Hey, everybody, it's Bill Courtney with an army of normal folks. And we continue now with part two of our conversation with Scott Mann right after these brief messages from our general sponsors. And so that's what the work you were doing. And to do that work, you had to build trust, You had to make promises back to what I was saying, and then I don't want to make it a political show, okay, but then decisions were made that made men like you have to break their promise.

Hey, everybody, it's Bill Courtney with an army of normal folks. And we continue now with part two of our conversation with Scott Mann right after these brief messages from our general sponsors. And so that's what the work you were doing. And to do that work, you had to build trust, You had to make promises back to what I was saying, and then I don't want to make it a political show, okay, but then decisions were made that made men like you have to break their promise.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, just to kind of give you an example of the kind of guys that we worked with. One of my best buddies over there was a guy named Nazam Sarrant, first class in Nazami and he was born into car Province during night Soviet occupation. He doesn't know what day, but his father was a Mujahdine. He was killed by the Soviets. Nazamb group.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, just to kind of give you an example of the kind of guys that we worked with. One of my best buddies over there was a guy named Nazam Sarrant, first class in Nazami and he was born into car Province during night Soviet occupation. He doesn't know what day, but his father was a Mujahdine. He was killed by the Soviets. Nazamb group.

Or the guy freedom fighters who fought against the Soviet pace, that's right who By the way, the CIA trained worked with and equipped with American with American UH military stuff to be able to fight Soviets in Afghans.

Or the guy freedom fighters who fought against the Soviet pace, that's right who By the way, the CIA trained worked with and equipped with American with American UH military stuff to be able to fight Soviets in Afghans.

And most of them ended up becoming al Qaeda.

And most of them ended up becoming al Qaeda.

Which that's the craziest part. We trained them, we gave them their arms, and then they became al Qaeda once a large Russian, a large group of them did became and it was because rather than advise them directly and give them the funds directly and the stingers directly.

Which that's the craziest part. We trained them, we gave them their arms, and then they became al Qaeda once a large Russian, a large group of them did became and it was because rather than advise them directly and give them the funds directly and the stingers directly.

We gave them to the Pakistani IO side and the Pakistani is I created basically what you saw after nine to eleven and what led up to nine eleven, that was a that was a Pakistani intelligence fostered thing. Whole different.

We gave them to the Pakistani IO side and the Pakistani is I created basically what you saw after nine to eleven and what led up to nine eleven, that was a that was a Pakistani intelligence fostered thing. Whole different.

It's a it's a little inconvenient history pet that many people don't understand. But we cheered him on, fed them with intelligence, fed them with money, and fed them with arms because the enemy of our enemy is our friend, and they were Russia. They were kicking Russia's Afghanistan, so yay, we love them. And then it turns around.

It's a it's a little inconvenient history pet that many people don't understand. But we cheered him on, fed them with intelligence, fed them with money, and fed them with arms because the enemy of our enemy is our friend, and they were Russia. They were kicking Russia's Afghanistan, so yay, we love them. And then it turns around.

And this is why I'm always really skeptical about things like Ukraine. It's not that I don't believe that Ukraine is a righteous endeavor, but if you're not there on the ground responsibly monitoring and advising the disposition of funds and weapons, you don't know what's happening, and then the second and third order effects of that downstream can affect our children and grandchildren in ways that we don't even understand, which is Afghanistan. It's irresponsible. But bringing it back to Nazam, this guy, he grew up and he was raised in the barn with the animals. His stepfather wouldn't even let him sleep inside. And when he was seventeen, the towers were hit. NATO soldiers came to the country and he just thought that was the coolest thing, kind of like marking the soda shop, and he joined the.

And this is why I'm always really skeptical about things like Ukraine. It's not that I don't believe that Ukraine is a righteous endeavor, but if you're not there on the ground responsibly monitoring and advising the disposition of funds and weapons, you don't know what's happening, and then the second and third order effects of that downstream can affect our children and grandchildren in ways that we don't even understand, which is Afghanistan. It's irresponsible. But bringing it back to Nazam, this guy, he grew up and he was raised in the barn with the animals. His stepfather wouldn't even let him sleep inside. And when he was seventeen, the towers were hit. NATO soldiers came to the country and he just thought that was the coolest thing, kind of like marking the soda shop, and he joined the.

I was just about to say, how ironic.

I was just about to say, how ironic.

Yeah, yeah. He joined the Afghan Army as a as a young man, and within a year he was a commando. Within another year he was Special Forces Afghan Special Forces. And I spoke at his key at his graduation. I was the keynote speaker. And then he and I worked together down in southern Afghanistan in Kandahar on this village stability mission that I told you about, and he was amazing. He was so good at engaging the locals and so imagine like this Afghan SF operator alongside US SF operators and the Afghan SF are leading the engagements, and I just kept thinking to myself, this is it right here, this is this is how you do it. And Nazam was so good he was, And how many of these what's that? I want to pronounce his name right? Nazam Nazam? The thousands of thousands of these guys, I mean, we stood up. We stood up at Special Forces and other special option units and Afghan Special Operations Group uh in our and and they were commandos. We were like our rangers, Special Mission av and for years, these guys, from twenty fourteen on, they did the bulk of the fighting. Nazamb was so loyal. He was leading an operation of US Green Berets and he came up on a Taliban ambush and he knew he was host and so he brought his weapon up to one the guys and he took a round through the face and he dropped. But he warned the guys in enough time to beat the ambush back. So they pulled him back. They tried to, you know, work on his face. The wound was so grievous they had to call in a dust off helicopter and they sent him off and they thought, you know, that was it. And then five weeks later, he came back on our resupply chopper with US dentures and started conducting operations again. Holy smoke, and this guy this who this guy was? And even after I got out in twenty thirteen, he would call and check on my family how they were doing. And then around twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, we started noticing that he was demonstrating because when I went home and we can maybe we can talk about that I had a pretty dark transition. I had a really rough transition mental health wise, and we could tell that Nazam was going through the same thing in twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen. So we talked him in retiring and that's where he was. He was out of the military wanting to come to the United States on a special immigration visa when everything started to fall apart in Afghanistan and none but nobody from the government would pick up the phone. He was hiding in his uncle's house, like Ann Frank, The Taliban were texting his phone. They were closing in on him, and that's had his phone number. They had his phone number, and that's what they were A lot of the guys like terrorizing him, like we're coming to get you. The whole collapse of Afghanistan was a brilliantly executed syop by the Taliban, who had the local phone numbers of all the fight, of all the Afghan forces, and they just started texting them and they send them pictures.

