Under Chevron, agencies interpreted often vague language in laws passed by Congress. Supreme Court’s move now reallocates these decisions to the courts. We explain what this means.

Join Chris Clarke and a variety of guests as they explore the challenges and opportunities of the American Southwest's fragile ecosystems. Engaging interviews with experts, activists, and advocates on conservation, land management, and environmental justice. Science and sentiment, politics and philosophy, hiking and history, culture and creativity all go into defending the desert. Be forewarned: We are out to recruit you to the cause.

Join Chris Clarke and a variety of guests as they explore the challenges and opportunities of the American Southwest's fragile ecosystems. Engaging interviews with experts, activists, and advocates on conservation, land management, and environmental justice. Science and sentiment, politics and philosophy, hiking and history, culture and creativity all go into defending the desert. Be forewarned: We are out to recruit you to the cause.

Vital info on protecting our irrepaceable deserts

90 Miles from Needles: the Desert Protection Podcast

It's not a real desert hike unless you get thirsty. Unless your skin gets punctured by an innocent-looking plant. Unless you have a close encounter with a nervous venomous critter. The desert is alive, and it will defend itself. And we will help. 90 Miles From Needles brings you stories from far out in the American outback: a land unlike any other that is both intense and subtle, that has endured for eons in the harshest conditions imaginable but which could go away in a heartbeat if we act the wrong way. Science, politics, hiking and history, culture and creativity all go into defending the desert. Be forewarned: We are out to recruit you to the cause.

It's not a real desert hike unless you get thirsty. Unless your skin gets punctured by an innocent-looking plant. Unless you have a close encounter with a nervous venomous critter. The desert is alive, and it will defend itself. And we will help. 90 Miles From Needles brings you stories from far out in the American outback: a land unlike any other that is both intense and subtle, that has endured for eons in the harshest conditions imaginable but which could go away in a heartbeat if we act the wrong way. Science, politics, hiking and history, culture and creativity all go into defending the desert. Be forewarned: We are out to recruit you to the cause.

90 Miles from Needles Member feed

90 Miles from Needles is a podcast about the environment, landscapes, and people of the American deserts—the Mojave, Sonoran, Chihuahuan, Great Basin and beyond. Host Chris Clarke explores desert ecology, wildlife, public lands, history, culture, road trips, conservation and the people working to protect these landscapes.

90 Miles from Needles is a podcast about the environment, landscapes, and people of the American deserts&mdash;the Mojave, Sonoran, Chihuahuan, Great Basin and beyond. Host Chris Clarke explores desert ecology, wildlife, public lands, history, culture, road trips, conservation and the people working to protect these landscapes.

For decades, the Chevron doctrine gave federal agencies substantial latitude to interpret ambiguous laws passed by Congress. The Supreme Court's decision to overturn that doctrine shifts more authority over those interpretations to federal judges. Chris Clarke explains what Chevron deference was, why its demise matters, and how the change could affect environmental regulation and the federal agencies responsible for protecting wildlife, clean water, public lands, and other natural resources.

S3E21: The War on Facts: Environmental Protection after Chevron

Episode thumbnail photo by Bo Insogna.



The deadly August 29 flood in Grand Canyon National Park received national attention, but it was not an isolated event. Flooding struck communities, parks and backcountry destinations across Utah, Arizona and New Mexico throughout the summer.

Chris Clarke presents four things we should understand about desert flash floods: they are regional rather than isolated disasters; they are fundamental forces that build desert landscapes; blaming victims can undermine safety; and better preparation, warnings, closures and land-use decisions can reduce the danger. The episode also explains why violent monsoon floods do little to relieve the Colorado River drought.

Key takeaways
The Grand Canyon flood was part of a much wider period of destructive Southwest monsoon flooding.
Flash floods are not aberrations in deserts. They carve canyons, move boulders, reroute washes and build alluvial fans.
Experience and preparation reduce risk, but they cannot eliminate it.
Blaming victims encourages people to treat safety warnings as advice intended for someone less competent.
Closures, permits, upstream monitoring, better flood maps and responsible land-use decisions can save lives.
Intense local flooding does not necessarily produce enough water to replenish major reservoirs or end a regional drought.

