What you're about to listen to is part two of the two part series of a conversation I had with Brene Brown and Adam Grant. It will be interesting to listen to, but I recommend you go listen to the first part first because we make all kinds of references to that first part. I hope you enjoy Part two of my conversation with Brene Brown and Adam Grant. This is a bit of optimism.

What you're about to listen to is part two of the two part series of a conversation I had with Brene Brown and Adam Grant. It will be interesting to listen to, but I recommend you go listen to the first part first because we make all kinds of references to that first part. I hope you enjoy Part two of my conversation with Brene Brown and Adam Grant. This is a bit of optimism.

People are so shocked by their own values and people want to be People don't want them. They want to orphan They want.

People are so shocked by their own values and people want to be People don't want them. They want to orphan They want.

To an example of that. Give an example.

To an example of that. Give an example.

They want to orphan them.

They want to orphan them.

Give an example, Like are they I'm learning this value about my worldview? Like I'm okay with it.

Give an example, Like are they I'm learning this value about my worldview? Like I'm okay with it.

Okay. So what we do is we have a list and there's there's like, I don't know, one hundred and fifty things on there. We just reverse engineering. So we started. This was the research that started like fifteen eighteen years ago where we found that some of the most transformational leaders really had two values. They didn't have twenty. They had two, and they had a lot of things were important to them, but there were really one or two where everything else was forged, and so they circled fifteen or twenty and they're like, we're not limiting it. We're not limiting it. And I said, which two here are essential to you getting out of bed, to you functioning? And this is where they get super irate because they, the majority of them, do not want to take family out. And so like two, My two values are courage and faith. And I've really struggled for many years about curiosity as a value. But what I realize is that I'm my bravest when I'm curious, and so that curiosity for me requires a lot of courage. And so we do this exercise. So they come up with these two and then they operationalize them into behaviors. Then they have to find indicator warning lights for misalignment from these When have they stepped out of them? What do they feel in their bodies? When did they live into them? What did they feel in their bodies? And people are just really frustrated because when you know your values and you understand what, I don't think they mean anything. I feel the same way about corporate values. If they're not operationalized into observable behaviors, they're jack that they mean they're just bullshit to make right right. Yeah. And so once they see these values operationalized into behaviors, they go through like a Koobler Ross grief thing where they're like, wow, have I been an asshole because I'm living outside of my values around this issue?

Okay. So what we do is we have a list and there's there's like, I don't know, one hundred and fifty things on there. We just reverse engineering. So we started. This was the research that started like fifteen eighteen years ago where we found that some of the most transformational leaders really had two values. They didn't have twenty. They had two, and they had a lot of things were important to them, but there were really one or two where everything else was forged, and so they circled fifteen or twenty and they're like, we're not limiting it. We're not limiting it. And I said, which two here are essential to you getting out of bed, to you functioning? And this is where they get super irate because they, the majority of them, do not want to take family out. And so like two, My two values are courage and faith. And I've really struggled for many years about curiosity as a value. But what I realize is that I'm my bravest when I'm curious, and so that curiosity for me requires a lot of courage. And so we do this exercise. So they come up with these two and then they operationalize them into behaviors. Then they have to find indicator warning lights for misalignment from these When have they stepped out of them? What do they feel in their bodies? When did they live into them? What did they feel in their bodies? And people are just really frustrated because when you know your values and you understand what, I don't think they mean anything. I feel the same way about corporate values. If they're not operationalized into observable behaviors, they're jack that they mean they're just bullshit to make right right. Yeah. And so once they see these values operationalized into behaviors, they go through like a Koobler Ross grief thing where they're like, wow, have I been an asshole because I'm living outside of my values around this issue?

So good?

So good?

And I'm like god, I, oh no, what do you think? And they're like, yeah, I'm completely misaligned. Every every indicator on the dashlot, the dashboard is going off, but I keep showing up the same way.

And I'm like god, I, oh no, what do you think? And they're like, yeah, I'm completely misaligned. Every every indicator on the dashlot, the dashboard is going off, but I keep showing up the same way.

This is so good. And it goes back to the old thing, like we don't learn anything when things go right. We learn things when things go wrong.

This is so good. And it goes back to the old thing, like we don't learn anything when things go right. We learn things when things go wrong.

Right, Oh, for sure.

Right, Oh, for sure.

It's like you know all of the all the metaphors, you don't you know, you kind of judge a crew by how the ship performs in calm waters. You can only judge a crew by how I ship performs in rough wards blah blah blah. You know. It's it's the same thing here, which is things going wrong reveals. And I love this exercise of going through not when I nailed it, but when I got angry or frustrated. And the anger one is particularly interesting because I'm not a very angry person. But when I get angry, it's it's it.

It's like you know all of the all the metaphors, you don't you know, you kind of judge a crew by how the ship performs in calm waters. You can only judge a crew by how I ship performs in rough wards blah blah blah. You know. It's it's the same thing here, which is things going wrong reveals. And I love this exercise of going through not when I nailed it, but when I got angry or frustrated. And the anger one is particularly interesting because I'm not a very angry person. But when I get angry, it's it's it.

Hurts when I hear your story about you know, it reminds me of Stephen Kobe. Like I don't know, was this book written like thirty years ago? Seven habits I don't even remember, but like the guy who takes up to parking place or the person who's shitty on the train, And I remember that story he tells about being on the train and someone saying, Wow, your kids are really out of control here, and the guy kind of looked at the guy who was being critical and said, I'm sorry. We're on the way home from the hospital. My wife died a couple of hours ago, and I think my kids just don't even know how to show up right now. And I it just reminds me so much of being in my values when people are not behaving as I need them to behave.

Hurts when I hear your story about you know, it reminds me of Stephen Kobe. Like I don't know, was this book written like thirty years ago? Seven habits I don't even remember, but like the guy who takes up to parking place or the person who's shitty on the train, And I remember that story he tells about being on the train and someone saying, Wow, your kids are really out of control here, and the guy kind of looked at the guy who was being critical and said, I'm sorry. We're on the way home from the hospital. My wife died a couple of hours ago, and I think my kids just don't even know how to show up right now. And I it just reminds me so much of being in my values when people are not behaving as I need them to behave.

I'm just struck per day.

I'm just struck per day.

At first, I thought you were going to tell us a story about people wanting to change their values once they discovered they don't like them. And it's quite the opposite, right, that people are discovering their behaviors are not in line with their values.

At first, I thought you were going to tell us a story about people wanting to change their values once they discovered they don't like them. And it's quite the opposite, right, that people are discovering their behaviors are not in line with their values.