Yeah, yeah. He joined the Afghan Army as a as a young man, and within a year he was a commando. Within another year he was Special Forces Afghan Special Forces. And I spoke at his key at his graduation. I was the keynote speaker. And then he and I worked together down in southern Afghanistan in Kandahar on this village stability mission that I told you about, and he was amazing. He was so good at engaging the locals and so imagine like this Afghan SF operator alongside US SF operators and the Afghan SF are leading the engagements, and I just kept thinking to myself, this is it right here, this is this is how you do it. And Nazam was so good he was, And how many of these what's that? I want to pronounce his name right? Nazam Nazam? The thousands of thousands of these guys, I mean, we stood up. We stood up at Special Forces and other special option units and Afghan Special Operations Group uh in our and and they were commandos. We were like our rangers, Special Mission av and for years, these guys, from twenty fourteen on, they did the bulk of the fighting. Nazamb was so loyal. He was leading an operation of US Green Berets and he came up on a Taliban ambush and he knew he was host and so he brought his weapon up to one the guys and he took a round through the face and he dropped. But he warned the guys in enough time to beat the ambush back. So they pulled him back. They tried to, you know, work on his face. The wound was so grievous they had to call in a dust off helicopter and they sent him off and they thought, you know, that was it. And then five weeks later, he came back on our resupply chopper with US dentures and started conducting operations again. Holy smoke, and this guy this who this guy was? And even after I got out in twenty thirteen, he would call and check on my family how they were doing. And then around twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, we started noticing that he was demonstrating because when I went home and we can maybe we can talk about that I had a pretty dark transition. I had a really rough transition mental health wise, and we could tell that Nazam was going through the same thing in twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen. So we talked him in retiring and that's where he was. He was out of the military wanting to come to the United States on a special immigration visa when everything started to fall apart in Afghanistan and none but nobody from the government would pick up the phone. He was hiding in his uncle's house, like Ann Frank, The Taliban were texting his phone. They were closing in on him, and that's had his phone number. They had his phone number, and that's what they were A lot of the guys like terrorizing him, like we're coming to get you. The whole collapse of Afghanistan was a brilliantly executed syop by the Taliban, who had the local phone numbers of all the fight, of all the Afghan forces, and they just started texting them and they send them pictures.

Of their kids. Okay, this may sound like a dumb question, but I don't understand this. I don't understand. We had all these guys that we equipped, We had all these guys that we trained, they were already fighting, engaged in the fight with our support. Yeah. Why, first of all, we're about to get into the beginning of so much of what you've done with this amazing background. But why couldn't they fight off the Taliban? They had the munitions and the people. Yeah, yeah, and and and I don't mean that derogatory toward them, I really it's it's an honest, curious question. Why didn't they just kick the Taliban's they had even without us, They still had the money, the minitions, of the training.

Of their kids. Okay, this may sound like a dumb question, but I don't understand this. I don't understand. We had all these guys that we equipped, We had all these guys that we trained, they were already fighting, engaged in the fight with our support. Yeah. Why, first of all, we're about to get into the beginning of so much of what you've done with this amazing background. But why couldn't they fight off the Taliban? They had the munitions and the people. Yeah, yeah, and and and I don't mean that derogatory toward them, I really it's it's an honest, curious question. Why didn't they just kick the Taliban's they had even without us, They still had the money, the minitions, of the training.

There was a lot of corruption, a lot of graft in the Afghan government bad and I don't want to make excuses for them. It was terrible desertions and and morale in the Afghan National Army were terrible, were they? The numbers of And understand too that the in the in our army, right the to be a member of the of the U S Army, the Marine Corps, it's it's a it's a point of pride, not just for the individual, but for the family, the community.

There was a lot of corruption, a lot of graft in the Afghan government bad and I don't want to make excuses for them. It was terrible desertions and and morale in the Afghan National Army were terrible, were they? The numbers of And understand too that the in the in our army, right the to be a member of the of the U S Army, the Marine Corps, it's it's a it's a point of pride, not just for the individual, but for the family, the community.

Right.

Right.

It's not that way in Afghanistan. Remember, this is a rural honor based society based on what the group, the community, the tribe most The only way you live in a city a lot of times is if you've been booted out of the tribe, if you've been booted out of the klan. Really, and so a lot of these folks who are in the military have lost honor or have had to move away from their community, and there's not a ton of nationalist pride in a military. Now it was growing, it was getting better, but again it takes time. You're talking about twenty years after forty years of breaking it if not longer. And so it was starting to happen. And the Afghan Special Operations guys in particular, about thirty k of them reward. They were amazing that they were on billboards. These guys were specially selected. They were the pride of Afghanistan, and they did ninety five percent of the fighting. They took the war to the tech the last five or six years. It was enormous and a lot of people don't know this, but overall the Afghan military lost one hundred thousand people in combat. Wow, and people don't know that. And why people say they didn't fight. I'm like, well, yeah they did. But here's the thing. We built that military in our own image, square peg in a round hole, top down. We built them heavily reliant on sophisticated weaponry and equipment, which required a lot of contractor support. And so when they they had to dominate the battlefield using a three to one ratio like we did. Everything that we built with them was built in our image. And then all of a sudden, as we start to pull back in June of twenty twenty one, the administration decides we're pulling contractor support out, and we pulled contractor support out of the country. So General Samy Saddott told me on my podcast. He said, we were fighting in Helmand and my air commander walked in with tears in his eyes and he said, Sir, we can't fly today. The contractors are gone, and just like that, the Taliban rolled.

It's not that way in Afghanistan. Remember, this is a rural honor based society based on what the group, the community, the tribe most The only way you live in a city a lot of times is if you've been booted out of the tribe, if you've been booted out of the klan. Really, and so a lot of these folks who are in the military have lost honor or have had to move away from their community, and there's not a ton of nationalist pride in a military. Now it was growing, it was getting better, but again it takes time. You're talking about twenty years after forty years of breaking it if not longer. And so it was starting to happen. And the Afghan Special Operations guys in particular, about thirty k of them reward. They were amazing that they were on billboards. These guys were specially selected. They were the pride of Afghanistan, and they did ninety five percent of the fighting. They took the war to the tech the last five or six years. It was enormous and a lot of people don't know this, but overall the Afghan military lost one hundred thousand people in combat. Wow, and people don't know that. And why people say they didn't fight. I'm like, well, yeah they did. But here's the thing. We built that military in our own image, square peg in a round hole, top down. We built them heavily reliant on sophisticated weaponry and equipment, which required a lot of contractor support. And so when they they had to dominate the battlefield using a three to one ratio like we did. Everything that we built with them was built in our image. And then all of a sudden, as we start to pull back in June of twenty twenty one, the administration decides we're pulling contractor support out, and we pulled contractor support out of the country. So General Samy Saddott told me on my podcast. He said, we were fighting in Helmand and my air commander walked in with tears in his eyes and he said, Sir, we can't fly today. The contractors are gone, and just like that, the Taliban rolled.

Well why don't we just hang out on a support role.

Well why don't we just hang out on a support role.

Well that was there. You know. President Ghani came to the United States and asked the administration please just you know, give you keep your advisors. We need, this is what we need, and he had. They called it a wish list, and they refused it. They didn't they didn't honor it. And then so then the only thing that was left was a residual force of twenty five hundred to at least keep like a counter terrorism force in the country. And a lot of the generals felt like if that stayed, that would work. But somehow this administration and like you, I'm very a political on this, but look, you've got to be accountable too, you know, you got to talk about what happened. Trump's Doha deal was not a good thing. It marginalized the Afghan government and dealt directly with the Taliban, so it's set in motion a very bad deal. Biden executed the deal, but then would not listen to senior military leaders who were saying, at least leave twenty five hundred dudes, you cannot just rely on diplomacy in this country, it will fall. He didn't listen. Somebody advised him where he took the advice and he said, nope, we're fully out where everything's coming out. And that's when the House of cards fell, you know, that's when the Taliban looked at it and said, oh, we can just roll. But rather than rolling guns blazing, and they were smart, they just sent text. They just sent text to local commanders, pictures of their families. We're coming for you. Stack your arms over here, get out of your uniform. You'll be good. Except the Special Operators. They said to them, oh, we have a special special surprise waiting for you, which was and they would even tell the local commanders turn them in because they will not be forgiven.

