You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both, and welcome to the other side of this election. I don't know about you, but, boy, since Joe Biden and Kamala Harris were elected, I've gotten so many texts and emails and phone calls that are full of joy and hope and just good old fashioned relief. You know, there's a lot to try to figure out about this election. Who turned out in record numbers, where what they had to overcome to do that, really what all of it means for our president elect and for our democracy. So for help trying to figure it out, I'm checking in with three fantastic guests today. We have Ari Berman, a journalist who has written extensively about voting rights and voter suppression in this country. We'll also here from journalists Solida O'Brien, who has a really focused view of what the press has to do better in order to cover politics and elections. But first, I wanted to check in with someone who's getting a lot of much deserved gratitude right now for her role in Georgia, Stacy Abrams. You may remember that Stacy ran for governor in eighteen. I think it's absolutely fair to say that the election was taken from her because of all the shenanigans to prevent people from registering, prevent them from voting, make voting really difficult. But she never quit. She just went back to work organizing and speaking out about what needs to be done to help our democracy thrive. And while we saw it in action as Georgia turned blue, I just want to add my voice to the chorus and say thank you, thank you, thank you, not just for coming back on the podcast post election, but for everything you did to help Georgia turn blue and help so many people across the country have the energy to keep going. So on a scale of like one to ten, Stacy, how excited are you, I believe infinity is a number technically. I mean, look this, this is extraordinary. It's as you know, it's been a project I've been working on for a decade with so many other folks, really trying to build an infrastructure, raise the resources, and make certain that people did the investment. We have been able to finally bring all those pieces together. And I do not believe there's a new Americal scale. Hallellujah, exactly Hallelujah. When I think about the work that went into it, I have to just pause and say, this was truly an act of faith. You believed in the potential for George to have an election that would empower people to vote, that would give them a stake in their vote, and it's so exciting to see all that hard work pay off. What were some of the reasons why decades ago you started thinking about this and then you know, moving forward made it a real priority. Well, as you know, I am a daughter of the South. I was born in Wisconsin, but I grew up in Mississippi. I came of age in Georgia. I went to grad school in Texas, went to law school at our alma mater in the northeast at Yale. I came back South as soon as seemingly possible because I don't like cold weather. And when I got back to Georgia, we were going through both of political realignment with Republicans taking over, but we were also going through a demographic realignment that was just taking off. And by the time I joined the legislature in two thousand and six, when I became leader in I was deeply aware of the possibilities but also the obstacle. And so I actually put together a twenty one page deck when I became leader, where I laid out, here's the growth strategy for Georgia Democrats from and I would take that deck with me, and I paid for my plane ticket and went to see investors around the country who weren't going to give us no money. But I'm like, look, you're not gonna give me anything now, but I want to introduce myself and tell you about my plan. So when I come back, you'll do it. And I did it again and again, and and I want to give credit to so many other people who did this work. I think that the distinction was that for me, it was about thinking about how do you build the infrastructure. So it didn't matter who the candidate was, It didn't matter who was doing the work, as long as there was a structure so people could pour in and we had the money we needed. And so over time we were able to raise millions of dollars. And I've become a really good beggar, and we've been able to raise money for voter registration, for voter engagement, for voter turnout, but also training and recruiting young people to become involved in the party, building policy potential, thinking about the holistic notion of what it means to be a Democrat, not just winning elections, but how do you win hearts, minds, and how do you build sustainability. So it doesn't matter who's doing it, all of us are moving in the same direction, and it came to fruition in this election. But we can't forget that George has got two really important consequential Senate races coming up. They've gone to a runoff, and this election will be held in January, and actually it's going to determine whether President elect Biden will as president have a majority in the Senate so that they can get things done that will actually improve people's lives. Tell us about those two races. What can our listeners do to help the candidates win. Be part of continuing the Georgia movement that works so well in the presidential election and actually helped to propel both of our candidates into a runoff. I privileged to be friends with both candidates. John Assoff, who is in the race against David Purdue, who has just proven himself to be corrupt both intellectually and economically, someone who put his profits above the lives of people. Q and on Kelly Leffler, who has decided to abandon all principles and side with conspiracy theorists, and who also decided that money was more important than the mission she was supposed to have, which is serving Georgians. She is running against Raffael Warnock, the pastor of ebenez Or Baptist Church. Reverend Warnock and I've been friends for fifteen years and he was actually one of my partners in the New Georgia product when we started registering voters. Those two races are both essential in their own right, and they are working together, which is so critical. So the three things that need folks to do. One go to g a Senate dot Com. That way you can contribute to both candidates and to the work we're doing. The Fair Fight to protect the vote. Republicans noticed that we had an incredible