Yes, that's exactly right. That's the variable that moves. And one of the most amazing process that we use with teams is we have everyone write their name on a big post it, like one of the eleven by seventeen post it's, write their name, write their two values, and then everyone on the team fills out a sticky note with the story about when they saw that person living into their values and what it meant for them. And so like everybody in our office has a big sticky note. I mean, I have mine on the side of a file cabinet that has my name, my values, and what it looks like from other people when they see me in them this you know what this.

Yes, that's exactly right. That's the variable that moves. And one of the most amazing process that we use with teams is we have everyone write their name on a big post it, like one of the eleven by seventeen post it's, write their name, write their two values, and then everyone on the team fills out a sticky note with the story about when they saw that person living into their values and what it meant for them. And so like everybody in our office has a big sticky note. I mean, I have mine on the side of a file cabinet that has my name, my values, and what it looks like from other people when they see me in them this you know what this.

Is also speaking to you, which is when people make lists of like what's important them in relationship, Like what are the five values you want to a partner? Like what are the you know, like would make a list of the things you want and if you make the list, you'll get them and blah blah blah. You know. And I've done these exercises, and I'm I'm a professional at failed relationships, by the way, Like I've taken the advice of people like write the ten things that are non negotiable in your partner right and I've done that. You can't. First of all, I'm not getting all ten. Nobody ever does. But I'm realizing from this exercise that what I need to do is I need to make that list two things, like what are the non negotiables that if this person doesn't have these two things, then no go because and it goes to the and it goes. It speaks directly to the executives that you're dealing with, which is we human beings are gifted with the remarkable ability to rationalize anything. You know, I can rationalize how much I'm spending because I can tell you how much I'm saving. You know. My favorite one is people who sell their company like they built good companies, they're like triple bottom line, take care of their people. They have a bazillion dollar exit, and they sold it to, you know, some awful private equity company who's milking it, destroying it, breaking it and undoing everything. And then I say to these CEOs, how can you say you wanted to build an impact company if you sold it to them, why not take less money? Did you need three hundred million? Maybe two hundred and fifty was enough? Like you sold it to that company and they broke it. How can you call yourself an impact CEO? And they can rationalize the shit out of it to make themselves feel better for taking the money. And I think when you get it down to those two things, whether it's who do I sell my company to? Who do I date? You know, how do I lead? Who am I? I think I find this, I find this unbelievably powerful. Just two things.

Is also speaking to you, which is when people make lists of like what's important them in relationship, Like what are the five values you want to a partner? Like what are the you know, like would make a list of the things you want and if you make the list, you'll get them and blah blah blah. You know. And I've done these exercises, and I'm I'm a professional at failed relationships, by the way, Like I've taken the advice of people like write the ten things that are non negotiable in your partner right and I've done that. You can't. First of all, I'm not getting all ten. Nobody ever does. But I'm realizing from this exercise that what I need to do is I need to make that list two things, like what are the non negotiables that if this person doesn't have these two things, then no go because and it goes to the and it goes. It speaks directly to the executives that you're dealing with, which is we human beings are gifted with the remarkable ability to rationalize anything. You know, I can rationalize how much I'm spending because I can tell you how much I'm saving. You know. My favorite one is people who sell their company like they built good companies, they're like triple bottom line, take care of their people. They have a bazillion dollar exit, and they sold it to, you know, some awful private equity company who's milking it, destroying it, breaking it and undoing everything. And then I say to these CEOs, how can you say you wanted to build an impact company if you sold it to them, why not take less money? Did you need three hundred million? Maybe two hundred and fifty was enough? Like you sold it to that company and they broke it. How can you call yourself an impact CEO? And they can rationalize the shit out of it to make themselves feel better for taking the money. And I think when you get it down to those two things, whether it's who do I sell my company to? Who do I date? You know, how do I lead? Who am I? I think I find this, I find this unbelievably powerful. Just two things.

I think that makes so much sense.

I think that makes so much sense.

I mean, I I think I'd be comfortable with three to five.

I mean, I I think I'd be comfortable with three to five.

That is a lot.

That is a lot.

But there's a little bit of a paradox in here. At minimum, I think they have to be rank ordered so that you can figure out what your priorities are.

But there's a little bit of a paradox in here. At minimum, I think they have to be rank ordered so that you can figure out what your priorities are.

But the paradox is five.

But the paradox is five.

In ranked order? Great? Do ten?

In ranked order? Great? Do ten?

Do?

Do?

Five? Doesn't matter? It's only one and two that matter.

Five? Doesn't matter? It's only one and two that matter.

Well, yes, okay, So let's let's say you have your rank order list of two or three or five or whatever. The question is what happens when you have to assess those relationships specific So we've we've all met narcissists who are great to you know, to their distant interactions, their acquaintances, but then horrible to the people who are close to them.

Well, yes, okay, So let's let's say you have your rank order list of two or three or five or whatever. The question is what happens when you have to assess those relationships specific So we've we've all met narcissists who are great to you know, to their distant interactions, their acquaintances, but then horrible to the people who are close to them.

And we also know people.

And we also know people.

Who might show up as kind in relationships with us, but treat others really poorly. Yeah, Like, do they have to embody your values in all relationships or is it enough for them to be that way with you?

Who might show up as kind in relationships with us, but treat others really poorly. Yeah, Like, do they have to embody your values in all relationships or is it enough for them to be that way with you?

No? Yeah, no, I don't. I don't see it that way. I don't see it that way because.

No? Yeah, no, I don't. I don't see it that way. I don't see it that way because.

I want to know their character.

I want to know their character.

Yeah, I think, yeah, I think I want to know that.

Yeah, I think, yeah, I think I want to know that.

Because we've all experienced it. We've all been treated nicely because we're the keynote speaker, the blah blah blah.

Because we've all experienced it. We've all been treated nicely because we're the keynote speaker, the blah blah blah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah right, and then you see the way they treat their staff. I don't want yeah, right, Like I want you know what did Dave Barry say? You know, did you notice that? Did you notice that? I remember who said it?

Yeah right, and then you see the way they treat their staff. I don't want yeah, right, Like I want you know what did Dave Barry say? You know, did you notice that? Did you notice that? I remember who said it?

Keep going?

Keep going?

Creditor is due, like Dave barr said. Nice people who aren't nice to the waiter aren't nice people.

Creditor is due, like Dave barr said. Nice people who aren't nice to the waiter aren't nice people.

