M hey, well, welcome in im Doug Gili. This is a ball um. This is part three and if you haven't heard part one part two, shame on you. Justin plente I thought really open with us what happened at Virginia Tech. As part of part three, how do you was Frank Biemer secretly working behind the scenes? What was Bud Foster like to work with? And what are the coaching lessons like your ball coach basketball coach? Are the coaching lessons we can take? And what's he doing now? What's he gonna do in the future. That's all part of part three. Let's take a listen. There's part three of my talk with Justin Plentee. I think that it's fascinating how you have to put everything together. Again, a lot of this is informing people of things they have no concept of. So you decide to take the Memphis job, and you you told me before your wife said she was all for it. So okay, So what happens you take the Memphis job? How do you decide who you bring with you? Yeah? So, I mean it's something I had already put thought into. But you know, the the question of who can you hire or who who do you want to hire? Essentially revolves around how much do I get to pay? Right? Like what like what are the parameters with which what's my budget? So you know that's always kind of like an interview question, but it's it's usually answered with another question like, well, I don't know, like you know, what's what's my budget? And um I And this kind of speaks to the bigger picture. At Memphis, they had not been very good. Okay, Like Tommy West had one there and you know, it was it was give or take about the round of the time cal was there and basketball was blowing up, and you know, they didn't fund football very well. And you know Tommy you know, had health issues and was you know, basically pounding his head into the wall trying to get money for football. Then they brought in coach Porter for two years, and you know, it just hadn't been very good and hadn't been very well funded. And in my mind, like sometimes you gotta hit rock bottom before you make a commitment to getting better. And that's kind of how I viewed the people involved in the program in terms of their commitment to trying to to get this thing up and running. It was like we need to either go get this thing going or quit trying. Basically, it was like, let's let's go, like we've hit rock bottom, like coach, we want to give you resources, tell us what to do, you know, like this has been so bad for so long. They do they do that because because like again the way you, the way you. I talked about taking a job. And here's what's always interesting, Right, you want the job, and really how much you made, you personally made, wasn't all that important, right, you know, it's about you know, it's about a million dollars give or take. But like, during this process I've wanted to take the job, would you be able to say, hey, what's the salary pool for the assistance or as you already taking it? And then afterwards, So the greatest thing ever was yes, in the interview process, I asked about the salary pool and I was given a number and I can't remember what it was, but I was given a number and it was a good number. Right at the time, you had nine assistant coaches. Now you're up to ten. But it was a good it was a good number. Like I was like, Okay, that's that's how we can work with that and and then I remember the very first day I was on the job. Um, I mean we had like from six in the morning until ten o'clock at night. It was all meet and greet. Like I had a list of all these things I need to get done, and like I never got I couldn't get to any of them. It's the same old thing, Like it's just my own ignorance of of what it was gonna look like, kind of like when I asked, but I I honestly coach. I honestly think in most people's ignorance. Yeah, I mean obviously in the profession, but like we think. I think people think you get the job, you go to school, and some of these schools are like it, you do the press conference, then you just go to truit players. Everybody's like it's like a symphony. Everybody's working for you. You're not doing ship. You're just shaking hands, kissing babies, and like there's a lot of stuff, you know, and your phone is swinging NonStop, so like every moment that you're not addressing whatever the issues are, you know, then those issues are piling up, like you can feel it in your pocket, like you can you can feel your phone buzz and that's one more issue, that's one more phone call, that's one more thing that you've gotta you've gotta get done. So or I was doing with this. At the end of the night, I was talking to Dr Raines, Dr Shirley Raines, who was a president at Memphis at the time. And it was a weird situation because um R. C. Johnson was the A D. But he was leaving. It had already been announced that he was retiring. So he was the A D. But he was, you know, for lack of a better term, to lane duck, a D. He was not involved in the hiring process, but Dr Raines was. And so I asked Dr Raines about the salary for the assistant coaches and I and and she I asked her, you know, like does that count the off the field spots? You know, like that does that? Does that? Is that divided by nine people? Or is that divided by fifteen people? And she looked at me and said, how about this? And she gave me another number that was higher than what they had told me. In in the end you and I was like, you bet, like let's go. And so right then I had even more immunition than when I took the job of going out and trying to hire hire people, and the first thing I needed was a defensive coordinator, you know, like, um, it was a little fratuitous because Old Miss had gotten fired at the same time, and there was two guys on that staff at Old Miss, one um that I had played with at Murray State and Chris Vaughan, and the other I knew was James she Best and they both they got letting go and both needed jobs, and um, it worked out that we were paying enough that we could keep them away from some other jobs and and and hire those two really really good guys. And then I needed to work on on finding the two things I knew I needed were I really obviously needed somebody to run the defense, and I needed I really wanted a former head coach on the staff. I were really wanted somebody that had been there and done that. And I went about trying to put it all together. Who's who's advising you, Who's who's the person that you called on? What do you think Nobody like at this point, Like I'm I'm just going like I've at this point, I'm still in the realm of what I've prepared for that makes sense. Like I'm still in this in the in the in the box of okay, Like I know what I need to do starting out now. It didn't take very long for me to get out of a box. You know. It's like when I became the head coach, I'm like I I felt to myself again ignorance, like I couldn't. I will never be more prepared for this job than I am right now, right Like, I know exactly how I want to practice, I know exactly I want to study all, I know exactly who I want to hire, I know exactly what I want this to look like this look And two days on the job, I'm sitting in there going I know nothing, Like there's been fifty things come up that I never even thought about in the first two days, and um, but slowly went around. I'm a list guy, just started making lists and started you know, the first thing I needed to do was meet. But I met with each member of the former staff, and um, we had a team. How did you handle that? How did you handle that? Because because you know, like I know people who you're on a former staff, and sometimes the coach doesn't let you go immediately. Kind of wants to see what you can do sort of thing. But you also you need loyalty and need people that you know and that you trust. So there is a reality to being one of your guys. How did you handle them? Well, there was one guy on the staff that um that I knew I was going to keep, that I had worked with in Illinois State, so I knew I know he was gonna stay, like I had known him. Did you tell him or do you think I told him? I said, you're you're staying. We'll figure out the position. I think you're gonna be the linebacker coach. We'll worry about it, but don't worry about anything. And and then I went about and just talking to other ones. It was a weird balancing act because most of them I knew we were going in a different direction, and many of them I could tell that, you know. But there was a few that I'm like, I don't I'm not sure who I can hire, you know, Like I've got three people that I really want to hire in this spot, but then they all tell me no. So there was a couple that I told, you know, most likely this is what's going to happen. Most likely were I mean, I'm going to go in a different direction with these couple of people, but I may not be able to hire me, and if not, that we need to have a conversation. And there was a couple of them that I that I had to kind of put in that category for lack of a better term, and they all understood it, you know, like they get it. You know, they totally they totally get it. Um. I made a huge mistake. And this was not a add person at all. I kept the strength coach for one semester and it had nothing to do with him being good or about at his job. But it was a really rookie mistake by myself and the fact that I felt like I could teach him how I wanted it to look and that he could go put it into action. But what I came to learn over that first semester was like, yeah, I had time to give the big picture, but I could have changed that thing myself. Like my ego was like I can get in there and change it. And he was a good coach, don't get me wrong, But I messed up like we should have. We should have just switch that whole thing over right from the start. So I was a semester behind and changing the strength the strength staff right, and I don't And I think I think people have started to understand strength coaches, but I'm not sure they totally get it right. Like the strength coach, they're the connective tissue. They see those kids more than anybody else, Like they were literally around them more than anybody else. So you have to have somebody who is echo to your voice that that is aligned with your vision. Um. That's a that's an interesting one. Um, what about the roster? How long did it take you to kind of go through the roster what you had? Oh, it was sad, it was bad. Like so we had a team meeting and it was right before break so like I don't remember how it all worked out with the calendar, but basically I had a really quick team meeting and and then let those guys go. They they finished finals and went home and then came back. So I didn't have to do much with the current team. There wasn't much to do. That wasn't positive because um, because I could kind of set that they were at home, nothing was going on, Like I couldn't see him. We had other stuff we needed to get done. So you know, it was kind of like one thing kind off my plate and to preparation and just in soul preparation for their return. But our numbers were terrible. Um for a really affordable school, our walk on numbers were terrible. Um. They had run through a bunch of players in terms of um, just attrition and UM. You know, when they came back, it didn't take me very long to realize that all of the all of the qualities that you have that you would associate with the team, from caring about each other to accountability, to unity, to work ethic, we had none of those. Um. We just we really didn't and and we focused on one thing. So I made this list, this terrifying list of all the things we needed to do, and it was just I mean, I don't know how long it was, but it was long. And I said, I cannot walk into this meeting with these kids returning and give them this list. I mean, it's just ridiculous to think that we could accomplish or we could address all of these issues. And so we've boiled it down to one thing, and that was individual accountability. Like and that was the way we started with with this is going to be the most cut and dry thing you've ever seen. You're either here on time or you're not. Okay, you're either where you're supposed to be, doing what you're supposed to be doing when you're supposed to be doing it, or you're not. Period. There's no discutt like it's and we tried to just boil it down to that and see how could we build upon being accountable And that's kind of where we started. That was kind of day zero. Um, this is one that always interests me. You got to find a place to live, Okay, and now you're a head coach. Right, Remember this is a couple of years ago, and this is probably six years ago. Whatever you had found about your first house in Fort Worth undern eight thousand dollars, Now you're head coach. So obviously your wife it's kind of her thing. But do you where you did you go house hunting with her? Did you get specific instructions? Was there a dollar limit? That did Memphis people like this is this is where you need to live right here? You know, like, how does it? How does it work? Well? So, um no, I didn't do hardly any of it. Um Jen went out and spent one or two days with the realtor and then narrowed it down the three houses. Took me to those three houses. You know, I signed off on two of the three and she picked the ones she wanted. Basically, how it went, um living in Memphis, you know, basically for us at least not for everybody was um. You could. Most of our staff lived out like outside the loop, like east of Memphis. We lived two miles from the campus, and I think that was you know, we we sacrificed a little bit a house for that, meaning you know, we couldn't get as much house for our dollar living in the older, kind of older nice part of town as we could have if we'd have lived out. But to be two miles from campus was incredible for my ability to be available at work and our my family, my young family's available ability to be available at work. Um. And then in terms of it as a new town, you're working so much, you have all of this stuff going on. I know that you get asked to meet, greet stuff, but what is it like to how long does it take for you to feel like okay, you know where you're going, you know, places other than just the loop. You could wear out between your house and the office your house, the office