If you're like me, you would like to start some good habits and you'd probably like to stop some bad ones too.

If you're like me, you would like to start some good habits and you'd probably like to stop some bad ones too.

Well.

Well.

Thank goodness for James Clear. He is the patron saint of habit forming. He wrote the book Atomic Habits, which has sold a whopping fifteen million books worldwide. Turns out there are lots of people trying to build good habits. So to start this new year, I sat down with James to find out what we can do to build some atomic habits. This is a bit of optimism. James, thanks for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it.

Thank goodness for James Clear. He is the patron saint of habit forming. He wrote the book Atomic Habits, which has sold a whopping fifteen million books worldwide. Turns out there are lots of people trying to build good habits. So to start this new year, I sat down with James to find out what we can do to build some atomic habits. This is a bit of optimism. James, thanks for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it.

Yeah, of course, pleasure to talk to you as always.

Yeah, of course, pleasure to talk to you as always.

So I know you talk about this all the time, but we have to talk about it a little bit. Atomic Habits has it is unbelievable how obsessed people are with your book. It is unbelievable how many copies that that book has sold it in such a short period of time as well, So credit to you, Kudo. What is the reason you think that that book has taken the world by storm? Like, what is it that you think resonates with people so much?

So I know you talk about this all the time, but we have to talk about it a little bit. Atomic Habits has it is unbelievable how obsessed people are with your book. It is unbelievable how many copies that that book has sold it in such a short period of time as well, So credit to you, Kudo. What is the reason you think that that book has taken the world by storm? Like, what is it that you think resonates with people so much?

I have some suspicions, you know, like, at some point you get to this level where The only way a book sells that much is through word of mouth. And there are some things that you can do to try to drive word of mouth. The most obvious one is you have to create something that is genuinely useful. I like Seth Godin's mark for It, where he says to drive word of mouth, you need to make something remarkable, and that means it's worthy of remark. Certainly I tried to do that.

I have some suspicions, you know, like, at some point you get to this level where The only way a book sells that much is through word of mouth. And there are some things that you can do to try to drive word of mouth. The most obvious one is you have to create something that is genuinely useful. I like Seth Godin's mark for It, where he says to drive word of mouth, you need to make something remarkable, and that means it's worthy of remark. Certainly I tried to do that.

What I'm curious about what is it about the buyers? What is it about us that makes a book about our desire to improve our habits and get rid of the bad ones so appealing? Like, what is it about the topic that you think resonates so much with people?

What I'm curious about what is it about the buyers? What is it about us that makes a book about our desire to improve our habits and get rid of the bad ones so appealing? Like, what is it about the topic that you think resonates so much with people?

Well, humans are very social creatures. You know, we have all always grown up around each other and our ancestors, and you know, we have evolved in a very social society. And many researchers will tell you that status plays a big.

Well, humans are very social creatures. You know, we have all always grown up around each other and our ancestors, and you know, we have evolved in a very social society. And many researchers will tell you that status plays a big.

Part in that.

Part in that.

And that can mean many different things, but generally speaking, people genuinely realize that as you achieve more status, you things tend to go better for you. You have the interest of more people who has a potential mate, You get better job, opportunities, you earn the respect of your peers, blah blah blah, blah blah. It is genuinely true that if people like you or respect you, that it tends to work out well for you. And I think people can draw a pretty clear connection between having better habits and achieving the things that they want to achieve, whatever status it may be for.

And that can mean many different things, but generally speaking, people genuinely realize that as you achieve more status, you things tend to go better for you. You have the interest of more people who has a potential mate, You get better job, opportunities, you earn the respect of your peers, blah blah blah, blah blah. It is genuinely true that if people like you or respect you, that it tends to work out well for you. And I think people can draw a pretty clear connection between having better habits and achieving the things that they want to achieve, whatever status it may be for.

Them that they're interesting.

Them that they're interesting.

And so I think there is some deep truth that we all realize, which is that many of our outcomes and results in life are a lagging measure of the habits that precede them. Your knowledge tends to be a lagging measure of your reading and learning habits. Your bank account tends to be a lagging measure of your financial habits. Even little stuff like the amount of clutter in your living room tends to be a lagging measure of your cleaning habits. And habits are not the only thing that matters in life. But I do think we all, for whatever reasons, tend to be pretty results oriented and we can see how our habits tie into those results.

And so I think there is some deep truth that we all realize, which is that many of our outcomes and results in life are a lagging measure of the habits that precede them. Your knowledge tends to be a lagging measure of your reading and learning habits. Your bank account tends to be a lagging measure of your financial habits. Even little stuff like the amount of clutter in your living room tends to be a lagging measure of your cleaning habits. And habits are not the only thing that matters in life. But I do think we all, for whatever reasons, tend to be pretty results oriented and we can see how our habits tie into those results.

So that's the first piece.

So that's the first piece.

The second piece, though, and this is the atomic that's the Habit's part of the title the atomic part of the title is it doesn't have to be that hard. We can scale it down, we can make it accessible, we can make this easy. And that part is also very appealing, And it's actually the contrast between you can have the results that you want and you can make small changes that I think makes this book in particular palatable and interesting to people.

The second piece, though, and this is the atomic that's the Habit's part of the title the atomic part of the title is it doesn't have to be that hard. We can scale it down, we can make it accessible, we can make this easy. And that part is also very appealing, And it's actually the contrast between you can have the results that you want and you can make small changes that I think makes this book in particular palatable and interesting to people.

I did not expect you to say to give that answer, and I find that very interesting that the idea of of status and a desire to sort of, you know, achieve what I expected you to say was people are insecure about what they're unable to do, and this helps them overcome that stickiness. Like when somebody tells me about atomic habits, I'm thinking about all the stuff that I'm not doing, like, oh my goodness, Like I'm not doing this, I'm not doing I wish I wish I was better at that, wish I read more books. I wish I, you know, was in the habit of cleaning my car once every two weeks or whatever it is.

I did not expect you to say to give that answer, and I find that very interesting that the idea of of status and a desire to sort of, you know, achieve what I expected you to say was people are insecure about what they're unable to do, and this helps them overcome that stickiness. Like when somebody tells me about atomic habits, I'm thinking about all the stuff that I'm not doing, like, oh my goodness, Like I'm not doing this, I'm not doing I wish I wish I was better at that, wish I read more books. I wish I, you know, was in the habit of cleaning my car once every two weeks or whatever it is.

Well, I think what I'm getting at though, there certainly there's a performance aspect, and for a certain type of mindset, there's like a peak performance desire that kind of thing, the achiever mindset. But really what I'm trying to get at is that I think what it taps into is this sense of hope.

