You're listening to afro Punk Solution Sessions. I'm your host Brigittad and I'm your co host Eve Jeff Cookee. Acro Punk is a safe place, a blank space to freak out in, to construct a new reality, to live our lives as we see fit while making sense of the world around us. Here at afro Punk, we have the conversations that matter to us, conversations that lead to solutions. You might remember Sean sifer Wall from the episode that we did on prison abolition, prison reform, and mass incarceration early in the season, but Scifil also had a lot to say about intersects rights and the writing that he does, and the conversation that I had with him was just so good and so enlightening that we cann't help but share the whole thing with you. The film that he talked about on the episode was a documentary that he has done called Letters to Unborn Son, that explores how incarceration really affects families, and he does that through the letters that his incarcerated father sent to him. But there's just this whole other world of things that Cil is involved in, and it was just such an impactful conversation that we would love to share it with you all. So here it is. Are you guys cool with starting with about playing a game? Sure? Okay, So I'm just gonna throw out a few words, and I want you to say the first thing that comes to your mind in relation to them in terms of activism or social justice. Okay, tired, mm hmm, first thing that comes to my mind. I just felt it. I recognize that first thing in this moment is burnout. Do you want me to explain? Yes? Please please? UM. So when I think about tired and burnout, I think about the people who are doing activists work, whether they be in the United States or abroad or globally, um, who are just putting in work and who are not properly funded, and who are just doing this work because they care about this work and they really want to affect change. Um. And so I can really see, depending on the issue that you're working on, it can be really it can weigh on your heart, it can weigh on your spirit. So it's no surprise to me that people are tired. And I think there's a term that people throw around called burnout, where someone is like, Okay, I'm gonna stop organizing and I'm going to be a farmer, or I'm gonna stop organizing and I'm gonna work for the corporate for a corporation because I just I'm just tired. So that's what came to mind. Okay, cool. The next word is loud, woud. First phrase that came to mind was turn up, turn up, get loud. I'm loud. I like being loud, and it reminds me of last year. So I'm an intersex activist, and as an intersex activists, I advocate for children, young adults, and infants that are born with bodies, sex traits, genitals, chromosomes that exists outside of what we consider normal for male and female, outside of this gender binary. And we planned an action in Chicago in front of the the Lury Children's Hospital and we were loud. We were loud. There was a cross section of activists who were there, and it was great to be supported by different movements, people from trans movements, black liberation movements, queer folks. And when you said that, the first image that came to mind was pigeon, my comrade, my homie, my best friend, on the bullhorn. Being loud just really kind of screaming, not screaming, but yelling. Uh, because we were in front of Larry Children's Hospital, was tall building and projecting the the sound upwards. Right. Um. So it's like I feel like we have to raise our voices in some ways to be heard, especially for those of among us who are the most marginalized, uh, the ones who are being persecuted in society given our current administration. So I think it requires us to be loud to push and advocate for our civil and human rights. The next word is anger. Anger. So the another a phrase, you say, what comes to mind? This is a good game. Um. What comes to mind is Marvin Gay And so he recorded I Think I Forgot the Year. But he recorded an album called Here My Dear. So he was getting the divorce from his wife Anne, and as part of the settlement because she won UM on his next album, he had to give her the proceeds because I think it was like a one million dollar divorce settlement. And so he went into the studio and I think it was probably one of his best albums because he just allowed himself to be creative. He was just like, I'm just gonna pour out my spirit. I'm just gonna experiment because he actually wanted to be allowed singer, so he just allowed himself to just really be creative. And I think that's probably some of the best medicine if you're an artist. And so it totally sank themselves were so low. The critics came after the album like, this is the worst album of his whole career, because I've got the album that preceded it, but it made him popular. It was like, what's going on? That was the album so compared to this album? People were like, Oh, this is horrible, So what was wild about that? One of the tracks UM on the albums called anger, right, and I think he really embodied anger on the track. He was like anger when this flaming hats, you know. And I was like, wow, Like sometimes I think about that, um, when you can kind of feel and kind of embody that race, because I think we live in a society where anger, especially if you're black, right, we're not allowed to be angry, you know. And I do feel like for me, what I say, as a person who's black, per so, who's intersex UM, person who's queer, um, I believe in righteous anger and I believe it's a response to the conditions in which we're living. Um. So yeah, those those my thoughts about anger. Cool. Um, the next word is a woke. Oh let me see first. My I'm telling you you want the real real m. The first word that comes to my mind is disgusted. Oh man, um, I'll keep it one. I hate to turn woke. I hate to turn woke so annoying. And it's annoying because I feel like the people who describe themselves as woke are the most annoying people to me, you know. I'm like, so, if you're woke, is everyone else sleeping? Like? I think we're in various stages of being aware, right, And I think sometimes there are those there are those of us who see the conditions, who see what's going on, and it's it doesn't mean that we're not woke. It means that purposefully we're probably in denial. Right. Very that's very real, you know, because we have a lot of learning we have to do right for real, for real, you know. So I think for me, I think what kind of establishes this hierarchy of knowledge? Right? Like, I'm so woke, I know what's going on, and it's just like I think we need to be humble first and foremost. I think we really need to always. Like you said, there's a lot of unlearning that needs to happen. Um. For me, it's gonna be a lifetime of unlearning because the conditions in which we exists and the things even on psychic levels, of what we're told about what