your house. And yeah, it's interesting you bring that up driving in town because like, I mean, we were there for were years and I would and my wife would be in the car with me, and I'm like, do I take a right here? I like, and I'm like, I've got decent navigational sense, but like I just strove to work at home. You know, it was dark both ways, and you know, like you know, I just I just I don't I honestly, I truthly, Lise, and I'm not. This is not me kissing up. Like I understand people who work, they work. I don't think I just don't think people have a healthy understanding of I had football coaches in charge of eighty five scholarship players, everybody in your staff, all the ancillary staff, right, and you're you're trying to it's your first job, so you probably micro managing a little bit more than you you want to, because you you gotta get it right, right, because if you have two really bad years, like that's it, it's over. They don't call you back, right, So it's a it's an all encompassing thing. What about your relationship, will you're kids with your wife? How was that it was good. My wife was incredible. There is still incredible when it comes to all of that. Like never once We've been married since two thousand and five, and never once have I gone to work and she said, you know, when are you going to be home? You know, like never once, and she put that a little bit of pressure, just that little bit of pressure of you know, get get back home now. She also knows that I'm coming home as soon as I possibly can, you know, Like she also knows I think in her heart that I'm not stopping anywhere. I'm not detouring anywhere, Like I'm going to work and I'm and I'm coming home and I want to be here, you know. And I think that helps alleviate a little bit of that pressure when she knows, I think in her heart that there's only one other place that I want to be now. Also, I love work because I mean it's there's a lot of people that wake up this morning and they have to go swing a sledge hammer, right Like I'm not working, okay like this, right Like I'm hanging around with great athletes and really smart people and young people and you know, like you think about going to college and there's all these people that their sole job is to help you be successful, right, Like, there's never another time in your entire life when you're surrounded by this many people that their whole mission in life is to help you either be healthy or eat better, or be stronger, or make better grades or get a better job, whatever it is, that's their whole mission. And that's a pretty cool thing, you know. And so you know, work is a loose term, you know, like it's a lot of fun, and you know it's it takes a lot of hours and there's a lot of sacrifices everybody makes. But I tried to incorporate our families into all of it. I had been places where, you know, that wasn't the case, and that was fine, that's the head coaches prerogative, um, But that was not the way I was going to do it. Like I really believed that if if somebody's child sitting on your lap in the middle of a staff meeting, he's going to prevent us from doing our job, then weren't messed up. So we got kids running around, you know, like I want him to come to practice. So we tried to incorporate them, and we had a younger staff. Some of them had younger kids that they knew, Like I had a meeting with the wives every year where I just said, like, you need to know that you are welcome up here all of the time. Like you need to know that you don't need permission from me to bring your kids up here to come see their dad on a Wednesday night because he's working late, Like, come on. And I think that helps a little bit. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox Sports Radio dot com and within the I Heart Radio app search f s R to listen live. First time you you saw pac The first time I saw him was on his recruiting visit. But the first time I saw him throw the ball he was enrolled at Memphis. I've never seen him throw a ball. And uh, we're not really supposed to be out there in the summertime or not not We're not really we are not supposed to be out there in the summertime. And I did not go out she just happened. Just happened. I did not go out there, but I did stand in the weight room and watch him, uh throw the ball in his first day out there, and I can tell you this. Okay, so before we get to that. Okay, So before him, some guys have this thing like I don't like supertall quarterbacks. I don't like super little quarterbacks. I don't like left handed quarterbacks. Now I gotta switch my whole thing up. Before you had him as your quarterback, what was your prototype for your offense? Yeah, so I'm I mean, first of all, we weren't aid be very picky, uh but like given the yeah, yeah, you know, um, like we recruited Trayvon boy Can at uh TCU and he was athletic and smart and could could really whip the ball. You know, Andy was an exception of the royal. He's such a great player, but he was athletic enough and could really sew the ball. So I didn't really care. Like the game is evolved enough that you know, how tall they are is was not a huge It used to be a big deal, but it didn't bother me. I'm just saying it has been some people. It's like, how bigger short wasn't that big a deal. It's like there's some element of stuff in there that you can't measure that I don't know how you can figure out. That's why you know the NFL ways millions of dollars on quarterbacks. You can't play every single year. If you could figure that out, you'd you'd be in great shape. But um, you know, I didn't have a single thing, but I did believe that if you had a decent athlete, it gave you more room for error. You know. So okay, so you're in the weight room and you knew you had signed him, and you watched him throwing what relief? This relief came over and I wasn't I wasn't like super giddy excited, but I was like worried because I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, Like is this kid going to pick up the ball and you know, like throw it into the dirt or like dropped the ball all the way down to it. Not I've seen it on film, but like I don't know, And he just pulled it back and zipped it. I was immediately I felt relief that that yeah, said he had some talent, that that we were all right. Um, okay, so you're getting ready for your first day of spring and this is kind of you prepared your whole life for it. You know, how did you how did you handle spring practice? How did you in terms of in terms of it looking like yeah, so, I mean everything that I wanted to do in the off season and leading into football, and the way we practice was from Gary Patterson at TC, every single bit of it, like almost to exactly how we were going to practice, exactly how offseas are looking around. So if you go back to the first day of off season and we have our circuit set up, and I basically tell the coaches I got this, Okay, you be there too, but like they don't know it. I review it and and talk about what we're gonna do. But basically I'm running the whole thing. And the kids are in like three different groups, like one group comes and then they leave, and then the next group comes. So I mean we have in our in our circuit, we have like six or seven stations that we have to that we have to go through, and it takes fourteen minutes and it's not very fun. But it's not the to the world, and it's not it's not a two hour drudge best you know, it's we get in there and we go and and and like I said, there's six or seven stations and we made it through two before we did. I mean, it was the worst condition the group of people I've ever seen, and the looks on their faces, which was, we're really terrifying in terms of like, this is a group of of young people that really does not care about anybody else on the team. Like that was the two things that were so obvious to me, Like they don't care, Like the looks were so blank, and there was not one sense of communication between any of the kids or anything. And it was terrifying. Like I remember walking into the locker room afterwards and looking at all the assistant coaches and thinking, every one of these city coaches gonna call and ask the road job back, you know, like it this is, this is even worse than I thought. So we get into spring ball and we wait, so when you but before you get that, So when you did meet with your coaches after that, what was their feedback? Oh, they were terrified. Now they're like, I've never seen anything that bad. I'm like, I know, like we made it through two drills, and so you know, we got our work cut at for us. Guys, Like first of all, they've never worked and they've never had anybody care about And I don't mean that bad about anybody that's there, but that was that was that was what I saw, you know, that was my evaluation because they don't know how to work, they don't and they don't care about this program, you know. So, um you know, we went about trying to build relationships with them, and it was hard because at the time and they fixed us now, but our offices were on campus and all the practice facility, weight room and stuff was at South Campus, which is about a mile from there, so it was hard to My big deal was I want to see the kids. It was just hard, like we had to because they would they would go to school over here our offices where there's really no reason for them to come to our office because they're not going to the training room, they're not going to the weight room. There's there was no real reason for them to come by there. When they finished school, they'd go to South Campus. So every day at noon we just go to South Campus and be there to see them, you know. So. Um So then we we started spring ball, and that's where I made more idiotic decisions, right, you know, I was going to run the offense and again, I've seen all these plays work at TCU. I know how we did things that TCU. We'll just do them the same here. And we go out there and I mean it's it's awful. Okay, so bad, it's so bad. Um, So you line up against Duke? Is your first home game? The running out there? What do you remember? Well, our first home game was you T. Martin my first year, the second year was Duke. Okay, okay, so you got to play you T. Markin. Yeah, and we lose, and we lose because they're better than we are. Okay but wait so but but that that feeling, yeah, you know you you've done this a long time, but now it's your team. You go running out there, you remember like how many people are there? So there was about a two hour rain delay and we were up by seven Martin. Yeah, it's like, I don't know. It's in the third quarter. There's a two hour rain delay and we're up by seven. The officials called us and they're basically like, do you guys want to finish this or not? And I'm just praying that the head coach that Martin says no, and I don't blame him either. He's like, well, we're down by seven with a quarter and a half to play, like we're gonna finish this. So we wait for two hours and we come out there and kid you not, the game is tied. They have the ball, your first head coaching first head coaching analyst. They have the ball, and we stop him and there's like thirty seconds left, maybe forty five seconds left. We stop him on third down and I take a time out, and I'm like, we're gonna make him pump the ball and then, you know, maybe depending on what happens, maybe we'll just play for over time or maybe we'll try and go score. I don't know, but there wasn't a lot of time left, less than a minute, so we take the time out. They were, They trot their punt team out. They pun it to Keyuan Malone, who ended up being a really good player for us. He gets to cold and fumbles, They recover it, They take a knee, and then kick a field goal on the like essentially the last play of the game to beat us. So there's your welcome to being a head coach moment. Yea um, but I yeah, and it happens really fast too, right, Yeah, I'm like, why would I even try that? We're not even good enough to take that time out. And this is what I'm thinking all the way home. I'm like, how stupid am I? Like, I shouldn't just been happy with overtime and see what happens in overtime. But no, you gotta take a time out. You gotta you know well, but you also you know, like I would say later on, if you didn't take the time out, people would say you didn't have confidence, you're playing for overtime whatever you know not you know, not understanding like we can fumble that that you a really good player for us and made a whole bunch of players and our team that that that won the conference championship. He was a huge player. But let's just say that not a lot of people there are not a lot of witnesses to that game because not a lot of people stuck it out through the two hour rain delay to watch. I can't imagine come back at it rain delay your poor life. So there's no covering in that stadium too, if I don't know, right, there's it's not like now you sit there like, yeah, um, you mentioned how you're trying to run the offense like TCU. So as it evolved, were you still were you calling the place? And my plan was My plan was to UM two. I knew we were going to be bad, so my thought was like, listen, I'm gonna call it. I'm gonna run it all and get it how I wanted. And as we get better than I'll be able to step further and further back. First of all, I can shelter the offensive coordinator because I can just take the brunt of us not being very good. And so I called it for three years and then my last year I turned it over to our offensive coordinator. UM I had a really good setup because Daryld Dickey, who had been the head coach at North Texas for a long time. He's at Texas A and M now was huge for our program both in the city of Memphis and for me as the former head coach. And he was a running back coach and he had titled at one point he was the offensive coordinator and then but basically he was the assistant coach and he was that wasn't That wasn't a ceremonial, Yeah, that was. He really was like the person that I leaned on a lot when it came to trying to make decisions and trying to handle situations. Um, what was the game that turned it? Was it Cincinnati? You're two? I think, I mean, now you beat South Florida. I think you're alone with your one conference wind. What