Throughout history, no social movement has succeeded without utilizing property destruction as a tactic, and if the climate movement is to be effective it will have to do the same. So says Andreas Malm, author of How to Blow Up a Pipeline, on this week’s episode of Zero. But how do you delineate between justifiable sabotage and unacceptable violence? And is there a risk that escalation backfires as a strategy?

Read a transcript of this episode, here.

Zero is a production of Bloomberg Green. Our producer is Oscar Boyd and our senior producer is Christine Driscoll. Thoughts or suggestions? Email us at zeropod@bloomberg.net. For more coverage of climate change and solutions, visit https://www.bloomberg.com/green