I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is you and me both. I know you may not want to hear this, but Thanksgiving is just around the corner, and with it comes lots of cooking, lots of eating, and at least in some households, lots of warnings about what topics we can't bring up with guests around the dinner table. You know, now more than ever, disagreements over everything from climate change to what books kids could read, to you know, just name it. Everything seems to derail what should be you know, pleasant festive gatherings. So what are we supposed to do? Talk about the weather all night? Fortunately, there are people out there who are highly skilled at navigating difficult conversations, and today we're going to hear from two of them. Later, I'll be speaking with United States Ambassador to the United Nations, Linda Thomas Greenfield, who's been doing the incredibly delicate.

I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is you and me both. I know you may not want to hear this, but Thanksgiving is just around the corner, and with it comes lots of cooking, lots of eating, and at least in some households, lots of warnings about what topics we can't bring up with guests around the dinner table. You know, now more than ever, disagreements over everything from climate change to what books kids could read, to you know, just name it. Everything seems to derail what should be you know, pleasant festive gatherings. So what are we supposed to do? Talk about the weather all night? Fortunately, there are people out there who are highly skilled at navigating difficult conversations, and today we're going to hear from two of them. Later, I'll be speaking with United States Ambassador to the United Nations, Linda Thomas Greenfield, who's been doing the incredibly delicate.

Work of diplomacy for decades.

Work of diplomacy for decades.

But first, I'm talking to a mom of three kids from Paducah, Kentucky, who co hosts a podcast that's all about tackling divisive topics. Sarah Stuart Holland started the Pantsuit Politics podcast with Beth Silvers back in twenty fifteen. When they began, Sarah was a self described progressive Democrat and Beth was a registered Republican. Now together they've waded through the last two presidential elections, the COVID pandemic, Harrius culture wars, sometimes agreeing, sometimes disagreeing, but always bringing honesty and empathy to the conversation. They've also written two books. The first, which has become a book club standard, is called I Think You're Wrong, But I'm Listening, A Guide to grace filled political Conversation. They followed that one up with now What How to move forward when we're divided basically about everything. I happen to know Sarah because she was an intern on my first presidential campaign, and I'm delighted to be speaking with her again.

But first, I'm talking to a mom of three kids from Paducah, Kentucky, who co hosts a podcast that's all about tackling divisive topics. Sarah Stuart Holland started the Pantsuit Politics podcast with Beth Silvers back in twenty fifteen. When they began, Sarah was a self described progressive Democrat and Beth was a registered Republican. Now together they've waded through the last two presidential elections, the COVID pandemic, Harrius culture wars, sometimes agreeing, sometimes disagreeing, but always bringing honesty and empathy to the conversation. They've also written two books. The first, which has become a book club standard, is called I Think You're Wrong, But I'm Listening, A Guide to grace filled political Conversation. They followed that one up with now What How to move forward when we're divided basically about everything. I happen to know Sarah because she was an intern on my first presidential campaign, and I'm delighted to be speaking with her again.

So welcome to the show.

So welcome to the show.

Sarah, thank you for having me.

Sarah, thank you for having me.

We know each other because you interned on my two thousand and eight campaign for president. Then you went on to work for a United States senator. But then you left Washington, DC for your hometown in Kentucky. I've been to your hometown. You and I have seen each other there in Paducah, Kentucky. First, what led you to move back there and Secondly, can you describe Paducah For people who've never been there, have no idea where it is.

We know each other because you interned on my two thousand and eight campaign for president. Then you went on to work for a United States senator. But then you left Washington, DC for your hometown in Kentucky. I've been to your hometown. You and I have seen each other there in Paducah, Kentucky. First, what led you to move back there and Secondly, can you describe Paducah For people who've never been there, have no idea where it is.

Well, first of all, everybody should come visit. It's a fabulous place. Paduca sits on the confluence of the Ohio and the Mississippi River, and so we you know, I can be in Illinois, I can be in Missouri, I can be Tennessee at any moment. And Paduca is a very interesting place. So I know, you know some of this history. We had a gaseous diffusion plant built in the fifties and sixties.

Well, first of all, everybody should come visit. It's a fabulous place. Paduca sits on the confluence of the Ohio and the Mississippi River, and so we you know, I can be in Illinois, I can be in Missouri, I can be Tennessee at any moment. And Paduca is a very interesting place. So I know, you know some of this history. We had a gaseous diffusion plant built in the fifties and sixties.

That really changed our community. It brought in a lot.

That really changed our community. It brought in a lot.

Of workers to build the plant, and then it brought in a lot of higher educated people to run the plant, and you know, they sort of demanded these parts of the town that didn't exist before, Like we have a symphony. This tiny little town in Kentucky has a symphony. And those factors really I think changed the fabric of the town over time. The plant has now been closed down, as you know, it's the long, decades long process to close up something like that. And in the nineties, I think because of some of those those affinities from the plant were closing, they had this artist relocation program where they would offer artists from around the country a chance to move to Paduca and buy a house for a dollar and people said.

Of workers to build the plant, and then it brought in a lot of higher educated people to run the plant, and you know, they sort of demanded these parts of the town that didn't exist before, Like we have a symphony. This tiny little town in Kentucky has a symphony. And those factors really I think changed the fabric of the town over time. The plant has now been closed down, as you know, it's the long, decades long process to close up something like that. And in the nineties, I think because of some of those those affinities from the plant were closing, they had this artist relocation program where they would offer artists from around the country a chance to move to Paduca and buy a house for a dollar and people said.

Yes, I would like to do that.

Yes, I would like to do that.

So we had this influence of artists. We have a big quilt festival that happens every year, and they really changed the town. I think that was seen as like a transactional thing, and there is not this anticipation that you invite an artist community into your town. And in the same way the plant changed the town, they changed the town. And so we are in a very red state, but Paduca proper, the city itself is pretty blue. And you know, when I moved back, I think your book It Takes a Village was way ahead of its time. I really feel like it's having its moment now. But that's what I wanted. I wanted a village. I wanted to have children, and I wanted to feel that support. I grew up with great grandparents and grandparents and you know, church community just wrapping its arm around me and rooting for me my whole childhood.

So we had this influence of artists. We have a big quilt festival that happens every year, and they really changed the town. I think that was seen as like a transactional thing, and there is not this anticipation that you invite an artist community into your town. And in the same way the plant changed the town, they changed the town. And so we are in a very red state, but Paduca proper, the city itself is pretty blue. And you know, when I moved back, I think your book It Takes a Village was way ahead of its time. I really feel like it's having its moment now. But that's what I wanted. I wanted a village. I wanted to have children, and I wanted to feel that support. I grew up with great grandparents and grandparents and you know, church community just wrapping its arm around me and rooting for me my whole childhood.

And I wanted that for my children. And so I was like, you.

And I wanted that for my children. And so I was like, you.

Want to move back to Paduca And he was like, I don't know if I do. And I was like, well, I'm gonna go, so I hope.

Want to move back to Paduca And he was like, I don't know if I do. And I was like, well, I'm gonna go, so I hope.

You joined me, and he did. He did.

You joined me, and he did. He did.

I moved back six months pregnant.