was that? That something they need something? Yea. So it was kind of in her because, Um, part of the reason I took the job was it was a comfort to us A school and I felt like I could see I had seen Conference USA with s m U when I was at TCU, and I felt like, you know, we can we can build a team that wins six games and comfort us A. You know what I mean? Like, that's kind of like what I was thinking. Well, after a year, we moved to the to the Big East, which eventually became the American Conference. So we trade like Southern Myths for Louisville. We trade uh, like two lane for like Yukon, which at the time was much better than so. Um. My first year, we we win our last three games. We beat U A B which is about to drop the program, to beat Southern miss and I I think we beat too A and I don't remember, but we beat the one last three games to win four games, and I got a contract extension after winning four games, if that tells you where we were at. So we won four game, but we win our last three. And we have a quarterback named Jacob Carrom, great human being that was a transfer from Houston. Well, Paxton is red shirting. Well, the next year we take a step up and have to go play Louisville and all these people, and we're pretty good on defense, and we're not very good on offense because all of our guys are young guys. And I benched Jacob Carrom and played Paxton and we only win three games. So I go from contract extension and four games to idiot in three games playing the wrong quarterback because Jacob Caram was back, he was going to be a senior and playing this freshman, tall, skinny freshman, and we weren't very like all of our skill players were freshman too, so we weren't very good on office. But like our defense took a big step up, like we were pretty tent. We were way ahead defensively than we were office. So there's kind of those are the first two years. Well, the third year, like we have to play um and I'm like, this is not a good schedule for a team that's trying to make it smart. Was that scheduled preset or did you Yeah? That was our a D was from It was a California guy and he wanted to play U c l A for some reason whatever, so that the first play of the U c l A game was when I was like, okay, we got shot. Like it was like an RPO with a slant flat and it was like insides own and like I'm standing on the sidelines and it's the first time I thought we had a real football team, Like the way it will and Paxton pulls it and hits the receiver like right in the chest and like it happened fast. But the way I talked a little bit about how like sometimes Andy would would would like ride and throw the ball and I'd be in the box on the ball already be gone by the time, you know what I mean. It was like and that was the first player I was like, oh, like I hadn't seen it. I hadn't like I've just been lost in it. And it was like, okay, get your next call ready, justin but by the way, like we got something here. You mentioned it in your next call ready? Um? How your your place your call sheet? Um? Do you do do you do you script them out? Is it? Are you? Are you calling him as you go? Like how do you how do you as a play caller? How do you up right? And I think it's important that all it's all young play callers understand that it's up to you, right, it's how you work. Like like Garry Patterson calls the defense and he's like furious when he's calling it. That's how his mind works. Like he likes me when I'm calling it, I feel like I'm I'm like taking the A C T right, Like I wanted to be as as quiet and as focused and and paying attention to what's going on. So I changed when I was at Memphis, and it was it was a really good change for me. Was at TCU. We carried way too many plays, way too big a call sheet, way too many reps. Like it was just really huge. And that's what I tried to do at Memphis, and it was awful personally because we weren't very good, but personally because it's just too much. The best thing we did is we put a cap on the number of plays that we could use. We grouped them by category, meaning we're gonna go into this game with three ways to run the outside zone and that's it. Two ways to get the ball into the perimeter and that's it, four ways to run the ball inside, so on and so forth, like three dropback passes, four quick game, whatever it is. Then you get the r P O game in it. But anyway, it's can only total whatever that number is, sixty seven or seventy one or whatever, whatever whatever your number is. And my third year we did that and carried less plays then we'd ever carried, and as the year went along, became more successful, very successful, led the league in Russian. So how's it organized? Yes, I have starters I had when I called it starters, ten plays, normal down and distance. These are the formations I want to see. This is the place I want to run. These are the tempos I want to get to really really quickly. And then the rest of it. I have it divided by situational football. Like you know, I have eight calls for second and long. I have uh, six calls for second and short. Two of them are, three of them are shots, and three of them are just get the first down, you know, so on and so forth, so that it's uh, there's both um positions on the field, like I think that everybody should. If you get the ball in the minus one yard line, your whole football team should know what the play is gonna be like without you even calling it, because you should have ingrained in them what your philosophy is and what it's gonna look like right there, you know, just like the first player on the goal line, the balls on the plus two yard line, they should all know, like you should have covered it. It should be it should be not easy, but it should be reactionary almost best correct. Um. So, anyway, then there's situational and then and then basically areas of field. Um what's that feeling like of seeing some one tape putting it into a shot and then it plays out? I can only relate in that in basketball. Um. I I go sometimes when I speak to coaches or speak to a room full of people, you say, you know, what's the best part of coach? Yes, what's the best part of coaching everybody? And I truly believe that the relationships are incredible, right that, especially in college where a kid comes in the first time you meet him, he's like sixteen seventeen. The last time you see him, he's like he's a grown man, Scott, maybe a wife, maybe a kid, whatever, a degree like completely different. Like that is great, But the actual coaching part, let's be honest, the best part is when you tell him what to do, when to do it, how to do it. Then they do it and they score a touchdown, they hit a hit a bucket right like I there's a um. There's a style of plays called hammer and basketball. It's really European, but the Spurs brought it over. And the idea that the hammer screen is because defenses are all taught, especially in college pense now to be in the lane when the ball is on one side it actually packed screens those guys player screen or whatever, but to the week side corner. And so you're watching basketball, guys drive the base on and they throw the week's side corner and how the hell's that guy wide open? Well, there's a hammer screen that takes place because the natural defensive position, like we taught we were kids, right ball, you man, you you make the guys pay for what they're up to. Talk. So I have a I have a play it we've hammer and I remember we're in Israel and it was an exhibition game. When when going so good, and we changed some things start going and then we call the we've hammer, but we had run at end of quarter. Hey, we're gonna run it with seven seconds, Okay, hold the ball. When I get to seven, I give you the signal we go, and we'll hit the shot at one right and see you dial it all up. They do it. They hit the shot and everybody looks at you like you're the world's smartest man. It may only last for about fifteen seconds, but to me, that's the coolest part is like now they think you're God. You're like, holy shit, do that again, coach, Um, do you have a favorite Memphis especially year three memory of dolling one up? When you're like, oh, I got this one. Then it works and then everybody is all in on whatever coach calls. Yeah, you know you're right, Like, um, there's something inherently personal that makes it different when you call it as opposed to somebody else. Like I've seen guys over the years that are very mild mannered. Uh. And then like you let them call a plays in the scrimmage, okay, and they call the first plane, it gets stuffed because the right tackle goes the wrong way. And they are livid at the right tackle now, Like they haven't said a word to the right tackle in the three years they coached there. But like there's something, it's like you put a little piece of yourself out there, right, it's just a little so it's a little more personal. And then when it hits you know, it's even it's even more more personally, you know, like, um, I don't know, I can't remember one play for me personally. Um you know that that I felt like that I do remember, you know, walkthrough taking the guys over there, and again you gotta remember, like these guys have bought in. What we did have was an awesome core group of kids that we inherited. And it wasn't very many of them only about ken But how did you flip them from from hey couldn't get through two drills? Yeah, they were you know, they wanted to be like they if it had been nowadays, they would have transferred to heartbeat. Not some of them were okay, but but like there was like eight okay, I'm talking about the younger guys. There was a couple of older guys on the team that were awesome. But there was a couple of handful of younger guys that that were coming that we had totally inherited that we're just awesome human beings and pretty good football players, and they were the core. All we did was cut out all the crap around it and add to that core. That's that's what we did. And I remember there was a time in the walkthrough where I'm like Sam Craft. So Sam Craft is from Memphis. He's the first player we signed that could have actually gone to another school basically like a prep school legends in Memphis. Played basketball, also from Memphis a little bit and played football. Great mom, dad, incredible family. But Sam stayed at home to go to Memphis. And we're in a walkthrough and I'm like, listen, like the first time I'd really talked to them about bigger, bigger picture, Like we're going to scrimmage, guys, and we're in this condensed formation. Dam Krafft, you played. Tellback what are the three players we're gonna run here? And he has no idea, Like he doesn't know. I'm like, we're gonna run this this in this those are the only three plays I'm calling today in this formation. That's it. There's no reason for anybody to make a single mistake if we're in this formation, you know, it's one of those three plays. And they're like really, I'm like, I promise we're gonna run a home post today. Okay, we're in this now. Wait, let's go to this formation. Now the quarterbacks know all this stuff. They're looking at me like, coach, what are you talking about? Bout everybody else? It was like all of a sudden, there was this this bigger picture revelation of what was what was going on, and like it was like they've been included in it for the first time. You know. It was like damn dag, coach, that's that's pretty cool. Like, yeah, so we're in this formation, this this spread set. You know, we got four plays. That's it. So if you don't get the signal, you know what's one of four? Right, that's it. Like in any way, they had a good scrimmage and it was kind of like, man, this you know, we don't have a chance. Um, you did lose the Memphis How do you at that level? How do you like you saw them the game as a close game. You lost Empis game wasn't as close. She struggled offensively, right, So so how do you But how do you? What's what's the secret to keeping that level of team confident? Yeah, well I don't think they were. Um no, we lost the Old Miss and I'm plenty like it was dangerous to be on the field merchants that defense, Like that's how good they were, Like watching the film, I'm like, I mean they are they are just I mean their secondary is good there, d line is good, and I mean in our defensive played their butt off. We played them down there, and but I mean it was there was rough. It was dangerous, like they were that good. And um, if I'm not mistaken, which I wish I had this giggle in from you. But we're basically three and three. Maybe at the bye week or something like that, we we lose. We've lost. We lost Houston, but we've beat U T. Martin, I mean, excuse me, we beat the one double A, we beat uh Astin p. Yeah, we beat Austin Pe, we beat Middle Tennessee, and we beat somebody else I can't remember, Oh, Cincinnati, so Cincinnati. So yeah, we played Cincinnati then then Houston and by week maybe I'm sure, but so we my whole deal, like off the record, like not from not in front of the kids, but guys like like, we have to beat Middle Tennessee State, Like we're gonna beat Yes, we're gonna be Austin Pe and you know, we'll take our shots at the big boys with U. C. L A And Old Miss, but we have to beat Middle Tennessee State. That is the game. This is what the staff and when we did that, that was that was a check in the in the right column. And I remember saying too, we're getting ready to go play Cincinnati at Cincinnati, and I made a big deal about this game with the team, like it was our plant the flag game, like in in in like very clear somewhat vogar vulgar turns. I made clear to our team that we are going to go put the American Conference on notice with this game, like we're going to go into their house, which we're actually playing where the Bengals were playing, but we're gonna go beat them, and we're gonna take the Memphis like literally the Memphis flag and slam it in the in the fifty yard line. Now, I wasn't work. This is before Baker Mayfield and stuff, so I wasn't really worried about them actually doing it, but that was the metaphor. I mean, I had videos of uh all the old the Patriot, you know mel gets in movie where they they're rushing the hill with the American flag, Like that was the whole deal. And it was like, this is exactly what