Well that was there. You know. President Ghani came to the United States and asked the administration please just you know, give you keep your advisors. We need, this is what we need, and he had. They called it a wish list, and they refused it. They didn't they didn't honor it. And then so then the only thing that was left was a residual force of twenty five hundred to at least keep like a counter terrorism force in the country. And a lot of the generals felt like if that stayed, that would work. But somehow this administration and like you, I'm very a political on this, but look, you've got to be accountable too, you know, you got to talk about what happened. Trump's Doha deal was not a good thing. It marginalized the Afghan government and dealt directly with the Taliban, so it's set in motion a very bad deal. Biden executed the deal, but then would not listen to senior military leaders who were saying, at least leave twenty five hundred dudes, you cannot just rely on diplomacy in this country, it will fall. He didn't listen. Somebody advised him where he took the advice and he said, nope, we're fully out where everything's coming out. And that's when the House of cards fell, you know, that's when the Taliban looked at it and said, oh, we can just roll. But rather than rolling guns blazing, and they were smart, they just sent text. They just sent text to local commanders, pictures of their families. We're coming for you. Stack your arms over here, get out of your uniform. You'll be good. Except the Special Operators. They said to them, oh, we have a special special surprise waiting for you, which was and they would even tell the local commanders turn them in because they will not be forgiven.

So they really said to these guys, you put your stuff on a pile and we'll forgive you and we'll leave you alone. Expect except for the Special Office guys. We're going to execute them and their families.

So they really said to these guys, you put your stuff on a pile and we'll forgive you and we'll leave you alone. Expect except for the Special Office guys. We're going to execute them and their families.

Yeah, there was no quarter given to them, and there was no quarter given to them. You know. Some of them have now been co opted, unfortunately and put into you know, roles in the military because those guys have had to keep their families alive. But the wholesale abandonment that we practiced on them, they really had no recourse. There's nowhere to go. Afghanistan is surrounded by Iran, to Djikistan, Pakistan, Where are you going to go? You know, Uzbekistan and all of those countries said, uh, I don't even think about coming here.

Yeah, there was no quarter given to them, and there was no quarter given to them. You know. Some of them have now been co opted, unfortunately and put into you know, roles in the military because those guys have had to keep their families alive. But the wholesale abandonment that we practiced on them, they really had no recourse. There's nowhere to go. Afghanistan is surrounded by Iran, to Djikistan, Pakistan, Where are you going to go? You know, Uzbekistan and all of those countries said, uh, I don't even think about coming here.

You know, which is interesting because of the people that you were closest with were the Special Forces guys, interpreters and all these guys. Yeah. Yeah, and so now they have nowhere to go, nowhere to go. Meanwhile, you're in Florida.

You know, which is interesting because of the people that you were closest with were the Special Forces guys, interpreters and all these guys. Yeah. Yeah, and so now they have nowhere to go, nowhere to go. Meanwhile, you're in Florida.

Yeah. And I had actually retired in twenty thirteen, you know, I I didn't like where things were going, and so I decided to hang it up. And you know, it felt really good, man. I had like I was retiring on my terms. Moni and I were, you know, still together, the boys were still in the house, and I was going to write a book on the village stability. I had a job as a contractor. I mean, everything felt great, you know. But I'll tell you Bill, after within like seventy two hours and taking off those desert boots and putting on the Tampa Bay flip flops, the snakes in my head started squirming. One of my old Viet Nom SF buddies, Dave, who's like a national treasure. This guy was on the original Jawbreaker team that went into Afghanistan. They brought him out of retirement.

Yeah. And I had actually retired in twenty thirteen, you know, I I didn't like where things were going, and so I decided to hang it up. And you know, it felt really good, man. I had like I was retiring on my terms. Moni and I were, you know, still together, the boys were still in the house, and I was going to write a book on the village stability. I had a job as a contractor. I mean, everything felt great, you know. But I'll tell you Bill, after within like seventy two hours and taking off those desert boots and putting on the Tampa Bay flip flops, the snakes in my head started squirming. One of my old Viet Nom SF buddies, Dave, who's like a national treasure. This guy was on the original Jawbreaker team that went into Afghanistan. They brought him out of retirement.

Really, yeah, he's just a bad.

Really, yeah, he's just a bad.

And Dave told me over I was bragging about all my transition plans at at a dinner in DC, and he just looked at me in tears in his eyes, and he said, when the snakes in your head start.

And Dave told me over I was bragging about all my transition plans at at a dinner in DC, and he just looked at me in tears in his eyes, and he said, when the snakes in your head start.

To squirrem, I want you to call me.

To squirrem, I want you to call me.

You promise. And I'm like, it pissed me off. I'm like, what are you talking about. I'm fine, I'm good, I'm good, you know. And it made me mad because I'm like, I wanted him to be proud of my plan, you know, and what I was doing. I didn't want to hear any of that, you know, veteran mental health crap. And he said, the snakes in your the snakes in your head, it is so accurate, it is so accurate.

You promise. And I'm like, it pissed me off. I'm like, what are you talking about. I'm fine, I'm good, I'm good, you know. And it made me mad because I'm like, I wanted him to be proud of my plan, you know, and what I was doing. I didn't want to hear any of that, you know, veteran mental health crap. And he said, the snakes in your the snakes in your head, it is so accurate, it is so accurate.

Explain it well.

Explain it well.

I found that when I got out there was it literally felt like things were slithering in my head, Like I looked around at a country I didn't recognize anymore. I mean people, well, the division in the country, the violence in the country. It's Sebastian younger Is said it really well, and this is what I felt. He said, most combat veterans are willing to die for their country, but they have no idea how they're supposed to live for it, because it's hard to know how to live for a country that's tearing itself apart along every imaginable line, from race to economics to politics. And that's what I saw. I came back home and I'm looking. I'm like, this is Afghanistan. This is exactly what we've been over there fighting for all those years, and we're doing it here. That's what all my buddy's done for.

I found that when I got out there was it literally felt like things were slithering in my head, Like I looked around at a country I didn't recognize anymore. I mean people, well, the division in the country, the violence in the country. It's Sebastian younger Is said it really well, and this is what I felt. He said, most combat veterans are willing to die for their country, but they have no idea how they're supposed to live for it, because it's hard to know how to live for a country that's tearing itself apart along every imaginable line, from race to economics to politics. And that's what I saw. I came back home and I'm looking. I'm like, this is Afghanistan. This is exactly what we've been over there fighting for all those years, and we're doing it here. That's what all my buddy's done for.

We'll be right back. Do you find it interesting that Memphis, this is my town and I know these demographics that I'm gonna give you, but it also you can tag about fifty other American cities with the same world But I'm just going to say it to you. Memphis is six hundred and fifty three police officers short. We are a city that needs twenty six hundred police officers and as of today, according to the United States Martial Service, I spoke to yesterday, six hundred and fifty three officers short. As a result, our current police department spends all of its shift time going to take reports from yesterday's calls. Okay, so call after call after call. So if I come on shift today and I'm gonna work twelve hours, I'm gonna catch the overtime because there's not enough of us. All I'm doing is clearing all the calls from yesterday, going report after report after report, just to keep the reporting and the basic services in. I don't have time to chase bad guys now. I don't have time to do routine traffic stops. I don't have time. So what happens now is little by little, your culture in your sidety get pulled apart at the front, at the end of the edges. All of that is because people don't want to be police officers. It's very hard recruit people, and the police officers now because of trust, deplete them. Yes, yes, and it's all when you said that at the beginning, I can't quit thinking about it. But the truth is the community not trusting the police, the police not trusting the community. A person saying I don't trust the job of being an officer, I'm going to go do something else, and now not having a big enough police force to keep a civilized society and check which leads to more distrust.