I moved back six months pregnant.

Was he also from Paducah?

Was he also from Paducah?

No, he's from Atlanta, Okay.

No, he's from Atlanta, Okay.

And so we moved back in two thousand and nine when I was six months pregnant with my first son, Griffin.

And so we moved back in two thousand and nine when I was six months pregnant with my first son, Griffin.

Wow.

Wow.

Well, you're an eighth generation Kentuckian, but you're also a progressive Democrat. And as you say, you're living in Paducah, which, as we have seen all across the country, more urban areas are often blue in a much larger suburban, exurban rural region that is red. And so you differ politically from you know, a lot of your fellow community members, even members of your own family. You've talked about, you know the fact that your father is a Trump voter. And how have you navigated your political differences with somebody that you really love? Has anything changed in your views or his?

Well, you're an eighth generation Kentuckian, but you're also a progressive Democrat. And as you say, you're living in Paducah, which, as we have seen all across the country, more urban areas are often blue in a much larger suburban, exurban rural region that is red. And so you differ politically from you know, a lot of your fellow community members, even members of your own family. You've talked about, you know the fact that your father is a Trump voter. And how have you navigated your political differences with somebody that you really love? Has anything changed in your views or his?

It's been a long journey, you know.

It's been a long journey, you know.

I think the zenith of our difficulty was definitely the twenty sixteen election.

I think the zenith of our difficulty was definitely the twenty sixteen election.

Like you live that too, it's obviously.

Like you live that too, it's obviously.

Yeah, I remember that, yeah, for sure, And I think it was a lot of people's experience, right. I mean at one point he tried to unfront me on Facebook, and I said, We're not We're not going to do that.

Yeah, I remember that, yeah, for sure, And I think it was a lot of people's experience, right. I mean at one point he tried to unfront me on Facebook, and I said, We're not We're not going to do that.

We're not going to do that.

We're not going to do that.

We're going to stay in relationship with each other. And that's what we talk about all the podcast, and you know, that's what we work through with our listeners, like this is a long game. We are trying to influence each other, not shame or in one conversation, debate each other into agreement, because it never works like that. I tried it for so long, for twenty years. I tried like sending the Atlantic long read in the policy paper and being like, see, this is how it should be, and thinking that's what was going to convince people. With my my dad, you know, my dad is loving and supportive, and he was thrilled that I was coming on this podcast to talk to you, Like it's just you know, he thinks I think he is so proud of me, which which fuels that connection and keeps the trust and keeps us focusing back in on each other because politics is not the entirety.

We're going to stay in relationship with each other. And that's what we talk about all the podcast, and you know, that's what we work through with our listeners, like this is a long game. We are trying to influence each other, not shame or in one conversation, debate each other into agreement, because it never works like that. I tried it for so long, for twenty years. I tried like sending the Atlantic long read in the policy paper and being like, see, this is how it should be, and thinking that's what was going to convince people. With my my dad, you know, my dad is loving and supportive, and he was thrilled that I was coming on this podcast to talk to you, Like it's just you know, he thinks I think he is so proud of me, which which fuels that connection and keeps the trust and keeps us focusing back in on each other because politics is not the entirety.

Of our relationship exactly, and it shouldn't be the entirety of anybody's relationship, But of course that requires either both individuals or both groups of people to do what you and Beth advocate, which is spend time with people that you don't agree with, try to develop trust between you, find other ways of relating.

Of our relationship exactly, and it shouldn't be the entirety of anybody's relationship, But of course that requires either both individuals or both groups of people to do what you and Beth advocate, which is spend time with people that you don't agree with, try to develop trust between you, find other ways of relating.

But it's hard.

But it's hard.

It is hard in it.

It is hard in it.

You know, we get listeners and people in our community and you can hear like, just can you just tell me the math equation for when it actually is okay to unfriend my uncle on Facebook? Like can if he comments this thing and he says this word, is it okay for me to cut him off?

You know, we get listeners and people in our community and you can hear like, just can you just tell me the math equation for when it actually is okay to unfriend my uncle on Facebook? Like can if he comments this thing and he says this word, is it okay for me to cut him off?

Right?

Right?

And we always say like, we can't give you that. You know, we wrote I think you're wrong, but I'm listening, and I joke like people would go okay, but I listened and I still think they're wrong.

And we always say like, we can't give you that. You know, we wrote I think you're wrong, but I'm listening, and I joke like people would go okay, but I listened and I still think they're wrong.

Now what do I do?

Now what do I do?

So our other book?

So our other book?

Now, what is when we really try to say okay, but what are we talking at? What relationship are we talking about? Are we talking about a stranger you're fighting with on Facebook? Are we talking about your dad? Are we talking about your coworker? Because all that different context of connection really matters, and we don't want it to. We want like the overarching thing to fuel the whole conversation, and we'll just debate it and obviously this is what's wrong or you're wrong, and it just can't be like that. If we want to work on each other, that's what we're doing. We're not trying to change each other. We're just trying to work on each other. And I have My dad has worked on me, and I have worked on him. What if my like most intense moments in the pandemic is when he decided to get vaccinated, which he was vehemently opposed to.

Now, what is when we really try to say okay, but what are we talking at? What relationship are we talking about? Are we talking about a stranger you're fighting with on Facebook? Are we talking about your dad? Are we talking about your coworker? Because all that different context of connection really matters, and we don't want it to. We want like the overarching thing to fuel the whole conversation, and we'll just debate it and obviously this is what's wrong or you're wrong, and it just can't be like that. If we want to work on each other, that's what we're doing. We're not trying to change each other. We're just trying to work on each other. And I have My dad has worked on me, and I have worked on him. What if my like most intense moments in the pandemic is when he decided to get vaccinated, which he was vehemently opposed to.

But it wasn't just me.

But it wasn't just me.

These circumstances of his life were working on him right, But he knew I was there to say this is the right thing. Like when he made that call for himself, he knew he could call me and I would say, I'm so glad you're doing this right.

These circumstances of his life were working on him right, But he knew I was there to say this is the right thing. Like when he made that call for himself, he knew he could call me and I would say, I'm so glad you're doing this right.

We're taking a quick break, stay with us. What do you think that people on both sides of this divide get wrong about the other? You know, people whose experiences are more like yours and mine? What do we get wrong about people like your dad and so many others who are good, decent, honorable people. I'm putting aside the malicious ones, the bad actors or bad actors, and what do those folks get wrong about people like us?

We're taking a quick break, stay with us. What do you think that people on both sides of this divide get wrong about the other? You know, people whose experiences are more like yours and mine? What do we get wrong about people like your dad and so many others who are good, decent, honorable people. I'm putting aside the malicious ones, the bad actors or bad actors, and what do those folks get wrong about people like us?

We all know the stereotypes that democrats are elitist and overly intellectual and judgmental and don't really care. And then I always say on our podcast, we all just sort of default to you don't care if the other side dies, Like that's like the that's where.

We all know the stereotypes that democrats are elitist and overly intellectual and judgmental and don't really care. And then I always say on our podcast, we all just sort of default to you don't care if the other side dies, Like that's like the that's where.

We go immediately. You don't care about it. I don't care about that. Like that's how we know.

