Join host Chris Clarke for an insightful discussion with journalist Kyle Paoletta about his book "American Oasis: Finding the Future in the Cities of the Southwest." Explore surprising histories and contemporary challenges of cities like Albuquerque, Las Vegas, and El Paso, and their role in shaping the desert Southwest. The episode examines urbanization, civil rights movements, and the cultural interconnectedness of cities across political borders. 

Join host Chris Clarke for an insightful discussion with journalist Kyle Paoletta about his book "American Oasis: Finding the Future in the Cities of the Southwest." Explore surprising histories and contemporary challenges of cities like Albuquerque, Las Vegas, and El Paso, and their role in shaping the desert Southwest. The episode examines urbanization, civil rights movements, and the cultural interconnectedness of cities across political borders.&nbsp;

It's not a real desert hike unless you get thirsty. Unless your skin gets punctured by an innocent-looking plant. Unless you have a close encounter with a nervous venomous critter. The desert is alive, and it will defend itself. And we will help. 90 Miles From Needles brings you stories from far out in the American outback: a land unlike any other that is both intense and subtle, that has endured for eons in the harshest conditions imaginable but which could go away in a heartbeat if we act the wrong way. Science, politics, hiking and history, culture and creativity all go into defending the desert. Be forewarned: We are out to recruit you to the cause.

It's not a real desert hike unless you get thirsty. Unless your skin gets punctured by an innocent-looking plant. Unless you have a close encounter with a nervous venomous critter. The desert is alive, and it will defend itself. And we will help. 90 Miles From Needles brings you stories from far out in the American outback: a land unlike any other that is both intense and subtle, that has endured for eons in the harshest conditions imaginable but which could go away in a heartbeat if we act the wrong way. Science, politics, hiking and history, culture and creativity all go into defending the desert. Be forewarned: We are out to recruit you to the cause.

90 Miles from Needles Member feed

Join Chris Clarke and a variety of guests as they explore the challenges and opportunities of the American Southwest's fragile ecosystems. Engaging interviews with experts, activists, and advocates on conservation, land management, and environmental justice. Science and sentiment, politics and philosophy, hiking and history, culture and creativity all go into defending the desert. Be forewarned: We are out to recruit you to the cause.

Join Chris Clarke and a variety of guests as they explore the challenges and opportunities of the American Southwest's fragile ecosystems. Engaging interviews with experts, activists, and advocates on conservation, land management, and environmental justice. Science and sentiment, politics and philosophy, hiking and history, culture and creativity all go into defending the desert. Be forewarned: We are out to recruit you to the cause.

Vital info on protecting our irrepaceable deserts

90 Miles from Needles: the Desert Protection Podcast

90 Miles from Needles is a podcast about the environment, landscapes, and people of the American deserts—the Mojave, Sonoran, Chihuahuan, Great Basin and beyond. Host Chris Clarke explores desert ecology, wildlife, public lands, history, culture, road trips, conservation and the people working to protect these landscapes.

90 Miles from Needles is a podcast about the environment, landscapes, and people of the American deserts&mdash;the Mojave, Sonoran, Chihuahuan, Great Basin and beyond. Host Chris Clarke explores desert ecology, wildlife, public lands, history, culture, road trips, conservation and the people working to protect these landscapes.

Kyle Paoletta discusses American Oasis and the histories of Albuquerque, Phoenix, Tucson, Las Vegas and El Paso, arguing that understanding the desert Southwest requires understanding its cities.

S4E7: The Southwest's Hidden Urban Histories

Journalist Kimon de Greef joins Chris Clarke to discuss his new book, The Ego Trip: Psychedelic Toads, a Trail of Deaths, and the Guru Who Peddled Transcendence.

The Sonoran Desert toad (Incilius alvarius) spends most of the year underground, emerging to breed during summer rainstorms. It is also the only animal known to produce 5-MeO-DMT, an extraordinarily powerful psychedelic compound, in its defensive secretions.

That biological curiosity has made the toad the center of a global psychedelic industry. 

Chris and Kimon discuss how Sonoran toad secretions changed from a little-known psychedelic tool into an international spiritual commodity; how outsiders profit from romanticized ideas about Indigenous tradition; and what the resulting trade means for the toads, the people hired to collect them, and communities living amid poverty and cartel violence.

They also examine parallels with the commercial appropriation and poaching of white sage, and consider an uncomfortable contradiction: people seeking healing, transcendence and communion with nature may be supporting a supply chain built on wildlife exploitation, misinformation and harm.

Content Note

This episode contains discussion of drug use, addiction, death, animal mistreatment and abusive psychedelic practices. It is not intended as medical advice or encouragement to use 5-MeO-DMT or any other controlled substance.