Well, I think what I'm getting at though, there certainly there's a performance aspect, and for a certain type of mindset, there's like a peak performance desire that kind of thing, the achiever mindset. But really what I'm trying to get at is that I think what it taps into is this sense of hope.

There we all.

There we all.

Have a sense, this hope that by improving our habits we will have some of the things that we hope to achieve, or that you will have more of the life that we hope to have. Another element of this that I think ties into that hope piece is habits are pretty universal, and it's an interesting topic because it is simultaneously universal. We all have them, and we're all building them, whether we think about them or not. But it is also highly individual. You know, your habits feel like your habits, they're not the same as mine. When somebody picks up the book, they have this hope that they can change their habits, whatever that little package of behavior happens to be, into something that will give them a little bit more of the life they want to have. And every person that looks at the book has a different little version.

Have a sense, this hope that by improving our habits we will have some of the things that we hope to achieve, or that you will have more of the life that we hope to have. Another element of this that I think ties into that hope piece is habits are pretty universal, and it's an interesting topic because it is simultaneously universal. We all have them, and we're all building them, whether we think about them or not. But it is also highly individual. You know, your habits feel like your habits, they're not the same as mine. When somebody picks up the book, they have this hope that they can change their habits, whatever that little package of behavior happens to be, into something that will give them a little bit more of the life they want to have. And every person that looks at the book has a different little version.

Of that in their mind.

Of that in their mind.

So it is it's universal. It speaks to all of us, but everybody's got their own little version of what it might look like.

So it is it's universal. It speaks to all of us, but everybody's got their own little version of what it might look like.

Okay, so forgive me, but we're going to have to do this. We have to go through some of them. Let's make it real specific. If I'm going to have you on the podcast, I might as well personally benefit from it. So let's do a good habit and a bad habit. When I need to build and when I need to break. Okay, Okay, let's start the When I need to break, I bite my nails. I've done it since I was a kid. It drives me nuts. How do I stop biting my nails?

Okay, so forgive me, but we're going to have to do this. We have to go through some of them. Let's make it real specific. If I'm going to have you on the podcast, I might as well personally benefit from it. So let's do a good habit and a bad habit. When I need to build and when I need to break. Okay, Okay, let's start the When I need to break, I bite my nails. I've done it since I was a kid. It drives me nuts. How do I stop biting my nails?

Okay, So before I answer this question, let me just give like the brief summary of the framework that I kind of lay out in much greater detail in the book, and then I'll go through how to apply it to this all right, So basically, it's what I call the four laws of behavior change. And this is a lot of what the book is built around. And there are many ways to do these things. But for building a good habit, you kind of want four things to happen, and then for breaking a bad habit, you kind of want four things to happen. So for building a good one, you want to make the habit obvious. So you want to cues your habits to be obvious, available, visible, easy to see, you want.

Okay, So before I answer this question, let me just give like the brief summary of the framework that I kind of lay out in much greater detail in the book, and then I'll go through how to apply it to this all right, So basically, it's what I call the four laws of behavior change. And this is a lot of what the book is built around. And there are many ways to do these things. But for building a good habit, you kind of want four things to happen, and then for breaking a bad habit, you kind of want four things to happen. So for building a good one, you want to make the habit obvious. So you want to cues your habits to be obvious, available, visible, easy to see, you want.

To make it attractive.

To make it attractive.

So the more compelling or motivating or enticing it is, the better off you are. You want to make it easy, so scaling it down, reducing friction. And then you want to make it satisfying, more rewarding, or beneficial. The more enjoyable it feels, more likely are to repeat it. All right, So we'll come back to that in a minute.

So the more compelling or motivating or enticing it is, the better off you are. You want to make it easy, so scaling it down, reducing friction. And then you want to make it satisfying, more rewarding, or beneficial. The more enjoyable it feels, more likely are to repeat it. All right, So we'll come back to that in a minute.

When we talk about your good habit.

When we talk about your good habit.

For breaking a bad habit, you just invert those four. So rather than making it obvious, you want to make it invisible. Rather than making it attractive, you want to make it unattractive. Rather than making it easy, you want to make it difficult. And rather making it satisfying, you want to make it unsatisfying.

For breaking a bad habit, you just invert those four. So rather than making it obvious, you want to make it invisible. Rather than making it attractive, you want to make it unattractive. Rather than making it easy, you want to make it difficult. And rather making it satisfying, you want to make it unsatisfying.

All right.

All right.

Now, if we take biting your nails, make it invisible, make it unattractive, make it difficult, make it unsatisfying, all right, make it invisible. This one's kind of hard because he can't cut your fingers off, right, So it's gonna be that one's gonna be tricky. Make it unattractive. So there's an example of this in the book. There's a story I tell about this guy who bit his nails.

Now, if we take biting your nails, make it invisible, make it unattractive, make it difficult, make it unsatisfying, all right, make it invisible. This one's kind of hard because he can't cut your fingers off, right, So it's gonna be that one's gonna be tricky. Make it unattractive. So there's an example of this in the book. There's a story I tell about this guy who bit his nails.

For many years.

For many years.

Finally, through a little bit of willpower, he doesn't bite them and lets them grow out for a week or two, and then he goes and gets a manicure, and the manicurist happens to tell him, hey, you know, you actually have like pretty good, healthy nails aside from the biting thing, Like, you know, these look kind of nice. And he said it was the first time in his life that he took a little bit of pride and how his hands looked, and that signaled a little bit of a shift for him internally. Suddenly it was a little more attractive to take care of his nails, and he felt differently about it than he did before, and that increase in pride for him, that was enough to get him to start to treat his nails differently and to not bite them as much. All right, So that's one thing for making it unattractive, So make it difficult this one. There are many examples of this, but the one that I came across in my research that I thought was so interesting was that there's this pattern with people who get in visil line. They will often stop biting their nails, and so they put the invisiline retainers on their teeth and they can't bite their nails in the same way.

Finally, through a little bit of willpower, he doesn't bite them and lets them grow out for a week or two, and then he goes and gets a manicure, and the manicurist happens to tell him, hey, you know, you actually have like pretty good, healthy nails aside from the biting thing, Like, you know, these look kind of nice. And he said it was the first time in his life that he took a little bit of pride and how his hands looked, and that signaled a little bit of a shift for him internally. Suddenly it was a little more attractive to take care of his nails, and he felt differently about it than he did before, and that increase in pride for him, that was enough to get him to start to treat his nails differently and to not bite them as much. All right, So that's one thing for making it unattractive, So make it difficult this one. There are many examples of this, but the one that I came across in my research that I thought was so interesting was that there's this pattern with people who get in visil line. They will often stop biting their nails, and so they put the invisiline retainers on their teeth and they can't bite their nails in the same way.

It doesn't work. And they often have to do that.