is right, what is not right, what is beautiful, what is not beautiful? How do you present? Like? These are things that we have learned intrinsically that we have to unlearn. So I am very skeptical of people who describe themselves as woke. You know, that's understandable. So we'll move on to the next word, which is ally mm hmmm. First word it comes to mind is complicated. So I don't know if you've been in a workshop where people go around and they're like name prefer gender pronoun or name and pronoun And I'm just like, I'm sitting in my chair seething and feeling really uncomfortable and like, huh, because I feel like, when we talk about ally ship, what are we willing to do to be allies to someone? How uncomfortable are we willing to make ourselves in order to be allies? Right? Um so, I think you know, to use gender as an example. So for me, my pronouns quote unquotes are like he and him. And I've been in spaces where people are like, well like literally come up to me and bombard me like, oh yeah, you know, what's your pronouns? Don't even know my name, don't even like know anything about me, and they want to know my pronouns, right, and they consider themselves allies, And I'm just like, where where is the humanity? Right? Um? And I think sometimes it's like allies can get kind of full of themselves, right, They're like, oh, you know, I'm an ally you know. So for example, a guy might be like, you know, I'm a feminist. I'm an ally with women meanwhile saying and doing things that are so problematic, right. Um So I feel like with ally ship, like how are we committed? Like you said, are we committed to that unlearning over time? Because there's a lot if I want to be an ally ship with someone like, say, for an instance, someone who's disabled, there's just so many parts of that experience that I'm not going to know. So I can be an ally, but I have to be committed to unlearning things and to learn things about people with disabilities. I can I think for me, I can call myself an ally, but it's a provisional term for me because I always need to be humble. I love that, And it kind of sounds too like you're saying like you need to take the time to listen as well, like people aren't doing enough listening. That's real talking. People will be talking like a timeline, like a news feed. Real talk. Let's not talking about news feeds. You know, I forgot your millennium about the next word is liberation, mm hmm. It's so it makes me think about freedom. I love using that term, and I think sometimes it's a grandiose term. Liberation, right, that's the term that I really love to use. It's almost like, so we're in Atlanta. We're in a city that gave birth to Martin Luther King and he I don't know whether he got it from someone or he came up with this um, but there's an idea of the beloved community on earth, right, like, how do we create that beloved community? So for me, whenever I talk about I always use that term liberation. When I talk about intersex liberation, when I talk about black liberation. When I talk about queer liberation, for me, it envisions a utopia. And I don't know if a utopia exists on earth right because right now things in the US are looking kind of dystopic, right, um. But I think it's something that takes us up and beyond our current circumstances. So we're in the South, they're very deep roots in the South. My family has roots in the South. My my mother was from North Carolina. My father was born and raised in Brooklyn, but his dad was from Mississippi, his mother was from Alabama. They have those roots there. A lot of black people have roots in the South. And so you know, as a I'm a college artist. So as a college artist, one of my um the people that I love to reference as Harriet Tubman. It's a shame that they're trying to put on the twenty dollar bill, such hypocrisy. But for her and other people who were confined, who were enslaved, for them to imagine freedom was insane because the conditions at that time meant that they could not be free, right, So they had a vision of liberation that was well beyond their current circumstances. So for me, in this dystopic framework. I'm like, what does it mean to be free? What does it mean to imagine liberation when everyone around you is saying that's impossible? And so for me, it's like the fortitude. It's the fortitude that's the transgression of it that really inspires me. So can you just tell me a little bit about your upbringing, your background, um, your personal story, Like it seems that like your activism is really imbute with a lot of your personal story and uh, like you talk about like you have a really a fondness for the Bronx and like your childhood, like you have great you know, memories that you really talk about UM and your experiences in the medical system and all that. Like, I guess I'm wondering too while as you think about talking about your own personal story, like what is it like to put yourself on the world stage, like that does it feel necessary? And like how is it? How important is it for you to tell your specific story like you this is about you when you're talking. Oh yeah, I think that's an amazing question. I don't know why I got all emotional. I just feeling emotional lately, man, so recently I had UM, I think you would appreciate this as a writer. Um, I had an essay published in this magazine. It's a Southern magazine called Scallawag, And you know I talked about my mom because she died last year, and I'm working on this documentary about my dad. And the way I like to think about those things sort of using their story, using my story, is to talk about how we are so viving or how we have survived the United States, and even when we die, how we can how our spirits kind of speak to that testimony, or that our spirits testify about what it means to survive the United States. And so I think for me, as and an intersex activists, I cannot divorce myself from my blackness or my queerness because it's all happening at the same time. And I think it's my duty and my obligation in a long line of people who have came before me, to be brave and to assert myself and to let people know that I existed, right so when I die, because that's an inevitability, people can say there was this person that existed in his three his name was Shaun sip for Wall. These are the things that he talked about he left evidence that he existed, right. Um. He refused to kind of be boxed in. UM, he complicated things. UM. And So I think in in that survival, in that surviving the United States, I think it's I only have one voice. I'm only one person. But if I can use my voice and my words and my body for the liberation of other people so that they may use their voice and use their words to free more people than God, damn it, so be it. You know. That's that's if that's what I'm tasked with to do. That is what should be done. So