You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both, where I get to talk to people whose perspective I really want to hear from Right now today, that person is Gretchen Whitmer, the governor of Michigan. Gretchen Whitmer is someone whose career I have followed with great interest in admiration. She's a lifelong Michigander. She served in the Michigan State House was the state Senate minority leader for almost a decade. She is the second woman to serve as governor of Michigan and one of just nine women governors in the US. Just last night, on the heels of another record breaking week for coronavirus cases in Michigan, Governor Whitmer announced new restrictions to contain the virus, including stopping in person classes at high schools and colleges. As she rightly pointed out, the situation has never been dire. We are at the precipice and we need to take some action. This is not the first time she's made headlines for her leadership and taking strong, effective measures during this pandemic. People all over the world followed the story of the white supremacists and militia groups that plotted to kidnap and kill her just last month. I think it's safe to say that Michigan and Governor Whitmer are at the epicenter of some of the biggest issues affecting our country right now. I'm so glad she could join us in the midst of all of her other responsibilities for this very timely conversation. Hello Gretchen, Hi there, How are you, Madam Secretary? Oh my gosh. All the better for seeing you and for you making time to talk with me today. Are you kidding me? You're one of my heroes. I'm so glad to be with you. Well, I I really was so looking forward to talking with you. But you should also know that on my podcast, we ask listeners to recommend people that they would like to hear me talk with, and your name was by far at the top of the list. So it's not only a great personal pleasure and really honor to talk to you, but it's something that our listeners have been holding out for, and I am really looking to give you a chance to talk about some of what you've gone through and have done, because you know, speaking as someone who has been in the political firestorm and been in leadership positions and studied others who have been leaders. I'm incredibly impressed at your thoughtfulness, your courage, your commitment to leading and serving the people of Michigan. You really are a servant leader, governor, and that is about the highest company and I can come up with. As we're talking, it's Monday, November sixteenth. Last night you held a live briefing and announced that Michigan was again having to put in place new restrictions because of the massive surge in COVID cases. What are you seeing in the data and the science that led you to feel compelled to take this step. Well, one of the things that I think as a nation we're really struggling with is the vacuum of leadership in Washington, d c. And so it's really fallen to the governors to come up with strategies as individual states. And in the early days that meant we were competing with one another to get nine masks for our nurses and our doctors. We were overwhelmed. We're getting inconsistent, inaccurate information from the White House, where we had to correct it. We had to take pains to come up with our own strate of Gee's and in the midst of all that, I will say, I'm grateful that I've got relationships with my fellow governors, because there are many people who understand all the different pressures that we are confronting as we make these these hard decisions. You know, we were hit really hard early on in Michigan. Detroit was heating up like New Orleans, New York City, Chicago, and being so early on it was before we knew that there was going to be no national stockpile to help save the day or a national strategy, and so we were on our own. We took aggressive action. I listened to epidemiologists and public health experts from Michigan, but also nationally recognized experts, and we've really crushed oar we say, thousands of lives. We mitigated the economic pain that people were, you know, confronting, and that was being imposed on our businesses. But now here we are in the fall, there still isn't a national strategy. By the way, nine months later, and our COVID cases are climbing exponentially. Part of that is things like other states not taken this seriously, like South Dakota, where they had their big Sturgis motorcycle rally that has just brought COVID into all sorts of Midwest states. Part of it is rallies in swing states like Michigan, where the Trump campaign continued to come and not wear masks and packed people. And part of it is the fall. You grew up in the Midwest. Our temperatures are plummeting and we're all going inside. All of these things converging means we've got COVID spreading like wildfire all across the Midwest, and that's why we have to take action. Is especially important because we're in the midst of hopefully transition that ultimately will become a real transition. But there still isn't that leadership in Washington, d C. Your initial stay at home order back in March led to a political standoff with Republican legislators and your state Supreme Court. And on top of that, there were white supremacists and militia groups that marched on your capital, threatened you and others at that time, and were