About Kimon de Greef

Kimon de Greef is a South African journalist whose work has appeared in The New Yorker, The New York Times, The Guardian, National Geographic, Guernica and other publications. He has a master’s degree in conservation biology from the University of Cape Town and a master’s degree in journalism from New York University. Much of his reporting concerns wildlife trafficking, illicit economies and the complicated relationships between human desire and the natural world.
Kimon de Greef’s website
Kimon on Instagram
Buy The Ego Trip through Bookshop.org
Publisher’s page for The Ego Trip

In this episode
The remarkable monsoon-dependent life of the Sonoran Desert toad
What 5-MeO-DMT is, and why “toad licking” is both inaccurate and dangerous
How Octavio Rettig helped popularize toad-derived 5-MeO-DMT
Claims that toad smoking is an ancient Comcáac/Seri tradition
Psychedelic tourism, cultural appropriation and spiritual marketing
The economic realities behind supposedly “responsibly sourced” toad secretions
Toad collection, repeated “milking,” displacement and disease transmission
Why synthetic 5-MeO-DMT removes the need to exploit wild toads
Parallels between the toad trade and the international market for poached white sage
What scientists know and don't know about the toad’s population status
The difficulty of conducting conservation research in cartel-controlled areas
Why a potentially profound experience can still leave a trail of real-world harm

Selected timestamps
00:02:07 — How Kimon found the story
00:03:52 — Sonoran Desert toad natural history
00:06:20 — 5-MeO-DMT and the toad’s defensive secretions
00:08:47 — Octavio Rettig and the rise of “toad medicine”
00:11:34 — The Comcáac community and claims of recovered tradition
00:14:50 — Is there evidence of ancestral toad use?
00:20:15 — Psychedelic tourism and its consequences
00:22:30 — Seri ironwood carving and the creation of “tradition”
00:30:10 — The parallel with white sage
00:34:59 — Toad-derived versus synthetic 5-MeO-DMT
00:38:44 — Inside the toad-secretion supply chain
00:44:35 — What is happening to wild toad populations?
00:50:27 — Psychedelic experience, reporting and ethical distance

Further reading and resources
Kimon de Greef’s original New Yorker investigation, “The Pied Piper of Psychedelic Toads”
De Greef on the collection trade, “The Psychedelic Toad Milkers”
High Country News, “A Hallucinogenic Toad in Peril”
Sonoran Desert Toad Fund, supporting research and conservation throughout the species’ range
Tucson Herpetological Society, whose president Robert Villa has worked extensively on the toad’s conservation
Sonoran Desert toad species account from AmphibiaWeb
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Sonoran Desert toad species profile
PLOS One, “Diet and Chemical Defenses of the Sonoran Desert Toad”
California Native Plant Society, White Sage Protection