that's why I do this work, you know, because I think we never, given our history as black folks, we never ever um, we banded together and we knew our survival, collect our survival was based on collective survival, and that we needed to always be critical of this society in which we live, UM, and that we should never be comfortable. I think there's a moment at which we need to rest. I think resting is important. I think our hearts need to rest our, spirits need to rest. And I think we should always um, we should always be vigilant and always be moving towards like this. This I guess dream or on this path of like liberation because we owe it to the people who will come after us, you know. So that's why that's why I share my That's why I share my story. That's why my story feels important. We'll be right back after this quick break. So you mentioned that you do college art. I'm curious about how that art play is a part in your activism. How do they work together? Um? So, as a college artist, I used found objects, right, and I believe that these objects come together to create new things. And the work I create is a reflection of the circumstances. But I think it also I think as an artist, I feel that I'm a medium through which like spirit can live and talk and breathe and sort of kind of appear on a two dimensional surface. And so the themes that I um engage or employ are themes and um, black liberation, um, the extra judicial killings of black people. Um. But I think I also use my work to speak to power. Right, So the people in my in my all works are not people who are victims or play into tropes that were well familiar with, right, Like, how can we use the spiritual to actually empower people? I don't center power in my work, right, Like I center the most marginalized in my work, and I kind of exalt them or give them dignity. Right. So there was a piece that I just did about President Trump and Paul Ryan's in there, and in the background there's a um, a poor, poor white woman, right, And the title of it was and now they know, but now I'm sort of I think the title of it now would be the Great White Lie, right, because Trump came in as like a hero. He was like, I'm the great White Hope. He's like Obama gave black people hope, I'm gonna give white people hope, right, And he lied to them. He totally lied to them, because he's like what I believe in his money, that's what I actually believe in. But in this piece, you're drawn to the woman, right. You see Trump, he's like this big figure, but your eyes are directly drawn to the white woman who's in black and white and Trump's in color. Right. And so the thing is is like for me, it's always centering like the most marginalizes of my work, Like I sent her black women, I sent her like queerness, like it's directly related to my spiritual practice is related to my activism. It all ties in. Okay, So can you tell me about your documentary? Um? What is about? Um? So, my documentary is called Letters Tune onborn Son, and I think it comes out of my experience of being an intersex activist. And I think I have a really complicated story to tell. But I think sometimes with media, media wants you to tell a certain story. Right. They were like, oh, we want to talk you talk about being black or black, intersex or intersex. And I'm like, oh, there's a there's layers, right, We're not divorced from our layers. I think sometimes we divorce ourselves from our layers for safety, survival and belonging, but we're not divorced from our layers. So this documentary is about my dad who in nineteen nine, he was arrested by the New York Police Department and he was incarcerated for four years. He was charged with attempted murder and he eventually died in prison from eight I think it's so profound about that. One one profound thing is that that was the last time I saw him alive. And it put it in a larger context of state violence. This is the violence that people live with on a daily level. Um, we see it in an international stage. And given that I grew up in the United States, the United States is my context. I talked about state violence as it exists right now. And so, oh, he was arrested, and I think that was a defining moment for me as a young person, to have my parents snatched away and never seen again. It's a traumatic moment. And so probably like two or three years ago, my mom gave me a packet thick packet of um my dad's letters that he wrote while he was in prison. He wrote to me, he wrote to my mom. He wrote over a thousand letters, one for every day that he was incarcerated. And those letters, when I read those letters, I just all these memories started coming back, things that I had suppressed, right because I think to put my life in a context, we're talking about the war on drugs. We're talking about crack flooding inner city communities, destroying like black families. There were a lot of children that ended up and forced to care as a result of crack impacting people those families. And we're talking about the rapid expansion of like the prison prison industrial complex that it's just like man sometimes. But you know, you had the rapid expansion of incarcerating the poor, the black, the most marginalized, the people with mental health issues. And so my dad existed at the cross section of all those. He had mental health issues, he was cracked, addicted, he was substance using, and he was black. And so when I read those letters, it brought back all these memories that I guess I had suppressed, right because I think in that moment, during that time, like I was just trying to survive, like I didn't there was so much instability in my life at that time. I think I was just reacting to my environment and not acting. And I think the letters and the responses to these letters is my way of, right creating this documentary to be an actor, not necessarily acting, but to actually be like, this is his story and this is my story. And there's this intersect story that he had the son that he always wanted but never knew he had, right who became his son. So it's like almost like there's the I guess the three dimensional life physical life conversation, and there's also a spiritual conversation, right, because I do I do believe spiritually I believe that we communicate with ancestors, and ancestors communicate with us. Um so I believe spiritually he's somewhere and he's so much bigger than I can even imagine. But this is like my way of like filling in that gap of the time that he was in prison, Like, these are the things that you missed out on for me, and these are things that happened to me that you probably never knew. I'mly interested in the way you speak about it, like as you being a microcosm for this larger like amplifying a larger conversation essentially on what you're doing. And it seems like activists are so often a voice for the voiceless, like