infrastructure for oor turn out and for getting those ballots in. I have no reason to believe they're going to let it continue the way it is, so we need the resources so we can fight back and protect the right to vote. Number two to fair Fight Action dot Com, you can sign up to be a volunteer. We will help deploy you and direct you. Yes, we need everyone's help. Not everyone needs to come to Georgia, but everyone needs to pour into Georgia, and so we'll be able to connect you to volunteer opportunities. And the number three, reach out to anyone you know who is in Georgia, near Georgia, bin to Georgia, can spell Georgia and just let them know how important is election is. We have the chance to fix America. Yeah, just a small, you know, step in the development of mankind and womankind. We can fix Georgia. We can fix and we can fix America. Look, we can have access to healthcare, access to justice, and access to jobs. Those are the three things that are most essential. These are the two men who will get it done if we do our part and we don't relax, we don't relent, and we do everything we can to push them over the finish line. On January, Well, I think all of us are going to be following your lead once again, because we have, you know, a few short weeks to try to continue this positive movement that Georgia has demonstrated. You know, Stacy, I know how busy you are you've been, you know, rallying the troops, thanking people for everything that they've done. Have you had a minute just to sit back and take it in, put your feet up, relax at all? I think I have like fourteen minutes on Sunday. But look, we got some work to do. We got work to do. You're a woman after my own heart. Stacy Abrahams love you so much. Thank you for everything. Thank you, Secretary. As we heard from Stacy, our works not done yet, and all eyes are on Georgia. So if you want to pitch in visit elect John that's j O N dot com. That's j o N dot com. And Warnock for Georgia dot com. That's Warnock w A R N O c K. You've probably seen Ari Berman on MSNBC, or maybe you've heard his voice on NPR or read his writings and Mother Jones and other publications, because he is a senior reporter for Mother Jones and the author of the book Give Us the Ballot, The Modern Struggle for Voting Rights in America. Ari Berman, Hey, Secretary Clinton, good to see you. I am so happy to speak with you. You may not be a household name in many households in America, but you are in mine, and I want our listeners to know that you have been on the front lines of journalism about our elections and b pticularly about the challenges to voting, voter suppression tricks and Shenanigan's to keep people from voting, and you have a unique position from which to view what we have just experienced. And when I thought about who I wanted to talk to after the election, your name was at the top of the list. How how have you spent the past week since the election? You know, it feels like just yesterday but also a lifetime ago. Well, thank you so much, Secretary Clinton. And it's a real honor to be able to have this conversation with you, especially now. And when I think of the people that I wanted to talk to after the election, you are at the top of my list. So I'm really glad that we got to do this. So, I mean, on the one hand, it was a really chaotic and to the election, but on the other hand, it was a really successful and to the election when you think about it, because there were unprecedented threats to voting in this election. There were so many questions about would people be able to vote, would their votes be counted, And we saw that people turned out in record numbers, that their votes were counted. That yes, it took a few days too for all the votes to be counted, and some of the votes are still being counted. But the process worked, The system worked. It was a legitimate election that people came out, they voted, their votes were counted, and ultimately they changed the direction of this country. And so I know there's a lot of disinformation, there's a lot of noise, but from my standpoint, there were so many nightmare scenarios that I had about how this election played out, and for it to be basically over by Saturday morning was, from my standpoint, a huge success. I agree with that, Ari, and a couple of my takeaways that I wanted to run by you are that the election itself worked in part because people actually got to cast their votes. The kind of suppression tactic that we saw a lot of in twenty eighteen where people were literally disenfranchised, you know, they were not allowed to register. They were allowed to register, but then when they showed up, they were turned away because of you know, some alleged problem with their I d and I think we learned a lot from eighteen and we also were advantaged by having democratic office holders, for example in Wisconsin and Michigan, and bright spotlights on the office holders in Georgia and Arizona. So we learned that pre voting suppression is actually a more terrible successful tactic than trying to mess with the actual votes. And I'm really encouraged by that. Yeah, I think they're absolutely right. I mean, one of the things that happened in when you were running was a lot of the suppression was in back rooms and people didn't know about it. So it was the first presidential election fifty years without the full protections of the Voting Rights Act. Because the Supreme Court got to the Voting Rights Act into thirteen, it said that states of the long history of discrimination didn't have to approve their voting changes with the federal government. So that allowed new suppression efforts in the South and the West, and then you had states in the north like Wisconsin, passing new suppression efforts as well. But it didn't really get any coverage, and it was such a different story in I can't tell you the number of people that told me the day after the election, I finally understand what you're writing about exactly. And I think there really was a realization we're not going to allow history to repeat itself. And then the fact that Trump was so open about what he was doing, the fact that he said, if you made it easier to vote, a Republican would never be elected again. The fact that he said he didn't want to fund the Post Office because he didn't want to expand mail voting, the fact that he said we're going to send the lawyers in right after the