Journalist Kimon de Greef joins Chris Clarke to discuss his new book, The Ego Trip: Psychedelic Toads, a Trail of Deaths, and the Guru Who Peddled Transcendence.
The Sonoran Desert toad (Incilius alvarius) spends most of the year underground, emerging to breed during summer rainstorms. It is also the only animal known to produce 5-MeO-DMT, an extraordinarily powerful psychedelic compound, in its defensive secretions.
That biological curiosity has made the toad the center of a global psychedelic industry.&nbsp;
Chris and Kimon discuss how Sonoran toad secretions changed from a little-known psychedelic tool into an international spiritual commodity; how outsiders profit from romanticized ideas about Indigenous tradition; and what the resulting trade means for the toads, the people hired to collect them, and communities living amid poverty and cartel violence.
They also examine parallels with the commercial appropriation and poaching of white sage, and consider an uncomfortable contradiction: people seeking healing, transcendence and communion with nature may be supporting a supply chain built on wildlife exploitation, misinformation and harm.
Content Note
This episode contains discussion of drug use, addiction, death, animal mistreatment and abusive psychedelic practices. It is not intended as medical advice or encouragement to use 5-MeO-DMT or any other controlled substance.
About Kimon de Greef
Kimon de Greef is a South African journalist whose work has appeared in The New Yorker, The New York Times, The Guardian, National Geographic, Guernica and other publications. He has a master&rsquo;s degree in conservation biology from the University of Cape Town and a master&rsquo;s degree in journalism from New York University. Much of his reporting concerns wildlife trafficking, illicit economies and the complicated relationships between human desire and the natural world.
<ul data-start="2326" data-end="2762">
<li data-section-id="soruof" data-start="2326" data-end="2381"><a href="https://kimondegreef.com/?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="2328" data-end="2381">Kimon de Greef&rsquo;s website</a></li>
<li data-section-id="1fudnjv" data-start="2382" data-end="2447"><a data-start="2384" data-end="2447">Kimon on Instagram</a></li>
<li data-section-id="4aj7mp" data-start="2448" data-end="2641"><a href="https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-ego-trip-psychedelic-toads-a-trail-of-deaths-and-the-guru-who-peddled-transcendence-kimon-de-greef/9e7f0e20e04fc1b3?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="2450" data-end="2641">Buy The Ego Trip through Bookshop.org</a></li>
<li data-section-id="healt4" data-start="2642" data-end="2762"><a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/735472/the-ego-trip-by-kimon-de-greef/?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="2644" data-end="2762">Publisher&rsquo;s page for The Ego Trip</a></li>
</ul>
In this episode
<ul data-start="2785" data-end="3671">
<li data-section-id="62vyvx" data-start="2785" data-end="2851">The remarkable monsoon-dependent life of the Sonoran Desert toad</li>
<li data-section-id="15o0v0f" data-start="2852" data-end="2927">What 5-MeO-DMT is, and why &ldquo;toad licking&rdquo; is both inaccurate and dangerous</li>
<li data-section-id="197oq4a" data-start="2928" data-end="2989">How Octavio Rettig helped popularize toad-derived 5-MeO-DMT</li>
<li data-section-id="4o12vo" data-start="2990" data-end="3056">Claims that toad smoking is an ancient Comc&aacute;ac/Seri tradition</li>
<li data-section-id="1hqpym8" data-start="3057" data-end="3126">Psychedelic tourism, cultural appropriation and spiritual marketing</li>
<li data-section-id="xesl5j" data-start="3127" data-end="3207">The economic realities behind supposedly &ldquo;responsibly sourced&rdquo; toad secretions</li>
<li data-section-id="1mmzkj6" data-start="3208" data-end="3284">Toad collection, repeated &ldquo;milking,&rdquo; displacement and disease transmission</li>
<li data-section-id="1r56nxz" data-start="3285" data-end="3349">Why synthetic 5-MeO-DMT removes the need to exploit wild toads</li>
<li data-section-id="1h3d4pb" data-start="3350" data-end="3436">Parallels between the toad trade and the international market for poached white sage</li>
<li data-section-id="1jm2qp1" data-start="3437" data-end="3508">What scientists know and don't know about the toad&rsquo;s population status</li>
<li data-section-id="1h6mcfm" data-start="3509" data-end="3588">The difficulty of conducting conservation research in cartel-controlled areas</li>
<li data-section-id="3zxxi7" data-start="3589" data-end="3671">Why a potentially profound experience can still leave a trail of real-world harm</li>
</ul>
Selected timestamps
<ul data-start="3698" data-end="4498">
<li data-section-id="31lc23" data-start="3698" data-end="3742">00:02:07 &mdash; How Kimon found the story</li>
<li data-section-id="wiv44" data-start="3743" data-end="3797">00:03:52 &mdash; Sonoran Desert toad natural history</li>
<li data-section-id="on1t21" data-start="3798" data-end="3862">00:06:20 &mdash; 5-MeO-DMT and the toad&rsquo;s defensive secretions</li>
<li data-section-id="1bv25uy" data-start="3863" data-end="3928">00:08:47 &mdash; Octavio Rettig and the rise of &ldquo;toad medicine&rdquo;</li>
<li data-section-id="1hii61y" data-start="3929" data-end="4003">00:11:34 &mdash; The Comc&aacute;ac community and claims of recovered tradition</li>
<li data-section-id="1w5zzvl" data-start="4004" data-end="4063">00:14:50 &mdash; Is there evidence of ancestral toad use?</li>
<li data-section-id="1gy8sbt" data-start="4064" data-end="4123">00:20:15 &mdash; Psychedelic tourism and its consequences</li>
<li data-section-id="1pors1k" data-start="4124" data-end="4196">00:22:30 &mdash; Seri ironwood carving and the creation of &ldquo;tradition&rdquo;</li>
<li data-section-id="1r4a1q1" data-start="4197" data-end="4244">00:30:10 &mdash; The parallel with white sage</li>
<li data-section-id="1o08yfl" data-start="4245" data-end="4303">00:34:59 &mdash; Toad-derived versus synthetic 5-MeO-DMT</li>
<li data-section-id="qozby9" data-start="4304" data-end="4361">00:38:44 &mdash; Inside the toad-secretion supply chain</li>
<li data-section-id="1qy0b0c" data-start="4362" data-end="4424">00:44:35 &mdash; What is happening to wild toad populations?</li>
<li data-section-id="158lihx" data-start="4425" data-end="4498">00:50:27 &mdash; Psychedelic experience, reporting and ethical distance</li>
</ul>
Further reading and resources
<ul data-start="4535" data-end="5763">
<li data-section-id="dzrg8h" data-start="4535" data-end="4713">Kimon de Greef&rsquo;s original New Yorker investigation, <a href="https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/03/28/the-pied-piper-of-psychedelic-toads?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="4591" data-end="4713">&ldquo;The Pied Piper of Psychedelic Toads&rdquo;</a></li>
<li data-section-id="12ulgg1" data-start="4714" data-end="4848">De Greef on the collection trade, <a href="https://themicrodose.substack.com/p/the-psychedelic-toad-milkers?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="4750" data-end="4848">&ldquo;The Psychedelic Toad Milkers&rdquo;</a></li>
<li data-section-id="1hwo9a9" data-start="4849" data-end="4984">High Country News, <a href="https://www.hcn.org/issues/53-7/south-wildlife-a-hallucinogenic-toad-in-peril/?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="4870" data-end="4984">&ldquo;A Hallucinogenic Toad in Peril&rdquo;</a></li>
<li data-section-id="4aizyc" data-start="4985" data-end="5133"><a data-start="4987" data-end="5065">Sonoran Desert Toad Fund</a>, supporting research and conservation throughout the species&rsquo; range</li>
<li data-section-id="z05wsz" data-start="5134" data-end="5279"><a href="https://tucsonherpsociety.org/" data-start="5136" data-end="5199">Tucson Herpetological Society</a>, whose president Robert Villa has worked extensively on the toad&rsquo;s conservation</li>
<li data-section-id="58hpi4" data-start="5280" data-end="5372"><a href="https://amphibiaweb.org/species/97?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="5282" data-end="5372">Sonoran Desert toad species account from AmphibiaWeb</a></li>
<li data-section-id="tmn2z3" data-start="5373" data-end="5511">U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, <a href="https://www.fws.gov/species/sonoran-desert-toad-incilius-alvarius?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="5407" data-end="5511">Sonoran Desert toad species profile</a></li>
<li data-section-id="axio6m" data-start="5512" data-end="5658">PLOS One, <a href="https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0335661&amp;utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="5524" data-end="5658">&ldquo;Diet and Chemical Defenses of the Sonoran Desert Toad&rdquo;</a></li>
<li data-section-id="17q4j3k" data-start="5659" data-end="5763">California Native Plant Society, <a href="https://www.cnps.org/conservation/white-sage?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="5694" data-end="5763">White Sage Protection</a></li>
</ul>

Journalist Kimon de Greef follows the dirty business behind psychedelic “toad medicine”: wildlife exploitation, manufactured Indigenous tradition and a global market selling ego death as transcendence.