cheered on by the President. I can't imagine what it felt like that first time you saw these white supremacists and militia members converging on your capital. How did how did you respond to that? Governor? Yeah, so I was over in the Romney building. So that's named for Mitt Romney's father, right, who was governor of Michigan. Exactly, a Republican of you know, distinction and a kind which doesn't seem to exist much anymore. It's true. I I always tell people I'm from a mixed household. My dad was a Republican, but he was a Romney Miliican Republican, which means he's a Democrat now. But anyway, Um, I was there in the office building and I remember looking out and it was surprising because there were Confederate flags, which that's not the usual thing at the capital in Michigan. We're a Union state, right, I mean, we're proud of the role that we played in the Civil War. We had Nazi symbolism. There were dolls with dark hair hanging from nooses that were depicting me hanging you in effigy, right exactly. That's happened to me, by the way, So I can I can relate sadly to what you went through. I know you can, I mean, And it culminated right in just a few weeks ago, people channing to lock her up about me. So I know, I know you know this better than anybody, but it was really stunning to see. We were in the midst of the early days of this global pandemic. It was ravaging our state. People were dying, our hospitals were filled, we were running out of ppe, and these groups were coming to other and it was like a Trump rally, it really was. There's literally a Trump parade flow that was there, and it was just really surprising because this virus is doesn't care what your politics are, it doesn't care who you voted for, where you live. Is a threat to all of us. And so when we saw that, and then people showing up with their automatic rifles in the capital, and they've been many times out on our front lawn at the residents where my teenagers, I had to explain why I'm getting death threats and what's happening. But every single time the President has mentioned me, has tweeted about me, we see more vitriol, more death threats. It's contributing to this really dangerous moment that culminated in kidnapping and murder plot. And just even last night when I made the statement about we have to tighten some things up to keep people safe. Scott Atlas tweeted at michigander should rise up. I mean it's still continuing even after this election. Well, Scott Atlas, for our listeners who don't know, is the neurologist from California who is one of the very few doctors, let alone, he's not an epidemiologist or an infectious disease specialist who promotes this idea of herd immunity. Let you know, literally millions die and Trump has uh you know, listened to him and moved him literally into the White House where he has issued absolutely false medical assessments, and as you point out, last night, after you made your announcement, urged people in Michigan to rise up protests, protect freedom, all of these slogans that we've come to hear. Ironically, last night at my house there was a big crowd of Trump supporters yelling and screaming, using bullhorns to you know, insult me in all kinds of exist misogynistic ways. Because there's no getting away from the fact that of all the governors that took very quick and restrictive action, you were the one that Trump went after you were the one that he called that lady and tried to diminish and demean. And as you just said, there were people who, let's be very blunt here, have been influenced by Trump and his form of destructive and dangerous leadership, who actually hatched a plot to kidnap and kill you. Now many of us followed the story of this plot in the news, But how did you learn about it. What was the experience you had when you were told about this plot and what happened from your perspective, I think I infuriated Donald Trump early on when I acknowledged that there was no national strategy to combat COVID nineteen. I think I said that back in March, right, speaking truth to power, And here we are nine months later, and they'd even give it up on having a strategy. They don't even try anymore, right, I mean, they don't even like to talk about COVID nineteen, much less work together to keep people safe. And so from that day forward, the online vitriol, the threats had started in earnest, but as this plot got more pronounced, as it had become, they've taken steps to actually see it out. The State Police briefed me on what was happening, maybe a few weeks before the world found out about it, and I had the opportunity to sit down with my family and talk a little bit about it, and to have some pretty hard conversations with my teenage daughters because I didn't want them to come across it or to see it on social media and to be worried. I wanted them to know, we know this is happening, We're safe, We're okay. But I'll be honest with you, I don't know if I've processed it yet. I haven't read all of the affidavits. When people say I can't believe they did this, for that, I generally I am not sure what they're talking about because I cannot be steeped in it. I have to conserve all of my energy to focus on the work at hand, which is about saving lives in the middle of this pandemic, and that's really what my mindset has been throughout this experience. We'll be