whether that's for people who are too young, are no longer alive to speak for themselves. And I'm wondering, how does having the burden of burden of just being your own person but also taking on other people's issues, tackling those two together, how does that affect your role as an activist having your own, you know, your own issues, and also taking on others and amplifying those. I think the one thing that comes to mind, it's it's a little bit of a jumble. So I'm gonna trying to lay it out as best as they can. Um. I think there's something to be said about really for me, when I come into something, I do it with all my heart and soul. And so a few years ago, I was sort of like in leadership at this organization, and I think in part I left because I didn't feel supported as a leader. I didn't feel supported, And I think I feel like our institutions are set up not to support black people in leadership. Right. I think it's endemic. I think it's an endemic issue. And Obama. You know, Obama wasn't perfect, but Obama didn't have a chance, right. Um. And So I think for me, I always try to bring in an intersectional lens or focus to my work. That word intersectional gets thrown around so much, and I try to bring other people with me. And I think I've had my heartbroken at times because I want those those communities that I'm advocating for, I want them to care as much as by me as I do about them. Right. So, I want black people to care as much about intersex issues as I love black people. I want intersex folks to be as passionate about black liberation as I am passionate about intersex issues, right, and so I think, if I'm honest, I think there have been times when my heart has been broken and I felt sad and I felt angry. And I think it's those times that I've had to step back or step away or just do things that I just I'm really you know, focus on art, focus on my dog, you know. Um So I think, yeah, I think for me, what has been powerful is being able to connect with like my emotions enough to feel those things. Um. So if I haven't answered your question, that's good. Um that brings to mind. You know, how is it that you feel motivated to stay active when it feels like no progress is being made? If it ever does feel like no progress is being made? Eaves Man, thieves, are you like a fly on the wall and some of these meetings like I saw a black panther turned into a fly? Um? Yes, I have that? What content technology? You know? You know? Um, I had to be honest, Eaves, I don't know. I don't know. I think I have this burning desire for justice. I think I have this this desire for liberation and freedom. The way I live my life is about freedom, and so I feel like it's not enough for me to be free, like I want other people to be free. Um. I think I went through that recently, you know, the heartbreak that I was telling you about. Um, that was something very recent for me in the last few years, and I felt very jaded, and for me, it was just a matter of refocusing. Right. So, like while back, I'll take it a little bit further background two thousand five, Like for me, as an early activist, like I would be like really just upset about everything, right, be like I need to tell you about yourself, blah blah blah, You're so fucked up. And I think as I've gotten older, I've been like, mm hmmm, let me pick and choose my battles, right, And I think there's also something about redirecting, redirecting my focus and redirecting my energy. And so for me, when I experienced that heartbreak that I was talking about, I was like, well, what can I it into? And so for me, you know, talking to my homie, my comrade Pigeon is just like how can we So we have like this loose, very loose, not structured kind of project called like the Intersex Justice Project where we're actually kind of putting like our our desires for like our like I love for our people, our love for liberation, and we're putting that into really confronting hospitals about what they're continuing to do the intersex children and infants. So for me, that's an example, right experiencing this heartbreak, feeling like really heartbroken by the intersex community that they're not taking on you know, black liberation right the way that I would like to see it, feeling really kind of use and abused as like a leader, and then being like, well, how can I redirect that and to something I really care about? Right, Like I really care about these parts of my identity, Like how can I redirect that focus into something that I want to do? And I think for me that reduces the resentment, It reduces the bitterness where I can actually be like, Okay, I'm I'm living on purpose. I'm doing what makes me happy that you know, keeps me in alignment with the creator. When you mentioned, you know, redirecting your focus, I guess that makes me think a lot about efficiency and like, you know, how we also have to recognize that a lot of different people are also active and also providing their own roles. So the way that we all come together and convene is really important and what makes the difference, Like, we can't we can't all do everything at once, And so I guess I'm wondering wondering too, Like how important is it for you to have been to be surrounded by uh, like minded people? Are people who are you know, like minded, maybe may not be doing the same thing as you. What role do other people who are also in the community play as far as surrounding you and providing you that sense of community? Yeah, community is so important, right, especially for those of us who are queer or for those of us who really live by a model of chosen family. Like, community is so important because I think community, like we were talking about earlier, like burnout, the activism, feeling disappointed, feeling jaded, Like I think at the end of the day, what keeps us going is the relationships that we have. And I like feel like for me, my community, Like there's this some one who like my best friend, my sister, who I've known since two thousands two. She was the lead organizer at this organization Core Fierce in New York City, right, and we've been friends since two thousand two, like she is, Like we met in social justice community, but we've been like friends ever since, and we've seen each other through the changes, right, And I think just our relationship has taught me a lot about unconditional love. And I think at the end of it, when we start to pair things down and when we get to the heart of it, I think it really speaks to like our relationships with each other, which kind of get us through these hard times. Man, real talk, That's what's gonna get us through these hard times. Real talk. It's our relationships. It's like folks coming through, folks sitting with us, folks feeding us, us, feeding folks, you know, like throwing rant parties when motherfucker's need rent. Like that's that's