election. All of that made people aware there's an attempt to try to prevent you from voting, so do everything you can, everything you absolutely can to make sure your vote is counted. So we had the kind of movement against suppression in that was missing. Unfortunately. You know, I know we don't have a lot of data yet. I've been searching for it myself. But do you have some preliminary information about how the vote broke down, who turned out, where they turned out, anything you can share with us. Well, I think George is a great example. I mean, it seemed like black voters in Georgia really propelled Joe Biden into what looks like a likely victory in that state. And I'm really glad you brought that up because there was so much suppression in Georgia, where you actually had the Secretary of State Brian kept also running for government and putting in place all of these policies, whether it's making it more difficult to vote, or closing polling places or falsely accusing Democrats of hacking the election that really kept Stacy Abrams from being the first black woman governor in US history. Then you had the primaries in Georgia back in June where people were still voting at twelve thirty am at night. And I think the pandemic really exposed a lot of this suppression. Because you're right, it got a little bit of attention in it got more mention. But I think the fact that you saw those lines in Milwaukee in April, when there were only five polling places instead of eighty, and you had people holding signs in line, that says this is ridiculous. People were so much more aware of the problems with our voting system and so they were willing to wait in eleven hour lines to be able to vote. They dropped their ballots off because they didn't trust the post office. They turned out on record numbers early, so there wouldn't be problems on election day. And I think all of that, the fact that there were so many organizations helping people vote, but also that voters themselves really listened and made a plan. When Michelle Obama said make a plan, people made a plan. And I think that's why we had, in a lot of ways, a more successful election than some of us were maybe preparing for. You know, a lot of political analysis, frankly endless political analysis and journalistic reporting, you know, focused on the white working class. That's the demographic that so many people after the election and we're trying to understand and trying to, you know, give a voice to But if you look at what happened in Wisconsin and Michigan and Pennsylvania, it was the black community that turned out that wasn't suppressed the way that it had been in sixteen. They really overcame what had been real barriers. And I think you know, you have written about that how they helped Biden win Wisconsin, and also I would argue Michigan and Pennsylvania. Yeah, that's absolutely right. I mean, Biden didn't win because of white voters. If if this election was the side of my people like you and me, Donald Trump would have had a second term. And so it absolutely was Black voters in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Michigan. It was Latino voters in Nevada and Arizona. It was Native American voters in Arizona. I mean, these are the groups that turned out in record numbers and turned out for Joe Biden. A lot of people learned from I mean, take Wisconsin. There was really no organizing going on in the black community in Milwaukee in to try to help people vote. There just wasn't the kind of energy on the ground in terms of organizing. And I think people realize, we can't let this happen again. We have to invest in these communities if we want to have the kind of turnout we need. And so there was a lot more resources invested and a lot more community groups working in places like Milwaukee. People were very, very resilient that that was not going to happen again, that the votes that were being targeted for suppression ended up being the votes that made the difference for Joe Biden in this election. We'll be right back. You know, I loved your tweet on November the six where you said black voters in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Georgia, and Latino voters in Arizona, Nevada ended the Trump presidency. Muslim and Arab voters also made a big difference in states like Michigan, Georgia, and Arizona. You're the first person that I saw say that. Can you explain it? Yeah, Well, I'm just thinking about all these different demographics. And there was so much attention on the white working class vote in the aftermath of the election, even into the run up of the whole question was you know what what you another guy in a mega hat? I mean really, I mean the New York Times did a story about white voters in suburban Atlanta, and they were actually quoting officials from the Republican Party as those white voters. And now they weren't spending any time talking to Muslim and Air voters in Dearborn, Michigan, or talking to Native American voters in Navajo Nation, or talking to black voters in Milwaukee. And these are the people that made the difference. These are also a lot of the communities that have been hit hardest by COVID and so just to think about you know, Navajo Nation, which voted for Joe Biden, the the amount of death and hardship that's happened there, And I really think for these unees it really was life and death. I think for some people it was just an election, but for others it was life and death. And I think the stakes were raised for the communities that were targeted by suppression, that were hit hardest by COVID, that have had their economies decimated, the election meant more to them. And I think there's a reason why they turned out in such high numbers, and I think there's a reason why they made such a big difference in the outcome. I want to ask you about the path ahead because you started using the term a couple of years ago in your writing about the Roberts Court gutting the Voting Rights Act, the unleashing of voter suppression tactics in a lot of states following that, and describing the people who were trying to turn the clock back as counter revolutionaries. That has always stuck with me, Ari, because you know, a lot of people understandably are slowly looking at what happened with the Voting Rights Act being gutted. With Citizens United, I was also the first candidate to run with since united in full force, and how much