Notable quote
“The sustained river incision and the geological uplift are the canvas. The flash floods are the brushstrokes.”
Griffiths, Peter G., Robert H. Webb, and Theodore S. Melis. 2004. “Frequency and Initiation of Debris Flows in Grand Canyon, Arizona.” Journal of Geophysical Research: Earth Surface 109(F4).
DOI: 10.1029/2003JF000077
Melis, Theodore S., Robert H. Webb, Peter G. Griffiths, and T.J. Wise. 1994. Magnitude and Frequency Data for Historic Debris Flows in Grand Canyon National Park and Vicinity, Arizona. USGS Water-Resources Investigations Report 94-4214.
DOI: 10.3133/wri944214
Cannon, Susan H., et al. 2008. “Storm Rainfall Conditions for Floods and Debris Flows from Recently Burned Areas in Southwestern Colorado and Southern California.” Geomorphology 96(3–4): 250–269.
DOI: 10.1016/j.geomorph.2007.03.019
Goodrich, David C., et al. 2018. “Southwestern Intermittent and Ephemeral Stream Connectivity.” Journal of the American Water Resources Association 54(2): 400–422.
DOI: 10.1111/1752-1688.12636
Swain, Daniel L., et al. 2020. “Increased Flood Exposure Due to Climate Change and Population Growth in the United States.” Earth’s Future 8.
DOI: 10.1029/2020EF001778

 

Episode thumbnail photo by Bo Insogna. 
The deadly August 29 flood in Grand Canyon National Park received national attention, but it was not an isolated event. Flooding struck communities, parks and backcountry destinations across Utah, Arizona and New Mexico throughout the summer.
Chris Clarke presents four things we should understand about desert flash floods: they are regional rather than isolated disasters; they are fundamental forces that build desert landscapes; blaming victims can undermine safety; and better preparation, warnings, closures and land-use decisions can reduce the danger. The episode also explains why violent monsoon floods do little to relieve the Colorado River drought.
Key takeaways
<ul data-spread="false">
<li>The Grand Canyon flood was part of a much wider period of destructive Southwest monsoon flooding.</li>
<li>Flash floods are not aberrations in deserts. They carve canyons, move boulders, reroute washes and build alluvial fans.</li>
<li>Experience and preparation reduce risk, but they cannot eliminate it.</li>
<li>Blaming victims encourages people to treat safety warnings as advice intended for someone less competent.</li>
<li>Closures, permits, upstream monitoring, better flood maps and responsible land-use decisions can save lives.</li>
<li>Intense local flooding does not necessarily produce enough water to replenish major reservoirs or end a regional drought.</li>
</ul>
Notable quote &ldquo;The sustained river incision and the geological uplift are the canvas. The flash floods are the brushstrokes.&rdquo;
<ul>
<li>Griffiths, Peter G., Robert H. Webb, and Theodore S. Melis. 2004. &ldquo;Frequency and Initiation of Debris Flows in Grand Canyon, Arizona.&rdquo; Journal of Geophysical Research: Earth Surface 109(F4). <a href="https://doi.org/10.1029/2003JF000077?utm_source=chatgpt.com">DOI: 10.1029/2003JF000077</a></li>
<li>Melis, Theodore S., Robert H. Webb, Peter G. Griffiths, and T.J. Wise. 1994. Magnitude and Frequency Data for Historic Debris Flows in Grand Canyon National Park and Vicinity, Arizona. USGS Water-Resources Investigations Report 94-4214. DOI: <a href="https://pubs.usgs.gov/publication/wri944214">10.3133/wri944214</a></li>
<li>Cannon, Susan H., et al. 2008. &ldquo;Storm Rainfall Conditions for Floods and Debris Flows from Recently Burned Areas in Southwestern Colorado and Southern California.&rdquo; Geomorphology 96(3&ndash;4): 250&ndash;269. DOI: <a href="https://www.usgs.gov/publications/storm-rainfall-conditions-floods-and-debris-flows-recently-burned-areas-southwestern">10.1016/j.geomorph.2007.03.019</a></li>
<li>Goodrich, David C., et al. 2018. &ldquo;Southwestern Intermittent and Ephemeral Stream Connectivity.&rdquo; Journal of the American Water Resources Association 54(2): 400&ndash;422. DOI: <a href="https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1752-1688.12636">10.1111/1752-1688.12636</a></li>
<li>Swain, Daniel L., et al. 2020. &ldquo;Increased Flood Exposure Due to Climate Change and Population Growth in the United States.&rdquo; Earth&rsquo;s Future 8. <a href="https://doi.org/10.1029/2020EF001778?utm_source=chatgpt.com">DOI: 10.1029/2020EF001778</a></li>
</ul>
&nbsp;

This week: four things to understand about desert flash floods, why blaming victims makes us less safe, and what both travelers and institutions can do to reduce the danger.

