You're listening to a Tenderfoot TV podcast.

You're listening to a Tenderfoot TV podcast.

Girls.

Girls.

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the authors and participants and do not necessarily represent those of iHeartMedia, Tenderfoot TV, or their employees. This series contains discussions of violence and sexual violence. Listener discretion is advised. Previously on Algorithm, I spoke with a caller who told me about Darren Vond's ruse and her theory about his motivation.

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the authors and participants and do not necessarily represent those of iHeartMedia, Tenderfoot TV, or their employees. This series contains discussions of violence and sexual violence. Listener discretion is advised. Previously on Algorithm, I spoke with a caller who told me about Darren Vond's ruse and her theory about his motivation.

His mom had to be everything about what he went out and kieled.

His mom had to be everything about what he went out and kieled.

And I asked Bond's lawyer, Guiko Kasich, what led Von to change his mind about the death penalty.

And I asked Bond's lawyer, Guiko Kasich, what led Von to change his mind about the death penalty.

From the very beginning is and when death I want death? I want death. And then all of a sudden, about.

From the very beginning is and when death I want death? I want death. And then all of a sudden, about.

Three days, four days before we cut the play, he changed his mind.

Three days, four days before we cut the play, he changed his mind.

I hoped that Vond might now be open to confessing to more murders, so I sent him a letter, and months later I received a response from Vaughn where he agreed to an interview. I, Darren D. Vaughn would like to offer you a deal. You would have to write a report of the corruption that's ongoing at the Wabash Valley correctional facility, but when I contacted the Department of Corrections, they told me he wasn't interested. From iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV, this is algorithm. I'm ben Keebrick. I think beyond a new confession from Vaughn, one of the best chances we have of connecting him to additional crimes is DNA. Because of backlogs in DNA testing across the country, I wondered if police had ever checked for DNA evidence associated with the cold cases Hargrove had identified, or with other unsolved murderers or sexual assaults in the area. I came across an article from the Northwest Indiana Times that in twenty eighteen, Lake County, Indiana, had found over two hundred untested rape kits and made plans to test them. I was curious what came of that effort. The article mentioned one of the people involved was Lake County Deputy Prosecutor Nadia Wardrop, so I reached out to her for comment. Wardrop is one of four female deputy prosecutors who in twenty eighteen were brought in to reform the way crimes like sexual assault were handled. When I emailed Wardrop, she told me that she wanted to talk, but said she couldn't do so without permission and forwarded my email to their PR person. I looped back a week later and she told me she still hadn't gotten to go ahead, but recommended I contact the fair Haven Rape Crisis Center. It's a nonprofit group that was also involved in Lake County's initiative to test their untested rape kits. I called there and spoke to Becca Emerson.

I hoped that Vond might now be open to confessing to more murders, so I sent him a letter, and months later I received a response from Vaughn where he agreed to an interview. I, Darren D. Vaughn would like to offer you a deal. You would have to write a report of the corruption that's ongoing at the Wabash Valley correctional facility, but when I contacted the Department of Corrections, they told me he wasn't interested. From iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV, this is algorithm. I'm ben Keebrick. I think beyond a new confession from Vaughn, one of the best chances we have of connecting him to additional crimes is DNA. Because of backlogs in DNA testing across the country, I wondered if police had ever checked for DNA evidence associated with the cold cases Hargrove had identified, or with other unsolved murderers or sexual assaults in the area. I came across an article from the Northwest Indiana Times that in twenty eighteen, Lake County, Indiana, had found over two hundred untested rape kits and made plans to test them. I was curious what came of that effort. The article mentioned one of the people involved was Lake County Deputy Prosecutor Nadia Wardrop, so I reached out to her for comment. Wardrop is one of four female deputy prosecutors who in twenty eighteen were brought in to reform the way crimes like sexual assault were handled. When I emailed Wardrop, she told me that she wanted to talk, but said she couldn't do so without permission and forwarded my email to their PR person. I looped back a week later and she told me she still hadn't gotten to go ahead, but recommended I contact the fair Haven Rape Crisis Center. It's a nonprofit group that was also involved in Lake County's initiative to test their untested rape kits. I called there and spoke to Becca Emerson.

So, my name is Becca Emerson, and I am the anti trafficking coordinator at fair Haven Rape Crisis Center.

So, my name is Becca Emerson, and I am the anti trafficking coordinator at fair Haven Rape Crisis Center.

It turned out that Becca was actually familiar with the podcast.

It turned out that Becca was actually familiar with the podcast.

Can I ask what podcast this is? I'm a big podcast listener, like to check out.

Can I ask what podcast this is? I'm a big podcast listener, like to check out.

So it's called Algorithm.

So it's called Algorithm.

Oh my god, I listened to your podcast.

Oh my god, I listened to your podcast.

I was just listening to the one.

I was just listening to the one.

Oh my god. I'm sorry. Now I'm like all Star starts.

Oh my god. I'm sorry. Now I'm like all Star starts.

So when I was looking into this stuff, it looked like in twenty seventeen, there was this statewide initiative to look into untested rape kids.

So when I was looking into this stuff, it looked like in twenty seventeen, there was this statewide initiative to look into untested rape kids.

Yes, that is correct. So the statewide initiative was a voluntary initiative put forward by our state to see how many untested kits we had. Because back in twenty seventeen was when the discussion at a nationwide level of the backlog.

Yes, that is correct. So the statewide initiative was a voluntary initiative put forward by our state to see how many untested kits we had. Because back in twenty seventeen was when the discussion at a nationwide level of the backlog.

Was starting to happen. So this was a big hot topic, and Indiana got on.

Was starting to happen. So this was a big hot topic, and Indiana got on.

Board and said, we need to test our kids.

Board and said, we need to test our kids.

And we need to see how many we have to do that.

And we need to see how many we have to do that.

So there was this initiative. It was not mandatory, and I believe ninety one out of our ninety two counties did participate.

So there was this initiative. It was not mandatory, and I believe ninety one out of our ninety two counties did participate.

In Lake County was one of them.

In Lake County was one of them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Then I think when I was looking through the report, you know, they asked for all their jurisdictions to report, and it looked like maybe not all of them had.

Then I think when I was looking through the report, you know, they asked for all their jurisdictions to report, and it looked like maybe not all of them had.

Yeah, Lake County did not have all of our jurisdiction's report.

Yeah, Lake County did not have all of our jurisdiction's report.

I do know that some of them did.

I do know that some of them did.

And I do have those numbers, but not every jurisdiction in Lake County participated.

And I do have those numbers, but not every jurisdiction in Lake County participated.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you happen to know which ones didn't or not?

Do you happen to know which ones didn't or not?

Off the top of my head. I do know that.

Off the top of my head. I do know that.

Hammond Police Department had a pretty high number, one of our highest cities in our county.

Hammond Police Department had a pretty high number, one of our highest cities in our county.

But I mean, we have.

But I mean, we have.

I think fourteen different municipalities in our county. We're the second largest county in the state. So in twenty seventeen, Lake County came together with our sexual assault Response team with our Prosecutor's office and said, we need to test every single kit. We need to test all of them going back, and we need to test every kit going forward.

I think fourteen different municipalities in our county. We're the second largest county in the state. So in twenty seventeen, Lake County came together with our sexual assault Response team with our Prosecutor's office and said, we need to test every single kit. We need to test all of them going back, and we need to test every kit going forward.

According to the audit, Lake County identified a total of two hundred and fifty seven untested kits and they determine that two hundred and thirty eight of those kits should be tested. So out of this two hundred and thirty eight kits, how many of those kits have been tested?

