I got to tell you when I first heard about a county sheriff shooting a judge, the first thing I thought about was my last official day with the Fulton County Sheriff's Department, and that was the day of our courthouse shooting. On that day, Judge Roland Barnes, court reporter Julie Brando, and Sheriff's Deputy Howait Teasley were all murdered. It was March eleventh, two thousand and five, and that day I stood Bravo on Central Avenue before going into Central Command Center. I have just got to bring my friend in, Joshua Schiffer, because y'all know him, y'all respect him, you trust him, and josh I just got to ask you. You know, people don't understand the relationship. They think there's the prosecution and the defense and everybody hates everybody, and then everybody hates the judge, and that's just not true. We have deep friendships and deep respect and sometimes we become family.

I got to tell you when I first heard about a county sheriff shooting a judge, the first thing I thought about was my last official day with the Fulton County Sheriff's Department, and that was the day of our courthouse shooting. On that day, Judge Roland Barnes, court reporter Julie Brando, and Sheriff's Deputy Howait Teasley were all murdered. It was March eleventh, two thousand and five, and that day I stood Bravo on Central Avenue before going into Central Command Center. I have just got to bring my friend in, Joshua Schiffer, because y'all know him, y'all respect him, you trust him, and josh I just got to ask you. You know, people don't understand the relationship. They think there's the prosecution and the defense and everybody hates everybody, and then everybody hates the judge, and that's just not true. We have deep friendships and deep respect and sometimes we become family.

You're absolutely right, Mack. I was sadly there like you. This was the office that I went to every single day. And yeah, it's a big court building. It's actually a complex. There's three buildings built at different times tied together. It's kind of this mess insight, but we made it work. And even as the largest jurisdiction in one of our largest states, it's a small family. And you couldn't have practiced in Fulton County for more than thirty days without running into Hoyt at the security check in without seeing or hearing about Judge Barnes and what he was doing. Judge Barnes was one of the only defense perspective judges that had come out of the defense universe and talk about loved. He was a friend of the prosecution, He was a friend of the defense. He was a friend of people correct, and he lived in the community on the south side of Atlanta, and everybody knew that if you got Judge Bart, you were going to get a fair shot. He wasn't one of these judges that people him and haw about. He was one of these judges that everybody loved and respected because he did the right thing. He called the balls and the strikes. And then you get into the other victims of that day and you realize how we're still connected. You know, over a decade later.

You're absolutely right, Mack. I was sadly there like you. This was the office that I went to every single day. And yeah, it's a big court building. It's actually a complex. There's three buildings built at different times tied together. It's kind of this mess insight, but we made it work. And even as the largest jurisdiction in one of our largest states, it's a small family. And you couldn't have practiced in Fulton County for more than thirty days without running into Hoyt at the security check in without seeing or hearing about Judge Barnes and what he was doing. Judge Barnes was one of the only defense perspective judges that had come out of the defense universe and talk about loved. He was a friend of the prosecution, He was a friend of the defense. He was a friend of people correct, and he lived in the community on the south side of Atlanta, and everybody knew that if you got Judge Bart, you were going to get a fair shot. He wasn't one of these judges that people him and haw about. He was one of these judges that everybody loved and respected because he did the right thing. He called the balls and the strikes. And then you get into the other victims of that day and you realize how we're still connected. You know, over a decade later.

It was career changing, life changing. It left a mark own our courthouse that I am telling you will be generational because you know, Josh always felt safe in the courthouse. I always felt like every single person there was there to protect somebody, to help somebody.

It was career changing, life changing. It left a mark own our courthouse that I am telling you will be generational because you know, Josh always felt safe in the courthouse. I always felt like every single person there was there to protect somebody, to help somebody.

And the great part about being part of that family and people I was there literally every day. We're there to fight, We're there to have contests of intelligence and facts and all. But the only way you can do that is by establishing a protected playground and a sandbox. That's what Hoyt Teasley did. That's what Judge Barnes guaranteed, is that you could come and have your intellectual battle without the fear of physical harm and violence like this in a courthouse robs everyone and makes it impossible to do our jobs when we have violence like this.

And the great part about being part of that family and people I was there literally every day. We're there to fight, We're there to have contests of intelligence and facts and all. But the only way you can do that is by establishing a protected playground and a sandbox. That's what Hoyt Teasley did. That's what Judge Barnes guaranteed, is that you could come and have your intellectual battle without the fear of physical harm and violence like this in a courthouse robs everyone and makes it impossible to do our jobs when we have violence like this.

And I know for me on that day, hoy Teasley could arrest you and put you in jail and take your freedom, so could Judge Barnes. But Julie, She's the only one that was there to get your side on paper, so that if you had a reason for appeal down the road, it was because of her. Nobody deserved it. She was the least that deserved what happened to her. In my opinion.

And I know for me on that day, hoy Teasley could arrest you and put you in jail and take your freedom, so could Judge Barnes. But Julie, She's the only one that was there to get your side on paper, so that if you had a reason for appeal down the road, it was because of her. Nobody deserved it. She was the least that deserved what happened to her. In my opinion.

When you talk about the butterfly effect of violence, Julie was a big part of that because she had nothing that was going to negatively affect Brian Nichols. But his anger, his spark of violence against the judge, his spark of violence against the prosecution team, that butterfly effect, those ripples stole Julie, stole Wilhelm, stole Miss Smith. We haven't talked about the deputy who had the brain injury. When Brian Nichols clocked her head up against the knee wall in the holding area, then I knew, Missman. She was an I don't mean to you, don't take it. She was this heavy set, older African American lady with a deep baritone voice, and she sang. She was like everybody's grandmother. I worked with her every day, sweet lady. Never the same, never the same.