S5E27: Sonoran Toads and the Dirty Business of Ego Death 

Journalist Kimon de Greef joins Chris Clarke to discuss his new book, The Ego Trip: Psychedelic Toads, a Trail of Deaths, and the Guru Who Peddled Transcendence.

The Sonoran Desert toad (Incilius alvarius) spends most of the year underground, emerging with the summer monsoon to breed. It is also the only animal known to produce 5-MeO-DMT, an extraordinarily powerful psychedelic compound, in its defensive secretions.

That biological curiosity has made the toad the center of a global psychedelic industry. De Greef traces the rise of Octavio Rettig Hinojosa, a Mexican doctor who credited 5-MeO-DMT with helping him overcome addiction and went on to promote “toad medicine” around the world. Rettig claimed to have revived an ancient ceremonial practice among the Comcáac, or Seri, people of Sonora—a claim for which de Greef found little supporting historical or ethnographic evidence.

Chris and Kimon discuss how that story helped transform a little-known psychedelic practice into an international spiritual commodity; how outsiders profit from romanticized ideas about Indigenous tradition; and what the resulting trade means for the toads, the people hired to collect them, and communities living amid poverty and cartel violence.

They also examine parallels with the commercial appropriation and poaching of white sage, and consider an uncomfortable contradiction: people seeking healing, transcendence and communion with nature may be supporting a supply chain built on wildlife exploitation, misinformation and harm.

This episode contains discussion of drug use, addiction, death, animal mistreatment and abusive psychedelic practices. It is not intended as medical advice or encouragement to use 5-MeO-DMT or any other controlled substance.

About Kimon de Greef

Kimon de Greef is a South African journalist whose work has appeared in The New Yorker, The New York Times, The Guardian, National Geographic, Guernica and other publications. He has a master’s degree in conservation biology from the University of Cape Town and a master’s degree in journalism from New York University. Much of his reporting concerns wildlife trafficking, illicit economies and the complicated relationships between human desire and the natural world.
Kimon de Greef’s website
Kimon on Instagram
Buy The Ego Trip through Bookshop.org
Publisher’s page for The Ego Trip

In this episode
The remarkable monsoon-dependent life of the Sonoran Desert toad
What 5-MeO-DMT is—and why “toad licking” is both inaccurate and dangerous
How Octavio Rettig helped popularize toad-derived 5-MeO-DMT
Claims that toad smoking is an ancient Comcáac/Seri tradition
Psychedelic tourism, cultural appropriation and spiritual marketing
The economic realities behind supposedly “responsibly sourced” toad secretions
Toad collection, repeated “milking,” displacement and disease transmission
Why synthetic 5-MeO-DMT removes the need to exploit wild toads
Parallels between the toad trade and the international market for poached white sage
What scientists do—and do not—know about the toad’s population status
The difficulty of conducting conservation research in cartel-controlled areas
Why a potentially profound experience can still leave a trail of real-world harm

Selected timestamps
00:02:07 — How Kimon found the story
00:03:52 — Sonoran Desert toad natural history
00:06:20 — 5-MeO-DMT and the toad’s defensive secretions
00:08:47 — Octavio Rettig and the rise of “toad medicine”
00:11:34 — The Comcáac community and claims of recovered tradition
00:14:50 — Is there evidence of ancestral toad use?
00:20:15 — Psychedelic tourism and its consequences
00:22:30 — Seri ironwood carving and the creation of “tradition”
00:30:10 — The parallel with white sage
00:34:59 — Toad-derived versus synthetic 5-MeO-DMT
00:38:44 — Inside the toad-secretion supply chain
00:44:35 — What is happening to wild toad populations?
00:50:27 — Psychedelic experience, reporting and ethical distance

Further reading and resources
Kimon de Greef’s original New Yorker investigation, “The Pied Piper of Psychedelic Toads”
De Greef on the collection trade, “The Psychedelic Toad Milkers”
High Country News, “A Hallucinogenic Toad in Peril”
Sonoran Desert Toad Fund, supporting research and conservation throughout the species’ range
Tucson Herpetological Society, whose president Robert Villa has worked extensively on the toad’s conservation
Sonoran Desert toad species account from AmphibiaWeb
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Sonoran Desert toad species profile
PLOS One, “Diet and Chemical Defenses of the Sonoran Desert Toad”
California Native Plant Society, White Sage Protection