According to the audit, Lake County identified a total of two hundred and fifty seven untested kits and they determine that two hundred and thirty eight of those kits should be tested. So out of this two hundred and thirty eight kits, how many of those kits have been tested?

Now?

Now?

All of them we had, Like I said, I know I can speak for ham And Police Department for sure because I spoke to that detective directly a while ago about it. They were taking ten kits every week to be tested until their backlog was done. And within the first year after rape kit reform was passed, ham And Police Department had cleared their backlog. So all two hundred and thirty eight have been tested as of now.

All of them we had, Like I said, I know I can speak for ham And Police Department for sure because I spoke to that detective directly a while ago about it. They were taking ten kits every week to be tested until their backlog was done. And within the first year after rape kit reform was passed, ham And Police Department had cleared their backlog. So all two hundred and thirty eight have been tested as of now.

And when you say taking ten kits, is that they're like driving them to the lab where they do the testing or yes.

And when you say taking ten kits, is that they're like driving them to the lab where they do the testing or yes.

Sir, every person who has possession of that kit, it needs to be documented who had it and when, so they have to personally drive that kit to our state lab, which is about forty five minutes away. So now what happens when somebody reports in Lake County? The law enforcement agency who is handling the case now has seventy two hours to pick up that kit from the medical facility where it was done, and then the lab tests all kits that come in on a first come, first serve basis. So sometimes it may take five to six seven weeks for the kit to be tested, but every kit is tested now. And now our entire state has adopted a tracking system, so when a victim is in the hospital and getting that exam done, they are given a pin number so that anytime the victim can go into the database and see where her kit is so they can look and see, Okay, it was picked up by law enforcement. Okay, now it was dropped off at the lab. Okay, now the lab is testing it.

Sir, every person who has possession of that kit, it needs to be documented who had it and when, so they have to personally drive that kit to our state lab, which is about forty five minutes away. So now what happens when somebody reports in Lake County? The law enforcement agency who is handling the case now has seventy two hours to pick up that kit from the medical facility where it was done, and then the lab tests all kits that come in on a first come, first serve basis. So sometimes it may take five to six seven weeks for the kit to be tested, but every kit is tested now. And now our entire state has adopted a tracking system, so when a victim is in the hospital and getting that exam done, they are given a pin number so that anytime the victim can go into the database and see where her kit is so they can look and see, Okay, it was picked up by law enforcement. Okay, now it was dropped off at the lab. Okay, now the lab is testing it.

So I think I was reading online that the original plan was to dispose of kits that were like older than ten years old unless the victim came forward and specifically requested that their kit got tested. Do you know what happened with that?

So I think I was reading online that the original plan was to dispose of kits that were like older than ten years old unless the victim came forward and specifically requested that their kit got tested. Do you know what happened with that?

As far as my understanding, all kits up through twenty oh seven were tested.

As far as my understanding, all kits up through twenty oh seven were tested.

But I do know that some of our.

But I do know that some of our.

Jurisdictions in our county went back even further and just tested all of their kits, So there were some that were tested from prior to ten years.

Jurisdictions in our county went back even further and just tested all of their kits, So there were some that were tested from prior to ten years.

Prior to that.

Prior to that.

So some places went back and tested older kids. But you're not sure about the details of that.

So some places went back and tested older kids. But you're not sure about the details of that.

Oh, I'm not okay.

Oh, I'm not okay.

You know, I'm kind of curious about that, specifically with the algorithm stuff, because you know, there might have been this this serial killer active and kind of like the nineties to early two thousands. You know, just be interesting if if there were any kits from that period that we're getting tested.

You know, I'm kind of curious about that, specifically with the algorithm stuff, because you know, there might have been this this serial killer active and kind of like the nineties to early two thousands. You know, just be interesting if if there were any kits from that period that we're getting tested.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Unfortunately I don't know personally, but I mean, if you find out, let me know, because I've been following algorithms, so this case is very interesting to me as well.

Unfortunately I don't know personally, but I mean, if you find out, let me know, because I've been following algorithms, so this case is very interesting to me as well.

I asked doctor Lovell, the researcher that was involved in Cleveland's sexual Assault kid initiative, whether destroying rape kits was common. They said they would only test the kits going back ten years, and that they were going to like throw away their old kits unless victims came forward and said that they wanted them still tested. And you know it seems like costant basically nothing to keep those kits and kind of you never know even if you don't have the resources to do it. Now you know that things will get cheaper and stuff like that.

I asked doctor Lovell, the researcher that was involved in Cleveland's sexual Assault kid initiative, whether destroying rape kits was common. They said they would only test the kits going back ten years, and that they were going to like throw away their old kits unless victims came forward and said that they wanted them still tested. And you know it seems like costant basically nothing to keep those kits and kind of you never know even if you don't have the resources to do it. Now you know that things will get cheaper and stuff like that.

Yeah, I think, and we've seen that as well, and there's been some I think political. Maybe it was CNN, I can't remember. Anyway, they did a pretty extensive analysis of destroying rape kits and destroying evidence.

Yeah, I think, and we've seen that as well, and there's been some I think political. Maybe it was CNN, I can't remember. Anyway, they did a pretty extensive analysis of destroying rape kits and destroying evidence.

I found the article level was referring to. CNN had surveyed over two hundred police departments across all fifty states and found that almost half of them had destroyed some untested kits. Sometimes these kids had been destroyed improperly, and other times they're destroyed in accordance with policy.

I found the article level was referring to. CNN had surveyed over two hundred police departments across all fifty states and found that almost half of them had destroyed some untested kits. Sometimes these kids had been destroyed improperly, and other times they're destroyed in accordance with policy.

I think you see that quite a bit, that law enforcement. They all make their their own policies around how long they keep evidence. Some of them are mandated now by states, so Ohio now has uh I think it's the thirty years that they have to keep biological evidence. But you know, if they're following their practices, which they have you know, written out, and they say, oh, we only keep things ten years, otherwise we destroy it, I think some of those practices need to be re examined, and that means that you know, tax payers have to fit the bill to provide more storage facilities. But you know that to me doesn't seem like an insurmountable problem. And I think if the technology for DNA is telling us anything, it's that it's growing so fast and exponentially getting so much better that you know what, we couldn't get a DNA profile from now ten years from now, who knows. I mean, look at what genealogy testing has done, you know. So the thought that jurisdictions would just throw away evidence would suggest to me that they somehow think that what they're doing now has reached the pinnacle of all technology and that their investigative practices at the time were the best that they could possibly ever be, two things that I think you just can't assume. And it's a little disconcerting to hear about sort of putting all of the onus onto victims to reach out to the department and say, hey, I know I had this kit. I thought you tested it. How was I to know you didn't test it? And the cost of testing, by the way, as I said, has gone down quite dramatically, So just the testing is about five hundred dollars in Ohio, and then to have someone you know read the results and write a report is about another five hundred dollars. So you know, you're really talking about one thousand dollars per kit, which in the criminal justice system isn't a huge cost, you know, relative to the outcomes.