right back. I mean, sometimes you just have to shut out the outside world when you have a real crisis that you're facing, as you have now for nine months. You can't get distracted. Those of us who have followed you. Admire you. I think did enough worrying for all you and your colleagues while you could keep compartmentalizing and getting on with your job. But you know, it raises such terrible, serious questions about where we are as a country, and if we look at our national picture right now, everybody who is willing to to be honest and forthright knows Joe Biden won this election. He is the president elect. Trump is refusing to concede, and no surprise here, he has continued to show a total lack of leadership while COVID numbers are rising so dramatically. And I think about some of the great leaders you've had in Michigan. John Dingle was a particular favorite of mine, of course, I'm a close friend of his wonderful wife, now Congresswoman Debbie Dingle. And he said something that I have gone back to over and over. He said, in democratic government, elected officials do not have power. They hold power in trust for the people who elected them. That's exactly what you're doing. As such, a contrast with Donald Trump, what does power mean to you, especially at this moment? Well, a wonderful question. I'm not sure I have a wonderful answer. I'll just say that in the midst of all of this, I think crisis reveals people's character and what they're really all about. As I look across the country, there are some phenomenal governors on both sides of the aisle, stepping up, taking the mantle to keep the people of their states safe. None of us has the perfect response because the novel virus, and we have to be nimble, we have to learn as we go. We've got to be quick, we have to act quickly. But I think about governors who have count out to the Trump administration and the incredible cost that the people of those states have paid because of it. The economic costs, certainly, but the cost in terms of lives lost, in terms of lives forever impacted. And I never knew, I never contemplated all the challenges that we would have in But I think, my lucky stars that I've got a phenomenal team around me, that I was raised to be humble enough to know where my expertise ends, and to seek out the smartest people I can find in the midst of this crisis, to have relationships with my fellow governors that we can talk through and trouble, shoot and help one another navigate these times. So I think holding a position that's this powerful, especially when there's got to be so much executive action that takes place, is humbling and it is an incredible amount of responsibility. But I know that the actions we've taken have saved lives, and no matter what happens politically down the road, I will be able to be at peace with the work that we've done in this crisis. And I have colleagues who I don't know how they will be able to sleep at night a few years down the road, and I wouldn't trade places with them for anything. I agree with you. I think about people who not only at the highest levels of our national government, like the President, the Vice president and those who enable them, but people in your state legislature. You know, people you served with, Gretchen, You know people who you knew because you were in the House in Michigan, you were in the state Senate. I think about the people I served with who are still there in the U. S. Senate on the Republican side, who are so intimidated, so cowardly, so unwilling to say what I know they know better than, and to go along with Trump. What's that like for you? Dealing with people that you knew personally, you served with who just shut down because they're so afraid of whatever this Trump phenomenon is on the right and in the Republican Party right now. Well's it's so disappointing. I mean, it's more profound than that, but I'm struggling to find the right word. It is stunning to me that anyone would put themselves up for these important leadership positions and then sacrifice their best judgment to coddle someone else's ego or to preserve their own personal interests in a future election. I just I'm not built that way, and I don't think it's even a good political calculation. I mean, when you think about it, Biden Harris one, Michigan, you know that your approval rating is very high, commendably so, because your citizens are seeing what you're trying to do and approving of it. I just don't even get where the political advantage they think they are accruing comes from. Trump will be gone. I know he's not going to leave the scene. He has to keep feeding his ego and his malignant narcissism will require that. But all these others who have missed this leadership moment, who have sacrifice frankly, their reputations, their dignity. I don't see how it advantages them. Yeah, I think too. You know, one of the interesting things in this has been so many leaders who are frustrated because there are no easy solutions there. There is a political cost to every decision that is made because we are so polarized right now, there's such deep divisions. It really struck me as I watched the Circus. They did an episode and they focused on me, and they focused on Brian Kemp in Georgia, and he is getting protested, but he's getting protested because he's made decisions that have