Journalist Kimon de Greef joins Chris Clarke to discuss his new book, The Ego Trip: Psychedelic Toads, a Trail of Deaths, and the Guru Who Peddled Transcendence.
The Sonoran Desert toad (Incilius alvarius) spends most of the year underground, emerging with the summer monsoon to breed. It is also the only animal known to produce 5-MeO-DMT, an extraordinarily powerful psychedelic compound, in its defensive secretions.
That biological curiosity has made the toad the center of a global psychedelic industry. De Greef traces the rise of Octavio Rettig Hinojosa, a Mexican doctor who credited 5-MeO-DMT with helping him overcome addiction and went on to promote &ldquo;toad medicine&rdquo; around the world. Rettig claimed to have revived an ancient ceremonial practice among the Comc&aacute;ac, or Seri, people of Sonora&mdash;a claim for which de Greef found little supporting historical or ethnographic evidence.
Chris and Kimon discuss how that story helped transform a little-known psychedelic practice into an international spiritual commodity; how outsiders profit from romanticized ideas about Indigenous tradition; and what the resulting trade means for the toads, the people hired to collect them, and communities living amid poverty and cartel violence.
They also examine parallels with the commercial appropriation and poaching of white sage, and consider an uncomfortable contradiction: people seeking healing, transcendence and communion with nature may be supporting a supply chain built on wildlife exploitation, misinformation and harm.
This episode contains discussion of drug use, addiction, death, animal mistreatment and abusive psychedelic practices. It is not intended as medical advice or encouragement to use 5-MeO-DMT or any other controlled substance.
About Kimon de Greef
Kimon de Greef is a South African journalist whose work has appeared in The New Yorker, The New York Times, The Guardian, National Geographic, Guernica and other publications. He has a master&rsquo;s degree in conservation biology from the University of Cape Town and a master&rsquo;s degree in journalism from New York University. Much of his reporting concerns wildlife trafficking, illicit economies and the complicated relationships between human desire and the natural world.
<ul data-start="2326" data-end="2762">
<li data-section-id="soruof" data-start="2326" data-end="2381"><a href="https://kimondegreef.com/?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="2328" data-end="2381">Kimon de Greef&rsquo;s website</a></li>
<li data-section-id="1fudnjv" data-start="2382" data-end="2447"><a data-start="2384" data-end="2447">Kimon on Instagram</a></li>
<li data-section-id="4aj7mp" data-start="2448" data-end="2641"><a href="https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-ego-trip-psychedelic-toads-a-trail-of-deaths-and-the-guru-who-peddled-transcendence-kimon-de-greef/9e7f0e20e04fc1b3?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="2450" data-end="2641">Buy The Ego Trip through Bookshop.org</a></li>
<li data-section-id="healt4" data-start="2642" data-end="2762"><a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/735472/the-ego-trip-by-kimon-de-greef/?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="2644" data-end="2762">Publisher&rsquo;s page for The Ego Trip</a></li>
</ul>
In this episode
<ul data-start="2785" data-end="3671">
<li data-section-id="62vyvx" data-start="2785" data-end="2851">The remarkable monsoon-dependent life of the Sonoran Desert toad</li>
<li data-section-id="15o0v0f" data-start="2852" data-end="2927">What 5-MeO-DMT is&mdash;and why &ldquo;toad licking&rdquo; is both inaccurate and dangerous</li>
<li data-section-id="197oq4a" data-start="2928" data-end="2989">How Octavio Rettig helped popularize toad-derived 5-MeO-DMT</li>
<li data-section-id="4o12vo" data-start="2990" data-end="3056">Claims that toad smoking is an ancient Comc&aacute;ac/Seri tradition</li>
<li data-section-id="1hqpym8" data-start="3057" data-end="3126">Psychedelic tourism, cultural appropriation and spiritual marketing</li>
<li data-section-id="xesl5j" data-start="3127" data-end="3207">The economic realities behind supposedly &ldquo;responsibly sourced&rdquo; toad secretions</li>
<li data-section-id="1mmzkj6" data-start="3208" data-end="3284">Toad collection, repeated &ldquo;milking,&rdquo; displacement and disease transmission</li>
<li data-section-id="1r56nxz" data-start="3285" data-end="3349">Why synthetic 5-MeO-DMT removes the need to exploit wild toads</li>
<li data-section-id="1h3d4pb" data-start="3350" data-end="3436">Parallels between the toad trade and the international market for poached white sage</li>
<li data-section-id="1jm2qp1" data-start="3437" data-end="3508">What scientists do&mdash;and do not&mdash;know about the toad&rsquo;s population status</li>