S5E28: 4 Things You Need to Know about Desert Flooding [Subscribers' Cut]

S5E28: 4 Things You Need to Know about Desert Flooding

Journalist Kimon de Greef joins Chris Clarke to discuss his new book, The Ego Trip: Psychedelic Toads, a Trail of Deaths, and the Guru Who Peddled Transcendence.

The Sonoran Desert toad (Incilius alvarius) spends most of the year underground, emerging to breed during summer rainstorms. It is also the only animal known to produce 5-MeO-DMT, an extraordinarily powerful psychedelic compound, in its defensive secretions.

That biological curiosity has made the toad the center of a global psychedelic industry. 

Chris and Kimon discuss how Sonoran toad secretions changed from a little-known psychedelic tool into an international spiritual commodity; how outsiders profit from romanticized ideas about Indigenous tradition; and what the resulting trade means for the toads, the people hired to collect them, and communities living amid poverty and cartel violence.

They also examine parallels with the commercial appropriation and poaching of white sage, and consider an uncomfortable contradiction: people seeking healing, transcendence and communion with nature may be supporting a supply chain built on wildlife exploitation, misinformation and harm.

Content Note

This episode contains discussion of drug use, addiction, death, animal mistreatment and abusive psychedelic practices. It is not intended as medical advice or encouragement to use 5-MeO-DMT or any other controlled substance.

About Kimon de Greef

Kimon de Greef is a South African journalist whose work has appeared in The New Yorker, The New York Times, The Guardian, National Geographic, Guernica and other publications. He has a master’s degree in conservation biology from the University of Cape Town and a master’s degree in journalism from New York University. Much of his reporting concerns wildlife trafficking, illicit economies and the complicated relationships between human desire and the natural world.
Kimon de Greef’s website
Kimon on Instagram
Buy The Ego Trip through Bookshop.org
Publisher’s page for The Ego Trip

In this episode
The remarkable monsoon-dependent life of the Sonoran Desert toad
What 5-MeO-DMT is, and why “toad licking” is both inaccurate and dangerous
How Octavio Rettig helped popularize toad-derived 5-MeO-DMT
Claims that toad smoking is an ancient Comcáac/Seri tradition
Psychedelic tourism, cultural appropriation and spiritual marketing
The economic realities behind supposedly “responsibly sourced” toad secretions
Toad collection, repeated “milking,” displacement and disease transmission
Why synthetic 5-MeO-DMT removes the need to exploit wild toads
Parallels between the toad trade and the international market for poached white sage
What scientists know and don't know about the toad’s population status
The difficulty of conducting conservation research in cartel-controlled areas
Why a potentially profound experience can still leave a trail of real-world harm

Selected timestamps
00:02:07 — How Kimon found the story
00:03:52 — Sonoran Desert toad natural history
00:06:20 — 5-MeO-DMT and the toad’s defensive secretions
00:08:47 — Octavio Rettig and the rise of “toad medicine”
00:11:34 — The Comcáac community and claims of recovered tradition
00:14:50 — Is there evidence of ancestral toad use?
00:20:15 — Psychedelic tourism and its consequences
00:22:30 — Seri ironwood carving and the creation of “tradition”
00:30:10 — The parallel with white sage
00:34:59 — Toad-derived versus synthetic 5-MeO-DMT
00:38:44 — Inside the toad-secretion supply chain
00:44:35 — What is happening to wild toad populations?
00:50:27 — Psychedelic experience, reporting and ethical distance

Further reading and resources
Kimon de Greef’s original New Yorker investigation, “The Pied Piper of Psychedelic Toads”
De Greef on the collection trade, “The Psychedelic Toad Milkers”
High Country News, “A Hallucinogenic Toad in Peril”
Sonoran Desert Toad Fund, supporting research and conservation throughout the species’ range
Tucson Herpetological Society, whose president Robert Villa has worked extensively on the toad’s conservation
Sonoran Desert toad species account from AmphibiaWeb
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Sonoran Desert toad species profile
PLOS One, “Diet and Chemical Defenses of the Sonoran Desert Toad”
California Native Plant Society, White Sage Protection