more work it takes to overcome a counter revolution. Can you say a little bit about your perception of where we are right now with the forces that are not going to sit silently by. They are persistent, if nothing else. Lindsey Graham, who I don't know what's happened to him, said, you know just the other day that you know, if if people keep voting, Republicans will never win. I mean, what an admission of exactly what they're afraid of. Yeah, I think I think that's absolutely right. I mean, I don't think we should believe that because people turned out in record numbers these barriers didn't exist. I mean, people turned out despite the fact the Voting Rights Act was got it. People turned out despite the fact that the Post office was sabotage. People turned out despite the fact that polling places were closed and people were turned away from the voting roles and they had to wait eleven hours to vote. I mean, people overcame these barriers, but it took a massive, massive effort to overcome them, and we still have those counter revolutionaries that are opposed to voting rights in some very powerful positions. We now not only have a five to four court, we have a six to three chord that leads to the right. And so that is not good news for voting rights and that is going to be a very very difficult thing to navigate going forward. And I'm very concerned that they're going to further weaken the Voting Rights Act and they're going to further chip away at our democracy. As of now, Mitch McConnell is still in control of the Senate. That is going to make it very difficult to pass legislation to restore the Voting Rights Act or to make it easier to vote. Republicans are still in control at the state level of states like Wisconsin, of states like Pennsylvania. Some of these states have democratic governors. Some places like Texas and Florida do not. They have one party control heading into redistricting one which means they could draw even more egregious maps for the next decade. So the fight for democracy is not over. I really really think this is important that people not get complacent just because Joe Biden one that is one very very very important accomplishment. I mean, Joe Biden may have literally saved American democracy by becoming elected president, because who knows what would have happened under four more years of Donald Trump. He doesn't control the Supreme Court, he doesn't control the U. S. Senate, he doesn't control many of the states, or his allies don't control many of the states. And so all of those threats of democracy still exist, and we shouldn't ignore them just because Biden was elected. I already worry that we're having the totally wrong conversation after the election, because we're already in this place where Republicans are talking over and over about massive irregularities, and then now people are trying to say, disprove them right, and and it's almost like you're trying to disprove something that doesn't exist, as opposed to saying, this was not an election that we should repeat, we should not exactly again, we should not have these kind of barriers in front of voters again. And what are we doing to make sure that these barriers don't exist? And and I worry that all of this talk of de legitimizing the election all it's not going to change the outcome, and it's not going to prevent Biden from being elected. I do worry it's going to lead Republicans to double down on the voter suppression effort based on falsehoods and imaginary conspiracy theories. But they're going to convince themselves. Either they're gonna believe it, or they're going to be political opportunists, and they're gonna say, look at all the irregularities in Detroit or Milwaukee or Philly, and because of that, we have to institute even more barriers to prevent people from voting, as opposed to tearing those barriers down. It's so ridiculous. We've done study after study and by conservative, by liberal, by right, by left, by all kinds of think tanks, and there is very little fraud when it comes to the voter. I think there's a lot of fraud when it comes to the people setting up the elections and running them, as we have unfortunately seen. But I take exactly what you're saying. You know, it will be difficult for a President Biden to do much from the national level, with Mitch McConnell still, you know, standing in the way of everything that needs to be done, and it will be quite a challenge to get the Supreme Court to care about any of these issues. So I think we're going to have to have a state and local bottoms up kind of strategy, similar to the litigation that Mark Elias and others have been bringing to try to, you know, get into state courts, get into state constitutions, get into state laws, try to fix the you know, the problems at the state and local level. Do you agree with that? I do agree with that, and I think there are some states that are are really positive models. You look at Virginia, for example, when Democrats finally got control of both the governorship and the legislature of Virginia, they very very rapidly instituted policies that made it easier to vote. So Virginia had forty five days of early voting this year. For example, they got rid of the need to have a witness signature on your absolute ballot, which was very confusing to people. They repealed the state's photo ide law. They did all of these things to make it easier to vote, and there is record turn out in Virginia, and voting went very smoothly in Virginia. Didn't hear any real problems other than long lines, which was due to high turnout at the beginning of the election. And so I do think that that's really important. And I do think that there's going to be some places where we're going to see the kind of changes we need. In Michigan, for example, they're going to have an independent Registring Commission, so they're not gonna have the kind of jerrymandering that you see in the past decade. But in states where Republicans are in control, this is gonna be a long battle. And I think people have to draw the lesson that Stacy Abrams did after, which is that just because you lose an election, you don't stop organizing. Exactly, Well, I can't have a conversation with you without mentioning the electoral college. You know, on Thursday November five, two days after the election, you wrote truly insane that we're obsessing over votes in Georgia when Biden is