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#133 Jason Flom and Kim Kardashian on Julius Jones

Published May 20, 2020, 4:12 AM

In the fall of 1998, Julius Jones had the whole world ahead of him. He was a freshman who planned to study engineering and was attending the University of Oklahoma on an academic scholarship. The following summer, just three days after his 19th birthday, Julius was awakened and dragged out of bed, barefoot and shirtless, and taken into police custody as a murder suspect. In 2002, he was convicted of killing a prominent local businessman – this after eyewitness testimony that should have excluded the young man as a suspect, as well as overt racial bias both in the news media and in the jury box.

Julius Jones is facing execution as early as the fall of 2020.

Special guests Kim Kardashian West along with Julius’ current attorney, Dale Baich and his mother and sister, Madeline and Antoinette Jones, join Jason Flom to discuss Julius’ case and the race for the State of Oklahoma to grant him clemency before it’s too late.

Learn more and get involved at: https://www.justiceforjuliusjones.com/

https://www.change.org/p/julius-jones-is-innocent-don-t-let-him-be-executed-by-the-state-of-oklahoma

https://www.wrongfulconvictionpodcast.com/with-jason-flom

Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good™ Podcasts in association with Signal Co. No1.

On July and Edmund, Oklahoma, business owner Paul Howell was returning to his parents home with his sister and two daughters after shopping for school supplies. Upon exiting the vehicle, he was shot twice and killed for his GMC suburban. Paul's sister would describe the shooter as an African American male wearing a red band down across his face and a stocking cap with up to an inch of hair sticking out from the bottom. Investigators would tap confidential informants in the stolen car trade that would deflect from themselves and point police in the direction of Chris Jordan and Julius Jones. Chris Jordan's would go on to give a confession that was riddled with inconsistencies, blaming Julius Jones for the murder, but on the night of July, Julius was at home with his family. The following night, July twenty nine, Chris Jordan slept at the Jones home, and that's when he planted the murder weapon in a second story crawl space, something he admitted both to the police and to two jailhouse informants. On July. Police would find the gun exactly where Chris Jordan had told him to look and emerge with it wrapped in a red Bandanna. Julius's defense at trial failed to present any evidence, including a photo taken by police after a traffic stop just ten days earlier, that would have ruled him out as a potential match to the only eyewitnesses description. Chris Jordan, on the other hand, received leniency for testifying against Julius, and he's been out of prison since two thousand fourteen. Julius, meanwhile, remains on death row for a crime for which Chris Jordan's has bragged about framing him. On this episode, we team up with one of Julius's fiercest advocates, Kim Kardashian West, as we speak with his attorney Dale Bache, and his mother and sister, Madeline and Antoinette Jones. This Its Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flow. Today, we're here to talk about Julius Jones, who has been on death row in Oklahoma for over twenty years for a crime he didn't commit. And I'd like to welcome a very special guest. You'll recognize her name, and you'll recognize her from having been on this podcast before. Kim Kardashian West. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason flam Hi. Thank you for having me again. I can't overstate the importance of you being here today with us, Kim, because if we don't take every possible action that we can, and I mean the audience too, Julius will be executed in Oklahoma as early as this fall for a crime we know he didn't commit. Kim, can you tell us when you first heard about this case? Yeah, I first started to receive letters. They were from a woman named Terry McCarthy, probably thirty letters from her, and she was kind of reiterating the same information about Julius and mentioned the documentary with Viola Davis. So I thought, I have to look into this. And I say this all the time because we have such an amazing group of people between you and Scott bud Nick, my attorneys and everyone. When all of the big players really feel the same way about a case, I know that we have to be loud. And I feel in my soul that we are early enough because an execution date for Julius hasn't been set yet that I just I feel like now is the time where we all just have to come together and really make a difference in his life. What about this particular case, about his case makes you so passionate And what sticks out to you the most about Julius' case? There's a few things. Being a young, honorable student athlete, you have your whole life ahead of you. Everyone around always says what an amazing person he is, that grew up with him, his coaches, and then to see getting caught up with the wrong group of people and getting set up the way he was just really rubbed me the wrong way. That someone's life, a young kid's life was just taken away. It always goes back to me thinking about what if that was my son? What would I do if my son got set up like this? So we gotta fight for this guy. We got to help him get his life back. The next voice you here is going to be the voice of Dale Bache, an assistant federal public defender who is definitely doing his part to help to unravel this nightmare. When did you get involved with it? In two thousand and sixteen, our office was appointed to represent Julius in clemency proceedings. Now, can you walk us through the case? Sure? On July, according