Oh god. Yeah, it's the first thing I taught my kids about dating. If you see someone mistreat mistreat someone in the service industry, run for your life. So to me, the consistent application of values or the consistent values alignment is character.

Oh god. Yeah, it's the first thing I taught my kids about dating. If you see someone mistreat mistreat someone in the service industry, run for your life. So to me, the consistent application of values or the consistent values alignment is character.

Yes, I agree with that. I think where it kids more the hierarchical. Part of that is easy, right if they're treating people differently based on status or power, like no, thanks, yeah. I think where it gets more complicated is when it starts to I guess spill into in group outcrypt dynamics.

Yes, I agree with that. I think where it kids more the hierarchical. Part of that is easy, right if they're treating people differently based on status or power, like no, thanks, yeah. I think where it gets more complicated is when it starts to I guess spill into in group outcrypt dynamics.

Are they kinder to.

Are they kinder to.

People that they feel more comfortable with or you know, who have something in common with them? And then do we have to care about how they treat people that they you know, they might not have any kind of connection with. That's where I struggle more.

People that they feel more comfortable with or you know, who have something in common with them? And then do we have to care about how they treat people that they you know, they might not have any kind of connection with. That's where I struggle more.

I've been dealing with this recently and whether this is right or wrong. This is where I'm at, which is I actually adjust my standard with someone's age. So somebody who's in their twenties, and you know, when we were younger, we all said stupid things to fit in, you know, made it, puffed ourselves up, unnecessarily mean about somebody who wasn't there. We've all done it because we wanted to fit in and feel included. Right by your thirties, like, you should be learning some of that stuff, but maybe some of those insecurities creep back in forties. You're entitled to like a mistake or two, but when you start getting older, you should be aware enough that if you're feeling insecure, just shut up, right, Like, and I now hold older people to a higher standard because they've had enough life experience that they should know better younger people, I show a little more grace.

I've been dealing with this recently and whether this is right or wrong. This is where I'm at, which is I actually adjust my standard with someone's age. So somebody who's in their twenties, and you know, when we were younger, we all said stupid things to fit in, you know, made it, puffed ourselves up, unnecessarily mean about somebody who wasn't there. We've all done it because we wanted to fit in and feel included. Right by your thirties, like, you should be learning some of that stuff, but maybe some of those insecurities creep back in forties. You're entitled to like a mistake or two, but when you start getting older, you should be aware enough that if you're feeling insecure, just shut up, right, Like, and I now hold older people to a higher standard because they've had enough life experience that they should know better younger people, I show a little more grace.

So this this gets really complicated in the Let's let's take a specific example. Your kids are friends with somebody who's great to them, but maybe not to other kids.

So this this gets really complicated in the Let's let's take a specific example. Your kids are friends with somebody who's great to them, but maybe not to other kids.

No, do you tolerate that?

No, do you tolerate that?

No? And I don't. I don't have an age ranking. I have a I have a full application all times, all groups, all people.

No? And I don't. I don't have an age ranking. I have a I have a full application all times, all groups, all people.

Doesn't mean I excuse the behavior. It doesn't mean I excuse the behavior, but I allow for the fact that there's a learning curve happening. And that I mean I do share of the kids, the kids who miss who are nice to your kids but not nice other kids. You'd find a way to have that conversation to teach the kids.

Doesn't mean I excuse the behavior. It doesn't mean I excuse the behavior, but I allow for the fact that there's a learning curve happening. And that I mean I do share of the kids, the kids who miss who are nice to your kids but not nice other kids. You'd find a way to have that conversation to teach the kids.

That's that's grace you're offering, right, And I think the thing is that, like, Okay, let's take this wider and.

That's that's grace you're offering, right, And I think the thing is that, like, Okay, let's take this wider and.

Less with a fifty year old, like, you should know better, you know?

Less with a fifty year old, like, you should know better, you know?

And I think I would never want to be dismissed by someone I'm in a relationship with a colleague, a partner, a child, a friend, because I have operated or behaved outside of my values. And so it's not like one step outside your values and you're dead to me because I'm outside my values. I mean, I struggle with it every day sometimes. But I think if I've got a child and they've got a friend who's very kind to them, but it is unkind to other people, that's going to be problematic, and we're going to talk about the ramifications of that, and we're going to talk about what that means, how that makes them feel, what happens when they observe that, and not saying anything is outside of their own values. And so I think it's I don't think values are situational. I think the expression of behaviors are situational.

And I think I would never want to be dismissed by someone I'm in a relationship with a colleague, a partner, a child, a friend, because I have operated or behaved outside of my values. And so it's not like one step outside your values and you're dead to me because I'm outside my values. I mean, I struggle with it every day sometimes. But I think if I've got a child and they've got a friend who's very kind to them, but it is unkind to other people, that's going to be problematic, and we're going to talk about the ramifications of that, and we're going to talk about what that means, how that makes them feel, what happens when they observe that, and not saying anything is outside of their own values. And so I think it's I don't think values are situational. I think the expression of behaviors are situational.

Oh very good, good distinction good, very well put, very well put.

Oh very good, good distinction good, very well put, very well put.

And I'll tell you one thing, Adam, that I think about a lot too to your question, And this is like a hard thing, but very early on I started thinking about compliance versus commitment with my kids. So my youngest distress graduate from high school, he's off to college. My daughter is twenty five getting her PhD. They're spreading their wings. In the early days of parenting, it's all about compliance. You don't go in the street because I said, you don't go in the street, you don't watch it, you don't play these violent video games. But at some point, if there's not deep discussions about values and friends and things, when it's time for compliance to turn into commitment because you're not controlling that you were really struggle. And I think the same is true. I hate to use parenting because in work it vantilizes some, but I think the same is true when you're building a team. If you have to have a team operating within a set of values as compliance, you're just dead.

And I'll tell you one thing, Adam, that I think about a lot too to your question, And this is like a hard thing, but very early on I started thinking about compliance versus commitment with my kids. So my youngest distress graduate from high school, he's off to college. My daughter is twenty five getting her PhD. They're spreading their wings. In the early days of parenting, it's all about compliance. You don't go in the street because I said, you don't go in the street, you don't watch it, you don't play these violent video games. But at some point, if there's not deep discussions about values and friends and things, when it's time for compliance to turn into commitment because you're not controlling that you were really struggle. And I think the same is true. I hate to use parenting because in work it vantilizes some, but I think the same is true when you're building a team. If you have to have a team operating within a set of values as compliance, you're just dead.

Which is ironic that there's entire departments in certain companies called compliance, right right, I mean as opposed to ethics.