leading by four million votes nationwide. Now that's a refle election about how the electoral college distorts our democratic process. Now, even though it's unlikely, do you think that there's any chance that we could change or even abolish the electoral college so that our elections for president reflected our elections for everybody else, the person with the most votes. And obviously I take this personally becomes the person who's elected. I mean, I would hope. So it was really crazy on an election night around eleven PM, when everyone was biding their teeth and wondering what was going to happen in all of these states. Biden pulled ahead in the popular vote, and you just knew his lead was going to grow and grow and grow, and and because states like California and New York and Illinois are becoming even bluer because Democrats are turning out even more votes in Texas, you knew that his margin was going to be four or five it could be six million votes while it's over. And when we spent so much time obsessing over polls in the run up to the election, it was always clear there was never any doubt that Biden was going to win the popular vote, just like there was never any doubt that you were going to win the popular vote, and your election was not a particularly close election if you look at at the popular vote, and and same with this election. And then this kept going on for days, right where we're talking about ten thousand vote margins and states, and we were wondering what was going to happen with the latest batch of results from Maricopa County when meanwhile, this popular vote number went from one million to two million, to three million to four million. And so I don't think the message from the election it should be, Oh, the electoral college works. I don't get rid of it because there was still an election that was decided by five or six states, and so many votes don't count. And so I think the quickest way to get rid of the electoral college would be for states to join the Interstate Popular Vote Compact, which basically says they will pledge their electors to the winner of the popular vote nationwide. Because you don't need legislation to do that, you just need states to sign on to it. And did in Colorado. Just Colorado just did that, exactly, just did that. The longer route, obviously, would be a constitutional amendment. It's not going to happen. It's not gonna happen any anytime soon. But the funny thing is, I don't really understand why Republicans are so invested in the electoral college when so many of their voters are frozen out too. I mean, if you're a Republican in California or New York, your vote really doesn't matter either when it comes to presidential elections, you don't really have any sort of saying. So basically, if if you live in thirty five states of the country, it's very, very unlikely that a presidential candidate's ever going to visit your state. And we had a broader map this year in the sense that Georgia wasn't play in Texas, was Arizona, but it wasn't a broad map. It was still ten states, right, And so I mean, you know how it is being in New York. I mean, people come here to ask for money, but nobody ever comes to ask for our votes. And same with California. Same if you live in Texas for the most part. And I just think that it's really really difficult to reconcile the electoral college with any kind of core democratic principles. I want to ask you a kind of question about Trump. He has done his best and will continue aidan and embedded by his allies to undermine the legitimacy of this election. What happens if he not only doesn't concede, which I don't think he will frankly, but tries to throw all kinds of roadblocks into the transition. He already has directed his officials not to cooperate with the Biden transition, which is a first, because you know, once the election is over, you're supposed to start cooperating so the incoming administration can get prepared. So what happens He refuses to concede, and and then what ari Well, the good news is that the president doesn't really have any authority over how votes are counted and how votes are certified, so there's really not a whole lot he can do except complaint. They're filing all of these lawsuits, but they're not really amounting anything. There's no evidence it's based on, and all the votes have basically already been counted already. So right now we're in the process of finishing the vote counts and all of these states there there might be a recount in Georgia, but nothing's going to take that long. Then those votes are going to be certified by state and local authorities pretty quickly. Some states it takes a week, some states stakes two weeks, some states it takes three weeks. So that's gonna happen relatively soon. Then electors are going to be pledged in December. December fourteenth is the date that electors are pledged, and I'm anticipating everything is going to be done by then, because we're not in a Bush two thousand situation. This is not a seven vote election. The closest state right now is ten thousand votes in Georgia, and litigation rarely, if ever, changes a margin that big. Then once the electors are are nominated, Congress is going to certify that result in early January, and Joe Biden is going to be the next president. So I think they're trying to slow the process down. And obviously you're trying to raise doubts about the process, but Trump doesn't actually control any aspect of that process, from the counting to the certification to what Congress does. Now, his allies, I'm sure are going to raise a state inc but I anticipate this process will play out as past processes do. And I'm sure you know, I mean, other than yourself, Joe Biden is probably the most prepared person to ever become president. So I mean, even if the Trump campaigns not cooperating with them, I'm pretty sure they know what to do in terms of a presidential transition, right, I mean, I agree right either way that he's going to be prepared to become president on January. Do you have any you know, final words about what you think listeners should be focused on as we go through a lame duck session, as we have a president who continues to undermine the legitimacy of our elections, and then when we get a new president, how we should be thinking about our democracy. Yeah. I would urge people to keep their eyes on the price. As John Lewis