We'll be right back. Do you find it interesting that Memphis, this is my town and I know these demographics that I'm gonna give you, but it also you can tag about fifty other American cities with the same world But I'm just going to say it to you. Memphis is six hundred and fifty three police officers short. We are a city that needs twenty six hundred police officers and as of today, according to the United States Martial Service, I spoke to yesterday, six hundred and fifty three officers short. As a result, our current police department spends all of its shift time going to take reports from yesterday's calls. Okay, so call after call after call. So if I come on shift today and I'm gonna work twelve hours, I'm gonna catch the overtime because there's not enough of us. All I'm doing is clearing all the calls from yesterday, going report after report after report, just to keep the reporting and the basic services in. I don't have time to chase bad guys now. I don't have time to do routine traffic stops. I don't have time. So what happens now is little by little, your culture in your sidety get pulled apart at the front, at the end of the edges. All of that is because people don't want to be police officers. It's very hard recruit people, and the police officers now because of trust, deplete them. Yes, yes, and it's all when you said that at the beginning, I can't quit thinking about it. But the truth is the community not trusting the police, the police not trusting the community. A person saying I don't trust the job of being an officer, I'm going to go do something else, and now not having a big enough police force to keep a civilized society and check which leads to more distrust.

Because when that happens is well, when you lose the rule of law, you don't lose justice. What happens is you revert back to primal justice. We're all primal, We're all we all live at a at a baseline level, more like folks live in Afghanistan than in the modern world. That's where we all come from. That's what we originate from, and it's what we go to when we're afraid. And so this notion of rule of law and institutional care and all of that, that's a construct. That's a social construct that must be preserved by responsible stewards and leaders. But as you've said, most of these leaders have abandoned their responsibility. I call them divisionists because they foment division in the pursuit of their own narrow agenda versus a bridging approach, which is necessary to be a steward for all of these systems. Like those leaders have bailed, right, and if we don't quote trust, yeah, those leaders, we're not going to bind to the construct right. And there's an article in the Atlantic that says most social scientists agree that for a civil society liberal democracy to flourish, you need three things. Right. You need trust in your neighbors, You need institutions you can trust, and you need stories that you believe in as a collective. How are we doing?

Because when that happens is well, when you lose the rule of law, you don't lose justice. What happens is you revert back to primal justice. We're all primal, We're all we all live at a at a baseline level, more like folks live in Afghanistan than in the modern world. That's where we all come from. That's what we originate from, and it's what we go to when we're afraid. And so this notion of rule of law and institutional care and all of that, that's a construct. That's a social construct that must be preserved by responsible stewards and leaders. But as you've said, most of these leaders have abandoned their responsibility. I call them divisionists because they foment division in the pursuit of their own narrow agenda versus a bridging approach, which is necessary to be a steward for all of these systems. Like those leaders have bailed, right, and if we don't quote trust, yeah, those leaders, we're not going to bind to the construct right. And there's an article in the Atlantic that says most social scientists agree that for a civil society liberal democracy to flourish, you need three things. Right. You need trust in your neighbors, You need institutions you can trust, and you need stories that you believe in as a collective. How are we doing?

So you come back from Afghanistan.

So you come back from Afghanistan.

And none of those are there, like you know, and it was I didn't have.

And none of those are there, like you know, and it was I didn't have.

Some kind of career, and you're seeing destructive of it. It's a different perspective, but you're fighting for what you believe in and fighting against the breakdown or the lack of ever building of that social construct, that trust. And then you come home, yeah, yeah, and you see what you're just love. I call it the churn. And it just that churn that that I'd seen all those years in Afghanistan was here and I just thought, man, what what was this all for?

Some kind of career, and you're seeing destructive of it. It's a different perspective, but you're fighting for what you believe in and fighting against the breakdown or the lack of ever building of that social construct, that trust. And then you come home, yeah, yeah, and you see what you're just love. I call it the churn. And it just that churn that that I'd seen all those years in Afghanistan was here and I just thought, man, what what was this all for?

And and and at the time, you know, I had I had lost my purpose, I had lost my passion, I had left my identity in the team room. You know that I didn't I didn't clock the idea that the army doesn't get to keep those things that my mom and dad instilled in me that those were the things I had walked into the team room with, but I left them there and so now I'm like, it's like it was like I try to tell people when you leave the military, especially the special ops world, it's like you leave because it's a tribal society too. It's an on based society where the team is everything. What you want is an individual doesn't matter, it's the collective. And then all of a sudden you come back to this world where everything's about the individual, everything's about what you do in a contract transactional society that's not about the team. There is no team. It's you and the team that you had is gone. They're back in Afghanistan, you know. And so you're trying to figure out what planet am I even on? And that was for me was the hardest part was I didn't It was like changing planets. I felt like I was moving four feet off the earth, just untethered all the time. And so I would put on a good face everything's fine, but in reality I was really hurting. And that's when the survivor's guilt, the PTS, all the stuff that I had pushed down for years to stay in the fight. He just came flooding in and that's the snakes. And those were the snakes, and I didn't know what to do with them. And I was so scared that I was going to hurt somebody. And I was so scared that I just couldn't do this. I can't do this. I didn't and I would, I would fall apart in the middle of the day. I would start crying. I would, I would, I would lose my I would lose my focus, and I thought, my god, I'm like, I was this high performing dude. I was doing all these things and now like I can't even focus on, you know, a task without just falling apart, you know. And and the boys, my three boys that all these years I couldn't wait to be with them, would get up and walk out of the room because they didn't know what version of Dad they were going to get.

And and and at the time, you know, I had I had lost my purpose, I had lost my passion, I had left my identity in the team room. You know that I didn't I didn't clock the idea that the army doesn't get to keep those things that my mom and dad instilled in me that those were the things I had walked into the team room with, but I left them there and so now I'm like, it's like it was like I try to tell people when you leave the military, especially the special ops world, it's like you leave because it's a tribal society too. It's an on based society where the team is everything. What you want is an individual doesn't matter, it's the collective. And then all of a sudden you come back to this world where everything's about the individual, everything's about what you do in a contract transactional society that's not about the team. There is no team. It's you and the team that you had is gone. They're back in Afghanistan, you know. And so you're trying to figure out what planet am I even on? And that was for me was the hardest part was I didn't It was like changing planets. I felt like I was moving four feet off the earth, just untethered all the time. And so I would put on a good face everything's fine, but in reality I was really hurting. And that's when the survivor's guilt, the PTS, all the stuff that I had pushed down for years to stay in the fight. He just came flooding in and that's the snakes. And those were the snakes, and I didn't know what to do with them. And I was so scared that I was going to hurt somebody. And I was so scared that I just couldn't do this. I can't do this. I didn't and I would, I would fall apart in the middle of the day. I would start crying. I would, I would, I would lose my I would lose my focus, and I thought, my god, I'm like, I was this high performing dude. I was doing all these things and now like I can't even focus on, you know, a task without just falling apart, you know. And and the boys, my three boys that all these years I couldn't wait to be with them, would get up and walk out of the room because they didn't know what version of Dad they were going to get.

You know.

You know.

MANI and I didn't talk. It was just it was it was awful and money.

MANI and I didn't talk. It was just it was it was awful and money.

Did you see it, Yeah, yeah, big time.

Did you see it, Yeah, yeah, big time.

You could see it, you could feel it. And I just feel helpless. I didn't know what to do because it felt like everything was so perfect. We're falling together. We don't have about these deployments anymore.

You could see it, you could feel it. And I just feel helpless. I didn't know what to do because it felt like everything was so perfect. We're falling together. We don't have about these deployments anymore.

Yeah, he's alive. Yeah, Well, I mean you had to have fear that that, didn't You didn't You live in fear of that Hall.