Which is ironic that there's entire departments in certain companies called compliance, right right, I mean as opposed to ethics.

Yeah right, yeah, ethical departments.

Yeah right, yeah, ethical departments.

I don't have ethical departments, they have compliance departments. The but I think you're this is a great distinction about the values versus the behavior, because the behaviors are excusable and we all step out, we all lost outside our values. And but the and I guess what I'm getting at is the character where the people who perhaps I show a little less grace to not that I humiliate or shame. I don't, it's just sort of you. I'm just you just sort of take a note in your mind. It's not a behavior that I'm reacting to. It's a clue about character. And I say clue because one example is not enough.

I don't have ethical departments, they have compliance departments. The but I think you're this is a great distinction about the values versus the behavior, because the behaviors are excusable and we all step out, we all lost outside our values. And but the and I guess what I'm getting at is the character where the people who perhaps I show a little less grace to not that I humiliate or shame. I don't, it's just sort of you. I'm just you just sort of take a note in your mind. It's not a behavior that I'm reacting to. It's a clue about character. And I say clue because one example is not enough.

I agree.

I agree.

Yeah, we'll be right back.

Yeah, we'll be right back.

Have either of you ever read the Samuel and Pearl of the Nurse Study of Holocaust Rescuers and Bystanders now amazing project by sociologists. So basically, they got a big sample hundreds of Christians who rescued Jews during the Holocaust and compared them to their own neighbors who did nothing. And they wanted to know what made these people into humans of such extraordinary character that they were willing to risk their lives for somebody who didn't share their fundamental beliefs. And there were a lot of interesting findings in the study, but one that has always stuck with me was the rescuers, compared to the bystanders, were less likely to be punished with consequences and more likely to be punished with explanations. And I think this goes to the heart of Brene your distinction between compliance and commitment. As kids. Yeah, let me let me explain a little more clearly. So growing up, the people who went on to become rescuers, when they did something wrong, their parents didn't punish them. They they explained to them why the behavior was wrong. So then then it instead of just learning to comply with what authority figures did, they actually internalized the set of values and principles that they carried with.

Have either of you ever read the Samuel and Pearl of the Nurse Study of Holocaust Rescuers and Bystanders now amazing project by sociologists. So basically, they got a big sample hundreds of Christians who rescued Jews during the Holocaust and compared them to their own neighbors who did nothing. And they wanted to know what made these people into humans of such extraordinary character that they were willing to risk their lives for somebody who didn't share their fundamental beliefs. And there were a lot of interesting findings in the study, but one that has always stuck with me was the rescuers, compared to the bystanders, were less likely to be punished with consequences and more likely to be punished with explanations. And I think this goes to the heart of Brene your distinction between compliance and commitment. As kids. Yeah, let me let me explain a little more clearly. So growing up, the people who went on to become rescuers, when they did something wrong, their parents didn't punish them. They they explained to them why the behavior was wrong. So then then it instead of just learning to comply with what authority figures did, they actually internalized the set of values and principles that they carried with.

Them between compliance. Yeah, me too. That's compliance versus commitments in a nutshell.

Them between compliance. Yeah, me too. That's compliance versus commitments in a nutshell.

Wow, And this is all this is now nature versus nurture too, which is Oh? And I remember I remember a study that I read that I couldn't tell you who did it.

Wow, And this is all this is now nature versus nurture too, which is Oh? And I remember I remember a study that I read that I couldn't tell you who did it.

I'll tell us, thank you.

I'll tell us, thank you.

I study when I was writing leaders eat Less, I was I became very interested in I read a whole bunch of parenting stuff. And one of the things I remember reading is that I think they talked about values. But our values don't come from our parents. You know, there's so many influences in our lives. And like two kids who were brought up the same way, you know, one goes one way, one goes the other. And apparently across cultures universally, there's only two things everyone always gets from their parents, which is how you treat yourself and how you treat others. That's interesting and Adam, this would speak to that, which is when you make a bad choice and you get an explanation that you're learning to treat others in a certain way and yourself, sure, and yourself and that versus getting punished, you're gonna treat yourself for others in a different way. So good. This goes to leadership one oh one as well. Let me tell you why we don't do that around here, you know, and why the decision you made. I want to explain to you what's important about that decision, like why we don't do it that way?

I study when I was writing leaders eat Less, I was I became very interested in I read a whole bunch of parenting stuff. And one of the things I remember reading is that I think they talked about values. But our values don't come from our parents. You know, there's so many influences in our lives. And like two kids who were brought up the same way, you know, one goes one way, one goes the other. And apparently across cultures universally, there's only two things everyone always gets from their parents, which is how you treat yourself and how you treat others. That's interesting and Adam, this would speak to that, which is when you make a bad choice and you get an explanation that you're learning to treat others in a certain way and yourself, sure, and yourself and that versus getting punished, you're gonna treat yourself for others in a different way. So good. This goes to leadership one oh one as well. Let me tell you why we don't do that around here, you know, and why the decision you made. I want to explain to you what's important about that decision, like why we don't do it that way?

So good, it's so good. And I would imagine, I mean, I don't know if they got to this atom, did they. I would imagine when it was consequence versus I would imagine this is so interesting. I would imagine that consequence would be a lot of lessons in empathy about how someone's actions affected other people exactly where punishment is more shame driven.

So good, it's so good. And I would imagine, I mean, I don't know if they got to this atom, did they. I would imagine when it was consequence versus I would imagine this is so interesting. I would imagine that consequence would be a lot of lessons in empathy about how someone's actions affected other people exactly where punishment is more shame driven.

Yes, it's I mean it literally, I think they were they were doing your research. They Yeah, the parents explained the consequences, like here's why you know, stealing your siblings toy hurts them. Yeah, imagine how you would feel as someone someone stole your toy.

Yes, it's I mean it literally, I think they were they were doing your research. They Yeah, the parents explained the consequences, like here's why you know, stealing your siblings toy hurts them. Yeah, imagine how you would feel as someone someone stole your toy.

It's the whole thing. And instead of shame, they get guilt.

It's the whole thing. And instead of shame, they get guilt.

I did a bad thing and I need to now prevent it moving forward, What is the.

I did a bad thing and I need to now prevent it moving forward, What is the.

One emotion or affect that Shame corrodes empathy and shame corodes empathy. Empathy cannot surve shame and shame is so self focused and.

One emotion or affect that Shame corrodes empathy and shame corodes empathy. Empathy cannot surve shame and shame is so self focused and.

Shame you start to believe you're the only person in the world. Yes, right, right where, Because it's about preventing me from getting in trouble, which is a selfish disposition versus recognizing that I live in the world and my words and my actions have have impact in the lives of others.

