Clean

Meet the man with $400 billion to supercharge climate tech

Published Jun 22, 2023, 12:00 PM

Tesla is a household name, but few people have heard of the Loan Programs Office (LPO), one of Tesla’s crucial early backers. Part of the US Department of Energy, the LPO is tasked with awarding government-backed loans to clean-tech. In 2010, it loaned Tesla $465 million to help it weather the fallout from the financial crisis and build out the production of the Model S. With the signing of the Inflation Reduction Act last summer, the LPO was supercharged. It now has more than $400 billion to help the US achieve its climate goals.

Jigar Shah is the director of the LPO and joins Zero to give an exclusive on the organization's biggest ever loan: $9.2 billion to BlueOval SK, a joint venture between US auto giant Ford and South Korean battery manufacturer SK On. The money will be used to build battery factories for Ford’s growing line of electric vehicles. Jigar explains why he chose to make this loan, how it fits into President Joe Biden’s electric vehicle ambitions, and how he deals with the risks of investing in pioneering technologies.  

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Zero is a production of Bloomberg Green. Our producer is Oscar Boyd and our senior producer is Christine Driscoll. Special thanks to Ari Natter, Keith Naughton, Gabriella Coppola and Kira Bindrim. Email us at zeropod@bloomberg.net. For more coverage of climate change and solutions, visit bloomberg.com/green.

Welcome to zero. I'm Akshatrati. This week big trucks, big money, and a very big bet on batteries. Out of the many, many different organizations working on climate, you probably haven't heard of the Loan Program's Office, but you definitely have heard of the company it helped fund, Tesla. The Loan Program's Office, or LPO, was set up in two thousand and five under the US Department of Energy. In its early days, it was assigned as much as twenty five billion dollars to give as loans to help scale up innovative technologies. The LPO played a crucial role in helping save major US companies and even budding startups from bankruptcy during the fallout of the two thousand and eight financial crisis. One of those loans was to a small all electric car maker named Tesla, giving them four hundred and sixty five million dollars to help produce the model S. That was back in twenty ten, and since then the LPO has had some failures too. One big loan of five hundred and thirty five million dollars to a solar company called Cylindra could never be recovered, and the program was effectively put on pause under the presidency of Donald Trump. Now it is back and supercharged. Since the Inflation Reduction Act was signed last summer, the LPO has been given the authority to issue some four hundred billion dollars in loans, all to scale up climate tech. The person who heads the LPO and sits on that pile of cash is Jiggershaw, and he comes to zero with an exclusive. The LPO is announcing a conditional commitment to loan nine point two billion dollars to Blue Oval sk a joint venture between US car maker Ford Motor Company and South Korean battery Giant sk On. Jigger is an entrepreneur, and in two thousand and three he founded the solar company son Edison, then sold it for two hundred million dollars in two thousand and nine. Now he finds himself on the other side of the equation, giving money to entrepreneurs for projects that reduce emissions. I asked Jigger how he chooses which technology is to fund, why the US government is giving so much money to big car companies, and what company will be the next Tesla? Now you're responsible for nearly four hundred billion dollars to be deployed for climate solutions. But before we get to the details of that gob smacking sum, you started out in solar in the early two thousands. How did you go from being an entrepreneur to running such a large government program?

Yeah, you know, it certainly wasn't in the life plan that I wrote for myself. They're only two thousands and so it was not a direct straight line. But I do think that there's a pattern here. I think when you think about solar in the early two thousands, there are many banks out there that really thought that the technology was too risky to invest in. And the technology frankly hasn't changed that much from a risk standpoint. It certainly has gotten more efficient and lasts longer and all those things. But today you can still see solar panels that were installed in Germany in two thousand and three that continue to operate well twenty years later, right under that feed and tariff program that they had, and Japan had something similar with their ten thousand roosts program in Spain, and so that technology itself is actually quite stable and has been stable since roughly nineteen ninety two. But getting banks to actually pay attention and not be scared of. It was something that I had to live in the first person, right because I started a company called sun Edison, and that company was designed to attract capital and provide no money down financing to customers right under a power purchase agreement. And so I got told no a lot in terms of investors. And you know, instead of getting pissed off, my tack was to figure out, why, when this technology is so stable and it's been around for so long, why are they not even giving me a chance? And in the end, we were able to develop a financing model that got not only Goldman Sachs to fund, but Wells Fargo and other folks to fund. And today over a trillion dollars of capital has been put behind the financial model that we created.