Yeah, he's alive. Yeah, Well, I mean you had to have fear that that, didn't You didn't You live in fear of that Hall.

I mean you do, but you don't because you try to. My job was to just be with the boys and help them live as normal a life as they could, you know, with Dad gone so much, and you try not to focus on that.

I mean you do, but you don't because you try to. My job was to just be with the boys and help them live as normal a life as they could, you know, with Dad gone so much, and you try not to focus on that.

Because there was just everybody listened to us needs to understand the sacrifice, certainly of Scott and his brothers and sisters and arms, but for God's sakes, we need to understand the sacrifice of money and the three kids, and every single man and women servant in our and combat roles overseas, and the unbelievable sacrifice of their families. And then you get home and everything's good, and then the snakes appear.

Because there was just everybody listened to us needs to understand the sacrifice, certainly of Scott and his brothers and sisters and arms, but for God's sakes, we need to understand the sacrifice of money and the three kids, and every single man and women servant in our and combat roles overseas, and the unbelievable sacrifice of their families. And then you get home and everything's good, and then the snakes appear.

Yeah, And it got so bad that there was one day that I just she left and I just I'd been thinking about it a long time, and I just thought days to day, and I was calm. I just walked into my closet shut the door because I I'd played it in my mind a million times, you know, and I just all I could think of was I'm a burden, you know, like this is better. It's just better this way, you know. And I couldn't see, like I can't describe like the fog, but it was so heavy and it was just I just couldn't see any way out, you know. So I went in the closet, I got my forty five and was it was in my hand against my face, and I heard a sound outside in the house and it was my son Cooper had come home. And it was like I stood there and I thought, and I can remember thinking, what kind of dad kills himself and lets his kid find him, you know. And so I put the gun up, and my hands were shaken. That's when they started. They weren't shaken up until that point. And I put the guy cleared to put the gun up, locked it up, and I just and I walked out of the closet like nothing happened. And I was a wreck, get myself together, and I walked out into the into the into the house, just so ashamed and so embarrassed by that scar, you know. By that, by that what I had almost done. And I still felt helpless. I still felt like I don't know how I'm gonna live. And I went back in that closet again a couple of times, never to that close point. But I just was in this purgatory. Man, I don't know how to scrave. It was like a purgatory of being where you can't die and you can't live.

Yeah, And it got so bad that there was one day that I just she left and I just I'd been thinking about it a long time, and I just thought days to day, and I was calm. I just walked into my closet shut the door because I I'd played it in my mind a million times, you know, and I just all I could think of was I'm a burden, you know, like this is better. It's just better this way, you know. And I couldn't see, like I can't describe like the fog, but it was so heavy and it was just I just couldn't see any way out, you know. So I went in the closet, I got my forty five and was it was in my hand against my face, and I heard a sound outside in the house and it was my son Cooper had come home. And it was like I stood there and I thought, and I can remember thinking, what kind of dad kills himself and lets his kid find him, you know. And so I put the gun up, and my hands were shaken. That's when they started. They weren't shaken up until that point. And I put the guy cleared to put the gun up, locked it up, and I just and I walked out of the closet like nothing happened. And I was a wreck, get myself together, and I walked out into the into the into the house, just so ashamed and so embarrassed by that scar, you know. By that, by that what I had almost done. And I still felt helpless. I still felt like I don't know how I'm gonna live. And I went back in that closet again a couple of times, never to that close point. But I just was in this purgatory. Man, I don't know how to scrave. It was like a purgatory of being where you can't die and you can't live.

You know, do you think the snakes I've never asked this question. I've interviewed five or six former you know, combat military personnel and the snakes. No one ever said snakes, but snakes? Do you think the snakes are hatched from the humanity that you had to suppress to be able to do your job effectively in Afghanistan? And then when you no longer have to suppress that the humanity at odds with what your conscious recognizes was inhumane things you had to conduct yourself doing.

You know, do you think the snakes I've never asked this question. I've interviewed five or six former you know, combat military personnel and the snakes. No one ever said snakes, but snakes? Do you think the snakes are hatched from the humanity that you had to suppress to be able to do your job effectively in Afghanistan? And then when you no longer have to suppress that the humanity at odds with what your conscious recognizes was inhumane things you had to conduct yourself doing.

I mean, I think there was definitely some some version of that. I mean I think there's yeah, yeah, there's a conflict, but but not not as much as you would I mean, for me, honestly, that part doesn't didn't bother me. And what I it was it was the loss of friends.

I mean, I think there was definitely some some version of that. I mean I think there's yeah, yeah, there's a conflict, but but not not as much as you would I mean, for me, honestly, that part doesn't didn't bother me. And what I it was it was the loss of friends.

That that's what It's not normal at twenty thirty and forty years old. It is not normal to watch your friends die.

That that's what It's not normal at twenty thirty and forty years old. It is not normal to watch your friends die.

No, there's actually a thing out now called operator syndrome and operator operator syndrome, and it's because they're really trying to take a crack. Is why are so many special operators killing themselves and and why are they going through what they're going through? And you know, the preponderance of the war was fought by special operators. I mean that was you know the war. A lot of conventional guys fought, and God bless them, and I'm not taking anything away from them, but the Special operations Op tempo was ridiculous and and and they're the toll that that has taken with tbi's traumatic blast injuries, UH, sleep deprivation and like you're talking about the uh just the survivor's guilt and all the stuff that goes with you know, PTS as well, all of that. All I know is I pushed all of it down. I had not dealt with any of it, and all of a sudden, it just it just came screaming in. And that's what Dave was talking about, was those because it all became just one slithering lump or crap like I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't clear it, you know. And and I did end up talking to him, I did end up talking to other folks, and the thing that kept coming back to me and my dad helped me with this too, and Mony was the one that helped me more than anybody. But was I realized I was. I just wanted to be relevant again. I just wanted to be in the game again, you know. And I didn't know how to do that. I looked at what was happening in the country, at the lack of trust and the loss of just connection, and I thought, well, I know what that is.

No, there's actually a thing out now called operator syndrome and operator operator syndrome, and it's because they're really trying to take a crack. Is why are so many special operators killing themselves and and why are they going through what they're going through? And you know, the preponderance of the war was fought by special operators. I mean that was you know the war. A lot of conventional guys fought, and God bless them, and I'm not taking anything away from them, but the Special operations Op tempo was ridiculous and and and they're the toll that that has taken with tbi's traumatic blast injuries, UH, sleep deprivation and like you're talking about the uh just the survivor's guilt and all the stuff that goes with you know, PTS as well, all of that. All I know is I pushed all of it down. I had not dealt with any of it, and all of a sudden, it just it just came screaming in. And that's what Dave was talking about, was those because it all became just one slithering lump or crap like I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't clear it, you know. And and I did end up talking to him, I did end up talking to other folks, and the thing that kept coming back to me and my dad helped me with this too, and Mony was the one that helped me more than anybody. But was I realized I was. I just wanted to be relevant again. I just wanted to be in the game again, you know. And I didn't know how to do that. I looked at what was happening in the country, at the lack of trust and the loss of just connection, and I thought, well, I know what that is.

Hmm, Now, isn't that interesting?

Hmm, Now, isn't that interesting?

I know what that is, and I know how to deal with that. And what they're trying to do to deal with this is actually taken them the other way, like this is novel, this is not something what God ess here ain't going to get us there. But every time I would try to talk about it, every time I would try to address it, I would lock up, like in my throat. I would feel like an impostor. I would go through all kinds of anxiety. I couldn't talk, I couldn't speak.