We go immediately. You don't care about it. I don't care about that. Like that's how we know.

We've gone off the cliff is because suddenly we're all psychopaths and so we you know, we do that with each other, and I, living where I live, cannot do that. Like back to the twenty sixteen election, there was a woman in my child's daycare and she loved my baby just.

We've gone off the cliff is because suddenly we're all psychopaths and so we you know, we do that with each other, and I, living where I live, cannot do that. Like back to the twenty sixteen election, there was a woman in my child's daycare and she loved my baby just.

It brings to yours mud.

It brings to yours mud.

She loved my baby, you know, well, she loved Donald Trump, just loved him so much. I could not decide what she was and put all that characterization, that two dimensionality that we do on her. It was impossible to me because I was handing my child to her into her loving arms two days a week.

She loved my baby, you know, well, she loved Donald Trump, just loved him so much. I could not decide what she was and put all that characterization, that two dimensionality that we do on her. It was impossible to me because I was handing my child to her into her loving arms two days a week.

Right, But I couldn't do it.

Right, But I couldn't do it.

And I think that's what happens when you live in a place where where everyone politics are not closely aligned with your politics, because you just don't have that luxury of saying everybody feels this box.

And I think that's what happens when you live in a place where where everyone politics are not closely aligned with your politics, because you just don't have that luxury of saying everybody feels this box.

You know.

You know.

In twenty sixteen, I was on the ballot too. I ran for my city commissioner race and I won. It was a very very bittersweeted night that election night, and I thought, I know, there are people who voted Republican and then went down the ticket and voted for me, knowing.

In twenty sixteen, I was on the ballot too. I ran for my city commissioner race and I won. It was a very very bittersweeted night that election night, and I thought, I know, there are people who voted Republican and then went down the ticket and voted for me, knowing.

My politics, because they knew you, they understood where you were coming from.

My politics, because they knew you, they understood where you were coming from.

Yes, yes, you know.

Yes, yes, you know.

What you just said reminded me of one of the interviews that my daughter Chelsea and I did for our Apple TV plus program Gutsy. We interviewed a African American woman firefighter in the fire department of New York. There aren't very many of them, and there sure aren't very many who are African American, and we just absolutely adored her because she was funny and smart and very clear about why she was doing what she did and how she was trying to break down barriers for other women to come behind her. And she said to me one time, she says, you know, I've been in the FDNY for now. I think as I recall like fifteen sixteen years and I've moved up the ranks, and I'm in firehouses where I'm the only woman and often usually the only black person, And you know, I hear things and I see things. But I'll tell you one thing, if I or anybody else was ever in trouble, these guys would break down the door to save me or anybody anybody.

What you just said reminded me of one of the interviews that my daughter Chelsea and I did for our Apple TV plus program Gutsy. We interviewed a African American woman firefighter in the fire department of New York. There aren't very many of them, and there sure aren't very many who are African American, and we just absolutely adored her because she was funny and smart and very clear about why she was doing what she did and how she was trying to break down barriers for other women to come behind her. And she said to me one time, she says, you know, I've been in the FDNY for now. I think as I recall like fifteen sixteen years and I've moved up the ranks, and I'm in firehouses where I'm the only woman and often usually the only black person, And you know, I hear things and I see things. But I'll tell you one thing, if I or anybody else was ever in trouble, these guys would break down the door to save me or anybody anybody.

And so part of.

And so part of.

This is trying to hang on to the understanding that yes, we have different political views, but we are all human beings and we've got to make sure that doesn't get marginalized.

This is trying to hang on to the understanding that yes, we have different political views, but we are all human beings and we've got to make sure that doesn't get marginalized.

And that's what you try to do in your podcast.

And that's what you try to do in your podcast.

You know, for our listeners who may have family members, friends, co workers who they disagree with politically or have had a disruption in their relationship because of politics. What are some of your tips, What are some of the ways that you can try to restore some grit to your relationships and conversations.

You know, for our listeners who may have family members, friends, co workers who they disagree with politically or have had a disruption in their relationship because of politics. What are some of your tips, What are some of the ways that you can try to restore some grit to your relationships and conversations.

Well, you know Beth Silver's this is the best Silver's original. She always says, just remember you do not have to leave the Thanksgiving table with draft legislation, like let's just lower the expectations for these conversations, like, no one's looking for that from you and your coworkers or your family members. Right, So there's a lot of phrases that we've used that you know, I think really just helped to keep in your pocket. And this is another Beth original. Or she'll say, can you tell me more about that? When you're just in it and you're like, have we stepped into another planet?

Well, you know Beth Silver's this is the best Silver's original. She always says, just remember you do not have to leave the Thanksgiving table with draft legislation, like let's just lower the expectations for these conversations, like, no one's looking for that from you and your coworkers or your family members. Right, So there's a lot of phrases that we've used that you know, I think really just helped to keep in your pocket. And this is another Beth original. Or she'll say, can you tell me more about that? When you're just in it and you're like, have we stepped into another planet?

What's happening?

What's happening?

Because that's a question we get a lot. This all sounds lovely. What if we can't agree on reality?

Because that's a question we get a lot. This all sounds lovely. What if we can't agree on reality?

What do we do then?

What do we do then?

Right?

Right?

And what we always say is just say that, say isn't it interesting that you and I grew up in the same home and we can't even agree on this basic reality?

And what we always say is just say that, say isn't it interesting that you and I grew up in the same home and we can't even agree on this basic reality?

Right?

Right?

Isn't that interesting? Not that makes you bad and me good? Isn't that interesting? Because it is interesting if you're a student of human nature, that is interesting.

Isn't that interesting? Not that makes you bad and me good? Isn't that interesting? Because it is interesting if you're a student of human nature, that is interesting.

Yeah, it is.

Yeah, it is.

How did that happen?

How did that happen?

How did that happen?

How did that happen?

What are the reasons? Right?

What are the reasons? Right?

You know, one of the biggest issues caught up in political debate is of course abortion, and this is such a difficult, hot button issue for most people. So how do you talk about that in you know, conversations with neighbors, people in your community, people at church.

You know, one of the biggest issues caught up in political debate is of course abortion, and this is such a difficult, hot button issue for most people. So how do you talk about that in you know, conversations with neighbors, people in your community, people at church.

What I have learned for my time in Paduca. And honestly, the story I really always tell people is when I knocked on doors, on on five thousand doors in the election of twenty sixteen, which is an exercise in humanity, a lovely one. I had such little negative to extra. It's a great experience, it really, and you know what I always tell people, it is the building blocks of mental health. You are outside, you are moving your body, You're engaging with humans exactly. But everybody thinks it's so scary, but I'm like, it's not. But obviously I was a nonpartisan race in theory. In reality in twenty sixteen, everybody wanted to know who I was voting for, and I would say, well, I worked for Hillary Clinton, and that wasn't It just diffused it because what are they going to say, No, you didn't right, No you didn't like I guess I did. So that experience, and that's absolutely my experience with talking about abortion. So often when I get in conversations about abortion, I either talk about my time working for a Planned Parenthood or I talk about my own pregnancy loss where I had a pregnancy at twenty weeks where the fetes didn't have a heartbeat. Oh and I wrote a post actually before, right before the election in Kentucky where we defeated an abortion amendment that I said, like, if this, you know, this was not that long ago, but if it had happened now, I don't think I would have been able to get the surgery I got. I would have had to get sick first, you know. And it and I think women have gotten so open and transparent because of the work of generations of people, including yourself, making this conversation more open, making this conversation more transparent. And there's so many women standing up and saying, this is what happened to me. You can't argue with this, This is what happened to me. Would you want this to happen to you?