When you talk about the butterfly effect of violence, Julie was a big part of that because she had nothing that was going to negatively affect Brian Nichols. But his anger, his spark of violence against the judge, his spark of violence against the prosecution team, that butterfly effect, those ripples stole Julie, stole Wilhelm, stole Miss Smith. We haven't talked about the deputy who had the brain injury. When Brian Nichols clocked her head up against the knee wall in the holding area, then I knew, Missman. She was an I don't mean to you, don't take it. She was this heavy set, older African American lady with a deep baritone voice, and she sang. She was like everybody's grandmother. I worked with her every day, sweet lady. Never the same, never the same.

Because after he clocked her with his elbow, which knocked her out, she hit a marble floor and cracked her skull. I mean, a severe injury. Again, she didn't deserve it doing her job.

Because after he clocked her with his elbow, which knocked her out, she hit a marble floor and cracked her skull. I mean, a severe injury. Again, she didn't deserve it doing her job.

And it breaks my heart to think about what's going on here in Kentucky because it's magnified.

And it breaks my heart to think about what's going on here in Kentucky because it's magnified.

It's magnified. Oh, my gosh, you're talking about a county of seventeen hundred people. Josh, everybody is connected. You either went to high school or church, or you worked with or you dated, or you're related to everybody in that town.

It's magnified. Oh, my gosh, you're talking about a county of seventeen hundred people. Josh, everybody is connected. You either went to high school or church, or you worked with or you dated, or you're related to everybody in that town.

You're talking about a town that's smaller than a high school. Correct, And to think about that, and to think about how suddenly now we have this short video of inexplicable horror. You see how fast a deadly instrumentality like a gun changes a conversation into a death. And I don't want to get off onto a tangent about Second Amendment. You know, I'm a huge Second Amendment fan, but I'm scared to death about how gun violence is affecting our communities. And this is an illustration exactly of how the best people, the people we love, the people we've chosen to protect us, we've chosen to keep our kids and family and property and animals safe, they have bad days and bad moments were the best of us lose the ability to control ourselves like a savage animal. And I've been there. I've been so angry I could see red. I've been so angry. I've done things that I regret, and it's when you introduce then the idea of instant death in your hand, that that becomes extra scary and it is not a solution for But this is just yet another illustration of how we need to deal with firearms, because these were guys that you know, you give firearm tomorrow man, you're talking about a shriff, You're talking about a judge. Yep, those are the two guys. I definitely want to have guns, yes, as awful as it is. But then we see this mysterious conversation between the two of them that we don't have the details of, we have some speculation, but it resulted in the death of someone that from all report it was, you know, a great, great guy in the community that was trusted. He ran a busy court. He ran the court that basically, if you had an issue in the county, you'd probably go see him first, unless you you did something real bad. He did your traffic, he did your property, he did the daily court.

You're talking about a town that's smaller than a high school. Correct, And to think about that, and to think about how suddenly now we have this short video of inexplicable horror. You see how fast a deadly instrumentality like a gun changes a conversation into a death. And I don't want to get off onto a tangent about Second Amendment. You know, I'm a huge Second Amendment fan, but I'm scared to death about how gun violence is affecting our communities. And this is an illustration exactly of how the best people, the people we love, the people we've chosen to protect us, we've chosen to keep our kids and family and property and animals safe, they have bad days and bad moments were the best of us lose the ability to control ourselves like a savage animal. And I've been there. I've been so angry I could see red. I've been so angry. I've done things that I regret, and it's when you introduce then the idea of instant death in your hand, that that becomes extra scary and it is not a solution for But this is just yet another illustration of how we need to deal with firearms, because these were guys that you know, you give firearm tomorrow man, you're talking about a shriff, You're talking about a judge. Yep, those are the two guys. I definitely want to have guns, yes, as awful as it is. But then we see this mysterious conversation between the two of them that we don't have the details of, we have some speculation, but it resulted in the death of someone that from all report it was, you know, a great, great guy in the community that was trusted. He ran a busy court. He ran the court that basically, if you had an issue in the county, you'd probably go see him first, unless you you did something real bad. He did your traffic, he did your property, he did the daily court.

Josh. Between these two men, everybody at some point in their life had a reason to deal with them. You either went to one of them for a gun, per mint or fingerprinting, or a ticket or an arrest or a marriage license or some type of court hearing you were either a victim or an accuse sitting in front of one or both of them. I mean, it's just mind boggling to me that when you are going to cast this net to find witnesses and people that may have some information, these two people were connected on every level, weren't they.

Josh. Between these two men, everybody at some point in their life had a reason to deal with them. You either went to one of them for a gun, per mint or fingerprinting, or a ticket or an arrest or a marriage license or some type of court hearing you were either a victim or an accuse sitting in front of one or both of them. I mean, it's just mind boggling to me that when you are going to cast this net to find witnesses and people that may have some information, these two people were connected on every level, weren't they.

Yeah, you really can't get away from the size of this community. This is so tight that we've already got the recusal of the local DA because the DA and the judgment married sisters. And that's the kind of community. You know, all these people go to the same handful of churches. And when I think about a town like this and the town that I spent time in as a child, you know, there's the big Methodist church and the big Baptist church in the big am and you know, that's how the community is put together. So that's exactly how the community falls apart. And that's really my fear is that this death, this incident is gonna just render this community to rubble. And I hope local leadership, especially the faith community, is ready to deal with it because it just breaks my heart to know what happens to the kids of this community and the future of this community.