what's gonna feed us. Ultimately, I don't know if Instagram is gonna feed us. Maybe Instagram can connect us to get fed, you know, but actually it's the relationships that we cultivate is which is gonna feed us. So you have been active in all different parts of the country, right, Can you talk about what active in different parts of the country. Look, you got all the titles, you said it in the beginning, you know, Well, I don't have hose in different areas. I didn't mean it like that. That's funny that I didn't even think about that. UM. Can you talk about some of the differences, similarities and differences if you've seen any in organizing around the country, like in different places, and also talk about UH activism and social justice in places like Atlanta that maybe like Mecca's of liberalism, UM within larger I guess that's for anything in America, because all of America is that conservative, problematic place, but you know, in Atlanta specifically as kind of like a bubble in these bubbles, I guess yeah. I mean, I can only speak to the organ eyes that I've witnessed, because in two thousand four, no probably two thousand five, I was like, I'm not going to be an organizer because I was like, it's a lot of work. It is burning me out. I don't get to see anything. All I do is come home and watch TV. Is not a sustainable lifestyle for me. So I give it up to the organizers who are like out there making it happen. Like I've been recently inspired by the bailouts um that was initiated by Mary Hooks and the folks at Southern News on New Ground. UM, that's been really deeply inspiring. UM. They've been in coalition with other UH groups here in the metro Atlanta area to really um push for the end of cash bail and other like, to really push like our government, our city government, to stop criminalizing folks for quality of life issues. Right. UM. So I think that's since firing here in Atlanta, right because I think sometimes Atlanta can really and you know, you're from Atlanta, You're from Atlanta. I'm coming out as an outsider, so I just want to let that be the you've been here long enough for you. Yeah, that's not one of those bese like I, but you know what you could be. And I'll defer you know what you got it. But I think that Atlanta kind of rests on its laurels, right, being like, oh, we're the birthplace of Martin Luther King and we're about civil rights and so forth and song. Meanwhile, every corporation has a building in Atlanta, right. And I think what I've seen living in Southwest Atlanta is the disproportionate displacement of like the poor in the disregard for the black poor here in the city. Right that prides itself on civil rights and human rights. So it's been really inspiring, especially with the advent of Black Lives Matter, just to see um, young people, your millennium folks getting like turned up and really, um just doing a level of organizing that has been unpressed. I wouldn't say unprecedented, but has been unprecedented in a long time, right, because I think we all got a little bit comfortable, um. And so I think that's been inspiring to watch, um because I think the youth energy is what carries us forward. That I think, I mean, when we look at social movements, it's been inspired by so many young people, right, um. And so I think what I've witnessed is this, this this energy, this this really this fervor that I hope we can keep stoking that fire, right. And I think as the conditions get more harsh and more cruel, it's going to require people to be out in the stries. Right. Like when I was out in Chicago, motherfucker's are like ready, you're here. People are ready, they are like watching. And I think what's really interesting and strategic about the organizing that's going on in Chicago is that people are informing each other about each other's movements, because I think sometimes what happens is that power, the powers that exists in the United States, they play upon the division that exists that people are not informed about other people's movements, right, And I think when people educate each other on each other's movements, like their tactics, their strategies, their liberation ideologies, I think that serves as a great force for change. It might be idealistic on my part, right, but I think I kind of think about the stories that I've heard of so safer existence in New York City where I'm from, This Sylvia Rivera and the trans women who started Star. I think it's a street transvestite at and revolutionists. I forgot, I forgot the hard to keep up with the acronyms, you know what I'm saying. All I remember it as it's Star. And they were in conversation with the Young Lords, which was this Puerto Rican gang that existed in the South Bronx in Harlem in New York City, Right, And the Young Lords actually had respect and admiration and love for these trans women. Right. They were in conversation with each other's movements because they're like we're all getting arrested, we're all getting our ass kicked, we're all getting like fucking beat up and raped by the cops. Right, so we have to we we have to be kind of like on the pulse of what each other is doing. And I'm like, what would that look like, right, what would that look like if as part of our organizing strategies, if we're really like, oh, I may not agree, and I've seen this, and I've seen this recently, right, Like people like m I may not agree or understand the transgenders, or I may not be comfortable with the queers, but I can also say that, like, your liberation is tied in with my liberation, and I'm gonna fight, you know, and maybe there's a campaign that we can work on. Maybe there's points of overlap, right, And I think that's what made here in Atlanta, That's what me the cash Baill ordinance come into effect because people were like, I mean not understand the transgenders. I may not necessarily want to hear about your same sex relationship. But the thing is, cash bail affects everyone. If you're poor, you're living on the street, you don't have money, it affects you right, and groups were able to come together on that platform. So I'm I'm hoping that we can see more of that in the coming weeks, months, and years. Yeah, that conversation about seeing other people struggles even if they don't understand it or not really telles it and say you're spiritual like to me, really reminds me of a spiritual conversation as well about a lot of people don't understand about connectedness and that that we're too focused on the revisions and the binaries and the separation of each other when at the end of the day, we are all part of the same lab. You'll hear more from Seifa after this short break. So also was thinking about, um, you know how we all are focused on you know, we're all different. Like, if there's one thing we would have realized by now is that we're all different and that we're still