<li data-section-id="1h6mcfm" data-start="3509" data-end="3588">The difficulty of conducting conservation research in cartel-controlled areas</li>
<li data-section-id="3zxxi7" data-start="3589" data-end="3671">Why a potentially profound experience can still leave a trail of real-world harm</li>
</ul>
Selected timestamps
<ul data-start="3698" data-end="4498">
<li data-section-id="31lc23" data-start="3698" data-end="3742">00:02:07 &mdash; How Kimon found the story</li>
<li data-section-id="wiv44" data-start="3743" data-end="3797">00:03:52 &mdash; Sonoran Desert toad natural history</li>
<li data-section-id="on1t21" data-start="3798" data-end="3862">00:06:20 &mdash; 5-MeO-DMT and the toad&rsquo;s defensive secretions</li>
<li data-section-id="1bv25uy" data-start="3863" data-end="3928">00:08:47 &mdash; Octavio Rettig and the rise of &ldquo;toad medicine&rdquo;</li>
<li data-section-id="1hii61y" data-start="3929" data-end="4003">00:11:34 &mdash; The Comc&aacute;ac community and claims of recovered tradition</li>
<li data-section-id="1w5zzvl" data-start="4004" data-end="4063">00:14:50 &mdash; Is there evidence of ancestral toad use?</li>
<li data-section-id="1gy8sbt" data-start="4064" data-end="4123">00:20:15 &mdash; Psychedelic tourism and its consequences</li>
<li data-section-id="1pors1k" data-start="4124" data-end="4196">00:22:30 &mdash; Seri ironwood carving and the creation of &ldquo;tradition&rdquo;</li>
<li data-section-id="1r4a1q1" data-start="4197" data-end="4244">00:30:10 &mdash; The parallel with white sage</li>
<li data-section-id="1o08yfl" data-start="4245" data-end="4303">00:34:59 &mdash; Toad-derived versus synthetic 5-MeO-DMT</li>
<li data-section-id="qozby9" data-start="4304" data-end="4361">00:38:44 &mdash; Inside the toad-secretion supply chain</li>
<li data-section-id="1qy0b0c" data-start="4362" data-end="4424">00:44:35 &mdash; What is happening to wild toad populations?</li>
<li data-section-id="158lihx" data-start="4425" data-end="4498">00:50:27 &mdash; Psychedelic experience, reporting and ethical distance</li>
</ul>
Further reading and resources
<ul data-start="4535" data-end="5763">
<li data-section-id="dzrg8h" data-start="4535" data-end="4713">Kimon de Greef&rsquo;s original New Yorker investigation, <a href="https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/03/28/the-pied-piper-of-psychedelic-toads?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="4591" data-end="4713">&ldquo;The Pied Piper of Psychedelic Toads&rdquo;</a></li>
<li data-section-id="12ulgg1" data-start="4714" data-end="4848">De Greef on the collection trade, <a href="https://themicrodose.substack.com/p/the-psychedelic-toad-milkers?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="4750" data-end="4848">&ldquo;The Psychedelic Toad Milkers&rdquo;</a></li>
<li data-section-id="1hwo9a9" data-start="4849" data-end="4984">High Country News, <a href="https://www.hcn.org/issues/53-7/south-wildlife-a-hallucinogenic-toad-in-peril/?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="4870" data-end="4984">&ldquo;A Hallucinogenic Toad in Peril&rdquo;</a></li>
<li data-section-id="4aizyc" data-start="4985" data-end="5133"><a data-start="4987" data-end="5065">Sonoran Desert Toad Fund</a>, supporting research and conservation throughout the species&rsquo; range</li>
<li data-section-id="z05wsz" data-start="5134" data-end="5279"><a href="https://tucsonherpsociety.org/" data-start="5136" data-end="5199">Tucson Herpetological Society</a>, whose president Robert Villa has worked extensively on the toad&rsquo;s conservation</li>
<li data-section-id="58hpi4" data-start="5280" data-end="5372"><a href="https://amphibiaweb.org/species/97?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="5282" data-end="5372">Sonoran Desert toad species account from AmphibiaWeb</a></li>
<li data-section-id="tmn2z3" data-start="5373" data-end="5511">U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, <a href="https://www.fws.gov/species/sonoran-desert-toad-incilius-alvarius?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="5407" data-end="5511">Sonoran Desert toad species profile</a></li>
<li data-section-id="axio6m" data-start="5512" data-end="5658">PLOS One, <a href="https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0335661&amp;utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="5524" data-end="5658">&ldquo;Diet and Chemical Defenses of the Sonoran Desert Toad&rdquo;</a></li>
<li data-section-id="17q4j3k" data-start="5659" data-end="5763">California Native Plant Society, <a href="https://www.cnps.org/conservation/white-sage?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="5694" data-end="5763">White Sage Protection</a></li>
</ul>

