Case nine forty seven out of Hobbs, New Mexico. It was July twenty third, nineteen fifty seven, a Tuesday, at four am. Dorothy Gibson and Barbara Lemons were traveling together from Carlsbad to Hobbs, New Mexico on Highway one point eighty. They were in a nineteen fifty two Plymouth. They had a flat tire. They pulled just off the roadway and that is when JD. Cantraill, driving his work truck, pulled his rig off the road, left it running with the lights on, and it appears that JD was in the process of changing the tires when he was shot and killed. JD had been shot eight times with a small caliber weapon. Two females were not at the scene when a Good samaritan rolled up and found JD inside their car. Sheriff's deputies found their purses and shoes and an id. The scene also showed a powerful struggle. JD had left his home about three ten am, and again his body was found by four The two women were later found off Highway two thirty eight. Both had been shot and it appeared to be a twenty two weapon. An old field worker found them right at the Buckeye cutoff. The two female victims had been out the night before with a male friend. They drove him home to Carlsbad and were headed back to Hobbs when they had the flat tire. The area where they were found is flat, hot, full of tumbleweeds and cactus. The victims, Dorothy Gibson, was twenty three, divorced, lived in a small house at two two five South Coleman. Barbara Lemons also twenty three and divorced. We're going to get back to Barbara in a second.

Case nine forty seven out of Hobbs, New Mexico. It was July twenty third, nineteen fifty seven, a Tuesday, at four am. Dorothy Gibson and Barbara Lemons were traveling together from Carlsbad to Hobbs, New Mexico on Highway one point eighty. They were in a nineteen fifty two Plymouth. They had a flat tire. They pulled just off the roadway and that is when JD. Cantraill, driving his work truck, pulled his rig off the road, left it running with the lights on, and it appears that JD was in the process of changing the tires when he was shot and killed. JD had been shot eight times with a small caliber weapon. Two females were not at the scene when a Good samaritan rolled up and found JD inside their car. Sheriff's deputies found their purses and shoes and an id. The scene also showed a powerful struggle. JD had left his home about three ten am, and again his body was found by four The two women were later found off Highway two thirty eight. Both had been shot and it appeared to be a twenty two weapon. An old field worker found them right at the Buckeye cutoff. The two female victims had been out the night before with a male friend. They drove him home to Carlsbad and were headed back to Hobbs when they had the flat tire. The area where they were found is flat, hot, full of tumbleweeds and cactus. The victims, Dorothy Gibson, was twenty three, divorced, lived in a small house at two two five South Coleman. Barbara Lemons also twenty three and divorced. We're going to get back to Barbara in a second.

J D.

J D.

Cantrell was married, a truck driver and a father. JD was shot eight times. The first question that popped into my head is what were the women doing during this just barrage of gunfire. They had to be petrified. The other questions is did JD know them in some way? Was there somebody that had injured their tire before and forced the flat tire. People are normally killed for three reasons, sex, money, and revenge. What doesn't appear anybody was robbed, doesn't appear anybody was sexually assaulted, so that leaves us with revenge. The best place to start this case is with the victimology. The more we know about the victims, the clearer a motive may come. Once you have a motive, it'll lead you quite possibly to who today we are so fortunate to have with us, Amber Clemens Bean. She is Barbara Ann's paternal granddaughter. So let me tell y'all a little bit about Amber. She will tell you she's shy. She'll tell you she don't want to talk in public, she doesn't want to address big crowds. But we have the opportunity to present this case at crime con and y'all, she put all that fear aside, she put all the trepidation away, and for her grandmother, she addressed a packed room at Crime cons just brilliantly and flawlessly as I've ever seen. It was straight from her heart. She didn't have a note card in her hand, and it was so well received because y'all know that audience. We're all like minded people. We want to help, we want to help solve a case. And Amber, I just think you did such a remarkable job. I just want to tell you again it was amazing to watch you. Now. Amber, you know triple homicides are rare. In those cases, you have to do three separate victimologies, and then you've got to look at connections between those three people, if any, and then you have to go back and look at each person and try to determine was there anybody in their background that would want to kill them? And then were the other two collateral damage or we're all three targets or just two targets. And that's what I see here in this case. So case number nine forty seven, Dorothy Gibson, Barbara Lemons, and JD. Cantrell. What are the connections for your grandmother to either one of the other victims?