said, I mean, there's gonna be a lot of disinformation out there. I don't think we need to relitigate the outcome of the election. I think we just need to emphasize people voted in record numbers, their votes were counted, the system worked, there were no irregularities, And I don't think it's particularly productive to try to tweet back at Donald Trump anymore about what he's saying. I think it's time to move on and start to focus on the real solutions to our democracy. And that's how do we rebuild our democracy, not just after four years of Donald Trump, but after all of the attacks that have come from Republican controlled states, after the gutting of the Voting Rights Act. What is a real democracy reform agenda look like? And Joe Biden is going to be able to do some of that, right. Bill Barr is not going to be Attorney General, and there's gonna be a lot of stuff that they can do on an executive level to try to help people vote and rebuild our democracy. But we also need different people in control of the U. S. Senate if we're going to restore the Voting Rights Act. We also need different people in control of states or different outcomes and states if we want to prevent another decade of Republican gerrymandering. And we need to you is the momentum that we saw at the national level, at the state and local level, because if there's gridlock in Washington, then the state's really become a lot of the laboratories for a change. So so I would just urge people to think that this is a huge victory, but it's just one step in the process, and we really have to still do a lot more to make sure that everyone can vote, that everyone's votes count equally, and that we have a democracy that works for everybody instead of a select few. And we're getting closer to that point, but we still have a long way to go. That was so well said and Thank you so much, Jarry Berman for everything you've done to help explain the challenges to voting to help defend our democracy, and uh, you know, just keep going because, as you say, it's not over yet. We made a big step, but we've got to stay committed to the path we're on to preserve, protect, and expand our democracy. Thank you so much for talking with me today. Thanks so much, Secretary Clinton. It was a huge honor. Now I want to turn to another journalist, Solo Dad O'Brien. She's an award winning documentarian and journalist. She's the founder of Solo Dad O'Brien Productions, a documentary production company, and the anchor and producer of the TV show Matter of Fact with Solidad O'Brien. Hello, Solidad, I am so happy to talk with you and I'm looking forward to hearing your perspective on this election. Secretary Clinton, thank you, thank you for having me on your podcast. It's a real pleasure. You know, I wanted to talk to you for a lot of different reasons. Your perspective, your experience, your understanding of the interplay between the press and the public in an election like this one. And I guess I should start out asking you what you think of this election, What surprised you, what you draw from it? Uh, not much surprised me, I would say, except for the fact that this election has been a four year process. President Trump has never stopped running. And I think where the media has failed, although slowly kind of figured it out, is how do you handle a candidate who actually has no intention at all of kind of stepping into the job. So I think it's just been a very long and frustrating for years for me. I've focused a lot on mistakes I think the media has made. The only thing that has surprised me has been the degree to which members of Congress and sort of high ranking people in the GOP have really capitulated that has been a surprise. Well, I think you make two really important points, one about the GOP and the other piece about the press. I think you nailed it in a number of comments that I've seen you make over the years. It was apparently just too unbelievable for the press to accept what they saw right before their eyes, that this was a man who would bully and lie to whatever degree he thought benefited him. And I hope that there is now a reckoning of some sort. Yeah. I think the media requires a narrative change constantly, right, That's what allows you to say, well, breaking news, this thing has now happened, that dinge of tone, there's a new whatever um. And so I think because of that, there's always this concept that you know, maybe something is happening here because action is sort of what drives that breaking news agenda, if you will. And so I think that was part of it. And the other piece of it, to me was just this this idea of and I think it's related around money. It's just not expensive to put pundits on TV. When I was at CNN, for example, you pay someone somewhere around a hundred thousand dollars a year. But that meant for every show for an entire year. And I'm sure people are getting much more than that, and some are getting much less than that. But if you think about it, you now have this sunk cost of TV shows that just continue on and on and on with time, moving the characters around. As long as you have there's this side versus that side, and you create this sense of urgency and also conflict, which is a good way to drive viewership. The thing that I thought most interesting on election night was when finally they ditched all the pundits right and they said, let's go to Alleghany County and then talked to this person. And it was like, oh, now we're reporting. We're going to a person and actually finding out on the ground. No one's going to uh suss it out for us or give us their take or explain what the White House is doing. Just go to the voices on the ground. It's not brain surgery. It's reporting. But it does require money, live cameras, it requires reporters there. And so I was interesting to see that pivot and how much the quality improved when you removed all the noise of pundits and instead you just relied on regardless of their political background. I have no idea that Alleghany County lady, who's quite good. I don't know anything about or outside. She was a good interview, giving us good factual insight into what was happening in an important county in a very important state. We're taking a quick break. Stay with us, you know. I also wanted to mention that you have pointed out time and again that black women are often written out of the election