we're gonna do. And on the first play of the game, Um Cincinnati throws in a touchdown pass and I'm like, that's our point time we were here and our guys are lost, as responded, went down there and we got after him and beat them, and it was like our guys believed we were pretty good, you know, like they believe they had a chance to be good. And then we lost to Houston and that was a crushing loss because we didn't really like Houston. Houston didn't really like most of our coaches kind of had a little bit of a Texas flavor to whom we were trying to create. A Right, We're trying to give our guys some rivalry, right, I think that's a pretty good rivalry now. And we didn't beat Houston when I was there, but you know, it was the beginning of it being being pretty close. And we went to the bye week and seriously, I looked at our schedule and I was like, let's get the six win. And you know, I thought about when the kids came back from the bye week, just being about getting Bold eligible. But then I thought, you know, that's maybe selling them a little short. And I also thought, you know, um, if we do get to six wins, I don't want him to stop, you know, like I don't want him to relax. So that's when we just started with one and though and that was that was the whole thing. When the kids came back from brake, it was we're just gonna we're trying to win one game, and it's everybody talks about it now and I certainly didn't invent it, but I mean that was literally our deal. And literally we played, um we played the Yukon to kind of clinch the championship, and like that week, I finally told the guys, if you win this, you get a trophy, Like we already talked about it one time, but I'm like, you go wanted all this week, you get a trophy at the end of the game, and you'll win a conference championship. Like the very first time I was ever mentioned, and I said, and I don't hear know the word about it, you know, from here on out, but you need to know that, you know, we get we're gonna do something that nobody's ever done here if we go want to know, And that was all we worried about, was one ft in front of the other. Um, just so passion. What was your honest eval of him at the time he was going to be really be just becoming really really good, like it was obviously was getting better. He wasn't making repeated mistakes. We were more importantly, we were getting better around it, you know, like his red shirt freshman year, and he could have played better, but we didn't have people around him to help to help him. Like we weren't. We weren't mature enough, and we weren't developed enough from a skill position wise. We were basically the same on the offensive line all our ears there, you know, decent, you know, but where we made huge improvements were in the skill positions. And we've gotten better around him, and he continued to improve, you know, like he was just continuing to steadily get better and better and better. Mm hmm. Well what what was it about him that you you know, just a crazy arm Yeah, and like he's physically talented, Like he's as good athletes, especially for a guy that long as I've seen, you know, I mean, he's just I mean his hands are this big, and he can he can run and jump and and he's I mean he looks like a basketball players. He look he looked like he could go hang out with the Memphis basketball team and he didn't look like a football player in there. You know, he's just so long and athletic and um just continue to get better and like how the desire to improve. And Cornell, Brad Cornelson did a great job with him, like keeping it like I tend to get to, you know, to making it more complicated than it is, and Brad does a great job trimming all that out so that it's a digestible. And he just I mean, certainly he could throw the ball. I mean, he threw a ball his last year at Memphis that I'll never forget off, like a trick play against Bowling Green. It's like a double reverse pass. I don't know how far he threw it, but I mean our guy catches it in the back of the end zone of one foot in and it like I mean, I can close my eyes at night and see that ball traveling through the airs like something out of the movies. You know, it's incredible. Yeah, I like it right the first day, you know, even when he's a freshman and you know we're out there and he's throwing the ball across the field. It's like, you know, like starting out he made run naked and throw the ball four yards and throw it in the ground. But on the next play, you know, he's throwing the comeback across the field and it's like nobody else can do that. Um, okay, So you win the league and then without any question people are calling about you're leaving. So you know, all you want to be was the head coach. Now you've got to figure out what job do I take another job? This is the conference championship year. What was it like to decide to stay man, Yeah, it wasn't that big a deal. Like there really wasn't that much going on that people were interested in me on you know, like Kansas had an opening and I knew the a d there really well, but it wasn't It wasn't something that we were going to go down the road on and like that first year, they just it really wasn't And I'll tell you honestly, Like I didn't talk to hardly anybody about any jobs. I've never been that person, you know. I've never been that guy that that wanted to move or that was always looking for the for the other thing. I just I never Um, that's that year, certainly, there wasn't much. And in my entire time there, I only talked to one school and that was Virginia Tech. Like I never had I never had a conversation with a with another school. You know. Yeah, I'll go through your tent and they you know, there's people that have interests or whatever. And then your agent calls you says do you have any interests? And you say maybe or no or whatever. You know how all that goes and then and then you you know, you know, if there is a conversation to be had, you you know, you let your bosses know, and you know, you have a little conversation. So to take me through how Virginia Tech happened, Um, so it was kind of crazy. So the next year, um, between the between our third year and our fourth year at Memphis, we won fifteen straight games. And our last year there, we beat Old miss in the Liberty Ball and that was an awesome day. And how many people were there for that, all of them. I mean, it was a lot different than the friends and family, friends and family from the from the first game and the rain delay against Marcus, where you wanted that game called now there's now now you have to turn down people who want to it. It was pretty cool day, you know, like the day I'll never forget. Um. You know the thing that that I didn't like about that day was I remember driving home. I mean, people are just going to manners right their entire lane. Our players are entiger lane doing who knows what, you know. And I really it was an early game. I really just wanted to go home. I was pretty tired and and you know, it's part of me that wishes I had enjoyed it a little bit more. But we had a Friday game next week at Tulsa, my hometown, and I remember driving home, like almost getting sick to my stomach, thinking there's no way I can get these players ready to player on Friday against Tulsa, you know, like and Tulsa was scoring like fifty points a game. They weren't very good on defense, but um, I just I don't know, like I wish I didn'tured I wish I had. In retrospect, I shouldn't have been worried about that right then, but I was, you know. Um, But anyway, so we won fifteen straight games and then what what was hold on for was was Blanketship still Tulsa. No, Philip Montgomery was at Tulsa. Blanketship was with us that year. I got the higher coach become my last year at was on salary. No, he just needed insurance. He's like, I'm good on the salary. He's like, I just need benefits. I'm taking to the A D because I would love to get you here. And he came and it was it was really cool to spend that year with him. That is really cool. What is it like to coach at Tulsa, Well, it was terrifying. Um, you know what was really crazy was the year before Blankee Tip was at Tulsa and we'd be um and like now you feel like you've got a hand, and you know, like there's always mixed emotions about all of it, you know. But anyway, so we go play at Tulsa and um, you know, we are the toast of the town. Like I don't know what our record is we're undefeated and we're ranked and like I said, we won our last I think it was our last seven games the year before and that year we won our first eight. So like we're pretty good, and it's pretty cool to be a Memphis Tiger, you know, like for the for the first time a long time. So, I mean, we go there and I'm terrified because they are Philips has got the Baylor deal and they are They're going a million halls an hour and they won't let up. You know, they're like a basketball you know, shoot the Billy Tudson is Ou teams when I was a kid, Like, I mean, it's just NonStop like this the game last six hours. You can't relax and trying to get that point across. But it was nice. My my parents went to the game and got to you know, go back home and sleep in their own bed, which was which kind of cool. But um, I was happy to get to win because that was that was worried big time. Okay, So oh yeah, so you y're y're four, you beat you beat Old miss You guys are rolling. And then and then we we played Navy at our place, and Navy beat us and we could have played all night. I didn't matter. They were gonna kick, They're gonna beat us, like we couldn't stop them, and you know we yes, and we I knew we were in trouble. They turned and rand the pitch and like the wing back for Navy, who's supposed to be slow, you know, like beat all of our guys around the corner. You know, like they were good. That you're really good. And um, I think we made him pump once or twice. But and we needed to score sixty in that game to win the game, and we didn't. You know, I don't remember what the scores. Well plus you go, you can, but you don't have the ball. Yeah, so we lose. So what we have coming down the pipe is the league is really good this year it's Navy Houston. This is the year Houston. Um, I think beat Florida State and one of the big balls, Houston Temple with Matt Rule, who's real good and s m u. I think, well, like we we loose the Navy and we go play Houston again, the rival read that we've been we've been building trying to build in our program with Houston, and we are kicking their butt and their quarterback gets hurt and they bring in their backup and we're up I don't know what, to score seven or something like that. And we get into the fourth quarter. We score a touchdown on the first play of the first quarter to go up twenty or to go up nineteen, I guess. And I don't know for two because it's so early in the Like if it had been a little bit later in the fourth quarter, I definitely would have. But they say in the fourth quarter you should go for to in this position, and I did it. We kicked extra point to go up twenty, and uh, first of all, I thought we would be down there again like it was. I don't remember what the score was, but it was fairly high scoring. Well, long story as short, we don't make it down there again and they're going to run. We get the ball, we drive down. We're down by one, and Jake Elliott, who was one of the best kickers I've ever met in my life, he's kicked to the Eagles right now, has got like a fifty yard field goal to win the game, and he misses it and we lose. And one of the one of the one of the if not the worst locker room I've ever been in I mean just I mean guys like laying on the ground, sobbing. Just brutal, absolutely a brutal into the game and like, I mean, so many things happened that game by Anthony Miller, who's ends up being a second round draft pick wide receiver for us UM. He goes through warm ups and like he's like coming into his own. He went off against old Miss. He's standing next to me as we run out of the une. Okay, we get the ball to start the deal and Anthony is not out there, and I'm like, where is Auntie? Where is Anti? And like get Darrel, get the trainer over here, and Daryl was like coach, he pulled his hamstring. I'm like what he was standing next to me in the tunnel when we came when we came out, and he's like, I know he was over here stretching and he pulled his answer and he's done like things like that where you're like, how does this happen? Like the guy's funny, don't way. We lost that game. So now all those things are starting to go on about other jobs, Okay, Like things are getting crazy, and I'm worried about a football team because Paxton are I mean, our guys just got I mean, they're just smoked after that one. And Paxton can hardly walk all week, and we gotta go play Temple with Matt Rule, who's really good, and we've got guys that are hurt, and we've lost two in a row, and it's it's like rough. I'm like, so then there's so our kids are dealing with the fact that they just had their hearts tripped out and the fact that, um, there's all this stuff about us going on and I haven't we haven't gone down that road, like I haven't, but it's like getting to the point where like we need to we need that we need to either have a discussion or not, you know what I mean. Like it's getting to that point with other job stuff. So basically, they asked for permission, and I talked to Tom and we had a discussion about the job, and um, you know, try to figure out if that's that's what we wanted. I told him I wanted to talk to Bud in order to you know, like I wanted to talk to Bud. And so they arranged for that and and then we go to Temple and News and now our players are like, what's really like they're upset because we've lost three in a row, the three really good teams and our teams beat the crap and we want we were you know, we were ranked like whatever it was twealth in the country. Now we've we've gotten our heart ripped out and guys are beat up and they're hearing their coaches leaving and I'm not And I'm telling our guys. I'm like, guys, like if I hadn't made that decision, like I would tell you, but we haven't made those decisions. Nothing has been decided. We're still which is the truth, you know. I'm trying to figure all this stuff out, just