Desert toads and Indigenous communities. His new book, The Ego Trip, follows a psychedelic movement built on wildlife exploitation, spiritual longing and a purported ancient tradition for which the evidence is remarkably thin.

S5E27: Sonoran Toads and the Dirty Business of Ego Death [subscribers cut]

We think of range maps as static representations of where plants and animals belong. It doesn't often occur to us that maps are just snapshots of a constantly changing world. In the Mojave Desert, two sister species of desert ground squirrel coexist nearly side by side. A field guide's range maps will tell you where those species live right now. But those maps also convey hints out of Deep Time, and those hints can explain not only why the squirrels live where they do, but also how the two species evolved in their own directions.

Host Chris Clarke shares the story of those sister species: the Mohave and Round-tailed ground squirrels. One is doing well and is abundant. The other has been designated as a threatened species. Each of them is a library of history... if we know how to read them.

Chris also announces the launch of our Fellowship for Desert Reporting: prospective Fellows can start by filling out the application form at https://thedamn.org/fellowship-application.

Resources 

Mohave ground squirrels
California Department of Fish and Wildlife: Mohave Ground Squirrel
Species overview, conservation status, recordings and access to the state conservation strategy.
CDFW Mohave Ground Squirrel
Philip Leitner, “Current Status of the Mohave Ground Squirrel: An Update Covering the Period 2013–2020”
Reviews the animal’s current distribution, apparent losses from portions of its historical range and continuing conservation concerns.
Status update PDF
Mohave Ground Squirrel Technical Advisory Group
CDFW’s archive of technical documents and meeting materials from researchers, agencies and other specialists.
Technical Advisory Group
Mohave Ground Squirrel Conservation Council: Publications
A bibliography covering the species’ taxonomy, ecology, genetics, distribution and conservation.
Publications list

Separation, contact and hybridization
Kayce C. Bell and Marjorie D. Matocq, “Regional Genetic Subdivision in the Mohave Ground Squirrel: Evidence of Historic Isolation and Ongoing Connectivity in a Mojave Desert Endemic”
Animal Conservation 14 (2011): 371–381. Examines genetic structure and historical isolation within Mohave ground squirrel populations.
Article and abstract
Philip Leitner, Jennifer S. Rippert and Marjorie D. Matocq, “Genetic Structure Across a Contact Zone Between Xerospermophilus Ground Squirrels in Southern California”
Western North American Naturalist 77 (2017): 152–161. Documents both species and genetically admixed animals near Hinkley. It also reports expansion across the former barrier of no more than approximately 30 kilometers—an average of no more than five meters per year.
Full article
“Distribution and Genetic Status of Xerospermophilus Ground Squirrels in the Barstow Region”
Includes useful maps of trapping records and genetically identified Mohave, round-tailed and hybrid or backcrossed animals around Barstow and Hinkley.
CDFW-hosted report

Mojave River and vanished lakes
Marith C. Reheis et al., “Geomorphic History of Lake Manix, Mojave Desert, California: Evolution of a Complex Terminal Lake Basin”
Geomorphology 392 (2021). A detailed modern synthesis of the lake basin’s development, changing river routes, tectonics and climate history.
USGS publication page
USGS: Surficial Geology and Stratigraphy of Pleistocene Lake Manix
Detailed geologic mapping of Lake Manix, its component basins and the deposits exposed by the Mojave River and Afton Canyon.
USGS Lake Manix map and report
Marith Reheis and Joanna Redwine, “Lake Manix Shorelines and Afton Canyon Terraces: Implications for Incision of Afton Canyon”
Discusses the overflow of Lake Manix and relatively rapid initial incision of Afton Canyon at approximately 25,000 calibrated years ago.
USGS publication record
USGS: Mojave River and Associated Lakes
An accessible introduction to the Mojave River, Lake Manix, Lake Mojave and the modern Soda and Silver Lake playas.
Mojave River and Associated Lakes

Range maps and Joshua trees
USGS: High-resolution distribution maps for western and eastern Joshua trees
Describes empirical and modeled range maps for Yucca brevifolia and Yucca jaegeriana across four states.
USGS Joshua tree distribution study
Smith et al., “Genome-Scale Data Resolves the Timing of Divergence in Joshua Trees”
American Journal of Botany 108 (2021). Estimates that the two Joshua tree species diverged approximately 100,000–200,000 years ago.
Journal article