Shame you start to believe you're the only person in the world. Yes, right, right where, Because it's about preventing me from getting in trouble, which is a selfish disposition versus recognizing that I live in the world and my words and my actions have have impact in the lives of others.

Yeah, self focused versus other focused.

Yeah, self focused versus other focused.

Yeah, the self versh is the other focus. And but I think it works the other way as well, which is it's not just punishment, it's also the reward. And you look at a corporate environment, look at Boeing. Oh god, let's just look at Boeing for five minutes. What a cluster fuck that is, right, and incentivized to move fast and hit numbers, punished for slowing down the system, but it's so it's not just the punishment, it's also the incentive. Right, we're incentivizing the wrong behaviaviors and we and we're disincentivizing the pro social behaviors. And it all goes back. It all goes back to selfish versus selfless, which is do you live in the world by yourself or do you live in the world with others? And I'm going to parent you to recognize that you are one of many, versus parenting you that you are just one. You follow the rules because it's just you that needs to follow the rules.

Yeah, the self versh is the other focus. And but I think it works the other way as well, which is it's not just punishment, it's also the reward. And you look at a corporate environment, look at Boeing. Oh god, let's just look at Boeing for five minutes. What a cluster fuck that is, right, and incentivized to move fast and hit numbers, punished for slowing down the system, but it's so it's not just the punishment, it's also the incentive. Right, we're incentivizing the wrong behaviaviors and we and we're disincentivizing the pro social behaviors. And it all goes back. It all goes back to selfish versus selfless, which is do you live in the world by yourself or do you live in the world with others? And I'm going to parent you to recognize that you are one of many, versus parenting you that you are just one. You follow the rules because it's just you that needs to follow the rules.

And what that leads you to is taking actions to protect your reputation as opposed to improve your character, yes.

And what that leads you to is taking actions to protect your reputation as opposed to improve your character, yes.

It or improve your behavior. Yeah.

It or improve your behavior. Yeah.

Yeah, And it's so interesting to you because y'all y'all talked about narcissism, and that's why, like, I think I don't remember what book it was in name that was at outlas at the heart, I think it was Dear to Lead, I said, I think this is my own that.

Yeah, And it's so interesting to you because y'all y'all talked about narcissism, and that's why, like, I think I don't remember what book it was in name that was at outlas at the heart, I think it was Dear to Lead, I said, I think this is my own that.

One I know, thank you.

One I know, thank you.

Uh, this is all a matter assignment, just skip mine, right, But I think I think it was a dare to lead that I said to me narcissism is the shame based fear of being ordinary. And it's so funny because people think that narcissists are, you know, have these huge egos and it's about grandiosity. But I do know, not from my research but from other people's research, that there's no kind of continuum on the personality disorder continuum that's more shame fueled than narcissism. Ye, people are so afraid of being ordinary.

Uh, this is all a matter assignment, just skip mine, right, But I think I think it was a dare to lead that I said to me narcissism is the shame based fear of being ordinary. And it's so funny because people think that narcissists are, you know, have these huge egos and it's about grandiosity. But I do know, not from my research but from other people's research, that there's no kind of continuum on the personality disorder continuum that's more shame fueled than narcissism. Ye, people are so afraid of being ordinary.

I do.

I do.

I do think there's something very shame based, very self focused, very just scared to death on the inside of that.

I do think there's something very shame based, very self focused, very just scared to death on the inside of that.

Yeah, yeah, I wonder how so I think about narcissism much less, you know, in terms of the personality disorder, and much more in terms of normal personality.

Yeah, yeah, I wonder how so I think about narcissism much less, you know, in terms of the personality disorder, and much more in terms of normal personality.

We all know some people who are more narcissistic.

We all know some people who are more narcissistic.

And other instead of collection behaviors.

And other instead of collection behaviors.

Yeah, exactly, like a tendency to have an inflated ego and be entitled. And I think this makes me wonder is this part of the difference between grandiose and vulnerable narcissisms, those two flavors that often come out where the grandiose is the larger than life, I'm more important than everyone else, and the vulnerable is the like I'm afraid of, you know, of any criticism. I wonder if these are different strategies for managing shame that the grandiose narcissists build them their relt up and the vulnerable narcissists retreat, oh.

Yeah, exactly, like a tendency to have an inflated ego and be entitled. And I think this makes me wonder is this part of the difference between grandiose and vulnerable narcissisms, those two flavors that often come out where the grandiose is the larger than life, I'm more important than everyone else, and the vulnerable is the like I'm afraid of, you know, of any criticism. I wonder if these are different strategies for managing shame that the grandiose narcissists build them their relt up and the vulnerable narcissists retreat, oh.

One hundred percent. And by the way, this is what I think one of the things that makes human beings so fascinating. You know, I'll make it a more base example that it just reminds me of college, right, which is somebody who's very, very social, excessively social, could be because they're so insecure they have to be really really social, or they're so secure they can be really really social. Or somebody who never goes out they stay at home the whole time. It's because they're so insecure they kind of go out, or they're so secure they don't want to go out. And I love the fact that the behaviors can be the.

One hundred percent. And by the way, this is what I think one of the things that makes human beings so fascinating. You know, I'll make it a more base example that it just reminds me of college, right, which is somebody who's very, very social, excessively social, could be because they're so insecure they have to be really really social, or they're so secure they can be really really social. Or somebody who never goes out they stay at home the whole time. It's because they're so insecure they kind of go out, or they're so secure they don't want to go out. And I love the fact that the behaviors can be the.

Same but the opposite motivations different fascinating.

Same but the opposite motivations different fascinating.

And for me, part of the fascination of like the anthropologist in me has always been to try to find the subtleties and nuances that I can spot the difference because they exist.

And for me, part of the fascination of like the anthropologist in me has always been to try to find the subtleties and nuances that I can spot the difference because they exist.

Well, we had this over the weekend.

Well, we had this over the weekend.

Simon you actually displayed this in Stockholm Brenee was I was noticing two conferences in a row. Simon is the first person to leave the party.

Simon you actually displayed this in Stockholm Brenee was I was noticing two conferences in a row. Simon is the first person to leave the party.

To go to bed.

To go to bed.

And at first it's like, Simon, are you more I thought I was more introverted than you are? You know, are you just getting overwhelmed early? Are you sleep obsessed? And then at some point it hit me, you're secure enough that you're not staying around out of fomo.