like you guys are, you know. And then so we gotta get ready for S and U and like, our guys have hit the wall right all week at practice. I'm scared. I'm like, are these guys are gonna go play or not? I'm worried because there's a lot of stuff about the job stuff. There's a lot of and uh. We go through our entire week of practice and in our pregame meal, we usually have one coach from each side get up and talk. We have tipsummer it turns into kind of a meeting after we eat, and um, I got up at the pregame meal. I mean, I'm worried, like I don't know, Like our guys are are willful, and they're strong and they're powerful kids, you know what I mean. And I'm worried. And I stand up and said, guys, we're not gonna have guest speakers today. I mean, we're not gonna have the assistant coaches talk. Okay, I've talked to our captains okay, uh, and some of our seniors they want to talk to you guys, And I'll tell you what. We're gonna leave. So the coaches are gonna get up. We're gonna go get on the bus, okay. And if you want to get on the bus to go kick sm use ass and get on the bus with us, like I just let it. I just let him happen. Like you guys, you guys are driving the bus. How do you want to be remembered? And I don't know what happened in the meeting. I have no clue. Uh, I've never asked anybody. I don't know anybody that wasn't a player that was in the meeting. I made everybody get out, and I mean, I'm scared to death, Like I don't know if they're gonna get on the bus. Like our guys been strong enough to like say, you know, now we ain't going Yeah, And they get on the bus and we go and they beat the fire at s you I don remember what the foul score is, like sixty nine and nothing or something like that. I mean sixty three and nothing, and and you know, the next day, you know, I decided to take the beginning to take time. Um, okay, So when you're you're getting ready to replace a legend, it's really hard, right, and what people there's there's so many things. And that's that's why I want to have a start. There's so many things about that job. It's like it's like the of this job. Right the first year you're in the league, you're in KISA, you know, and you could be You're like, oh, we could do this. Next year you're in American Okay. Virginia Tech was Virginia Tech when they were in the old Big East. They play on Thursday night under the Lights Lane Stadium. They had their kind of unique niche. You know, you get there there in the A C. C. But I guarantee. You called other people in coaching and said what do you think? What was the What did people say when you said what do you think about Virginia Tech? Um? Everybody was positive, you know, Like, um, they were positive about coach Biemer. Um. The ones that had any idea about the administration, they were all positive. Um. You know, I think there was a pretty good consensus that they were probably behind. We're not probably they run from a developmental standpoint in terms of facilities and that sort of stuff, like they hadn't done as much as other people had, and behind from a staffing standpoint. But you know, it was a place that valued football. Um, that's what I liked, you know, Like in Memphis studied football too, don't get me wrong, but like it was a place that, um, that that was really really important, and UM, I viewed it as the plans to move to a small college town and raise my kids and have a chance to coach big time college football while still living somewhat of a normal life, and that that was really the centerpiece for me. Like, UM, I never really had any interest in many of the other places that provided a different type of lifestyle. And that's just me and UM, it's right or wrong or indifferent. It's just how I've always wanted to live lived my life. And I've never been there the guy that was out searching for attention or spotlighter or any of that sort of stuff. So I understood that there's responsibilities with with being the head coach that were that required to give up some of your personal life. I understood that, But I mean, I felt like this was an opportunity to me to coach big time college football and still maintain some semblance of normalcy for my children, and that that got me pretty excited. Um, Okay, now you know what you're doing because you failed and succeeded the Memphis so second time around and you get the job. Every I'm sure everybody Memphis thought there going with you, and not everybody gets did you? Did you? Did you do this? Sabing Hey, planes waiting you get on it, like, how did how did you hand first? How do you handle your current staff in terms of gontech? I told the staff that Sunday that that's what I was gonna do. I told and I'm talking about the coaches. I told the coaches. I said, I will tell you exactly where you stand with another job, Like there will not be any of this. I disappear and you won't return your phone calls. Okay, Like I have a decent idea of of what I want to do. Not everybody's going to get to go, but everybody's gonna hear it from me. No, but nobody's gonna hear it from somebody else. And then we dismissed the meeting and everybody went to their offices and I just went office to office and told and told him face to face. Um, there's one guy didn't get to He wasn't a coach, he was an administrative guy because he wasn't in his office. He was doing something else, and I didn't have something but the football coaches, I went office to office and said, I want to bring you like I'm not sure what the salary is, but I want you to know you've got a job. And Um, there's also an element of leaving some guys behind, um that you're gonna bring so that they have a chance to win the bowl game. So there was a little bit of that element too, But I just went personal person and told him um. And I think best in my recollection, everyone was definitive in terms of yes or no. I don't think there was anybody that was left in the lurch. I don't think, um, but I know I talked to everyone of him face to face. Now there was one that didn't come. Darryl Dickey didn't come. He stayed. His daughter was I think his either junior senior in high school and and Mike Norvell hired him on to stay, and which was great for him. But that's how I handled that, and then you handle it. It was the hardest meeting I've ever been in. Um. I walked into the team meeting, I said, at the front of the door room, and I mean I couldn't get the worst already know he's already out. UM. I would imagine they knew and I had to go shoot them. I had to go shoot the TV show that morning too, So I had to go shoot the TV show and then come into the staff meeting, and then we had a team meeting. I don't know if they only were and I can't remember how it all played out. I just remember standing in front of him, not being able to have a hard time talking, you know, and like trying my eyes out, and um, you know, but I didn't want him to hear it from anybody other than me, and I wanted to do it face to face and I wanted to thank them, and UM, try my best to convey, you know, some message and of appreciation and love and give them some reasonings and you know, do the best I could with it, you know, I think Again, I don't think real people who listen to this. I think that, but I think there's a good portion population to think. You guys don't care, You're just going to yeah, And it's a shame. It's like that, dude, you don't care, You're just going to get a bigger chat. Yeah, I know, And that's a shame. And like if we said before, some of that is coaches have brought that upon themselves, but I would I would argue against that what you said. So I guess here's my question. How do coaches get their voice back? I don't know, Like, I mean, there are like what frustrates me is the people that I really respect what they have to say and I agree with it all. But like I like David Shaw, Like I don't know, but I find him fascinating and highly insightful and really in it for the right respect. And I think, um, I'm not saying people ignore what David Shaw has to say, but I think we should take more. I think we should. I think I think you would carry more weight. And to be honest with you, you know, Dabbo catches hell from everybody, and um, you know, like you may not agree with everything he says, but I really think it comes from a really good place personally. Well that's that's the I think dar Ana lies the issue, right, Okay, so David Shaw, right, So here, here's what the here's what the cynic says. Even the sports talk show host says, right, and I agree with you. On David shows brilliant. Okay, he found a niche and they wanted time to cook football games. They're like, well they're not even winning now, so you know, yeah, okay, do you know how hard it is Stamford? You know, just just so Stanford and I do that show yesterday. Stamford went to ten straight n c A tournaments under Mike Montgomery. They've gone to one and like four teen years, okay, football was rolling. Now it's not these two things. And you don't have bad coaches. Jared Hawk is a very good coach. David Shah is very good coach. Maybe the landscape we're in, you know, makes it really really really hard. And oh yeah, by the way, everybody else is trying to work. But the cynic says, well, David Shaw is not winning. And then the cynic says with Debbo, well he's making eight million dollars, you know, right, and and that's crap. It shouldn't discount what he has to say because the market says we're gonna pay coaches way too much money, Like you should care cancer to make that much money, right. I agree with all of this, like I don't disagree with any of it. It's absurd, But what do you want the guy to do? You know? I just I don't know how they went it back. I don't know. I wish I knew, you know, like I really do wish I wish I know. But it's just because you're so as you point out, it doesn't happened today, and this this is not that long ago. We're talking. We're talking ten years ago, Max, And it doesn't happen now. If now it happens, you have a completely new team, that entire team leaves, you have a completed team, and you're not recruiting high school kids you're going off somebody else's roster. The whole thing has changed, and the kids aren't coming necessarily. Some are did not coming necessarily because of your school to come up because your school provides them some n I L check you know which we have We we have the emphasized the long term game of this whole, long term gain of this whole thing, and and and re emphasized short term gain. And I think there's gotta be a way to do both. There is, there's gotta be a way to get guys to get a little, to get there's right while still moving this thing towards um you know, whether you want to call it um, amateurism or whatever, I don't care, but towards an education, right, Like I don't know. Like for me personally, it's it's it's family, church and education. Those three things I think are really important. That's just me, Okay, I think they. I wouldn't tell anybody else what they think. You know that that they should make it more important in their life. That's something for me to do. But that's what I think we should focus on. And you know, if you're a public institution, you don't get to focus on church. That's fine, Okay, that's up to you as an individual. I'm gonna provide you the ways that you can develop in that way. And that's okay, I'm I'm good with it. But these other two family and school, like they're really important, and I just we're de emphasizing. It's and and we're and it's It's interesting because that the whole reason the scholarship was provided was to try and even the playing field right, so that more people from diverse backgrounds got an opportunity to get a college education in which you know, previously only a select you would get. And those opportunities are greater and greater. And yet now you have you have you have people I don't think all people. We have a lot of people that, like you said, the emphasize it. They don't realize how it opens doors. They don't realize that there's a direct correlation between your level of education and any amount of money you're gonna make the rest of your life period stop, you know, no doubt, Like I mean, the examples are infinite and are their sisters of the rule always. But I had this woman that worked in our office at Memphis. Every year I went in to get her a raise every year. Every year. They said, she doesn't have a degree, can't give her a raise. Well, that's stupid. She runs the whole She does an incredible job. You know, she's awesome with everybody. She just runs the whole thing. Not well, it doesn't mean it's fair. It's just the way it is, actually, you know, Like, it doesn't mean that because I have a degree, that I'm any smart than the guy that doesn't. It just means I was willing to do work, right, Like that's what that sheet of paper is like, you'll do things you don't want to do, okay, well, okay, fine, And it's and you know, it's a great way putting. I think it's the reason that people generally like to hire athletes, you know, is because they know, whether they're the smartest or the best, they had to do a little bit something above what somebody else is willing to do. You know, that's right. Like, I don't know, it's just I see this beautiful thing, and I don't know. There's a lot of it. I don't understand a full disclosure. I understand how in America you can tell somebody they can't turn professional. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, like I don't understand why I can't graduate from high school and said I don't want to be a professional football player. I don't. I don't understand that. Now the market may say I'm not good enough to do it, but I don't understand how we can tell them, Like why can't we give kids a choice when they graduate? How you can become a professional or you can be an amateur. You know, and you can turn professional whenever you want, after your first year, after your second year, whatever you want, but you can you can go be an amateur because the NFL this got it good, okay, Like they don't have to pay for the developmental league like Minor League Baseball or like basketball is doing like we're doing it for them. Okay, Well, like if they want to, if they want to take eighteen year olds out of high school, let them take them and let them go devlop. Okay, but your choices are you can go be a pro where you can be an amateur. And I don't know, I don't understand. I know there's reasons that that that won't work, but I don't sure understand. Well, I mean, I think you know the obvious is none of them ready to play, you know you have, and and it's too expensive to develop them, and it's to hit or miss, you know, right, right, And ultimately that's the first problem is the reason why nobody else, No, one of the reasons why I know other countries really play football has expense. I mean, it costs a lot of money to play. That's that. There's there's a there's a part of that. By the way, there's there's one last part to the why they aren't a lot. It's because it's collectively bargain because NFL players don't want more young guys. They don't want to be taking their job right. But instead we were stuck with this deal. In the college football's in wind ball like it's not a professional league and it's not an amateur league. It has a playoff and it has a bowl system. Like it's totally screwed up because it's right down the middle. Like you you can either be you can have the bowl system where you can go have a playoff. Having both makes no. I don't want to ask you this. I've never asked anybuddy on the record, and I haven't preempted uh, you know, I haven't told you about this Um, A lot of people hate bowls, right, I think bowls are wasted time. Players are now opting out of bowls to themselves the NFL. You've played in bowl game, you've played bowl games. What is there about? What? What? I have my own bullief, like my belief in value. I'll just tell you is like half the teams end up winning their last game. It's a big thing. Plus it's reward. You bring all the boosters down there, you raise money as well, and I think it has a value. I don't know if it feels as valuable to you having coached in them. Um, do what what are your feelings on bowls? He love them? I mean I think they're fun. I mean I don't know, like they usually have some activity that you never get to do in a millionaires. Right. You take some kids from UH to the Bulk Bowl in Charlotte and they put him in a freaking race car and driving around the track at a hunder and whatever. Malls. That's kind of it's really it's really like I mean like there and and on down the road like you have that. You know, obviously you have historical bowls like that that even just being there means the Rose just being there. They don't have to drive you around a track, right that, you don't have to drop you out of airplane. Just going to it's pretty cool, okay. And then you have the other ones that maybe just they don't have that prestige, but you know, have activities or things are you know, a small little reward of vacation. Maybe a kid gets to go somewhere that he's never gone before. I enjoy it. I've never been to a battle. I've never been to one. It's always better if you win the game, but I've never been to one where I said this place sucks, you know, like that there. I think they're good, but I do understand fifty of them is a lot or whatever the numbers, and like I understand that they have to be valued. The playoff inherently the values the Bowl game, Like there's no getting around that. And we all knew that was going to happen the day that they wanted a plus one. It was gonna devalue the the bull games. It's just now that we're stuck in this, I mean, we all know what whats gonna expand why are they gonna ask our opinion? Like that's the way the coaches feel like we're in a SEC meetings, Like do you guys pretend like you're asking us, like you care, Like we all know that money is gonna I think the issue, my issue with the with the expansion of the playoffs and with some of these things is we're doing every year, we're doing something to take away from UH traditions. You know. It's like we've Memphis, excuse me, Missouri in Kansas. It's a rivalry that goes back to the Civil War. Right, Missouri was a border state, Kansas was a free day and under cover of darkness, Missourians went into Lawrence and burned the town down. Like that's a rivalry. Okay, you're talking Kansas, Kansas State hundred years now Oklahoma, Oklahoma State they played uninterrupted for over a hundred years. And because and it's a big check okay. And there's other issues like nobody talks about Oklahoma, a lot of money issues within the university whatever, whatever. And I don't know if I could turn that down, but to just hey, being a meeting one day with the Big twelve and then behind the scenes they were off to the SEC and no one says anything. He's like, well, it's a bunch of money. Like, yeah, they played for a hundred years. They're the same system, you know with Oaklahoma, Okahma State. They're supposed to be brother and sisters schools Like this ain't how it works. But we I mean, even with the with U C, l A and USC leaving the Pac twelve, has anybody stopped to go like, I know they're still gonna have a game in the Rose Bowl. But the Rose Bowl died that day, like the Rose Bowl died, Big ten PAC ten died and like no one had a funeral. It's crazy. And as much as you would say, like well you're freaking out because it's your school or whatever, like no, no, I told you with Missouri in cancer would happened? Now? Is this like can you imagine if Michigan State in play? Thank you imagine or Michigan Michigan State in play? Right for one second? Of course you could imagine. No chance that that's what's actually happening. So part of it is our we just don't give a crap about anything historic. And I think, and this is again this is me my soapbox, is we haven't stopped to ask why people care and watch college football you know, we we just we're chasing We have people to chasing the dollar. Chasing the dollar. Everything is more expensive. We gotta make more money chasing the dollar. But why do people actually sit down and watch a game? Why did why do you watch game? Why do you why would you go to a game? And yeah, I get like I talked to the guys to Texas that I look, we gotta fill up dearyl Guay Royal Stadium. It's hard with Iowa State. It's not hard with l s U, with Arkansas, with Florida. I get that, okay, but there's a lot of people that you know, you've watched these teams played for years. All the kids are from about the same area. You compete against the same guys, and now we're not doing it. Now we're on your like doing college basketball. I just did a previews show for the fact. Well, you don't even worry about what high school they went to because they went to multiple high schools and went to prep schools, then they went to a college, then they went to another college. Now they landed the college. Like, it's crazy that we have no nothing historically has any sort of effect on people. It's just how can everybody make the most money the quick as possible. I mean, what are we doing? I mean, like, you're right, it's like in the in part of the promise, there's nobody in charge. There really is nobody in charge. Okay, Like and I ye know, the commissioner of the NFL gets paid Roger Goodell gets paid a lot of money right to basically make unpopular season, right to tell people know. He gets booed every year at the draft, Right, they just booze bright and he just takes it. And because he has to go make unpopular decisions, he has to go tell people know. He has to go um, suspend people or whatever, you know, all the things to go. But he runs a leak and he shoulders that. And there's nobody in college athletics or college football at least that where's that hat? Right, the n A isn't capable and outdated and hanging on for relevance, and there's nobody that can you know, they've been the punching bag for years. And I'm in favor of the collegiate model, but they've been the punching back for years. But there's nobody in charge to to wrap their arms around the whole thing and say, you know, this is how we're gonna do it. And so we just float from money grab the money grabbed from idea, the idea, to let him do this, to let him do that, to let him do that with no no consequences, and were like, what is this actually gonna look like? And you're right, nobody has ever stopping said why is this even popular in the first place? And then but then and then, and I've been defender of some of the amateurs the model, but then they do stupid ship that we were just like, huh, you know, like what, well, you can't bring you can't bring middle school kids on the campus because of recruitable student athlete. Do you think a kid in eighth grade is going to choose a school because when they were in eighth grade they got to throw a football around on the football field, Like what are we what are we doing? Who gives this ship? Who can? All? Right, so let's get back. You're taking Virginia. And they told you you gotta keep Bud Foster. Right, No they didn't, No, they didn't, you know they they so you can make the choice, and I mean I wanted to keep Bud Like this wasn't. It wasn't forced on me by any means. But also like there's a little bit of understanding, Like, Okay, I mean, if you want your first act to be to let Bud foster gentleman, you can go do that if you like, but you better stop people. And I viewed it. I didn't even view it like that. I viewed it as a positive. I viewed it as the opportunity to coach, you know, with Bud, and and like it was a benefit as long as I felt like we could get along, you know, Like that's why I wanted to talk to him, because I felt like, you know, as long as we don't have to be exactly on the same page. But this couldn't be an issue, right, This couldn't be a you know, a divisive issue. As long as I felt like it was gonna be a divisive issue, I thought it was a bonus. So you get there, do the press conference? Uh. What what was the place like in comparison to TCU, Uh, in comparison to what you thought it would be? Like? Um, I had a beautiful, beautiful indoor and um, really nice, beautiful stadium in a beautiful part of the country. I mean by far, of course I'm a flat lander, but by far the most beautiful place I've ever it's still water with like hills and freeze. And because when it's i mean every the campuses in immaculate, right, yes, and when and it all looks the same. And when it snows it's a blast. You know, it snows twice a year and there's hills everywhere. People are sledding all over the place. I mean it's really it doesn't get hot, Like the climate is incredible. Like it's just really in a really neat place. Um, but we were we were behind facilities wise, and we're behind staffing. Um, pretty dramatical. Why like Saban has this incredible staff right and and that's like the model for everybody again outside are looking at why do you need the numbers the volume of staffers? What is that? How does that benefit that? Yeah? Well, I mean I've never been one that's wanted quite what they've got. I don't know how you keep tracking at all. But um, you know there's an element to basically people that can handle recruiting that's both handling UM prospects on campus. Do you think about a big game. You've got hard fitting kids in the campus with their families. I mean, it takes a big staff to handle that sort of stuff. The other part of it is disseminating information. You have the transfer, you basically have free agency in high school um evaluation. So you have two arms. It's like the NFL. You have two arms of the scouting department now that you need to evaluate, you know, not exactly twice as many kids, but at least a lot more with the portal in the high school day. And the other part of the high school evaluation is it you know, before the Internet, it was basically regional, but now you go, you're a pretty kid from anywhere. You know, you can access this film, you can talk to him. Like, I'm not saying you should recruit kids all over the country, but you can certainly evaluate and see kids from from all of it. So it takes a lot of people that disseminate that information. And then you know, with what Nick's got or coach Sabans got on the coaching side of off the field, I mean, he basically got a whole nother department there that scouts ahead of time, that that works on the future opponents that you know, does a tremendous amount of work. So what did you have for the coaches ahead of what did you have to add that you didn't have? Well, we had two recruiting people and then like my whole deal was let's slowly add these add these pieces, you know, But it became pretty apparent after I was there for the a couple of years that we needed to fire. We had to fight the front on two two on two fronts. We had to fight the facilities front and the staff in front. It wasn't like we just had to do one or the other. We started off with the facility peace and tried to slowly add the staffing piece. And then my last couple of years there, we were really trying to rapidly excrode grow the staffing. What was wrong with facilities, Well, they were just outdated. They were redoing the lobby um. But in our time there, we redid the team room. When you did the position meeting rooms, we didn't redid the weight room. Um. You know, next they'll do the locker room. We read the player's lounge. I mean, all of those things needed to be done. You know. As soon as we got that we have brand new dorm um that we needed that you know was severely outdated. So you get there with its team like the team was awesome. I'll tell you what it was in a nutshell. We had a lot of really good older players the younger The younger players on our team we're not we're not very talented and mostly of low character. But the older players were studs. I mean talented, um, hard working, high character. I mean they were. They were really awesome. But the last couple of classes were not. They're good. So so you walk in the door, okay, and now remember the first time around, you want to do everything just like Gary did it at TCU, and you want to do it yourself. And I got it, and you guys just follow my lead I got second time around, How were you all similar? Probably? You know, like, um, you know, I you know, I thought the team after you know, seeing the team I met individually with each player, I got sort of a feel for for where they were at, and um, you know what we needed to do messaging, you know, down the line. You