It doesn't work. And they often have to do that.

For twelve months or eighteen months however long it takes for their teeth to shift, and by the time they get through that year two period, funny, they.

For twelve months or eighteen months however long it takes for their teeth to shift, and by the time they get through that year two period, funny, they.

Don't bite their nails anymore.

Don't bite their nails anymore.

And that is basically make it difficult, you know, like they can't do it anymore, and so the friction is so high that they need to take the liner out to do it, and you know anyway, So that's make it difficult. And then the fourth and final one is make it unsatisfying. They make all kinds of products they've got, like nail polishes and stuff that taste terrible and you know, things like that. Those are just some quick examples of how to apply that framework. There are many ways to do these things. In this specific example of biting your nails, I found is that a lot of people bite their nails while they're doing something else, like they're in the middle of like writing it. Yeah, they like do it while they're thinking, or.

And that is basically make it difficult, you know, like they can't do it anymore, and so the friction is so high that they need to take the liner out to do it, and you know anyway, So that's make it difficult. And then the fourth and final one is make it unsatisfying. They make all kinds of products they've got, like nail polishes and stuff that taste terrible and you know, things like that. Those are just some quick examples of how to apply that framework. There are many ways to do these things. In this specific example of biting your nails, I found is that a lot of people bite their nails while they're doing something else, like they're in the middle of like writing it. Yeah, they like do it while they're thinking, or.

They do it while they're exactly So.

They do it while they're exactly So.

Let's say that you do the invisiline thing because you're like, Okay, that kind of makes sense. That's an easy way for me to you know, like increase the friction. Yeah, but you probably still need some outlet for that energy. Like the picking or the chewing or whatever was something that you did kind of mindlessly as you were working on something else.

Let's say that you do the invisiline thing because you're like, Okay, that kind of makes sense. That's an easy way for me to you know, like increase the friction. Yeah, but you probably still need some outlet for that energy. Like the picking or the chewing or whatever was something that you did kind of mindlessly as you were working on something else.

So yeah, maybe you can figure out what it means for you.

So yeah, maybe you can figure out what it means for you.

But maybe it's like a little squeeze ball on your desk or just a fidget spinner or whatever. But you probably need some outlet for that energy that can replace that hat.

But maybe it's like a little squeeze ball on your desk or just a fidget spinner or whatever. But you probably need some outlet for that energy that can replace that hat.

That's yeah, that's a nice insight, which is my fingers have become my fidget toy. I carry my fidget.

That's yeah, that's a nice insight, which is my fingers have become my fidget toy. I carry my fidget.

Toy wherever I go.

Toy wherever I go.

It's is kind of what it is. If I can replace it make something else more enjoyable. Very interesting, And so what you find with a lot of these strategies in the book, there is no one way to build.

It's is kind of what it is. If I can replace it make something else more enjoyable. Very interesting, And so what you find with a lot of these strategies in the book, there is no one way to build.

Better habits or to break bad habits.

Better habits or to break bad habits.

There are many ways, and in most cases, what you find is that you don't need a single shift. You need kind of a system of three or four, maybe even ten little adjustments that you make and collectively they all work together to kind of usher you in the right direction.

There are many ways, and in most cases, what you find is that you don't need a single shift. You need kind of a system of three or four, maybe even ten little adjustments that you make and collectively they all work together to kind of usher you in the right direction.

That's all the little things.

That's all the little things.

Yeah, and I assume that your books spikes in sales in January.

Yeah, and I assume that your books spikes in sales in January.

It is high, it is highest, for sure. The first week of January is the biggest.

It is high, it is highest, for sure. The first week of January is the biggest.

You are the book equivalent of the gym membership.

You are the book equivalent of the gym membership.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, for sure.

And everybody wants good habits and breaks bad habits for the new year. So I assume one of the big ones is going getting back in shape, go to the gym.

And everybody wants good habits and breaks bad habits for the new year. So I assume one of the big ones is going getting back in shape, go to the gym.

Exercise. You're right, exercise is the most common new Year's resolution. So let's remember those four laws real quick. So make it obvious, make it attractive, make it easy, make it satisfying. That's for building a good habit. And again, there are many ways to do each of these things. Make it obvious is like, you know, you set your water bottle and your running shoes and your gym shorts out the night before, and it's right there when you get out of bed. I actually have some readers who they will sleep in their running shorts so that all they got to do when they get up is throw a shirt on and then step out the door.

Exercise. You're right, exercise is the most common new Year's resolution. So let's remember those four laws real quick. So make it obvious, make it attractive, make it easy, make it satisfying. That's for building a good habit. And again, there are many ways to do each of these things. Make it obvious is like, you know, you set your water bottle and your running shoes and your gym shorts out the night before, and it's right there when you get out of bed. I actually have some readers who they will sleep in their running shorts so that all they got to do when they get up is throw a shirt on and then step out the door.

And go for a run.

And go for a run.

I have, weirdly, I have noticed that that works for me if I wake up in the morning and I put my workout clothes on. Even if I am kind of vague about whether I'm planning on working out or not, I definitely do feel more like going downstairs and like doing it.

I have, weirdly, I have noticed that that works for me if I wake up in the morning and I put my workout clothes on. Even if I am kind of vague about whether I'm planning on working out or not, I definitely do feel more like going downstairs and like doing it.

Workout.

Workout.

For me, it's a momentum issue, right, which is once I start, I'm great. Yes, the starting, that's the problem, sure, And I'm okay disappointing myself. So if I meet a friend at the gym, I will be there on time because I don't want to disappoint them.

For me, it's a momentum issue, right, which is once I start, I'm great. Yes, the starting, that's the problem, sure, And I'm okay disappointing myself. So if I meet a friend at the gym, I will be there on time because I don't want to disappoint them.

Yep. But I am.

Yep. But I am.

Perfectly happy to wake up early and then sit in bed and read the newspaper for an hour and then get to the point was like, oh, it's no time to work out anymore because I'm just disappointing myself. Like whatever I can do with that, you know, Well.

Perfectly happy to wake up early and then sit in bed and read the newspaper for an hour and then get to the point was like, oh, it's no time to work out anymore because I'm just disappointing myself. Like whatever I can do with that, you know, Well.

Those are two really good insights, which is, you know, having some kind of workout buddy or somebody that you meet at the gym or meet for a run or at yoga or whatever is a good motivator for a lot of people, and so that alone could be the answer, you know. So that's make it obvious. Second step here is make it attractive. So I wish I had richen and this.

Those are two really good insights, which is, you know, having some kind of workout buddy or somebody that you meet at the gym or meet for a run or at yoga or whatever is a good motivator for a lot of people, and so that alone could be the answer, you know. So that's make it obvious. Second step here is make it attractive. So I wish I had richen and this.

