You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both. You know, when you're well known for doing one thing, it's not always easy to put yourself out there and try something else. Stay in your lane, people tell you, and yeah, look, I've heard that more than a few times. Certainly when I was first lady working on healthcare, or when I decided to run for the Senate myself. No first lady had ever done that before. Even writing a political thriller with my friend Louise Penny, or becoming a podcast host. All of those things ruffled some feathers of those who didn't think I was in the right lane. Well, today I'm talking with two incredible women who did switch gears and change lanes in their lives and careers. Later we'll hear actor, singer, author, advocate and former Miss America Vanessa Williams. But to start and rite in time for the Winter Olympics, I'm talking to track and field superstar Alison Felix. Last summer in Tokyo, Allison competed in her fifth Olympic Games, where she won two medals, making her the most decorated American track and field athlete in Olympic history with nineteen medals total. She's also the most decorated athlete regardless of gender in World Athletics championship history. Wow. Allison announced that those Olympics were her last, but at age thirty five, she is not slowing down. In addition to her incredible athletic achievements, Allison also started Safe, a woman's lifestyle sneaker company, and she wore the shoes when she competed last summer. She's also switched gears to become a vocal advocate for black maternal health and for women athletes. After experiencing trauma with the birth of her daughter, Cammy, who's now three. I was so delighted to have the chance to speak with her for this podcast. Hi, Hi, how are you? Oh? I'm great, And I gotta start by saying, how is that adorable daughter of yours? He is doing well. She is thriving, happy three year old, running all over the place, keeping me super busy. Um and yeah, life with her, it's going great. You know, you've done so many amazing things. I want to go back though, to the early days, because I read recently that you didn't actually start running track until you were in ninth grade, which you know it's really young, but still you know, a little bit later than some. And how did you get into it? What motivated you to actually get out there and start to run? What kind of kid were you? Well? I was a really active kid in like my neighborhood and my community, and my parents did an awesome job of keeping us really busy. But it wasn't until high school that I actually found track. And you're absolutely right as a as a runner and for an Olympian, that is a later start. And I kind of just stumbled into it, you know. I was going to high school and so I was brand new school and I didn't know anybody, and my family encouraged me to go out for the track team. Um My brother was at a different school and he was running track and he was doing really well, and so they thought, you know, might have some potential there. And so I went out to meet friends and I did. I met my best girlfriends that you know are still that to this day. But I also found the sport and I fell in love with it and I am like this, this was my thing. You know, the thrill of competition and you know, just having a sensible longing and it taught me so many lessons and so I'm so grateful that I did find it. You know, that word belonging is one that I've been thinking a lot about. Everybody has to have some place or people or passion that they feel gives them that sense of belonging well. And then two thousand three, Track and Field News named you the high school Athlete of the Year. Yeah, what did that feel like? You know, it was kind of surreal because it was like I had just started running, you know, a couple of years prior, and here things are happening quickly. And I felt like it was a kind of a turning point at that time because that's when I heard like, oh, you know, the Olympics are the next year, and I was like, is that a possibility for me? You know, like it's I didn't realize that, you know, you could go to the Olympics, you could make a career, you know, out of being a runner. And so it was kind of like a whole new world was open for me. And who did you turn to for advice? So here you are, Uh, You're getting named high school athlete of the Year, and somebody says well, you know, the Olympics are next year. How did you think that through? That's such a big decision for a teenager, it is. It was huge, and I'm so grateful because my parents, although they didn't know anything about the sport um, they were really committed to me and they were present. And I always tell you know, parents who are involved with their kids in sports, you know, the best way you can support them is to show up. You know, you don't have to be this super hard on your kids to specialize and do all these things. But my parents, you know, no matter if it was a really small meat or a big one, they were there. So when it came time to make a lot of decisions or think about the future, they were the typical parents that really thought things through, and we talked to people we knew, and we tried to understand what was going on. But I think the biggest thing was that I had that support system, and I had them in my corner, you know, and I could lean on them. And so you tried out for the Olympics, you made the American team and mettled in the two thousand for Olympics. Obviously, I'm talking to you now when you are the most highly decorated metal Olympic athlete and track and field ever. But what was that first time like going to the Olympics. Oh my gosh, everything was so new and exciting. I remember walking and opening ceremonies, and I was meeting people that had idolized, you know, growing up, and it just felt like a dream, you know, and a bit overwhelming. But at the same time, I think it lit a fire for me. It was like, Wow, this is what the Olympics are about, and if I really want to get to the next level and be successful on the stage, it's going to require a lot of dedication, a lot of sacrifice. We're taking a quick break. Stay with us. You've also suffered setbacks in your career. You know, in you you tore your hamstring. You couldn't compete for I think it was like nine or ten months, right and then right before the Summer Olympics you sprained your ankle. But you still competed and you still want two gold medals. By the way, what's it like for a world class athlete to have an injury? What's it feel like for you when you do something like tear your hamstring? Yeah, it's really challenging, And I think the hardest part is that you know what your body is capable of doing. You know, this is a lifestyle, and you train day in and day out for hours and hours, and so when it feels like your body betrays you and you try to do something that you used to do and not give a second thought, it's really challenging, you know, and then it takes you back to kind of square one. You have to do all the tedious things. You have to step away from the competition, and it's when no one is kind of seeing what's going into it, and no on is really cheering you on except your your inner circle. So it really requires you to do all the things and to take all the steps, and so it's really challenging, especially at inopportune times. Before the Games, I was trying to do something that very few people have done and running the two hundred, running the four hundred, and I felt like training was going amazing, and so to have that setback right before it was time to to get out there, it was it was really tough. But I think, you know, you challenge yourself in new ways. You know, it's about how can you pick up the pieces when adversity hits and and what are you gonna do with it? And sometimes I think it's more meaningful to show people when it's not perfect and when it's not pretty, you know how to get it done. Well. You have done that, and you did it especially for which I am incredibly grateful. Around your pregnancy, and first of all, you had a really traumatic birth experience in twenty nineteen when your daughter Cammy was born. You know, I've been an advocate for maternal mortality, decreases, you better birthing experiences, all of that, But it was a terrifying time for you, wasn't it. Yeah. I first have to just say thank you for all the work that you've done on those areas. It's so important. It was terrifying for me, you know, being an athlete, I think I really took my health for granted. You know, I've always been healthy and I've always known how to take care of my body, and so when I became pregnant, I didn't really give it too much thought. You know, I kept training, I felt strong, I felt good, And it was at thirty two weeks just going to a routine doctor's appointment. Right away, it became very concerning I was sent to the hospital for further monitoring, and it was there that I was diagnosed with a severe case of preclampsia. And never, in my wildest dreams what I think that I would be at risk for a complicated pregnancy, or that my life would be at risk or my child. You know, I just didn't even comprehend that, and so things started to spiral out of control and it got really scary, and um, you know, as at risk of having a stroke or losing my vision and all of these things that it just didn't even make sense. I had the birth plan of you know, I'm going to have a natural, beautiful birth experience, and uh, nothing