I think you see that quite a bit, that law enforcement. They all make their their own policies around how long they keep evidence. Some of them are mandated now by states, so Ohio now has uh I think it's the thirty years that they have to keep biological evidence. But you know, if they're following their practices, which they have you know, written out, and they say, oh, we only keep things ten years, otherwise we destroy it, I think some of those practices need to be re examined, and that means that you know, tax payers have to fit the bill to provide more storage facilities. But you know that to me doesn't seem like an insurmountable problem. And I think if the technology for DNA is telling us anything, it's that it's growing so fast and exponentially getting so much better that you know what, we couldn't get a DNA profile from now ten years from now, who knows. I mean, look at what genealogy testing has done, you know. So the thought that jurisdictions would just throw away evidence would suggest to me that they somehow think that what they're doing now has reached the pinnacle of all technology and that their investigative practices at the time were the best that they could possibly ever be, two things that I think you just can't assume. And it's a little disconcerting to hear about sort of putting all of the onus onto victims to reach out to the department and say, hey, I know I had this kit. I thought you tested it. How was I to know you didn't test it? And the cost of testing, by the way, as I said, has gone down quite dramatically, So just the testing is about five hundred dollars in Ohio, and then to have someone you know read the results and write a report is about another five hundred dollars. So you know, you're really talking about one thousand dollars per kit, which in the criminal justice system isn't a huge cost, you know, relative to the outcomes.

I followed up with the Wake County Prosecutor's office to see if they had more information about what had happened to their older kids. I also wanted to know which jurisdictions within Lake County had participated in the audit. And I've been trying to get answers to these questions since the first.

I followed up with the Wake County Prosecutor's office to see if they had more information about what had happened to their older kids. I also wanted to know which jurisdictions within Lake County had participated in the audit. And I've been trying to get answers to these questions since the first.

Week of July.

Week of July.

It's now the last week of August and I've still heard nothing. And it's important to get answers to these questions. When you claim you've solved your rape kit backlog, there's a big difference between doing a proper accounting of all backlog kits and testing them and doing a partial accounting and then throwing away a substantial number of kits. After radio silence from the Lake County Prosecutor's Office, I continued digging. I came across another article about the initiative from the Chicago Tribune. It mentions that out of the two hundred and fifty seven kits found in the audit, one hundred and ninety four were found in Hammond, thirty one in East Chicago, and twenty two in Maryville. So if you add up those numbers, two hundred and forty seven of the kits were found from those jurisdictions alone. That leaves a maximum of ten kits that could have been found in Gary, despite the fact that Hammond found one hundred and ninety four kits and they have an almost identical population to Gary. I think the most parsimonious explanation here is that Gary didn't participate in the audit, and it's unclear to what extent they've kept backlog kits or tested them. I was also curious about why Lake County had chosen to destroy kits more than ten years old. That would mean they would not include kids from two thousand and seven or before. Interestingly, two thousand and seven is the last year that Hargrove's algorithm observed an increase in unsolved strangulations, and Vaughan was arrested the very next year. I wondered at first whether ten years might be the statute of limitations for rape in Indiana, but when I looked into it, type one felony rape has no statute of limitations in Indiana, So it's unclear to me why those kits would not be preserved. But even if Lake County had retained and tested all their kits, it wouldn't necessarily be able to link Darren Vaughn to a homicide only to a sexual assault because the twenty seventeen initiative in Indiana and most of the initiatives to address rape kit backlogs don't include DNA from homicide victims.

It's now the last week of August and I've still heard nothing. And it's important to get answers to these questions. When you claim you've solved your rape kit backlog, there's a big difference between doing a proper accounting of all backlog kits and testing them and doing a partial accounting and then throwing away a substantial number of kits. After radio silence from the Lake County Prosecutor's Office, I continued digging. I came across another article about the initiative from the Chicago Tribune. It mentions that out of the two hundred and fifty seven kits found in the audit, one hundred and ninety four were found in Hammond, thirty one in East Chicago, and twenty two in Maryville. So if you add up those numbers, two hundred and forty seven of the kits were found from those jurisdictions alone. That leaves a maximum of ten kits that could have been found in Gary, despite the fact that Hammond found one hundred and ninety four kits and they have an almost identical population to Gary. I think the most parsimonious explanation here is that Gary didn't participate in the audit, and it's unclear to what extent they've kept backlog kits or tested them. I was also curious about why Lake County had chosen to destroy kits more than ten years old. That would mean they would not include kids from two thousand and seven or before. Interestingly, two thousand and seven is the last year that Hargrove's algorithm observed an increase in unsolved strangulations, and Vaughan was arrested the very next year. I wondered at first whether ten years might be the statute of limitations for rape in Indiana, but when I looked into it, type one felony rape has no statute of limitations in Indiana, So it's unclear to me why those kits would not be preserved. But even if Lake County had retained and tested all their kits, it wouldn't necessarily be able to link Darren Vaughn to a homicide only to a sexual assault because the twenty seventeen initiative in Indiana and most of the initiatives to address rape kit backlogs don't include DNA from homicide victims.

I do believe that.

I do believe that.

This statewide audit was only for kits taken from a victim in a hospital.

This statewide audit was only for kits taken from a victim in a hospital.

I don't know if any.

I don't know if any.

Of them were taken from homicide victims.

Of them were taken from homicide victims.

In Kyga County, if there was a murder rape, it went to the homicide unit as compared to the sex crimes unit. So if there was a rape, no homicide it, it was investigated differently and went to different units. So for the rape kits that we look at, there wasn't murders as part of that. There were rape homicides, but those were sort of in a different category.

In Kyga County, if there was a murder rape, it went to the homicide unit as compared to the sex crimes unit. So if there was a rape, no homicide it, it was investigated differently and went to different units. So for the rape kits that we look at, there wasn't murders as part of that. There were rape homicides, but those were sort of in a different category.

Yeah, and so you guys didn't go back and look at those homicide associated ones as well.

Yeah, and so you guys didn't go back and look at those homicide associated ones as well.

Not as part of the sexual salt kit initiative, but I know that Kyga County Prosecutor's office might also be looking at some of the rape homicides because there's funding now at the federal level to do some of that doing. I think what you're talking about here sort of expanding out the scope of it.

Not as part of the sexual salt kit initiative, but I know that Kyga County Prosecutor's office might also be looking at some of the rape homicides because there's funding now at the federal level to do some of that doing. I think what you're talking about here sort of expanding out the scope of it.

In fact, last October, the Cuyahoga Prosecutor's Office announced that it had received a million dollar grant from the US Department of Justice to continue their sexual assault kit testing program, and part of that grant includes a pilot project to do forensic genealogy on thirty two samples from sexually motivated homicides. Forensic genealogy is the technique that was used to catch the Golden State killer. It doesn't just look for complete matches with someone on the CODIS database, but looks for partial matches and CODIS and public DNA databases to find relatives of the perpetrator. Then genealogical techniques and further investigation can be used to identify the offender. Other grants from the Department of Justice or funding similar efforts to help solve cold case homicides. It appears, though, that the emphasis is on going back to cold cases where a DNA profile of the perpetrator had already been generated, but that they had never matched it to a suspect, and the grants give money to use forensic genealogy to try to find that match. I couldn't find any grants funding going back and doing an accounting of all the cold case evidence. Doctor Lovell wonders if an approach similar to Cuyahoga County's sexual assault kit initiative might benefit homicide investigations as well.

In fact, last October, the Cuyahoga Prosecutor's Office announced that it had received a million dollar grant from the US Department of Justice to continue their sexual assault kit testing program, and part of that grant includes a pilot project to do forensic genealogy on thirty two samples from sexually motivated homicides. Forensic genealogy is the technique that was used to catch the Golden State killer. It doesn't just look for complete matches with someone on the CODIS database, but looks for partial matches and CODIS and public DNA databases to find relatives of the perpetrator. Then genealogical techniques and further investigation can be used to identify the offender. Other grants from the Department of Justice or funding similar efforts to help solve cold case homicides. It appears, though, that the emphasis is on going back to cold cases where a DNA profile of the perpetrator had already been generated, but that they had never matched it to a suspect, and the grants give money to use forensic genealogy to try to find that match. I couldn't find any grants funding going back and doing an accounting of all the cold case evidence. Doctor Lovell wonders if an approach similar to Cuyahoga County's sexual assault kit initiative might benefit homicide investigations as well.