In the book.

In the book.

This is one of the few things that I didn't include that I wish I would have. I think it is worth it for any habit, not just exercise, to sit with the question of what would this look like if it was fun? What would this look like if it was enjoyable for me to work out? What would it look like if I had fun meditating every day? What would it look like if it was fun to write? And that doesn't mean that your habits will be the most fun thing in your life, Like your habits are not going to feel like going to a concert or something like that. But there may not be a thousand ways to do everything in life, but there is almost always more than one way. And you should choose the version that is most naturally motivating or exciting to you In a lot of ways, I feel like this is one of the biggest hurdles to cross, which is are you genuinely interested in it? And you should choose the version of living an active life. You should choose the version that is most interesting to you. I think if you can figure out how to make your habits fun, that is a great starting point. Okay, So make it obvious, made attractive. Third step, make it easy. So scaling it down is a huge part of making habits sustainable. I recommend people use the two minute rule, which just says, take whatever habit you're trying to use or trying to build, and you scale it down to something that takes two minutes or less to do. So read thirty books a year becomes read one page, or do yoga four days a week becomes take out my yoga mat.

This is one of the few things that I didn't include that I wish I would have. I think it is worth it for any habit, not just exercise, to sit with the question of what would this look like if it was fun? What would this look like if it was enjoyable for me to work out? What would it look like if I had fun meditating every day? What would it look like if it was fun to write? And that doesn't mean that your habits will be the most fun thing in your life, Like your habits are not going to feel like going to a concert or something like that. But there may not be a thousand ways to do everything in life, but there is almost always more than one way. And you should choose the version that is most naturally motivating or exciting to you In a lot of ways, I feel like this is one of the biggest hurdles to cross, which is are you genuinely interested in it? And you should choose the version of living an active life. You should choose the version that is most interesting to you. I think if you can figure out how to make your habits fun, that is a great starting point. Okay, So make it obvious, made attractive. Third step, make it easy. So scaling it down is a huge part of making habits sustainable. I recommend people use the two minute rule, which just says, take whatever habit you're trying to use or trying to build, and you scale it down to something that takes two minutes or less to do. So read thirty books a year becomes read one page, or do yoga four days a week becomes take out my yoga mat.

And sometimes people resist it.

And sometimes people resist it.

But there's this deep truth about habits, which is a habit must be established before it can be improved. You know, we're so focused on optimizing a lot of the time. We're so focused on finding the perfect sales strategy, the best diet plan, the perfect workout program. We're so focused on optimizing that we don't give ourselves permission to show up in a small way. If you can scale it down, just focus on the first minute that often gets you going, and the momentum kind of carries you forward, and then final thing. Fourth laws, make it satisfying, and this can take many different shapes. There can be external rewards, like if you don't miss a workout for a week, you take a bubble bath, or go for a walk in the woods, or buy yourself the piece of clothing you've been saving for or whatever. But in the long run, I think the true way to make habits satisfying is that you start to draw this through line between your habits and your identity. You start to connect what you're doing with the type of person you.

But there's this deep truth about habits, which is a habit must be established before it can be improved. You know, we're so focused on optimizing a lot of the time. We're so focused on finding the perfect sales strategy, the best diet plan, the perfect workout program. We're so focused on optimizing that we don't give ourselves permission to show up in a small way. If you can scale it down, just focus on the first minute that often gets you going, and the momentum kind of carries you forward, and then final thing. Fourth laws, make it satisfying, and this can take many different shapes. There can be external rewards, like if you don't miss a workout for a week, you take a bubble bath, or go for a walk in the woods, or buy yourself the piece of clothing you've been saving for or whatever. But in the long run, I think the true way to make habits satisfying is that you start to draw this through line between your habits and your identity. You start to connect what you're doing with the type of person you.

Want to be. And that's kind of where I am now.

Want to be. And that's kind of where I am now.

I just like being the kind of person that works out or that doesn't misworkouts, or that takes care of my body or that moves And so whenever I'm doing a workout, even if I'm just in the middle of the first set, at some deep level, I'm feeling good about myself because I'm doing what I want to do or that I'm acting in the way that I hope to be. And if you can connect your identity with your habits, that ends up being a pretty powerful reward in itself.

I just like being the kind of person that works out or that doesn't misworkouts, or that takes care of my body or that moves And so whenever I'm doing a workout, even if I'm just in the middle of the first set, at some deep level, I'm feeling good about myself because I'm doing what I want to do or that I'm acting in the way that I hope to be. And if you can connect your identity with your habits, that ends up being a pretty powerful reward in itself.

I love where this is going, but I need to take a quick break and then we'll get back into it.

I love where this is going, but I need to take a quick break and then we'll get back into it.

What's next for building habits or for me?

What's next for building habits or for me?

No, for you? Do you want to be the habits guy for the rest of your life? Are you okay with that.

No, for you? Do you want to be the habits guy for the rest of your life? Are you okay with that.

That's an interesting question. I think I have way too varied of interest to do that forever. But I'm happy to do it for this like five or ten year period and a lot of people are finding value in it. I just want to be useful, you know. I want to provide something valuable to people, to contribute my little bit to my corner of humanity. And a lot of people have found atomic habits and the principle is useful, and so that makes me feel good to contribute something.

That's an interesting question. I think I have way too varied of interest to do that forever. But I'm happy to do it for this like five or ten year period and a lot of people are finding value in it. I just want to be useful, you know. I want to provide something valuable to people, to contribute my little bit to my corner of humanity. And a lot of people have found atomic habits and the principle is useful, and so that makes me feel good to contribute something.

Sure, so in that sense, I really like it.

Sure, so in that sense, I really like it.

But of course I have many other parts of my personality and many other things that I'm interested in, and so at some point I will for sure. You know, I'm already pursuing some other projects, but at some point I will probably make those.

But of course I have many other parts of my personality and many other things that I'm interested in, and so at some point I will for sure. You know, I'm already pursuing some other projects, but at some point I will probably make those.

Because I can tell you from my standpoint. When I wrote start with Why, I'd been giving that speech for like two to three years already, yeah, you know, and everybody hired me for two to three years to give that speech. Then I came out with the book, and then the Ted talk came out, and then the request for the speech is increased, and people called me the Why guy. And I'm fully aware of the value of that idea, and was proud to be the sponsor and the preacher of that idea. I believed in it. I still live my life based on it. But I reached a point where I was like, even my publisher when I wrote my second book, they designed it to look like the first book, you know, as if they were we were serializing it, and the thought of being stuck in a lane, even if it was, and that the temptation was high, right, I could have been like, you know, find your why for teachers, find your wife for families, find your wife for doctors, you know, find your wife for you know, cat owners, And it would have been a fantastic, profitable, wonderful serialized concept. But my god, the thought of being stuck in one lane for my whole life was like I can't, I can't, and so and I'll tell you something that's just funny. I was so obsessed with getting away from being stuck.