went that way. I had an emergency C section, and you know, I was in the hospital for quite a bit, and my daughter spent a month in the nick. You and it was just a really heavy time for us to go through. You know, I'm so sorry that that you had to go through that, and I'm incredibly thankful that you came out healthy, your daughter came out healthy through all of that trauma. But also during your pregnancy, you tried not to let people know you were pregnant. I mean, here you are an elite athlete, You're training, You're you're still working hard every day. Um, what did that feel like that you had to in effect hide your pregnancy. It was the worst experience. I mean, you know, before all of that traumatic birth experience happened. Yeah, I was hiding my pregnancy. I was going through, you know, this fight with Nike about maternal protections and contracts, and it was just such a scary time because in sports, and specifically track and field, there had been this culture of silence around pregnancy and friends of mine, colleagues, they would be pregnant and their contracts would either be paused or they would be trying to secure a new contract and you know, hide their pregnancy. And so that was kind of my situation. I didn't have the offer on the table. I knew what had happened in the past, and so I was literally training four o'clock in the morning while it was still dark. And it just breaks my heart. Yeah, this time that should have been so happy and beautiful was really lonely and isolating. And I look back on it and it does bring me sadness to to know that that was the situation. I mean, what an horrible, outdated unfair caricature of pregnant women. I mean, it just drives me crazy hearing about it, you know, these years later. But you've said that before all this happened, that you know, you avoided speaking out on issues that mattered you. Know, you were an athlete. Your your accomplishments, your metals, your records, they all spoke for you. And I totally get that. And you also were really conscious of how you were perceived, particularly in the world that gives you contracts, that supports you, that you know, does what the whole athletic industrial complex does. But after your pregnancy you started speaking out and your letter to The New York Times, I read that, and oh man, I thought that was so brave, so important, so needed. In it, you talked about women athletes losing money and contracts during pregnancy, and you also then spoke out and even testified before Congress about the maternal health disparities that impact Black women disproportionately. So can you talk a little bit about how you decided to really use your powerful voice to speak on things that you had personal experience, but that you could then draw a larger audience for. Yeah, it was such a journey to get to that point. I mean absolutely what you said is it's true. I was the athlete that was hyper focused on performance. You know, I felt like my job is to get medals, to break records, and I was such a people pleaser, you know. I didn't want to rock the boat and I just wanted to stay in my lane and do what I did. And that worked for a long time. And then I started to go through these real life experiences and I started to really see kind of what was happening behind the curtain and understand that I was in a position that I had a platform and I could speak out. And I think the thing that really kind of shifted me to get to that point was having my daughter. You know, I started to think about, you know, the world that she is going to grow up in, and here, you know, I don't want her to have these same battles, you know, that have been happening for so long. And I got to a place where it was like, even if nothing happens, you know, I just deeply believe that this is the right thing to do and I have to speak out on it, and you know, I want to make her proud. And I also thinking about the other women you know, so many women came before me who didn't have the opportunity to speak out, and a lot of these situations there's in d a s and that's why it's happened for so long. And here I had the opportunity to really, you know, come forward and say this is what's happening. And so um, yeah, it took a long time, but grateful that I got to a place where I could get outside of my comfort zone and speak up. Well, thank goodness you did. And I totally get what happens to you when you have a child and in my case now three grandchildren, and you really do think about the world you want them to grow up in and what they'll inherit. And it seems almost you know, preordained in some way that you know, you and Serena Williams would both have had these really traumatic birth experiences because so many black women have had similar experiences. Some did not survive, some did not see their baby survive. And I was really pleased to see Vice President Harris take this on as an issue, and you know, members of Congress past start passing laws you testified on behalf of you know, better attention, better resources. This should not be and thank you for being the advocate that you are. And part of what you did to keep going further than you'd ever gone before was to found your own women's shoe company as as very explicitly an alternative to the male oriented sneaker companies that drive the sports world. So tell me about that. You know, where'd you find name? You know, why do you think we need our own shoe company? Yeah? So it actually happened very organically. You know, I was looking for a footwear sponsor. I had Athleta as a apparel sponsor, and I was very empowered by the way they did business, you know, their female lead, their mission, you know everything. And I was like, wow, if I could find this in footwear, that would be amazing. And started to search and I realized that here's another area where women are an afterthought and shoes aren't made for women. Um. And so I was talking with my brother and I was basically venting to him about like, wow, I've been to four Olympics and I don't have shoes to wear in the Olympics, Like this is so frustrating. And he looked at me and he was like, well, what if we did this ourselves? And I was like, that sounds so big, But the more I sat with it, I was like, Wow, instead of asking for change, here's an opportunity to be that change. And so we found in Sage, which is a lifestyle brand for women, and our first product is a lifestyle sneaker. And one of my proudest moments was being able to compete in the Olympics wearing my own brand, you know, shoes made by my company, and it was incredible. Um. The name comes from the French word seschet to move back and forth, but we use it in the context of the wave. It's a the safe wave is found in enclosed bodies of water and atmospheric pressure pushes that water to one side, and it's the safe wave that restores balance. And so we're looking to bring balance into the marketplace. You know, these are shoes designed and engineered by women for women. The female foot is actually has differences than a man's foot, and so we think that, you know, we should be a priority. So that's what we're doing. And we exist to see women and too no women and so that women will never feel how I felt when I was training at four o'clock in the morning, So that nobody would know that I was pregnant. Sou just really cited about it and looking forward to serving women. Oh I love that story and I love the name Sage. That really has a great feel to it. And now that you told us all what it means, thank you. Well. Once again, you broke several Olympic records this past summer in Tokyo, becoming the most decorated female trek and field athlete in Olympic history, all the way back to the Greeks, which didn't even allow women. It's just so extraordinary. How did this Olympic competition feel for you? There? You were wearing your own safe shoes, a mom, competing at the highest levels possible. What was that like compared to past games you were in? Yeah, oh my gosh, it felt so good. And it was much bigger than the race. You know, I went and I felt like I was a representation for women and for mothers and for anyone who was told that, you know, their best days were behind them. And that just gave me an added motivation. You know. I usually I am so stress about every little thing and every performance competition thing, and this time it was so free because I had heard from so many women, connected with so many people who just told me to get out there and enjoy myself and that they were proud of me. And it was like a weight was lifted off of my shoulders. And so I think it's the first time I felt so fulfilled, you know, I crossed the line. It was like, wow, I was told that this couldn't be done. And how many of us are told that, you know, like we we all we all can relate to that. And so it was so special to you know, to cross that line and in the shoes, and to know that my daughter was watching and that she has been on this journey and I can't wait to really, you know, tell her what it has been like and that she has also been that motivation to keep going. Oh my gosh. Well you also decided, uh and announced that this would be your last time competing at the Olympics. Was that a tough decision to make? Where you conflicted about it? It was mixed emotions, you know, I knew it was probably time, you know, on the Olympic stage. I I had such a beautiful journey, you know, five Olympic Games, and but I wasn't sure how it was going to feel