know, when they came back from Christmas break, you know, Frank was still there. They were preparing for the bull game when I was there, so I was basically just trying to stay out of the way. Um, and you know, get a chance to watch practice and meet with the kids a little bit. What's that like, Oh, it's weird. You know. Like I had a team meeting and it lasted like three minutes. I was like, your focus needs to be twofold. You need to you need to finish to see this semester academically the best that you can. And you need to send coach Beam around here with a win. Those are the two things you need. Like, don't worry about the new head coach, Like, you need to go get those things done. We'll meet individually and then you go home over break and then when we come back, you need your aid to work basically. So it was it was cool to get to watch a little bit of practice and that sort of stuff. It was miserable to watch the Memphis team playing the bowl game. That was where my heart was still, you know, with those guys, and that was an excruciating experience watching that. But um, yeah, so we went about trying to recruit, get a handle on recruiting, Like it's just there's just so much, so much stuff, Like it was just to change regions that that dress, it's brutal it's really hard to start with, you know, like it's really really hard, and you need to hire some guys with good with good connections in the region, but you don't need to hire them just because they're regional guys like you know, and I made plenty of mistakes staffing wise, but just because the guys from a region doesn't mean he should he's a good coach and um, but it's hard to get your hand on because you know, none of the guys are currently pretty you know. It's one thing. It happened to me really twice, Like when I went to Memphis, I didn't know any of the guys because there weren't any kids from Texas there. When I went to to Virginia Tech, there were no kids from Mississippi, Alabama, you know that sort of stuff. Um, you know what surprised me was Virginia Tech was a little bit uh closer to a northern school than I thought. I don't know if that makes sense, but like they're in my mind it was. I know this sounds like oversimplifying things, but it was a southern school. It's it is Tia, but I mean there's a lot of kids from Pittsburgh and you know New Jersey and you know Maryland, you know, a little bit different part of the country than I kind of associated it within my mind with Atlanta, with you know, getting to Charlotte Atlanta. Yes, like that was kind of my association with it. And it's really a good location and that you can't do both. It's kind of in the middle, but it was different to it where it's it's not you can't it's not South, it's not the North, it's not the Midwest. It's yeah, it's kind of yeah. Um your first game Bait Liberty, which was for now Liberty is not what it is now. But they're all there's They're like thirty minutes away, Um Lane Stadium. I've been there for understand man, your first time a little a little different walking out. But you're the guy who replaces Frank Beamer. You're the first coach outside of Frank Beamer to be on that sideline. What do you remember was that? Like what was really cool? I mean I got a great a great fan base, a fan base understands football. My fan base and supportive, A fan base that shows up to the game. You know, some teams fans show up to the game to be entertained. Right, Okay, show me something, all right, now, that's all right. That's these people show up to say how can we help you win? Right? Like they're there to actively participate in the football game. And it's really cool. And um, that was awesome, you know. And and coach was great coaches in our neighborhoods, you know, like his wife was fantastic, And um, replacing him has nothing to do with him, you know, It's got to do with all the other either people or things or operandi that that need to be massaged or moved around. But um, it was an honor. That's how I felt. You know, I still feel that way. You know, your second game, I believe you're a game. You did that Bristol Motor Speedway deal right that Tennessee game, and it's the weirdest set up. There's a race card track. You know, you got like a hundred and fifty thousand people at the game. Um, what what? And obviously lost the game? So I'm sorry to bring up a game which you know, the second quarter. I'm sure halftime was fun, um, but what what was there? React? You know, because again, like you said, replacing frame Biemer, it's not the hardest far as were coach. But and they hadn't been great in a while, right, it had been five or six years since they had double digit wins. Um, But it's the first time you'll lose a game, and it's a game that everybody's watching. How did you handle critique of you know, because when you lost earlier Memphis, nobody gave a ship. Now you lose earlier for gene Tech, even though they hadn't been winning, there's still the you lost the Tennessee in front of a hundred fifty peop. Yeah, it was the weirdest game I've ever been a part of. Like, um, like it was like too big for everybody, you know what I mean. It was just like even our equipment guys had our Friday workout gear all screwed up, Like it was just like too big for Like it was weird. Like I remember standing on the sidelines, like looking into the stands and not being able to tell if there was an actual person in that seat or not. I couldn't tell, like that's a far away they were like it was just a blob and um, we I mean we jumped out on them and then we like panicked. It was like I was shocked at how because we had a good squad, like Frank left us that upper class deal. They were good players. Um, I'm like, I'm just kind of shocked at like how we panicked and like it's like we've we felt we were freaked out that we were winning, and then we committed a bunch of penalties and we turned the ball over and we acted like an emotionally insecure team and a selfish team. And I was shocked, like that's not who I thought that we were, you know, like I really, Um, I was mad at myself that I hadn't seen that beforehand, you know, that I hadn't seen that, and we had a rough Sunday afterwards. I mean it was pretty clear, like I mean, we took penalties, we did we played selfishly and panicked, and um, I was really disappointed. First of all it myself that I hadn't seen that ahead of the time. And then so like whatever people thought or said, I don't really care, like I'm in the middle of doing this work, you know, And um, for me, it was like, how do we diagnose the team to get this out of them? Because that's not winning, that's a real thing. So when when a coach says like, hey, I don't pay attention to that stuff, right, that's that's a that's a real thing. I don't know how you can. Like I do think there is an element of being aware of what's going on that you need to have right like it. I mean, I'm sure there are coaches that that do it like both ways. But I've known coaches in basketball or in football that read everything and it drives them knots. I'm like, dude, what are you doing to yourself? You know? Like you but there there, you know. And then there's the the Bill Snyder that says he didn't even know it was Halloween or whatever. You know, he's been in there working so hard he doesn't even know, you know. I think there's an element of understanding, like somebody needs to tell you what's a little bit going on. But getting in the middle of all that stuff is kind of productive. It your tenure. There's interest because it's not like it was ever bad like you had the third year you had you had a strategy lost Quarterer up right, That's when it it spiled in a little bit, But it wasn't like it wasn't like you were like two and nine. It wasn't like there were all kinds of off the field issues. There was no It's just you couldn't turn the corner right, you couldn't. Um. So here's what happened. Right. So, like I said, our first two years we were pretty good. Now our second year, you know, we had two receivers that leave for the NFL Draft early, and the quarterback leave for the NFL. Like um who had an incredible first year, Garon Evans. If you look up best quarterback year in the history of Virginia techas Girond Evans, it's not it's not Tyrod Taylor. It's not like vic draw. I mean, he was incredible and he turned pro and the two receivers turned pro with them. And the next year we still had all those guys from Frank on defense and we were loaded on defense, and we were not very good on offense. And UM, I remember meeting with the a D and saying, like, listen, our program is not in very good shape. Like we've won nineteen games in two years, and people want me to take other jobs. And you know, we we were partly popular right now, But I'm just gonna tell you, like I what the way this affords me to live my life. I'm interested in staying. I'm not interested in going to these other places. But I'm worried because our facilities aren't very good. In our staff, thing is not very good. And by the time we get all of that fixed, people are gonna be tired of hearing from me. Because I said, because our program are young people in our program are We're like, we don't. We've got a real issue coming down. My exact words were, you didn't hire me for the last two years. You hired me to get you through what's about to happen, because it's about to be rough. And so that next year, that third year, we played a bunch of young people. We were very we're very good, and and then um, then nineteen hits okay, and it's it's Blood's last year, and we're pretty good again. Okay, we end up eight and five, and I'll give you the worst word in English dictionary, but we we lose to Virginia. You know, essentially the last play of the game. They have a really dynamic quarterback that gave us a lot of problems we have. We lose on essentially the last player of the game in the Bowl game against against Kentucky, they hold the ball for eight and a half minutes in the fourth quarter to score on essentially the last player of the game to beat us in blud Foster's final game with a receiver playing quarterback. But we are better. Yeah, Handon Hooker is playing quarterback. Okay, Like we benched the guy that started. We put Hindon in and Handing is the savior of the football team. And he's talented, he's smart, he's handsome like he is, he is the guy. Okay, and then uh, COVID hits and it was it was like we had everybody coming back. Our program was now in good shape. Okay, I turned you know, Baylor wants to talk, which I made mistakes with all that, but um I made I made more than my share mistakes going around. But like we're starting to get facilities built, we're starting to get staffed it. We have the entire football team back, and I'm fired up. And then COVID and it was it just we couldn't Yeah, we just we couldn't handle it. I don't know if anybody's built to handle that thing. You know, it's just well like administered, like from a university standpoint, it was I'm not saying that we failed anybody, and nobody died, but it wasn't set up to succeed, and we had very little help. And our medical people were incredible. They worked their fingers to the bone during that deal. But um, some of our some of our players that we loved and cherished, and like, some of their attitudes changed. You know, things were happening across the country and some of their demeanor and attitude towards what we were doing changed, some of them. It was just like and then we struggled a little bit, and you know, we played some games quite honestly, Doug, that we shouldn't have played. I mean, we trieded teams out there that had no business, Like we were too thin. COVID was by the end of the year. By the first of the year, it was like we got to find a way to play. By the end of the year, everybody, somebody had sniffles. People are canceling games right like they were just trying to get through the season. But not us. We sold her down and it hurt us. Like they're gonna keep score and those those games are gonna count, so you know, you better better not take the field unless you're fully ready. And we took the field when we shouldn't have. Um, okay, if you could do it. You mentioned the mistakes. What's the mistake you wish you had back? Oh? I made a lot of staffing mistakes. I really did. Um, you know, I just I am not talking for anybody that cares. I am not talking about Bud Foster. Okay, that's the least the last thing that I'm talking about. But there was a lot of things I could have done to help us recruiting that I didn't do until it was too late. That um, that would have really really helped us out, that I sat on or didn't make decisions on or just you know, for whatever reason, was afraid to to really to make those decisions because of other pressures that I either real or manufactured that I yeah, I should have just I should have just done it. You know. Um, what's it like to get let go? Oh? It's no fun, like you know, but you know how it is to like, at least for me, like I still have this romantic view of my home and my wife and my three girls, and and that I'm just like protector of them, you know. And uh, you know that's the part that I mean, it sucks. But um, you know, you probably go through all the emotions of being angry and whatever. And you know, for me, I've used this time to think about what I did wrong, you know, like I didn't I could have handled the media in a better way, you know what I mean. I could have let people see who I really was. I should have had somebody there. Why didn't you? Actually, why didn't you? I I don't know. I became pretty um reserved and extremely neutral and a little bit shut off. Part of it was my own fault, like I had there's some people I really didn't like, and that's my that's on me. That's not the you know, that's on That's on me. And but how how could you don't know? How would you handle differently? Would you tell them? Would you make sure they went part of around the program? Like, yeah, I think I should. You know, I think there's there's a couple of things. There's you know, there's leadership up the chain of command that I should have done a better job of. You know, um, managing up as hard. They don't teach you how to manage up, I think, really well, managing up is not something that