contributed to more loss of life. And so while I think of the protests here and certainly the threats on my life though, that's that's a whole new level and there's a lot to unpack there. As you mentioned, the gender issues are are right, but he is dealing with protests down there. And I think, if you're going to make a decision, you know a lot of people are going to disagree with you. Don't you want to make the one that is is the right call, that will say I would say, because I mean, really, I mean, why is that so complicated? I don't know, I don't know. And and especially you know, I think it especially calls me because oftentimes it will be that side that will lecture everyone else about, you know, life right, And I think that's particularly troublesome that they're making political decisions and it's costing American lives. We're taking a quick break. Stay with us, well, I know you have, you have a lot of important issues on your plate. I just want to wrap with two questions that I've been thinking a lot about. You know, in his victory speech, President elect Biden called for a nation united, a nation strengthened, a nation healed. Now that is music to my ears and I imagine to yours, and a lot of Americans are eager to begin that healing, but may not think it's possible. How do you think about that dilemma? What would national healing or even Michigan healing look like to you once we get through these months. We got more good news today about another vaccine. I'm hopeful that by April May we're gonna see widespread vaccination available. How do you think this healing that we all know we need could go forward. Well, we are in for a couple of hard months here right This winter is going to be very difficult, especially in the midst of a transition of leadership in Washington, d C. But I really do believe that it's important that we seek to understand. When I ran for governor, I got into all eighty three counties of Michigan, and Michigan is a big state, yes it is. But I got into all ad three counties because I wanted to connect with people that really understand. And I think that's important and now more than ever, and right now it's harder than ever because of COVID and because it's not safe to connect in the usual way. But I do think that that's a big part of it. I think was Bobby Kennedy said after Martin Luther King was killed that we must seek to understand. And I think that's a really important lesson. We have to see the humanity in one another. And that's why I loved the Joe Biden's speech from the Saturday after he was declared the victor. Me too, I think it's really important to see the humanity and one another, to seek to understand. And actually I think find some common ground instead of scorched earth of the last four years. Amen to that. And finally, how are you and your family planning to spend Thanksgiving this year? Can you share with us what you've got planned? Well, we're gonna zoom with my family. So my my sister lives not far from you. She's in Katona. Oh that's right up the road. I know. Well, that's why I said, if those people show up again and you want some backup, I'll sign my sister. She's even tougher than I am. But you know, we're gonna do a zoom with my sister and her family. They're staying in Katona. Usually we'd all be together, but it's just not safe and I'm discouraging people from getting together. So we'll do zoo and my husband and the girls and I are gonna each make a type of Christmas cookie. You have a contest to see who wins. Excellent. We gotta make it interesting and we'll watch the Lions and hopefully Detroit Lions will win. Well, I think that sounds like a perfect Thanksgiving. And you we usually have a huge crowd. Of course, we're not having it this year, so we're trying to divvy up. But I like the cookie contest. I mean, that's a really good idea. I may I may steal that from you. Well, Gretchen Whitmer, thank you so much for not just talking today, that's a minor piece of thank you in gratitude, but for your leadership, for your example of the kind of leadership that our country desperately needs right now. And I wish you and your family the happiest of thanksgivings and maybe a little bit of a breather from the heavy responsibilities that you are exercising. Thank you so much, Oh, thank you. It's spend an honor to be here with you. You and Me Both is brought to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran and Kathleen Russo, with help from Whoma Aberdeen, Nikki E Tour, Oscar Flores, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Lauren Peterson, Rob Russo, and Lona Valmorro. Our engineer is Zack McNeice. Original music is by Forest Gray. If you like the show, tell someone else about it. You can subscribe to You and Me Both on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your Podcasts. I wasn't the only one who was eager to hear from Governor Gretchen Whittner. A lot of our podcast listeners wrote in to suggest having her on the show, and as I told her, that really caught my attention. If you have ideas for guests, send us an email at you and me both pod at gmail dot com. Come back next week when I talked to three people who have dedicated their lives to something I love. Food, we'll hear from Samine nos Rat, Jose Andreas, and the owner of one of my favorite pizzerias in Troy, New York, Rocco di Fasio.

