Hi, listeners, welcome back. I'm Nata Glover Towob and you need to hear this. Usually I would put this at the end of the episode, but I want to start here. If you have a situation with postpartum or parenting challenges, I'd love to hear from you. Also, if you're having any work issues, any challenging issues with the boss, like if Michael Scott from the office is your boss, like this self centered person, I would love to hear about that. If you have any challenges around overworking, I would love to hear about that as well. I'm trying to pull in some topics we may not have discussed yet, So if you have some fresh topics, please send them our way. You can send those messages to you need to hear this. At iHeartMedia dot com. This week we'll be talking about fairness and families and it is a letter about in law relationships. You know, in families we often hear about, well this person got to do that, or this isn't the expectation for them, why is it the expectation for me? And guess what, in all relationships, what we really seek is fairness, right, like you know, whether it's with our partners where like, you know, if I took the garbage out, you should take the recycling out. Or if I did the dishes, you should cook the meal. Like we're seeking this like equality in our relationships because it just makes things feel balanced. And when the expectations are high for us and there are none for others, or when they're low, it creates you know, maybe like this inner turmoil. I don't want to say it creates chaos in a relationship, but it makes us feel like I'm not being seen. I am a whole person. I have issues too. Why isn't anyone seeing this? And to make matters worse, when someone is telling you to be the bigger person with someone who is unkind, who is me, who is selfish, who is not fair, it really challenges our ideas about these relationships, right, Like I certainly can think of times where you know, people have come to me in my life and it's like, you know, you should just talk to that person, and it's almost like this this other person who actually committed the offense. They don't have the capacity to apologize or to accept accountability. And maybe because I'm a therapist or people think I have some you know, high level of like tolerance. It's like you should just call them and reach out to them, reach out to the person who harmed me. It's like, look, I'm a therapist. I'm not a nun. Okay, like I have feelings too, you know I am. I am not a Buddhist monk.

Hi, listeners, welcome back. I'm Nata Glover Towob and you need to hear this. Usually I would put this at the end of the episode, but I want to start here. If you have a situation with postpartum or parenting challenges, I'd love to hear from you. Also, if you're having any work issues, any challenging issues with the boss, like if Michael Scott from the office is your boss, like this self centered person, I would love to hear about that. If you have any challenges around overworking, I would love to hear about that as well. I'm trying to pull in some topics we may not have discussed yet, So if you have some fresh topics, please send them our way. You can send those messages to you need to hear this. At iHeartMedia dot com. This week we'll be talking about fairness and families and it is a letter about in law relationships. You know, in families we often hear about, well this person got to do that, or this isn't the expectation for them, why is it the expectation for me? And guess what, in all relationships, what we really seek is fairness, right, like you know, whether it's with our partners where like, you know, if I took the garbage out, you should take the recycling out. Or if I did the dishes, you should cook the meal. Like we're seeking this like equality in our relationships because it just makes things feel balanced. And when the expectations are high for us and there are none for others, or when they're low, it creates you know, maybe like this inner turmoil. I don't want to say it creates chaos in a relationship, but it makes us feel like I'm not being seen. I am a whole person. I have issues too. Why isn't anyone seeing this? And to make matters worse, when someone is telling you to be the bigger person with someone who is unkind, who is me, who is selfish, who is not fair, it really challenges our ideas about these relationships, right, Like I certainly can think of times where you know, people have come to me in my life and it's like, you know, you should just talk to that person, and it's almost like this this other person who actually committed the offense. They don't have the capacity to apologize or to accept accountability. And maybe because I'm a therapist or people think I have some you know, high level of like tolerance. It's like you should just call them and reach out to them, reach out to the person who harmed me. It's like, look, I'm a therapist. I'm not a nun. Okay, like I have feelings too, you know I am. I am not a Buddhist monk.

I am not.

I am not.

