Ever feel like you're winning at life on paper, hitting your steps, your salary goals, your sleep score, and somehow still feel worse? This episode explains why.

Host Michael Easter sits down with the thinker who's lived rent-free in his head for five years: C. Thi Nguyen, a philosophy professor at the University of Utah and author of The Score: How to Stop Playing Somebody Else's Game.

They dig into a phenomenon Nguyen calls "value capture." The moment you start chasing a number, the metric quietly takes over the goal you actually cared about. He walks through vivid examples like how his weight tracker made him eat worse, and why a friend quit rock climbing because it lowered his step count. From there, they zoom out to how this applies to playing video and board games, and how you can in fact use metrics and 'games' to make your life happier, so long as you don't get obsessed. They also discuss longevity culture, and the single question a student wrote on her phone that pulled her out of five years of depression: “Is this the game you really want to be playing?”

Two Percent is hosted by Michael Easter. Today’s episode was produced by Joey Fischground, Robbie Hiser, Dana Brawer and Julia Nutter. From Kaleidoscope, our executive producers are Mangesh Hattikudur and Kate Osborn and Julia Nutter. From iHeart, our executive producers are Katrina Norvell and Nikki Ettore. Our Head of Video is Maria Paz Mendez Hodes. This episode was edited by Joey Fischground. Our theme music is by the Heater Manager.