Sachi, you know, as successful as it has been, I think it shows that there's great value in going to the cold cases in cold case homicides as well and really trying to see is there evidence that could be tested. Is there something in terms of genealogy that could be done where all the evidence tested, you know, was it tested using current techniques or was it only tested for zerology? You know, things like that that they're starting to ask those questions.

Sachi, you know, as successful as it has been, I think it shows that there's great value in going to the cold cases in cold case homicides as well and really trying to see is there evidence that could be tested. Is there something in terms of genealogy that could be done where all the evidence tested, you know, was it tested using current techniques or was it only tested for zerology? You know, things like that that they're starting to ask those questions.

Last July, over a year ago now, I'd reached out to the Lake County corners to try to find out more information about the victims Hargrove had identified. I was curious if DNA evidence was collected and if it was ever tested and submitted to CODIS, the federal DNA database. I was unable to get answers from the coroner's department about these cases, perhaps because they were unsolved and therefore still open. I'm not sure, but I wonder to what extent older samples from cold cases have gone untested the way rape kits were. I hope that DNA evidence from old homicides like this have been preserved, and I hope if they haven't been tested yet, one day they will be investigating the algorithm and then Darren Vaughan has been a roller coaster. It wasn't at all what I imagined when I first began working on this project. And sometimes I feel I've gotten so far off my original path that I worry that I've gotten lost, that I'm missing something big, or maybe missing the forest for the trees. And sometimes I find myself wondering what's the point of solving these cold cases in the first place. Of course, they could potentially lead to the arrest of a violent criminal, a perpetrator who might kill again. But if we're looking specifically for a connection to Vaughan, then what's the point if he's already serving life in prison. I was hoping to find a connection to previous crimes to prove that Hargrove's algorithm had predictive value, that it was able to identify an active serial killer before the police did, and therefore that it would be a valuable tool for law enforcement. I think there's no doubt that the algorithm identified that something very unusual was going on in Gary with its identification of fifteen unsolved strangulations over a sixteen year period. I think it's very possible that some of these murders were the work of Vaughan or another serial killer. On the other hand, Gary is a very unusual city where many murders go unsolved, and it's a city full of abandoned buildings where bodies can be hidden or even dumped from homicides and other jurisdictions.

Last July, over a year ago now, I'd reached out to the Lake County corners to try to find out more information about the victims Hargrove had identified. I was curious if DNA evidence was collected and if it was ever tested and submitted to CODIS, the federal DNA database. I was unable to get answers from the coroner's department about these cases, perhaps because they were unsolved and therefore still open. I'm not sure, but I wonder to what extent older samples from cold cases have gone untested the way rape kits were. I hope that DNA evidence from old homicides like this have been preserved, and I hope if they haven't been tested yet, one day they will be investigating the algorithm and then Darren Vaughan has been a roller coaster. It wasn't at all what I imagined when I first began working on this project. And sometimes I feel I've gotten so far off my original path that I worry that I've gotten lost, that I'm missing something big, or maybe missing the forest for the trees. And sometimes I find myself wondering what's the point of solving these cold cases in the first place. Of course, they could potentially lead to the arrest of a violent criminal, a perpetrator who might kill again. But if we're looking specifically for a connection to Vaughan, then what's the point if he's already serving life in prison. I was hoping to find a connection to previous crimes to prove that Hargrove's algorithm had predictive value, that it was able to identify an active serial killer before the police did, and therefore that it would be a valuable tool for law enforcement. I think there's no doubt that the algorithm identified that something very unusual was going on in Gary with its identification of fifteen unsolved strangulations over a sixteen year period. I think it's very possible that some of these murders were the work of Vaughan or another serial killer. On the other hand, Gary is a very unusual city where many murders go unsolved, and it's a city full of abandoned buildings where bodies can be hidden or even dumped from homicides and other jurisdictions.

So is this algorithm perfect? No? Can it produce false results? Absolutely. What we tell people always is what the algorithm does is to identify clusters of murders that have an elevated probability of containing serial murder. That just means if the FBI says that serial murder occurs in less than one percent of all homicides. We no longer believe that, but that's the official reckoning for how common serial murder is. Well, if less than one percent of murders are likely to be serial, our algorithm will do better than that. It will identify murders that have a better than one percent probability of containing serial murders. It turns out way better than one percent. We frequently are determining cases that are connected. But there is a failure rate, and what are some of the things that can go south on the algorithm. If you have a police department that has a relentlessly low clearance rate, like the Flint, Michigan Police Department, everything looks serial because there's a low clearance rate for every kind of murder, and there's not much you can do about that. And that's a problem because we're becoming less and less likely to solve a murder. In the United States today, there are dozens of major cities where most murders go unsolved. That means we're going to get false positives because of the algorithm's technique. We're trying to overcome those challenges, and we have actually We've made some improvements in the methods, but it's a problem.

So is this algorithm perfect? No? Can it produce false results? Absolutely. What we tell people always is what the algorithm does is to identify clusters of murders that have an elevated probability of containing serial murder. That just means if the FBI says that serial murder occurs in less than one percent of all homicides. We no longer believe that, but that's the official reckoning for how common serial murder is. Well, if less than one percent of murders are likely to be serial, our algorithm will do better than that. It will identify murders that have a better than one percent probability of containing serial murders. It turns out way better than one percent. We frequently are determining cases that are connected. But there is a failure rate, and what are some of the things that can go south on the algorithm. If you have a police department that has a relentlessly low clearance rate, like the Flint, Michigan Police Department, everything looks serial because there's a low clearance rate for every kind of murder, and there's not much you can do about that. And that's a problem because we're becoming less and less likely to solve a murder. In the United States today, there are dozens of major cities where most murders go unsolved. That means we're going to get false positives because of the algorithm's technique. We're trying to overcome those challenges, and we have actually We've made some improvements in the methods, but it's a problem.

I want to look at the algorithm and the ways it might be better used shortly, but first I want to get hypothetical for a moment. Let's say we found evidence that Vaughn was connected to one or more murders on the algorithm's list, proof that Hargrove was right in his twenty ten letter. What should police have done. Create a task force to look into evidence that might connect the crimes, notify the public, and what if police find something more concrete, like DNA evidence or firearm forensics that definitively link multiple murders, does the public have a right to know that information, even though publicizing that information could let the killer know the detectives are onto them. It seems to me that in a situation like Vonn's twenty fourteen murders and Gary, where the victims share characteristics, that the police would have had some obligation to warn other possible victims. But it's hard for the police to stop a future homicide from taking place, and in the case of Vaughn's twenty fourteen murders and Gary, police weren't even aware of the murders until after Vaughn's arrest. There was a strong suggestion that some of the victims, like Tira Batty, had been murdered thanks to Marvin Clinton's own investigation, But without discovering the bodies and submitting supplemental homicide reports to the FBI, Hargrove's algorithm wouldn't have been able to detect the cluster of Vonn's twenty fourteen crimes. That made me curious about how many missing persons there are out there, and how many of them are really homicide victims. So I called up Todd Matthews and then to get the levels on my end. Can you tell me what you had for breakfast this morning?