I know what that is, and I know how to deal with that. And what they're trying to do to deal with this is actually taken them the other way, like this is novel, this is not something what God ess here ain't going to get us there. But every time I would try to talk about it, every time I would try to address it, I would lock up, like in my throat. I would feel like an impostor. I would go through all kinds of anxiety. I couldn't talk, I couldn't speak.

We'll be right back.

We'll be right back.

I knew I had something to say, and I wanted to. So poor Manti I told her, I told her, I think I know what I want to do, but I've got to figure out how to do it. So I just started going to like conferences around the country. I would sit in these conferences, these speaker conferences, and I would just sit there and I would listen to all these people about how to be a speaker. And I'm sitting there, No, I'm serious, and it's what you know, it's act, but you know it's those ones like out in California where the speaker comes out and everybody's like all that and it's and I hated it.

I knew I had something to say, and I wanted to. So poor Manti I told her, I told her, I think I know what I want to do, but I've got to figure out how to do it. So I just started going to like conferences around the country. I would sit in these conferences, these speaker conferences, and I would just sit there and I would listen to all these people about how to be a speaker. And I'm sitting there, No, I'm serious, and it's what you know, it's act, but you know it's those ones like out in California where the speaker comes out and everybody's like all that and it's and I hated it.

Yeah, but I'm one.

Yeah, but I'm one.

And so I was at this one in California and it was terrible, and I was getting ready to leave and they said, next guy coming up is bo Eason and bo Is. I looked at the thing. He's a former NFL football player free safety voted the dirtiest free safety in the NFL when he played for the Oilers, and bo Is is now a They said he's a former actor turned playwright turned storyteller.

And so I was at this one in California and it was terrible, and I was getting ready to leave and they said, next guy coming up is bo Eason and bo Is. I looked at the thing. He's a former NFL football player free safety voted the dirtiest free safety in the NFL when he played for the Oilers, and bo Is is now a They said he's a former actor turned playwright turned storyteller.

And I was like, I'm going to be bo Eason.

And I was like, I'm going to be bo Eason.

So I'm watching he comes out on the stage and he's moving on that stage, and he's prow in that stage like an operator, you know, And I'm not kidding. It was like seeing Mark in the Zoda shop, no kidding. And nobody in the audience was moving. Everybody was breathing in unison, and he was telling a story about being a runt and becoming an NFL football player and how he was an imposter.

So I'm watching he comes out on the stage and he's moving on that stage, and he's prow in that stage like an operator, you know, And I'm not kidding. It was like seeing Mark in the Zoda shop, no kidding. And nobody in the audience was moving. Everybody was breathing in unison, and he was telling a story about being a runt and becoming an NFL football player and how he was an imposter.

And that is the greatest juxtaposition ever.

And that is the greatest juxtaposition ever.

I never see.

I never see.

You're doing really good job in storytelling right now, because that's it. Yeah, that was your second yep, that was your that was your second introduction to how to conduct your.

You're doing really good job in storytelling right now, because that's it. Yeah, that was your second yep, that was your that was your second introduction to how to conduct your.

Next stage of life. And so I'm watching him right, yes, that is it. Fourteen, you got your first one and bo and it's hitting me. It's hitting my body as I'm watching him, like having a visceral reaction to this because now I'm like it's becoming clear to me, and I'm watching him move on that stage and then he says this, he blew his knee out for the seventh time, and they're carrying him off the field and he knew that was it, right, And there's a picture of him being carried off the field and you can see he's not even focused on the end. He's not even worried about the fact that he's not playing in the NFL anymore. He's moved on. And he said, what was running through my mind was I'm going to go to prison if I don't learn how to take this T and T that is inside me and put an end of the world for something good. I'm not gonna make it. And I was like, oh my God, like, that's that's me, that's and I just went up to him afterwards, and I elbowed my way through everybody, and I was like, I got to work with you and I and I told him. He looked at me like he was like, what the hell you know? And and but he listened to me, and he said, I'm gonna help you. Here's my number. And the dude trained me for two years on storytelling. Wow, and it changed. It saved my life.

Next stage of life. And so I'm watching him right, yes, that is it. Fourteen, you got your first one and bo and it's hitting me. It's hitting my body as I'm watching him, like having a visceral reaction to this because now I'm like it's becoming clear to me, and I'm watching him move on that stage and then he says this, he blew his knee out for the seventh time, and they're carrying him off the field and he knew that was it, right, And there's a picture of him being carried off the field and you can see he's not even focused on the end. He's not even worried about the fact that he's not playing in the NFL anymore. He's moved on. And he said, what was running through my mind was I'm going to go to prison if I don't learn how to take this T and T that is inside me and put an end of the world for something good. I'm not gonna make it. And I was like, oh my God, like, that's that's me, that's and I just went up to him afterwards, and I elbowed my way through everybody, and I was like, I got to work with you and I and I told him. He looked at me like he was like, what the hell you know? And and but he listened to me, and he said, I'm gonna help you. Here's my number. And the dude trained me for two years on storytelling. Wow, and it changed. It saved my life.

Had to see greatest part of your story I've heard yet. Yeah, yeah, it's it's redemption. Well and what I tell people about and this guy the dirtiest safety in the world. Ultimately, I'm not I don't want to overdo it, but if not saving your life directing it.

Had to see greatest part of your story I've heard yet. Yeah, yeah, it's it's redemption. Well and what I tell people about and this guy the dirtiest safety in the world. Ultimately, I'm not I don't want to overdo it, but if not saving your life directing it.

He saved my life he's the one that taught me into the play that I wrote all of it. He saw in me, like when Mark looked at me at fourteen, he saw what I was at twenty eight. And Bo saw the same thing. And from that point on, and I could tell he saw it, you know, And he told me, said, if you work with me, you're gonna have it requires emotional access.

He saved my life he's the one that taught me into the play that I wrote all of it. He saw in me, like when Mark looked at me at fourteen, he saw what I was at twenty eight. And Bo saw the same thing. And from that point on, and I could tell he saw it, you know, And he told me, said, if you work with me, you're gonna have it requires emotional access.

It's boy.

It's boy.

Almost immediately, I mean at first there was resistance. Like he had me. One of the things he had me to do was say the names of all my guys. Oh boy, And I had not done that ever. He made you do it, and he's like, if you're going to tell the story, you have to say their names and you have to let them be with you. And I fell on the floor and I cried and kicked, and he had a counselor right there as he's doing this, and I'm screaming, and I finally I spit their names out and I say that and I'm just like and he looked at me and said, now we can get started. Can I ask you a question? Yeah, were any of those guys afghans gouts at that time?

Almost immediately, I mean at first there was resistance. Like he had me. One of the things he had me to do was say the names of all my guys. Oh boy, And I had not done that ever. He made you do it, and he's like, if you're going to tell the story, you have to say their names and you have to let them be with you. And I fell on the floor and I cried and kicked, and he had a counselor right there as he's doing this, and I'm screaming, and I finally I spit their names out and I say that and I'm just like and he looked at me and said, now we can get started. Can I ask you a question? Yeah, were any of those guys afghans gouts at that time?

No?

No?

And there were there were playing Yeah, now yeah, I'm able. In fact, I talk about Afghan brothers, you know, right in there with.

And there were there were playing Yeah, now yeah, I'm able. In fact, I talk about Afghan brothers, you know, right in there with.

Important for our listeners to hear. Absolutely we automatically assume that you lost American brothers and sisters in arms. Yeah, that led to the snakes. Yeah. What I have learned from talking to just a handful of guys like you is now, after more progress and more time, there's Afghan brothers and sisters and arms that oh deserve our respect. Oh my gosh, just as much.