to Chris Jordan's, who is the co defendant in this case. He and Julius were driving around looking for a suburban to jack. They spotted a car, followed it into a neighborhood, and according to Chris Jordan's, Julius jumped out of the car when the car pulled into the driveway and shot Paul Howell. When Chris Jordan was taken into custody, that's what he told the police, and they immediately focused on Julius tunnel vision set in. But what we now know is Chris made seven different statements to the police, and those statements were inconsistent, and at one point the police say, what you're telling us, it's not adding up. We don't have this backwards, do we. So the police knew that there were problems with what Chris was telling them, but the police continue to focus on Julius. Something really struck me as I was reading about this case, which was that when the gun was hidden in julius house, obviously very damning for anyone to have the murder weapon found in their home. Well, we know that when Chris was interviewed by the police, he was asked, so you hid the murder weapon and he responded, yeah. Chris also told one of the men that he spoke to while in custody in the county jail that he wrapped the gun used to commit the murder and hid it in Julius's parents house. We understand that Chris was sitting in a police car outside of Julius's house after the police stormed the home and then went looking for the gun and immediately went to where we think Chris told them the gun would be located. We also know that there were other people involved, namely Kermit Lotty and Ladell King, that had a lot to gain by pointing in julius direction and away from themselves. Can you tell us about Kermit and Lidell. Kermit Lotti was a man who ran a chop shop on the south side of Oklahoma City, and it was a well known establishment in the trade of stealing cars. Liddel King was a close confidante of Kermits and was known for his involvement in that trade. Adel King was also a confidential informant, and in exchange for providing information to the police, he would be allowed to carry on with some of his illegal activities. At the time of Julius's trial. Liddell King was facing bogus check charges and as an habitual offender, he was looking to twenty years, and in exchange for his testimony, he got ten years probation. Liddell was one of the guys that pointed the finger at Julius. So this paints a pretty strong picture of a sort of a unit. Right. You had Chris Jordan's who was a troubled kid. You had these two other known criminals, particularly ensconced in the stolen car business, and then you have a car that gets stolen in a violent brobbery tragic death. But we know a number of things that would make anyone go wait. I mean, for instance, we know that number of shell casing stounded at the scene was something that was known and volunteered by Chris and his interrogation before the police even asked or suggested it. We know that the witnesses were incentivized. We know that the description matches someone very much like Chris Jordan's who doesn't look like Julius. Megan Toby, Mr. Howell's sister was in the car with him when he pulled into the driveway, and she testified that she saw the person who shot her brother, and she described him as African American, wearing a red bandana across his face, wearing a black stocking cap, and half an inch of hair hanging out from under the cap. What's critical about that is Julius wore his hair close crop, very short. Chris Jordan's, on the other hand, wore his hair in braids. And how do we know that Julius's hair was was short. Ten days prior to Mr Howell's murder, Julius got picked up on a traffic stop and had a mug shot taken, So there's an official government photo of Julius with short hair, and that photograph was never shown to the jury at trial. We also know that Julius was at home with his family at the time Mr Howell was shot and killed, and later that evening, Chris and Julius were supposed to drive down to Norman, Oklahoma, which is about twenty minutes south of Oklahoma City. Julius was at home getting a little agitated because Chris said he would be there early in the evening and Kristen did show up until close to midnight. We also have with us julius sister Antoinette, and his mother Madeleine now here. You have a son who is excelling in so many ways, co captain of three different sports, tames in high school, academic scholarship at Oklahoma University, great looking young man with his whole life laid out in front of him, and then everything it takes a terrible, terrible turn. Well, first of all, it's been a twenty plus year shock, and uh, I really can't often find the words to explain what it's been like. We just got blindsided. It sure seems like you went from the American dream to the American nightmare. And let's go to that faithful night July. Can you tell us what was happening that night and why and how you know that Julius could not possibly have been there. That was a kind of a busy day for us, and I was trying to do Antoinette's hair. I was fixing uh spaghetti, But Julius was there all day long. They played monopoly. There were a few of us play monopoly. Julius was there for a monopoly and from my oldest brother Antonio and another young man that was over there, they got mad at me because I gave Jesus all my money and property I had to do that because I had to get my hair done. So it's specific things like that, Like I know that it was around Jesus birthday. Jesus friend had a big chocolate chill cookie that she gave to him for his birthday. Tony kept going in and out of the refrigerator to take pieces of the cookie. And later on that day, my brother Antonio had to go to work. My mother went to go take him to work. Julius looks in