What I have learned for my time in Paduca. And honestly, the story I really always tell people is when I knocked on doors, on on five thousand doors in the election of twenty sixteen, which is an exercise in humanity, a lovely one. I had such little negative to extra. It's a great experience, it really, and you know what I always tell people, it is the building blocks of mental health. You are outside, you are moving your body, You're engaging with humans exactly. But everybody thinks it's so scary, but I'm like, it's not. But obviously I was a nonpartisan race in theory. In reality in twenty sixteen, everybody wanted to know who I was voting for, and I would say, well, I worked for Hillary Clinton, and that wasn't It just diffused it because what are they going to say, No, you didn't right, No you didn't like I guess I did. So that experience, and that's absolutely my experience with talking about abortion. So often when I get in conversations about abortion, I either talk about my time working for a Planned Parenthood or I talk about my own pregnancy loss where I had a pregnancy at twenty weeks where the fetes didn't have a heartbeat. Oh and I wrote a post actually before, right before the election in Kentucky where we defeated an abortion amendment that I said, like, if this, you know, this was not that long ago, but if it had happened now, I don't think I would have been able to get the surgery I got. I would have had to get sick first, you know. And it and I think women have gotten so open and transparent because of the work of generations of people, including yourself, making this conversation more open, making this conversation more transparent. And there's so many women standing up and saying, this is what happened to me. You can't argue with this, This is what happened to me. Would you want this to happen to you?

That is so well said.

That is so well said.

You know, I can tell what you're going to answer to this question, but I'm going to ask it because I feel it's important for people who, like so many right now, are confused, unsettled, angry, worried, all of those emotions. But based on your experience day to day in your community, do you feel optimistic about the future of our country. You know, I do, I know, but I want everybody else to know you do.

You know, I can tell what you're going to answer to this question, but I'm going to ask it because I feel it's important for people who, like so many right now, are confused, unsettled, angry, worried, all of those emotions. But based on your experience day to day in your community, do you feel optimistic about the future of our country. You know, I do, I know, but I want everybody else to know you do.

Yes, absolutely, absolutely, you know.

Yes, absolutely, absolutely, you know.

I I feel like this is a conversation I have with my thirteen year old all the time. You know, I jokingly say, when I got pregnant, I said, no, alex Pekeaton's allowed.

I I feel like this is a conversation I have with my thirteen year old all the time. You know, I jokingly say, when I got pregnant, I said, no, alex Pekeaton's allowed.

I did not expect to become the Alex pe Keaton. That is what happened.

I did not expect to become the Alex pe Keaton. That is what happened.

He went further left of me, and he gets so, you know, in that way that you do when you're young. It feels like how this is all terrible? Like how is any of this gonna get better? We were just having this conversation about climate change, and I said, hey, we just passed once in a generation climate change legislation that matters, and I know we don't feel it instantaneously, and that this work is long, but I you know, I believe in the beloved community. I believe that I drink from a well that I did not dig, and that people on the other end in front of me will hopefully benefit from things that I'm doing that I don't get to experience, and that connect. That's It's back to what we were talking about from the beginning. That connection. I believe in that. I feel it every day. I have seen it play out in the lives of others, including you, and I just try to tap that as much as I can, to be present with people and not try to talk them out of what they're feeling. You can't talk a thirteen year old out of how they're feeling. I don't know if you've tried. It is not a worthwhile endeavor. And so I just say, hey, I understand. I felt that way at times too, But I'm here with you and I'll stay with you, and we're on the same team, and I feel that way about humanity for the most part, and we will keep taking steps together and we don't know where it's going to go, but I do believe that we'll keep moving forward.

He went further left of me, and he gets so, you know, in that way that you do when you're young. It feels like how this is all terrible? Like how is any of this gonna get better? We were just having this conversation about climate change, and I said, hey, we just passed once in a generation climate change legislation that matters, and I know we don't feel it instantaneously, and that this work is long, but I you know, I believe in the beloved community. I believe that I drink from a well that I did not dig, and that people on the other end in front of me will hopefully benefit from things that I'm doing that I don't get to experience, and that connect. That's It's back to what we were talking about from the beginning. That connection. I believe in that. I feel it every day. I have seen it play out in the lives of others, including you, and I just try to tap that as much as I can, to be present with people and not try to talk them out of what they're feeling. You can't talk a thirteen year old out of how they're feeling. I don't know if you've tried. It is not a worthwhile endeavor. And so I just say, hey, I understand. I felt that way at times too, But I'm here with you and I'll stay with you, and we're on the same team, and I feel that way about humanity for the most part, and we will keep taking steps together and we don't know where it's going to go, but I do believe that we'll keep moving forward.

Well.

Well.

Amen, Amen, you and I are on the same page about that, and I am thrilled to have this chance to talk with you.

Amen, Amen, you and I are on the same page about that, and I am thrilled to have this chance to talk with you.

And you are welcome on Pantsu Politics anytime.

And you are welcome on Pantsu Politics anytime.

You know what, let's add that to the list. I'd love to.

You know what, let's add that to the list. I'd love to.

I love it.

I love it.

Listen to the Pantsuit Politics podcast wherever you get your podcasts. If you think talking to your uncle or your next door neighbor is challenging, wait until you hear from my next guest, Ambassador Linda Thomas Greenfield has represented the interests of the United States in some pretty difficult places, from Liberia to Afghanistan, and as we'll hear about now in her seat on the Security Council of the United Nations as our Ambassador to the UN. Over the course of her thirty five year career with the Foreign Service, Linda has served as Ambassador to Liberia, Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs, Director General of the Foreign Service, and Director of Human Resources, and held posts abroad in Pakistan, Kenya, Nigeria, and Switzerland, to name a few. I know how difficult diplomatic work is, the delicate balancing of knowing when to listen and learn and when to push back. And I've seen Linda in action, and she does it masterfully. She has great stories to share from her experience on the high wire of international diplomacy, but she also offers us all an example for how to handle difficult interactions in our own daily lives. I'm so delighted she could join us on the podcast.

Listen to the Pantsuit Politics podcast wherever you get your podcasts. If you think talking to your uncle or your next door neighbor is challenging, wait until you hear from my next guest, Ambassador Linda Thomas Greenfield has represented the interests of the United States in some pretty difficult places, from Liberia to Afghanistan, and as we'll hear about now in her seat on the Security Council of the United Nations as our Ambassador to the UN. Over the course of her thirty five year career with the Foreign Service, Linda has served as Ambassador to Liberia, Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs, Director General of the Foreign Service, and Director of Human Resources, and held posts abroad in Pakistan, Kenya, Nigeria, and Switzerland, to name a few. I know how difficult diplomatic work is, the delicate balancing of knowing when to listen and learn and when to push back. And I've seen Linda in action, and she does it masterfully. She has great stories to share from her experience on the high wire of international diplomacy, but she also offers us all an example for how to handle difficult interactions in our own daily lives. I'm so delighted she could join us on the podcast.

