldn't have them in prisons, right, And as a result, most US prisons that had been in the process of like making plans and contracts to do plasma donation programs stop because their whole organization is like, actually, this is a terrible idea. You are opening yourself up to so much fucking liability. Like, just don't do it, right, But the prisons in Arkansas don't stop. Company founder Bud Henderson considered the program critical not just for his own bottom line, but for the welfare of the state itself. And Bud argued it's quote for the good of the inmates because the the prison needed money too. You have to understand. That's why we have your texes.
But like they like it though, they like it though you want to.
Be able to cut those yeah.
Wow.
By the early nineteen eighties, that's when he brings in Leonard Dunn to run his company. Right. I mentioned this earlier. This lawyer from Little Rock, Leonard Dunn is a confidant and friend of Bill Clinton. He's just like you know, he's a banker, right, and Clinton had appointed him at the same time as he's being made the head of HMA, Governor Clinton appoints him to the head of the Arkansas Industrial Development Commission. Now, Clinton also appoints HMA's attorney, Don Smith to the Board of Corrections for the state. So we're seeing these people. One is a close friend of his being put in charge of HMA, and also HMA's attorney is putting put on the board of Corrections. Right, So there's some direct involvement here of the Clinton administration and trying and there at this point trying to get the program going again because it makes the prison system solvent.
And the question that we have to ask on behalf of everybody tuning in. The question is at what threshold can we still maintain some sort of possible, if not plausible deniability.
Right, That is the question we'll be dealing with throughout the episode. But this is what's happened right now.
Right.
So, months after the FDA shut things down and issued a report condemning the whole operation, HMA creates a subsidiary called Arkansas Blood Components or ABC Plasma, and they keep selling the blood that way, right, including to that and to cryosand the company that uses tainted us and made blood that they are there selling this tainted blood to the Canadian Red Cross. Now at Cummins. Plasma donations continued, and by all accounts, most if not all, of the same problems persisted. So they get relicnsed right, And the next year, in nineteen eighty five, stories come out that Arkansas prisons had more inmate complaints than any other state. That's just due to the blood program, but more broadly due to hideous issues with rape and abuse by guards and poor facilities. This is a black mark on Governor Clinton's record, and so he decides, we need to take some serious action in the prisons, not necessarily fix anything, but I'm going to have the state police conduct an internal investigation into what went wrong here, right, Susie Parker writes, the state police prison investigation resulted in two misdemeanor charges and one felony charge for employees running a gambling operation. Only a few weeks into it, Clinton himself urged a speedy end of the probe. I told them to get it done and get it over with. Clinton told reporters complaints about poor health care and the plasma program resulted in no action, and the Arkansas Apartment of Corrections director. A Lockhart, who had been at the center of the allegations, was not punished. Clinton said the prison system had been studied to death and refused to oust Lockhart. Now Susie's right to center a art. Lockhart the Department of Corrections director because he is one of three men who control the state prison system. The other two are a state senator named Knox Nelson and a state representative named Bill Foster. Now, there are allegations that all three men, or at least been close to them, profited directly from the blood program, often by awarding contracts to local businesses who supported them and their campaigns. One good article that I read in the Arkansas Times on the matter interviewed Bobby Roberts, currently the Director of the Arkansas Library System or later the Director of the Arkansas Library System and a former member of Governor Clinton's staff, and he blames Newton and Foster for blocking any attempts to reform the system. Roberts recalled it as a time when Nelson held the upper hand over Clinton with regard to the prison system, which was headquartered in his district. Robert said Nelson made it clear to Clinton that as chairman of the Senate Rules Committee, he would prevent legislation that the governor wanted in other areas such as schools, roads, and economic development, from ever reaching a vote. If Clinton pressed for changes in the prisons, Knox and I got into about everything, into it, about everything under the sun. Robert said, I don't think any governor was going to cross him a handful of other senators down there and think he was going to get anything done. There was a lot of politics that went on in those things. You really could not do anything with the ADC if you ran a fall of Bill, a fell of Bill Foster and Knox Nelson. That's just the reality of it. So Roberts's allegation is that part of what's happening here is these guys see a lot of use in the Plasma program because it's bringing in money, not just to the prison system, but it creates a lot of opportunity to give people work and contracts that also profit them. And it's not just the blood system. The whole fact Arkansas prisons are uniquely fucked up in the US at this point in time, and part of it is because there are being run by these guys who see them as a way to get kickbacks and bribes for their friends. Right, that's effectively what's happening. And their threat is like, hey, whatever else you want to do in the state of Arkansas, Bill, you won't get to do if you fuck with this golden goose of ours. So just stay the fuck away, right.