refrigerator and he's like, oh my goodness. He was like, who ate my cooking? And I kid you not. He waited at the back door in the kitchen, pacing back and forth, waiting for mom to come home, so he could tell that somebody ate his cookie. So I kind of was like, well, you know, I was like, Tony, your cookie, and so I'll never forget that that. So it doesn't seem like someone who just murdered somebody would be particularly concerned over how much of a cookie was left in the refrigerator or not. Um. I mean, that's just one of many many things, you know. So July he's home with you. It sounds like sort of a typical family night. But then things changed dramatically in the next thirty six hours, right the twenty nine, Chris is at your home? Right, Um, I know that he spent the night that night, which is when we believe that he had the opportunity to plant the gun. Do you recall Chris being at your house that night? Thursday? It was trash day and uh, Jews usually take some trash outain sometimes we sit and talk on the walkway. But Chris was kind of like a shadow was there and when that were you there that night? Do you remember if Chris was at the house. I know Chris was there because I heard him come upstairs and going to the room that was Julius. The very next day, the police would surround the Jones house. Julia's family was purple walked out of their own home, and Chris Jordan would be in a police car out front to tell them exactly what the murder weapon was hidden. Julius was appointed a good attorney, Mr Barry Albert, who was known for his skill and unorthodox but effective courtroom style. But Mr Albert, I can't believe this would die. He died shortly before the trial, leaving his new public defenders woefully unprepared. So much so that they didn't put on any defense whatsoever. When it came time for Julius to present his case, the lawyers simply stood up and said the defense rests. The lawyers did not put on testimony from the family who would have presented an alibi. The lawyers did not investigate and present evidence from two people who were in jail who didn't know each other and independently came forward and said that Chris Jordan's told told them that he said Julius up. He told one of the men that he planted the weapon in Julius's house, and he told both of the men that he would be getting out of prison after serving a fifteen year sentence in exchange for his testimony against Julius. The inconsistent statements that Chris made to the police during his interrogation were never explored by the defense when they had an opportunity to cross examine Chris. It's an inexplicable lapse. In fact, it's totally understandable why the jury would have voted to convict. They didn't have any information to work with except what the state was saying. What was it like, uh, seeing your your baby going through this trial? Well, at the beginning, I was very confident because the attorney that we had, Mr. He was very thorough and he talked to us and he said, I just need to get Chris on the stand. Mr Abbot had a plan before he passed away. The opponent atonis they wanted more time, and then after he passed away, then they wanted to immediately started with trial and everything. And we were there every day. But one of the excuses after Mr Abbart had passed, they said the reason they didn't call us understanding after they had sentenced Julius because they didn't know we were there. It was just a mockery. I was devastated. I was devastated when I heard the word we rest. I think I was a little older than thirteen, and I didn't understand how you couldn't put people understand to help my brother's defense. There was no defense there. And that I mean that, just that that pisces me out. You know, Kim, I just try to picture you know you you really spoke clearly about this before. But putting someone we love or yourself, if you're in the audience, put yourself in the shoes of a guy who's at trial for his life literally and his lawyers are doing absolutely nothing to help him. How can that be? How could that stand? And by the way, is that why you're taking the bar. I'm taking it just because I want to know more. If I don't know a lot about the system and how the law actually works, then I feel like I can't help as many people. I know we can get a lot done, but I feel like I could on a different level. So that's why I am taking it. But it infuriates me to hear when cases when there's ineffective counsel. It just makes me so mad, especially if it's an appointed attorney, that you think that if you don't have the money to afford an attorney and so you're getting a point in one, that they're going to be ineffective and not help but actually hurt your case so much. I mean, I don't know how I can live with myself if I was an attorney like that. You know, for me, any injustice troubles me. But this one sticks in my mind because there he is on death row and basically the closest thing we have to hell on earth. And you know, I wanted to ask you about that. How do you feel about the death penalty in general. You know what, I'm just not for the death penalty no matter what. You know. Obviously there are people that have done really horrific things and definitely deserve to be behind bars. But I don't believe in taking a life. But I think, especially with Julius's case, he just didn't get a fair trial, bottom line. So I think that especially if there is even a chance that someone is innocent and their life would be taken, We've just seen it happen too many times for this to still be happening on the I can't support it. For people who are listening, now, what could you say to them when they end up serving on a jury which, you know, let's face it, all of us at some point get one of those jury duty notices and it's you