Welcome Linda, Thank you very much.

Welcome Linda, Thank you very much.

I'm delighted to be here with you.

I'm delighted to be here with you.

Well I've been looking forward to this, and I want to start by talking about your work at the United Nations, because I know that maybe some of our listeners don't know what does the US Ambassador to the United Nations do on a daily basis.

Well I've been looking forward to this, and I want to start by talking about your work at the United Nations, because I know that maybe some of our listeners don't know what does the US Ambassador to the United Nations do on a daily basis.

You know, first and foremost, I represent America to the world. At the United Nations. There are one hundred and ninety three country member states there, and I have to engage with all of those member states because when it comes to voting in the General Assembly, it's one country, one vote, and so I spend a lot of my days in aging with every single country. But also I attend meetings of the General Assembly and meetings of the Security Council, and then I do things like what I'm doing with you today.

You know, first and foremost, I represent America to the world. At the United Nations. There are one hundred and ninety three country member states there, and I have to engage with all of those member states because when it comes to voting in the General Assembly, it's one country, one vote, and so I spend a lot of my days in aging with every single country. But also I attend meetings of the General Assembly and meetings of the Security Council, and then I do things like what I'm doing with you today.

Well, I know how important it is to have that one on one personal contact, building those relationships between you representing the United States and the representatives of other countries, because, as you say, oftentimes.

Well, I know how important it is to have that one on one personal contact, building those relationships between you representing the United States and the representatives of other countries, because, as you say, oftentimes.

We need votes.

We need votes.

We need votes to do things that we believe are in our interests and furtherance of our values and obviously protecting our security.

We need votes to do things that we believe are in our interests and furtherance of our values and obviously protecting our security.

So let's take a step back.

So let's take a step back.

You were born and raised in Baker, Louisiana, north of Baton Rouge.

You were born and raised in Baker, Louisiana, north of Baton Rouge.

How did you end up.

How did you end up.

In the foreign service as a diplomat representing our country? Was there somebody who inspired you or something you learned that made you interested in international relations?

In the foreign service as a diplomat representing our country? Was there somebody who inspired you or something you learned that made you interested in international relations?

You know, every time I'm asked that question, I recall something different and new that I didn't recall before. And most recently, I've talked about the fact that when I was in eighth grade, Peace Corps came to my community. There was an old HBCU Leland College and it closed down and Peace Corps came there in the mid sixties to train volunteers who were going to Somalia and Swaziland, and that was my first engagement with the world outside of Baker, Louisiana. They reached out to the community, it's a poor rural community and invited young kids from the community to come over and learn the languages that they were learning, and I started to learn Suswati wow when I was in eighth grade. I can't repeat a word of it now, but it was interesting to me. And then fast forward, I ended up going to the university was Constant Graduate School, and one of my graduate classmates was the Siswati teacher Glory Mamba, and so I kind of rekindled that interest. I'd gone to Madison to get a master's degree in public administration. I didn't have any interest in international relations, but that moment rekindled that interest in learning more about the world, and I ended up in the PhD program studying African politics and got the amazing opportunity to go to Liberia, where I met people who worked at the embassy. One of them happens to be my husband, and that's all she wrote. I took the Foreign Service exam, and here I am. Forty years later.

You know, every time I'm asked that question, I recall something different and new that I didn't recall before. And most recently, I've talked about the fact that when I was in eighth grade, Peace Corps came to my community. There was an old HBCU Leland College and it closed down and Peace Corps came there in the mid sixties to train volunteers who were going to Somalia and Swaziland, and that was my first engagement with the world outside of Baker, Louisiana. They reached out to the community, it's a poor rural community and invited young kids from the community to come over and learn the languages that they were learning, and I started to learn Suswati wow when I was in eighth grade. I can't repeat a word of it now, but it was interesting to me. And then fast forward, I ended up going to the university was Constant Graduate School, and one of my graduate classmates was the Siswati teacher Glory Mamba, and so I kind of rekindled that interest. I'd gone to Madison to get a master's degree in public administration. I didn't have any interest in international relations, but that moment rekindled that interest in learning more about the world, and I ended up in the PhD program studying African politics and got the amazing opportunity to go to Liberia, where I met people who worked at the embassy. One of them happens to be my husband, and that's all she wrote. I took the Foreign Service exam, and here I am. Forty years later.

You joined in nineteen eighty two. You started representing the United States, and you've had one of the most interesting, impactful careers that I personally know of. But when I was Secretary of State, you served as Director General of the Foreign Service, which is a very prestigious post within the State Department, and you also served as the director of Human Resources, so you had a lot to do in stewarding the global workforce of seventy thousand personnel. In your view, what makes a good diplomat.

You joined in nineteen eighty two. You started representing the United States, and you've had one of the most interesting, impactful careers that I personally know of. But when I was Secretary of State, you served as Director General of the Foreign Service, which is a very prestigious post within the State Department, and you also served as the director of Human Resources, so you had a lot to do in stewarding the global workforce of seventy thousand personnel. In your view, what makes a good diplomat.

You know, first and foremost, you have to love what you're doing, and the most important skill is the ability to listen to people. It's communication skills. So we teach people they have to write well, and that's important. We teach people to develop contacts. But in developing those contacts, they have to develop relationships. And if you develop those relationships, you can be a good diplomat no matter where you are assigned, because you develop the relationships that help you to understand where other people are coming from, even those people you might not agree with.

You know, first and foremost, you have to love what you're doing, and the most important skill is the ability to listen to people. It's communication skills. So we teach people they have to write well, and that's important. We teach people to develop contacts. But in developing those contacts, they have to develop relationships. And if you develop those relationships, you can be a good diplomat no matter where you are assigned, because you develop the relationships that help you to understand where other people are coming from, even those people you might not agree with.

I was wondering if there's also either teaching or role modeling about what to do when you're asked to execute a policy you don't agree with personally, because you know you serve different presidents. Obviously, you know there's different policies depending upon who's sitting in the oval office. How does a diplomat come to be professionally able to say, Okay, I disagree with this, but I serve the president and the country.

I was wondering if there's also either teaching or role modeling about what to do when you're asked to execute a policy you don't agree with personally, because you know you serve different presidents. Obviously, you know there's different policies depending upon who's sitting in the oval office. How does a diplomat come to be professionally able to say, Okay, I disagree with this, but I serve the president and the country.