learning. Why do you think that we as humans, but as Americans in particular, are so obsessed with what's normal. This idea of normalcy is very compelling. It's very compelling for parents, right, Um, so for me it's like speaking as an intersex activists. The reason why pay parrants are duped into these surgeries for their kids is because of this compelling notion of normalcy. I don't think normalcy exists, right, something that we definitely created. Um. It's based on very old, very white, very uh male, white male notions of what it means to be normal that a lot of people don't fit into. I don't think even some of these white men fit into, right. And I mean, I mean, wow, normalcy, normalcy. I think it's actually very oppressive, and I think that's what's dictating the legists, the very biased legislation that's coming out. I think it's filling up our jails and our prisons, um, because even though it's driven by money, it's also driven by what we consider normal. Because if we deem someone is not being normal, it's easier for us to persecute them. Right, even especially when we're talking about the state, Right, if someone is not normal, then it's like, oh, then what is it? I forgot. I saw a headline recently where there was a state maybe it was California, but I don't know if it was California where they adopted UM into law that people with disabilities would be paid the same as other people. Right, And you'll be like shouldn't everybody get be getting paid the same, But because of like how we think about people who are disabled, it's like, Okay, it's okay not to pay them as much because we don't consider them normal, you know, But then what the funk is normal? But whatever it is, it's definitely very oppressive. It's creating some false sense of security, I guess, so some false narratives, I guess. So how do you think the current state of America affecting the way that people, um want to be involved in activism? Mm hmm. I think only time will tell. I think it's one and this is just my perspective. So I think there are people who are getting really pumped, right. I think it's really galvanizing people because I think it's interesting that, I guess we even though extra judicial killings by police of black people have existed for a long time, it was interesting under the Obama administration that it became a very central issue, right um. And I think that with Trump's administration it's definitely been like, Oh, people are definitely seeing because I think the effects, the profound of the effects are profound, like his his administration and the Republicans and people who were supporting him are just taking the opportunity to channel all of their bias and codify their bias. And these are quotified laws that we've lived with that are inherently biased. But um yeah, I think it's just I think it's the time that is going to motivate people to action or it's gonna actually gonna scare people because I feel like I talked to people who are scared, righteously scared, right, like especially with homeland security, with the CIA, FBI, Like people have every right to be scared because who wants to like rot in prison or be executed by the state. Right. So I think as we're moving, as the pressure is kind of pushing us in, I think it's either going to get people into action or people are going to be moved to inaction. So, um, let's change pace, okay, and let's talk about healing. Okay, So what do you think some modes of healing from trauma? And I know you mentioned semantics. I just want to know more about that. Well you know, um, so there's an organization in Oakland, California called Generative Semantics, and semantics is about movement right engaging the body, So anything can be semantic. Right, you do yoga, that's a semantic form of movement, right, Um. It engages the body. Us sitting here talking semantic movement. Um. But there's some semantic practices that actually speak to trauma. And I think the way I like to think about trauma. I don't know if I have a clear definition of trauma, but the way I think about it is that there are these points in history that become like frozen that frees us, um, that allow us to move forward. Because I think if the brain took in all the information, the psychic information and physical information, the brain has a beautiful way of filtering so that we don't you know, go nuttie. It just has it has to be able to do that. But I think we're in order to get through really hard points in our life, it has to I guess it has to freeze around that. And I think I've seen it in my own life. I've seen it well do people. When we get to a place where it reaches kind of where we're in the place of homeo stasis, that's when the body starts releasing the things, starts releasing the toxins, right, Because if you have to kind of muscle through something you're just kind of like muscling through. It's adrenaline is like these physical processes and a body. UM. So all that to say UM for me, I had done UM child sexual abuse training in two thousand and eight, and I was like, well, you know, I don't consider myself a survivor, so forth and so on in that way. And when I was going through this three day training, like every day after the training, like my body would literally lock up, like my muscles were just like cramp up. It was. It was bad. And I talked to a friend and she was like, you're having a semantic response to the content. What what are you talking about? Myself? What you're talking about? I think from then on that's when I was like, well, how do I start unlocking this trauma? And I got involved with this organization called Generative Semantics, and their focus is on addressing trauma through semantic um practices. And they see that trauma is shaped by oppression, because there's the trauma that we experience, and there's trauma shaped by oppression the systemic uh, the systemic the systemic oppression, right that affects people, It affects the body. What has there been study saying that people don't live is long because of the impact of racism. We've known that it causes high blood pressure, all these different health conditions, but now it's actually documented, right, So it impacts our bodies, then it impacts our psyches. And so for me, I see healing so beautifully and intimately high with liberation, right because for me, the trauma that I've in that I've received has been at the level of the body. Right. It's like imagine someone who's in prison, who's been locked down, like literally being in solitary confinement for years at a time. Time that is maddening when people come out on the other side of that. We're doing that to human beings. So it's one thing to talk about it in therapy, and I think that works for people sometime. Sometimes it works for me, And I think there's something else about really being with someone, really being with their body, to