Yeah, you really can't get away from the size of this community. This is so tight that we've already got the recusal of the local DA because the DA and the judgment married sisters. And that's the kind of community. You know, all these people go to the same handful of churches. And when I think about a town like this and the town that I spent time in as a child, you know, there's the big Methodist church and the big Baptist church in the big am and you know, that's how the community is put together. So that's exactly how the community falls apart. And that's really my fear is that this death, this incident is gonna just render this community to rubble. And I hope local leadership, especially the faith community, is ready to deal with it because it just breaks my heart to know what happens to the kids of this community and the future of this community.

And you know, right now, rumors are wildfires, and there is information already out there that the sheriff's minor daughter, her phone number was possibly in the judge's phone. We know from the video that the sheriff made a call on the judge's phone. So again, there's more pain and more hurt coming for this community.

And you know, right now, rumors are wildfires, and there is information already out there that the sheriff's minor daughter, her phone number was possibly in the judge's phone. We know from the video that the sheriff made a call on the judge's phone. So again, there's more pain and more hurt coming for this community.

Yeah, and let's talk about some of those rumors right now, because they came out, I'm telling you, within an hour of the shooting. The social media universe was frothing. And I love that because you like Misha, you love information. You love the intimacy and the direct information we get from primary sources. Like they taught us about in elementary school, if you want the truth, you got to go to the primary source. And that's the great thing about social media. But it also starts some real painful, horrible and wrongful information from spreading out there. So let's talk about what we really do know. We know that these gentlemen had known each other for years, that they shared tons of friends, that they'd literally eaten lunch together prior to the shooting. And the lawyers come out and already talked about the fact that the limited number of statements we know about. There was some mention of needing to meet privately in chambers between these two men. We know that they had worked together and the sheriff had actually been the bailiff in judges' courtroom for a little bit. We know that there was a lawsuit that had been filed previously about some behavior with another deputy and an inmate in the judges' chambers. Don't know what happened with it, don't know what the truth is. We know the allegations, but I'm a plaintiff lawyer too, I know sometimes the allegations don't necessarily mean the truth at all times, so we don't know what's going on there. But most importantly, we've got this issue with the judge's mine or daughter and her connectability and whatever was going on between the sheriff and the judges I think around fifteen sixteen year old teenage daughter, with the current most firm allegation being that there was some sort of contact that is alluded to be inappropriate between the judge and the depth or the sheriff's daughter, And we know that after the shooting. Really the only phrase we know after the shooting involves the sheriff asking law enforcement to treat them fairly.

Yeah, and let's talk about some of those rumors right now, because they came out, I'm telling you, within an hour of the shooting. The social media universe was frothing. And I love that because you like Misha, you love information. You love the intimacy and the direct information we get from primary sources. Like they taught us about in elementary school, if you want the truth, you got to go to the primary source. And that's the great thing about social media. But it also starts some real painful, horrible and wrongful information from spreading out there. So let's talk about what we really do know. We know that these gentlemen had known each other for years, that they shared tons of friends, that they'd literally eaten lunch together prior to the shooting. And the lawyers come out and already talked about the fact that the limited number of statements we know about. There was some mention of needing to meet privately in chambers between these two men. We know that they had worked together and the sheriff had actually been the bailiff in judges' courtroom for a little bit. We know that there was a lawsuit that had been filed previously about some behavior with another deputy and an inmate in the judges' chambers. Don't know what happened with it, don't know what the truth is. We know the allegations, but I'm a plaintiff lawyer too, I know sometimes the allegations don't necessarily mean the truth at all times, so we don't know what's going on there. But most importantly, we've got this issue with the judge's mine or daughter and her connectability and whatever was going on between the sheriff and the judges I think around fifteen sixteen year old teenage daughter, with the current most firm allegation being that there was some sort of contact that is alluded to be inappropriate between the judge and the depth or the sheriff's daughter, And we know that after the shooting. Really the only phrase we know after the shooting involves the sheriff asking law enforcement to treat them fairly.

And that, to me is a powerful statement.

And that, to me is a powerful statement.

I don't know how you want to chop it up, but to me, it's an admission. It's super admissible. It's coming in.

I don't know how you want to chop it up, but to me, it's an admission. It's super admissible. It's coming in.

Yeah, and it should. And I'll tell you something. To me, I take that as what I did. I'm telling you I did it, but I'm telling you I had a reason to do it, and I would do it again.

Yeah, and it should. And I'll tell you something. To me, I take that as what I did. I'm telling you I did it, but I'm telling you I had a reason to do it, and I would do it again.

One of the core things that make us American our available affirmative defenses for our actions. And we've talked about this a million times. There's three unbelievable well built in. You get them, no matter what defense is to any allegation. It was in me. I didn't do it, and he needed kill it.

One of the core things that make us American our available affirmative defenses for our actions. And we've talked about this a million times. There's three unbelievable well built in. You get them, no matter what defense is to any allegation. It was in me. I didn't do it, and he needed kill it.

And let's just talk about men and women for a minute. There is something primal about protecting the people you love.

And let's just talk about men and women for a minute. There is something primal about protecting the people you love.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

My son, when it comes to his sister, we didn't teach him that. We never told him, Hey, any boy she dates, mistreat him a little bit, don't let him have a pass. Let him know what would happen if she gets hurting anyway.

My son, when it comes to his sister, we didn't teach him that. We never told him, Hey, any boy she dates, mistreat him a little bit, don't let him have a pass. Let him know what would happen if she gets hurting anyway.

And it's that combination, and no one knows the answers what's built into our very souls of creation. Okay, the moment you arrive here in creation, you are going to protect yourself and pro create. As part of that, you're going to protect the people in your tribe, in your community, and your family to do those things. And that involves if you see someone getting this treated that's that close, especially someone vulnerable, especially someone who's not mature enough to necessarily defend yourself defend themselves. It creates that obligation you have as a family member to protect the ones you love.