The model that Jigger created at sun Edison was the solar purchase power agreement, basically a way of making solar panels more affordable. In the early two thousands, installing solar in the US was much more expensive than it is today, and the upfront cost meant that not many people or companies could afford it. So sun Edison came up with a solution. It would install the solar panels and maintain them, and the customers wouldn't pay money upfront. Sun Edison kept the ownership and made money by selling the electricity the panels produced to the customer, usually at a cheaper price than electricity of the grid. The customers saved money straight away and could power their home or business with clean energy. Sun Edison got a steady income guaranteed by twenty year contracts. The model was a massive hit in the US and gained the attention of banks like Goldman, Sachs and Wells Fargo. They saw this guaranteed income as an easy way to make money and began financing solar projects.

It's that journey, I would say that led me to as an engineer, get interested in you know, why do people allocate capital to commercializing energy technology?

And so now you're in charge of the Department of Energy's Loan Programs office, and people come to you just as you had gone to people to ask for money. So how is it being on the other side of the equation helping you not just make the decisions, but also put yourself in the mindset of somebody coming to you for the money.

Yeah, I mean, you know, I try very hard to retain that empathy around saying, you know, but for a couple of things that went my way, right, I'd be the person on the other side right, asking for the money, and how would I like to be treated. That doesn't mean that you say yes to everybody, obviously, but it does mean that, you know, we take the time, in this particular iteration of the Loan Program's Office to explain to people why we're passing on their approach or their technology, or what the deficiencies are in their application that need to be corrected for us to be able to consider their application right. And so we try very hard to recognize that not everyone worked on Wall Street for twenty years, myself included, and so we try not to use jargon like buyside and sell side or all these other things that people say, and they assume that people actually understand what those terms mean, but in fact, most people are nodding their head and leaving the conversation with no idea what they did wrong and how to correct their approach. And so we try really hard to be empathetic to that.

You mentioned this iteration of the Loan Program's Office, and that's an interesting way of phrasing it, because obviously the Loan Program's office has gone through different presidencies and has behaved differently under those presidencies. But the thing it's most famous for is loaning four hundred and sixty five million dollars to Tesla at just the right time, keeping the company afloat, allowing it to become the electric car giant that it is today. In this iteration, there is a flood of money coming into climate tech, and Tesla if it was in that situation today wouldn't really struggle for money. So what exactly is different about the money your office is giving out compared to other forms of capital that climate entrepreneurs can access.

Yeah, well, I think that in two thousand and eight, a few things were happening, right. You know, we ad a financial crisis, so that clearly made it so that credit was difficult to find. But also in general, I think that the mood in two thousand and eight was that electric cars were unlikely to be successful. So when we ad on Tesla, it was not in an enabling environment. That environment was one where people thought that electric vehicles had no place right today, the reason you're suggesting that people can borrow money for electric vehicles is because Tesla is so successful and it is worth many hundreds of billions of dollars, and so there is a feeling by private sector investors that if they invest in the next generation of electric vehicle companies right that they might actually get a similar rate of return. The goal for US is to make sure that people who are pursuing projects at speed and scale in the private sector have a place to go to be able to get the debt that they need to move their project confidently forward. The four hundred billion dollars has a few different programs, right. So it's the Innovative Clean Energy Programs, which is where we're providing liquidity to technologies that really can't get it anywhere else. You have the Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing Program, and then you have the Tribal Energy Loan Program, where there's no innovation required. It's really about helping the tribes to participate in the clinergy revolution. We separately have this seventeen oh six program, which is the Energy Infrastructure Reinvestment Program, and in that program, we're really helping companies who have existing coal plants, natural gas plants, oil and gas pipelines, refineries, et cetera. Transition those assets so that they can be relevant in the energy transition for the next fifty years. Some folks are converting coal plants to nuclear plants. Others are upgrading transmission lines from old wire to new wire that can handle two to three times the amount of electricity transmission. You know. Other are looking at virtual power plants. The vast majority of investors have no interest in being first, second, third, or even sixth right. They want to be seventh. So the real role that we're playing here is a liquidity role for people who really can't get debt from any other sources.