Because I can tell you from my standpoint. When I wrote start with Why, I'd been giving that speech for like two to three years already, yeah, you know, and everybody hired me for two to three years to give that speech. Then I came out with the book, and then the Ted talk came out, and then the request for the speech is increased, and people called me the Why guy. And I'm fully aware of the value of that idea, and was proud to be the sponsor and the preacher of that idea. I believed in it. I still live my life based on it. But I reached a point where I was like, even my publisher when I wrote my second book, they designed it to look like the first book, you know, as if they were we were serializing it, and the thought of being stuck in a lane, even if it was, and that the temptation was high, right, I could have been like, you know, find your why for teachers, find your wife for families, find your wife for doctors, you know, find your wife for you know, cat owners, And it would have been a fantastic, profitable, wonderful serialized concept. But my god, the thought of being stuck in one lane for my whole life was like I can't, I can't, and so and I'll tell you something that's just funny. I was so obsessed with getting away from being stuck.

In one lane.

In one lane.

Not only did I have them redesign the cover of Leaders Eat Last so that it looked nothing like the first book, but every book I've ever published is a completely different size format. And you can't line all my five books up on a shelf and have them sit easily, neatly in a box or neatly on a shelf. They're all completely different sizes, which I did on purpose because every time I write a book, I want it. It's a declaration that this is completely different than whatever you've seen before.

Not only did I have them redesign the cover of Leaders Eat Last so that it looked nothing like the first book, but every book I've ever published is a completely different size format. And you can't line all my five books up on a shelf and have them sit easily, neatly in a box or neatly on a shelf. They're all completely different sizes, which I did on purpose because every time I write a book, I want it. It's a declaration that this is completely different than whatever you've seen before.

You want to feel like its own thing. Yeah.

You want to feel like its own thing. Yeah.

Can I ask you something about your career? So you're like probably five to ten years ahead of where I'm at, you know, I'm like pretty early.

Can I ask you something about your career? So you're like probably five to ten years ahead of where I'm at, you know, I'm like pretty early.

Do you think about or strategize about your business differently now than you used to?

Do you think about or strategize about your business differently now than you used to?

Like, was there a period where you were really committed to like capitalizing on every opportunity or trying to grow the brand or audience as big as you could or I don't know, like take this thing to some stratospheric level. And now you don't feel that way. You're more like, no, I'm gonna do stuff for free just because I like it, and I'm not that worried about how big the audience is or how many events are coming in or whatever. Or do you find yourself still in that growth grow grow growth mindset?

Like, was there a period where you were really committed to like capitalizing on every opportunity or trying to grow the brand or audience as big as you could or I don't know, like take this thing to some stratospheric level. And now you don't feel that way. You're more like, no, I'm gonna do stuff for free just because I like it, and I'm not that worried about how big the audience is or how many events are coming in or whatever. Or do you find yourself still in that growth grow grow growth mindset?

Yeah for sure. So the strategy I follow now is the exact same strategy I followed fifteen years ago when nobody knew my name and nobody ever heard of my ideas. And it's still based on the same two ideas that I wrote about and start with why.

Yeah for sure. So the strategy I follow now is the exact same strategy I followed fifteen years ago when nobody knew my name and nobody ever heard of my ideas. And it's still based on the same two ideas that I wrote about and start with why.

One.

One.

I start with why obsessively to this day. And the second thing is the law of diffusion of innovations is like a religion to me, where I ignore the majority and I ignore the practical stuff, and I'm obsessed with the early adopters and the people who believe what I believe. I've never thought about my business as a business. I always think about it as a movement. And even in our company, we don't say is this good for the company? We say is this good for the movement? And so I've always treated my work like a social movement. And so the decisions I make are will this help advance the message and the idea versus how much am I going to get from this? So, for example, I have a hierarchy of what I say yes to. My favorite events are like five thousand people representing four thousand different companies, because it's going to take my message and it's going to spread it in a gossamer fashion to as many people as possible. The next level down is it's one hundred different CEOs, so small audience, but huge impact that goes broad. Then the next one is a lot of people from one company. But my least favorite that I almost always say no to is like, come talk to our top three hundred salespeople, you know, because the most that will ever happen is they'll talk about my work in the hallway, and I need them to talk about my work to people who aren't there. And so I've always followed that strategy from day one to this day, which is how do I spread the message to as many people as possible. And in terms of finances, it's the same thing like in the early days. I remember a guy called me up. He said, and this is before a book and before a Ted talk. I just had this concept of the why he called me up and he said, I heard about you, convinced me why I should hire you. And I said, don't.

I start with why obsessively to this day. And the second thing is the law of diffusion of innovations is like a religion to me, where I ignore the majority and I ignore the practical stuff, and I'm obsessed with the early adopters and the people who believe what I believe. I've never thought about my business as a business. I always think about it as a movement. And even in our company, we don't say is this good for the company? We say is this good for the movement? And so I've always treated my work like a social movement. And so the decisions I make are will this help advance the message and the idea versus how much am I going to get from this? So, for example, I have a hierarchy of what I say yes to. My favorite events are like five thousand people representing four thousand different companies, because it's going to take my message and it's going to spread it in a gossamer fashion to as many people as possible. The next level down is it's one hundred different CEOs, so small audience, but huge impact that goes broad. Then the next one is a lot of people from one company. But my least favorite that I almost always say no to is like, come talk to our top three hundred salespeople, you know, because the most that will ever happen is they'll talk about my work in the hallway, and I need them to talk about my work to people who aren't there. And so I've always followed that strategy from day one to this day, which is how do I spread the message to as many people as possible. And in terms of finances, it's the same thing like in the early days. I remember a guy called me up. He said, and this is before a book and before a Ted talk. I just had this concept of the why he called me up and he said, I heard about you, convinced me why I should hire you. And I said, don't.

Now.

Now.

I needed every I was living paycheck to paycheck, hand to mouth. I had no money. I'd known nothing as just an idiot with an idea. But I knew that anybody who says convince me or I should hire you was not an early adopter. And so everything in that financial relationship. Though I would have made money in the short term, it would have not have survived, it would not have become an effective long term relationship. I would rather say yes to people who said who would say to me, you're onto something. I don't think it's perfect, but I really think you're onto something special. I don't have much of a budget, but I really believe in what you're doing, and I'm willing to let you test your stuff on my company. I said yes to those almost always, and not only did those relationships flourish, but they introduced me to other people. Other people became my champions, and so I built my cause and I built my business without any marketing because I made values based decisions. So I got along really well with the people that I worked with, and they really wanted me to meet other people that they knew, and they were my marketers. And so those strategies a little more complicated today because now I'm also viewed as the entertainment, you know, because I'm a bit more of a known quantity. I'm not just this preacher standing on a stage that yeah, some early adopters.