I felt like I had no regrets. You know, I remember stepping on the track for that last race and just feeling a lot of joy. Ah. That is uh, you know, beautifully said. And I don't think you will ever slow down. I think you'll just change direction and take on new challenges. Thinking about developing any new hobbies or taking up something else. I don't know, are you. You know? The one thing I'm really looking forward to doing that I haven't been able to do is skiing. It's like the one thing every time we go out for the holidays, you know, I'm always the one at the bottom of the hill waiting for everybody. So I think that's one little hobby that I hope to take up. It's a great sport by no means a great or even a mediocre skier, but I loved and you know, I hope you will take it up and enjoy that. One of those small things that's kind of been on my list that it's like, oh, now I can actually do that. Of course, knowing you, I'll probably see you in the Winter Olympics in eight years. I mean, I'm not going to cut it out. I think we're safe there. Well, Allison, I cannot tell you how much I have enjoyed watching you as a great fan and admirer. Watching you in the Olympics and to see you become a mom and stand up for other mothers and stand up for yourself and stand up for what's right has been absolutely a joy. And uh, I just wish you the very best whatever direction you decide to go, I pill downhill wherever you end down. Well, thank you so much. It's been so nice to talk with you, and I just appreciate everything that you've done in the inspiration that you've been to me and to my daughter as well. To keep track of Alison Felix's next moves, you can follow her on Twitter. Now. Maybe you know Vanessa Williams as the chart topping singer of hits like Save the Best for Last, or maybe for her Emmy nominated role on the hit TV show Ugly Betty, or for one of her many starring roles on Broadway. I mean, seriously, Vanessa has been nominated for or one nearly every award there is, and she's worked in every facet of the entertainment industry, in addition to having her own fashion line and becoming a best selling author. And advocate. I'm fortunate to know Vanessa not just as a fan, but as a neighbor since she grew up and her mother still lives in Chappaqua, New York. The thing that first brought Vanessa Williams to national attention was her barrier breaking crowning as the first black woman to be Miss America back in nineteen three. Soon after, she was forced to resign when Penthouse Magazine published risque photos of her without her consent. But boy did she make a comeback. You know, I am so happy to have you on this show. Vanessa and Chelsea and I did the very last event in promoting our book of Gutsy Women with you as the moderator at Pace University on a very snowy winter night in December of twenty nineteen. And it was one of the very last things that I did, and I think you did before the world shut down. Right. Absolutely, we had a wonderful turnout. Of course, your book is amazing and so inspirational. And then uh we started twenty I went off to London what I has told you, I was going to start in City of Angels at the Garrick Theater. We went into rehearsal, and then we were in previews and then slowly people's arted calling and saying I'm sick, I canceled my flight, or oh, I'm nervous about coming because people are starting to get sick around me. And then Broadway closed that March twelve, and we closed the following Monday that the March, and then all theaters shut down for a while. So it was hard. It was hard. So how are you now? How have you gotten through this pandemic time that we've all been living through since then? Well, I was one of the lucky ones. You know. For instance, Renee Fleming, brilliant soprano. As a friend of mine, we started doing all these Zoom cocktail hours, which everybody did, and while we're sipping our wine, we're like, you know, we should do something together. Let's do it live from our living rooms. And then we started thinking about programs and shows, and then I was like, well, why don't we do it actually in a venue and do it socially distance And we end up doing a show at the Kennedy Center, something that we came up with a zoom and then you know, I did a Elephantzgerald Christmas Swinging Christmas thing that we did outside. I did a live from the West Side, a Broadway thing that we did, you know, socially distanced streaming, so you kind of change the game. And and I still got a chance to sing from my piano, you know, in the next room. And you made it work, so I didn't really lose much at all, and I had the convenience of doing most of my performing in my own house. I love that. I love that, you know, let's make it happen attitude. You also had that, and that's exactly, you know, one of the reasons why I admire you so much. You know, when I think about your early career, it really was very much focused in this place where we both live. And your parents were both music teachers, right, and you came from a musical family. You had the talent and the drive and the interest to do it yourself. And as you know everybody knows, you became the first black woman who was crowned Miss American. I remember watching that. I remember seeing you long before I knew I would live in your town. And god, you are, I mean, you are just so magnetic. And then you waged one of the great comebacks in entertainment history, and you're such a role model for not only women of color, but you know, young women and not so young women. Uh. You know, just recently, I released a master class about resilience, so you know, talk a little bit about what you have inside of you that keeps you up and going. Well, thank you for um that observation and also being compared and in the same group as you, because resilience is one of those things that I don't know whether the fire in the belly is what you're just born with, but I have it and I know you have it. And we both had very strong mothers that I do believe that I always wanted to please, which is still she's still eighty two and I'm still trying to fleeze her, which you know, it informs a lot. I mean, I look back at my marriages and like, you didn't like this person, Well guess what, I'm gonna marry him anyway. And I mean, like a lot of my choices, a lot of mother isches. But we did write a book together and kind of wanted to mention that. I mean, it has one of the great titles of any mother daughter memoir. You have no idea a famous daughter, her no nonsense mother and how they survived pageants, Hollywood, love loss, and each other. Yes, so you know, I think it gets passed down that my mother is super very resilient and just fought her way to the top of what she wanted to do. And well, she was born in Buffalo, you know, raising a very segregated place, and just fought to prove herself time and time again. So I think that watching her journey, seeing her resilience definitely was I would say the footprint for my ease at being able to always kind of trigger what I think comes naturally within my my bones. But also as I've grown, and you know, at fifty eight years old, I have way more wisdom. I realized that you're always going to be judged no matter you know from high school too, you're always going to be judged, and they don't know who you are, they don't know what you're thinking, they don't know what you're feeling. So just leave that judgment at the door and believe in yourself and know that, okay, you know what, they'll eventually know who I am. I don't get a chance to show them, and it's, you know, one of those things that I've just kind of used as my template to survive and to not give a dam. Really, yeah, you know, everybody's judged, but look, it's harder for women. There is still this you know, blatant double standard as somebody in the public eye. You know, you do getticism, and you know you can learn something. Sometimes your critics will tell you things your friends you know won't. But you can't let it pull you down and keep you down and make you doubt yourself and lose your confidence in yourself. And that's what I try to tell young people, particularly young women, all the time. I said, get used to it. You're gonna get criticized. It doesn't matter how hard you try and how good you do. You're gonna get criticized. Isn't that right? Absolutely? And also I mean what I tell young younger women, I say, you know, do the work. You'll get hired when people know that you show up in your professional and you can handle stress, you can solve problems. You're not incapable of of getting yourself out of a situation or managing a situation. Right, that's what your employer is gonna want to see, and that's what makes you a good team player, a good actor that they're going to bring onto an ensemble, that they know that you can handle it and be able to to be professional. You know, I've I've I've got four kids, and that's what I always try to say. Show up on time, do your best, and you'll always continue need to get hired. Yeah, do the work right, We'll be right back. I've always wanted to ask somebody who's in the spotlight as you are, how do you memorize all your lines? Do you have a trick? I do have a trick. So most of the time people will look at a page and think that they're gonna they do it by road and go over and over and over again, and as as soon as they stand up, they can't remember a thing. So you have to make your muscle memory work. So I do all myself on the