You're running the Loan Program's Office under Joe Biden's presidency, and clearly it's got a big mandate. But under Donald Trump, the LBOLI dormant for five years, and you know, five years is a long time in the gold to reach net zero. So how are you making up for lost time?

Well, there's nothing I can really do to make up for lost time. I think that ultimately, during that period of dormancy really for the office, there were many companies who needed this liquidity function who weren't able to find it, so ultimately they were delayed in terms of commercializing their technology. Today, we are, you know, making sure that people know that we're open for business. And for those companies who have continued to survive and have been able to get the equity necessary to continue to operate as a company, they've come into Loan Program's office.

We're going to be talking about equity and debt a lot in this episode. Simply put, equity is the money you can put into a company in return for shares. The company may or may not provide dividends on those shares, but the risky bet can pay off if the share price rockets. Debt is a more conservative investment. It's effectively a loan to the company which the company has to pay back with interest if the company goes bust. Typically, debt investors get paid first. As the name suggests, the Loan Program's office deals in debt, not equity.

So today we see about five hundred billion dollars in projects in the US across many many sectors that are seeking debt from our office, either in pre consultation or in an actual loan application that we've received. You know, that gives us a lot of validation that the program is needed to really unlock this commercialization and ultimately the best time to work on commercialization is yesterday. So we're working hard to help people today to be able to prove their technology and then you know, hopefully get commercial banks around the world comfortable with that technology so that they can take it from here.

So today we have an exclusive on zero about the biggest loan that LPO is giving out. It's a nine point two billion dollar loan to Blue Oval, which is a joint venture between Ford Motor Company and ESK, which is a giant battery company, and that partnership is going to enable Forward to access batteries that it's going to need for its scale up of EVS. What made you choose this particular project.

Well, the Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing Program is designed to onshore and reshore all of these manufacturing plants here in the United States, right, So the goal of the program is not innovation, but the goal of the program is really to get more of the supply chain to be manufactured in the United States. And I think that when you think about these next generation batteries that sk is featuring and Ford is partnering on, you're talking about what really is needed to get mass adoption and mass acceptance from American buyers of vehicles. Right, as you know, the top selling vehicle in the United States is the Ford F one to fifty truck.

It's a driving experience that's pure, unfiltered exhilaration in the moment you hit the accelerator. Oh and it's an F one fifty introducing the all electric F one fifty Lightning.

And you know, I think through the F one fifty Lightning announcement, Ford has really captured the imagination of new set of buyers of electric vehicles. And you know, I think when you think about the President's goal by twenty thirty of half of all vehicles really being electric.

I'm signing an executive order setting out a target of fifty percent of all passenger vehicles sold by twenty thirty will be electric.

And we need.

Automakers and other companies to keep investing in America. We need them not to take the benefits of our public investments and expand electric vehicles and battery manufacturing production abroad.

This is an extraordinary thing, right. We would need eight hundred gigawo hours of battery capacity to be able to meet that goal with pure battery electric vehicles, and today this announcement adds somewhere in the neighborhood around one hundred and twenty gigo what hours of additional capacity, which is pretty substantial along the goal of where we're trying to get to.

How much in gigo doars is the capacity in the US today?

Today we have about sixty or so that are operating by Tesla. GM Ltm, of course, is also building about one hundred and twenty to one hundred and thirty gig one hours of battery capacity. Their first plant in Ohio is reached the threshold of I think about sixty percent of their employees that they need there have been hired. These plants by Blue Oval are ramping up today, so they will take a little bit of time before they come online. But the goal here is by twenty twenty five to really have a very robust battery manufacturing business here in the United States, to be able to supply batteries to all the electric vehicles that consumers are demanding.

And this commitment right now is conditional. Can you define what it means and what type of conditions does Blue Will need to meet before it can access that money.