You know. It takes experience and it also takes a commitment to the profession. I had an experience early in my career when I questioned whether I wanted to be in the Foreign Service and whether I could continue to serve give a particular policy, and it related to Liberia. I was in Liberia in the late seventies. I left Liberian seventy nine after some very violent Rice riots, and in nineteen eighty there was a bloody coup and the person who carried out that who committed atrocities beyond our imaginations at that time. And I joined the Foreign Service in eighty two, and one of the first meetings, I think maybe in eighty three that I was aware of the White House having was a meeting between President Reagan and Liberian President Doe, who'd carried out this horrific and very bloody coup. And I thought it was wrong for the President to meet with this guy, and I voiced it to a more senior officer, and he said, Linda, if you quit today, nobody will pay attention. If you want to make a difference, you have to be in a position where your voice is heard, and right now your voice will not be heard. And I will tell you later in my career I was in a position where my voice made a difference in our policies and I was able to affect change. And I very much appreciate the advice that I was given at an early age that just quitting will make me feel good, but it will do nothing for our government. So that's advice that I give to young people today.

You know. It takes experience and it also takes a commitment to the profession. I had an experience early in my career when I questioned whether I wanted to be in the Foreign Service and whether I could continue to serve give a particular policy, and it related to Liberia. I was in Liberia in the late seventies. I left Liberian seventy nine after some very violent Rice riots, and in nineteen eighty there was a bloody coup and the person who carried out that who committed atrocities beyond our imaginations at that time. And I joined the Foreign Service in eighty two, and one of the first meetings, I think maybe in eighty three that I was aware of the White House having was a meeting between President Reagan and Liberian President Doe, who'd carried out this horrific and very bloody coup. And I thought it was wrong for the President to meet with this guy, and I voiced it to a more senior officer, and he said, Linda, if you quit today, nobody will pay attention. If you want to make a difference, you have to be in a position where your voice is heard, and right now your voice will not be heard. And I will tell you later in my career I was in a position where my voice made a difference in our policies and I was able to affect change. And I very much appreciate the advice that I was given at an early age that just quitting will make me feel good, but it will do nothing for our government. So that's advice that I give to young people today.

I think that's such important insight and advice because you know, our conversation today is really focusing on how do you talk to people you disagree with? And I think it's fair to say you and I have a lot of you know, a lot of time shocked up to trying to do that. But if you don't listen to people with whom you disagree, there is absolutely no chance of finding any sliver of common ground. You still may not find it, but you've got to start from some point of understanding what does this person, what does this government want? And is there any way to reach some kind of better outcome.

I think that's such important insight and advice because you know, our conversation today is really focusing on how do you talk to people you disagree with? And I think it's fair to say you and I have a lot of you know, a lot of time shocked up to trying to do that. But if you don't listen to people with whom you disagree, there is absolutely no chance of finding any sliver of common ground. You still may not find it, but you've got to start from some point of understanding what does this person, what does this government want? And is there any way to reach some kind of better outcome.

We'll be right back.

We'll be right back.

I want to talk to you about two areas that you really have fascinating experience in one in Liberia.

I want to talk to you about two areas that you really have fascinating experience in one in Liberia.

Tell the listeners a little.

Tell the listeners a little.

Bit more about when you went back and it was still a very violent, conflict ridden country.

Bit more about when you went back and it was still a very violent, conflict ridden country.

You know, I went full circle. I started in Liberia in seventy eight, seventy nine, and then went back to Liberia in two thousand and eight as the ambassador, and Liberia had just come out of a horrific era of civil war. In two thousand and six it had elected the first woman president and it was extraordinarily challenging for her and for the entire country. And I remember going in the Secretary of State at that time was Kandie Rice, And as you know, you give us a secretary's letter of instruction to go into a country, and my letter of instruction to Liberia, it's said a lot of things, but one thing stood out. Your job is to help this country to succeed. And so that was the approach that I took. When I arrived at my embassy, I shared the letter of instructions with the entire embassy and said, this is what we're here to do. We're here to help this country. Then, through decades of civil war and conflict, people are traumatized. We have a president who started out with a budget of sixty million dollars to run a country. It's pocket change for most countries. How do we help her to succeed? And my approach to her, and I'm still friends with her, is mana president, I'm going to be the one person who will always tell you the truth. Yes, right, even when it's not something you want to hear. You can trust that I will always tell you the truth about the people around you, about you. But I also engage with everybody in the country, the good guys and the bad guys. I spoke to everyone. I went into communities, I spoke to market women, I spoke to unemployed teachers. I got to know the country from the grassroots so that I could be in a position to help the country succeed, inform our own policies about what we needed to do from the Washington side, but also advise the president and her government on what they needed to do. And I found it to be extraordinarily effective. One thing that happened the first year I was there, the local newspapers vote on the diplomat of the year, and I was voted the diplomat of the year, but called the people's ambassador. And that was extraordinarily important to me because people recognize that they would see me in the markets, they would see me in the coffee in tea shops talking to unemployed youth. They would see me in rural areas talking to local people, farmers and getting a sense of what the country needed to survive and help the country to succeed. And I think we did an extraordinarily good job. And two of my successes, Madame Secretary, was to get you to come to lib Aurea twice.

You know, I went full circle. I started in Liberia in seventy eight, seventy nine, and then went back to Liberia in two thousand and eight as the ambassador, and Liberia had just come out of a horrific era of civil war. In two thousand and six it had elected the first woman president and it was extraordinarily challenging for her and for the entire country. And I remember going in the Secretary of State at that time was Kandie Rice, And as you know, you give us a secretary's letter of instruction to go into a country, and my letter of instruction to Liberia, it's said a lot of things, but one thing stood out. Your job is to help this country to succeed. And so that was the approach that I took. When I arrived at my embassy, I shared the letter of instructions with the entire embassy and said, this is what we're here to do. We're here to help this country. Then, through decades of civil war and conflict, people are traumatized. We have a president who started out with a budget of sixty million dollars to run a country. It's pocket change for most countries. How do we help her to succeed? And my approach to her, and I'm still friends with her, is mana president, I'm going to be the one person who will always tell you the truth. Yes, right, even when it's not something you want to hear. You can trust that I will always tell you the truth about the people around you, about you. But I also engage with everybody in the country, the good guys and the bad guys. I spoke to everyone. I went into communities, I spoke to market women, I spoke to unemployed teachers. I got to know the country from the grassroots so that I could be in a position to help the country succeed, inform our own policies about what we needed to do from the Washington side, but also advise the president and her government on what they needed to do. And I found it to be extraordinarily effective. One thing that happened the first year I was there, the local newspapers vote on the diplomat of the year, and I was voted the diplomat of the year, but called the people's ambassador. And that was extraordinarily important to me because people recognize that they would see me in the markets, they would see me in the coffee in tea shops talking to unemployed youth. They would see me in rural areas talking to local people, farmers and getting a sense of what the country needed to survive and help the country to succeed. And I think we did an extraordinarily good job. And two of my successes, Madame Secretary, was to get you to come to lib Aurea twice.

I know.

I know.

And as I was listening to you, Linda, I thought about going to president to Ellen Johnson, Sirleive's second inaugural after or she'd gotten herself re elected, which was equally amazing. And she asked me to speak to the Parliament. Remember that, and she told me, she said, now I need you to go speak to the Parliament, but you're gonna be standing in front of an audience it includes war criminals, coupplotters, all kinds of you know, very uh dangerous and difficult people.