I needed every I was living paycheck to paycheck, hand to mouth. I had no money. I'd known nothing as just an idiot with an idea. But I knew that anybody who says convince me or I should hire you was not an early adopter. And so everything in that financial relationship. Though I would have made money in the short term, it would have not have survived, it would not have become an effective long term relationship. I would rather say yes to people who said who would say to me, you're onto something. I don't think it's perfect, but I really think you're onto something special. I don't have much of a budget, but I really believe in what you're doing, and I'm willing to let you test your stuff on my company. I said yes to those almost always, and not only did those relationships flourish, but they introduced me to other people. Other people became my champions, and so I built my cause and I built my business without any marketing because I made values based decisions. So I got along really well with the people that I worked with, and they really wanted me to meet other people that they knew, and they were my marketers. And so those strategies a little more complicated today because now I'm also viewed as the entertainment, you know, because I'm a bit more of a known quantity. I'm not just this preacher standing on a stage that yeah, some early adopters.

Like, weirdly, before you were well known, it had to be about the ideas because you didn't have.

Like, weirdly, before you were well known, it had to be about the ideas because you didn't have.

Your own path, had nothing else.

Your own path, had nothing else.

Now it's kind of like some people will hire you just to be like, look who we brought in for you.

Now it's kind of like some people will hire you just to be like, look who we brought in for you.

Yeah, that happens, and the ideas are there too.

Yeah, that happens, and the ideas are there too.

But you know that in some cases your brand alone is on equal footing with what you're saying.

But you know that in some cases your brand alone is on equal footing with what you're saying.

And so now I have to add new criteria, which is I have to be able to scale ideas and invite and get as many people to join the army to build the help others industry. Forget the self help industry, it's the help others industry that we need.

And so now I have to add new criteria, which is I have to be able to scale ideas and invite and get as many people to join the army to build the help others industry. Forget the self help industry, it's the help others industry that we need.

What about your next chapter? What do you like? Where do you feel like you go from here?

What about your next chapter? What do you like? Where do you feel like you go from here?

I'm in this magical period of so I embrace this concept of I don't know right, I'm not afraid of it. It doesn't bother me. So when somebody says what's next for you, my answer is I don't know. And for me, embracing I don't know is the first step to inventing. It's the first step of creativity because if I knew what I was going to do next, then there's no innovation. There's no need to invent something. I just do a backplan right, Like so many people, I am upset with the state of our nation and how we're at each other's throats and how divided we are. How do we get past that? How do we get to see each other, learn to have conversations with people who we maybe vehemently disagree with. You know, we're more separated, more anxious, more lonely. How do I help foster relationship? And my biggest one, to be honest with you, I want to see a return to idealism. You know, we've forgotten the concept of world peace. We don't talk about world peace anymore. Why not, Like that's a pretty noble cause to pursue, and I would like to pursue world peace again. And I think idealism has become corny and I want idealism back. And when you ask me, like, how do we get idealism back? My answers I don't know. And so I'm sitting in this period right now, I don't know, on a journey of trying to figure out how we get back to idealism because we need it and we crave it, and we're lost without it. We have to take a quick break and we'll be right back. Can you tell me something specific you've done in your career, a specific project you've been a part of, anything like that. It doesn't have to have even been commercially successful, ye that you absolutely loved being a part of it or loved doing it. And if every project, where, every day was like this, you'd be the happiest person in the world.

I'm in this magical period of so I embrace this concept of I don't know right, I'm not afraid of it. It doesn't bother me. So when somebody says what's next for you, my answer is I don't know. And for me, embracing I don't know is the first step to inventing. It's the first step of creativity because if I knew what I was going to do next, then there's no innovation. There's no need to invent something. I just do a backplan right, Like so many people, I am upset with the state of our nation and how we're at each other's throats and how divided we are. How do we get past that? How do we get to see each other, learn to have conversations with people who we maybe vehemently disagree with. You know, we're more separated, more anxious, more lonely. How do I help foster relationship? And my biggest one, to be honest with you, I want to see a return to idealism. You know, we've forgotten the concept of world peace. We don't talk about world peace anymore. Why not, Like that's a pretty noble cause to pursue, and I would like to pursue world peace again. And I think idealism has become corny and I want idealism back. And when you ask me, like, how do we get idealism back? My answers I don't know. And so I'm sitting in this period right now, I don't know, on a journey of trying to figure out how we get back to idealism because we need it and we crave it, and we're lost without it. We have to take a quick break and we'll be right back. Can you tell me something specific you've done in your career, a specific project you've been a part of, anything like that. It doesn't have to have even been commercially successful, ye that you absolutely loved being a part of it or loved doing it. And if every project, where, every day was like this, you'd be the happiest person in the world.

So I have three that come to mind. One is in my business.

So I have three that come to mind. One is in my business.

Two are completely unrelated and not commercial. They were like personal things. Okay, so the business one is three two one. My weekly newsletter is just fun for me. It's such a different form of right. It's so you know, it takes me about two hours to do it a week, and then I spend some portion of the week kind of researching for it and stuff, but it's it's just fun. It's three short ideas for me. They're basically tweets. It's two quotes from other people, and then it's one question to think about.

Two are completely unrelated and not commercial. They were like personal things. Okay, so the business one is three two one. My weekly newsletter is just fun for me. It's such a different form of right. It's so you know, it takes me about two hours to do it a week, and then I spend some portion of the week kind of researching for it and stuff, but it's it's just fun. It's three short ideas for me. They're basically tweets. It's two quotes from other people, and then it's one question to think about.

For some reason, that format resonates with people.

For some reason, that format resonates with people.

They like it, they can read it in six minutes and they get value out of it.

They like it, they can read it in six minutes and they get value out of it.

And it's just fun for me to do have some small.

And it's just fun for me to do have some small.

Creative output, and people really enjoy it.

Creative output, and people really enjoy it.

So that's like on a personal side.

So that's like on a personal side.