Yeah, it depends on the borrower in this particular case, I think that the conditions are quite modest. Right there paperwork requirements that need be completed to be able to close alone. For other applicants, they might agree to conditions like, hey, you know, we have suggested that our technology will operate in this fashion, and that we will not close alone until the technology operates in that fashion. And other applicants, the conditional commitment is an important stage gate for them because it proves that the US government has gone first, that we've evaluated their technology, that we believe that it actually works, and then they're going to use that conditional compment to go out and raise equity, complete the rest of the milestones, and then come to us for a close right. And so the conditional commitment is conditional. But for some applications it's just a step to the closing, and for others it's a really significant point of departure where they have to do a lot of other big steps.

And you explained that the goal of LBO is to provide capital that companies or startups or entrepreneurs wouldn't be able to access from private markets. Now, is it true that Ford, a giant car company with a steady source of revenue could not secure loans to build the eleven billion dollars worth of battery factories that this nine billion dollar loan, conditional as it is, is going to support.

It's a great question, you know. When I was saying that, I was really referring more to the innovative side of our house. Switch to Title seventeen. This one is in the Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing Program. So this access to capital is not the same requirement here in ATVM. You know, the requirement here is that they're planning on onshooring and reshoring capacity that otherwise may have been put into another country and then imported. Right. But even there, what I would say is even for Ford Motor Company, when you think about what this transition looks like, Ford is going to have to spend, I think they themselves have talked about upwards above twenty five billion dollars to be able to make this transition. That's a lot of money, even for Ford Motor Company. And so you can imagine if they did it purely on Wall Street, without using our program, that the terms may have been quite a bit less favorable, to the point where Ford would have to think twice about whether they could make the transition at the speed and scale necessary for what we need to combat climate change.

After the break, the Loan Program's Office was mothballed under the Trump presidency with all this new money to give out to climate tech. Is Jigger worried it will happen again if Trump comes back. How many applications do you have in the pipeline right now? You know what percentage of them do you expect to approve? Can you give us a detail on the types of projects as well? You know what technology that you're touching.

So the Loan Program's Office has a formal application process. So we have one hundred and forty one companies or projects that have formally applied to the Loan Program's Office across about one hundred and sixty five locations, and that amounts to a request from US of abound one hundred and twenty billion dollars worth of debt. And so if you think about this as a fifty to fifty equity debt ratio, then it's roughly two hundred and fifty billion dollars for the projects. Probably only a third of those applications are represented by people who have closed debt before. And you know have all of their paperwork in place, independent engineer reports, feed studies, things that you would expect to before you build a two billion dollar project that you would need to have completed, right. And so those are going to confidently get through the program, I think within the next twelve to fifteen months, and then the rest of the projects they have to be invited to come into loan program's office. So we believe all one hundred and forty one projects are capable of successfully getting money out of our program. Otherwise we wouldn't have invited them to apply. But you know, some of those folks, they're closing commercial debt for the first time, so you know, they find our data request to be offensive. You know, they're like, just believe in us, And I was like, well, I'm not supposed to believe in you. I'm supposed to verify the information directly, right. Or we're having a hard time raising the ten million dollars necessary to complete these independent gay reports or feed studies or things, right, and so then they have to go out and raise that money. So some of them are delayed, but we do believe that they'll get through the office. And then we have another roughly same number of projects that are sitting in pre consultation where the potential applicant hasn't applied yet. But you know, we're talking to them and we're quite bullish about the technology and the project that they're pursuing.

But the timeline surely has to be one that you're focused on, because you've told Bloomberg previously that Energy Secretary Jennifer Grehnholm opens up every meeting with how many days we've been in office and how many days are left. So are you worried that if a Republican president is elected in twenty twenty four that the LPO will be mothballed again and all this money that is crucial for the transition will just sit on the sidelines.

I'm more inspired by the applicants that I am about. You know, political timeline, right, I mean, these applicants have a burn rate, So every month I take that's longer then it should take means that they're burning more cash and they might go out of business before we can help them. Separately to your question, I'd say that I think that this office in particular has fairly universal support from the political parties, not because of any sort of personality thing. I don't think it's me that they like. It's more that you know, we are uniformly funding everything, right, So, whether it's nuclear power or carbon sequestration in storage, or hydrogen or next generation wind or whatnot. Every single member of Congress, every single Senator, every single politician, every mayor in the United States has a project that they want to happen in their district, in their community.