I want to look at the algorithm and the ways it might be better used shortly, but first I want to get hypothetical for a moment. Let's say we found evidence that Vaughn was connected to one or more murders on the algorithm's list, proof that Hargrove was right in his twenty ten letter. What should police have done. Create a task force to look into evidence that might connect the crimes, notify the public, and what if police find something more concrete, like DNA evidence or firearm forensics that definitively link multiple murders, does the public have a right to know that information, even though publicizing that information could let the killer know the detectives are onto them. It seems to me that in a situation like Vonn's twenty fourteen murders and Gary, where the victims share characteristics, that the police would have had some obligation to warn other possible victims. But it's hard for the police to stop a future homicide from taking place, and in the case of Vaughn's twenty fourteen murders and Gary, police weren't even aware of the murders until after Vaughn's arrest. There was a strong suggestion that some of the victims, like Tira Batty, had been murdered thanks to Marvin Clinton's own investigation, But without discovering the bodies and submitting supplemental homicide reports to the FBI, Hargrove's algorithm wouldn't have been able to detect the cluster of Vonn's twenty fourteen crimes. That made me curious about how many missing persons there are out there, and how many of them are really homicide victims. So I called up Todd Matthews and then to get the levels on my end. Can you tell me what you had for breakfast this morning?

I had coffee. I had about five cups of coffee today. I'm like a snake, ill like it once a day. Just ate something nice and solid.

I had coffee. I had about five cups of coffee today. I'm like a snake, ill like it once a day. Just ate something nice and solid.

After he helped identify it Jane Doe through webslew Thing, Matthews founded the Dough Network in nineteen ninety nine. It was a national database for missing persons and also unidentified bodies, with the hopes of connecting John and Jane Doe's to missing person reports. Similar to Hargrove, Matthews realized that police departments struggle with solving these kinds of cases, So we decided to create the Dough Network as a tool to help police officers and amateur slews with their investigations.

After he helped identify it Jane Doe through webslew Thing, Matthews founded the Dough Network in nineteen ninety nine. It was a national database for missing persons and also unidentified bodies, with the hopes of connecting John and Jane Doe's to missing person reports. Similar to Hargrove, Matthews realized that police departments struggle with solving these kinds of cases, So we decided to create the Dough Network as a tool to help police officers and amateur slews with their investigations.

That person could be alive and well, you don't know their circumstances. Some people it's mental illness, some it's dementia, drug abuse. Sometimes an accident, sometimes it's murdered. You just never know what you're going.

That person could be alive and well, you don't know their circumstances. Some people it's mental illness, some it's dementia, drug abuse. Sometimes an accident, sometimes it's murdered. You just never know what you're going.

To get In almost a decade after Matthews created the Dough Network, the Department of Justice decided they wanted to make their own official version called NamUs. That's nam us, and they brought in Matthews to help.

To get In almost a decade after Matthews created the Dough Network, the Department of Justice decided they wanted to make their own official version called NamUs. That's nam us, and they brought in Matthews to help.

The Department of Justice actually first contacted me with NamUs in two thousand and seven to help them do what DO Network proved was possible.

The Department of Justice actually first contacted me with NamUs in two thousand and seven to help them do what DO Network proved was possible.

Like the DO Network, nemusless information like a missing person's demographics, when and where they were last seen, and a description of the circumstances of how they want missing. All that is available to the public. But with NAMIS, detectives working on the case can log in and access additional items the evidence.

Like the DO Network, nemusless information like a missing person's demographics, when and where they were last seen, and a description of the circumstances of how they want missing. All that is available to the public. But with NAMIS, detectives working on the case can log in and access additional items the evidence.

You know, something that though network wouldn't necessarily have its hands on like the dental records, DNA fingerprint analysis.

You know, something that though network wouldn't necessarily have its hands on like the dental records, DNA fingerprint analysis.

Do you have a sense of kind of to what extent technology is being used in terms of police checking cell phone records or credit card records, things like that.

Do you have a sense of kind of to what extent technology is being used in terms of police checking cell phone records or credit card records, things like that.

You do see a lot of that, you know, pinging the cell phone and then if a cell phone's been disabled. You know, that kind of leads you to think of foul play possibly, But it is getting better as far if you if you swipe a card or carry a phone. It's hard to go missing. It's not easy to be a missing person and still work a sleep, you know, do something. It's it's hard to make yourself missing on purpose now, for the good or the bad. It's just harder to do it. And but it's going to happen. You know, people are going to be able to get around some of those things. They truly want to be missing. And that's where some of the privacy concerns come in. You know, if I want to go missing, can I is it morally okay for me to just allow my family to think that I'm you know, I don't know where I am. Yeah, a lot of issues, a lot of things to think about.

You do see a lot of that, you know, pinging the cell phone and then if a cell phone's been disabled. You know, that kind of leads you to think of foul play possibly, But it is getting better as far if you if you swipe a card or carry a phone. It's hard to go missing. It's not easy to be a missing person and still work a sleep, you know, do something. It's it's hard to make yourself missing on purpose now, for the good or the bad. It's just harder to do it. And but it's going to happen. You know, people are going to be able to get around some of those things. They truly want to be missing. And that's where some of the privacy concerns come in. You know, if I want to go missing, can I is it morally okay for me to just allow my family to think that I'm you know, I don't know where I am. Yeah, a lot of issues, a lot of things to think about.

This podcast is kind of looking into the work of this serial killer, and he was caught for one murder, confessed to six more murders, and led the police to their bodies. You know, some of them had been reported missing at that point. Others hadn't even been reported missing. I guess I'm curious of just like, how how good of a sense do we have of how big this problem actually is, and kind of are we doing everything we can be doing to keep track of this stuff and monitor it.

This podcast is kind of looking into the work of this serial killer, and he was caught for one murder, confessed to six more murders, and led the police to their bodies. You know, some of them had been reported missing at that point. Others hadn't even been reported missing. I guess I'm curious of just like, how how good of a sense do we have of how big this problem actually is, and kind of are we doing everything we can be doing to keep track of this stuff and monitor it.

Well, it's a silent mass disaster. It's called the nation's silent mass disaster because of the time frames the distances.

Well, it's a silent mass disaster. It's called the nation's silent mass disaster because of the time frames the distances.

According to NIMUS, there are currently over twenty thousand missing person cases is. Some of those will be resolved quickly with the missing person found alive and safe, but some are people who have been killed but their body was never found where if it was found, they're a John or Jane Doe waiting to be identified. But Matthew says the database isn't yet comprehensive. Whether cases get entered into NAMIS varies from state to state and jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

According to NIMUS, there are currently over twenty thousand missing person cases is. Some of those will be resolved quickly with the missing person found alive and safe, but some are people who have been killed but their body was never found where if it was found, they're a John or Jane Doe waiting to be identified. But Matthew says the database isn't yet comprehensive. Whether cases get entered into NAMIS varies from state to state and jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

My homestead of Tennessee, I work with local officials and in thirty days in Tennessee, you're supposed to go if you're missing or unidentified in Tennessee within thirty days, you're supposed to go on the name of this website. Now, whether that happens or not, you know, there's no punishment phase or not. And the requiring of use of names in state law actually does other things. It begins a training process with law enforcements, so it now will be part of the training academies so that they know the laws that are required. And eventually, you know, things will change, and I think we planned a lot of stats that are going to grow and evolve knowledge. It's going to get better, and I think we're all going to get better at it. It just seems like it takes so long. If you're the family member of a missing you know, two seconds is a very painful time period. You know, there's probably nothing more scary than having a missing family member and you have no control over it. You have no idea if they're alive, they're dead, they're hungry, they're cold. You know, you have no idea of what to do or even word again looking you know, that's probably one of the most helpless feelings as described to me people that have done it all been described very similarly, the most helpless feeling that they've ever had. You know, I've had people I've known for years and they know of my work and recognize and appreciate it, and then suddenly they're in that situation. That's when things change dramatically. You know, you don't know until you're sitting in that chair, you don't know how bad it can be. Literally, there's a local missing person and I've known the boy's aunt for more than twenty years. Now I hear from her more frequently. They're looking for him. He's a young adult, he's had some drug issues, and he might not necessarily be on the top of the list for law enforcement to look for. Yeah, it doesn't change her situation. He's still her nephew and she wants him found. Now. I don't blame her. And it's just by the time you realize how bad it can be, you're probably already snake bit, you know.