treadmill, So I'll say it out loud while I'm walking on the treadmill, so when I'm in the scene and I'm walking, I still have it connected to my body. So that's one aspect. And then I also write out everything in scripts, so I'm actually again physically writing out the words that I'm speaking, and and just it's it's repetition, it really is. Yeah, but I love this idea of doing it on the treadmill. Another reason why I should get on the treadmill. Okay, I am being I am being, you know, encouraged and a little bit shamed, to be honest. You know, my my daughter ran the marathon, the New York City Marathon, uh, this past November, and I think all that athletic DNA skipped a generation, you know, if it just went right to her. You know. The other thing I just heard is that you've got a really fun new role. You switched gears again to become a judge on a drag queen singing competition called Queen of the Universe. What's that been like? It was amazing. We we shot it in London. It is a global singing competition for drag queens, which is always fun. Give me more sparkle, give me more glitter, give me more sequence and uh. These queens competed from India, you know, Brazil, China, France, the UK of course, the United States, Mexico, Netherlands, all over the globe. And the cash prize was two d fifty thousand dollars, which is amazing. That's a lot of money for contest on TV and they have to sing live. That was a big thing. No lip sinking. They are singing live. You know that's good. I mean the lip sinking, you know. Yeah, okay, that's fine, but really for these contests, people should sing live. I'm so happy you're doing that. Yeah, yeah, it was a lot of fun. You know, you've been incredible in the range of your roles your activities. Obviously you are a singer, as we all know, but also an actor, a fashion designer, a writer, an advocate. How have you switched between these, you know, various talents and these roles that you've had. I mean, I loved you in Ugly Betty, by the way I loved you. I mean I don't know, I loved and hated you, but I basically loved you. And so how what would you advise somebody who had, you know, a variety of interests and talents, because they do have to do the work, But how do they know what area to do the work in and how to build a career or how can they follow your example and be so versatile well, be open to um taking challenges and risks. A lot of things that I never thought I was going to be able to do came to me because of doing something else. Uh. So you know, yes, have a plan, yes, you know, have an outline of what you think you want to do in life, but then be open to the opportunities that you're not even aware of that will come. I'm at this age now or midlife. Have I made enough impact in my life? What am I going to do? And the advocacy portion of it really kind of fell in my lap. I would say my biggest role as of yet as as a founder of Black Theaty United, which happened um last year after the George Floyd murder and all of my friends from me Scoll Theater that we've been in shows with for over thirty years. Augia McDonald called me, Lashawn's called me, Norm Lewis, Brian Stokes, Mitchell. We were so stunned and so enraged. We said, what are we gonna do? We've got to do something. So we've been able to not only um have amazing platforms where hopefully we'll have you, be able to have you. Uh, but we've done town halls. We have a new deal for Broadway which is about e d I A b um and making sure that there is inclusion and equity within commercial theaters, and that advocacy part of my life, that real active boots on the ground. Starting a foundation just recently happened and I couldn't be prouder. And we're doing all the work, but it's it's a lot, but it means something. It's meaningful, and I'm happy to be a founding member of something that will be a legacy and I can pass on to my children, my grandchildren. You mentioned E D I B D I A b SO equity, diverse city, inclusion, accessibility and belonging. Oh, I love that. And we held seminars with theater owners, producers, directors, casting directors, union people, so people in front of the stage, behind the stage, owning this stage, about how there has been damaged, how you might not even be aware of the power of diversity in the dollars and marketing UH and allowing everybody to have a chance. The quote that I love is diversity is a fact. Inclusion is a choice, So make the choice to include us. That's really great. And you know, when I think about the pandemic and how disruptive and difficult it's been, I also think that a lot of people found these kind of silver linings. You all are such busy people, and so it's almost hard to believe that you could have from your various you know, vantage points and everything you were doing, found the time and the energy to build this, except for the stomach when everything was closed. But what a blessing that you did. Absolutely, As as we discussed a little bit earlier, you know, we both have had big public you know, moments that we wished we hadn't had. You know, some people when they go through things that are difficult, they get hyper cautious, they get really defensive, they kind of shut down. How how do you think about navigating life in the public eye. You've been in it a really long time. I've been in a really long time. It never gets easier, but you get better at it, don't you exactly? Um, and I certainly was very defensive for a long long time. I mean I became famous at twenty years old, so um, you know, uh, it really took me a long time to say, yes I'm talented, Yes I'm smart, don't put the beauty queen have that negate anything that is really me. So I battled that for years and uh it was probably once I got more success. My my career has always been I didn't know she could do that. Really, I didn't know she did. And every accomplishment I've been undervalued and underestimated, and every time I've had an accomplishment, oh, I didn't know if she could do that. So that gave that gave me the thrill. It's like, okay, you know what, just cut me out and I'm gonna come in and surprise you all. So you know, it's like with me, oh my gosh, oh wow, okay, And and it's it's and people are always trying to fit you into the box they've created, and it does get tiresome. I mean, do you feel, as such a successful artist in so many ways, do you feel like it's better not just for you because you've proven yourself over and over again, but for you know, young women coming behind. Well for me personally, I finally reconciled and instead of saying no, no, no, no no, I've said yes. I was Miss America. So the pageant thing, because I was I didn't want to be involved with anything with a crown and pageant all the kind of stuff. So that has taken me a while too. When people say you'll always be my queen, I would roll my eyes, like here we go again. And and now I think, Okay, I remember when I was twenty years old and black women would come up to me who are elderly and say, I never thought i'd see it in my lifetime and weep. I mean, when you are the first, that's so important to so many people. So I've embraced that now as opposed to saying oh, it didn't matter or oh please don't bring it up, which has helped me just like, Okay, that's my history, and that's let me accept it instead of trying to fight it all the time. So that's taken a lot of angst and defensiveness away. But for women again, it's it's about the judgment and being put in a box. And I mean you have to just use that fuel for your fire and just say I'm gonna I'm gonna prove to you, okay, got me out, guess what I'm coming for you and and and prove it. Yeah. Well, you can't change the past, and at some point, even if other people can't get on and move from it, you have to what is it that you're now fired up about? Doing. I mean, do you have some plans that you're looking forward to, some activities that get you up in the morning. Oh, there's always something that comes my way. Uh. I'm really excited about a Broadway project that has a lot to do with the White House. As soon as I have signed on. As soon as we get a theater, I will call you immediately because you will die. You will be there helping night. I guarantee you. I will give you seats and you will love it. It's a comedy, it's hilarious and you will get everything and I will play the first lady. So I'll have to call you for some tips. But it is really funny. I am more than happy to be, you know, a consultant and do whatever I can for you. I cannot tell you how much I always enjoy you. Always put a smile on my face. Vanessa. I just want to wish you and your one her full family all the best going forward. Thank you so much, and it's always an honor to talk to you. And I'm always amazed at what your next stage in life is, which is always amazing. So thanks so much. Well, I don't know about you, but I can't wait for this mysterious play that Vanessa Williams told us is in the works. You and Me Both is brought to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, with help from Juma Aberdeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Laura Olan, Lona Velmorrow, and Banita Zaman. Our engineer is Zack McNeice and the original music is by Forrest Gray. If you like You and Me Both, please tell someone else about it. And if you're not already a subscriber, what are you waiting for? You can subscribe to You and Me Both on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening and I'll see you next week.

You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both. You know, when you're well known for doing one thing, it's not always easy to put yourself out there and try something else. Stay in your lane, people tell you, and yeah, look, I've heard that more than a few times. Certainly when I was first lady working on healthcare, or when I decided to run for the Senate myself. No first lady had ever done that before. Even writing a political thriller with my friend Louise Penny, or becoming a podcast host. All of those things ruffled some feathers of those who didn't think I was in the right lane. Well, today I'm talking with two incredible women who did switch gears and change lanes in their lives and careers. Later we'll hear actor, singer, author, advocate and former Miss America Vanessa Williams. But to start and rite in time for the Winter Olympics, I'm talking to track and field superstar Alison Felix. Last summer in Tokyo, Allison competed in her fifth Olympic Games, where she won two medals, making her the most decorated American track and field athlete in Olympic history with nineteen medals total. She's also the most decorated athlete regardless of gender in World Athletics championship history. Wow. Allison announced that those Olympics were her last, but at age thirty five, she is not slowing down. In addition to her incredible athletic achievements, Allison also started Safe, a woman's lifestyle sneaker company, and she wore the shoes when she competed last summer. She's also switched gears to become a vocal advocate for black maternal health and for women athletes. After experiencing trauma with the birth of her daughter, Cammy, who's now three. I was so delighted to have the chance to speak with her for this podcast. Hi, Hi, how are you? Oh? I'm great, And I gotta start by saying, how is that adorable daughter of yours? He is doing well. She is thriving, happy three year old, running all over the place, keeping me super busy. Um and yeah, life with her, it's going great. You know, you've done so many amazing things. I want to go back though, to the early days, because I read recently that you didn't actually start running track until you were in ninth grade, which you know it's really young, but still you know, a little bit later than some. And how did you get into it? What motivated you to actually get out there and start to run? What kind of kid were you? Well? I was a really active kid in like my neighborhood and my community, and my parents did an awesome job of keeping us really busy. But it wasn't until high school that I actually found track. And you're absolutely right as a as a runner and for an Olympian, that is a later start. And I kind of just stumbled into it, you know. I was going to high school and so I was brand new school and I didn't know anybody, and my family encouraged me to go out for the track team. Um My brother was at a different school and he was running track and he was doing really well, and so they thought, you know, might have some potential there. And so I went out to meet friends and I did. I met my best girlfriends that you know are still that to this day. But I also found the sport and I fell in love with it and I am like this, this was my thing. You know, the thrill of competition and you know, just having a sensible longing and it taught me so many lessons and so I'm so grateful that I did find it. You know, that word belonging is one that I've been thinking a lot about. Everybody has to have some place or people or passion that they feel gives them that sense of belonging well. And then two thousand three, Track and Field News named you the high school Athlete of the Year. Yeah, what did that feel like? You know, it was kind of surreal because it was like I had just started running, you know, a couple of years prior, and here things are happening quickly. And I felt like it was a kind of a turning point at that time because that's when I heard like, oh, you know, the Olympics are the next year, and I was like, is that a possibility for me? You know, like it's I didn't realize that, you know, you could go to the Olympics, you could make a career, you know, out of being a runner. And so it was kind of like a whole new world was open for me. And who did you turn to for advice? So here you are, Uh, You're getting named high school athlete of the Year, and somebody says well, you know, the Olympics are next year. How did you think that through? That's such a big decision for a teenager, it is. It was huge, and I'm so grateful because my parents, although they didn't know anything about the sport um, they were really committed to me and they were present. And I always tell you know, parents who are involved with their kids in sports, you know, the best way you can support them is to show up. You know, you don't have to be this super hard on your kids to specialize and do all these things. But my parents, you know, no matter if it was a really small meat or a big one, they were there. So when it came time to make a lot of decisions or think about the future, they were the typical parents that really thought things through, and we talked to people we knew, and we tried to understand what was going on. But I think the biggest thing was that I had that support system, and I had them in my corner, you know, and I could lean on them. And so you tried out for the Olympics, you made the American team and mettled in the two thousand for Olympics. Obviously, I'm talking to you now when you are the most highly decorated metal Olympic athlete and track and field ever. But what was that first time like going to the Olympics. Oh my gosh, everything was so new and exciting. I remember walking and opening ceremonies, and I was meeting people that had idolized, you know, growing up, and it just felt like a dream, you know, and a bit overwhelming. But at the same time, I think it lit a fire for me. It was like, Wow, this is what the Olympics are about, and if I really want to get to the next level and be successful on the stage, it's going to require a lot of dedication, a lot of sacrifice. We're taking a quick break. Stay with us. You've also suffered setbacks in your career. You know, in you you tore your hamstring. You couldn't compete for I think it was like nine or ten months, right and then right before the Summer Olympics you sprained your ankle. But you still competed and you still want two gold medals. By the way, what's it like for a world class athlete to have an injury? What's it feel like for you when you do something like tear your hamstring? Yeah, it's really challenging, And I think the hardest part is that you know what your body is capable of doing. You know, this is a lifestyle, and you train day in and day out for hours and hours, and so when it feels like your body betrays you and you try to do something that you used to do and not give a second thought, it's really challenging, you know, and then it takes you back to kind of square one. You have to do all the tedious things. You have to step away from the competition, and it's when no one is kind of seeing what's going into it, and no on is really cheering you on except your your inner circle. So it really requires you to do all the things and to take all the steps, and so it's really challenging, especially at inopportune times. Before the Games, I was trying to do something that very few people have done and running the two hundred, running the four hundred, and I felt like training was going amazing, and so to have that setback right before it was time to to get out there, it was it was really tough. But I think, you know, you challenge yourself in new ways. You know, it's about how can you pick up the pieces when adversity hits and and what are you gonna do with it? And sometimes I think it's more meaningful to show people when it's not perfect and when it's not pretty, you know how to get it done. Well. You have done that, and you did it especially for which I am incredibly grateful. Around your pregnancy, and first of all, you had a really traumatic birth experience in twenty nineteen when your daughter Cammy was born. You know, I've been an advocate for maternal mortality, decreases, you better birthing experiences, all of that, But it was a terrifying time for you, wasn't it. Yeah. I first have to just say thank you for all the work that you've done on those areas. It's so important. It was terrifying for me, you know, being an athlete, I think I really took my health for granted. You know, I've always been healthy and I've always known how to take care of my body, and so when I became pregnant, I didn't really give it too much thought. You know, I kept training, I felt strong, I felt good, And it was at thirty two weeks just going to a routine doctor's appointment. Right away, it became very concerning I was sent to the hospital for further monitoring, and it was there that I was diagnosed with a severe case of preclampsia. And never, in my wildest dreams what I think that I would be at risk for a complicated pregnancy, or that my life would be at risk or my child. You know, I just didn't even comprehend that, and so things started to spiral out of control and it got really scary, and um, you know, as at risk of having a stroke or losing my vision and all of these things that it just didn't even make sense. I had the birth plan of you know, I'm going to have a natural, beautiful birth experience, and uh, nothing went that way. I had an emergency C section, and you know, I was in the hospital for quite a bit, and my daughter spent a month in the nick. You and it was just a really heavy time for us to go through. You know, I'm so sorry that that you had to go through that, and I'm incredibly thankful that you came out healthy, your daughter came out healthy through all of that trauma. But also during your pregnancy, you tried not to let people know you were pregnant. I mean, here you are an elite athlete, You're training, You're you're still working hard every day. Um, what did that feel like that you had to in effect hide your pregnancy. It was the worst experience. I mean, you know, before all of that traumatic birth experience happened. Yeah, I was hiding my pregnancy. I was going through, you know, this fight with Nike about maternal protections and contracts, and it was just such a scary time because in sports, and specifically track and field, there had been this culture of silence around pregnancy and friends of mine, colleagues, they would be pregnant and their contracts would either be paused or they would be trying to secure a new contract and you know, hide their pregnancy. And so that was kind of my situation. I didn't have the offer on the table. I knew what had happened in the past, and so I was literally training four o'clock in the morning while it was still dark. And it just breaks my heart. Yeah, this time that should have been so happy and beautiful was really lonely and isolating. And I look back on it and it does bring me sadness to to know that that was the situation. I mean, what an horrible, outdated unfair caricature of pregnant women. I mean, it just drives me crazy hearing about it, you know, these years later. But you've said that before all this happened, that you know, you avoided speaking out on issues that mattered you. Know, you were an athlete. Your your accomplishments, your metals, your records, they all spoke for you. And I totally get that. And you also were really conscious of how you were perceived, particularly in the world that gives you contracts, that supports you, that you know, does what the whole athletic industrial complex does. But after your pregnancy you started speaking out and your letter to The New York Times, I read that, and oh man, I thought that was so brave, so important, so needed. In it, you talked about women athletes losing money and contracts during pregnancy, and you also then spoke out and even testified before Congress about the maternal health disparities that impact Black women disproportionately. So can you talk a little bit about how you decided to really use your powerful voice to speak on things that you had personal experience, but that you could then draw a larger audience for. Yeah, it was such a journey to get to that point. I mean absolutely what you said is it's true. I was the athlete that was hyper focused on performance. You know, I felt like my job is to get medals, to break records, and I was such a people pleaser, you know. I didn't want to rock the boat and I just wanted to stay in my lane and do what I did. And that worked for a long time. And then I started to go through these real life experiences and I started to really see kind of what was happening behind the curtain and understand that I was in a position that I had a platform and I could speak out. And I think the thing that really kind of shifted me to get to that point was having my daughter. You know, I started to think about, you know, the world that she is going to grow up in, and here, you know, I don't want her to have these same battles, you know, that have been happening for so long. And I got to a place where it was like, even if nothing happens, you know, I just deeply believe that this is the right thing to do and I have to speak out on it, and you know, I want to make her proud. And I also thinking about the other women you know, so many women came before me who didn't have the opportunity to speak out, and a lot of these situations there's in d a s and that's why it's happened for so long. And here I had the opportunity to really, you know, come forward and say this is what's happening. And so um, yeah, it took a long time, but grateful that I got to a place where I could get outside of my comfort zone and speak up. Well, thank goodness you did. And I totally get what happens to you when you have a child and in my case now three grandchildren, and you really do think about the world you want them to grow up in and what they'll inherit. And it seems almost you know, preordained in some way that you know, you and Serena Williams would both have had these really traumatic birth experiences because so many black women have had similar experiences. Some did not survive, some did not see their baby survive. And I was really pleased to see Vice President Harris take this on as an issue, and you know, members of Congress past start passing laws you testified on behalf of you know, better attention, better resources. This should not be and thank you for being the advocate that you are. And part of what you did to keep going further than you'd ever gone before was to found your own women's shoe company as as very explicitly an alternative to the male oriented sneaker companies that drive the sports world. So tell me about that. You know, where'd you find name? You know, why do you think we need our own shoe company? Yeah? So it actually happened very organically. You know, I was looking for a footwear sponsor. I had Athleta as a apparel sponsor, and I was very empowered by the way they did business, you know, their female lead, their mission, you know everything. And I was like, wow, if I could find this in footwear, that would be amazing. And started to search and I realized that here's another area where women are an afterthought and shoes aren't made for women. Um. And so I was talking with my brother and I was basically venting to him about like, wow, I've been to four Olympics and I don't have shoes to wear in the Olympics, Like this is so frustrating. And he looked at me and he was like, well, what if we did this ourselves? And I was like, that sounds so big, But the more I sat with it, I was like, Wow, instead of asking for change, here's an opportunity to be that change. And so we found in Sage, which is a lifestyle brand for women, and our first product is a lifestyle sneaker. And one of my proudest moments was being able to compete in the Olympics wearing my own brand, you know, shoes made by my company, and it was incredible. Um. The name comes from the French word seschet to move back and forth, but we use it in the context of the wave. It's a the safe wave is found in enclosed bodies of water and atmospheric pressure pushes that water to one side, and it's the safe wave that restores balance. And so we're looking to bring balance into the marketplace. You know, these are shoes designed and engineered by women for women. The female foot is actually has differences than a man's foot, and so we think that, you know, we should be a priority. So that's what we're doing. And we exist to see women and too no women and so that women will never feel how I felt when I was training at four o'clock in the morning, So that nobody would know that I was pregnant. Sou just really cited about it and looking forward to serving women. Oh I love that story and I love the name Sage. That really has a great feel to it. And now that you told us all what it means, thank you. Well. Once again, you broke several Olympic records this past summer in Tokyo, becoming the most decorated female trek and field athlete in Olympic history, all the way back to the Greeks, which didn't even allow women. It's just so extraordinary. How did this Olympic competition feel for you? There? You were wearing your own safe shoes, a mom, competing at the highest levels possible. What was that like compared to past games you were in? Yeah, oh my gosh, it felt so good. And it was much bigger than the race. You know, I went and I felt like I was a representation for women and for mothers and for anyone who was told that, you know, their best days were behind them. And that just gave me an added motivation. You know. I usually I am so stress about every little thing and every performance competition thing, and this time it was so free because I had heard from so many women, connected with so many people who just told me to get out there and enjoy myself and that they were proud of me. And it was like a weight was lifted off of my shoulders. And so I think it's the first time I felt so fulfilled, you know, I crossed the line. It was like, wow, I was told that this couldn't be done. And how many of us are told that, you know, like we we all we all can relate to that. And so it was so special to you know, to cross that line and in the shoes, and to know that my daughter was watching and that she has been on this journey and I can't wait to really, you know, tell her what it has been like and that she has also been that motivation to keep going. Oh my gosh. Well you also decided, uh and announced that this would be your last time competing at the Olympics. Was that a tough decision to make? Where you conflicted about it? It was mixed emotions, you know, I knew it was probably time, you know, on the Olympic stage. I I had such a beautiful journey, you know, five Olympic Games, and but I wasn't sure how it was going to feel I felt like I had no regrets. You know, I remember stepping on the track for that last race and just feeling a lot of joy. Ah. That is uh, you know, beautifully said. And I don't think you will ever slow down. I think you'll just change direction and take on new challenges. Thinking about developing any new hobbies or taking up something else. I don't know, are you. You know? The one thing I'm really looking forward to doing that I haven't been able to do is skiing. It's like the one thing every time we go out for the holidays, you know, I'm always the one at the bottom of the hill waiting for everybody. So I think that's one little hobby that I hope to take up. It's a great sport by no means a great or even a mediocre skier, but I loved and you know, I hope you will take it up and enjoy that. One of those small things that's kind of been on my list that it's like, oh, now I can actually do that. Of course, knowing you, I'll probably see you in the Winter Olympics in eight years. I mean, I'm not going to cut it out. I think we're safe there. Well, Allison, I cannot tell you how much I have enjoyed watching you as a great fan and admirer. Watching you in the Olympics and to see you become a mom and stand up for other mothers and stand up for yourself and stand up for what's right has been absolutely a joy. And uh, I just wish you the very best whatever direction you decide to go, I pill downhill wherever you end down. Well, thank you so much. It's been so nice to talk with you, and I just appreciate everything that you've done in the inspiration that you've been to me and to my daughter as well. To keep track of Alison Felix's next moves, you can follow her on Twitter. Now. Maybe you know Vanessa Williams as the chart topping singer of hits like Save the Best for Last, or maybe for her Emmy nominated role on the hit TV show Ugly Betty, or for one of her many starring roles on Broadway. I mean, seriously, Vanessa has been nominated for or one nearly every award there is, and she's worked in every facet of the entertainment industry, in addition to having her own fashion line and becoming a best selling author. And advocate. I'm fortunate to know Vanessa not just as a fan, but as a neighbor since she grew up and her mother still lives in Chappaqua, New York. The thing that first brought Vanessa Williams to national attention was her barrier breaking crowning as the first black woman to be Miss America back in nineteen three. Soon after, she was forced to resign when Penthouse Magazine published risque photos of her without her consent. But boy did she make a comeback. You know, I am so happy to have you on this show. Vanessa and Chelsea and I did the very last event in promoting our book of Gutsy Women with you as the moderator at Pace University on a very snowy winter night in December of twenty nineteen. And it was one of the very last things that I did, and I think you did before the world shut down. Right. Absolutely, we had a wonderful turnout. Of course, your book is amazing and so inspirational. And then uh we started twenty I went off to London what I has told you, I was going to start in City of Angels at the Garrick Theater. We went into rehearsal, and then we were in previews and then slowly people's arted calling and saying I'm sick, I canceled my flight, or oh, I'm nervous about coming because people are starting to get sick around me. And then Broadway closed that March twelve, and we closed the following Monday that the March, and then all theaters shut down for a while. So it was hard. It was hard. So how are you now? How have you gotten through this pandemic time that we've all been living through since then? Well, I was one of the lucky ones. You know. For instance, Renee Fleming, brilliant soprano. As a friend of mine, we started doing all these Zoom cocktail hours, which everybody did, and while we're sipping our wine, we're like, you know, we should do something together. Let's do it live from our living rooms. And then we started thinking about programs and shows, and then I was like, well, why don't we do it actually in a venue and do it socially distance And we end up doing a show at the Kennedy Center, something that we came up with a zoom and then you know, I did a Elephantzgerald Christmas Swinging Christmas thing that we did outside. I did a live from the West Side, a Broadway thing that we did, you know, socially distanced streaming, so you kind of change the game. And and I still got a chance to sing from my piano, you know, in the next room. And you made it work, so I didn't really lose much at all, and I had the convenience of doing most of my performing in my own house. I love that. I love that, you know, let's make it happen attitude. You also had that, and that's exactly, you know, one of the reasons why I admire you so much. You know, when I think about your early career, it really was very much focused in this place where we both live. And your parents were both music teachers, right, and you came from a musical family. You had the talent and the drive and the interest to do it yourself. And as you know everybody knows, you became the first black woman who was crowned Miss American. I remember watching that. I remember seeing you long before I knew I would live in your town. And god, you are, I mean, you are just so magnetic. And then you waged one of the great comebacks in entertainment history, and you're such a role model for not only women of color, but you know, young women and not so young women. Uh. You know, just recently, I released a master class about resilience, so you know, talk a little bit about what you have inside of you that keeps you up and going. Well, thank you for um that observation and also being compared and in the same group as you, because resilience is one of those things that I don't know whether the fire in the belly is what you're just born with, but I have it and I know you have it. And we both had very strong mothers that I do believe that I always wanted to please, which is still she's still eighty two and I'm still trying to fleeze her, which you know, it informs a lot. I mean, I look back at my marriages and like, you didn't like this person, Well guess what, I'm gonna marry him anyway. And I mean, like a lot of my choices, a lot of mother isches. But we did write a book together and kind of wanted to mention that. I mean, it has one of the great titles of any mother daughter memoir. You have no idea a famous daughter, her no nonsense mother and how they survived pageants, Hollywood, love loss, and each other. Yes, so you know, I think it gets passed down that my mother is super very resilient and just fought her way to the top of what she wanted to do. And well, she was born in Buffalo, you know, raising a very segregated place, and just fought to prove herself time and time again. So I think that watching her journey, seeing her resilience definitely was I would say the footprint for my ease at being able to always kind of trigger what I think comes naturally within my my bones. But also as I've grown, and you know, at fifty eight years old, I have way more wisdom. I realized that you're always going to be judged no matter you know from high school too, you're always going to be judged, and they don't know who you are, they don't know what you're thinking, they don't know what you're feeling. So just leave that judgment at the door and believe in yourself and know that, okay, you know what, they'll eventually know who I am. I don't get a chance to show them, and it's, you know, one of those things that I've just kind of used as my template to survive and to not give a dam. Really, yeah, you know, everybody's judged, but look, it's harder for women. There is still this you know, blatant double standard as somebody in the public eye. You know, you do getticism, and you know you can learn something. Sometimes your critics will tell you things your friends you know won't. But you can't let it pull you down and keep you down and make you doubt yourself and lose your confidence in yourself. And that's what I try to tell young people, particularly young women, all the time. I said, get used to it. You're gonna get criticized. It doesn't matter how hard you try and how good you do. You're gonna get criticized. Isn't that right? Absolutely? And also I mean what I tell young younger women, I say, you know, do the work. You'll get hired when people know that you show up in your professional and you can handle stress, you can solve problems. You're not incapable of of getting yourself out of a situation or managing a situation. Right, that's what your employer is gonna want to see, and that's what makes you a good team player, a good actor that they're going to bring onto an ensemble, that they know that you can handle it and be able to to be professional. You know, I've I've I've got four kids, and that's what I always try to say. Show up on time, do your best, and you'll always continue need to get hired. Yeah, do the work right, We'll be right back. I've always wanted to ask somebody who's in the spotlight as you are, how do you memorize all your lines? Do you have a trick? I do have a trick. So most of the time people will look at a page and think that they're gonna they do it by road and go over and over and over again, and as as soon as they stand up, they can't remember a thing. So you have to make your muscle memory work. So I do all myself on the treadmill, So I'll say it out loud while I'm walking on the treadmill, so when I'm in the scene and I'm walking, I still have it connected to my body. So that's one aspect. And then I also write out everything in scripts, so I'm actually again physically writing out the words that I'm speaking, and and just it's it's repetition, it really is. Yeah, but I love this idea of doing it on the treadmill. Another reason why I should get on the treadmill. Okay, I am being I am being, you know, encouraged and a little bit shamed, to be honest. You know, my my daughter ran the marathon, the New York City Marathon, uh, this past November, and I think all that athletic DNA skipped a generation, you know, if it just went right to her. You know. The other thing I just heard is that you've got a really fun new role. You switched gears again to become a judge on a drag queen singing competition called Queen of the Universe. What's that been like? It was amazing. We we shot it in London. It is a global singing competition for drag queens, which is always fun. Give me more sparkle, give me more glitter, give me more sequence and uh. These queens competed from India, you know, Brazil, China, France, the UK of course, the United States, Mexico, Netherlands, all over the globe. And the cash prize was two d fifty thousand dollars, which is amazing. That's a lot of money for contest on TV and they have to sing live. That was a big thing. No lip sinking. They are singing live. You know that's good. I mean the lip sinking, you know. Yeah, okay, that's fine, but really for these contests, people should sing live. I'm so happy you're doing that. Yeah, yeah, it was a lot of fun. You know, you've been incredible in the range of your roles your activities. Obviously you are a singer, as we all know, but also an actor, a fashion designer, a writer, an advocate. How have you switched between these, you know, various talents and these roles that you've had. I mean, I loved you in Ugly Betty, by the way I loved you. I mean I don't know, I loved and hated you, but I basically loved you. And so how what would you advise somebody who had, you know, a variety of interests and talents, because they do have to do the work, But how do they know what area to do the work in and how to build a career or how can they follow your example and be so versatile well, be open to um taking challenges and risks. A lot of things that I never thought I was going to be able to do came to me because of doing something else. Uh. So you know, yes, have a plan, yes, you know, have an outline of what you think you want to do in life, but then be open to the opportunities that you're not even aware of that will come. I'm at this age now or midlife. Have I made enough impact in my life? What am I going to do? And the advocacy portion of it really kind of fell in my lap. I would say my biggest role as of yet as as a founder of Black Theaty United, which happened um last year after the George Floyd murder and all of my friends from me Scoll Theater that we've been in shows with for over thirty years. Augia McDonald called me, Lashawn's called me, Norm Lewis, Brian Stokes, Mitchell. We were so stunned and so enraged. We said, what are we gonna do? We've got to do something. So we've been able to not only um have amazing platforms where hopefully we'll have you, be able to have you. Uh, but we've done town halls. We have a new deal for Broadway which is about e d I A b um and making sure that there is inclusion and equity within commercial theaters, and that advocacy part of my life, that real active boots on the ground. Starting a foundation just recently happened and I couldn't be prouder. And we're doing all the work, but it's it's a lot, but it means something. It's meaningful, and I'm happy to be a founding member of something that will be a legacy and I can pass on to my children, my grandchildren. You mentioned E D I B D I A b SO equity, diverse city, inclusion, accessibility and belonging. Oh, I love that. And we held seminars with theater owners, producers, directors, casting directors, union people, so people in front of the stage, behind the stage, owning this stage, about how there has been damaged, how you might not even be aware of the power of diversity in the dollars and marketing UH and allowing everybody to have a chance. The quote that I love is diversity is a fact. Inclusion is a choice, So make the choice to include us. That's really great. And you know, when I think about the pandemic and how disruptive and difficult it's been, I also think that a lot of people found these kind of silver linings. You all are such busy people, and so it's almost hard to believe that you could have from your various you know, vantage points and everything you were doing, found the time and the energy to build this, except for the stomach when everything was closed. But what a blessing that you did. Absolutely, As as we discussed a little bit earlier, you know, we both have had big public you know, moments that we wished we hadn't had. You know, some people when they go through things that are difficult, they get hyper cautious, they get really defensive, they kind of shut down. How how do you think about navigating life in the public eye. You've been in it a really long time. I've been in a really long time. It never gets easier, but you get better at it, don't you exactly? Um, and I certainly was very defensive for a long long time. I mean I became famous at twenty years old, so um, you know, uh, it really took me a long time to say, yes I'm talented, Yes I'm smart, don't put the beauty queen have that negate anything that is really me. So I battled that for years and uh it was probably once I got more success. My my career has always been I didn't know she could do that. Really, I didn't know she did. And every accomplishment I've been undervalued and underestimated, and every time I've had an accomplishment, oh, I didn't know if she could do that. So that gave that gave me the thrill. It's like, okay, you know what, just cut me out and I'm gonna come in and surprise you all. So you know, it's like with me, oh my gosh, oh wow, okay, And and it's it's and people are always trying to fit you into the box they've created, and it does get tiresome. I mean, do you feel, as such a successful artist in so many ways, do you feel like it's better not just for you because you've proven yourself over and over again, but for you know, young women coming behind. Well for me personally, I finally reconciled and instead of saying no, no, no, no no, I've said yes. I was Miss America. So the pageant thing, because I was I didn't want to be involved with anything with a crown and pageant all the kind of stuff. So that has taken me a while too. When people say you'll always be my queen, I would roll my eyes, like here we go again. And and now I think, Okay, I remember when I was twenty years old and black women would come up to me who are elderly and say, I never thought i'd see it in my lifetime and weep. I mean, when you are the first, that's so important to so many people. So I've embraced that now as opposed to saying oh, it didn't matter or oh please don't bring it up, which has helped me just like, Okay, that's my history, and that's let me accept it instead of trying to fight it all the time. So that's taken a lot of angst and defensiveness away. But for women again, it's it's about the judgment and being put in a box. And I mean you have to just use that fuel for your fire and just say I'm gonna I'm gonna prove to you, okay, got me out, guess what I'm coming for you and and and prove it. Yeah. Well, you can't change the past, and at some point, even if other people can't get on and move from it, you have to what is it that you're now fired up about? Doing. I mean, do you have some plans that you're looking forward to, some activities that get you up in the morning. Oh, there's always something that comes my way. Uh. I'm really excited about a Broadway project that has a lot to do with the White House. As soon as I have signed on. As soon as we get a theater, I will call you immediately because you will die. You will be there helping night. I guarantee you. I will give you seats and you will love it. It's a comedy, it's hilarious and you will get everything and I will play the first lady. So I'll have to call you for some tips. But it is really funny. I am more than happy to be, you know, a consultant and do whatever I can for you. I cannot tell you how much I always enjoy you. Always put a smile on my face. Vanessa. I just want to wish you and your one her full family all the best going forward. Thank you so much, and it's always an honor to talk to you. And I'm always amazed at what your next stage in life is, which is always amazing. So thanks so much. Well, I don't know about you, but I can't wait for this mysterious play that Vanessa Williams told us is in the works. You and Me Both is brought to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, with help from Juma Aberdeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Laura Olan, Lona Velmorrow, and Banita Zaman. Our engineer is Zack McNeice and the original music is by Forrest Gray. If you like You and Me Both, please tell someone else about it. And if you're not already a subscriber, what are you waiting for? You can subscribe to You and Me Both on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening and I'll see you next week.