Journalist Kimon de Greef joins Chris Clarke to discuss his new book, The Ego Trip: Psychedelic Toads, a Trail of Deaths, and the Guru Who Peddled Transcendence.
The Sonoran Desert toad (Incilius alvarius) spends most of the year underground, emerging to breed during summer rainstorms. It is also the only animal known to produce 5-MeO-DMT, an extraordinarily powerful psychedelic compound, in its defensive secretions.
That biological curiosity has made the toad the center of a global psychedelic industry.&nbsp;
Chris and Kimon discuss how Sonoran toad secretions changed from a little-known psychedelic tool into an international spiritual commodity; how outsiders profit from romanticized ideas about Indigenous tradition; and what the resulting trade means for the toads, the people hired to collect them, and communities living amid poverty and cartel violence.
They also examine parallels with the commercial appropriation and poaching of white sage, and consider an uncomfortable contradiction: people seeking healing, transcendence and communion with nature may be supporting a supply chain built on wildlife exploitation, misinformation and harm.
Content Note
This episode contains discussion of drug use, addiction, death, animal mistreatment and abusive psychedelic practices. It is not intended as medical advice or encouragement to use 5-MeO-DMT or any other controlled substance.
About Kimon de Greef
Kimon de Greef is a South African journalist whose work has appeared in The New Yorker, The New York Times, The Guardian, National Geographic, Guernica and other publications. He has a master&rsquo;s degree in conservation biology from the University of Cape Town and a master&rsquo;s degree in journalism from New York University. Much of his reporting concerns wildlife trafficking, illicit economies and the complicated relationships between human desire and the natural world.
<ul data-start="2326" data-end="2762">
<li data-section-id="soruof" data-start="2326" data-end="2381"><a href="https://kimondegreef.com/?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="2328" data-end="2381">Kimon de Greef&rsquo;s website</a></li>
<li data-section-id="1fudnjv" data-start="2382" data-end="2447"><a data-start="2384" data-end="2447">Kimon on Instagram</a></li>
<li data-section-id="4aj7mp" data-start="2448" data-end="2641"><a href="https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-ego-trip-psychedelic-toads-a-trail-of-deaths-and-the-guru-who-peddled-transcendence-kimon-de-greef/9e7f0e20e04fc1b3?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="2450" data-end="2641">Buy The Ego Trip through Bookshop.org</a></li>
<li data-section-id="healt4" data-start="2642" data-end="2762"><a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/735472/the-ego-trip-by-kimon-de-greef/?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="2644" data-end="2762">Publisher&rsquo;s page for The Ego Trip</a></li>
</ul>
In this episode
<ul data-start="2785" data-end="3671">
<li data-section-id="62vyvx" data-start="2785" data-end="2851">The remarkable monsoon-dependent life of the Sonoran Desert toad</li>
<li data-section-id="15o0v0f" data-start="2852" data-end="2927">What 5-MeO-DMT is, and why &ldquo;toad licking&rdquo; is both inaccurate and dangerous</li>
<li data-section-id="197oq4a" data-start="2928" data-end="2989">How Octavio Rettig helped popularize toad-derived 5-MeO-DMT</li>
<li data-section-id="4o12vo" data-start="2990" data-end="3056">Claims that toad smoking is an ancient Comc&aacute;ac/Seri tradition</li>
<li data-section-id="1hqpym8" data-start="3057" data-end="3126">Psychedelic tourism, cultural appropriation and spiritual marketing</li>
<li data-section-id="xesl5j" data-start="3127" data-end="3207">The economic realities behind supposedly &ldquo;responsibly sourced&rdquo; toad secretions</li>
<li data-section-id="1mmzkj6" data-start="3208" data-end="3284">Toad collection, repeated &ldquo;milking,&rdquo; displacement and disease transmission</li>
<li data-section-id="1r56nxz" data-start="3285" data-end="3349">Why synthetic 5-MeO-DMT removes the need to exploit wild toads</li>
<li data-section-id="1h3d4pb" data-start="3350" data-end="3436">Parallels between the toad trade and the international market for poached white sage</li>
<li data-section-id="1jm2qp1" data-start="3437" data-end="3508">What scientists know and don't know about the toad&rsquo;s population status</li>
<li data-section-id="1h6mcfm" data-start="3509" data-end="3588">The difficulty of conducting conservation research in cartel-controlled areas</li>
<li data-section-id="3zxxi7" data-start="3589" data-end="3671">Why a potentially profound experience can still leave a trail of real-world harm</li>
</ul>
Selected timestamps
<ul data-start="3698" data-end="4498">