I don't have this level of peace that you may think. I am still hurt. I am still harmed. And I'm not saying that those people do. But I'm just saying when I think of those people, I think of, you know, like the epitome of forgiveness. I'm not that I'm not there yet. I'm like, I'm still reeling from this thing, and I think many of us are. I will say, you know, I have learned to extend compassion to people, right, that doesn't always mean that I'll go back and I'll be the bigger person. But it's like, huh, it must be really tough to even be the sort of person who can acknowledge that you did something wrong, Like just acknowledging something will just tear you to pieces, just ruin your whole life. To say, oh, I did this thing, I can have compassion for that because I don't feel that way about things, so I could see how hard it be to apologize. And I'm willing in some cases to acknowledge apology related behavior, like when people are nice but they haven't directly apologized, or when they're trying to offer a kind just or hey, I cook the you know, I cook the pound cake. It's like you ain't apologize, but you know I like your pound cake, right, you know, like they're trying to do something. And so sometimes you know, even if people can't say the words, or if they're not willing to make amends in some big way, you know, it could be helpful for our relationships or the ability to be cordial, just to accept their small gesture. Let's listen to today's letter.

I don't have this level of peace that you may think. I am still hurt. I am still harmed. And I'm not saying that those people do. But I'm just saying when I think of those people, I think of, you know, like the epitome of forgiveness. I'm not that I'm not there yet. I'm like, I'm still reeling from this thing, and I think many of us are. I will say, you know, I have learned to extend compassion to people, right, that doesn't always mean that I'll go back and I'll be the bigger person. But it's like, huh, it must be really tough to even be the sort of person who can acknowledge that you did something wrong, Like just acknowledging something will just tear you to pieces, just ruin your whole life. To say, oh, I did this thing, I can have compassion for that because I don't feel that way about things, so I could see how hard it be to apologize. And I'm willing in some cases to acknowledge apology related behavior, like when people are nice but they haven't directly apologized, or when they're trying to offer a kind just or hey, I cook the you know, I cook the pound cake. It's like you ain't apologize, but you know I like your pound cake, right, you know, like they're trying to do something. And so sometimes you know, even if people can't say the words, or if they're not willing to make amends in some big way, you know, it could be helpful for our relationships or the ability to be cordial, just to accept their small gesture. Let's listen to today's letter.

Hi, Nidra, I feel like ultimately I'm having trouble accepting a lack of fairness and relationships. I've been dealing with the situation with my in laws for many years now. My now husband sister has been racially insensitive to me in the past, and she has a long history of self centeredness. When she was told about these things, she chose to ignore them and not apologize at first, which caused a rift between us. She since apologized, but she's shown no capacity for changing her behavior moving forward, which makes my husband and I uncomfortable having a relationship with her. We've both taken a lot of effort to explain our perspective to her and to engage in dialogue about how our relationship can improve. We've sent her letters over the years, We've had in person conversations, etc. But we still find we can't trust her because her actions contradict what she says. For example, she says she cares and she understands, but then she won't reach out to continue conversations. Or we always have to be the one to make efforts in the relationship.

Hi, Nidra, I feel like ultimately I'm having trouble accepting a lack of fairness and relationships. I've been dealing with the situation with my in laws for many years now. My now husband sister has been racially insensitive to me in the past, and she has a long history of self centeredness. When she was told about these things, she chose to ignore them and not apologize at first, which caused a rift between us. She since apologized, but she's shown no capacity for changing her behavior moving forward, which makes my husband and I uncomfortable having a relationship with her. We've both taken a lot of effort to explain our perspective to her and to engage in dialogue about how our relationship can improve. We've sent her letters over the years, We've had in person conversations, etc. But we still find we can't trust her because her actions contradict what she says. For example, she says she cares and she understands, but then she won't reach out to continue conversations. Or we always have to be the one to make efforts in the relationship.