And as I was listening to you, Linda, I thought about going to president to Ellen Johnson, Sirleive's second inaugural after or she'd gotten herself re elected, which was equally amazing. And she asked me to speak to the Parliament. Remember that, and she told me, she said, now I need you to go speak to the Parliament, but you're gonna be standing in front of an audience it includes war criminals, coupplotters, all kinds of you know, very uh dangerous and difficult people.

And my job was to keep you from taking a picture with idioms.

And my job was to keep you from taking a picture with idioms.

Yeah, I know, I know it.

Yeah, I know, I know it.

But that's like a perfect story, Like, Okay, you had been spending your time day in and day out talking to everybody, including you know, people that maybe we would not choose to, but that was part of the mission. And then I was speaking to a full audience that included some of those same people. But it just goes to remind us that you don't make peace or progress just with your friends. I mean, you've got to have a big enough tent that you bring all kinds of people of influence in a society together. And one of the most fascinating parts of your career, Linda, is you were among the very first Americans ever to meet with and negotiate with the Taliban. And that happened, you know, not in the last couple of years, but back in the nineties. Could you just describe the circumstances you were in Pakistan, what happened that made you cross the border to meet with the Taliban.

But that's like a perfect story, Like, Okay, you had been spending your time day in and day out talking to everybody, including you know, people that maybe we would not choose to, but that was part of the mission. And then I was speaking to a full audience that included some of those same people. But it just goes to remind us that you don't make peace or progress just with your friends. I mean, you've got to have a big enough tent that you bring all kinds of people of influence in a society together. And one of the most fascinating parts of your career, Linda, is you were among the very first Americans ever to meet with and negotiate with the Taliban. And that happened, you know, not in the last couple of years, but back in the nineties. Could you just describe the circumstances you were in Pakistan, what happened that made you cross the border to meet with the Taliban.

So I was the refugee coordinator in Pakistan, and the refugees in Pakistan all came from Afghanistan. And when I was sent out there, I was sent to basically close the refugee camps and start supporting people returning home. I got there in August of nineteen ninety six and the Taliban came in in November, and that changed my job description. So I was engaging with the Taliban on the issues of women's education, on issues of human rights, on issues of the poppy and drug trade. It was not my intention. I literally was going in to assess the work of the NGOs and the UN the work that they were doing in Afghanistan because we were the largest funder. So my initial goal was to work with those organizations, but those organizations were having difficulty working with the Taliban, and I recalled in one meeting with the Taliban minister of health who'd made a decision that women could not work in hospitals, they could not provide medical care and lock any access of women to medical assistance. And I went in to meet with this guy. I had a very lightly covered veil on and as I started to talk to him, he said, you are trying to impose your culture on me on us, and I said, this is not my.

So I was the refugee coordinator in Pakistan, and the refugees in Pakistan all came from Afghanistan. And when I was sent out there, I was sent to basically close the refugee camps and start supporting people returning home. I got there in August of nineteen ninety six and the Taliban came in in November, and that changed my job description. So I was engaging with the Taliban on the issues of women's education, on issues of human rights, on issues of the poppy and drug trade. It was not my intention. I literally was going in to assess the work of the NGOs and the UN the work that they were doing in Afghanistan because we were the largest funder. So my initial goal was to work with those organizations, but those organizations were having difficulty working with the Taliban, and I recalled in one meeting with the Taliban minister of health who'd made a decision that women could not work in hospitals, they could not provide medical care and lock any access of women to medical assistance. And I went in to meet with this guy. I had a very lightly covered veil on and as I started to talk to him, he said, you are trying to impose your culture on me on us, and I said, this is not my.

Culture, pointing to your head with her into.

Culture, pointing to your head with her into.

My head with the veil, and I removed the veil. I said, I wore it out of respect for you, but this is not my culture. And all the angos were like up in arms because I'd remove my scarf, but I said, I need to understand your culture. So if I understand correctly, when women get sick, the only outcome is that they die. So if your mother, your sister, your wife, your daughter all gets sick, they have no access to a doctor because they can't see a male doctor, and you're blocking them from seeing a female doctor. And he sat there, he didn't say anything and Finally the meeting ended. Everybody was upset with me because they thought I'd been a little pushy, a little over aggressive. And I discovered that his mother was seriously ill and he'd been pushing for one of the NGOs to fly his mother to Pakistan for medical treatment.

My head with the veil, and I removed the veil. I said, I wore it out of respect for you, but this is not my culture. And all the angos were like up in arms because I'd remove my scarf, but I said, I need to understand your culture. So if I understand correctly, when women get sick, the only outcome is that they die. So if your mother, your sister, your wife, your daughter all gets sick, they have no access to a doctor because they can't see a male doctor, and you're blocking them from seeing a female doctor. And he sat there, he didn't say anything and Finally the meeting ended. Everybody was upset with me because they thought I'd been a little pushy, a little over aggressive. And I discovered that his mother was seriously ill and he'd been pushing for one of the NGOs to fly his mother to Pakistan for medical treatment.

And he thought that I knew that.

And he thought that I knew that.

And the next day he made the decision to allow women to go back to work. It was not I mean, we rejoiced at the decision, but they also had to have a male relative accompany them, and the male relative could be their two year old son, right, but women were allowed to go back into the hospital to work. And I thought, you know, I engaged him. I didn't think I was being aggressive. I was like, I need to understand your culture. Good for you, Linda, and I engaged regularly with Afghan women. And one of the things that women told me which really impacted me, is you're pushing for our girls' education, and we want our girls to be educated, but you have to educate our boys too, because if you don't educate our boys, they're going to be forced to marry ignorant men. And it changed my approach as well, because I began to understand yes, we have to demand that girls be educated, but we cannot ignore the education of boys, because otherwise these boys will be become taliban who don't understand how to support the rights of women.

And the next day he made the decision to allow women to go back to work. It was not I mean, we rejoiced at the decision, but they also had to have a male relative accompany them, and the male relative could be their two year old son, right, but women were allowed to go back into the hospital to work. And I thought, you know, I engaged him. I didn't think I was being aggressive. I was like, I need to understand your culture. Good for you, Linda, and I engaged regularly with Afghan women. And one of the things that women told me which really impacted me, is you're pushing for our girls' education, and we want our girls to be educated, but you have to educate our boys too, because if you don't educate our boys, they're going to be forced to marry ignorant men. And it changed my approach as well, because I began to understand yes, we have to demand that girls be educated, but we cannot ignore the education of boys, because otherwise these boys will be become taliban who don't understand how to support the rights of women.

I think that's such an important story because so many people in our country today don't want to talk to anybody they disagree with, whether it's the right, the left, red, blue, Democrat, Republican, whatever it might be. Yeah, I mean that is diplomacy kind of in a nutshell, and yet it often seems to move so slowly. It takes a lot of patience. How do you keep the resilience? You know, I have a little bit of experience of getting knocked down, having things not work out, and you do have to call on something deep inside. And I know that in your career you've had to do that time and time again because you've been in some very challenging positions. So talk a little bit about what it takes to keep talking and working under difficult circumstances as you have.