Cantrell was married, a truck driver and a father. JD was shot eight times. The first question that popped into my head is what were the women doing during this just barrage of gunfire. They had to be petrified. The other questions is did JD know them in some way? Was there somebody that had injured their tire before and forced the flat tire. People are normally killed for three reasons, sex, money, and revenge. What doesn't appear anybody was robbed, doesn't appear anybody was sexually assaulted, so that leaves us with revenge. The best place to start this case is with the victimology. The more we know about the victims, the clearer a motive may come. Once you have a motive, it'll lead you quite possibly to who today we are so fortunate to have with us, Amber Clemens Bean. She is Barbara Ann's paternal granddaughter. So let me tell y'all a little bit about Amber. She will tell you she's shy. She'll tell you she don't want to talk in public, she doesn't want to address big crowds. But we have the opportunity to present this case at crime con and y'all, she put all that fear aside, she put all the trepidation away, and for her grandmother, she addressed a packed room at Crime cons just brilliantly and flawlessly as I've ever seen. It was straight from her heart. She didn't have a note card in her hand, and it was so well received because y'all know that audience. We're all like minded people. We want to help, we want to help solve a case. And Amber, I just think you did such a remarkable job. I just want to tell you again it was amazing to watch you. Now. Amber, you know triple homicides are rare. In those cases, you have to do three separate victimologies, and then you've got to look at connections between those three people, if any, and then you have to go back and look at each person and try to determine was there anybody in their background that would want to kill them? And then were the other two collateral damage or we're all three targets or just two targets. And that's what I see here in this case. So case number nine forty seven, Dorothy Gibson, Barbara Lemons, and JD. Cantrell. What are the connections for your grandmother to either one of the other victims?

She was friends with Dorothy. I don't know that she ever had any connection with JD. Cantrell. We were always told he was possibly just collateral damage. There's been different there's different theories. One of them is that he was already on the scene helping the women with car trouble when the assailant came upon the scene. He died at the scene and the women were transported. The other one is that the assailant was already there and the truck driver stopped to help the women with and he was killed and then the women were taken elsewhere. We do know that the women were taken elsewhere, and it sounds like he was possibly going to let them go because they were out of the car and they were shot while they were running, or at least one of them was shot while they were running.

She was friends with Dorothy. I don't know that she ever had any connection with JD. Cantrell. We were always told he was possibly just collateral damage. There's been different there's different theories. One of them is that he was already on the scene helping the women with car trouble when the assailant came upon the scene. He died at the scene and the women were transported. The other one is that the assailant was already there and the truck driver stopped to help the women with and he was killed and then the women were taken elsewhere. We do know that the women were taken elsewhere, and it sounds like he was possibly going to let them go because they were out of the car and they were shot while they were running, or at least one of them was shot while they were running.

That's what it looks like to me. The one crime scene photo that we're able to see, that's exactly what it looks like, that they were running. I don't know that he was ever going to quote let them go, but he certainly was not going to shoot them in his car, right.

That's what it looks like to me. The one crime scene photo that we're able to see, that's exactly what it looks like, that they were running. I don't know that he was ever going to quote let them go, but he certainly was not going to shoot them in his car, right.

He let them out of the car.

He let them out of the car.

Right. So the original scene, it's a nineteen fifty two Plymouth and the tire is off the car, so one would assume, you know, back then in nineteen fifty seven, that a man did stop to help them. There was nothing on the women's hands like grease or you know, any type of It didn't look like they had been changing a tire.

Right. So the original scene, it's a nineteen fifty two Plymouth and the tire is off the car, so one would assume, you know, back then in nineteen fifty seven, that a man did stop to help them. There was nothing on the women's hands like grease or you know, any type of It didn't look like they had been changing a tire.

No, it sounds like he probably was right.

No, it sounds like he probably was right.

And it was so early in the morning, I mean you're talking about four am essentially. So JD. Leaves his house about three ten, goes and picks up the rig at work and then is driving when his rig is pulled off the side of the road. The engine idle and the lights are on, so he clearly saw I think the two women. And the reason is, I believe if he saw a man changing a tire or he'd kept driving right. So I think he saw the two women. And I think the assailant came up a little after. I believe now maybe he would have stopped to help another man that time of morning, but I'm just saying I think the chances are better than it was two women. Your time frame in the very beginning is tight. You're not talking about a lot of time. It went by right now before that. If you're working backwards at a crime scene, which is what we do, so we know what happened at four am, and if you're looking backwards, the two women were doing what The night.

And it was so early in the morning, I mean you're talking about four am essentially. So JD. Leaves his house about three ten, goes and picks up the rig at work and then is driving when his rig is pulled off the side of the road. The engine idle and the lights are on, so he clearly saw I think the two women. And the reason is, I believe if he saw a man changing a tire or he'd kept driving right. So I think he saw the two women. And I think the assailant came up a little after. I believe now maybe he would have stopped to help another man that time of morning, but I'm just saying I think the chances are better than it was two women. Your time frame in the very beginning is tight. You're not talking about a lot of time. It went by right now before that. If you're working backwards at a crime scene, which is what we do, so we know what happened at four am, and if you're looking backwards, the two women were doing what The night.

Before, they had gone to a bar or a club essentially to hear a singer, Lefty Frizoe perform, and they had a friend with them that they had dropped off after prior to this happening, and then they from my understanding is after they dropped their friend off, they had gone to a cafe for something to eat.

Before, they had gone to a bar or a club essentially to hear a singer, Lefty Frizoe perform, and they had a friend with them that they had dropped off after prior to this happening, and then they from my understanding is after they dropped their friend off, they had gone to a cafe for something to eat.