<li data-section-id="31lc23" data-start="3698" data-end="3742">00:02:07 &mdash; How Kimon found the story</li>
<li data-section-id="wiv44" data-start="3743" data-end="3797">00:03:52 &mdash; Sonoran Desert toad natural history</li>
<li data-section-id="on1t21" data-start="3798" data-end="3862">00:06:20 &mdash; 5-MeO-DMT and the toad&rsquo;s defensive secretions</li>
<li data-section-id="1bv25uy" data-start="3863" data-end="3928">00:08:47 &mdash; Octavio Rettig and the rise of &ldquo;toad medicine&rdquo;</li>
<li data-section-id="1hii61y" data-start="3929" data-end="4003">00:11:34 &mdash; The Comc&aacute;ac community and claims of recovered tradition</li>
<li data-section-id="1w5zzvl" data-start="4004" data-end="4063">00:14:50 &mdash; Is there evidence of ancestral toad use?</li>
<li data-section-id="1gy8sbt" data-start="4064" data-end="4123">00:20:15 &mdash; Psychedelic tourism and its consequences</li>
<li data-section-id="1pors1k" data-start="4124" data-end="4196">00:22:30 &mdash; Seri ironwood carving and the creation of &ldquo;tradition&rdquo;</li>
<li data-section-id="1r4a1q1" data-start="4197" data-end="4244">00:30:10 &mdash; The parallel with white sage</li>
<li data-section-id="1o08yfl" data-start="4245" data-end="4303">00:34:59 &mdash; Toad-derived versus synthetic 5-MeO-DMT</li>
<li data-section-id="qozby9" data-start="4304" data-end="4361">00:38:44 &mdash; Inside the toad-secretion supply chain</li>
<li data-section-id="1qy0b0c" data-start="4362" data-end="4424">00:44:35 &mdash; What is happening to wild toad populations?</li>
<li data-section-id="158lihx" data-start="4425" data-end="4498">00:50:27 &mdash; Psychedelic experience, reporting and ethical distance</li>
</ul>
Further reading and resources
<ul data-start="4535" data-end="5763">
<li data-section-id="dzrg8h" data-start="4535" data-end="4713">Kimon de Greef&rsquo;s original New Yorker investigation, <a href="https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/03/28/the-pied-piper-of-psychedelic-toads?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="4591" data-end="4713">&ldquo;The Pied Piper of Psychedelic Toads&rdquo;</a></li>
<li data-section-id="12ulgg1" data-start="4714" data-end="4848">De Greef on the collection trade, <a href="https://themicrodose.substack.com/p/the-psychedelic-toad-milkers?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="4750" data-end="4848">&ldquo;The Psychedelic Toad Milkers&rdquo;</a></li>
<li data-section-id="1hwo9a9" data-start="4849" data-end="4984">High Country News, <a href="https://www.hcn.org/issues/53-7/south-wildlife-a-hallucinogenic-toad-in-peril/?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="4870" data-end="4984">&ldquo;A Hallucinogenic Toad in Peril&rdquo;</a></li>
<li data-section-id="4aizyc" data-start="4985" data-end="5133"><a data-start="4987" data-end="5065">Sonoran Desert Toad Fund</a>, supporting research and conservation throughout the species&rsquo; range</li>
<li data-section-id="z05wsz" data-start="5134" data-end="5279"><a href="https://tucsonherpsociety.org/" data-start="5136" data-end="5199">Tucson Herpetological Society</a>, whose president Robert Villa has worked extensively on the toad&rsquo;s conservation</li>
<li data-section-id="58hpi4" data-start="5280" data-end="5372"><a href="https://amphibiaweb.org/species/97?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="5282" data-end="5372">Sonoran Desert toad species account from AmphibiaWeb</a></li>
<li data-section-id="tmn2z3" data-start="5373" data-end="5511">U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, <a href="https://www.fws.gov/species/sonoran-desert-toad-incilius-alvarius?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="5407" data-end="5511">Sonoran Desert toad species profile</a></li>
<li data-section-id="axio6m" data-start="5512" data-end="5658">PLOS One, <a href="https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0335661&amp;utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="5524" data-end="5658">&ldquo;Diet and Chemical Defenses of the Sonoran Desert Toad&rdquo;</a></li>
<li data-section-id="17q4j3k" data-start="5659" data-end="5763">California Native Plant Society, <a href="https://www.cnps.org/conservation/white-sage?utm_source=chatgpt.com" data-start="5694" data-end="5763">White Sage Protection</a></li>
</ul>

Journalist Kimon de Greef follows the dirty business behind psychedelic “toad medicine”: wildlife exploitation, manufactured Indigenous tradition and a global market selling ego death as transcendence.

S3E21: The War on Facts: Environmental Protection after Chevron

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90 Miles from Needles: the Desert Protection Podcast

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