that that that that takes a while to figure out and I don't and it's time consuming and energy draining, and you know, I got to the point where I don't want to do it, and um, you can do that. You just gotta win a lot of games. I don't no doubt I and I got tired. There were some changes on the staff you know above us that in my opinion, hurt hurt us, and um, without getting all all the way into it, you know, there were some relationships there that we're kind of productive. Um, I don't know, how can it change those? Um? I'm interested in being aligned with people of similar values that I have and if they don't have it, it's kind of hard for me. But um, I should have done a better job externally, no question. And you know, like I'm not one that's ever wanted to tell people what I was doing or whatever, but we should have had somebody there to tell a story a little better. And this is like if I could, if I could have grabbed you then you know, uh it and told you all this stuff. It's like the reason I coaches you this all the time. They get into a spot where they're not comfortable whether it's location or whether the program is whatever, and they do. They kind of become they don't want to offend anybody. They don't. But the reason, one of the reasons for your rise and the reason you're only good in coaching if you have a great personality. None of these guys are any good. It's just getting to it. It's the same thing. Honestly, it's the same thing. There's a friend of mine, Dave Revston, works with the Big ten Network. We used to have this guy who worked with this ESPN. We used to mess with them, say, hey, man, you gotta held of personality. You should bring it out on television every now and again, right right, Like guys in television, they get on television and then they become some caricature of what they really were. Were like, dude, you got the job not because you're on their tape. You got the job because you sat in the room. And they're like, I like this guy. I want to hire this guy. The reason that you're in football is because you can hang out around a bunch of football. Yes, you know more than other people, but you get it because your personality. We're on the people business, and it's interesting that a lot of coaches that maybe if they don't trust their surroundings or they're afraid of their words being parsed, but until they get to that Spurrier level right where you can say whatever the hell you want. Whatever the hell you want is you won so much football games whatever. It's hard to let people in. But if you let people in and they feel like they know your dog's name, your kids and what makes you tick and Murray State and all this other stuff that you become, you become a more tangible person that it's harder to it's harder to care about not converting a third and two you know what I mean when you know somebody, yeah I know, and it totally And the more when the more withdrawn I really became. And it wasn't because I didn't like people, you know, it was just like you become so concerned with everything that you do, say like how is this going to be? In term? Like I just like you're so measured on everything that you're really going your whole year and not saying anything. And it's like like those guys would come up to me and they'll be like, man at the A c C meetings, when you sit down with with all of us. You're so relaxed and and and fun to be around him, Like, you know, I don't know if they say it's fun, but you know, you're relaxed and you know, you're kind of yourself and you know, not like that the rest of the rest of the time. And I'm like, well, yeah, I know, guys, but it's like it was just hard for me to take that leap if I had. If I ever do it again, or I do it again, I'm not gonna worry about it, you know, like I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna be myself, Like I'm not gonna adult into the you know, I'm not gonna go into politics on a Tuesday. But like I was that way with the team to like if you if like I had a couple of kids from Memphis come to our practices at Virginia Tech and they're like, what are you doing. I'm like, I can't be like that anymore, you know, like because I mean I mean Memphis, Like if you ever talked to any of the kids that fight first, and I mean we stepped on the field and it was but but the kids were tough ass kids there, and like it was totally different at Virginia Tech. Like just it just was and I lost my identity as a coach. I lost what I got, what I was good at. And you know, we weren't. We weren't as good as we could have been. Like our people and say whatever they want. Our program the last couple of years was in good shape. We should have won more games and we did it. And you know, part of it was quarterback play, and part of it was recruiting, and part of it was all kinds of different things, part of his mentality. But we had you know, the last couple of years, part of it was COVID or whatever. I'm not going to use this, but the last three years, like we were. We were in a much healthier spot than our than our records. All right, last thing, last thing, UM, give me the if if you could close your eyes said in five years, this is what I'm doing, this is how I'm doing it. In five years, I don't know, UM, I in five years, i'd like to be involved in in sports somewhere. And I don't know if that's UM. I don't know if in five years that's still coaching or if that's UM. If that's if that's helping a program some way, or if that's helping young people in some way, like I think there's this void of education that we have an opportunity to influence young people with that we can use sports. It's like, you know, Hoosiers is not actually about basketball, right, It's you know, Rudy is not exactly is not actually about football. It's about all these lessons you learned. And um, so you know, I hope that I'm finding a way, either as a coach or as a mentor or a teacher or whatever the label is, to help some group of young people understand and value the things that I think, through forty six years, um, are actually important. Not that Twitter tells you're important, but that I think are actually important. And hopefully it you know, you see that those things eventually are important. Um okay, but you you didn't. You don't seem like you're dying to get back in coaching. I guarantee we lost your job. Is plenty of people have reached out, want to run my offense? Hey you want to work my Yeah, well why take this time to step away? Man? Instance, First of all, Alas who emotionally wasn't ready like I mean, I don't. I'm not really like a sweet and cuddly guy, but I'm just being honest. Like, emotionally, I was not ready to get get back and I had some conversations with people, and you know, they were ready to move on on some head coaching jobs and and I just told him, I said, I can't. I can't be ready to do that next week. And there's just a process I needed to go through. It's been great for me that my team is no longer the number one team in this house. That it's uh, you know, my fifth grade daughter's Lady Diva basketball team or my fourteen year old club volleyball can you or my or my third graders wreck volleyball team, like those are the most important teams and that's the US. And if you ask my kids, they'll tell you they miss Heaven and they miss my team. But um, I'm enjoying being a part of their team. And um, you know, I if the right people that I'm aligned with come along, I'm talking about that we have similar values and um, it's in the right you know, look, all the things kind of line up. I'm more concerned with who I'm paired with and who I'm teamed with and I am the size of the waper and if those things come along, then I'll be darned interested to go down the road in that in that direction. Um, just to see see if I'm getting back in the give me one kid. We're gonna wrap this in one kid who because I do think that the whole process is what's important to you, right, one player like this. This is the guy who I brought in Memphis TCU. Even go back to Illinois State or DT and you should see what he is now. And it may not be because of what you did, but because of the person that you saw and the process that he went through. Yeah, I mean that's you know. For me, the first one that comes to my mind is Joseph Turner. Joseph Turner played telec for US at TCU. I was the running back coach and then became the coordinator. And I think it was because Joseph he's a head coach over in Fort Worth now. Actually, I we signed one of his players at Virginia Tech. He's playing at Virginia Tech now, and I'm just telling you he came to Virginia Tech because Joseph went in there and said coach Flinte cares about what's right, and for me it was I don't know that I helped Joseph do anything other than I listened, and Joseph had so many things. You emotional he was. He was never on a list, He was never in trouble. But you know he always kind of in his heart wanted to go back home. You know, he was always homesick, or he was always didn't like store, or he didn't like whatever. And like he's coaching other young people now right Like he's got somebody in his office right now saying I want to quit, or I want to go home, or or this is too hard, or this stinks, or my mom's not doing well or whatever it is. And I hope that there's was one second of that interaction that he thinks of all those conversations that we had, you know, that help him with the next generation of kids, that that struggle with whatever it is it's out there. If if Hennon wins the High Smool Trophy, well, well what would you feel emotionally? I'll be happy for him. There's not a better family out there. His mom is daddy, brother, sister, and he's a good kid. Well, I'm telling you, and he is talented and it was never about that. There were some things that happened in his time there that I think he's you know where. I hope that he's um gotten even down. It feels good about and Josh hypeldersners a tremendous amount of credit for what he's done. It's kind of an interesting deal. I was thinking about. This is like Josh hyperl Winston National Championship as a transfer quarterback, Like, but John Blake had been there and recruited some really good players and then stoops after two years when I said, hypool is gonna transfer quarterback? But the previous coach had recruited some good players, and now he's like, is it gonna repeat itself? It looks like a mine because there's no slowing them down right now. But um, that's a long way of me saying I'll be I would be thrilled for him and his family, and I'm happy that he's found the balance and what it is that he's that he's looking for and ultimately having great success. If people ask how you are right, and you know, Eric, you know, and and like you said, there's different stages of it. How would you characterize if you're being honest with people and you run walk into a football guy, you know, you have a volleyball game and you see, you know, one of the TCU s MU coaches they got a daughter that's in volleyball and they go, hey, man, how are you doing? What's your ound? Stansford? Yeah, I'm great, and um, I'm excited about whatever comes next. I don't really know what it's going to be, right, Um, it'll be it'll be something, but it doesn't have to be anything, which is kind of cool. Um, but I'm really happy right Like, my kids are really important to me and they have sacrificed a lot um because of my profession. They've got to do some cool things too, but they but they but they've sacrificed a lot and for me to be a part of it and is pretty rewarding for me. And we'll see how it goes and will adapt and adjust with whatever happens in the future. But I'm I'm awesome. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate all this time and the the insight that so fewer will ever provide. And I would tell you that when you get that opportunity again, like if you just open, if you just you like help. No, that's the whole thing, right, It's finding a place. It's no different to my job. Right, finding a place where you can be yourself. And like you said, the alignment with with people who are aligned think the way you think. Like that's the whole deal. And but there's no doubt in my mind that that's one of the elements that was probably missing at times of Virginia Tech because this is who we are, and you know that's that's what wins people as what winds. Anyway, I really appreciate it. I'm gonna hit you up when I get to Dallas and we'll break bread and pro awesome. Please, dude, I appreciate you asking. It's my pleasure. And if you come to Dallas and don't hit me up, I'll be paid. I will. I will. I will make sure because it's your talents that means you by the meal. That's the way it works. That sounds good. Thanks. I know, Look, I know that was a lot, but man, I can't think. I can't think Coach Wente enough. And we're not like boys. We just become friends and we I think some of the things in life and coaching and sports were aligned on and you know, it's one of those people you meet along your path and you I like and I respect him. Now, of course I called my friend. I really like and respect him, and I think you do too. I wonder when he'll and where he'll be on the sideline, but I'm glad he's found balance on time with his kids during his at least year away from coaching. So my thanks to Justin point reminded the Doug Otlip Show daily three to five Eastern. There's the in the Bonus podcast, which is unfiltered one hour of sports talk that drops every day for the third hour that's between five and six, but you can always pick it up on your I Heart radio app or Fox Sports treat dot com or wherever you download this podcast. Um, a little more hoops on your way coming. But if you like it, make sure you tweet it out, put it out on Facebook, on Instagram, whatever. Be sure to review it, subscribe, rate, review, downloaded, just make it part of your day. My thanks to you for listening. My thanks to coach Monday for joining me. That was really good. Three parts. You learned a lot about a man, a lot about uh college football, and about how things actually happened even if they're not reported fully, and how they happen right. It was fascinating stuff. Thanks for listening. I'm Doug Gotlie. This is all the number, temper, temper, temper, temper,