And it's that combination, and no one knows the answers what's built into our very souls of creation. Okay, the moment you arrive here in creation, you are going to protect yourself and pro create. As part of that, you're going to protect the people in your tribe, in your community, and your family to do those things. And that involves if you see someone getting this treated that's that close, especially someone vulnerable, especially someone who's not mature enough to necessarily defend yourself defend themselves. It creates that obligation you have as a family member to protect the ones you love.

Yes, but Josh, you think in your past you have a string of romantic people. There's your mama. But when it comes to your daughter, oh boy, could you think of anything that would cause you to just completely lose everything that you are more than defending her protecting her.

Yes, but Josh, you think in your past you have a string of romantic people. There's your mama. But when it comes to your daughter, oh boy, could you think of anything that would cause you to just completely lose everything that you are more than defending her protecting her.

I think that you see the vector of protection being one of self sacrifice in this.

I think that you see the vector of protection being one of self sacrifice in this.

Situation without thinking about it.

Situation without thinking about it.

Yeah, so when I reverse roles, which is the most powerful tool you have as an analyst of life, is the ability to reverse roles to get insightens why they don't let you talk about it in trial. You have the ability to think about why that person made the decision. We've got a very educated, sophisticated, grounded man walking in with a firearm and coldly, calculatedly shooting a judge. But it's based on emotion. Sure, is there some sort of pre thought premeditation. It's going to be a big question for the DA or is this something where the sheriff is going to say, when I confirmed this terrible news, I knew what I had to do, and that's protect my child in the future, not just now, in the future, because that's a lot of this. You can't stop lots of things in this world unless you're going to be prepared to stop them permanently.

Yeah, so when I reverse roles, which is the most powerful tool you have as an analyst of life, is the ability to reverse roles to get insightens why they don't let you talk about it in trial. You have the ability to think about why that person made the decision. We've got a very educated, sophisticated, grounded man walking in with a firearm and coldly, calculatedly shooting a judge. But it's based on emotion. Sure, is there some sort of pre thought premeditation. It's going to be a big question for the DA or is this something where the sheriff is going to say, when I confirmed this terrible news, I knew what I had to do, and that's protect my child in the future, not just now, in the future, because that's a lot of this. You can't stop lots of things in this world unless you're going to be prepared to stop them permanently.

When we watch the video, the sheriff starts the far right of the screen, He moves all the way left to the side of the desk where the judge is now hiding. He walks all the way back to the far right, bends down under the desk and fires. More So, premeditation is owned the table, at least in the second series of shots.

When we watch the video, the sheriff starts the far right of the screen, He moves all the way left to the side of the desk where the judge is now hiding. He walks all the way back to the far right, bends down under the desk and fires. More So, premeditation is owned the table, at least in the second series of shots.

The arguments for charging and people get lost in Oh, it's murder, it's manslaughter, it's involunt Well, this is going to be the example of how that argument takes place, because you can't say you can't deny that there was an issue happening when the two men enter the room. There's clearly some sort of reason for the meeting. And then you've got the trigger, which is whatever the statement, confirmation, meeting of the minds or not meeting of the minds, that triggers the violence. And it's that inflection point. It's that nexus that the District Attorney's office has to look at when deciding whether there was some form of premeditation, what part of this had some aggravation, Where could outrageous emotional influences take over the mind and body of an otherwise remarkable public person and public servant, And what kind of emotional issue would happen to justify them deviating so much from their sworn and moral duties to end the life of one of the community leaders, someone that he knew, someone that he knew deeply, someone that was connected family, someone that was an important part of the community. And that's where they're going to get into the argument of premeditation and the death penalty, y'all versus a lower charge such as manslaughter, and we don't know what those facts are. You that's going to be part of a tragic analysis as this case of.

The arguments for charging and people get lost in Oh, it's murder, it's manslaughter, it's involunt Well, this is going to be the example of how that argument takes place, because you can't say you can't deny that there was an issue happening when the two men enter the room. There's clearly some sort of reason for the meeting. And then you've got the trigger, which is whatever the statement, confirmation, meeting of the minds or not meeting of the minds, that triggers the violence. And it's that inflection point. It's that nexus that the District Attorney's office has to look at when deciding whether there was some form of premeditation, what part of this had some aggravation, Where could outrageous emotional influences take over the mind and body of an otherwise remarkable public person and public servant, And what kind of emotional issue would happen to justify them deviating so much from their sworn and moral duties to end the life of one of the community leaders, someone that he knew, someone that he knew deeply, someone that was connected family, someone that was an important part of the community. And that's where they're going to get into the argument of premeditation and the death penalty, y'all versus a lower charge such as manslaughter, and we don't know what those facts are. You that's going to be part of a tragic analysis as this case of.

Alls and Josh, I just want to say again so that everybody is super clear, there are times if you were to go to a DA or to a judge and say, look, I've never come to you. I am telling you this person does not belong in jail. They need help, they would hear you. And so at the end of the day, the prosecutor, the judge, the defense attorney, everybody's there to help. And this judge and this sheriff, we're doing great things about getting fitanel off the street and making sure people got help with abuse, not just jail. Jail is not going to cure that problem, but getting them help will, understanding the disease will. This community didn't just lose two people that worked for the local government. They lost people they trusted, people that were looking out for them, people that kept them safe, people that wanted the best for them. So again, the level of hurt on all sides. Think of the number of people just like us that fateful March day. You lose multiple friends. And you know, Walt and I were talking not long ago that, you know, jokingly kind of but not really. We're almost at the age if we were to meet somebody today. I don't know that we can be friends twenty years. We may not have twenty years, but this community, this is that's going to be generational pain, I'm telling you.