My homestead of Tennessee, I work with local officials and in thirty days in Tennessee, you're supposed to go if you're missing or unidentified in Tennessee within thirty days, you're supposed to go on the name of this website. Now, whether that happens or not, you know, there's no punishment phase or not. And the requiring of use of names in state law actually does other things. It begins a training process with law enforcements, so it now will be part of the training academies so that they know the laws that are required. And eventually, you know, things will change, and I think we planned a lot of stats that are going to grow and evolve knowledge. It's going to get better, and I think we're all going to get better at it. It just seems like it takes so long. If you're the family member of a missing you know, two seconds is a very painful time period. You know, there's probably nothing more scary than having a missing family member and you have no control over it. You have no idea if they're alive, they're dead, they're hungry, they're cold. You know, you have no idea of what to do or even word again looking you know, that's probably one of the most helpless feelings as described to me people that have done it all been described very similarly, the most helpless feeling that they've ever had. You know, I've had people I've known for years and they know of my work and recognize and appreciate it, and then suddenly they're in that situation. That's when things change dramatically. You know, you don't know until you're sitting in that chair, you don't know how bad it can be. Literally, there's a local missing person and I've known the boy's aunt for more than twenty years. Now I hear from her more frequently. They're looking for him. He's a young adult, he's had some drug issues, and he might not necessarily be on the top of the list for law enforcement to look for. Yeah, it doesn't change her situation. He's still her nephew and she wants him found. Now. I don't blame her. And it's just by the time you realize how bad it can be, you're probably already snake bit, you know.

And when you say, like, not at the top of the list for law enforcement to look for, what what do you mean by that?

And when you say, like, not at the top of the list for law enforcement to look for, what what do you mean by that?

Well, a lot of times if somebody has had some trouble, it's just like, well are they missing or they just stand out of the way, have they done something? Are they hiding out for some reason? So it's just hard to sometimes see somebody that they might recognize as a criminal as a vulnerable victim. Now, I know the local boy that's missing, he has a really bad case of diabetes and he cannot survive with that medication. So unless he's found some way to buy medication some were he can't have survived. And his family knows that. So where's he at? So now into like day sixty five of his disappearance, the family realized that he can't survive. He's not come back to them, and it's getting way down the line now, you know. Now it's recovery of remains instead of finding somebody potentially in a bad situation.

Well, a lot of times if somebody has had some trouble, it's just like, well are they missing or they just stand out of the way, have they done something? Are they hiding out for some reason? So it's just hard to sometimes see somebody that they might recognize as a criminal as a vulnerable victim. Now, I know the local boy that's missing, he has a really bad case of diabetes and he cannot survive with that medication. So unless he's found some way to buy medication some were he can't have survived. And his family knows that. So where's he at? So now into like day sixty five of his disappearance, the family realized that he can't survive. He's not come back to them, and it's getting way down the line now, you know. Now it's recovery of remains instead of finding somebody potentially in a bad situation.

Does that police attitude frustrate you or do you think that that is just kind of the way that it is.

Does that police attitude frustrate you or do you think that that is just kind of the way that it is.

It is the way that it is. It does get frustrating at time, especially when you know somebody like this person. I knew that family, and it's always this my son and never do that. Yeah, will my daughter didn't have a tattoo? Maybe she did, you just didn't know about it. So you're going to hear somebody say my child would never do that. My adult child would never, ever, ever ever not call me. And most of the time it's just like, well, maybe it is possible. But then when you do know people and you know who they are and their story is really making sense, and it's like, yeah, you're you're right. Probably would not be without medication for this period of time, So something's wrong. Even though he might have done things that put him on the wrong side of the law, ultimately he is in danger. So we have to think about this differently. So it is frustrating at times, but understand because when I was with Department of Justice with NamUs, the volume of people reaching out can be overwhelming. So I can see how you can quickly get frustrated getting multiple calls, and we have to make it easier to do. We have to make more tools available to the family. They can enter their own missing person case and name us. They can start the ball rolling, so instead of waiting for law enforcement to it, they can start the process. They'll have to be validated, but at least it gives them something to do instead of waiting for somebody to come and help them. They can start the process. Because when you're getting validation reports coming back from a program that's developed by the Department of Justice. I mean, I think they're not just going to tell Justice Agency how they'll be bad. We're not going to look for him, you know. I think once they see that, we don't really need you to create a profile. US has a profile kind of takes a little bit out of their control and has that helped. It has helped, It's helped tremendously as it cleared it up completely.

It is the way that it is. It does get frustrating at time, especially when you know somebody like this person. I knew that family, and it's always this my son and never do that. Yeah, will my daughter didn't have a tattoo? Maybe she did, you just didn't know about it. So you're going to hear somebody say my child would never do that. My adult child would never, ever, ever ever not call me. And most of the time it's just like, well, maybe it is possible. But then when you do know people and you know who they are and their story is really making sense, and it's like, yeah, you're you're right. Probably would not be without medication for this period of time, So something's wrong. Even though he might have done things that put him on the wrong side of the law, ultimately he is in danger. So we have to think about this differently. So it is frustrating at times, but understand because when I was with Department of Justice with NamUs, the volume of people reaching out can be overwhelming. So I can see how you can quickly get frustrated getting multiple calls, and we have to make it easier to do. We have to make more tools available to the family. They can enter their own missing person case and name us. They can start the ball rolling, so instead of waiting for law enforcement to it, they can start the process. They'll have to be validated, but at least it gives them something to do instead of waiting for somebody to come and help them. They can start the process. Because when you're getting validation reports coming back from a program that's developed by the Department of Justice. I mean, I think they're not just going to tell Justice Agency how they'll be bad. We're not going to look for him, you know. I think once they see that, we don't really need you to create a profile. US has a profile kind of takes a little bit out of their control and has that helped. It has helped, It's helped tremendously as it cleared it up completely.

No, when you kind of like look really big picture, is there a direction that we're heading with technology or the way we investigate stuff.

No, when you kind of like look really big picture, is there a direction that we're heading with technology or the way we investigate stuff.