And at first it's like, Simon, are you more I thought I was more introverted than you are? You know, are you just getting overwhelmed early? Are you sleep obsessed? And then at some point it hit me, you're secure enough that you're not staying around out of fomo.

I there m a lot of people with loud noise is about the worst thing in the world.

I there m a lot of people with loud noise is about the worst thing in the world.

But it's not I feel that way too, But it's not just that you also have the confidence to walk away and say, look, you know, I don't I don't need to stick around in the hopes that I'll make a connection in the next hour.

But it's not I feel that way too, But it's not just that you also have the confidence to walk away and say, look, you know, I don't I don't need to stick around in the hopes that I'll make a connection in the next hour.

Yeah, that's true.

Yeah, that's true.

That's true of you.

That's true of you.

I've been around you. That's true of you. I mean, yeah, I you know I it's kind of a life no no, no, this it's just my It's sort.

I've been around you. That's true of you. I mean, yeah, I you know I it's kind of a life no no, no, this it's just my It's sort.

Of a life philosophy, which is which is things will come my way because I'll randomly find myself in places and I will miss things because I didn't show up, and I have to be okay with both, and because I understand that if I, if I try and be everywhere, it actually won't actually necessarily dramatically increase the odds of me getting more. And so I'm just okay that. You know. It's kind of like we always say, we say this with our friends all the time, like, you know, let me buy dinner. No, no, let me buy don't worry, leave it out in the wash, right, Like over the course of time, It's like if I flip a coin a hundred times, it's going to be fifty to fifty, right, And so my attitude is like in a vacuum. Yeah, it's probably lopsided, but over the course of my life it'll even out, you know, when some I'm loose them. So I I yeah, I've never met a party. I couldn't leave too early.

Of a life philosophy, which is which is things will come my way because I'll randomly find myself in places and I will miss things because I didn't show up, and I have to be okay with both, and because I understand that if I, if I try and be everywhere, it actually won't actually necessarily dramatically increase the odds of me getting more. And so I'm just okay that. You know. It's kind of like we always say, we say this with our friends all the time, like, you know, let me buy dinner. No, no, let me buy don't worry, leave it out in the wash, right, Like over the course of time, It's like if I flip a coin a hundred times, it's going to be fifty to fifty, right, And so my attitude is like in a vacuum. Yeah, it's probably lopsided, but over the course of my life it'll even out, you know, when some I'm loose them. So I I yeah, I've never met a party. I couldn't leave too early.

God, same, Adam.

God, same, Adam.

So I as an introvert, if you're fine, because if you're if you're actually uncomfortable with the crowd and the noise, what what is the motivation that you choose to stay?

So I as an introvert, if you're fine, because if you're if you're actually uncomfortable with the crowd and the noise, what what is the motivation that you choose to stay?

Well, I really like people.

Well, I really like people.

So you're not an introvert as much I am.

So you're not an introvert as much I am.

I just I just at some point get over stimulated. But an interaction. But I think that I.

I just I just at some point get over stimulated. But an interaction. But I think that I.

Don't like people.

Don't like people.

We know, we know, secret is out Simon. Simon, Well, I'm going to talk about you in the third person for NOE. I think Simon does like people less than you and I do.

We know, we know, secret is out Simon. Simon, Well, I'm going to talk about you in the third person for NOE. I think Simon does like people less than you and I do.

I would.

I would.

I'd be shocked if you less people liked people less than me. I'm just going to be real. I'm going to be I mean humanity. I love people in general.

I'd be shocked if you less people liked people less than me. I'm just going to be real. I'm going to be I mean humanity. I love people in general.

I like I like persons, I like persons fair.

I like I like persons, I like persons fair.

I mean, let's just say. Let me just say this, y'all. The difference between me and y'all is I will not even be at the party. Like contractually there is in every contract I sign, there is no dinner.

I mean, let's just say. Let me just say this, y'all. The difference between me and y'all is I will not even be at the party. Like contractually there is in every contract I sign, there is no dinner.

There is no no, no, no, no, by the way, no what we're talking about. Party. I've never been to an after party because I don't understand of them. I went to the damn party. Why do you have to go to the party after the part?

There is no no, no, no, no, by the way, no what we're talking about. Party. I've never been to an after party because I don't understand of them. I went to the damn party. Why do you have to go to the party after the part?

I will see your party avoidance and raise you. By the time I was a senior in college, I convinced my roommates that we should have board game gatherings, which were called people overs, because I didn't want to have to leave our room or go to a party.

I will see your party avoidance and raise you. By the time I was a senior in college, I convinced my roommates that we should have board game gatherings, which were called people overs, because I didn't want to have to leave our room or go to a party.

I was in college and my sweet mates would throw parties, and the rule was every suite mate had to contribute money to pay for the party, you know, fifty bucks each or whatever. I would pay my fifty bucks and then go out. I didn't go to the parties that I paid for.

I was in college and my sweet mates would throw parties, and the rule was every suite mate had to contribute money to pay for the party, you know, fifty bucks each or whatever. I would pay my fifty bucks and then go out. I didn't go to the parties that I paid for.

This is why y'all are my people. I mean, this is really why you're my people. I mean, I just yeah. For me, it's very, very very difficult.

This is why y'all are my people. I mean, this is really why you're my people. I mean, I just yeah. For me, it's very, very very difficult.

We'll be right back.

We'll be right back.

I wanted to go back to one thoughts I wrote it down. I just wanted to say something that maybe controversial, but I think it's an important thing to add. And it goes back to looking for motivation, and it goes back to the grandiose narcissism and the vulnerable narcissism. I would argue that no matter the behavior, self focusedness as someone who's super self focused will be no matter how it's expressed, is equally painful to other people. I think it's very dangerous to buy into the idea that a grandiose behaving person that has narcissistic tendencies is going to be more hurtful than someone who has those tendencies and is vulnerable. It just shows up different. But in the end self, when you're self focused, there's going to be some empathic fails that are going to be hurtful to somebody.

I wanted to go back to one thoughts I wrote it down. I just wanted to say something that maybe controversial, but I think it's an important thing to add. And it goes back to looking for motivation, and it goes back to the grandiose narcissism and the vulnerable narcissism. I would argue that no matter the behavior, self focusedness as someone who's super self focused will be no matter how it's expressed, is equally painful to other people. I think it's very dangerous to buy into the idea that a grandiose behaving person that has narcissistic tendencies is going to be more hurtful than someone who has those tendencies and is vulnerable. It just shows up different. But in the end self, when you're self focused, there's going to be some empathic fails that are going to be hurtful to somebody.