I think that's such an important story because so many people in our country today don't want to talk to anybody they disagree with, whether it's the right, the left, red, blue, Democrat, Republican, whatever it might be. Yeah, I mean that is diplomacy kind of in a nutshell, and yet it often seems to move so slowly. It takes a lot of patience. How do you keep the resilience? You know, I have a little bit of experience of getting knocked down, having things not work out, and you do have to call on something deep inside. And I know that in your career you've had to do that time and time again because you've been in some very challenging positions. So talk a little bit about what it takes to keep talking and working under difficult circumstances as you have.

You know, you always have to approach any of these discussions with an unrealistic.

You know, you always have to approach any of these discussions with an unrealistic.

Degree of hope interesting.

Degree of hope interesting.

That you are making a difference, and that even when you fail, you achieve something and so I approach situations that are clearly very challenging, very difficult, that I probably know in my hard hearts that I'm not going to win on. But something is going to come out that will make a difference, will make a difference in the lives of people who who are engaged, or people who just need to see the US there. They want to see us at the table, and when they see us at the table, it gives them strength. So it's also about giving others the strength to engage on these issues. And I just know every single day, and this is that unrealistic part of me. Every single day I know that something I'm doing, although it may look like failure to everybody else, is making a difference to someone somewhere.

That you are making a difference, and that even when you fail, you achieve something and so I approach situations that are clearly very challenging, very difficult, that I probably know in my hard hearts that I'm not going to win on. But something is going to come out that will make a difference, will make a difference in the lives of people who who are engaged, or people who just need to see the US there. They want to see us at the table, and when they see us at the table, it gives them strength. So it's also about giving others the strength to engage on these issues. And I just know every single day, and this is that unrealistic part of me. Every single day I know that something I'm doing, although it may look like failure to everybody else, is making a difference to someone somewhere.

I like that because I think that is a way that people like you and I do keep going. Is that somehow this ripple effect is going to mean something. Yes, And before we close, do you have any reflections about how some of what you've learned through your forty years of diplomacy could be applied in our own country, which seems so divided, so at odds with each other, where people are more interested in scoring points than solving problems. Do you have any advice you want to give our listeners and others who are trying to figure out how do we get back together, how do we have hope that we're going to work our way through all of these controversies and problems.

I like that because I think that is a way that people like you and I do keep going. Is that somehow this ripple effect is going to mean something. Yes, And before we close, do you have any reflections about how some of what you've learned through your forty years of diplomacy could be applied in our own country, which seems so divided, so at odds with each other, where people are more interested in scoring points than solving problems. Do you have any advice you want to give our listeners and others who are trying to figure out how do we get back together, how do we have hope that we're going to work our way through all of these controversies and problems.

You know, what I see and what has worked for me and what I see not working now is people have lost their sense of compassion. They've lost their sense of kindness, they have lost their sense of respect for other people's differences. So I can sit with someone that I have differences with and listen to them long enough to find a common thread. And sometimes it takes a lot of patience to do that. It's sitting and listening to somebody spout off something for two hours that you totally disagree with. But suddenly a light goes off and there's this thread and you find a connection with that person. And so we've lost our sense to patients, yes as well. So my advice is listen, respect, show kindness, and look for the commonalities that are there that if you didn't have the patience to wait, you wouldn't find those commonalities. It may be that you have grandchildren who are the same ages, and you spend fifteen minutes, a very valuable time talking about your two grandkids. And then I can use that bring it back around to say, if you want a future for your grandchild, then you need to rethink what you're doing here. And so it does take patients because you go into these meetings. You got thirty minutes. Lucky if you got sixty minutes and you got three pages of talking points and everybody waiting for you to go through each point because ten different entities within the government want.

You know, what I see and what has worked for me and what I see not working now is people have lost their sense of compassion. They've lost their sense of kindness, they have lost their sense of respect for other people's differences. So I can sit with someone that I have differences with and listen to them long enough to find a common thread. And sometimes it takes a lot of patience to do that. It's sitting and listening to somebody spout off something for two hours that you totally disagree with. But suddenly a light goes off and there's this thread and you find a connection with that person. And so we've lost our sense to patients, yes as well. So my advice is listen, respect, show kindness, and look for the commonalities that are there that if you didn't have the patience to wait, you wouldn't find those commonalities. It may be that you have grandchildren who are the same ages, and you spend fifteen minutes, a very valuable time talking about your two grandkids. And then I can use that bring it back around to say, if you want a future for your grandchild, then you need to rethink what you're doing here. And so it does take patients because you go into these meetings. You got thirty minutes. Lucky if you got sixty minutes and you got three pages of talking points and everybody waiting for you to go through each point because ten different entities within the government want.

You to make their point.

You to make their point.

Yes, right, and so you have to go through the talking points, but you also have to listen, and you have to connect with the person. So I always start my meetings connecting and so then you've established that relationship that allows you to reach back to that person again and again and again. And that's when you know you've succeeded as a diplomat when you have those relationships that work even when you disagree with each other.

Yes, right, and so you have to go through the talking points, but you also have to listen, and you have to connect with the person. So I always start my meetings connecting and so then you've established that relationship that allows you to reach back to that person again and again and again. And that's when you know you've succeeded as a diplomat when you have those relationships that work even when you disagree with each other.

Boy, amen to that, Linda, Well, you could give a masterclass on diplomacy. And you have given us a lot to think about in this conversation. And I'm just so appreciative of your taking your time, but more than that of your steadfast, stellar devotion to the work you've done on behalf of the United States, and I just hope your words resonate with our lis and beyond so that people will talk about that.

Boy, amen to that, Linda, Well, you could give a masterclass on diplomacy. And you have given us a lot to think about in this conversation. And I'm just so appreciative of your taking your time, but more than that of your steadfast, stellar devotion to the work you've done on behalf of the United States, and I just hope your words resonate with our lis and beyond so that people will talk about that.

Well, I'm not going to let you in with that because you have been such a role model for all of us, and during your term as Secretary of State, you really gave us the guidance and the support that we needed that allowed us to do our jobs, and you gave us the example that we needed. So I'm going to thank you for what you have done as well.

Well, I'm not going to let you in with that because you have been such a role model for all of us, and during your term as Secretary of State, you really gave us the guidance and the support that we needed that allowed us to do our jobs, and you gave us the example that we needed. So I'm going to thank you for what you have done as well.

Well.

Well.

Thank you so much for everything. It means the world to me.

Thank you so much for everything. It means the world to me.

Thank you.

Thank you.

You and Me Both is brought to you by iHeart Podcasts. We're produced by Julie Subren, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, with help from Khuma Abadeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsey Hoffman, Sarah Horowitz, Laura Olin, Lona Vlmro and Lily Weber. Our engineer is Zach McNeice and the original music is by Forest Gray. If you like You and Me Both, tell someone else about it. And if you're not already a subscriber, what are you waiting for? You can subscribe to You and Me Both on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you next week.

You and Me Both is brought to you by iHeart Podcasts. We're produced by Julie Subren, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, with help from Khuma Abadeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsey Hoffman, Sarah Horowitz, Laura Olin, Lona Vlmro and Lily Weber. Our engineer is Zach McNeice and the original music is by Forest Gray. If you like You and Me Both, tell someone else about it. And if you're not already a subscriber, what are you waiting for? You can subscribe to You and Me Both on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you next week.