It's only going to improve ultimately. You know, it's going to be quicker to do the DNA test, encouraging the families. Like every at one point in time, every singer at my local high school's fingerprinted because I will go and bring local law enforcement in the forensic class and will thumb print everybody or fingerprintedy rdy to get a ten print and then you know, you put it away and God forbid, I hope I never have to see it again. So there's there's lots of things that can be done, but I mean it's at some price. You know, you are going to have to think about things that make you uncomfortable, and you know, thinking of a person that might be deceased, and that's not what you want, but it is what it is. We're all going to die eventually, and I think we can accept a natural death. It's just we're not programmed to have a missing person. There's no funeral, there's no closure, there's no explanation for it. There's no way to process. I've seen families grow stronger as a result of it, and then they go on to pass state laws and advocate and make sure nobody suffers what they suffer. I've seen other families deteriorate because of it because there's no way to move on. It just can be devastating. I had a local lady that her son's been missing for many years and she wanted to show me something. She tuk me to the grave. She actually had a tombstone put up for her son next to her and her husband. She goes, if we're gone, can you make sure he's buried here? If his body's found. She's given up. You know, she's she knows that she's at the end, and she's getting older, and you know it's going to become more and more difficult for her to try to find, and her hope of finding him during her lifetime is fading, and she only ones now is can you make sure he's buried here? Will you let him know our wishes? I don't want him lay in a lab in a box. You know, I can say, you know what, I'll do everything in Yeah, I know your wishes and I'll make them known. You know. I have to think about will I even be around when his body's found? If it's found, so I think the best way to do is to tell that story, mention it somewhere, and then you know, that's it. You just have to share.

It's only going to improve ultimately. You know, it's going to be quicker to do the DNA test, encouraging the families. Like every at one point in time, every singer at my local high school's fingerprinted because I will go and bring local law enforcement in the forensic class and will thumb print everybody or fingerprintedy rdy to get a ten print and then you know, you put it away and God forbid, I hope I never have to see it again. So there's there's lots of things that can be done, but I mean it's at some price. You know, you are going to have to think about things that make you uncomfortable, and you know, thinking of a person that might be deceased, and that's not what you want, but it is what it is. We're all going to die eventually, and I think we can accept a natural death. It's just we're not programmed to have a missing person. There's no funeral, there's no closure, there's no explanation for it. There's no way to process. I've seen families grow stronger as a result of it, and then they go on to pass state laws and advocate and make sure nobody suffers what they suffer. I've seen other families deteriorate because of it because there's no way to move on. It just can be devastating. I had a local lady that her son's been missing for many years and she wanted to show me something. She tuk me to the grave. She actually had a tombstone put up for her son next to her and her husband. She goes, if we're gone, can you make sure he's buried here? If his body's found. She's given up. You know, she's she knows that she's at the end, and she's getting older, and you know it's going to become more and more difficult for her to try to find, and her hope of finding him during her lifetime is fading, and she only ones now is can you make sure he's buried here? Will you let him know our wishes? I don't want him lay in a lab in a box. You know, I can say, you know what, I'll do everything in Yeah, I know your wishes and I'll make them known. You know. I have to think about will I even be around when his body's found? If it's found, so I think the best way to do is to tell that story, mention it somewhere, and then you know, that's it. You just have to share.

When I began researching this show, I asked myself the question, with all the data we're collecting, storing, sorting, why is it that we're getting worse at solving homicides When it comes to policing. We are starting to do more with data, but we're not really doing it in any kind of systematic way. I think it's reasonable to worry about new technologies like facial recognition, that they might be moving our country towards some sort of surveillance state. But I think the real nightmare right now is much more banal. We're missing important connections we could be making and letting killers go free. One of the things that surprised me about Hargrove's algorithm was how simple it was. This wasn't some sort of deep learning neural network getting fed mountains of data. It was a simple, handcrafted algorithm getting basic demographic information about the victims along with the method of killing year in jurisdiction. And you can imagine that with richer data and a more involved algorithm, patterns might emerge more clearly. In fact, Hargrove has been working on an updated algorithm. I know you said, you know that you're still in publication for the algorithm two point zero. Is there anything you can talk about that.

When I began researching this show, I asked myself the question, with all the data we're collecting, storing, sorting, why is it that we're getting worse at solving homicides When it comes to policing. We are starting to do more with data, but we're not really doing it in any kind of systematic way. I think it's reasonable to worry about new technologies like facial recognition, that they might be moving our country towards some sort of surveillance state. But I think the real nightmare right now is much more banal. We're missing important connections we could be making and letting killers go free. One of the things that surprised me about Hargrove's algorithm was how simple it was. This wasn't some sort of deep learning neural network getting fed mountains of data. It was a simple, handcrafted algorithm getting basic demographic information about the victims along with the method of killing year in jurisdiction. And you can imagine that with richer data and a more involved algorithm, patterns might emerge more clearly. In fact, Hargrove has been working on an updated algorithm. I know you said, you know that you're still in publication for the algorithm two point zero. Is there anything you can talk about that.

We want to get into a peer review journal, and so we're still writing. I can tell you that what is different about the newer version of the algorithm is it dynamic evaluates each murder. What the old algorithm did was just to create a group and then to assess what the clearance rate was for the group. The new algorithm individually assesses each murder and then decides whether or not that murder looks suspicious and that individual assessment is better and so it definitely is an improvement over the old and so once we get it published, we'll make it available. But we need that confirmation that we're onto something, and so we need others to look at it. And right now we're struggling with following the format for pure reviewed publications. And apparently one of our reviewers is a former cop and took offense to what we did. I guess he or she thought that the algorithm made police look bad. I don't understand that, because we've got several former cops on the list of authors with this project, that it's not our intent to ever make law enforcement look bad. We're just trying to provide a new tool and the toolkit.

We want to get into a peer review journal, and so we're still writing. I can tell you that what is different about the newer version of the algorithm is it dynamic evaluates each murder. What the old algorithm did was just to create a group and then to assess what the clearance rate was for the group. The new algorithm individually assesses each murder and then decides whether or not that murder looks suspicious and that individual assessment is better and so it definitely is an improvement over the old and so once we get it published, we'll make it available. But we need that confirmation that we're onto something, and so we need others to look at it. And right now we're struggling with following the format for pure reviewed publications. And apparently one of our reviewers is a former cop and took offense to what we did. I guess he or she thought that the algorithm made police look bad. I don't understand that, because we've got several former cops on the list of authors with this project, that it's not our intent to ever make law enforcement look bad. We're just trying to provide a new tool and the toolkit.

I'm hoping that a bunch of people listen to this podcast, and some of them might be data scientists or people like that. And I was curious, if someone wants to help you with this kind of work, they have some idea of something they want to try with the data, is that something you're interested in.

I'm hoping that a bunch of people listen to this podcast, and some of them might be data scientists or people like that. And I was curious, if someone wants to help you with this kind of work, they have some idea of something they want to try with the data, is that something you're interested in.

We make our data available. If you go to murder data dot org and go to the data and docs tab, you can download everything, absolutely everything, the original algorithm and the raw data, and we encourage folks to use the data and see if they can come up with something useful. We are hoping that someone may be able to get artificial intelligence to do clever things with these records. So far, all attempts that have been made have not been successful, but that doesn't mean something good mightn't happen in the future. So we're hoping that bright people will take free data and see if they can come up with something clever.

We make our data available. If you go to murder data dot org and go to the data and docs tab, you can download everything, absolutely everything, the original algorithm and the raw data, and we encourage folks to use the data and see if they can come up with something useful. We are hoping that someone may be able to get artificial intelligence to do clever things with these records. So far, all attempts that have been made have not been successful, but that doesn't mean something good mightn't happen in the future. So we're hoping that bright people will take free data and see if they can come up with something clever.

At the beginning of the podcast, I also mentioned as startling statistic that homicides today are being cleared at a much lower rate than in previous decades. No one knows exactly why the clearance rate for homicides is decreasing, but Hargarve has some ideas.

At the beginning of the podcast, I also mentioned as startling statistic that homicides today are being cleared at a much lower rate than in previous decades. No one knows exactly why the clearance rate for homicides is decreasing, but Hargarve has some ideas.