Alls and Josh, I just want to say again so that everybody is super clear, there are times if you were to go to a DA or to a judge and say, look, I've never come to you. I am telling you this person does not belong in jail. They need help, they would hear you. And so at the end of the day, the prosecutor, the judge, the defense attorney, everybody's there to help. And this judge and this sheriff, we're doing great things about getting fitanel off the street and making sure people got help with abuse, not just jail. Jail is not going to cure that problem, but getting them help will, understanding the disease will. This community didn't just lose two people that worked for the local government. They lost people they trusted, people that were looking out for them, people that kept them safe, people that wanted the best for them. So again, the level of hurt on all sides. Think of the number of people just like us that fateful March day. You lose multiple friends. And you know, Walt and I were talking not long ago that, you know, jokingly kind of but not really. We're almost at the age if we were to meet somebody today. I don't know that we can be friends twenty years. We may not have twenty years, but this community, this is that's going to be generational pain, I'm telling you.

And then I put on my more clinical government hat and I look at the institutional loss when when you try to distill it down into something as dumb as money, you're talking about two individ Just take the sheriff and the judge. You're talking about several years of education. That's that's worked specific. But then you've got decades of training. You don't just get to be a judge or a sheriff, and you know that's it used to know. The investment in the community from training and public facilities is huge. But even more than that is that institutional knowledge of how it all connects. You can't just go plug somebody in that knows all these people, that knows the dynamic. That's the importance of ultralocal control. It's why every state has these lower levels of government interaction where you need someone who's part of the community because they understand and your low traditions, your local rules, your local understandings. That's the barrier where most people interact with the government and to lose two people with that much institutional knowledge, decades of connections, decades of training, decades of understanding the problems intimately so they can make the best solutions in their mind. I'm not saying the solutions are right or wrong, but just being exposed to the problem for that long makes you a better public servant at addressing things like fetanyl. We weren't ready for fetanyl. Fetanal is a scourge. It makes meta and fetamines look like tic TACs.

And then I put on my more clinical government hat and I look at the institutional loss when when you try to distill it down into something as dumb as money, you're talking about two individ Just take the sheriff and the judge. You're talking about several years of education. That's that's worked specific. But then you've got decades of training. You don't just get to be a judge or a sheriff, and you know that's it used to know. The investment in the community from training and public facilities is huge. But even more than that is that institutional knowledge of how it all connects. You can't just go plug somebody in that knows all these people, that knows the dynamic. That's the importance of ultralocal control. It's why every state has these lower levels of government interaction where you need someone who's part of the community because they understand and your low traditions, your local rules, your local understandings. That's the barrier where most people interact with the government and to lose two people with that much institutional knowledge, decades of connections, decades of training, decades of understanding the problems intimately so they can make the best solutions in their mind. I'm not saying the solutions are right or wrong, but just being exposed to the problem for that long makes you a better public servant at addressing things like fetanyl. We weren't ready for fetanyl. Fetanal is a scourge. It makes meta and fetamines look like tic TACs.

Mm hmmm.

Mm hmmm.

And these officers were raised, these these public servants, like my generation, like your generation. We each have our struggles that are that are taking over our industry. And in the in the eighties it was this crack epidemic, then we moved on to different stuff in the nineties, then the two that now we have fentanyl. When we lose two people so deeply involved in our criminal justice system, it sets back the whole area in fighting the scourges that we ask law enforcement and our government to protect us from.

And these officers were raised, these these public servants, like my generation, like your generation. We each have our struggles that are that are taking over our industry. And in the in the eighties it was this crack epidemic, then we moved on to different stuff in the nineties, then the two that now we have fentanyl. When we lose two people so deeply involved in our criminal justice system, it sets back the whole area in fighting the scourges that we ask law enforcement and our government to protect us from.

Now, Joshua Schieffer, let's just get real. The next thing I'm fixing to say to you as a defense attorney should make you just need to lie down with a cool rag on your head. What is going to happen to all the criminal cases that both of these men are in trent with.

Now, Joshua Schieffer, let's just get real. The next thing I'm fixing to say to you as a defense attorney should make you just need to lie down with a cool rag on your head. What is going to happen to all the criminal cases that both of these men are in trent with.

Well, unfortunately, we have some rules and stuff set up to keep the system of justice rolling along. It's just bumpy and some of our constitutional guarantees now they get a little bit wigglier. When it comes to replacement individuals. The state bar is going to come in and make sure that someone is competent and available to serve. When it comes to basic law enforcement operations, there's a chain of command, and now that the sheriff has resign I'm certain that there was an assumption of an interim chief Sheriff or head sheriff. Hopefully Andy Basheer, who obviously is deeply aware of what's going on, his state agencies get to step in and try to ensure as much as possible the continuation of government services to a minimum level. And thankfully this part of Kentucky didn't get beat up like so much of the rest of Appalachia here recently. God God forbid that. But the system's going to get its hiccup. There are going to be some problems where people's cases weren't dealt with appropriately and the system has remedies such as your speedy trial, and unfortunately some things are going to take longer than they otherwise would, but there are remedies for that, letting people out on bond, you know, bringing in it associate judges. Lots of times you see trials being done by semi retired or senior judges visiting judges from other communities because this was a law not just in the community, but the statewide organization. The other sheriffs know the sheriff, the other judges know the judge. When Judge Barnes was assassinated, one of the issues was the loss to the community of judges because he had been a longtime bridge builder from a very urban community of Fulton County and a less urban communities of our suburbs and our rural areas. Because Judge Barnes spoke all those dialects. And you can't quantify what that loss is because it's measured in things like, oh, because Judge Barnes wasn't there, That judge, never met that judge to start this great thing. That's the kind of positive externality we are never going to experience because of this death, and that loss is it's it's truly tragic when you see what could have been, what spontaneity could have sparked, and we don't ever get that. That's a theft from the community. And it's the theft that violence brings. Violence steals from us.