They had a male friend that they had dropped off, so they drove him all the way home and were coming back and stopped to get something to eat. Now, right, This is critical to me because a lot of times, if you were to ask any waiter or waitress about a particular shift, they're probably not going to remember that. Many people correct, but this waitress did. She did, and what did she remember.

They had a male friend that they had dropped off, so they drove him all the way home and were coming back and stopped to get something to eat. Now, right, This is critical to me because a lot of times, if you were to ask any waiter or waitress about a particular shift, they're probably not going to remember that. Many people correct, but this waitress did. She did, and what did she remember.

She remembered there was a guy there who was watching the women. He ordered, I believe, a salad, but he didn't finish it, and when they left, he followed them out.

She remembered there was a guy there who was watching the women. He ordered, I believe, a salad, but he didn't finish it, and when they left, he followed them out.

This waitress not only remembered what the man ordered, she remembered what he was wearing. He gave her that kind of feeling that the way he's watching those women is just not right.

This waitress not only remembered what the man ordered, she remembered what he was wearing. He gave her that kind of feeling that the way he's watching those women is just not right.

Yeah, she felt that it was off. It kind of gave her an uneasy feeling.

Yeah, she felt that it was off. It kind of gave her an uneasy feeling.

So they had been out, they had been having a great time with a male friend, so they probably felt safe there. But once they dropped him off, they went to the diner alone and then carried on their trip headed back to their residence. Something happened between the diner and when the tire went flat, no doubt about it. And it looks like JD. Cantrell literally was just a good Samaritan.

So they had been out, they had been having a great time with a male friend, so they probably felt safe there. But once they dropped him off, they went to the diner alone and then carried on their trip headed back to their residence. Something happened between the diner and when the tire went flat, no doubt about it. And it looks like JD. Cantrell literally was just a good Samaritan.

Yes, what.

Yes, what.

Was found at the crime scene of the women.

Was found at the crime scene of the women.

Everything was in the car. There was extra pairs of shoes, their purses, everything was intact. They don't believe it was robbery because nothing was stolen. Everything was in the car.

Everything was in the car. There was extra pairs of shoes, their purses, everything was intact. They don't believe it was robbery because nothing was stolen. Everything was in the car.

Okay, so pursa's shoes, ID wallet's keys, everything's in the Plymouth and the original crime scene O. Correct. JD is shot eight times.

Okay, so pursa's shoes, ID wallet's keys, everything's in the Plymouth and the original crime scene O. Correct. JD is shot eight times.

I believe it was eight. Yes, they said there was some type of a struggle, but yes, he was shot about eight times.

I believe it was eight. Yes, they said there was some type of a struggle, but yes, he was shot about eight times.

Now, it don't take eight times to kill somebody, and it doesn't take eight separate shots to stop a threat. So if this person brandished a weapon and a struggle ensued, he didn't have to shoot him eight times. So that's a large number that we need to file away and just say, hey, that's kind of excessive.

Now, it don't take eight times to kill somebody, and it doesn't take eight separate shots to stop a threat. So if this person brandished a weapon and a struggle ensued, he didn't have to shoot him eight times. So that's a large number that we need to file away and just say, hey, that's kind of excessive.

We'll just say that.

We'll just say that.

Then the women are taken from that scene and driven out Highway two thirty eight. Now they're about thirty minutes from the original crime scene.

Then the women are taken from that scene and driven out Highway two thirty eight. Now they're about thirty minutes from the original crime scene.

Correct.

Correct.

Yes, Now, I just want everybody to think, two women that have just witnessed a murder are now put into a vehicle by the assailant for thirty minutes. That had to be chaotic at best. They had to be screaming, crying, worried about what was happening. So for thirty minutes, that to me is an incredible amount of time that one person is controlling two people and then looking for a secondary location to either let them go or to murder them.

Yes, Now, I just want everybody to think, two women that have just witnessed a murder are now put into a vehicle by the assailant for thirty minutes. That had to be chaotic at best. They had to be screaming, crying, worried about what was happening. So for thirty minutes, that to me is an incredible amount of time that one person is controlling two people and then looking for a secondary location to either let them go or to murder them.

And if you could see where they were taking there was a lot of talk that they thought that it was somebody that lived in the air or sorry that somebody, that it was somebody the essay, that was somebody that was passing through the area. If you could see, I've been there, if you could see in person where this is. It's very far off a road out in the middle of nowhere, there's and it's not something you would know was there if you didn't live in the area, right, So it just makes me think that it was someone that knew the area well, lived there maybe or had a family there, or had lived there at one point, just because of where it was.

And if you could see where they were taking there was a lot of talk that they thought that it was somebody that lived in the air or sorry that somebody, that it was somebody the essay, that was somebody that was passing through the area. If you could see, I've been there, if you could see in person where this is. It's very far off a road out in the middle of nowhere, there's and it's not something you would know was there if you didn't live in the area, right, So it just makes me think that it was someone that knew the area well, lived there maybe or had a family there, or had lived there at one point, just because of where it was.

Well, I can tell you this, they absolutely knew that area because he managed to do this in the dark. Yes, so he found this location without visibility. He knew it, no doubt in my mind. So when the women are found, they are twenty yards apart. I believe one was shot almost immediately, and I believe the second one was running.

Well, I can tell you this, they absolutely knew that area because he managed to do this in the dark. Yes, so he found this location without visibility. He knew it, no doubt in my mind. So when the women are found, they are twenty yards apart. I believe one was shot almost immediately, and I believe the second one was running.

Yes, they think.

Yes, they think.

I believe.

I believe.

I was always told it was Barbara Ann that was running, but I'm not one hundred percent sure. They were both found fully clothed. Yes, about twenty yards apart from each other. There's no sign. They don't think there was sexual assault just because they were they were fully clothed and nothing was missing. I don't really know what they think that the motive was. I've never really been told that other than they don't think it was robbery.

I was always told it was Barbara Ann that was running, but I'm not one hundred percent sure. They were both found fully clothed. Yes, about twenty yards apart from each other. There's no sign. They don't think there was sexual assault just because they were they were fully clothed and nothing was missing. I don't really know what they think that the motive was. I've never really been told that other than they don't think it was robbery.

Yeah, I would agree with that because nothing was taken, not the car, not money, not jewelry, not purses, nothing, nothing of value was taken off JD.

Yeah, I would agree with that because nothing was taken, not the car, not money, not jewelry, not purses, nothing, nothing of value was taken off JD.

Right, everything was there. His wallet was left there. We don't know what the motive was. I've never really been told like, this is what we think the motive is. They just that they don't think it was robbery and they don't think it was like a sexual assault because there wasn't any.

Right, everything was there. His wallet was left there. We don't know what the motive was. I've never really been told like, this is what we think the motive is. They just that they don't think it was robbery and they don't think it was like a sexual assault because there wasn't any.

And if you'd think about JD being shot eight to ten times and there were five shotgun shells found at the scene, this is somebody that was prepared to murder three people, and did.

And if you'd think about JD being shot eight to ten times and there were five shotgun shells found at the scene, this is somebody that was prepared to murder three people, and did.

I don't know. I guess said if it was premeditated or how he picked his victims, if it was random. I don't know that they ever determined if it was someone that knew them or if it was random.

I don't know. I guess said if it was premeditated or how he picked his victims, if it was random. I don't know that they ever determined if it was someone that knew them or if it was random.

Now the women, they both had separate homes, but they did try to rent an apartment together in another town. Yes, and they wanted to get jobs at JC Penny.

Now the women, they both had separate homes, but they did try to rent an apartment together in another town. Yes, and they wanted to get jobs at JC Penny.

Correct, they had applied there.

Correct, they had applied there.

Does anything there stand out for you, like why did they go to another town and why JC Penny? Like were they trying to literally start new lives?

Does anything there stand out for you, like why did they go to another town and why JC Penny? Like were they trying to literally start new lives?

I think maybe after the divorce, they were just trying to start fresh somewhere. You know, Hobbs is a small area, it's not real big, but that's kind of my theory is maybe they were just trying to get a fresh start and raise their kids. And well I don't think Dorothy didn't have children, but my grandma did. Barbaran did. So I think she was just trying to raise her children and start fresh in a new area.

I think maybe after the divorce, they were just trying to start fresh somewhere. You know, Hobbs is a small area, it's not real big, but that's kind of my theory is maybe they were just trying to get a fresh start and raise their kids. And well I don't think Dorothy didn't have children, but my grandma did. Barbaran did. So I think she was just trying to raise her children and start fresh in a new area.

I mean they were both young, they were only twenty three correct, Yes, And maybe if they thought, you know, if we get an apartment together, you know, Dorothy could have helped Barbara Ann with the children. Maybe they could have gotten separate shifts so somebody was always home. I mean, it might have been a great setup where they could have helped each other. You know, Barbara would be paying half the bills, so Dorothy would be in better shape financially. Right, you know, there's there's worse ideas, you know, but then you have to look at these two women are friends. But could one of the women have been a target?

I mean they were both young, they were only twenty three correct, Yes, And maybe if they thought, you know, if we get an apartment together, you know, Dorothy could have helped Barbara Ann with the children. Maybe they could have gotten separate shifts so somebody was always home. I mean, it might have been a great setup where they could have helped each other. You know, Barbara would be paying half the bills, so Dorothy would be in better shape financially. Right, you know, there's there's worse ideas, you know, but then you have to look at these two women are friends. But could one of the women have been a target?

Yeah, we always told that one of the women was, that one of them was a target. We just didn't know why or which one was the target, and that the other the truck driver and the other women were just collateral damage. They happened to be there, wrong place, wrong time, and.

Yeah, we always told that one of the women was, that one of them was a target. We just didn't know why or which one was the target, and that the other the truck driver and the other women were just collateral damage. They happened to be there, wrong place, wrong time, and.

Both ex husbands were looked at.

Both ex husbands were looked at.

Yes, everybody was looked at at the time.

Yes, everybody was looked at at the time.

Because Dorothy was shot in the ear, well that seems like a kill shot, whereas Barbara ann was hit in the arm and some other places. So you might on paper think Dorothy might be a target. And law enforcement has told you what about this case and looking into this case.

Because Dorothy was shot in the ear, well that seems like a kill shot, whereas Barbara ann was hit in the arm and some other places. So you might on paper think Dorothy might be a target. And law enforcement has told you what about this case and looking into this case.

Many years back, they did tell me they had the name of a suspect, but they couldn't tell me who the suspect was. The person is deceased, and I said, well, why can't you tell me? And they said, because the person is protected. And I said, okay, but what about her? What about the three victims and their protection? When do they get that because they were killed and we've been fighting all this time for answers, and I had people write letters and telling him that, you know, once the person is deceased, it's okay to tell her the name, and they still wouldn't do it. They I found out that the police were the sheriff and the captain were running against each other for the office. So I thought, oh, maybe that's why I'm not getting answers, because the captain wanted to thought about telling me, but then the sheriff said, no, I do know that. At the time, the captain told somebody, well, it doesn't matter because everybody's dead, and I thought, well, no, not everybody's dead. We're all still here fighting. We're still here fighting for answers, you know, sixty eight years later.

Many years back, they did tell me they had the name of a suspect, but they couldn't tell me who the suspect was. The person is deceased, and I said, well, why can't you tell me? And they said, because the person is protected. And I said, okay, but what about her? What about the three victims and their protection? When do they get that because they were killed and we've been fighting all this time for answers, and I had people write letters and telling him that, you know, once the person is deceased, it's okay to tell her the name, and they still wouldn't do it. They I found out that the police were the sheriff and the captain were running against each other for the office. So I thought, oh, maybe that's why I'm not getting answers, because the captain wanted to thought about telling me, but then the sheriff said, no, I do know that. At the time, the captain told somebody, well, it doesn't matter because everybody's dead, and I thought, well, no, not everybody's dead. We're all still here fighting. We're still here fighting for answers, you know, sixty eight years later.

Not everybody's dead, that's right.

Not everybody's dead, that's right.

And now there.

And now there.

I know.

I know.

At the time when the murder happened, they were bringing back a suspect from Texas to question him, and a new sheriff was elected, and that sheriff fired all the deputies, so that deputy that was bringing that suspect back from Texas how to let him go. So he was never questioned when.

At the time when the murder happened, they were bringing back a suspect from Texas to question him, and a new sheriff was elected, and that sheriff fired all the deputies, so that deputy that was bringing that suspect back from Texas how to let him go. So he was never questioned when.

Some people say, well, it's been so long and you know, nobody's living anymore that went through it, But that's not true because you went through it generationally, because you lived with your dad having nightmares and not being able to function, and not trust in people and not wanting to go off by self somewhere. I mean, this wasn't something that happened when he was three and he wasn't aware of it by the age of seven. He knew it his whole life. He lived it his whole life, and therefore so do you you in a very real way.

Some people say, well, it's been so long and you know, nobody's living anymore that went through it, But that's not true because you went through it generationally, because you lived with your dad having nightmares and not being able to function, and not trust in people and not wanting to go off by self somewhere. I mean, this wasn't something that happened when he was three and he wasn't aware of it by the age of seven. He knew it his whole life. He lived it his whole life, and therefore so do you you in a very real way.

He lived his whole life. And I think essentially that's maybe why part of the reason they separated him and his sister is the thought process was if they're separate, nobody can find them. But he lived his life afraid that they were going to find out he was her child and he was going to become after they were going to come for him next. And I've talked to the daughters of the man that was married to Dorothy they're not her daughters, but he had children later and he was very much that way too, like very protective, very had to know where they were all the time. You need to be home, I need to know where you are. And I'm sure that's an after effect of his wife being murdered.

He lived his whole life. And I think essentially that's maybe why part of the reason they separated him and his sister is the thought process was if they're separate, nobody can find them. But he lived his life afraid that they were going to find out he was her child and he was going to become after they were going to come for him next. And I've talked to the daughters of the man that was married to Dorothy they're not her daughters, but he had children later and he was very much that way too, like very protective, very had to know where they were all the time. You need to be home, I need to know where you are. And I'm sure that's an after effect of his wife being murdered.

Of course, and especially in a small town, because everybody's got to be looking at everybody, anybody that had an affair with one of the women, anybody that dated the women before or after their divorces. You know, everybody is suspect, right. You know, did somebody that she didn't marry become a stalker? You know, did the ex husband have somebody that you know, thought they were going to get back at her? Like there's you never know, Like there's all kinds of stories that are going to circulate, There's all kinds of rumors that are going to happen, but the bottom line is you don't know. Because the other twist is the way JD. Cantrell was treated. Was he a target? He was certainly shot more times than the women combined.

Of course, and especially in a small town, because everybody's got to be looking at everybody, anybody that had an affair with one of the women, anybody that dated the women before or after their divorces. You know, everybody is suspect, right. You know, did somebody that she didn't marry become a stalker? You know, did the ex husband have somebody that you know, thought they were going to get back at her? Like there's you never know, Like there's all kinds of stories that are going to circulate, There's all kinds of rumors that are going to happen, but the bottom line is you don't know. Because the other twist is the way JD. Cantrell was treated. Was he a target? He was certainly shot more times than the women combined.

Right, And there was a struggle with him, and.

Right, And there was a struggle with him, and.

There was a struggle, So it wasn't like somebody just came up and shot him from a distance.

There was a struggle, So it wasn't like somebody just came up and shot him from a distance.

Yeah, they were. It was up close close range.

Yeah, they were. It was up close close range.

So again with triple homicides, and you're looking at victimology, you're going to look at the age of all the folks. You're going to look at their marital status, You're going to look at where they worked, what they had been doing the months leading up to the murder, you know, And this is where the people in the community and family and co workers can be so helpful. What do we know? And that's how we found out about J. C. Penny. And then they were able to track down the actual applications that they filled out that Dorothy and Barbara, you know, they put addresses down, they put why they were looking for this employment, their past employment, and I think that is great information for law enforcement.

So again with triple homicides, and you're looking at victimology, you're going to look at the age of all the folks. You're going to look at their marital status, You're going to look at where they worked, what they had been doing the months leading up to the murder, you know, And this is where the people in the community and family and co workers can be so helpful. What do we know? And that's how we found out about J. C. Penny. And then they were able to track down the actual applications that they filled out that Dorothy and Barbara, you know, they put addresses down, they put why they were looking for this employment, their past employment, and I think that is great information for law enforcement.

Definitely.

Definitely.

Yeah, you know, you have not stopped in your investigation. You have not been satisfied with the information that you've ascertained so far, and you recently were able to see some things in the case file that you had never been shown.

Yeah, you know, you have not stopped in your investigation. You have not been satisfied with the information that you've ascertained so far, and you recently were able to see some things in the case file that you had never been shown.

Before right when I went to New Mexico.

Before right when I went to New Mexico.

Yes, I mean, I think that's one of those things that here's the bottom line for any young detective listening to this show. You can take a complete murder box that you have in your office and you can look at every single piece of evidence in it. That does not mean you understand it. So if there is a birthday card, if there is a receipt, if there is a photograph, ask the family, ask friends. They may can add to what that means or signifies that you will never know. So when Amber is able to look through that box and she has all the stories that she's been told for sixty years, some of those things may leap out at her. Whereas law enforcement might say, oh, that's just a Valentine's Day card, it's meaningless. It's not meaningless. A telegram is not meaningless. A receipt for a pair of shoes is not meaningless. So again I think what you're doing and going back and sitting with the detective and looking through the murder box, your cell is so important in everybody understanding who Barbara Lemons was.

Yes, I mean, I think that's one of those things that here's the bottom line for any young detective listening to this show. You can take a complete murder box that you have in your office and you can look at every single piece of evidence in it. That does not mean you understand it. So if there is a birthday card, if there is a receipt, if there is a photograph, ask the family, ask friends. They may can add to what that means or signifies that you will never know. So when Amber is able to look through that box and she has all the stories that she's been told for sixty years, some of those things may leap out at her. Whereas law enforcement might say, oh, that's just a Valentine's Day card, it's meaningless. It's not meaningless. A telegram is not meaningless. A receipt for a pair of shoes is not meaningless. So again I think what you're doing and going back and sitting with the detective and looking through the murder box, your cell is so important in everybody understanding who Barbara Lemons was.

It was just within the last two years that I was able to go there and see the items they invited me there. I had actually written a letter to the newspaper and the police department requesting that they reopened the case because they wouldn't tell me names, They wouldn't tell me suspects, They wouldn't tell me anything. So I said, well, then I can only assume that it's not solved and I want it reopened. So they reopened it and they said I could come there. I went on a road trip to New Mexico and was able to meet with them and view everything they had, which was a lot go through. There is, I think, stuff that's missing that they can't find, like evidence, but I don't know that she'll trying to find it. They had a lot of stuff that they said probably could have given back to been given back a long time, like they still had the truck driver's wallet. Just a lot of things that probably could have been given back to the families a long time ago. Mostly that, But there's just a lot of back and forth and not giving us answers, and just sixty eight years of continuing to fight. Now it's my turn. I've fought for a long time. I actually found out when I was in elementary school that she had been murdered. I didn't know until I was in elementary school. We were watching, oddly enough, we were watching unsolved mysteries, and my mom said that we should call and see if they would feature the show. But you know, we were in elementary school that my mom says we didn't show much interest back then, and I don't think it. We just we were kids. But that's yeah, it was probably like I mean, maybe elementary school, so maybe fifth grade, fourth grade when they found out.

It was just within the last two years that I was able to go there and see the items they invited me there. I had actually written a letter to the newspaper and the police department requesting that they reopened the case because they wouldn't tell me names, They wouldn't tell me suspects, They wouldn't tell me anything. So I said, well, then I can only assume that it's not solved and I want it reopened. So they reopened it and they said I could come there. I went on a road trip to New Mexico and was able to meet with them and view everything they had, which was a lot go through. There is, I think, stuff that's missing that they can't find, like evidence, but I don't know that she'll trying to find it. They had a lot of stuff that they said probably could have given back to been given back a long time, like they still had the truck driver's wallet. Just a lot of things that probably could have been given back to the families a long time ago. Mostly that, But there's just a lot of back and forth and not giving us answers, and just sixty eight years of continuing to fight. Now it's my turn. I've fought for a long time. I actually found out when I was in elementary school that she had been murdered. I didn't know until I was in elementary school. We were watching, oddly enough, we were watching unsolved mysteries, and my mom said that we should call and see if they would feature the show. But you know, we were in elementary school that my mom says we didn't show much interest back then, and I don't think it. We just we were kids. But that's yeah, it was probably like I mean, maybe elementary school, so maybe fifth grade, fourth grade when they found out.

Well, well, that's why I said sixty years for you, because I figured you were about eight or so, even though I knew it had been sixty eight years, but still for sixty years. This is something that you have carried with you in some form or fashion. I had a chance to speak with the lead detective now on the case, and you know, he was great to talk to me and was very open about things. You know, but like I told you, after I spoke to him, you know, he's not going to share everything, and he's not going to name a name. Even if I gave him a suspect name, he wasn't going to say yes or no to it. If you're going to keep information close to the vest, then there needs to be action taken by you that it is clear to the family that this is still trying to be solved. If you're just keeping it close to the vest, then you don't want to talk about it because you're afraid a family of a suspect is going to get upset. That's not the right call.

Well, well, that's why I said sixty years for you, because I figured you were about eight or so, even though I knew it had been sixty eight years, but still for sixty years. This is something that you have carried with you in some form or fashion. I had a chance to speak with the lead detective now on the case, and you know, he was great to talk to me and was very open about things. You know, but like I told you, after I spoke to him, you know, he's not going to share everything, and he's not going to name a name. Even if I gave him a suspect name, he wasn't going to say yes or no to it. If you're going to keep information close to the vest, then there needs to be action taken by you that it is clear to the family that this is still trying to be solved. If you're just keeping it close to the vest, then you don't want to talk about it because you're afraid a family of a suspect is going to get upset. That's not the right call.

And I think that was always their thought process, even back when I was dealing with the previous captain, was well, we don't want someone to come after us. We're going to name this person, and then if it gets out there and they find out, we don't want to be pursuant to a lawsuit. And that's how they feel now. As they were like, well, we have to try to they don't because they told me they had the name of somebody, and they told me that there would be a press conference that I would be invited to when they named the person, but they didn't want the name released because they were trying to pin down family and notify them first. But I just I left there thinking that I wasn't getting the complete truth from them.

And I think that was always their thought process, even back when I was dealing with the previous captain, was well, we don't want someone to come after us. We're going to name this person, and then if it gets out there and they find out, we don't want to be pursuant to a lawsuit. And that's how they feel now. As they were like, well, we have to try to they don't because they told me they had the name of somebody, and they told me that there would be a press conference that I would be invited to when they named the person, but they didn't want the name released because they were trying to pin down family and notify them first. But I just I left there thinking that I wasn't getting the complete truth from them.

You know, when I spoke with the lead detective, we offered help with experts or private labs, anything he might need. I am completely convinced that the assailant to get those two women in the car had to grab at least one or both of them and shove them. So you know, you never know. I mean, stranger things have happened, and they've been able to get DNA off more unusual items than that from a cold case. It'd be worth a shot to me. But you know, I think back about our time at crime Con this past year, and remember, I gotta tell you. Leading up to crime Con, you were like, I don't know, I'm not a public speaker. I'm not sure I'm going to talk. I mean, I'm gonna be there and I want to support, you know, my grandmother, but I just don't count on me for getting on stage. No problem, it's all gonna be good. It's gonna be great, honey. When you got there, you were so fantastic. And here's what I think resonated for me more than anything. You went out there and there was a sea of people. That room was packed amber wall to wall, people that you don't know, spotlight on you, and you took that microphone and spoke so sweetly about your daddy, about your grandmama, who you never even got a chance to meet. How it changed your life, the things your daddy suffered through, and that audience connected with you so profoundly that you received I don't know six or seven minutes standing ovation. I mean it, and I was like, not bad with somebody that wasn't gonna talk. But you know, I also think as a parent, you know, your daddy's got to be so proud of you for what you've done. I mean, you overcame some fear, you traveled a long distance, you're still traveling, You're still trying to get the word out, you're building a website, and I just admire what you're doing again for a grandmother you never had a chance to meet.

You know, when I spoke with the lead detective, we offered help with experts or private labs, anything he might need. I am completely convinced that the assailant to get those two women in the car had to grab at least one or both of them and shove them. So you know, you never know. I mean, stranger things have happened, and they've been able to get DNA off more unusual items than that from a cold case. It'd be worth a shot to me. But you know, I think back about our time at crime Con this past year, and remember, I gotta tell you. Leading up to crime Con, you were like, I don't know, I'm not a public speaker. I'm not sure I'm going to talk. I mean, I'm gonna be there and I want to support, you know, my grandmother, but I just don't count on me for getting on stage. No problem, it's all gonna be good. It's gonna be great, honey. When you got there, you were so fantastic. And here's what I think resonated for me more than anything. You went out there and there was a sea of people. That room was packed amber wall to wall, people that you don't know, spotlight on you, and you took that microphone and spoke so sweetly about your daddy, about your grandmama, who you never even got a chance to meet. How it changed your life, the things your daddy suffered through, and that audience connected with you so profoundly that you received I don't know six or seven minutes standing ovation. I mean it, and I was like, not bad with somebody that wasn't gonna talk. But you know, I also think as a parent, you know, your daddy's got to be so proud of you for what you've done. I mean, you overcame some fear, you traveled a long distance, you're still traveling, You're still trying to get the word out, you're building a website, and I just admire what you're doing again for a grandmother you never had a chance to meet.

Thank you. It's definitely been along road and it's definitely not over. We will keep the word out there. It's come down to now me and my cousins just trying to fight. My mom's a good supporter.

Thank you. It's definitely been along road and it's definitely not over. We will keep the word out there. It's come down to now me and my cousins just trying to fight. My mom's a good supporter.

Oh yeah, she was right with you, honey.

Oh yeah, she was right with you, honey.

She keeps me on it. The days of the times I get frustrated and I think, gosh, I'm never going to get answers, and why am I doing this? She says, Nope, We're going to continue to fight and we're going to keep going. I want people to know that these lives mattered. My grandmother was a mom, and a sister and a daughter and a grandmother that never got to know her grandchildren. There's seven of us that she never got to know. She has great grandchildren. The truck driver he never got to see his kids grow up. He has grandchildren he never got to know. And they're more than just faces. They're more than just victims. They were people that meant a lot to a lot of people, and past generation to pass on not knowing what happened. But we will continue to fight, and we will continue to try to get answers, enclosures for our families, and if it takes every last breath I got, I'm going to continue to fight for her and continue to try to get answers from somebody, because somebody knows something. You don't just kill three people in cold blood and disappear and not say something, not talk to somebody. So there's answers somewhere, we just have to look under the right rocks to find them.

She keeps me on it. The days of the times I get frustrated and I think, gosh, I'm never going to get answers, and why am I doing this? She says, Nope, We're going to continue to fight and we're going to keep going. I want people to know that these lives mattered. My grandmother was a mom, and a sister and a daughter and a grandmother that never got to know her grandchildren. There's seven of us that she never got to know. She has great grandchildren. The truck driver he never got to see his kids grow up. He has grandchildren he never got to know. And they're more than just faces. They're more than just victims. They were people that meant a lot to a lot of people, and past generation to pass on not knowing what happened. But we will continue to fight, and we will continue to try to get answers, enclosures for our families, and if it takes every last breath I got, I'm going to continue to fight for her and continue to try to get answers from somebody, because somebody knows something. You don't just kill three people in cold blood and disappear and not say something, not talk to somebody. So there's answers somewhere, we just have to look under the right rocks to find them.

That was perfectly stated. And I'll tell you you know, I don't believe in coincidences in my job. I just don't. And there are so many things here that it just looks like, oh, that's just a coincidence that JD showed up. It's a coincidence they dropped a friend off it's a coincidence. The waitress noticed somebody. I just don't I don't buy it. And you and I are very fortunate on this case. Because y'all there's another episode coming and that's going to be with Paul Holes, the investigator that y'all all know and love. Amber's met him. Now, Amber's a fan. He is awesome, and he's agreed to help out. And he's one of those folks too that can help me reach out to law enforcement and have a conversation to say, look, we're just here to help. And Paul has had some tremendous luck, as you all know, with the Golden State Killer, but that ain't the only case he's cracked. So he has joined us in this investigation and so we will see what we are able to do. I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I always do with a quote. Justice is what love sounds like when it speaks in public. Michael Eric Dyson. I'm a Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.

That was perfectly stated. And I'll tell you you know, I don't believe in coincidences in my job. I just don't. And there are so many things here that it just looks like, oh, that's just a coincidence that JD showed up. It's a coincidence they dropped a friend off it's a coincidence. The waitress noticed somebody. I just don't I don't buy it. And you and I are very fortunate on this case. Because y'all there's another episode coming and that's going to be with Paul Holes, the investigator that y'all all know and love. Amber's met him. Now, Amber's a fan. He is awesome, and he's agreed to help out. And he's one of those folks too that can help me reach out to law enforcement and have a conversation to say, look, we're just here to help. And Paul has had some tremendous luck, as you all know, with the Golden State Killer, but that ain't the only case he's cracked. So he has joined us in this investigation and so we will see what we are able to do. I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I always do with a quote. Justice is what love sounds like when it speaks in public. Michael Eric Dyson. I'm a Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.