You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both, where I get to talk to people whose perspective I really want to hear from Right now today, that person is Gretchen Whitmer, the governor of Michigan. Gretchen Whitmer is someone whose career I have followed with great interest in admiration. She's a lifelong Michigander. She served in the Michigan State House was the state Senate minority leader for almost a decade. She is the second woman to serve as governor of Michigan and one of just nine women governors in the US. Just last night, on the heels of another record breaking week for coronavirus cases in Michigan, Governor Whitmer announced new restrictions to contain the virus, including stopping in person classes at high schools and colleges. As she rightly pointed out, the situation has never been dire. We are at the precipice and we need to take some action. This is not the first time she's made headlines for her leadership and taking strong, effective measures during this pandemic. People all over the world followed the story of the white supremacists and militia groups that plotted to kidnap and kill her just last month. I think it's safe to say that Michigan and Governor Whitmer are at the epicenter of some of the biggest issues affecting our country right now. I'm so glad she could join us in the midst of all of her other responsibilities for this very timely conversation. Hello Gretchen, Hi there, How are you, Madam Secretary? Oh my gosh. All the better for seeing you and for you making time to talk with me today. Are you kidding me? You're one of my heroes. I'm so glad to be with you. Well, I I really was so looking forward to talking with you. But you should also know that on my podcast, we ask listeners to recommend people that they would like to hear me talk with, and your name was by far at the top of the list. So it's not only a great personal pleasure and really honor to talk to you, but it's something that our listeners have been holding out for, and I am really looking to give you a chance to talk about some of what you've gone through and have done, because you know, speaking as someone who has been in the political firestorm and been in leadership positions and studied others who have been leaders. I'm incredibly impressed at your thoughtfulness, your courage, your commitment to leading and serving the people of Michigan. You really are a servant leader, governor, and that is about the highest company and I can come up with. As we're talking, it's Monday, November sixteenth. Last night you held a live briefing and announced that Michigan was again having to put in place new restrictions because of the massive surge in COVID cases. What are you seeing in the data and the science that led you to feel compelled to take this step. Well, one of the things that I think as a nation we're really struggling with is the vacuum of leadership in Washington, d c. And so it's really fallen to the governors to come up with strategies as individual states. And in the early days that meant we were competing with one another to get nine masks for our nurses and our doctors. We were overwhelmed. We're getting inconsistent, inaccurate information from the White House, where we had to correct it. We had to take pains to come up with our own strate of Gee's and in the midst of all that, I will say, I'm grateful that I've got relationships with my fellow governors, because there are many people who understand all the different pressures that we are confronting as we make these these hard decisions. You know, we were hit really hard early on in Michigan. Detroit was heating up like New Orleans, New York City, Chicago, and being so early on it was before we knew that there was going to be no national stockpile to help save the day or a national strategy, and so we were on our own. We took aggressive action. I listened to epidemiologists and public health experts from Michigan, but also nationally recognized experts, and we've really crushed oar we say, thousands of lives. We mitigated the economic pain that people were, you know, confronting, and that was being imposed on our businesses. But now here we are in the fall, there still isn't a national strategy. By the way, nine months later, and our COVID cases are climbing exponentially. Part of that is things like other states not taken this seriously, like South Dakota, where they had their big Sturgis motorcycle rally that has just brought COVID into all sorts of Midwest states. Part of it is rallies in swing states like Michigan, where the Trump campaign continued to come and not wear masks and packed people. And part of it is the fall. You grew up in the Midwest. Our temperatures are plummeting and we're all going inside. All of these things converging means we've got COVID spreading like wildfire all across the Midwest, and that's why we have to take action. Is especially important because we're in the midst of hopefully transition that ultimately will become a real transition. But there still isn't that leadership in Washington, d C. Your initial stay at home order back in March led to a political standoff with Republican legislators and your state Supreme Court. And on top of that, there were white supremacists and militia groups that marched on your capital, threatened you and others at that time, and were