Well, unfortunately, we have some rules and stuff set up to keep the system of justice rolling along. It's just bumpy and some of our constitutional guarantees now they get a little bit wigglier. When it comes to replacement individuals. The state bar is going to come in and make sure that someone is competent and available to serve. When it comes to basic law enforcement operations, there's a chain of command, and now that the sheriff has resign I'm certain that there was an assumption of an interim chief Sheriff or head sheriff. Hopefully Andy Basheer, who obviously is deeply aware of what's going on, his state agencies get to step in and try to ensure as much as possible the continuation of government services to a minimum level. And thankfully this part of Kentucky didn't get beat up like so much of the rest of Appalachia here recently. God God forbid that. But the system's going to get its hiccup. There are going to be some problems where people's cases weren't dealt with appropriately and the system has remedies such as your speedy trial, and unfortunately some things are going to take longer than they otherwise would, but there are remedies for that, letting people out on bond, you know, bringing in it associate judges. Lots of times you see trials being done by semi retired or senior judges visiting judges from other communities because this was a law not just in the community, but the statewide organization. The other sheriffs know the sheriff, the other judges know the judge. When Judge Barnes was assassinated, one of the issues was the loss to the community of judges because he had been a longtime bridge builder from a very urban community of Fulton County and a less urban communities of our suburbs and our rural areas. Because Judge Barnes spoke all those dialects. And you can't quantify what that loss is because it's measured in things like, oh, because Judge Barnes wasn't there, That judge, never met that judge to start this great thing. That's the kind of positive externality we are never going to experience because of this death, and that loss is it's it's truly tragic when you see what could have been, what spontaneity could have sparked, and we don't ever get that. That's a theft from the community. And it's the theft that violence brings. Violence steals from us.

All amen, And you know, I think this case is going to expose some mental illness, some anger management, stress of the job, community problems, and family protection. I do. And I think it's going to be layer upon layer, and again everybody is going to get hurt by it. Nobody in that entire community is going to win.

All amen, And you know, I think this case is going to expose some mental illness, some anger management, stress of the job, community problems, and family protection. I do. And I think it's going to be layer upon layer, and again everybody is going to get hurt by it. Nobody in that entire community is going to win.

Yeah, we've got a big onion. You've got a whole sack ful, bluntly of issues that are going to be delicate where people are going to be hurt because let's again go kind of clinical, Well, what should have happened? Well, what should happen when a relative of a sheriff is having relations with a relative of a judge And where does disclosure? Now I'm not saying something inopportune or period or anything like that. No, I'm talking about the twenty five year old kid of the judge dates the twenty five year old kid of the sheriff. Now, big chunks of that's nobody's business. Those aren't the elected people. Those aren't you know, public individuals. They could do whatever they want. I think that's great, but eventually there's a line where it stops being great if you continue it in that spectrum. In there, there could be future problems. Where is mandatory disclosure? Where does something else need to come in to make sure everything's on the straightened level, on the square, as my Masons would say, Because now what we've got by changing variables, say, the relationship which is just friendly even is between an adult and a minor. When when does someone have to say something? When should they say something? And that and I know, Cheryl, you've you and I have had this issue. The difference between shall and may gets real big when you get down to personal relations and exposure. That could ruin somebody's personal life and or career because I may tell people versus I shall tell people. Oh boy, yeah, yeah, that's that's a very uncomfortable perch.

Yeah, we've got a big onion. You've got a whole sack ful, bluntly of issues that are going to be delicate where people are going to be hurt because let's again go kind of clinical, Well, what should have happened? Well, what should happen when a relative of a sheriff is having relations with a relative of a judge And where does disclosure? Now I'm not saying something inopportune or period or anything like that. No, I'm talking about the twenty five year old kid of the judge dates the twenty five year old kid of the sheriff. Now, big chunks of that's nobody's business. Those aren't the elected people. Those aren't you know, public individuals. They could do whatever they want. I think that's great, but eventually there's a line where it stops being great if you continue it in that spectrum. In there, there could be future problems. Where is mandatory disclosure? Where does something else need to come in to make sure everything's on the straightened level, on the square, as my Masons would say, Because now what we've got by changing variables, say, the relationship which is just friendly even is between an adult and a minor. When when does someone have to say something? When should they say something? And that and I know, Cheryl, you've you and I have had this issue. The difference between shall and may gets real big when you get down to personal relations and exposure. That could ruin somebody's personal life and or career because I may tell people versus I shall tell people. Oh boy, yeah, yeah, that's that's a very uncomfortable perch.

I hope everybody heard that may versus shall. But I'm going to tell you something, Joshua Schieffer. I love you, I adore you, I believe in you, I respect you. But my daughter's number ain't in your phone. Yeah, and your daughter's number certainly is not in my phone. Caroline has at least grown your daughter's not. Now, let me be clear, because I don't want anybody to miss unders tell.

I hope everybody heard that may versus shall. But I'm going to tell you something, Joshua Schieffer. I love you, I adore you, I believe in you, I respect you. But my daughter's number ain't in your phone. Yeah, and your daughter's number certainly is not in my phone. Caroline has at least grown your daughter's not. Now, let me be clear, because I don't want anybody to miss unders tell.

What I'm saying.

What I'm saying.

If your daughter ever needed anything and got my number out of your phone, call me. I will do anything I can to help her. I don't need to text her. Call her. We ain't buddies, we aren't friends. We're not gonna talk about movies or music, or boys or anything else that is not a relationship I need to have. I will straight up say it the other thing to me. And this is what I think it's gonna come down to. And this I think we're gonna hear over and over when it comes time to trial. If all the rumors are true and what they saw on the video is true, if that sheriff from the judge's phone called his daughter, it depends on how she answered.