Important for our listeners to hear. Absolutely we automatically assume that you lost American brothers and sisters in arms. Yeah, that led to the snakes. Yeah. What I have learned from talking to just a handful of guys like you is now, after more progress and more time, there's Afghan brothers and sisters and arms that oh deserve our respect. Oh my gosh, just as much.

The last three years in particular has been you know, so terrible because they've all been abandoned, They've all been left.

The last three years in particular has been you know, so terrible because they've all been abandoned, They've all been left.

Behind, Which is a great deal, because I want to get to the book and the playwright why you're a member of the army of normal folks, and why I think what you have to say and what we are trying to do are absolutely parallel with one another. But that's a good time for you to tell us. You know you are now fully you are snake depleted, full on Tampa flip flop, living in Florida. Yeah, the phone starts blowing up.

Behind, Which is a great deal, because I want to get to the book and the playwright why you're a member of the army of normal folks, and why I think what you have to say and what we are trying to do are absolutely parallel with one another. But that's a good time for you to tell us. You know you are now fully you are snake depleted, full on Tampa flip flop, living in Florida. Yeah, the phone starts blowing up.

Yeah, yeah, Well, I once I started the storytelling, I three Ted talks keynotes a lot like you, I started really going on to because I felt like the storytelling was cathartic for me and it was my bridging vehicle to reach people. And that's what I was just beautiful. Yeah, and even the play that i'd written. You know, I saw in twenty seventeen that the country didn't even know we were in Afghan Stand and Bo's like, do a play. They'll know, do a play and so so.

Yeah, yeah, Well, I once I started the storytelling, I three Ted talks keynotes a lot like you, I started really going on to because I felt like the storytelling was cathartic for me and it was my bridging vehicle to reach people. And that's what I was just beautiful. Yeah, and even the play that i'd written. You know, I saw in twenty seventeen that the country didn't even know we were in Afghan Stand and Bo's like, do a play. They'll know, do a play and so so.

But we're we're telling a guy who has never written, never anything like that. It's like, hey, quote, do a plus.

But we're we're telling a guy who has never written, never anything like that. It's like, hey, quote, do a plus.

So I just started writing it, and then Moni started helping me because I would write things about it. Was started out as a one person show but about it about a Green Beret sergeant that based on three sergeants I lost in combat. So he became Master Sergeant Danny Patton, a composite character, and I'm writing about him as a one person show, and I'm talking about like what Danny's wife did and said money. He's like that's not even close to right, Like what are you talking about? And she would, you know, like oh wow. And so as it as she started the wigh in what her life experience had been, it started to open up and I'm like, oh, this is yeah, this is not a one person play. This is this is a full on ensemble. So it ended up being a play about a Green Beret sergeant that's killed in that he's mortally wounded in the middle of the beginning of the play and he's trying to ascend to the warrior resting place of Valhalla, but he's he's stuck between his firebase and his living room and he can't ascend. So his best buddy comes down from Valhalla who was killed in the Pentagon based on my best Buddy with other operators, and they become the people in Danny's life that made his heart pump the most blood. They become his wife Lynn, they become his son Kayden. They become his arch nemesis said Wally, and Colonel Smith, and they take Danny through his life from the time he joined the military special Forces nine to eleven, got married, had a kid, all the deployments until he finally figures out it's coming off the rails what he's holding on to, and he lets go, and he does it in front of the audience. It's his full cathartic ascension that happens. And every member of the cast is either a combat veteran or a military family member. And so it became like this whole thing that traveled the country twenty eight thousand miles on the U haul van. We did it as a nonprofit, all of our touring company.

So I just started writing it, and then Moni started helping me because I would write things about it. Was started out as a one person show but about it about a Green Beret sergeant that based on three sergeants I lost in combat. So he became Master Sergeant Danny Patton, a composite character, and I'm writing about him as a one person show, and I'm talking about like what Danny's wife did and said money. He's like that's not even close to right, Like what are you talking about? And she would, you know, like oh wow. And so as it as she started the wigh in what her life experience had been, it started to open up and I'm like, oh, this is yeah, this is not a one person play. This is this is a full on ensemble. So it ended up being a play about a Green Beret sergeant that's killed in that he's mortally wounded in the middle of the beginning of the play and he's trying to ascend to the warrior resting place of Valhalla, but he's he's stuck between his firebase and his living room and he can't ascend. So his best buddy comes down from Valhalla who was killed in the Pentagon based on my best Buddy with other operators, and they become the people in Danny's life that made his heart pump the most blood. They become his wife Lynn, they become his son Kayden. They become his arch nemesis said Wally, and Colonel Smith, and they take Danny through his life from the time he joined the military special Forces nine to eleven, got married, had a kid, all the deployments until he finally figures out it's coming off the rails what he's holding on to, and he lets go, and he does it in front of the audience. It's his full cathartic ascension that happens. And every member of the cast is either a combat veteran or a military family member. And so it became like this whole thing that traveled the country twenty eight thousand miles on the U haul van. We did it as a nonprofit, all of our touring company.

You acted in it.

You acted in it.

Then I decided I'm going to play the lead character because I thought and money was Money was like, you're what, and so.

Then I decided I'm going to play the lead character because I thought and money was Money was like, you're what, and so.

I I secretly actor.

I I secretly actor.

I secretly went to New York for a year and studied under Larry Moss and Carl Bury because they were so they thought the novelty of this guy at fifty talking about a midlife crisis, you know that wants to do this, and so they trained me, and so I trained for a year and then we debuted it at the Marriott because no theater in Tampa would rent to us. And it ended up becoming a tour and eventually he was picked up by Gary Sonise and produced as another tour. And that's what I was doing when Afghanistan.

I secretly went to New York for a year and studied under Larry Moss and Carl Bury because they were so they thought the novelty of this guy at fifty talking about a midlife crisis, you know that wants to do this, and so they trained me, and so I trained for a year and then we debuted it at the Marriott because no theater in Tampa would rent to us. And it ended up becoming a tour and eventually he was picked up by Gary Sonise and produced as another tour. And that's what I was doing when Afghanistan.

Fe I met Gary a couple of times.

Fe I met Gary a couple of times.

He's amazing. He so after so when Afghanistan fell and we stood up this group of veterans that we called the Pineapple Express, Gary Sinise contacted me because he had been contacted by a guy named John Andrassick from Five for Fighting, who was getting musicians out of the country, and I had met John.

He's amazing. He so after so when Afghanistan fell and we stood up this group of veterans that we called the Pineapple Express, Gary Sinise contacted me because he had been contacted by a guy named John Andrassick from Five for Fighting, who was getting musicians out of the country, and I had met John.

Oh really, yeah, I've never even heard that story.

Oh really, yeah, I've never even heard that story.

He and I met each other and I told him about the play, which we had turned into an Amazon film during COVID and he watched it and he said, Gary Snice need to see this. And I was like, dude, I've been trying to get this run Gary for six years. Good luck and he's like, no, he's one of my best buds. I'll I'll get him see it. Gary called me the next day and he had watched the play and we talked in my driveway. I walked in my driveway for two hours, just talking, and he said, Okay, I did a play like this after Vietnam called Tracers to help Vietnam veterans. We're going to do this. This needs to tour house soon. Can you get the cast together? And I was like, you don't want to do a contractor and he's like, no, we're going. Be ready and we went and we did it. We toured another non cities for an entire year in twenty twenty three to help heal after the Afghanistan collapse. So the play was very much it's been a big part of our life, and it was all grassroots. Man. Almost everybody in the play has not been a professional actor. We travel with our own counselors. Two hundred and fifty pit pts, interventions in the lobbies.