Some of the lpo's most successful loans, some of which we've talked about already, are to car manufacturers. These have had wide reaching impacts making batteries much cheaper, but a lot of these cars are let's say, not efficient. I mean, yes, the F one fifty is the most selling vehicle in America, and having an F one fifty lightning and electric version is crucial, but it's also a massive truck. So are there any plans to use some of lpo's big money to go to a public transportation.

Yeah, it's a good question, right, I mean I think that we can, you know, have all sorts of ideas and dreams here at the Loan Program's office, and we do have the authority, I think, to be able to fund public transit. But remember where private sector led government enabled, right, So the private sector has to come to us with a public transit application, which which I have currently not received, but you can imagine one coming. So you can imagine a downtown saying, you know, we want to reduce car congestion by eighty percent, and so we're going to have these more efficient ways to move people around downtown, and we're going to spend three hundred million dollars on it. It's going to save this much greenhouse gas emission, it's going to be powered by electricity, it's going to do all these things. But someone has to dream about it. I think people have dreamed about it, and people have been told that, sorry, your dreams are not that practical, right, These are not things that you know, America, who loves their cars, are willing to do. And you know, I think that's patently false. I think Americans are inspired by big dreamers, right, And so I think if someone said, look, we need a new model for urban planning, and that new model is this new form of transportation, and oh, by the way, it's going to reduce people's overall cost of getting around by ninety percent because it's not a cheap thing to own a car of any type right in tonalobush or electric for that matter. And then you have the parking, and you have all sorts of things. I mean, in some cities forty percent of the entire land of the city is basically donated to parking spaces and roads. That seems like a poor use of land. You probably want to use that land for something more productive. But that dream has to come from the entrepreneur, it can't come from us.

We talked about the Tesla case. Obviously, Tesla succeeded as a company, but at the same time LPO gave out this loan to Cylindra, which was a solar company that went past, and you couldn't recover the money that you had loaned to them. You've come at a different time in the transition. But how do you think of risk as a factor in making your decision? Because you're taking some technology risk in some cases, you're taking other types of risk in other cases, and the criticisms will come to you because you're a taxpayer funded institution. So how do you balance it all?

Well, So, in the wake of that loan, we were given a lot of unsolicited let's say, and we've implemented almost all of the suggestions that were given to us, and many of them were quite good suggestions.

Right.

So when you think about what happened in that loan, well, one was we only had twelve employees or so at the time that we give the loan out. Today we have two hundred and fifty or so, and so you know, I think we're well staffed. We didn't have you know, separate risk departments and portfolio management departments. It's hard to have many departments with twelve people. So you know, we now have a risk department and a portfolio management department, and so I can in my opinion, you know, Clendra wouldn't have gotten through this iteration of the Loan Program's Office for a couple of reasons, right. One is that the Loan Program's Office doesn't take real technology risk anymore, or we never should we take perceived technology risk, right, So the technology has to be ready for primetime, and we can validate that with the ten thousand engineer, scientists and experts on our platform. And you know Slender's case even today that technology doesn't work. The second thing is that in the vast majority of our loans we do now we make the equity come in first and then the debt comes in second. Right, So that's another way to de risk these technologies. And we've had other failures we have a bound Solar or Fisker automotive or you know ton empower or some of the other projects that we've had, but in each of those cases, we've averaged roughly fifty cents on the dollar of recoveries back to us. Right. So I do think that the risk management approach that we're taking is working. That doesn't mean we're not going to lose money, right as I just suggested, Like we will in some cases only recover fifty cents on the dollar, And that's okay. That is our mandate is to go first, right, Like you know, our mandate is not to be so risk averse that we're not helping anybody. We have to lean in and help people. One validation here is that I think the program has really been looked at as being so successful to date that you see governments around the world now looking to copy the model because they think that it's actually a very unique model that their own entrepreneurs and innovators need.

Which countries have copied it already.

I've copied it yet that I know of, but we certainly have gotten reach outs from many countries that are saying we need something similar. We have this problem where our research and development institutions get a technology all the way to demonstration and then the commercial banks don't pick it up to finish the process right, and so we need this middle thing. So I think that I think there are many that are considering.

Can you name any I will not, okay.

Because I think it is for them to name, but I appreciate that we've gotten to the point now I think what the Loan Program's Office is believed to be a model worth replicating.

You made this important distinction between technology risk and perceived technology risk. Could you talk us through maybe an example, maybe a failure where that distinction is clear to you and has been the way for you to be able to make a decision whether that project got the money from the Loan Program's Office or not.

Most of the information is business confidential, so I won't be able to answer the question in the way that I think you posed it, but maybe I can attempt to try. So. The model of the materials deal. They're using methane pyroalysis right with a plasma.

Torch Monolith Materials is the first company to work out how to use a technique called methane pyrolysis to create hydrogen at commercial scale. The process uses a superheated plasma torch to split a methane molecule into carbon and hydrogen without creating carbon dioxide. The two are then separated, with the hydrogen used as fuel or as feedstock for fertilizer and the carbon black used to make car tires or graphite for batteries. Monolith Materials was offered a conditional loan of one billion dollars from the LBO in December twenty twenty one to expand its facility in Nebraska.

We don't take will it work, won't at work risk. That is sister programs within the pro Energy that demonstrate technology. But in that case we are taking execution risk, and it's a real risk, right. I mean, there are some management teams that you just get wrong. They fail to execute properly. But the risk that we don't take is the will it work won't it work? When we go back to our scientists, they have to confidently say, oh no, this works. We've demonstrated it these five times, like we know and Frankly, many of our scientists actually are the patent holder for that technology.

Right.

DOOE has funded many of these technologies for forty five plus years. Right, So we know whether something will work or won't work, We just don't know whether they can execute well.

One of the many technologies that you do support through the office is common capture and storage. That technology has had a long history. Again broadly, the technology is more than fifty years old and has had success in one variety, which is to enhance oil recovery, which it can do very well, but has had failures in other places, either technology failures or just execution failures. With common capture, every plant seems to have its own quirk. It needs to be tweaked to the type of gas, It needs to be built at a facility that already has a bunch of infrastructures, So you have to plan the design specifically. Where do you capture it, how do you transport it, where do you sequester it? Do you think the cost can ever go down as quickly as it did for other technologies.

Yeah, it's a good question. I mean there are still learning curves that apply here. Right, So, first of a kind deployment will always have extraordinarily conservative assumptions. You get to engineering excellence in projects two through six. What the private sector is interested in funding today, which they're assuming they will fund about one hundred and forty one million tons a year of sequestration in the US by the end of the decade, is largely industrial processes that already have a concentrated cootwo stream that comes out, so they're not doing the concentration like you would at a coal plant or natural gas plant, but instead they're just taking a pure CO two stream that comes out of ethanol or ammonia production or natural gas processing, putting it into a CO two pipeline, and then depositing it into a Class six well, which we've been doing for over twelve years with AIGHTM in the state of Illinois.

In the US, wells that are used for injecting common dioxide into the ground have to get approved by the Environmental Protection Agency. Class six welts are designed for long term storage of common dioxide deep underground and qualify for certain tax credits. They also need to meet strict regulations, including protecting underground water sources. Currently, only two Class six welts have been approved in the US, both operated by ADM in Illinois.

So in general, I would say that where the private sector's comfort level is is in an area where the technology has already been demonstrated but has not been scaled up. And so that's what we're seeing the bulk of the one hundred and forty one million tons coming from. Now. We have grant programs that will provide direct air capture grants and first of a kind deployments at natural gas plants and coal plants, et cetera. But those projects by definition or demonstration projects, right, so they're not expected to be commercially viable. They're expected to demonstrate a technology at scale so that we can determine whether we should build the next one or the one after that, etc. And so it's in the pursuit of science. I think it's important though, to note the International Energy Agency as well as DOE, has put out reports saying here are all the technologies that we need to meet the climate crisis, and carbon capture and sigstration is one of them. So we have to get it right. I mean, we can't just say let's ignore it right. The same thing is true for nuclear power or for hydrogen. Some of these areas are more difficult, and we need to solve the commercialization conundrum for all of them. Right. That is the mandate and the charter that the Loan Program's Office has, and certainly the mandate the DOE has. What we aren't doing at DOE is telling everybody what to scale up. Right, the private sector determines that DOE is here to make sure that technologies are already so we have a suite of technologies to meet the climate change moment, not to decide exactly which pathway we're going to take.

Most of my conversations are with people who are investing real sums of money toward the transition, but the gap between the billions they spend and the trillions that are needed is usually huge. Today, I get to speak to you who has hundreds of billions of dollars to put to work, and the gap between the hundreds of billions and trillions is actually quite small. So are there ways in which you are using that money and you have this multiplier effect to turn your hundreds of billions into the trillions?

I mean, you know, it's a return to the start of our conversation, right, which is when I started Son Edison you know, I asked a bunch of seemingly dumb questions around who gets paid, how do they get paid, how do they make decisions, how does this work right? And in the end what you find is that there are trillions of dollars. There are so many trillions of dollars, and they need to be invested. Otherwise you can't make money for pensioners or other people who you know require you to do that to be able to pay their pension. So the question really becomes how do you earn their trust right? And that's the bridge to bankability. We have to build this bridge to bankability, and we have to show our work. So we issued LIFTOFF reports and nuclear hydrogen, long duration energy storage and Carbon Management.

The lift of reports that Jigger is talking about are written by the Department of Energy to explain how and when certain clean energy technologies will be available for mass adoption. If you want to read the reports, we'll put a link in the show notes.

Each sector has its own challenges, right. Some of it is purely technical. Do you know the cost of something as accent it needs to become why and you know the only way to do that is to deploy one hundred billion dollars worth of technology and bring that technology down the cost curve, which is what we did for solar and Win. And then once you spend one hundred billion dollars crossing that bridge to bankability for each technology, of which there might be twenty, so that's two trillion dollars, right, one hundred billion times twenty, then they're ready to take the football and take it the rest of the way. And part of the reason why we wrote the Liftoff reports is because some of these folks weren't paying attention. We were crossing the bridge to bankability and they weren't watching, And so now we're forcing them to watch, and they're like, Wow, you've made a lot more progress than I suspected. Maybe I should pay more attention, which is great, right, And so we're trying to figure out how to meet the moment and how to inspire those billions and trillions that are currently only investing in solar and wind and battery storage and some of these other technologies that might actually be mature in their minds and try to get them to look at some of these other technologies, some of which have made it quite a bit across the bridge. To bankability.

Four hundred billion dollars is already a gobsmacking amount. And if I heard you right now, you're seeking two trillion dollars. I hope you get it now. In all the applications that you've been looking at, have you found the next Tesla?

Many? Many, But remember the next Tesla is not about us, right, I mean, it's not about us, it's about them. So you know, there are a lot of companies that are slow and steady, wins erased kind of companies. That's clearly not Elon Musk and clearly not Tesla. He likes to over promise, under deliver, but then delivers in the end. But we have the same thing. Monolith materials is pretty amazing, right. When you think about splitting natural gas into carbon black and hydrogen, it's pretty amazing. And when you think about the energy and environmental justice issues around the way that we make carbon black, now it's atrocious, right, So to clean that up and to save the health impacts for all those people is really amazing, right. And if he gets it right, you can build fifty of those sites.

That was a great conversation.

Thank you so much, my pleasure. And you know what's really fun is to see how many people are actually opening their eyes to what's possible and going for it. If we had a small part to play in inspiring those people, I'm there for it.

Nine billion dollars is a bonkers amount of money for the US government to give out to a private company, even as alone. There will be a huge reaction to this news, which you can read all about on Bloomberg dot com. Forward slash Green thanks for listening to Zero. If you enjoyed this week's episode, share it with a friend or someone who wants to revolutionize public transport. Zero's producer is Oscar Boyd and senior producer is Christine driscoll. Our theme music is by Wonderly Special Thanks this week to Aary Natter, Keith Norton, Gabby Coppola, and Kira Bindram. I'm Aksha Prati back next week.

Zero

Zero is about the tactics and technologies taking us to a world of zero emissions. Each week Bloombe 
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