say, like you can rest in this moment, you can rest and you can release all of those toxins, all of that pain that you just had to contain. Right. There's also the element of being able to recognize the trauma first before you get to address it. And I know that there are a lot of people who haven't gotten to that point yet, you know, so, I guess how I'm wondering how you think that if you have an answer, we can get to the point collectively and we can all talk to each other about recognizing it, first realizing that it's a reality, and then moving forward to address it. M mmmmm. Eaves come in with two deep questions. Wow, I mean, I think that would be beautiful, right if we can talk about what we have experienced without shame, Because I think the isolating thing about trauma shame, Like how does someone who has been raped by their father, how do they talk about that trauma? Or a man who's been raped by another man, how does he talk about that without necessarily confronting shame? I mean, I think there's so much shame around. I think we have a society that shames us. Um, we have a society that breeds um sort of isolation and being disconnected from each other, being disconnected from ourselves. Right. So I think on a collective level, man, I wish there can be as many people doing healing work as there are soldiers, right, Um, people who can really sit with other people's pain, like we were talking about earlier, right, Like the art of conversation, the art of listening. Like, I think it may not necessarily be on that systemic level yet, but what does it mean if I'm sitting across from you, looking at you in your eyes, like listening to what you're saying, and like allowing what you're sharing with me allowed to impact me, right, and what I share impact you. I mean, it doesn't have to be on this broader level um of collective healing, but I think if it can just start there, right, if we're talking to each other, not like we're talking on Facebook on Instagram, but really like being with each other and not trying to fix it, not trying to change it, not trying to be like, oh, you need to see a therapist or you know, blah blah blah, because people do that too. Right. It's just like you come with the problem, or you come with something that's really on your heart, and immediately a lot of people go into some you know, um kind of like this mote of like, oh, let me, let me address that. Because I think sometimes it's hard for us to sit with other people's emotions, to sit with people's sadness, to sit with people's rage, you know, because I feel like our society really is sterilizing unless it's in these ways that we're we come to expect. So if it's like we watch this oph still have a show, she has a whole network her own, she's manifesting and calling it own. Let me tell you, let me tell you. Right, So if we're if we actually tune in, then we can prepare ourselves for somebody's emotions. But what is it What if we are just allow ourselves just to kind of be with someone's emotions and not have it be structured. You brought up the idea of, like when we were at the meeting a couple of weekends ago, about there being a sort of violence in the communication between a therapist or psychologist and the person who they're talking to. Can you talk a little bit about that, um idea. Yeah, I mean I think I think sometimes in order, I think sometimes we can be really disconnected, especially if we're in academia, especially if we in these professions where there's like a hard boundary between us and the other person. I think it's a violence that happens, especially we're talking about trauma, especially we're talking about people's histories. UM, Because I think it's our we are obligated to be really present with people, especially if they're talking about trauma, right, to be sort of like if I'm a psychologist, if I'm a therapist and I'm just removed and taking notes or it's listening but you know, waiting so I can share my opinion. You know, it's just like I feel like it's a disservice. Like for me, I see a therapist who's wonderful and amazing. Her name is Mark Collins here in Atlanta, Georgia. And what makes her so dope is that, um, she's able to sort of be with me in my experience, like she really directly relates to my experience, and in ways if she can't relate to my experience, I'm still able to feel like really heard and really held in that right. Um So yeah, I think it's it's part of the larger conversation we've been having about like can we sit with people's pain, you know, whether we be professional or not in our role, Like can we be with people's pain? Because there's a lot of pain in the world right now, it seems like people are also having a really hard time, like when it comes to bodies understanding autonomy and choice and scent and how do you how should we are how do we go about dealing with this idea that other people have control over our own bodies? Essentially somebody else owns it, even though that might not be in practice or something that's legislatively happening, or although it is in those conversations, but just the conversation between um, those in power and those who are oppressed. Um, the uh, that manifestation of that somebody owns your body. I mean I wish people. I wish people would talk about it, you know. So I totally get so angry and annoyed at these legislators, who are men who want to pass legs slation about women's bodies that makes no sense, right, So they don't necessarily come out and say we own your body, but all of this conversation suggests that they do, right. Um. And so I think in order to recognize people's body autonomy, we have to see them as human first. And I think the problem is we don't see people as human. So the example that I think about is for people who are incarcerated, people who are locked down, they're considered property of the state. Like I've talked to formally incarcerated people and when if they do, you know, especially if they're in solitary, if they're suicidal, that's considered damaging state property. Funk out of here. That is bananas, right, um, And so we don't necessarily maybe more so with prison, we may be like these, these bodies are property of the state, but we don't. And because of that, by extension, it's just like, well, because those people are bad because they're in prison, they have no rights, they have no right to body, the autonomy, so we can do anything like back in the day, not still going on, but the sterilization of women in prison, like these are things that have happened because they're not considered human. Um. So if I'm wondering, like if what what needs to shift in our society for people to actually be seen as human where their bodies can be respected, And I think it's a it's a really important conversation that's happening right now that you touched on, right in light of like the me too