Yes, end well to consider the audience, right, which is I agree with you that there is impact from both behaviors, but some people are more resilient to one of those behaviors and some are more resilient to the other kind of behavior.

Yes, end well to consider the audience, right, which is I agree with you that there is impact from both behaviors, but some people are more resilient to one of those behaviors and some are more resilient to the other kind of behavior.

I don't agree.

I don't agree.

So, like, I like, if somebody is grandiose, I may say, eh, whatever, they're just grand standing and I'm not hurt or affected. But if somebody's despondent, it's like my own insecurity is like, oh my god, did I say something wrong? So where somebody else might be the opposite. And it goes back to what we're saying before, which is the motivations may be different. So so how I respond may look the same but be differently motivated.

So, like, I like, if somebody is grandiose, I may say, eh, whatever, they're just grand standing and I'm not hurt or affected. But if somebody's despondent, it's like my own insecurity is like, oh my god, did I say something wrong? So where somebody else might be the opposite. And it goes back to what we're saying before, which is the motivations may be different. So so how I respond may look the same but be differently motivated.

Yes, I think if the whole point.

Yes, I think if the whole point.

We're making is that we live in the world, we can't just consider the person who's behaving. We also have to consider the person on the receiving end of the beating.

We're making is that we live in the world, we can't just consider the person who's behaving. We also have to consider the person on the receiving end of the beating.

I think you're I think you're right. I think I think when I see grandiosity, I mean, like is it a great example? In my opinion, are we allowed to say that.

I think you're I think you're right. I think I think when I see grandiosity, I mean, like is it a great example? In my opinion, are we allowed to say that.

I keep it apolitical, but it's an example of fine.

I keep it apolitical, but it's an example of fine.

Yeah, you can see that coming.

Yeah, you can see that coming.

And some people find it offensive and some people find it seductive. Right, one more right than the other.

And some people find it offensive and some people find it seductive. Right, one more right than the other.

No, But I think when the behavior outwardly, I don't know. I just find in leadership with leaders i've worked with that vulnerable quiet self focus can be absolutely brutal on direct reports. Agree, because no one sees it, but it's there, to.

No, But I think when the behavior outwardly, I don't know. I just find in leadership with leaders i've worked with that vulnerable quiet self focus can be absolutely brutal on direct reports. Agree, because no one sees it, but it's there, to.

Your point, because it's not grandiose, it's more silent. It's a poison, you know, more than a We didn't realize you were drinking it until later. But I still think that we may be less practiced at dealing with it because it's it's harder to see.

Your point, because it's not grandiose, it's more silent. It's a poison, you know, more than a We didn't realize you were drinking it until later. But I still think that we may be less practiced at dealing with it because it's it's harder to see.

But I think that's true. I think that's true.

But I think that's true. I think that's true.

You know. Yeah, But I will say I'll do another sort of yes, and which is when it comes to leadership, I don't want any narcissism. I agree with you, Brene. This is an overused word, but any kind of self absorption is toxic. If I had to choose, I would rather coach the grandiose narcissist than the vulnerable one.

You know. Yeah, But I will say I'll do another sort of yes, and which is when it comes to leadership, I don't want any narcissism. I agree with you, Brene. This is an overused word, but any kind of self absorption is toxic. If I had to choose, I would rather coach the grandiose narcissist than the vulnerable one.

You don't get.

You don't get.

You don't get Steve Jobs founding Apple from vulnerable narcissism. It's grandiose. Yeah, and I think there's, oh, there's there's a great Rubenzer and fashion Power study of presidential personality showing that grandiose studies.

You don't get Steve Jobs founding Apple from vulnerable narcissism. It's grandiose. Yeah, and I think there's, oh, there's there's a great Rubenzer and fashion Power study of presidential personality showing that grandiose studies.

I can't even remember the names.

I can't even remember the names.

It's in the job description.

It's in the job description.

Why can't scientists be named like Smith Johnson?

Why can't scientists be named like Smith Johnson?

That helpful?

That helpful?

Anyway?

Anyway?

Let me let me get to the substance, which is uh.

Let me let me get to the substance, which is uh.

When they looked at presidential personality ratings from historians and political scientists and then predicted greatness as rated by experts, they found that there were basically that vulnerable narcissists didn't succeed, and that grandiose narcissism was a double edged sword that you know, sometimes it led to extraordinary public persuasiveness and other times, you know, it led to over confidence. Yeah, both exactly, depending on what period of time you look at.

When they looked at presidential personality ratings from historians and political scientists and then predicted greatness as rated by experts, they found that there were basically that vulnerable narcissists didn't succeed, and that grandiose narcissism was a double edged sword that you know, sometimes it led to extraordinary public persuasiveness and other times, you know, it led to over confidence. Yeah, both exactly, depending on what period of time you look at.

Uh.

Uh.

But but what's so interesting to me is there's another researcher, Brad Owens, who has studied what he calls humble narcissism. And I don't like I don't like the term. But he finds that narcissism and humility can coexist. That you can have the grandiose belief I'm capable of doing great things and also the humility to you know, to know, to know your weaknesses. And I think that so much of what I've tried to do with leaders historically is I've tried to dial down their grandiose narcissism, and what I actually need to do is raise up their humility.

But but what's so interesting to me is there's another researcher, Brad Owens, who has studied what he calls humble narcissism. And I don't like I don't like the term. But he finds that narcissism and humility can coexist. That you can have the grandiose belief I'm capable of doing great things and also the humility to you know, to know, to know your weaknesses. And I think that so much of what I've tried to do with leaders historically is I've tried to dial down their grandiose narcissism, and what I actually need to do is raise up their humility.

Like I don't want to.

Like I don't want to.

Convince Steve Jobs that he lacks vision. I want to convince him that he's terrible at interacting with other people.

Convince Steve Jobs that he lacks vision. I want to convince him that he's terrible at interacting with other people.

But first, let's define humility, right, And my favorite definition of humility is from Bob Gaylor, who is the fifth Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force, and he said, don't confuse humility with meekness. Humility is being open to the ideas of others. And since I've embraced that definition, I have no problem with people with huge egos. And all these people in big power, they have to have big egos. You couldn't get there without it. You have to believe you're good enough, right. But the ones that I find impressive are the ones that say, hey, I have an idea and they go let's hear it. And those are the ones that I and So, if you're talking about humble narcissists, it's not that they're necessarily aware of their weaknesses. I think they have plenty of blind spots on all of that stuff. It's that they reckon And it goes back to this theme that keeps coming up, which is they live in the world. They recognize that they are other people, that their behaviors impact other people, and that other people are included in all the decisions they make, and that they will benefit from the ideas of other people. And they will actually, you know, look better if they're open to the ideas of others.