We think of range maps as static representations of where plants and animals belong. It doesn't often occur to us that maps are just snapshots of a constantly changing world. In the Mojave Desert, two sister species of desert ground squirrel coexist nearly side by side. A field guide's range maps will tell you where those species live right now. But those maps also convey hints out of Deep Time, and those hints can explain not only why the squirrels live where they do, but also how the two species evolved in their own directions.
Host Chris Clarke shares the story of those sister species: the Mohave and Round-tailed ground squirrels. One is doing well and is abundant. The other has been designated as a threatened species. Each of them is a library of history... if we know how to read them.
Chris also announces the launch of our Fellowship for Desert Reporting: prospective Fellows can start by filling out the application form at <a href="https://thedamn.org/fellowship-application">https://thedamn.org/fellowship-application</a>.
Resources&nbsp;
Mohave ground squirrels
<ul data-start="2041" data-end="3187">
<li data-section-id="14s7lq8" data-start="2041" data-end="2317">California Department of Fish and Wildlife: Mohave Ground Squirrel Species overview, conservation status, recordings and access to the state conservation strategy. <a href="https://wildlife.ca.gov/Conservation/Mammals/Mohave-Ground-Squirrel?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="2219" data-end="2317">CDFW Mohave Ground Squirrel</a></li>
<li data-section-id="1705d8m" data-start="2319" data-end="2658">Philip Leitner, &ldquo;Current Status of the Mohave Ground Squirrel: An Update Covering the Period 2013&ndash;2020&rdquo; Reviews the animal&rsquo;s current distribution, apparent losses from portions of its historical range and continuing conservation concerns. <a href="https://nrm.dfg.ca.gov/FileHandler.ashx?DocumentID=193411&amp;inline&amp;utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="2572" data-end="2658">Status update PDF</a></li>
<li data-section-id="11ou8n4" data-start="2660" data-end="2953">Mohave Ground Squirrel Technical Advisory Group CDFW&rsquo;s archive of technical documents and meeting materials from researchers, agencies and other specialists. <a href="https://wildlife.ca.gov/Conservation/Mammals/Mohave-Ground-Squirrel/TAG/ArticlePage/1/tag/tag?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="2832" data-end="2953">Technical Advisory Group</a></li>
<li data-section-id="1pamcgl" data-start="2955" data-end="3187">Mohave Ground Squirrel Conservation Council: Publications A bibliography covering the species&rsquo; taxonomy, ecology, genetics, distribution and conservation. <a href="https://mgsconservation.org/publications-1?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="3124" data-end="3187">Publications list</a></li>
</ul>
Separation, contact and hybridization
<ul data-start="3232" data-end="4536">
<li data-section-id="1yalien" data-start="3232" data-end="3678">Kayce C. Bell and Marjorie D. Matocq, &ldquo;Regional Genetic Subdivision in the Mohave Ground Squirrel: Evidence of Historic Isolation and Ongoing Connectivity in a Mojave Desert Endemic&rdquo; Animal Conservation 14 (2011): 371&ndash;381. Examines genetic structure and historical isolation within Mohave ground squirrel populations. <a href="https://zslpublications.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1469-1795.2011.00435.x?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="3566" data-end="3678">Article and abstract</a></li>
<li data-section-id="16mliq2" data-start="3680" data-end="4197">Philip Leitner, Jennifer S. Rippert and Marjorie D. Matocq, &ldquo;Genetic Structure Across a Contact Zone Between Xerospermophilus Ground Squirrels in Southern California&rdquo; Western North American Naturalist 77 (2017): 152&ndash;161. Documents both species and genetically admixed animals near Hinkley. It also reports expansion across the former barrier of no more than approximately 30 kilometers&mdash;an average of no more than five meters per year. <a href="https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/wnan/vol77/iss2/2/?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="4131" data-end="4197">Full article</a></li>
<li data-section-id="9w4paw" data-start="4199" data-end="4536">&ldquo;Distribution and Genetic Status of Xerospermophilus Ground Squirrels in the Barstow Region&rdquo; Includes useful maps of trapping records and genetically identified Mohave, round-tailed and hybrid or backcrossed animals around Barstow and Hinkley. <a href="https://nrm.dfg.ca.gov/FileHandler.ashx?DocumentID=140013&amp;utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="4457" data-end="4536">CDFW-hosted report</a></li>
</ul>
Mojave River and vanished lakes
<ul data-start="4575" data-end="5955">
<li data-section-id="1i9yjlj" data-start="4575" data-end="5005">Marith C. Reheis et al., &ldquo;Geomorphic History of Lake Manix, Mojave Desert, California: Evolution of a Complex Terminal Lake Basin&rdquo; Geomorphology 392 (2021). A detailed modern synthesis of the lake basin&rsquo;s development, changing river routes, tectonics and climate history. <a href="https://www.usgs.gov/publications/geomorphic-history-lake-manix-mojave-desert-california-evolution-a-complex-terminal?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="4863" data-end="5005">USGS publication page</a></li>
<li data-section-id="1w0fqs6" data-start="5007" data-end="5278">USGS: Surficial Geology and Stratigraphy of Pleistocene Lake Manix Detailed geologic mapping of Lake Manix, its component basins and the deposits exposed by the Mojave River and Afton Canyon. <a href="https://pubs.usgs.gov/sim/3312/?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="5213" data-end="5278">USGS Lake Manix map and report</a></li>
<li data-section-id="enq7ml" data-start="5280" data-end="5701">Marith Reheis and Joanna Redwine, &ldquo;Lake Manix Shorelines and Afton Canyon Terraces: Implications for Incision of Afton Canyon&rdquo; Discusses the overflow of Lake Manix and relatively rapid initial incision of Afton Canyon at approximately 25,000 calibrated years ago. <a href="https://www.usgs.gov/publications/lake-manix-shorelines-and-afton-canyon-terraces-implications-incision-afton-canyon?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="5558" data-end="5701">USGS publication record</a></li>
<li data-section-id="uxxn33" data-start="5703" data-end="5955">USGS: Mojave River and Associated Lakes An accessible introduction to the Mojave River, Lake Manix, Lake Mojave and the modern Soda and Silver Lake playas. <a href="https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2004/1007/river.html?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="5873" data-end="5955">Mojave River and Associated Lakes</a></li>
</ul>
Range maps and Joshua trees
<ul data-start="5990" data-end="6662" data-is-only-node="" data-is-last-node="">
<li data-section-id="ptczdb" data-start="5990" data-end="6348">USGS: High-resolution distribution maps for western and eastern Joshua trees Describes empirical and modeled range maps for Yucca brevifolia and Yucca jaegeriana across four states. <a href="https://www.usgs.gov/publications/unprecedented-distribution-data-joshua-trees-yucca-brevifolia-and-y-jaegeriana-reveal?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="6190" data-end="6348">USGS Joshua tree distribution study</a></li>
<li data-section-id="lgp9az" data-start="6350" data-end="6662" data-is-last-node="">Smith et al., &ldquo;Genome-Scale Data Resolves the Timing of Divergence in Joshua Trees&rdquo; American Journal of Botany 108 (2021). Estimates that the two Joshua tree species diverged approximately 100,000&ndash;200,000 years ago. <a href="https://bsapubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajb2.1633?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="6582" data-end="6662" data-is-last-node="">Journal article</a></li>
</ul>

The boundary between two ground-squirrel species preserves the memory of a wetter Mojave,and a barrier that disappeared thousands of years ago.

S4E7: The Southwest's Hidden Urban Histories

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90 Miles from Needles: the Desert Protection Podcast

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