The other two are team related, and if I'm honest, they're probably like two of the most fulfilling things that I've ever done. So first one was my junior and senior seasons in particular of baseball. I was team captain. There were a couple of other captains too, but we just had a really great crew. And you know, you don't get to pick your teammates. They're kind of like family. You don't get to choose who comes in with you. And we just really clicked. Like you could pay me a million dollars to do anything else, and I would say no. I just knew I wasn't making any money. I was a student, you know, but I just like, it doesn't matter. I don't want to be anywhere else than where I'm at right now. And honestly, once you get a little taste of that in some area of your life, to a large degree, I've been chasing that, you know, ever since having that feeling, and some of it is just like magical, and it's a confluence of factors that you can't force or fabricate. It just kind of arises when the right group of people get together. So some of it's very hard to imitate, but I would say that probably is part of what I miss the most in my current work. Being an author is very gratifying, but it's also pretty individual. There's the relationship between me and the reader, but it's different than being on a team. So that was the second one, and then the final one is an orientation team that I was on. It was like fourteen or fifteen people and we were helping this like kind of new cohort come in and we just had a blast. We only worked together for two weeks, but they're like six of us that are still like best friends.

The other two are team related, and if I'm honest, they're probably like two of the most fulfilling things that I've ever done. So first one was my junior and senior seasons in particular of baseball. I was team captain. There were a couple of other captains too, but we just had a really great crew. And you know, you don't get to pick your teammates. They're kind of like family. You don't get to choose who comes in with you. And we just really clicked. Like you could pay me a million dollars to do anything else, and I would say no. I just knew I wasn't making any money. I was a student, you know, but I just like, it doesn't matter. I don't want to be anywhere else than where I'm at right now. And honestly, once you get a little taste of that in some area of your life, to a large degree, I've been chasing that, you know, ever since having that feeling, and some of it is just like magical, and it's a confluence of factors that you can't force or fabricate. It just kind of arises when the right group of people get together. So some of it's very hard to imitate, but I would say that probably is part of what I miss the most in my current work. Being an author is very gratifying, but it's also pretty individual. There's the relationship between me and the reader, but it's different than being on a team. So that was the second one, and then the final one is an orientation team that I was on. It was like fourteen or fifteen people and we were helping this like kind of new cohort come in and we just had a blast. We only worked together for two weeks, but they're like six of us that are still like best friends.

Now. I met my wife through it.

Now. I met my wife through it.

Like it was just you talk to anybody who was on that team for two weeks, and I don't know what it was, but we just clicked. And I don't know, there's something, there's some kind of magical thing about that.

Like it was just you talk to anybody who was on that team for two weeks, and I don't know what it was, but we just clicked. And I don't know, there's something, there's some kind of magical thing about that.

And you know, I've been.

And you know, I've been.

On many teams sports and otherwise, and for some reason, those two experiences were the ones that really came together.

On many teams sports and otherwise, and for some reason, those two experiences were the ones that really came together.

What specifically was it about those two that was different from other teams. I get it it was clicked. I get the result, But what you know, if you think about that baseball team, for example, you were in many teams, some of them were winning, some of them were losing teams. But what specifically was it about that team that year that stands out that you even want to talk to me about it now.

What specifically was it about those two that was different from other teams. I get it it was clicked. I get the result, But what you know, if you think about that baseball team, for example, you were in many teams, some of them were winning, some of them were losing teams. But what specifically was it about that team that year that stands out that you even want to talk to me about it now.

I think the one part of it was everybody bought into their role. You know, like a lot of the time, people were always jockeying for different roles. Different players want more playing time, or if it's in a business context, different people want to be in different positions or climb.

I think the one part of it was everybody bought into their role. You know, like a lot of the time, people were always jockeying for different roles. Different players want more playing time, or if it's in a business context, different people want to be in different positions or climb.

The ladder or whatever.

The ladder or whatever.

But that year, like the freshmen were really happy being freshmen and the role that they played, and the seniors were happy to be the leaders, and it was, I don't know, it just like it worked together well, and so everybody kind of bought in to their part and how they were contributing. Of course, everybody always wants to play, but there was a real buy in from everybody. So that helped for my part. I made a point to learn all the freshman's names like the first day, which sounds like not a big deal, but I think they were like eighteen that year, so there's you know, fair number of new faces, and then to go around and tell each of them what we were trying to achieve that year, how they could help and just like make it clear, like this is what we're working toward. If you don't want this, then you shouldn't be here because like this is what we're really trying to do. And I think we got to the time when the season.

But that year, like the freshmen were really happy being freshmen and the role that they played, and the seniors were happy to be the leaders, and it was, I don't know, it just like it worked together well, and so everybody kind of bought in to their part and how they were contributing. Of course, everybody always wants to play, but there was a real buy in from everybody. So that helped for my part. I made a point to learn all the freshman's names like the first day, which sounds like not a big deal, but I think they were like eighteen that year, so there's you know, fair number of new faces, and then to go around and tell each of them what we were trying to achieve that year, how they could help and just like make it clear, like this is what we're working toward. If you don't want this, then you shouldn't be here because like this is what we're really trying to do. And I think we got to the time when the season.

Started everybody's just very aligned. That helped a lot.

Started everybody's just very aligned. That helped a lot.

And then you know, some of it is just you can't control the personalities that are involved, and we were lucky to have good personalities.

And then you know, some of it is just you can't control the personalities that are involved, and we were lucky to have good personalities.

And what about the orientation? What was it about those two weeks? What is it about specifically? Again, you said you've been on a lot of teams, what was specifically?

And what about the orientation? What was it about those two weeks? What is it about specifically? Again, you said you've been on a lot of teams, what was specifically?

It was so playful compared to so many other teams are serious or like, I don't know, like we all we all were smart enough and talented enough, we got the work done, but it was just like one big fun time. It actually makes me think and question how serious we really need to be to perform well a lot of the time, and would we actually do a lot better if we were just having way more fun. And that was easily the team that I had the most fun fun, and so I think that was an enormous part of it.

It was so playful compared to so many other teams are serious or like, I don't know, like we all we all were smart enough and talented enough, we got the work done, but it was just like one big fun time. It actually makes me think and question how serious we really need to be to perform well a lot of the time, and would we actually do a lot better if we were just having way more fun. And that was easily the team that I had the most fun fun, and so I think that was an enormous part of it.

Tell me an early specific, happy childhood memory, something specific that I can relive with you.

Tell me an early specific, happy childhood memory, something specific that I can relive with you.

Okay, my grandparents on my dad's side have a farm and one specific summer, I think I was twelve. My cousin and I who's like five days apart for me, so we like the exact same age. We went down into the farm field and there's a creek and we started to build a dam down there. We were trying to create this little kind of pond, and we convinced my dad to haul an eighty pound bag of concrete down there, so he does this for us, you know, sweat like crazy, and then we built this little mold and created our own little dam down there at the bottom of the creek and made our little pond. I mean to call this a pond as a stretch right, it's like probably the size of like three bath thubs. But so anyway, we've got this little area we're playing out in all summer, and we came across this doll somehow that was like it was just in the woods and it had long since decayed and stuff. It didn't have any eyes and it was kind of like falling apart. But we positioned it in the middle of the dam, and so there's this little waterfall, the water coming out of the eyes and out of the mouth. It's probably a very creepy scene to anybody who stumbles across in the woods. But my cousin and I had a blast down there that summer.