You know, as I'm listening to this, I'm thinking what is the relationship we expect to have with people? Sometimes we could get so caught up in what the title of something is, what we've seen other people be able to do that we may think, Oh, to have a relationship with my sister in law, it should look like this. We may need to just have I see you on the holidays relationship or I, you know, talk to you through you know, our husband's talking to each other type of relationship. It may not be that we are friends or that we have regular contact and communication because it's not possible with the people who are present. On a recent trip to New York, I went to see this play called Appropriate, and the play was about three siblings who had different relationships with their father and when he died, they discovered some racist material in his home, and everyone's interpretation of that was different. You know, like one person was like, oh, my gosh, I always knew dad was a racist. The other one is like, what, he could never be racist. He was, you know, a great person, and the other person is like, no, I think you know, I'm gonna go with this other person. So I think with dynamics of racism, trying to convince someone that this is a racist thing or this is not it comes from their own level of understanding. Even when you are the targeted person. Culturally, they may feel like, oh, this is appropriate or yes, I said that, and this is as far as my apology needs to go. I said I'm sorry, and that's that. You know, they want to determine how you respond to that, and it just doesn't work that way.

You know, as I'm listening to this, I'm thinking what is the relationship we expect to have with people? Sometimes we could get so caught up in what the title of something is, what we've seen other people be able to do that we may think, Oh, to have a relationship with my sister in law, it should look like this. We may need to just have I see you on the holidays relationship or I, you know, talk to you through you know, our husband's talking to each other type of relationship. It may not be that we are friends or that we have regular contact and communication because it's not possible with the people who are present. On a recent trip to New York, I went to see this play called Appropriate, and the play was about three siblings who had different relationships with their father and when he died, they discovered some racist material in his home, and everyone's interpretation of that was different. You know, like one person was like, oh, my gosh, I always knew dad was a racist. The other one is like, what, he could never be racist. He was, you know, a great person, and the other person is like, no, I think you know, I'm gonna go with this other person. So I think with dynamics of racism, trying to convince someone that this is a racist thing or this is not it comes from their own level of understanding. Even when you are the targeted person. Culturally, they may feel like, oh, this is appropriate or yes, I said that, and this is as far as my apology needs to go. I said I'm sorry, and that's that. You know, they want to determine how you respond to that, and it just doesn't work that way.

You know.

You know.

There are some things that culturally we deal with in different ways, but that is you know, based on the individual and how you respond to it is how you respond to it. And you know, if you feel like there needs to be more action on her part, whether she has a pology or not, there needs to be more action on her part. There is no way for her to determine like, hey, I've done enough when you're like, I don't think you have. Like this needs to be a lived apology. There needs to be some consistent show that you are learning from this experience, and not everyone has the capacity to do that because you know, as I saw in that play, it can be really hard to admit that you are a racist or you made a racist comment, or it was an inappropriate joke, or it was poor taste, or it was insensitive. It can be really hard to see ourselves in that way because we may feel like, oh my gosh, like I'm not a racist person, and maybe you're not, but you're certainly racially insensitive as you said, right, So it's not that you're a terrible person, but what you say it was inappropriate.

There are some things that culturally we deal with in different ways, but that is you know, based on the individual and how you respond to it is how you respond to it. And you know, if you feel like there needs to be more action on her part, whether she has a pology or not, there needs to be more action on her part. There is no way for her to determine like, hey, I've done enough when you're like, I don't think you have. Like this needs to be a lived apology. There needs to be some consistent show that you are learning from this experience, and not everyone has the capacity to do that because you know, as I saw in that play, it can be really hard to admit that you are a racist or you made a racist comment, or it was an inappropriate joke, or it was poor taste, or it was insensitive. It can be really hard to see ourselves in that way because we may feel like, oh my gosh, like I'm not a racist person, and maybe you're not, but you're certainly racially insensitive as you said, right, So it's not that you're a terrible person, but what you say it was inappropriate.

At this point, it's been several years of little to no contact between us, and it's now affecting our other relationships with my husband's family. His parents are heartbroken and have asked us to repeatedly fix things. When I ask if they talk to his sister in the same way, it doesn't seem like they have the same expectations for her. It's the same with other family members. They're all aware of the situation and agree his sister was wrong and can be difficult and can be selfish, but they still expect us to be the bigger people and make amends. They've made it clear that we don't have to be close with her, but they do care a lot about the family being able to be together, and it seems like they'd be one hundred percent satisfied if we had a surface level relationship. I don't know what a relationship can look like with someone who won't try, and I'm also resentful of everyone expecting us to make things better even though I was the one wrong. I feel like giving into a surface level relationship would mean I'm feeding into their delusions about us being close.