Just wrap it up, wrap up the investigation, get to your fucking saxophone, right and play nice.
Then you could do some shit with the schools and become president.
Right, whatever you want, buddy, whatever you want. Just keep the blood flowing.
That's one allegation right now. Roberts writes Clinton a letter at this point, right, telling him that appointing HMA attorney Don Smith to the Corrections Board had been a terrible idea. Right, So he's mostly blaming these guys in like the local legislature, but he's also like, why would you put this guy, this attorney at this company that just got shut down by the FDA on the corrections board?
Right?
And he his claim and Roberts would for years claim plasma donations were never like our main concern when it came to prison reform. But he says that it was known to everybody working in the prison system that the program was poorly run and was a disaster waiting to happen. In his letter, he described hma to Bill Clinton as quote, a time bomb waiting to blow up in somebody's face, and before longer it would do just that. But that's going to be in part two. How are you feeling, Ben.
Oh man, I'm so stoked, you know about how how great this is all going.
Yeah, I I am.
I feel like this is a real cliffhanger, right, this is a this is a term moments. Fine, yeah, you know, who knows, Robert.
Maybe it turns out we don't have enough appatitis, you know, have we considered that, Yes we have.
Yeah, maybe maybe the real blood money was the friends we made along the way and whatever. But yes, this is a story more people need to learn about. And I think it's a story that a lot of people are a little bit shook to investigate because in very divisive domestic times, it may tell you a narrative that you don't want to hear.
Yeah, yeah, and it's uh yeah, I think that's like a that's a very good way to put it. And I think the bigger, like the big part of this story is like the distributed system of making great evil, right, very rarely is it like somebody comes in with a plan, a scheme to do something monstrous. It's more incentives a line and a bunch of people make little compromises, and a few people at the top, do you know, are just psychopaths who are like, yeah, I don't give a fuck how many people get tainted blood? I want my money, you know. Anyway, it's cool stuff. Also, I am now thinking of that song tainted Love, but like about tainted Blood, So that's going to be going on in my head for a while. To you anyway, whatever nobody needs that, nobody needs me saying.
Everybody needs it. We need we need someone to write the full parody lyrics of this. Send it to us copyright free, copy right free, absolutely right you copy.
Yeah, you know, get a whole band together, do it. I don't know what we'd use it for because we're already recording the episode, but you.
Know, I think maybe like a like yeah, thank you in advanced folks, maybe like a just a just a non secuitur. You know, there's no joke like an old joke, especially a specific one. So give it, you know, give it a few years.
Yeah, we'll throw it up in a year in an episode on Heinrich Himmler.
You know, oh boy, that's the real banality of Oh geez.
So Ben. Where can people find you on the internet dot com?
Ah? Yes, the internet dot com. That's a real up and coming thing. And thank you for asking, Robert. Well, you can find me hanging out occasionally, uh with you on Behind the Bastards and Each Is Past. You can check out critical thinking, apply allegations of conspiracy and stuff they don't want you to know, or ridiculous history. You can also find myself calling meself at Ben Bullen and ammerse to creativity wherever there's an AT sign. And then you know, before now you could have found me just freestyle selling blood on the streets. But I'm really excited about the catalytic converter thing. I think this, I think that's going to be big for us.
Yeah, yeah, no, it's going to be big for us and obviously big for all of you who lose your catalytic converters. But hey, we've got extras that we took from you anyway.
Yeah, we'll sell them back.
We'll sell them back. That's the episode, everybody come back to part two.
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