If your daughter ever needed anything and got my number out of your phone, call me. I will do anything I can to help her. I don't need to text her. Call her. We ain't buddies, we aren't friends. We're not gonna talk about movies or music, or boys or anything else that is not a relationship I need to have. I will straight up say it the other thing to me. And this is what I think it's gonna come down to. And this I think we're gonna hear over and over when it comes time to trial. If all the rumors are true and what they saw on the video is true, if that sheriff from the judge's phone called his daughter, it depends on how she answered.

Boy now on the head. Because you know, premeditation can be formed in the blink of an eye. And ladies and gentlemen, when we talk about premeditation, that's where we talk about do you get a needle or do you get bars?

Boy now on the head. Because you know, premeditation can be formed in the blink of an eye. And ladies and gentlemen, when we talk about premeditation, that's where we talk about do you get a needle or do you get bars?

And keep in mind it's around three o'clock. She would have still been in school, so she's answering a phone call from a judge during school hours. So if she answered, and y'all, this is all hypothetical. But if she answered judge melons, can I help you versus hey bee? Because all I can tell you is right after that he got shot multiple times.

And keep in mind it's around three o'clock. She would have still been in school, so she's answering a phone call from a judge during school hours. So if she answered, and y'all, this is all hypothetical. But if she answered judge melons, can I help you versus hey bee? Because all I can tell you is right after that he got shot multiple times.

And anyone that spends time with teenagers, the only thing you know guaranteed is their unpredictability. That's like nailing down a piece of yellow on the wall. You just can't do it. You don't know where their brain is because their brain is growing and developing. We talk about this all the time. Where one moment they can be the most salient and oriented and really accurate, great fire and brain on all cylinders. The next time it's like talking to a box of rocks. It's absolutely, as a dad myself, something that's frightening because you pack your kid with morals and values and the ability to make good decisions, but you know they don't have the ability or capacity to make good decisions one hundred percent of the time. I sure didn't. I did all kinds of things that I look back now and go, well, that's that would have killed me. Oh that was done. I looked a road on fire in the middle of the night. We did things in Cobb County in the nineteen eighties and nineties that I would be run.

And anyone that spends time with teenagers, the only thing you know guaranteed is their unpredictability. That's like nailing down a piece of yellow on the wall. You just can't do it. You don't know where their brain is because their brain is growing and developing. We talk about this all the time. Where one moment they can be the most salient and oriented and really accurate, great fire and brain on all cylinders. The next time it's like talking to a box of rocks. It's absolutely, as a dad myself, something that's frightening because you pack your kid with morals and values and the ability to make good decisions, but you know they don't have the ability or capacity to make good decisions one hundred percent of the time. I sure didn't. I did all kinds of things that I look back now and go, well, that's that would have killed me. Oh that was done. I looked a road on fire in the middle of the night. We did things in Cobb County in the nineteen eighties and nineties that I would be run.

Oh my lord, Oh yeah, oh yeah, we would have done time today.

Oh my lord, Oh yeah, oh yeah, we would have done time today.

Oh oh, I've been in the room with the people doing the dumb and it's just like, gosh, dang, if they'd known. And it's one of reasons that I feel so strongly about how we punish youthful people, because it's not worth wasting entire life over the stupidity and incongruity of you. But when you talk about a call from a fifteen year old, who knows what that fifteen or sixteen or child has said and done? Who knows about the truth there, Who knows what the dynamic is and whether the sheriff was operating on truthful information what he believed was truthful. Absolutely fucked. Who knows other than that at the moment of this video, there's no question he intended to shoot and kill the judge at that moment, At that moment, no question.

Oh oh, I've been in the room with the people doing the dumb and it's just like, gosh, dang, if they'd known. And it's one of reasons that I feel so strongly about how we punish youthful people, because it's not worth wasting entire life over the stupidity and incongruity of you. But when you talk about a call from a fifteen year old, who knows what that fifteen or sixteen or child has said and done? Who knows about the truth there, Who knows what the dynamic is and whether the sheriff was operating on truthful information what he believed was truthful. Absolutely fucked. Who knows other than that at the moment of this video, there's no question he intended to shoot and kill the judge at that moment, At that moment, no question.

Last question I have for you, last question before and I'm sure we're going to come back and talk about this more. Where in the world do you find a jury? Ah, I mean, how far out of town do you have to go?

Last question I have for you, last question before and I'm sure we're going to come back and talk about this more. Where in the world do you find a jury? Ah, I mean, how far out of town do you have to go?

The chain of venues a guinea what I really think happens due to the gravity. And this is all contingent on what is discovered with empirical evidence, not a bunch of speculation, but empirical evidence. Someone is going to investigate and expose what empirical evidence of the relationship in dynamic existed and make the very difficult call whether this is going to be a plea case or whether this is going to be a death penalty case, because there aren't pleasing death penalty unless it's a bully move to move move them, move them off the death penalty. But that decision when it's made, and they've already told to share at arrayment at first or sorry not at first appearance. This death penalty qualified crime. That's going to determine the defense tactic because it becomes about saving lives versus winning cases. There's going to be a lot of discussion over the applicability of the death penalty because if you go pull one hundred people in Kentucky or any other state and say, what are the justifications for shooting and killing somebody. Inappropriate relations with my teenage child is pretty high on that list. And you could try the case by walking out front with the first twelve and saying, ladies and gentlemen, we are in Kentucky, it's twenty twenty five, and that the victim of this case was having an inappropriate relationship with the defendant's daughter that violated not just the laws of this great nation, but our moral judgment in this community. We are asking you to acquit him because he killed the man who was doing that to his incompetent daughter. Thank you very much, and sit down.