narrative. That we are usually hearing, and we know they're the most reliable voters. And something you tweet it really spoke to me. Um you said, I would just like to point out that the cities at the center of the action right now, Milwaukee, Philly, Detroit, Atlanta virtually never have TV news crews falling over themselves to book quote regular folks unquote from there, or want to learn more about them or invite them onto their sets. Can you talk a little bit more about what you meant? The New York Times has an excellent article today on a Trump voter who's frustrated and wants people understand why he didn't vote. Provided article on the Trump voter for it wasn't there. Somebody did account and I think they found sixty over the I mean, it's insane, right, It's just you know, so I found that very frustrating because it's pretty clear that people don't want to have the Philly voter, because that's how I want to talk to especially if you consider how frequently disenfranchise those voters are right, like you'd sort of say, like, listen, I would fully understand if you didn't vote Native Americans, like who wants to stand in line for eleven hours, right Like, it's so challenging, and for some reason, I think because the New York Times especially felt like they missed the vote on the last election, they have really doubled down on this, and it's so tedious and ridiculous, you know, and I have always found it so weird to sort of parse through this, you know, who's responsible as opposed to a strategy that maybe the Democrats could think about of elevating all of these different groups and really hopeful they can figure out the in fighting um, which probably has some health to its, probably got some good points to it, but this idea, right like, I think you look at a state like Arizona, which was Latinos and Native Americans, right and I'm sure Cindy McCain schlepping around on behalf of them now President elect Biden. I'm sure she got some votes to and I'm going to guess in Arizona some Lincoln Project ads were effective. So I'm hopeful. It's hard. I mean, you know better than anybody, how do you build a constituency with people who don't necessarily see eye to eye. I think the point is a really critical one. Let's get away from slicing and dicing the electorate. You know, politics should be a process of addition, not division. And nobody owns the truth. Nobody can say, oh, well, you know, if only you listen to me, or oh no, if you only do that. So I think it's important that we, you know, have this debate about the path forward. And it's going to be especially important because sadly, at least as of now, you know, the Biden Harris administration is not going to have a Senate. In fact, they're going to have the same obstacle called Mitch McConnell that Barack Obama and Joe Biden no from their own prior experience. But I really have to ask you about kamala Um. Here we are, and it was thrilling to see her wearing that white suffragist suit, standing on that plant pants suit pants pants. So it was it goes all the way back a hundred years to the suffragists. But what does saying madam Vice President mean to you? I just think it's amazing to have an opportunity to show America in all of its diversity. I really do. I mean, I think often when we talk about diversity, we're sort of saying, well, black people are you know, latinos or we're really talking about this. And I actually would love to see a cabinet that just looks like America. And you know a lot of the times you'd see photos from inside the round table of people sort of you know, cow towing to President Trump and it was just all older white men, and it's just not the picture of a very diverse country. So just from that standpoint alone, I think it would be amazing. But you know, I'm a Delta, which is a black sorority that focuses on surface. She's an A K A. And I can tell you the A k s are going to or already and we'll continue to be insolved. There's always a little flashing anyway. And I was like, oh, now a Delta elect let's come on, get moving. Yes, but we're happy for the A K s. But yeah, I mean it's it's great, and I think it's I remember my daughter Cecilia, who's now about to start college. But when Barack Obama was elected, she's used to say, so, he's the first black man. I think she was about to say. I said, yeah, She's like, there hasn't been another one. I said, She's like, well, how many girls have never been I'm like, that's a bad news for you, honey, there's been no girls. No girls, because you know, and it does matter in the I think narrative about the possibility of what America is that really can have this opportunity as long as they work hard and take advantage of what's in front of them. So, you know, I think in that regard it's it's really important. Okay, So big question, what do you think this election tells us about the country we're living in and what kind of progress do you think can be made with you know, Joe Biden and Kamala Harris now going to be you know, in the White House. I hope one thing they focus on is taking those things that are norms, which is a terrible word because I don't think it ever connects to people. I don't think we walk around saying, well, that's a norm and it doesn't mean anything. So I think there are a lot of things in government that we all learned hatch act it's a norm and it has no actual teeth behind it. And I think probably the biggest thing we've learned and is how much hinges on norms which means you're relying on your colleagues to do the right thing. Sometimes they will, sometimes they won't. So maybe those norms need to be strengthened so that there's actual accountability. And we also have to figure out just misinformation and disinformation. I really am frustrated with the media because I think they talk out of both sides of their mouths. You know, they elevate misinformation, They carry press conferences that are literally they will report later that it was fully alive while while also doing a special on misinformation, and doesn't mean you can't really do that and hope to be serving democracy. So I don't know how much more can be done without addressing those things first, because those, to me, having never been in government office, feel like the building blocks of helping people understand their democracy. And if we don't kind of create some kind of structure there, it's insane to me. And I'm not