Murder begets murder, and unsolved murder really begets murder. When most killings go unsolved, there starts to develop a narrative that the only way I'm going to get justice for my loved ones is to take the law into my own hands. Also, murderers who walk the street are available to kill again. Why wouldn't they they got away with it the first time. We are convinced that serial murder is much much more common than anyone ever dreamed of, even in their ninth Mars. Now, that's not to say that serial sexual murder is on the rise. It's not. The traditional Hollywood kind of serial killer is definitely on the decline. But the statistical serial killer, anyone who kills two or more people in separate incidents, that really is is certainly more common than is recognized. It is quite likely that the most common type of serial murder is the gang enforcer on a local street gang. How many of those killings get solved? I mean, increasingly, people who have gotten an adept at committing murder and getting away with it are just getting away with it. We believe that the decline in homicide clearance rate is primarily driven by a lack of leadership, a lack of public passion that murders should be solved, a lack of re sources for homicide detectives, a lack of accountability. The clearance rate for homicides should be a metric that policymakers carefully follow in determining whether or not a police department is effective. When mayors of cities pledge to get a handle on their murder problem, generally speaking, the murder rate starts to drop. Improved clearance rates will reduce the rate of which murder occurs. It's not easy and it's not cheap. Increasingly there's a competition for limited resources in major cities. Many cities cannot afford their pension plan. I mean, the fiscal challenges for modern government are becoming extreme. We in America have to make major crimes a higher priority. We cannot dismiss murders because well, just the kinds of people that get murdered I don't care about, which I'm afraid maybe part of the dreadful calculus as to what's happened. It is our hope at the Murder Accountability Project that our data become a political force. That people can look up the rate at which murders are cleared in their communities, and if they don't like what they see, they should have a conversation with their mayor and their city council members. That unsolved murder is simply unacceptable.

Murder begets murder, and unsolved murder really begets murder. When most killings go unsolved, there starts to develop a narrative that the only way I'm going to get justice for my loved ones is to take the law into my own hands. Also, murderers who walk the street are available to kill again. Why wouldn't they they got away with it the first time. We are convinced that serial murder is much much more common than anyone ever dreamed of, even in their ninth Mars. Now, that's not to say that serial sexual murder is on the rise. It's not. The traditional Hollywood kind of serial killer is definitely on the decline. But the statistical serial killer, anyone who kills two or more people in separate incidents, that really is is certainly more common than is recognized. It is quite likely that the most common type of serial murder is the gang enforcer on a local street gang. How many of those killings get solved? I mean, increasingly, people who have gotten an adept at committing murder and getting away with it are just getting away with it. We believe that the decline in homicide clearance rate is primarily driven by a lack of leadership, a lack of public passion that murders should be solved, a lack of re sources for homicide detectives, a lack of accountability. The clearance rate for homicides should be a metric that policymakers carefully follow in determining whether or not a police department is effective. When mayors of cities pledge to get a handle on their murder problem, generally speaking, the murder rate starts to drop. Improved clearance rates will reduce the rate of which murder occurs. It's not easy and it's not cheap. Increasingly there's a competition for limited resources in major cities. Many cities cannot afford their pension plan. I mean, the fiscal challenges for modern government are becoming extreme. We in America have to make major crimes a higher priority. We cannot dismiss murders because well, just the kinds of people that get murdered I don't care about, which I'm afraid maybe part of the dreadful calculus as to what's happened. It is our hope at the Murder Accountability Project that our data become a political force. That people can look up the rate at which murders are cleared in their communities, and if they don't like what they see, they should have a conversation with their mayor and their city council members. That unsolved murder is simply unacceptable.

And Hargrove's analysis of the declining clearance rate for murder shows that it is driven by homicides where the victim is black.

And Hargrove's analysis of the declining clearance rate for murder shows that it is driven by homicides where the victim is black.

The entirety of that declining homicide clearance rate was born by African American victims. In cases of Caucasian murder, Asian murder, Native American murder, those murders are about as likely to be solved today as they were fifty years ago. That's just a fact, and we should never ignore what the data show us today.

The entirety of that declining homicide clearance rate was born by African American victims. In cases of Caucasian murder, Asian murder, Native American murder, those murders are about as likely to be solved today as they were fifty years ago. That's just a fact, and we should never ignore what the data show us today.

If your loved one is murdered and they're white, there's over a six seventy five percent chance someone will be arrested for the crime. If they're black, the chance someone will be arrested drops below sixty percent, And the chance of being murdered is much higher for Black Americans, particularly young black men. As I mold over these statistics, I kept thinking back to my interview with Kerrie Rice, the police officer who responded to Vaughan's gasoline incident. When I googled him, I saw an article about how one of his sons had been shot and killed.

If your loved one is murdered and they're white, there's over a six seventy five percent chance someone will be arrested for the crime. If they're black, the chance someone will be arrested drops below sixty percent, And the chance of being murdered is much higher for Black Americans, particularly young black men. As I mold over these statistics, I kept thinking back to my interview with Kerrie Rice, the police officer who responded to Vaughan's gasoline incident. When I googled him, I saw an article about how one of his sons had been shot and killed.

You know.

You know.

I saw that your family has kind of personally been affected by violent crime, yea, And I was just wondering if you wanted to talk a little bit about that and how it, you know, if it has changed the perspective on the work that you do.

I saw that your family has kind of personally been affected by violent crime, yea, And I was just wondering if you wanted to talk a little bit about that and how it, you know, if it has changed the perspective on the work that you do.

Like I say I have, I've had a lot of family members killed in this city all the way back far of ninety eight, but my nephew was Kilo actually before that and eighty six my older brother was killed. It really didn't affect me too much and doing my job. I know, I still had a job to do, and I did it, and it really, you know, after a while, you don't think about it too much. The last two people in my family actually they had two sons that were killed within in the past year.

Like I say I have, I've had a lot of family members killed in this city all the way back far of ninety eight, but my nephew was Kilo actually before that and eighty six my older brother was killed. It really didn't affect me too much and doing my job. I know, I still had a job to do, and I did it, and it really, you know, after a while, you don't think about it too much. The last two people in my family actually they had two sons that were killed within in the past year.

So yeah, I mean, I guess it's homicide is one of the leading causes of death for young black men. And you know, I don't know if you have any thoughts from kind of your perspective and law enforcement or just in general what people can do as individuals or what we can do as a broader society to change that.

So yeah, I mean, I guess it's homicide is one of the leading causes of death for young black men. And you know, I don't know if you have any thoughts from kind of your perspective and law enforcement or just in general what people can do as individuals or what we can do as a broader society to change that.

Well, I really believe that there's two main things that need to be done, and one of them I was doing. I was running truancy court, making sure the kids went to school and got an education. And it's a shame that you have to make Some parents actually send their.

Well, I really believe that there's two main things that need to be done, and one of them I was doing. I was running truancy court, making sure the kids went to school and got an education. And it's a shame that you have to make Some parents actually send their.

Kids to school, but.

Kids to school, but.

They just don't understand how that affects a kid when they get older. I guarantee you at least seventy percent of people we arrest here. And Geary, you don't have a high school diploma, and I think that fees into the crime because everybody gonna grow up, everybody gonna want things, and you can't even reason fell out application your you know, your job.

They just don't understand how that affects a kid when they get older. I guarantee you at least seventy percent of people we arrest here. And Geary, you don't have a high school diploma, and I think that fees into the crime because everybody gonna grow up, everybody gonna want things, and you can't even reason fell out application your you know, your job.