cheered on by the President. I can't imagine what it felt like that first time you saw these white supremacists and militia members converging on your capital. How did how did you respond to that? Governor? Yeah, so I was over in the Romney building. So that's named for Mitt Romney's father, right, who was governor of Michigan. Exactly, a Republican of you know, distinction and a kind which doesn't seem to exist much anymore. It's true. I I always tell people I'm from a mixed household. My dad was a Republican, but he was a Romney Miliican Republican, which means he's a Democrat now. But anyway, Um, I was there in the office building and I remember looking out and it was surprising because there were Confederate flags, which that's not the usual thing at the capital in Michigan. We're a Union state, right, I mean, we're proud of the role that we played in the Civil War. We had Nazi symbolism. There were dolls with dark hair hanging from nooses that were depicting me hanging you in effigy, right exactly. That's happened to me, by the way, So I can I can relate sadly to what you went through. I know you can, I mean, And it culminated right in just a few weeks ago, people channing to lock her up about me. So I know, I know you know this better than anybody, but it was really stunning to see. We were in the midst of the early days of this global pandemic. It was ravaging our state. People were dying, our hospitals were filled, we were running out of ppe, and these groups were coming to other and it was like a Trump rally, it really was. There's literally a Trump parade flow that was there, and it was just really surprising because this virus is doesn't care what your politics are, it doesn't care who you voted for, where you live. Is a threat to all of us. And so when we saw that, and then people showing up with their automatic rifles in the capital, and they've been many times out on our front lawn at the residents where my teenagers, I had to explain why I'm getting death threats and what's happening. But every single time the President has mentioned me, has tweeted about me, we see more vitriol, more death threats. It's contributing to this really dangerous moment that culminated in kidnapping and murder plot. And just even last night when I made the statement about we have to tighten some things up to keep people safe. Scott Atlas tweeted at michigander should rise up. I mean it's still continuing even after this election. Well, Scott Atlas, for our listeners who don't know, is the neurologist from California who is one of the very few doctors, let alone, he's not an epidemiologist or an infectious disease specialist who promotes this idea of herd immunity. Let you know, literally millions die and Trump has uh you know, listened to him and moved him literally into the White House where he has issued absolutely false medical assessments, and as you point out, last night, after you made your announcement, urged people in Michigan to rise up protests, protect freedom, all of these slogans that we've come to hear. Ironically, last night at my house there was a big crowd of Trump supporters yelling and screaming, using bullhorns to you know, insult me in all kinds of exist misogynistic ways. Because there's no getting away from the fact that of all the governors that took very quick and restrictive action, you were the one that Trump went after you were the one that he called that lady and tried to diminish and demean. And as you just said, there were people who, let's be very blunt here, have been influenced by Trump and his form of destructive and dangerous leadership, who actually hatched a plot to kidnap and kill you. Now many of us followed the story of this plot in the news, But how did you learn about it. What was the experience you had when you were told about this plot and what happened from your perspective, I think I infuriated Donald Trump early on when I acknowledged that there was no national strategy to combat COVID nineteen. I think I said that back in March, right, speaking truth to power, And here we are nine months later, and they'd even give it up on having a strategy. They don't even try anymore, right, I mean, they don't even like to talk about COVID nineteen, much less work together to keep people safe. And so from that day forward, the online vitriol, the threats had started in earnest, but as this plot got more pronounced, as it had become, they've taken steps to actually see it out. The State Police briefed me on what was happening, maybe a few weeks before the world found out about it, and I had the opportunity to sit down with my family and talk a little bit about it, and to have some pretty hard conversations with my teenage daughters because I didn't want them to come across it or to see it on social media and to be worried. I wanted them to know, we know this is happening, We're safe, We're okay. But I'll be honest with you, I don't know if I've processed it yet. I haven't read all of the affidavits. When people say I can't believe they did this, for that, I generally I am not sure what they're talking about because I cannot be steeped in it. I have to conserve all of my energy to focus on the work at hand, which is about saving lives in the middle of this pandemic, and that's really what my mindset has been throughout this experience. We'll be