sure at the last minutes we've been talking this has changed, but that there's some lady who just decided she's not going to verify the result. Yeah, the lady in charge of helping the Biden team transition into the new administration has decided. I'm sure having been told by the Trump White House that she's just not going to cooperate and you're not going to give them. But I would have never thought that was a thing like ID page seventy nine of whatever the handbook is they give you all when you go into governments, you would say like, yeah, item seven, top five. Well, but I really like what you said about accountability, and I am very much in that camp that there has to be accountability for the breaches that we saw violating the Hatch Act, for example, but there were so many others. They would put people into positions that we're not qualified, they were not confirmed, and they would leave them there and courts would say no, they have to go, and then they would move them around. I mean, there was so much that just undermined the rule of law and the expectation every American, regardless of political party, should have that the people in the government are actually following the rules. But I think your average Americans thinks Bill bar is President Trump's lawyer. I think your average American feels like the d o J actually is there to do the president's bidding. I think we have failed, certainly in explaining, you know, basic mechanisms of how government works. So I don't I think most people don't really understand those issues. Uh So, I think a lot of work has to be done on that front as well. But that's why I think your kind of journalism is more important now than ever. So it because, for whatever combination of reasons, kids are not getting Civics education, people are not getting good information on which to make decisions, which is instrumental to how a democracy is supposed to work. So the press has a huge responsibility, and I can only hope and pray that they're going to step up better than they have in the last four years. Yeah, I wish I could tell you like, yep, you got it. I think that we're going to have to wait and see and if there's someone who can figure out how to make ratings out of not a lot of what made Trump and I know because I was in the room for many of these conversations made him appealing, right, was he'lled who knows what he'll do. He's It's great for reality TV. You never know, it's the wild card. It's going to be interesting. And I think we have to figure out how to get certainly news to move away from that and move into educating people. The one thing I can say is when we started doing that on our show, because we were forced to, our ratings grew massively. People actually wanted to understand the context, and so on that front, I do feel hopeful because I think people actually want information and context. Well from your lips to God's ears. My friend, I'm not sure how much he listens to me, but I just can't thank you enough. I just really wanted you to be part of this discussion. Thank you so much, thanks for having me. Before we wrap up, there's one more election update I wanted to share. If you listen to last week's show, you'll remember Brandon Thomas who was running for state representative in Tennessee. He ran a hard fought campaign, but sadly Brandon did not win that race, but he shared this message with us. Hi, everybody, this is Brandon Thomas. We didn't get the result we wanted in this past election. However, I am excited. I'm thankful that we have President elect Joseph Biden, and I think that means a lot for our country. Me I'm going to keep plugging. We know, Tennessee in and of itself is a red state. You know, we know that it's going to take some time, and we know that we can look to Georgia for that inspiration. You know, Georgia is right below us. Like if Georgia can do it, Tennessee can do it. We're going to figure out how to flip Tennessee blue again, and we're going to figure out how to make progress again. So you know, I'm still in this fight. I know a lot of other people are as well. Don't discount us. I'm so proud of Brandon and everyone who decided to jump into the arena in this election. You know, I've thought a lot about this election, and obviously I've thought a lot about the last election. In it's very reassuring to see the outpouring of votes by people who want to see a change and voted for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. You know, back in I never wrote a concession speech until it became necessary, but I did have a victory speech, and I went back and I looked at that because parts of it seemed so relevant to me today to Joe and com ALA's wonderful victory. And let me just read from it, because it's the tone and the tenor that I think was captured this weekend when so many people spontaneously poured out into the streets across America, singing and dancing and laughing, and still wearing masks in most places, but just so filled with joy. So here's what I had hoped to be able to say. With your children on your shoulders, neighbors at your side, friends, old and new, standing as one, you renewed our democracy and you changed its face forever. If you dig deep enough through all the mud of politics, eventually you hit something hard and true, a foundation of fundamental values that unite us as Americans. You proved that today in a country divided by race and religion, class and culture, and often paralyzing partisanship, a vision of a hopeful, inclusive, big hearted America prevailed. That is how I'm feeling today, and I hope you are too. You and me both is brought to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran and Kathleen Russo, with help from Juma Aberdeen, Nikki E Tour, Oscar Flores, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, Lauren Peterson, Rob Russo, and Lona val moorro our engineer Is Zack McNeice. Original music is by Forrest Gray. If you like the show, tell someone else about it. You can subscribe to You and Me Both on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We'd love to hear from you. Send us your questions and comments, or even ideas for future episodes to You and Me Both pod at gmail dot com. Come back next week when we'll be speaking with Governor Gretchen Whitmer, who has seen a lot of ups and downs of this election firsthand as governor of Michigan. Don't miss her, and don't miss it.