At this point, it's been several years of little to no contact between us, and it's now affecting our other relationships with my husband's family. His parents are heartbroken and have asked us to repeatedly fix things. When I ask if they talk to his sister in the same way, it doesn't seem like they have the same expectations for her. It's the same with other family members. They're all aware of the situation and agree his sister was wrong and can be difficult and can be selfish, but they still expect us to be the bigger people and make amends. They've made it clear that we don't have to be close with her, but they do care a lot about the family being able to be together, and it seems like they'd be one hundred percent satisfied if we had a surface level relationship. I don't know what a relationship can look like with someone who won't try, and I'm also resentful of everyone expecting us to make things better even though I was the one wrong. I feel like giving into a surface level relationship would mean I'm feeding into their delusions about us being close.

If there could be a conversation have where there is clarity around this is not a close relationship. The intention of this is to be able to gather You know, like you know that. It sounds like your in laws know that just you may not be feeding into it being a close relationship. If you keep it at the gathering. You know, we're able to get together for this person's birthday, We're able to get together for this holiday. There is no communication between us and between This is all to you know, be family, to have kids, play with kids, and adults see adults. It's not for us to be in this you know, happy circumstance together because we don't have that type of relationship. So just being in someone's presence does not mean that you have a close relationship. It's really the intimacy in the relationship that shows where the closeness is. So if you show up to a family gathering, it doesn't mean that you have the same level of closeness with everyone there. It just means you're at the family gathering. So I do wonder is it possible for you to just be cordial in this conversation. I remembered a book that I read called Rebecca not Becky. It's a novel and it talks about just racial dynamics between you know, various cultures and these nuances that may happen and people don't even realize that that's offensive or that's some bias that you have, like these things happen, and if you are predominantly around your culture and you don't have other exposure, you may not even realize some of these things you're doing because it's you know, it's really normal. It's really normal to be, you know, kind of like in this box of this is how everything is, and this is what we can say, and this was what we could do and really buy into that I'm not doing anything wrong or I don't have to change anything. When an actuality in the general public, it's not okay, it is not a norm, it is inappropriate. And so you know, maybe having some idea that because of this family culture or because of you know, who she is, there may be a lack of understanding and you don't have to shift that for her. But I do wonder, you know, if you want to be in this family, how do you provide some clarity around hey and laws. I understand that you want us to have, you know, this relationship, and maybe it could be surface level, right. I think about, you know, people we work with, and I don't have a super close relationship with everyone that I work with, but some people I do, and that's based on who they are, and you know the things we have in common and our interests in all of these things, and we can do that. You know, we choose to turn that that sort of switch on on and off, like I can be in this sort of relationship with this person and then on this other way I choose not to and so you can have that switch on and off. Now, maybe you say every relationship I have it needs to be deeply connected. You know that's not going to be true. There are some surface level relationships that we have, and maybe the agreement is to have a surface level relationship with this in law. You know, you've highlighted what she's done. It sounds like you've written letters about it. Again, you know, there is time on your side. You're still in the family, so you know, who knows what this may look like in a few years as she has some you know, life experience under her belt. This may be a situation you can return to and have an adult, mature conversation around. Or it might be a situation where, you know, it sort of stays in this surface level sort of space. But we'll see. Let's take a break and we'll be back.

If there could be a conversation have where there is clarity around this is not a close relationship. The intention of this is to be able to gather You know, like you know that. It sounds like your in laws know that just you may not be feeding into it being a close relationship. If you keep it at the gathering. You know, we're able to get together for this person's birthday, We're able to get together for this holiday. There is no communication between us and between This is all to you know, be family, to have kids, play with kids, and adults see adults. It's not for us to be in this you know, happy circumstance together because we don't have that type of relationship. So just being in someone's presence does not mean that you have a close relationship. It's really the intimacy in the relationship that shows where the closeness is. So if you show up to a family gathering, it doesn't mean that you have the same level of closeness with everyone there. It just means you're at the family gathering. So I do wonder is it possible for you to just be cordial in this conversation. I remembered a book that I read called Rebecca not Becky. It's a novel and it talks about just racial dynamics between you know, various cultures and these nuances that may happen and people don't even realize that that's offensive or that's some bias that you have, like these things happen, and if you are predominantly around your culture and you don't have other exposure, you may not even realize some of these things you're doing because it's you know, it's really normal. It's really normal to be, you know, kind of like in this box of this is how everything is, and this is what we can say, and this was what we could do and really buy into that I'm not doing anything wrong or I don't have to change anything. When an actuality in the general public, it's not okay, it is not a norm, it is inappropriate. And so you know, maybe having some idea that because of this family culture or because of you know, who she is, there may be a lack of understanding and you don't have to shift that for her. But I do wonder, you know, if you want to be in this family, how do you provide some clarity around hey and laws. I understand that you want us to have, you know, this relationship, and maybe it could be surface level, right. I think about, you know, people we work with, and I don't have a super close relationship with everyone that I work with, but some people I do, and that's based on who they are, and you know the things we have in common and our interests in all of these things, and we can do that. You know, we choose to turn that that sort of switch on on and off, like I can be in this sort of relationship with this person and then on this other way I choose not to and so you can have that switch on and off. Now, maybe you say every relationship I have it needs to be deeply connected. You know that's not going to be true. There are some surface level relationships that we have, and maybe the agreement is to have a surface level relationship with this in law. You know, you've highlighted what she's done. It sounds like you've written letters about it. Again, you know, there is time on your side. You're still in the family, so you know, who knows what this may look like in a few years as she has some you know, life experience under her belt. This may be a situation you can return to and have an adult, mature conversation around. Or it might be a situation where, you know, it sort of stays in this surface level sort of space. But we'll see. Let's take a break and we'll be back.

I'm torn because on one hand, I want to move forward and I want this drama out of my life. We haven't done any holidays in several years with his family in order to avoid a sister and my husband and my wedding, which should have been super happy moment for everyone, wasn't because his parents were cold and upset about the situation. Seemingly though they are able to have a warm relationship with his sister even though she's also responsible for this situation. On the other hand, it feels really toxic to engage with this ultimatum that it feels like we're in. I also can't help feeling that if I give in, everyone will have what they want, but.

I'm torn because on one hand, I want to move forward and I want this drama out of my life. We haven't done any holidays in several years with his family in order to avoid a sister and my husband and my wedding, which should have been super happy moment for everyone, wasn't because his parents were cold and upset about the situation. Seemingly though they are able to have a warm relationship with his sister even though she's also responsible for this situation. On the other hand, it feels really toxic to engage with this ultimatum that it feels like we're in. I also can't help feeling that if I give in, everyone will have what they want, but.

Me, what do you want in this situation? I hear that she apologized, Are you wanting change behavior? How will you give her space to reflect that her behavior has changed? Because if you you don't have any interaction with her, how will you even see the change behavior? If that's what you're wanting? Do you want maybe nothing to do with this situation? Has that been stated? I haven't, you know, necessarily heard that that has been stated, But I think there are some clarity needed around what do you actually want in this situation?

Me, what do you want in this situation? I hear that she apologized, Are you wanting change behavior? How will you give her space to reflect that her behavior has changed? Because if you you don't have any interaction with her, how will you even see the change behavior? If that's what you're wanting? Do you want maybe nothing to do with this situation? Has that been stated? I haven't, you know, necessarily heard that that has been stated, But I think there are some clarity needed around what do you actually want in this situation?

Now?

Now?