Okay, my grandparents on my dad's side have a farm and one specific summer, I think I was twelve. My cousin and I who's like five days apart for me, so we like the exact same age. We went down into the farm field and there's a creek and we started to build a dam down there. We were trying to create this little kind of pond, and we convinced my dad to haul an eighty pound bag of concrete down there, so he does this for us, you know, sweat like crazy, and then we built this little mold and created our own little dam down there at the bottom of the creek and made our little pond. I mean to call this a pond as a stretch right, it's like probably the size of like three bath thubs. But so anyway, we've got this little area we're playing out in all summer, and we came across this doll somehow that was like it was just in the woods and it had long since decayed and stuff. It didn't have any eyes and it was kind of like falling apart. But we positioned it in the middle of the dam, and so there's this little waterfall, the water coming out of the eyes and out of the mouth. It's probably a very creepy scene to anybody who stumbles across in the woods. But my cousin and I had a blast down there that summer.

It was awesome. So I have a very strong.

It was awesome. So I have a very strong.

Affinity for the outdoors and love doing stuff outside, and big part of my childhood is out there. But anyway, that is one of the many random little memories I have.

Affinity for the outdoors and love doing stuff outside, and big part of my childhood is out there. But anyway, that is one of the many random little memories I have.

Sounds like you had a fun childhood. It's you know, of all the silly fun things you did. What specifically was it about this one thing that you did with your cousin that stands out that you want to talk about it now?

Sounds like you had a fun childhood. It's you know, of all the silly fun things you did. What specifically was it about this one thing that you did with your cousin that stands out that you want to talk about it now?

Mm?

Mm?

There were no adults involved, so it was just us, like we could do whatever we wanted, whatever our vision was.

There were no adults involved, so it was just us, like we could do whatever we wanted, whatever our vision was.

And now I love That's.

And now I love That's.

Like one of my favorite parts of being an entrepreneur is that I try and I try to practice this. I don't always do it, but I try to be really good about this. I try to not be my own bottleneck in life. So often people will talk themselves out of an idea before the world actually prevents it from happening, and as best as possible, I try not to do that. I think, like, what would the magical outcome be? You know, what would the ideal outcome be? And then work backwards from magic, and you'd be surprised how often things are possible that so.

Like one of my favorite parts of being an entrepreneur is that I try and I try to practice this. I don't always do it, but I try to be really good about this. I try to not be my own bottleneck in life. So often people will talk themselves out of an idea before the world actually prevents it from happening, and as best as possible, I try not to do that. I think, like, what would the magical outcome be? You know, what would the ideal outcome be? And then work backwards from magic, and you'd be surprised how often things are possible that so.

Many people will only attempt something.

Many people will only attempt something.

If they can already see an example of somebody else who has done it, And they're like, you know, so you come up with a big idea and then they're like, well are people doing that yet? If you always have to wait to see an example of somebody doing something before you attempt it, I don't know, Like your path through life is unique, you know, not ever, no one's going to have your exact strengths and weaknesses and resources and opportunities whatever.

If they can already see an example of somebody else who has done it, And they're like, you know, so you come up with a big idea and then they're like, well are people doing that yet? If you always have to wait to see an example of somebody doing something before you attempt it, I don't know, Like your path through life is unique, you know, not ever, no one's going to have your exact strengths and weaknesses and resources and opportunities whatever.

Like, you got to find your own way in a lot of ways.

Like, you got to find your own way in a lot of ways.

You are the example, and so you can't let that be a reason for not attempting it. Now you still have to wrestle with reality, you know, you still got to handle all that stuff. It's not that you can just live in this fairy tear world and not deal with any of that. But I think that that summer with my cousin was an early trial run of brainstorm experiment wildly what would the magical outcome be? And then just work backwards from that, like we're just doing it because we were twelve when we thought it was fun, and now I think, I'm like, okay, well I'm in my thirties, but what is fun? What's the magical outcome now? So I think that that part of my personality kind of got to shine.

You are the example, and so you can't let that be a reason for not attempting it. Now you still have to wrestle with reality, you know, you still got to handle all that stuff. It's not that you can just live in this fairy tear world and not deal with any of that. But I think that that summer with my cousin was an early trial run of brainstorm experiment wildly what would the magical outcome be? And then just work backwards from that, like we're just doing it because we were twelve when we thought it was fun, and now I think, I'm like, okay, well I'm in my thirties, but what is fun? What's the magical outcome now? So I think that that part of my personality kind of got to shine.

So all three of those stories are the same story, which is you light up when you share those stories in a way that you don't really light it when you're talking about atomic habits. And maybe it's just because you've talked about it so much for a few years now, but you light up and you use the word fun so many times.

So all three of those stories are the same story, which is you light up when you share those stories in a way that you don't really light it when you're talking about atomic habits. And maybe it's just because you've talked about it so much for a few years now, but you light up and you use the word fun so many times.

In a lot lot of ways.

In a lot lot of ways.

I think that one of the most magical things that humans can do is they can create something, not necessarily something from nothing, but something that didn't exist before. Often it's not from nothing, it's like it's a synthesis of things that were previously unconnected, or that ideas that were previously untapped. And that is the most fun for me, Like I didn't realize this about myself until recently, but what I really want is to be building something. As long as I'm creating something, it could be building a new house, it could be building a book, it could be creating a website. Whatever it is, I want to be making something, and that's the part that's the most fun.

I think that one of the most magical things that humans can do is they can create something, not necessarily something from nothing, but something that didn't exist before. Often it's not from nothing, it's like it's a synthesis of things that were previously unconnected, or that ideas that were previously untapped. And that is the most fun for me, Like I didn't realize this about myself until recently, but what I really want is to be building something. As long as I'm creating something, it could be building a new house, it could be building a book, it could be creating a website. Whatever it is, I want to be making something, and that's the part that's the most fun.

James, an absolute pleasure getting to talk to you, an absolute pleasure getting to know you a little bit more. Thanks so much for coming on. I really appreciate it.

James, an absolute pleasure getting to talk to you, an absolute pleasure getting to know you a little bit more. Thanks so much for coming on. I really appreciate it.

Yeah, it's awesome. Thanks, Simon, my pleasure.

Yeah, it's awesome. Thanks, Simon, my pleasure.

If you enjoyed this podcast, I would like to hear more. Please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts, and if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website Simon sinek dot com for classes, videos and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.

If you enjoyed this podcast, I would like to hear more. Please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts, and if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website Simon sinek dot com for classes, videos and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.