He and I met each other and I told him about the play, which we had turned into an Amazon film during COVID and he watched it and he said, Gary Snice need to see this. And I was like, dude, I've been trying to get this run Gary for six years. Good luck and he's like, no, he's one of my best buds. I'll I'll get him see it. Gary called me the next day and he had watched the play and we talked in my driveway. I walked in my driveway for two hours, just talking, and he said, Okay, I did a play like this after Vietnam called Tracers to help Vietnam veterans. We're going to do this. This needs to tour house soon. Can you get the cast together? And I was like, you don't want to do a contractor and he's like, no, we're going. Be ready and we went and we did it. We toured another non cities for an entire year in twenty twenty three to help heal after the Afghanistan collapse. So the play was very much it's been a big part of our life, and it was all grassroots. Man. Almost everybody in the play has not been a professional actor. We travel with our own counselors. Two hundred and fifty pit pts, interventions in the lobbies.

That's there that part say that again.

That's there that part say that again.

Yeah, So what we found was we would get jammed up in different scenes because they're so visceral. So we started traveling with a counselor. Although it's a piece of fiction, it is all based around people that you knew, and likewise.

Yeah, So what we found was we would get jammed up in different scenes because they're so visceral. So we started traveling with a counselor. Although it's a piece of fiction, it is all based around people that you knew, and likewise.

All the scenes are true, and likewise, all the scenes are true, and likewise, many of your audience members as they're watching this, they must be having this react. Yeah, I mean all of that is just real to them, right it is.

All the scenes are true, and likewise, all the scenes are true, and likewise, many of your audience members as they're watching this, they must be having this react. Yeah, I mean all of that is just real to them, right it is.

And what I wrote the play because I want to do inform civilians like you've been doing on the cost of modern work, because they just didn't understand at all, and I wanted to validate those who had lived it, and I wanted it to happen at the same time at a community level in a theater where they're all sitting together, Democrats, Republicans, politicians, wounded guys, all that gold Star family members all there, and so then we do the play. Everybody goes on this ride with Danny and his family, and then at the end, when he ascends and the play ends, we have a talkback. And sometimes the talkback will last as long as the play. We'll come out and the actors sit on blocks and we're all veterans and family members, so we lead the talk back with the community. But the coolest thing is that's when the community stands up and a ghost our mom, you know, says I saw my son tonight, you know, And you're like, what do you even say to that? You know it? But she says it in front of her neighbors and they get to hear that, and they get to feel that more importantly, and everybody just leaves there changed with a new fundamental understanding of what it means to serve at that level.

And what I wrote the play because I want to do inform civilians like you've been doing on the cost of modern work, because they just didn't understand at all, and I wanted to validate those who had lived it, and I wanted it to happen at the same time at a community level in a theater where they're all sitting together, Democrats, Republicans, politicians, wounded guys, all that gold Star family members all there, and so then we do the play. Everybody goes on this ride with Danny and his family, and then at the end, when he ascends and the play ends, we have a talkback. And sometimes the talkback will last as long as the play. We'll come out and the actors sit on blocks and we're all veterans and family members, so we lead the talk back with the community. But the coolest thing is that's when the community stands up and a ghost our mom, you know, says I saw my son tonight, you know, And you're like, what do you even say to that? You know it? But she says it in front of her neighbors and they get to hear that, and they get to feel that more importantly, and everybody just leaves there changed with a new fundamental understanding of what it means to serve at that level.

And you also have people there to talk to, folks who write snakes. So we have counselors. We position our counselors near the doors, and then we have a couple of spotters. And because what it will invariably happen is members will they're watching the show, they'll have a visceral reaction that's emotional and they need to get away.

And you also have people there to talk to, folks who write snakes. So we have counselors. We position our counselors near the doors, and then we have a couple of spotters. And because what it will invariably happen is members will they're watching the show, they'll have a visceral reaction that's emotional and they need to get away.

And we're not doing it to rattle them. The plays just realistic, but they have the reaction, and then we will intervene in the lobby and help them bring themselves back down to a parasympathetic state. And they're most likely not getting help. That's what we learned, is they're not getting help, and so we make sure that we help them immediately. Right then we stay with them most of the time. They go back in the show, you know, and they go for the rest of the ride, and they participate in the talk back and they actually tell us what an amazing experience it was. And then we run a storytelling workshop for them the next day that they can come and tell their story, and we have counselors there, but we also connect them to local counselors to make sure that they've got Because if you go see Saving Private Ryan or Hacksaw Ridge and you're a medic or a combat veteran or a first responder and you walk out, and I'm not blaming those films, but what do you do who puts you back together? Right? Try to take a very very intentional effort to use it as an opportunity to spot and assess those that are not getting help and intervene immediately. And we've done over two hundred and fifty interventions on the road and it's been wildly affected.

And we're not doing it to rattle them. The plays just realistic, but they have the reaction, and then we will intervene in the lobby and help them bring themselves back down to a parasympathetic state. And they're most likely not getting help. That's what we learned, is they're not getting help, and so we make sure that we help them immediately. Right then we stay with them most of the time. They go back in the show, you know, and they go for the rest of the ride, and they participate in the talk back and they actually tell us what an amazing experience it was. And then we run a storytelling workshop for them the next day that they can come and tell their story, and we have counselors there, but we also connect them to local counselors to make sure that they've got Because if you go see Saving Private Ryan or Hacksaw Ridge and you're a medic or a combat veteran or a first responder and you walk out, and I'm not blaming those films, but what do you do who puts you back together? Right? Try to take a very very intentional effort to use it as an opportunity to spot and assess those that are not getting help and intervene immediately. And we've done over two hundred and fifty interventions on the road and it's been wildly affected.

It is phenomenal. We call it our emotional breaching tool. That a play can be therapeutic and even lead to deeper therapy.

It is phenomenal. We call it our emotional breaching tool. That a play can be therapeutic and even lead to deeper therapy.

But you know what, civil society has been doing this for thousands of years, Bill, If you think about returning warriors, they sat around a fire, they told stories. The warriors told stories, and the community listened, and that cathartic experience is what storytelling is actually, as storytelling came around. You know, actually, what we're doing is not new, it's just we've forgotten how to do it as a civil society. Most countries do this when their warriors come home. We don't. We just throw them into the game and give them a job and a ticket to a ballgame. You know, well intended, well intended, and I'm not diminishing that, but that's not We need these guys and girls back in the game. We need them leading us here at home. The country is so divided right now. I think personally, our global War on Terror. Veterans, in my opinion, the one point eight million of them, they're our last best hope for this country in my opinion, because they represent a core fiber of character that, if put into play, could bring us back together. It's a long shot, but I think they could, and especially if they're working with leaders like you at the civil society level, at the community level, there's no ceiling to what can be done. You know, I look at Ben and jess Owen what they're doing here in Memphis, in South Memphis. I look at Al who I met last night that's doing his outreach with veterans. They're all veterans. And I'm not saying you have to be in a veteran to do this. I'm saying, no, it's not about giving them a blank. There's a community. It's about getting them in the game because they've gone to places and led through situations that would make most diplomats spit up a hairball, right, and they know how to lead in ways that are so contributory. But instead we're medicating them, We're sitting them in a corner, we're telling them they're victims. You know, we're not engaging them and empowering them to lead us. And that's what the play is about. Really, the play is about breaching those emotional walls so that we can have the hard conversations that we've got to have.