You know, if you feel like I'm in the middle of a family situation where they're like, you know, we want you to just be in relationship with her. You get to decide what that relationship looks like. It might be like, don't let me in a kitchen with her, But we're fine together at the table with eight other people. That's that's where we're at. If we're in a kitchen together, I'm just gonna get my little water and I'm gonna just smooth walk out of here. I don't want to, you know, I don't want to be in a space with her. It is your right to do that. But you are at the family gathering, you know. So I wonder in this situation, what could compromise on both sides look like it sounds like this is a situation. You do care about it. Hey, you wrote a letter about it. You want some advice about it. So you do care about this situation. So could it be to your benefit to figure out a way to be in it without giving in a way that would be harmful to you or that would cost further harm? You know, I think you know. Racial comments are one of those things where they hurt deeply and even after the person apologizes, it does say something about what they think about you overall. So maybe the apology wasn't enough. Maybe it really didn't remedy the situation. Maybe you're not ready to forgive her for this. Maybe you're still processing, and that's okay too. You don't have to quickly forgive because everybody else is ready for it. Maybe you still need time. You need to hear this, forgive people in your own time. I know some of us us we are on everyone else's timeline. You know you need to do this by Thanksgiving. You need to have this talk. You need to get over it with this person because everyone is, you know, watching this thing unfold. They're uncomfortable, they don't know how to respond. They're trying to manage their feelings, and what they think should happen to help them is that you get over this thing. But you can take your time forgiving people being upset with them. Those things take time, and there is no one person who could say, Okay, now's the time for you to be over it. You'll know when you know, and it might not be today, it may not be at the next gathering. The situations that happens in our family, we need to give them more time. We need to process them, and sometimes we have to ask people, please don't hurry me. I'm still processing. It's okay to say that, please don't hurry me. You need to hear this is an iHeart production hosted by me Nedra Glover to wob Our executive producer is Joe l. Bdique. Our senior producer and editor is Mia don Taylor. Send us a voice memo with your questions about boundaries and relationships at you need to Hear this at iHeartMedia dot com. Please be sure to rate our show wherever you listen to it, and share this episode with someone who needs to hear this. Talk to you next time

You know, if you feel like I'm in the middle of a family situation where they're like, you know, we want you to just be in relationship with her. You get to decide what that relationship looks like. It might be like, don't let me in a kitchen with her, But we're fine together at the table with eight other people. That's that's where we're at. If we're in a kitchen together, I'm just gonna get my little water and I'm gonna just smooth walk out of here. I don't want to, you know, I don't want to be in a space with her. It is your right to do that. But you are at the family gathering, you know. So I wonder in this situation, what could compromise on both sides look like it sounds like this is a situation. You do care about it. Hey, you wrote a letter about it. You want some advice about it. So you do care about this situation. So could it be to your benefit to figure out a way to be in it without giving in a way that would be harmful to you or that would cost further harm? You know, I think you know. Racial comments are one of those things where they hurt deeply and even after the person apologizes, it does say something about what they think about you overall. So maybe the apology wasn't enough. Maybe it really didn't remedy the situation. Maybe you're not ready to forgive her for this. Maybe you're still processing, and that's okay too. You don't have to quickly forgive because everybody else is ready for it. Maybe you still need time. You need to hear this, forgive people in your own time. I know some of us us we are on everyone else's timeline. You know you need to do this by Thanksgiving. You need to have this talk. You need to get over it with this person because everyone is, you know, watching this thing unfold. They're uncomfortable, they don't know how to respond. They're trying to manage their feelings, and what they think should happen to help them is that you get over this thing. But you can take your time forgiving people being upset with them. Those things take time, and there is no one person who could say, Okay, now's the time for you to be over it. You'll know when you know, and it might not be today, it may not be at the next gathering. The situations that happens in our family, we need to give them more time. We need to process them, and sometimes we have to ask people, please don't hurry me. I'm still processing. It's okay to say that, please don't hurry me. You need to hear this is an iHeart production hosted by me Nedra Glover to wob Our executive producer is Joe l. Bdique. Our senior producer and editor is Mia don Taylor. Send us a voice memo with your questions about boundaries and relationships at you need to Hear this at iHeartMedia dot com. Please be sure to rate our show wherever you listen to it, and share this episode with someone who needs to hear this. Talk to you next time