The chain of venues a guinea what I really think happens due to the gravity. And this is all contingent on what is discovered with empirical evidence, not a bunch of speculation, but empirical evidence. Someone is going to investigate and expose what empirical evidence of the relationship in dynamic existed and make the very difficult call whether this is going to be a plea case or whether this is going to be a death penalty case, because there aren't pleasing death penalty unless it's a bully move to move move them, move them off the death penalty. But that decision when it's made, and they've already told to share at arrayment at first or sorry not at first appearance. This death penalty qualified crime. That's going to determine the defense tactic because it becomes about saving lives versus winning cases. There's going to be a lot of discussion over the applicability of the death penalty because if you go pull one hundred people in Kentucky or any other state and say, what are the justifications for shooting and killing somebody. Inappropriate relations with my teenage child is pretty high on that list. And you could try the case by walking out front with the first twelve and saying, ladies and gentlemen, we are in Kentucky, it's twenty twenty five, and that the victim of this case was having an inappropriate relationship with the defendant's daughter that violated not just the laws of this great nation, but our moral judgment in this community. We are asking you to acquit him because he killed the man who was doing that to his incompetent daughter. Thank you very much, and sit down.

He walks every time I kind.

He walks every time I kind.

Of think he does. You don't got to win twelve Cheryl, move.

Of think he does. You don't got to win twelve Cheryl, move.

You need you need let me tell you something. You need one daddy, Yeah, you need one daddy on that journey.

You need you need let me tell you something. You need one daddy, Yeah, you need one daddy on that journey.

And it's not politics. Oh care if you're a conservative. I don't care if you're a man. There are a couple of just hard and fast universal rules in this universe, and touching my kids is one of them.

And it's not politics. Oh care if you're a conservative. I don't care if you're a man. There are a couple of just hard and fast universal rules in this universe, and touching my kids is one of them.

One hundred yep. And listen, you know I think too, they're going to have to go back to this whole sex abuse case with the deputy that pled guilty finally, because they said that the judge was getting real agitated during his deposition. He was getting more and more upset. I don't know that something didn't come out then because some of the allegations there was the judge's chambers was used as a place that deputy would take people.

One hundred yep. And listen, you know I think too, they're going to have to go back to this whole sex abuse case with the deputy that pled guilty finally, because they said that the judge was getting real agitated during his deposition. He was getting more and more upset. I don't know that something didn't come out then because some of the allegations there was the judge's chambers was used as a place that deputy would take people.

So it's the site, and we all know it's on video, and so did the judge. And that's why, again it's so hard to keep our feet in our shoes and not jump up because there's more.

So it's the site, and we all know it's on video, and so did the judge. And that's why, again it's so hard to keep our feet in our shoes and not jump up because there's more.

There's more, yep.

There's more, yep.

That case. Who knows what kind of personal exposure. So when you're dealing with people who have notoriety and power and influence, what's important to you is not what's necessarily important to them. They understand what their exposures are, and something such as a judge violating an administrative rule can roll down the hill, become an absolute boulder and destroy a career. And we don't know what the inside impact of that lawsuit was. We don't know if there's an email out there that's just a scorcher between the county administrator and the judge and the sheriff's department about this that, and we don't know if that incident exposed other things, because let's just be honest. The best people about us, the people that run and we love, they're not immune from bad decisions. Some of our best communities have the rot of corruption and wrongful action implanted deep within, and it's a constant effort to keep our healthy by exposing that rot and corruption, because really good, wonderful people do fall to the sin, to the temptation of sin, whether that's money, whether that's sex, whether that's power, whether that's great and really amazing people could do some super dumb things.

That case. Who knows what kind of personal exposure. So when you're dealing with people who have notoriety and power and influence, what's important to you is not what's necessarily important to them. They understand what their exposures are, and something such as a judge violating an administrative rule can roll down the hill, become an absolute boulder and destroy a career. And we don't know what the inside impact of that lawsuit was. We don't know if there's an email out there that's just a scorcher between the county administrator and the judge and the sheriff's department about this that, and we don't know if that incident exposed other things, because let's just be honest. The best people about us, the people that run and we love, they're not immune from bad decisions. Some of our best communities have the rot of corruption and wrongful action implanted deep within, and it's a constant effort to keep our healthy by exposing that rot and corruption, because really good, wonderful people do fall to the sin, to the temptation of sin, whether that's money, whether that's sex, whether that's power, whether that's great and really amazing people could do some super dumb things.

I think that is the best way to leave this. It could not be stated any better. And Joshua Schiffer, I appreciate you. I appreciate your friendship, your honesty, and most of all, the way every day you get up and go to a different courthouse to help somebody.

I think that is the best way to leave this. It could not be stated any better. And Joshua Schiffer, I appreciate you. I appreciate your friendship, your honesty, and most of all, the way every day you get up and go to a different courthouse to help somebody.

Cheryl, you know that I'm one of your biggest fans out there, and I adore you bringing an additional depth to this content out there. I get so frustrated at what I see out there in the university being led with just clicks and reactions instead of discussions and thoughtfulness. And what the world needs is a lot more thoughtfulness.

Cheryl, you know that I'm one of your biggest fans out there, and I adore you bringing an additional depth to this content out there. I get so frustrated at what I see out there in the university being led with just clicks and reactions instead of discussions and thoughtfulness. And what the world needs is a lot more thoughtfulness.

I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I always do with a quote. The whole counting is just devastated by this. We've lost not only our sheriff and a district judge. I've lost two personal friends that I worked with every day, circuit clerk Mike Watts. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven

I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I always do with a quote. The whole counting is just devastated by this. We've lost not only our sheriff and a district judge. I've lost two personal friends that I worked with every day, circuit clerk Mike Watts. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven