Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati. This week one goal, two technologies, three times the renewables. It's day five of cop and it's been busy around here. Over the weekend, we heard leaders from more than one hundred and fifty countries wanting to secure a more ambitious deal on tackling climate change. My country is experiencing devastating impacts of climate change.

Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati. This week one goal, two technologies, three times the renewables. It's day five of cop and it's been busy around here. Over the weekend, we heard leaders from more than one hundred and fifty countries wanting to secure a more ambitious deal on tackling climate change. My country is experiencing devastating impacts of climate change.

This crisis must never be seen as a distant threat. Let's make this called the first one where the benefits of our concrete commitments exceed our excuses and the carbon footprints of the planes we arrived on.

This crisis must never be seen as a distant threat. Let's make this called the first one where the benefits of our concrete commitments exceed our excuses and the carbon footprints of the planes we arrived on.

There have already been some significant successes, include the announcement of half a billion dollars is set up the Loss and Damage Fund, and of course there have been many many side deals which you can read about on Bloomberg dot com for free during these two weeks of coal. But a lot still remains to be agreed on, including the goal to triple renewables globally by twenty thirty. If it's achieved, electricity will be the first economic sector to get on track for net zero by twenty fifty. Currently, the world has about three point six terraworts of renewables installed that took us more than two decades to build. Tripling it would mean getting to eleven terrrawarts in just seven years. That is a lot of solar panels and wind turbines to deploy. And there are other challenges like building out battery storage and grids all around the world. So how exactly are we going to do it? To find out, I spoke with Jenny Chase, one of the lead authors of a new report by Bloomberg ne EF. It looks at everything that is needed to achieve the goal. Jenny is being a lead solar analyst and the author of Solar Power Finance Without the Jargon, a second edition of which will be published early next year. Jenny, welcome back to the show.

There have already been some significant successes, include the announcement of half a billion dollars is set up the Loss and Damage Fund, and of course there have been many many side deals which you can read about on Bloomberg dot com for free during these two weeks of coal. But a lot still remains to be agreed on, including the goal to triple renewables globally by twenty thirty. If it's achieved, electricity will be the first economic sector to get on track for net zero by twenty fifty. Currently, the world has about three point six terraworts of renewables installed that took us more than two decades to build. Tripling it would mean getting to eleven terrrawarts in just seven years. That is a lot of solar panels and wind turbines to deploy. And there are other challenges like building out battery storage and grids all around the world. So how exactly are we going to do it? To find out, I spoke with Jenny Chase, one of the lead authors of a new report by Bloomberg ne EF. It looks at everything that is needed to achieve the goal. Jenny is being a lead solar analyst and the author of Solar Power Finance Without the Jargon, a second edition of which will be published early next year. Jenny, welcome back to the show.

Nice to be here at SHAD.

Nice to be here at SHAD.

We're going to talk about tripling renewable energy by twenty thirty. Let's start with the basics before we triple renewables. Where are we right now? What is our starting point?

We're going to talk about tripling renewable energy by twenty thirty. Let's start with the basics before we triple renewables. Where are we right now? What is our starting point?

As of the end of twenty twenty two, we have about three point six terrawatts of renewable energy and this is wind, solar, big and small, hydro geothermal by a mass, and marine and tidle. Now the bit of that that anyone expects to drastically increase is a solar and wind section. And it's honestly great that we can even talk about tripling renewables or talk about eleven terrawatts of renewables, which is the other number that's being battered around, because ten years ago eleven terrawatts of renewables would have been an insane target. Nobody would have believed we can get there. And the reason why we can actually talk about this maybe being achievable is that wind and solar have got really cheap over the last decade. Solar will probably be pretty close or even exceed tripling. The challenge is wind. Our win team, who are sitting in different regions trying to come up with a sensible forecast for twenty thirty based on pipeline, based on policy, based on what's going on in their regions, are saying that no, wind is not going to triple by twenty thirty. It isn't the end for renewables if governments don't sign off on this, but it would really help to have some acceleration, particularly on the wind side, and so.

As of the end of twenty twenty two, we have about three point six terrawatts of renewable energy and this is wind, solar, big and small, hydro geothermal by a mass, and marine and tidle. Now the bit of that that anyone expects to drastically increase is a solar and wind section. And it's honestly great that we can even talk about tripling renewables or talk about eleven terrawatts of renewables, which is the other number that's being battered around, because ten years ago eleven terrawatts of renewables would have been an insane target. Nobody would have believed we can get there. And the reason why we can actually talk about this maybe being achievable is that wind and solar have got really cheap over the last decade. Solar will probably be pretty close or even exceed tripling. The challenge is wind. Our win team, who are sitting in different regions trying to come up with a sensible forecast for twenty thirty based on pipeline, based on policy, based on what's going on in their regions, are saying that no, wind is not going to triple by twenty thirty. It isn't the end for renewables if governments don't sign off on this, but it would really help to have some acceleration, particularly on the wind side, and so.

The difference between where we will be with business as usual, which is nine terrorworts, and where tripling would take us eleven terror warts is two terrorwards, which is a big difference.

The difference between where we will be with business as usual, which is nine terrorworts, and where tripling would take us eleven terror warts is two terrorwards, which is a big difference.

It's a big difference. And the other problem is that that two terror watts that fall shore is mostly win and wind is better than solar on a capacity basis because wind structurally has capacity factors of somewhere between thirty and fifty five percent, whereas even in the very sunniest deserts, solar has a capacity factor of maybe thirty percent.

It's a big difference. And the other problem is that that two terror watts that fall shore is mostly win and wind is better than solar on a capacity basis because wind structurally has capacity factors of somewhere between thirty and fifty five percent, whereas even in the very sunniest deserts, solar has a capacity factor of maybe thirty percent.

Which is just basically a way of saying that at any given time, because in a day, the sun only shines for so much time and the wind only blows for so much time, the one hundred percent capacity is never reached. You only get a fraction of one hundred percent in actual generated electricity.

Which is just basically a way of saying that at any given time, because in a day, the sun only shines for so much time and the wind only blows for so much time, the one hundred percent capacity is never reached. You only get a fraction of one hundred percent in actual generated electricity.

Yes, fundamentally, per installed megawatt of gigawatt, wind generates two or three times as much as solar.

Yes, fundamentally, per installed megawatt of gigawatt, wind generates two or three times as much as solar.

Obviously, the entire point of all this is to try and reduce emissions. So in the scenarios we do have around tripling renewable energy, what kind of emissions reductions do we get if we achieve that goal.

Obviously, the entire point of all this is to try and reduce emissions. So in the scenarios we do have around tripling renewable energy, what kind of emissions reductions do we get if we achieve that goal.

So the tripling renewables would have put us quite close to Benf's net zero scenario, which ended up with ten point five to ten what's by twenty thirty, and we estimate that the emissions reduction is about nine point three billion tons of carbon emissions in twenty thirty.

So the tripling renewables would have put us quite close to Benf's net zero scenario, which ended up with ten point five to ten what's by twenty thirty, and we estimate that the emissions reduction is about nine point three billion tons of carbon emissions in twenty thirty.

Wow, that is stunning. I mean, given where we are right now, which is thirty eight forty billion tons of CO two on an annual basis, that's like a twenty five percent reduction.

Wow, that is stunning. I mean, given where we are right now, which is thirty eight forty billion tons of CO two on an annual basis, that's like a twenty five percent reduction.

It's a start. I mean, this is by twenty thirty. That is both scarily close and a long time away to be talking about twenty five percent reduction. I wish we were looking at doing it quickly, but you simply cannot turn the juggernaut much faster than that.

It's a start. I mean, this is by twenty thirty. That is both scarily close and a long time away to be talking about twenty five percent reduction. I wish we were looking at doing it quickly, but you simply cannot turn the juggernaut much faster than that.

And so it puts us on the net zero track, which is of course, we must recognize the net zero track has all other sectors of emissions that also need to decline. We always knew, given how well solar and wind prices we're doing, that electricity sector is likely to reduce emissions the fastest, but on everything else we are quite far away. But let's go back to tripling renewable energy and just break it all down. You talked about how solar will play a big part in getting us there because solar has become cheaper, faster, and is easier to deploy, And you said we are on track and maybe even exceed tripling of solar. Now, why is that the case? Why is it that solar just makes for the easiest form of renewable deployment there is in the world.

And so it puts us on the net zero track, which is of course, we must recognize the net zero track has all other sectors of emissions that also need to decline. We always knew, given how well solar and wind prices we're doing, that electricity sector is likely to reduce emissions the fastest, but on everything else we are quite far away. But let's go back to tripling renewable energy and just break it all down. You talked about how solar will play a big part in getting us there because solar has become cheaper, faster, and is easier to deploy, And you said we are on track and maybe even exceed tripling of solar. Now, why is that the case? Why is it that solar just makes for the easiest form of renewable deployment there is in the world.

Our solar is incredible.

Our solar is incredible.

Act chat.

Act chat.

The thing is that photovoltaics is the first bulk electricity source we've ever had that doesn't involve turning a turbine. Do you know how special that is? We finally broke the tyranny of turning stuff around to drive a motor to generate electricity, and it's super cheap and just over the over the past few weeks, solar modules have dropped to a price we didn't expect to see for a few years. Yet they are scary cheap, which is really frightening if you're a module manufacturer trying to sell These things exceeds our expectations and how much gets built nearly every year, and it exceeds our expectations about how cheap it can get, not relidly, so otherwise we could change our expectations for better and that would make our forecasting much easier. But solar just keeps hitting it out of the park and it's not done yet.

The thing is that photovoltaics is the first bulk electricity source we've ever had that doesn't involve turning a turbine. Do you know how special that is? We finally broke the tyranny of turning stuff around to drive a motor to generate electricity, and it's super cheap and just over the over the past few weeks, solar modules have dropped to a price we didn't expect to see for a few years. Yet they are scary cheap, which is really frightening if you're a module manufacturer trying to sell These things exceeds our expectations and how much gets built nearly every year, and it exceeds our expectations about how cheap it can get, not relidly, so otherwise we could change our expectations for better and that would make our forecasting much easier. But solar just keeps hitting it out of the park and it's not done yet.

So why can't we just rely on solar, Why try and trouble ourselves to try and meet goals on wind and hydro.

So why can't we just rely on solar, Why try and trouble ourselves to try and meet goals on wind and hydro.

Well, I've been an expert on solar for eighteen years act shat and the answer to that is that solar doesn't generate at night, and it doesn't generate much in the winter. Is a highly technical answer, and I know this sounds silly, but as solar starts to be twenty percent of your electricity makes thirty percent, that does actually become a problem because the other sources that you want to add to the grid potentially needed to make money in daytime hours. So wind, for example, generates electricity in the winter and at night, but also during the daytime. Not getting any money for electricity in the daytime and in the summer, that does hit the economics of wind farms, and one of the things that governments would have to do is make sure the wind gets built anyway.

Well, I've been an expert on solar for eighteen years act shat and the answer to that is that solar doesn't generate at night, and it doesn't generate much in the winter. Is a highly technical answer, and I know this sounds silly, but as solar starts to be twenty percent of your electricity makes thirty percent, that does actually become a problem because the other sources that you want to add to the grid potentially needed to make money in daytime hours. So wind, for example, generates electricity in the winter and at night, but also during the daytime. Not getting any money for electricity in the daytime and in the summer, that does hit the economics of wind farms, and one of the things that governments would have to do is make sure the wind gets built anyway.

So, okay, we can't rely on solar to meet our renewables goals alone. That means we need wind power, and that is where we are not on track. So what is it that we can do to try and get wind power deployment back on track?

So, okay, we can't rely on solar to meet our renewables goals alone. That means we need wind power, and that is where we are not on track. So what is it that we can do to try and get wind power deployment back on track?

So first of all, to build wind we need to build more grid because wind farms are not distributed. They tend to be in specific locations that have to be quite big, so they need big grid connections to areas of land where you're allowed to build wind turbines. And easing permitting wields is also important, which is not to say that we should just build wind everywhere, but governments can allocate places and types of land which are suitable for wind farm development and potentially build grid to those. Those are the two really big things. And for offshore wind actually there's the additional possibility of holding auctions where the governments do site surveys on the seabed because it's pretty expensive to look into a maritime environment and assess the resource, and often you have developers doing the same report for the same bit of land, which is silly. Governments should take that over and do it once and say, hey, anyone want to build an offshore wind farm.

So first of all, to build wind we need to build more grid because wind farms are not distributed. They tend to be in specific locations that have to be quite big, so they need big grid connections to areas of land where you're allowed to build wind turbines. And easing permitting wields is also important, which is not to say that we should just build wind everywhere, but governments can allocate places and types of land which are suitable for wind farm development and potentially build grid to those. Those are the two really big things. And for offshore wind actually there's the additional possibility of holding auctions where the governments do site surveys on the seabed because it's pretty expensive to look into a maritime environment and assess the resource, and often you have developers doing the same report for the same bit of land, which is silly. Governments should take that over and do it once and say, hey, anyone want to build an offshore wind farm.

Here. The renewable stories for all the difficulties that some parts are facing and some governments are facing is a good one, and given the level of deployment that we are going to see over this decade, it's also going to be one that will require a ton of money going into the sector. What do the numbers say when we look at tripling renewables? How much money are we talking here?

Here. The renewable stories for all the difficulties that some parts are facing and some governments are facing is a good one, and given the level of deployment that we are going to see over this decade, it's also going to be one that will require a ton of money going into the sector. What do the numbers say when we look at tripling renewables? How much money are we talking here?

So it's a lot of money, but perhaps not a totally unreasonable amount. BNF calculates that last year about five hundred and sixty four billion dollars was invested in renewables. To be on track for net zero, about one point two trillion dollars need to be invested in wind and solar every year between twenty twenty three and twenty thirty. On average, it actually ramps up a bit, it's less than the first half of the decade. In addition to that, investment in grids needs to ramp up as well, to about seven hundred and seventy seven billion in twenty thirty. So that's the grid to take electricity away from all of these sources. And also a very significant amount has to be invested in batteries. So the amount of batteries worldwide has to increase by sixteen times by twenty thirty.

So it's a lot of money, but perhaps not a totally unreasonable amount. BNF calculates that last year about five hundred and sixty four billion dollars was invested in renewables. To be on track for net zero, about one point two trillion dollars need to be invested in wind and solar every year between twenty twenty three and twenty thirty. On average, it actually ramps up a bit, it's less than the first half of the decade. In addition to that, investment in grids needs to ramp up as well, to about seven hundred and seventy seven billion in twenty thirty. So that's the grid to take electricity away from all of these sources. And also a very significant amount has to be invested in batteries. So the amount of batteries worldwide has to increase by sixteen times by twenty thirty.

And of course we're talking about all this money as if it's just a cost, but we've deployed so much renewables not because it's just a cost, but it's actually beneficial, right, somebody is paying for that electricity, and building renewables is also pulling money away from fossil.

And of course we're talking about all this money as if it's just a cost, but we've deployed so much renewables not because it's just a cost, but it's actually beneficial, right, somebody is paying for that electricity, and building renewables is also pulling money away from fossil.

Fuels absolutely, I mean, you buy renewables so you never have to buy oil again.

Fuels absolutely, I mean, you buy renewables so you never have to buy oil again.

To meet the tripling renewable energy goal, we need to deploy seven hundred and twenty gigawatts of battery storage worldwide by twenty thirty. That's like sixteen times deployed by twenty twenty two, so it's way more than the tripling that we need to do on renewable energy capacity.

To meet the tripling renewable energy goal, we need to deploy seven hundred and twenty gigawatts of battery storage worldwide by twenty thirty. That's like sixteen times deployed by twenty twenty two, so it's way more than the tripling that we need to do on renewable energy capacity.

It's a lot of batteries, that's for sure, But on the other hand, the battery market was quite small at the end of twenty twenty two. Batteries is in a much earlier stage of deployment, so our battery team actually already says that energy storage capacity will increase fourteen point five times by twenty thirty, So getting to sixteen point one times, that's really just surrounding.

It's a lot of batteries, that's for sure, But on the other hand, the battery market was quite small at the end of twenty twenty two. Batteries is in a much earlier stage of deployment, so our battery team actually already says that energy storage capacity will increase fourteen point five times by twenty thirty, So getting to sixteen point one times, that's really just surrounding.

Eer batteries aren't in the target for tripling renewables because obviously it's just about tripling the sources of supply for clean energy. But why does battery investment have to rise that much.

Eer batteries aren't in the target for tripling renewables because obviously it's just about tripling the sources of supply for clean energy. But why does battery investment have to rise that much.

Well, if we don't build batteries, we're not going to be able to use all this solar and wind that we're building, particularly all this solar. The renewables build out relies on making the way that we use and store and sometimes even catail electricity better and more flexible because solar and wind do generate only when the resource is there. That's a big difference between yesterday's power system and the future power system that actually we can make sustainable and we have to move our demand to when there is electricity available. Batteries are one way of doing it. It's not the only way, but we definitely need to build batteries.

Well, if we don't build batteries, we're not going to be able to use all this solar and wind that we're building, particularly all this solar. The renewables build out relies on making the way that we use and store and sometimes even catail electricity better and more flexible because solar and wind do generate only when the resource is there. That's a big difference between yesterday's power system and the future power system that actually we can make sustainable and we have to move our demand to when there is electricity available. Batteries are one way of doing it. It's not the only way, but we definitely need to build batteries.

Well. Wind has problems, as we've seen, the industry is kind of struggling right now, but solar is cheap and clearly getting deployed much much faster. Could we just use batteries to maximize solar and not really worry that much about wind.

Well. Wind has problems, as we've seen, the industry is kind of struggling right now, but solar is cheap and clearly getting deployed much much faster. Could we just use batteries to maximize solar and not really worry that much about wind.

In parts of the world that will work. So if you're near the equator, you do pretty regularly get sunshine every day, but even there there are weeks where there's very little sun and I think that will drain even the biggest battery. And the other thing is if if you're just looking at tripling capacity, wind does just generate more power, more electricity than solar. So it would be really good to have a diverse portfolio of clean energy sources almost wherever you are.

In parts of the world that will work. So if you're near the equator, you do pretty regularly get sunshine every day, but even there there are weeks where there's very little sun and I think that will drain even the biggest battery. And the other thing is if if you're just looking at tripling capacity, wind does just generate more power, more electricity than solar. So it would be really good to have a diverse portfolio of clean energy sources almost wherever you are.

Energy security is another issue that has come to the forefront, especially in the last few years with wars, with volatile fossil fuel prices, with reliability of supply, and a lot of conversation going into COP twenty eight is going to be about well, we need to triple renewable energy, but also make sure that we are energy secure. So what does it mean just from a renewable perspective to try and make supply more secure.

Energy security is another issue that has come to the forefront, especially in the last few years with wars, with volatile fossil fuel prices, with reliability of supply, and a lot of conversation going into COP twenty eight is going to be about well, we need to triple renewable energy, but also make sure that we are energy secure. So what does it mean just from a renewable perspective to try and make supply more secure.

I think fundamentally renewables build is always going to make supply more secure, because if you've got solar wind on your land, that doesn't go away if you have problems with other stuff coming in. However, there's also a lot of talk about supply chains, so manufacturing your own solar panels, manufacturing own wind turbines, and there is a lot of investment going into this. The US Inflation of Adaption Act makes it very attractive to manufacture solar modules in the States. India's doing something somewhat similar, bit a bit less generous, and it's possible that Europe will put some money into factories as well. And in fact we estimate that the global supply chain for wind, solar and batteries is probably invested enough, at least within near term, there are enough factories out there to supply the tripling renewables future with like.

I think fundamentally renewables build is always going to make supply more secure, because if you've got solar wind on your land, that doesn't go away if you have problems with other stuff coming in. However, there's also a lot of talk about supply chains, so manufacturing your own solar panels, manufacturing own wind turbines, and there is a lot of investment going into this. The US Inflation of Adaption Act makes it very attractive to manufacture solar modules in the States. India's doing something somewhat similar, bit a bit less generous, and it's possible that Europe will put some money into factories as well. And in fact we estimate that the global supply chain for wind, solar and batteries is probably invested enough, at least within near term, there are enough factories out there to supply the tripling renewables future with like.

Minor tweaks, they're not that many things on which we can say, well, we are on track for net zero. It's interesting that manufacturing capacity wise, it seems like we are quite there. It's more really deploying all that capacity that's sitting.

Minor tweaks, they're not that many things on which we can say, well, we are on track for net zero. It's interesting that manufacturing capacity wise, it seems like we are quite there. It's more really deploying all that capacity that's sitting.

Definitely, the bottlenecks are all deployment, honestly, and it's not usually even economic barriers. It's usually things like grid and land and supply and getting long term security in place. It's things that potentially governments can debottom.

Definitely, the bottlenecks are all deployment, honestly, and it's not usually even economic barriers. It's usually things like grid and land and supply and getting long term security in place. It's things that potentially governments can debottom.

That after the break we get into the og of renewable energy hydropower. Now we've spent a lot of time talking about a wind and solar for very good reason. But until recently, the source of renewable energy that made for the greatest supply of renewable power was hydro. Does hydro feature in any way in this goal to reach tripling of renewable energy?

That after the break we get into the og of renewable energy hydropower. Now we've spent a lot of time talking about a wind and solar for very good reason. But until recently, the source of renewable energy that made for the greatest supply of renewable power was hydro. Does hydro feature in any way in this goal to reach tripling of renewable energy?

So I think the structure of the target probably doesn't benefit hydro, particularly because hydro has a high capacity vector. It's clearly advantageous for countries that can build hydro to add more hydro. My suspicion is though, that it will not be a big part of the increase. Building new hydro isn't trivial because you need a suitable place for it, and most developed countries have already pretty much developed the suitable resources that they have. A hydro is also quite susceptible to drought. The regions that are heavily dependent on hydro do sometimes have problems in drought. It's actually a good compliment of solar because of course solar generates more in those times of year, so it can help you use the hydro to just balance the solar. But yes, it's quite difficult for us to imagine that there will be a huge hydro build out.

So I think the structure of the target probably doesn't benefit hydro, particularly because hydro has a high capacity vector. It's clearly advantageous for countries that can build hydro to add more hydro. My suspicion is though, that it will not be a big part of the increase. Building new hydro isn't trivial because you need a suitable place for it, and most developed countries have already pretty much developed the suitable resources that they have. A hydro is also quite susceptible to drought. The regions that are heavily dependent on hydro do sometimes have problems in drought. It's actually a good compliment of solar because of course solar generates more in those times of year, so it can help you use the hydro to just balance the solar. But yes, it's quite difficult for us to imagine that there will be a huge hydro build out.

Are there other renewablelds that are meaningful in trying to meet this tripling renewables capacity.

Are there other renewablelds that are meaningful in trying to meet this tripling renewables capacity.

There aren't any that are quite as easy to scale a solar wind than hydro. I mean, if you have geothermal resources, then build geothermal power plants. That's really great, And it's very unlikely that this statement will actually do anything on nuclear. But nuclear is also an electricity source. There are parts of the world that can probably usefully build that. Otherwise there isn't really anything else that scales in the same way.

There aren't any that are quite as easy to scale a solar wind than hydro. I mean, if you have geothermal resources, then build geothermal power plants. That's really great, And it's very unlikely that this statement will actually do anything on nuclear. But nuclear is also an electricity source. There are parts of the world that can probably usefully build that. Otherwise there isn't really anything else that scales in the same way.

There is, in fact, some discussion among a group of countries sort of the Coalition of the Willing, that are going to try and put out a goal for tripling nuclear capacity by twenty fifty. So that may be the best outcome that nuclear has had had a cop meeting in forever. I think let's go back to tripling renewable energy, even though the goal is tripling renewables globally. Do all countries need to approach the target in the same way?

There is, in fact, some discussion among a group of countries sort of the Coalition of the Willing, that are going to try and put out a goal for tripling nuclear capacity by twenty fifty. So that may be the best outcome that nuclear has had had a cop meeting in forever. I think let's go back to tripling renewable energy, even though the goal is tripling renewables globally. Do all countries need to approach the target in the same way?

No, certainly not. Brazil, for example, already gets eighty five percent of its electricity from renewables, mostly hydro, and so it really makes no sense for Brazil to try and triple it's when it was capacity it should focus on the capnizing other parts of its economy instead. And then there are parts like the Middle East and Africa, Sub Saharan Africa, Southeast Asia and India is a really big one where increasing renewables by more than a tripling is not only required to get the role on track from net zero, but it's probably also quite beneficial potentially for bringing electricity to people who haven't had enough in the past, and to leap frog over the need to build centralized fossil fuel power plants. The market that is both expected to triple renewables by twenty thirty and where that would be really enough to be on a net zero pathway is China. China is building huge amounts of solar and wind and also batteries, and China is probably going to be on a net zero pathway. The US and Europe are not expected to triple renewables by twenty thirty. Europe is actually more ambitious than tripling renewables, which is great. Obviously, being ahead is fantastic. The US should speed up. I also suspect that, particularly for Sub Saharan Africa, tripling renewables is not a burden, but an opportunity, and richer countries can certainly help with providing climate finance and making it easier for these to deploy renewables. That should also help them on the development path. It should not be considered a thing that will help them back at this point.

No, certainly not. Brazil, for example, already gets eighty five percent of its electricity from renewables, mostly hydro, and so it really makes no sense for Brazil to try and triple it's when it was capacity it should focus on the capnizing other parts of its economy instead. And then there are parts like the Middle East and Africa, Sub Saharan Africa, Southeast Asia and India is a really big one where increasing renewables by more than a tripling is not only required to get the role on track from net zero, but it's probably also quite beneficial potentially for bringing electricity to people who haven't had enough in the past, and to leap frog over the need to build centralized fossil fuel power plants. The market that is both expected to triple renewables by twenty thirty and where that would be really enough to be on a net zero pathway is China. China is building huge amounts of solar and wind and also batteries, and China is probably going to be on a net zero pathway. The US and Europe are not expected to triple renewables by twenty thirty. Europe is actually more ambitious than tripling renewables, which is great. Obviously, being ahead is fantastic. The US should speed up. I also suspect that, particularly for Sub Saharan Africa, tripling renewables is not a burden, but an opportunity, and richer countries can certainly help with providing climate finance and making it easier for these to deploy renewables. That should also help them on the development path. It should not be considered a thing that will help them back at this point.

And when big economies do invest in renewables, we can see huge differences. So China obviously is the largest maker of all these renewable technologies, but also the largest deployer of renewables. Already, we had some reporting this year that given the level of deployment in China, its emissions are likely to peak this year, decline next year, and if it continues that kind of renewable deployment just remain in structural decrease after that. That's a goal as a country that China had set in the UN that they will peak their emissions before twenty thirty, and if these numbers are correct, it could peak it as soon as twenty twenty three. Now you raise the point that the US is not going to be tripling renewable energy according to the forecast have if the US went harder, that could make a big difference.

And when big economies do invest in renewables, we can see huge differences. So China obviously is the largest maker of all these renewable technologies, but also the largest deployer of renewables. Already, we had some reporting this year that given the level of deployment in China, its emissions are likely to peak this year, decline next year, and if it continues that kind of renewable deployment just remain in structural decrease after that. That's a goal as a country that China had set in the UN that they will peak their emissions before twenty thirty, and if these numbers are correct, it could peak it as soon as twenty twenty three. Now you raise the point that the US is not going to be tripling renewable energy according to the forecast have if the US went harder, that could make a big difference.

That's true. The thing about the US is that since the Inflation of Reduction Act has been published and brought into law. It's like this car that has the accelerator pressed down really hard, but it's also got the handbrake on. The economics of renewables are fantastic, but it's a really difficult business environment. It's hard to get permits, it's hard to get grid, it's hard to build anything in America, it seems like from afar. So what the US government should focus on is removing bottlenecks. The economics are fantastic and it should go, but it does need to speed up. And our local analysts all look at the numbers and go, oh, I don't think it's going to take off like a rocket.

That's true. The thing about the US is that since the Inflation of Reduction Act has been published and brought into law. It's like this car that has the accelerator pressed down really hard, but it's also got the handbrake on. The economics of renewables are fantastic, but it's a really difficult business environment. It's hard to get permits, it's hard to get grid, it's hard to build anything in America, it seems like from afar. So what the US government should focus on is removing bottlenecks. The economics are fantastic and it should go, but it does need to speed up. And our local analysts all look at the numbers and go, oh, I don't think it's going to take off like a rocket.

Now.

Now.

We've talked about tripling renewable energy because that's going to be one of the things that will get signed off at COP twenty eight most likely. But there are a few other things that are being talked about, and let's just touch on them briefly. One is doubling energy efficiency. It's kind of a no brainer. You can deploy solutions that would use less energy but give you the same output, and yet it's one that seems to not really be the sexy solution people want to chase.

We've talked about tripling renewable energy because that's going to be one of the things that will get signed off at COP twenty eight most likely. But there are a few other things that are being talked about, and let's just touch on them briefly. One is doubling energy efficiency. It's kind of a no brainer. You can deploy solutions that would use less energy but give you the same output, and yet it's one that seems to not really be the sexy solution people want to chase.

Efficiency is never sexy, and you generally don't get much credit saving energy. I really hope that passes, though, because the best sort of electricity to generate the sort that you never even have to generate because you don't use it. But it's obvious that it's not a splashy, sexy target like tripling renewables capacity.

Efficiency is never sexy, and you generally don't get much credit saving energy. I really hope that passes, though, because the best sort of electricity to generate the sort that you never even have to generate because you don't use it. But it's obvious that it's not a splashy, sexy target like tripling renewables capacity.

We have seen some movement, given volatility in energy prices over the past few years, where industry and governments have focused on trying to increase efficiency, but you're right, it's just sort of the underused lever. Ultimately, would just those two things do enough to get us to net zero or do we also have to have some form of agreement to reduce fossil fuel.

We have seen some movement, given volatility in energy prices over the past few years, where industry and governments have focused on trying to increase efficiency, but you're right, it's just sort of the underused lever. Ultimately, would just those two things do enough to get us to net zero or do we also have to have some form of agreement to reduce fossil fuel.

That's a very good question. I think that to get to actual net zero we have to not just decarbonize power, which is as we've discussed, the easy bit. We've also got to decarbonize shipping and transport and agriculture and aviation and industry, and all of those are harder. Yes, we can leave the bulk of that to be on twenty thirty, at which point we'll have loads of cheap and clean electricity. But we've got to start setting the pathway now to do so. So preparations for decarbonizing industry, transport, aviation, agriculture are really important to this point.

That's a very good question. I think that to get to actual net zero we have to not just decarbonize power, which is as we've discussed, the easy bit. We've also got to decarbonize shipping and transport and agriculture and aviation and industry, and all of those are harder. Yes, we can leave the bulk of that to be on twenty thirty, at which point we'll have loads of cheap and clean electricity. But we've got to start setting the pathway now to do so. So preparations for decarbonizing industry, transport, aviation, agriculture are really important to this point.

And since we talked earlier in the year about solar you have finished and a new edition of your book is coming out. What were the biggest updates?

And since we talked earlier in the year about solar you have finished and a new edition of your book is coming out. What were the biggest updates?

So my book is called Solar Power Finance without the Jargon, and the first edition was published in twenty nineteen, and it's meant to explain to people who may be studied stem more humanities what you need to know about finance to work in manewables. Back in twenty nineteen, I think I was relatively pessimistic about batteries. I sort of said, oh yeah, and there will also be batteries. But now it's actually pretty obvious that batteries are going to be a huge part of the solution. And over eighty percent of home solar systems in some European markets have batteries now, so they're really playing a part in moving that daytime power to the evening. Another thing is hydrogen. Now, hydrogen is not good for everything. It's not as good as heat pumps for home heating and it's not a silver bullet, but it's something that is potentially a way of storing power from somewhere to winter. And I think that it's probably going to be something that we use to de carbonize steel and also to run certain power plants when there is no sun and wind for a week and we don't really have many other ideas of what to do about that. So governments are investing very heavily in electoralizer facilities. So hydrogen is going to be a thing, and I hope it works, or I hope if it doesn't work, it's because we had a better way.

So my book is called Solar Power Finance without the Jargon, and the first edition was published in twenty nineteen, and it's meant to explain to people who may be studied stem more humanities what you need to know about finance to work in manewables. Back in twenty nineteen, I think I was relatively pessimistic about batteries. I sort of said, oh yeah, and there will also be batteries. But now it's actually pretty obvious that batteries are going to be a huge part of the solution. And over eighty percent of home solar systems in some European markets have batteries now, so they're really playing a part in moving that daytime power to the evening. Another thing is hydrogen. Now, hydrogen is not good for everything. It's not as good as heat pumps for home heating and it's not a silver bullet, but it's something that is potentially a way of storing power from somewhere to winter. And I think that it's probably going to be something that we use to de carbonize steel and also to run certain power plants when there is no sun and wind for a week and we don't really have many other ideas of what to do about that. So governments are investing very heavily in electoralizer facilities. So hydrogen is going to be a thing, and I hope it works, or I hope if it doesn't work, it's because we had a better way.

Now, on a day to day basis, you are looking at the renewable energy sector. You're looking at the clients who are interested in deploying renewable energy. But how much attention do you pay to cop does that really translate into business conversation for me?

Now, on a day to day basis, you are looking at the renewable energy sector. You're looking at the clients who are interested in deploying renewable energy. But how much attention do you pay to cop does that really translate into business conversation for me?

Now, I think that the business of renewables is actually much too busy to look at these sort of high level conversations which tend to take at least five to ten years to result in something actionable. Of course, that's the kind of timeframe that ultimately, as a species we should be looking at, But as an individual and investor investors are my clients anyway that you're looking for the next market to hit, the sort of projects to invest in, what's going to happen with cannibalization. I'm very focused on trying to forecast price for solo right now, which is really difficult, and all of those are much shorter term. But the cop meetings are important to set a path. They give companies signals like if I build a coal plant, there's a very good chance there'll be a carbon tax on that could plans, So maybe I shouldn't do that because it will be a strand, the dosset and so they have a huge amounts of value.

Now, I think that the business of renewables is actually much too busy to look at these sort of high level conversations which tend to take at least five to ten years to result in something actionable. Of course, that's the kind of timeframe that ultimately, as a species we should be looking at, But as an individual and investor investors are my clients anyway that you're looking for the next market to hit, the sort of projects to invest in, what's going to happen with cannibalization. I'm very focused on trying to forecast price for solo right now, which is really difficult, and all of those are much shorter term. But the cop meetings are important to set a path. They give companies signals like if I build a coal plant, there's a very good chance there'll be a carbon tax on that could plans, So maybe I shouldn't do that because it will be a strand, the dosset and so they have a huge amounts of value.

That was a lot of numbers, but I'm glad you could make sense of what is a big, big target.

That was a lot of numbers, but I'm glad you could make sense of what is a big, big target.

Thank you Jenny, Thank you Akschat. Have a good day everyone.

Thank you Jenny, Thank you Akschat. Have a good day everyone.

Thank you for listening to Zero every day. At copp we publish the Bloomberg Green newsletter full of all the latest at the summit. Sign up for free at Bloomberg dot com. There's a link in the show notes. Also, you can now listen to Zero without the ads. Just log into Apple Podcasts using your Bloomberg subscription. If you like this, episode. Please take a moment to rate or review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share this episode with a friend or with someone who's broken the tyranny of turning stuff around. You can get in touch at zero port at Bloomberg dot Net. Zero's producer is Oscar Boyd and senior producer is Christine riskell Ar. The music is composed by Wonderly Special thanks to kirapindrum i'm Akshadrati back soon with more from kop

Thank you for listening to Zero every day. At copp we publish the Bloomberg Green newsletter full of all the latest at the summit. Sign up for free at Bloomberg dot com. There's a link in the show notes. Also, you can now listen to Zero without the ads. Just log into Apple Podcasts using your Bloomberg subscription. If you like this, episode. Please take a moment to rate or review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share this episode with a friend or with someone who's broken the tyranny of turning stuff around. You can get in touch at zero port at Bloomberg dot Net. Zero's producer is Oscar Boyd and senior producer is Christine riskell Ar. The music is composed by Wonderly Special thanks to kirapindrum i'm Akshadrati back soon with more from kop