right back. I mean, sometimes you just have to shut out the outside world when you have a real crisis that you're facing, as you have now for nine months. You can't get distracted. Those of us who have followed you. Admire you. I think did enough worrying for all you and your colleagues while you could keep compartmentalizing and getting on with your job. But you know, it raises such terrible, serious questions about where we are as a country, and if we look at our national picture right now, everybody who is willing to to be honest and forthright knows Joe Biden won this election. He is the president elect. Trump is refusing to concede, and no surprise here, he has continued to show a total lack of leadership while COVID numbers are rising so dramatically. And I think about some of the great leaders you've had in Michigan. John Dingle was a particular favorite of mine, of course, I'm a close friend of his wonderful wife, now Congresswoman Debbie Dingle. And he said something that I have gone back to over and over. He said, in democratic government, elected officials do not have power. They hold power in trust for the people who elected them. That's exactly what you're doing. As such, a contrast with Donald Trump, what does power mean to you, especially at this moment? Well, a wonderful question. I'm not sure I have a wonderful answer. I'll just say that in the midst of all of this, I think crisis reveals people's character and what they're really all about. As I look across the country, there are some phenomenal governors on both sides of the aisle, stepping up, taking the mantle to keep the people of their states safe. None of us has the perfect response because the novel virus, and we have to be nimble, we have to learn as we go. We've got to be quick, we have to act quickly. But I think about governors who have count out to the Trump administration and the incredible cost that the people of those states have paid because of it. The economic costs, certainly, but the cost in terms of lives lost, in terms of lives forever impacted. And I never knew, I never contemplated all the challenges that we would have in But I think, my lucky stars that I've got a phenomenal team around me, that I was raised to be humble enough to know where my expertise ends, and to seek out the smartest people I can find in the midst of this crisis, to have relationships with my fellow governors that we can talk through and trouble, shoot and help one another navigate these times. So I think holding a position that's this powerful, especially when there's got to be so much executive action that takes place, is humbling and it is an incredible amount of responsibility. But I know that the actions we've taken have saved lives, and no matter what happens politically down the road, I will be able to be at peace with the work that we've done in this crisis. And I have colleagues who I don't know how they will be able to sleep at night a few years down the road, and I wouldn't trade places with them for anything. I agree with you. I think about people who not only at the highest levels of our national government, like the President, the Vice president and those who enable them, but people in your state legislature. You know, people you served with, Gretchen, You know people who you knew because you were in the House in Michigan, you were in the state Senate. I think about the people I served with who are still there in the U. S. Senate on the Republican side, who are so intimidated, so cowardly, so unwilling to say what I know they know better than, and to go along with Trump. What's that like for you? Dealing with people that you knew personally, you served with who just shut down because they're so afraid of whatever this Trump phenomenon is on the right and in the Republican Party right now. Well's it's so disappointing. I mean, it's more profound than that, but I'm struggling to find the right word. It is stunning to me that anyone would put themselves up for these important leadership positions and then sacrifice their best judgment to coddle someone else's ego or to preserve their own personal interests in a future election. I just I'm not built that way, and I don't think it's even a good political calculation. I mean, when you think about it, Biden Harris one, Michigan, you know that your approval rating is very high, commendably so, because your citizens are seeing what you're trying to do and approving of it. I just don't even get where the political advantage they think they are accruing comes from. Trump will be gone. I know he's not going to leave the scene. He has to keep feeding his ego and his malignant narcissism will require that. But all these others who have missed this leadership moment, who have sacrifice frankly, their reputations, their dignity. I don't see how it advantages them. Yeah, I think too. You know, one of the interesting things in this has been so many leaders who are frustrated because there are no easy solutions there. There is a political cost to every decision that is made because we are so polarized right now, there's such deep divisions. It really struck me as I watched the Circus. They did an episode and they focused on me, and they focused on Brian Kemp in Georgia, and he is getting protested, but he's getting protested because he's made decisions that have