and I think there was another hashtag going around. Um, but again, women's bodies are not seen as there's right, Like women's bodies are seeing for the pleasure and for the dominance of men and masculinity. That's the problem, you know, like with intersex kids, it's just like intersex people are not seeing as human. So it's just like, yeah, let's just cut these people up to make them normal. Going to what we were talking about around normalcy, So I wonder what needs to happen and what needs to shift in our society where we actually start to humanize people. Okay, so we're gonna switch back a little bit again to to talk about activism, and that's cool with you. There seems to be a lot of misinformation going around and that you know, fact based evidence and research and truth is not always a large it's not an expected part of conversations a lot of the time. Now, how much does just straight education play a role in your activism? Like just here are the facts, and if you want to speak to the larger idea of facts and misinformation in our culture around social justice right now, then that's cool too. You know. For me, I feel like we can talk about facts because there are some people who love facts, right. They don't want to hear your personal story, They just want to hear the facts. So I can tell my personal story and they'd be like well, what are the numbers of children born intersex? So for me, I think right now what feels very important is for people kind of like what I was saying before around people being human or being humanized. I think we can talk about so when we talk about folks who are being deported, we can give numbers about the number of deportations that happen every year. But what happens when we actually hear the stories and the impact it has on people's lives and family structure is right, like literally ice agents coming in in the middle of the night and removing people, or you know, a father dropping his daughter off to school and she never sees her dad again because he's picked up and deported. Right, Um, so what happens? Like, I think I'm really interested. I think facts are important, um, but I think sometimes facts can be debated, right because you come with one set of facts and then someone comes with another setis facts. Um, but I think there's something about people's stories that feels really important, Like how do we really um share our stories and let those stories manifest on like a bigger level. That's why I'm really inspired by people's stories that I'm hearing of, Like people who are Muslim and who are being attacked, or like people who have family members who are being hoarded, or trans folks who are like, you know, this legislation is like literally trying to take away my body autonomy and really is killing me on a like micro and macro level. We can debate facts, but I think it's like I'm appreciating these stories that really humanize these facts, that work in tandem with these facts. So I want to wrap up with on a positive note, positivity. What is something that makes you happy right now that you see going on in the social justice community. Um, I think there there's a there's a few things that make me happy, I think, And this iteration of black liberation, I think it's really dope to see, like how we are just really appreciative and how much we love each other. You know, it may be superficial, some of us may believe it more than others, but I think it's really like with the Premier Black Panther, like people were showing out doing all of the things, and I was here for it, right because I think I'm like, oh wow, this is like really just dope to see. And I think just I think people were just really kind of stepping up um and like finding back. But also I think people aren't ploying different like tactics. You know, it's not about like this, I think with some people and maybe, but it's not about this like hard I'm going to organize, I'm gonna you know, leave people behind. But I feel like there's like inclusivity like the founders of Black Lives Matter, three black women right who were really sent ring like queer people, trans people right, like this is this is amazing. This that's to me like inspiring. I'm inspired by people who are like having conversations about around how can we heal relationships in our movements because I think sometimes it's in fighting that happens in social justice movements that can legit tear movements apart. Distrust, dishonesty, backstabbing, you know, these are things that can really impact our movements. And I'm glad that people are really starting to have those conversations. And I'm inspired by like the young people, Like I think, for me, it feels like a good time to be alive because I think when Trump got elected, people were just like, this is the end of the world. I might as well give up here, you know, And in spite of that, for some people, when the shocks subsided, people were like, Oh, I'm gonna use my voice. I'm gonna use my stories to speak to the injustices that I'm witnessing right now. So I feel like this is a great time for art. This is a great time for making art. If you're an artist and you're making political art, this is a dope time to be doing it right, like, because you can really get some messages across, you can really speak to people. Um. So I think sometimes especially when I'm on Facebook, I'm a relic um looking at my timeline just seeing what people are talking about, it can be depressing and I can really feel like bummed out and feel despaired, especially when reading about state violence and just reading about like these things that are just like this is heinous, this is heinous. I feel scared, I feel hopeless. But then then I also feel like they're like glimmers of like like hope. You know, by the things that I mentioned, I was like, Oh, this gives me a hope, like to go back to I was talking about earlier about liberation, Like this gives me the wings to transgress these current conditions. I think that's a great note to you. Did that so poetically? Look at that you know, I know you appreciate that. Do so. Now that you've heard more from Sifa, I wanted to let you all know that we have a lot of other great interviews that we're going to let you all here in the coming weeks, So look forward to that. Afro Punk Solution Sessions is a co production between Afro Punk and How Stuff Works. Your hosts are Bridget Todd and Eve's Jeff Cope. Executive co producers are Julie Douglas, Jocelyn Cooper and quand Latif Hill. Dylan Fagan is supervising producer and audio engineer. Many many thanks to Casey Pegram and Anti Reese for their production and editorial oversight, and many thanks to her on the ground Atlanta crew Ben Bowland, Corey Oliver and Noel Brown. The Underside of Power is performed by Algiers. Connect with us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram at afropul.