But first, let's define humility, right, And my favorite definition of humility is from Bob Gaylor, who is the fifth Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force, and he said, don't confuse humility with meekness. Humility is being open to the ideas of others. And since I've embraced that definition, I have no problem with people with huge egos. And all these people in big power, they have to have big egos. You couldn't get there without it. You have to believe you're good enough, right. But the ones that I find impressive are the ones that say, hey, I have an idea and they go let's hear it. And those are the ones that I and So, if you're talking about humble narcissists, it's not that they're necessarily aware of their weaknesses. I think they have plenty of blind spots on all of that stuff. It's that they reckon And it goes back to this theme that keeps coming up, which is they live in the world. They recognize that they are other people, that their behaviors impact other people, and that other people are included in all the decisions they make, and that they will benefit from the ideas of other people. And they will actually, you know, look better if they're open to the ideas of others.

So I think that gets us part of the way there. I want to go further, though, and say that the right combination of humility and confidence is being secure enough in your strengths to see your weaknesses. And I think it's at its core recognizing your own limitations and shortcomings that makes you the most open to other people's ideas.

So I think that gets us part of the way there. I want to go further, though, and say that the right combination of humility and confidence is being secure enough in your strengths to see your weaknesses. And I think it's at its core recognizing your own limitations and shortcomings that makes you the most open to other people's ideas.

So, and I think you and I have talked about this, I can't remember, which is I actually don't believe in strengths and weaknesses. I believe in characteristics and attributes. I have certain characteristics and attributes, and in certain context those things display as weaknesses, and in certain context those things display as strengths. And so the trick is not like that to work on my weaknesses and build on my strengths. It's to put myself in situations my characterstics are more likely to reveal themselves as strengths and put other people in the other situations where they will thrive and do great because I will not.

So, and I think you and I have talked about this, I can't remember, which is I actually don't believe in strengths and weaknesses. I believe in characteristics and attributes. I have certain characteristics and attributes, and in certain context those things display as weaknesses, and in certain context those things display as strengths. And so the trick is not like that to work on my weaknesses and build on my strengths. It's to put myself in situations my characterstics are more likely to reveal themselves as strengths and put other people in the other situations where they will thrive and do great because I will not.

Simon is demonstrating metacognition right now.

Simon is demonstrating metacognition right now.

I was going to say, I'm going to take this to the very full circle.

I was going to say, I'm going to take this to the very full circle.

For let's renee, why did you wrap it up for us?

For let's renee, why did you wrap it up for us?

Well, I'm going to take it back to the beginning, and I'm going to say I actually believe that humility is a function of metacognition. I do, and I think it's actually humility is a property of confidence. I don't think you can be a competent person without some humility. So I don't know what the temporal relationship is, but I actually think there is a level of metacognition that's required for humility, which takes us very back to the very beginning of Simon's first like when we first got on about self aware. I think if you can't think about how you're thinking.

Well, I'm going to take it back to the beginning, and I'm going to say I actually believe that humility is a function of metacognition. I do, and I think it's actually humility is a property of confidence. I don't think you can be a competent person without some humility. So I don't know what the temporal relationship is, but I actually think there is a level of metacognition that's required for humility, which takes us very back to the very beginning of Simon's first like when we first got on about self aware. I think if you can't think about how you're thinking.

I think we're hard. I think we're making the standard too high that you have to be able to think about what you're thinking about, right, And I think that's no Now I would be okay with I would I would be okay with I would be okay with that. You just know that you're not the only person in the world. And it goes back to that parenting thing that that you will have humility. It goes back to the high performing teams, you know, the ones that have care for each other. Right that that that if you just can recognize that there are other people in the world and everything you say in everything you do will impact those people in the world, positively or negatively, you will have humility.

I think we're hard. I think we're making the standard too high that you have to be able to think about what you're thinking about, right, And I think that's no Now I would be okay with I would I would be okay with I would be okay with that. You just know that you're not the only person in the world. And it goes back to that parenting thing that that you will have humility. It goes back to the high performing teams, you know, the ones that have care for each other. Right that that that if you just can recognize that there are other people in the world and everything you say in everything you do will impact those people in the world, positively or negatively, you will have humility.

I agree with that. I think you'll need metacognition for that. Phineas Adam, what do you think are you on voting for cognition or.

I agree with that. I think you'll need metacognition for that. Phineas Adam, what do you think are you on voting for cognition or.

Voting against I'm on this one, Simon.

Voting against I'm on this one, Simon.

I think that maybe maybe thinking about thinking it is I think it's great shorthand for metacognition, but would be a different way to say it is you need to have the wisdom to exercise judgment about your own judgment, gues.

I think that maybe maybe thinking about thinking it is I think it's great shorthand for metacognition, but would be a different way to say it is you need to have the wisdom to exercise judgment about your own judgment, gues.

I just think you need to recognize with those other people in the world.

I just think you need to recognize with those other people in the world.

And I think in order to do that you really have to have judge.

And I think in order to do that you really have to have judge.

Let's just ignore that.

Let's just ignore that.

There's carry on with this, okay, and then then the episodes and by the way done, you seem really exhausted.

There's carry on with this, okay, and then then the episodes and by the way done, you seem really exhausted.

You have no energy right now.

You have no energy right now.

You should realize that.

You should realize that.

Do you realize? Do you realize the two you are? You realize how to screw the two of you are? Because the next time I'm exhausted, I got to show up and be like you just hold on. I have just to call Adam Brene for an hour and a half and then I'll be I'll.

Do you realize? Do you realize the two you are? You realize how to screw the two of you are? Because the next time I'm exhausted, I got to show up and be like you just hold on. I have just to call Adam Brene for an hour and a half and then I'll be I'll.

Be on time.

Be on time.

I'm down for it. Okay, bye, guys.

I'm down for it. Okay, bye, guys.

I see you later. If you enjoyed this podcast would like to hear more, please please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts, and if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website Simon Sinek dot com for classes, videos and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other. A Bit of Optimism is a production of the Optimism Company. It's produced and edited by David Jah and Greg Reiderschan and Henrietta Conrad is our executive producer,

I see you later. If you enjoyed this podcast would like to hear more, please please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts, and if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website Simon Sinek dot com for classes, videos and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other. A Bit of Optimism is a production of the Optimism Company. It's produced and edited by David Jah and Greg Reiderschan and Henrietta Conrad is our executive producer,