contributed to more loss of life. And so while I think of the protests here and certainly the threats on my life though, that's that's a whole new level and there's a lot to unpack there. As you mentioned, the gender issues are are right, but he is dealing with protests down there. And I think, if you're going to make a decision, you know a lot of people are going to disagree with you. Don't you want to make the one that is is the right call, that will say I would say, because I mean, really, I mean, why is that so complicated? I don't know, I don't know. And and especially you know, I think it especially calls me because oftentimes it will be that side that will lecture everyone else about, you know, life right, And I think that's particularly troublesome that they're making political decisions and it's costing American lives. We're taking a quick break. Stay with us, well, I know you have, you have a lot of important issues on your plate. I just want to wrap with two questions that I've been thinking a lot about. You know, in his victory speech, President elect Biden called for a nation united, a nation strengthened, a nation healed. Now that is music to my ears and I imagine to yours, and a lot of Americans are eager to begin that healing, but may not think it's possible. How do you think about that dilemma? What would national healing or even Michigan healing look like to you once we get through these months. We got more good news today about another vaccine. I'm hopeful that by April May we're gonna see widespread vaccination available. How do you think this healing that we all know we need could go forward. Well, we are in for a couple of hard months here right This winter is going to be very difficult, especially in the midst of a transition of leadership in Washington, d C. But I really do believe that it's important that we seek to understand. When I ran for governor, I got into all eighty three counties of Michigan, and Michigan is a big state, yes it is. But I got into all ad three counties because I wanted to connect with people that really understand. And I think that's important and now more than ever, and right now it's harder than ever because of COVID and because it's not safe to connect in the usual way. But I do think that that's a big part of it. I think was Bobby Kennedy said after Martin Luther King was killed that we must seek to understand. And I think that's a really important lesson. We have to see the humanity in one another. And that's why I loved the Joe Biden's speech from the Saturday after he was declared the victor. Me too, I think it's really important to see the humanity and one another, to seek to understand. And actually I think find some common ground instead of scorched earth of the last four years. Amen to that. And finally, how are you and your family planning to spend Thanksgiving this year? Can you share with us what you've got planned? Well, we're gonna zoom with my family. So my my sister lives not far from you. She's in Katona. Oh that's right up the road. I know. Well, that's why I said, if those people show up again and you want some backup, I'll sign my sister. She's even tougher than I am. But you know, we're gonna do a zoom with my sister and her family. They're staying in Katona. Usually we'd all be together, but it's just not safe and I'm discouraging people from getting together. So we'll do zoo and my husband and the girls and I are gonna each make a type of Christmas cookie. You have a contest to see who wins. Excellent. We gotta make it interesting and we'll watch the Lions and hopefully Detroit Lions will win. Well, I think that sounds like a perfect Thanksgiving. And you we usually have a huge crowd. Of course, we're not having it this year, so we're trying to divvy up. But I like the cookie contest. I mean, that's a really good idea. I may I may steal that from you. Well, Gretchen Whitmer, thank you so much for not just talking today, that's a minor piece of thank you in gratitude, but for your leadership, for your example of the kind of leadership that our country desperately needs right now. And I wish you and your family the happiest of thanksgivings and maybe a little bit of a breather from the heavy responsibilities that you are exercising. Thank you so much, Oh, thank you. It's spend an honor to be here with you. You and Me Both is brought to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran and Kathleen Russo, with help from Whoma Aberdeen, Nikki E Tour, Oscar Flores, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Lauren Peterson, Rob Russo, and Lona Valmorro. Our engineer is Zack McNeice. Original music is by Forest Gray. If you like the show, tell someone else about it. You can subscribe to You and Me Both on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your Podcasts. I wasn't the only one who was eager to hear from Governor Gretchen Whittner. A lot of our podcast listeners wrote in to suggest having her on the show, and as I told her, that really caught my attention. If you have ideas for guests, send us an email at you and me both pod at gmail dot com. Come back next week when I talked to three people who have dedicated their lives to something I love. Food, we'll hear from Samine nos Rat, Jose Andreas, and the owner of one of my favorite pizzerias in Troy, New York, Rocco di Fasio.