look at it and you go and no, now, I gotta disrupt my life. It's literally my dream to do that. I hope that when I get like jury duty, that it's some case that I can make a difference in. No one wants to get the wrong person because it also prevents us from getting the right person. So and in this case, I mean, it's a tragedy. What happened to this family that they lost this guy who by all accounts was a good guy, and we want justice for him too. But there is no justice when you have the wrong person in prison. I think you have to be extremely sensitive with the families that are involved here. My compassion for helping someone and I'm not just speaking about Julius, it can be anyone never takes away my empathy for the family of the victim, and ultimately we all have the same goal. Is like what you just said is making sure that the right person is put behind bars and that the innocent person is able to be freed from this nightmare that they're in. I mean, as we've heard at Julius's trial, the defense didn't even give the jury much information to work with. But believe it or not, it gets even worse. During the trial in the jury room, one of the jurors said out loud, why are we wasting our time here? We ought to just take that end out back and bury um outside the jail, and one of the jurors approached a bailiff and told him what she heard and asked to talk to the judge on the record. The judge sort of dismissed it as well, he could have been talking about osam bin Laden. We don't know who the juror was talking about. Take the N word out of the equation. You still have a juror who made up his mind and was going to convict Julius and sentence him to death. Throw the N word in there, and the racism is just oozing from this case. We also know that between and two thousand and twelve, there was a study conducted in Oklahoma on race and the death penalty. The authors concluded that an African American male who is convicted of killing a white male is three times more likely to get the death penalty in Oklahoma. So at trial, yet racism incentivized lying witnesses and no defense whatsoever. So Dale, what you took on this case, You guys had your work cut out for you, to say the least. But there was a new law in place in Oklahoma that allowed you to do DNA testing and post conviction. So he tested the red bandanna right it was sitting in in evidence for almost twenty years. Dr Shapiro, he used to be with the Department of Forensic Biology at the Medical Examiner's Office in New York City, reviewed the DNA report that was produced by Bodhi Sellmark and came to some conclusions. So one of the things that Megan Toby, the victim's sister, testified to was that the shooter yelled something at her is she was running away, And we identified a stain on the bandanna, and we wanted to check if that stain was saliva, and it came back negative is to saliva. So we don't even know if that bandanna that was found in Julius's attic was the same bandanna that the assailant war because there's not the saliva staying on it that should be there, because the assailant yelled, don't forget this was July and Oklahoma, right, So you do have to suspend a lot of this belief to come up with the conclusion that someone Julius or anyone is going to be in an extremely high pressure situation on a very hot day and not sweat or breathe into the bandanna that they're supposedly wearing on their face. We don't know. We'll never know whether the gun was wrapped in the bandanna or whether the gun was taken and placed in the bandanna by the authorities when they were taking it out, one would hope they would put it in an evidence bag instead. But the state made a big deal about the fact that there were several different people's DNA on this bandanna, and that one of the people seems to be somewhat consistent with Julius. Can you elaborate on what that really means, because some people would look at that and go, oh, wait a minute, and you know, if I guess I got the right guy after all? Right, case closed? Um, But the testing indicates that the d n A was degraded and was defined as trace DNA, which suggests that the d NA could have been transferred to the item. So the bandana is found in Julius's house, it's handled by the police, it's in his bedroom. It's very possible that any DNA on there that could be consistent with Julius could come about as a result of the transfer of the d n A. So here's what we're faced with. It seems to me and correct me if I'm wrong on any of these fronts. Julius didn't match the eyewitness description. His hair was short and could never have stuck out from a stocking cap. But Chris Jordan's absolutely could have. Chris Jordan's gave a confession that was riddled with inconsistencies and false as he changed his story numerous times. Chris also admitted to planting the gun exactly where the police founded in Julius's house on more than one occasion. There's no salivary DNA on the bandanna and evidence, and it doesn't seem to be the one that was worn across the shooters or anyone's face anyway. And I'm leaving out other insculpatory stuff. Forget that incompetent defense, forget the racial bias, forget the jury, forget everything. Those facts alone would seem to be enough to unravel this. And then you add to it that the only thing connecting to it are the words of too highly incentivized witnesses, both of whom happened to be career criminals who were maybe an offer they could almost count refused. I mean they were given it, an offer that they would be able to avoid lengthy prison sentences of their own in exchange for their testimony against Julius. Does that pretty much sum it up? That's it? And one would think that, you know, why is Julius even in prison, let alone on death row, but that's not how it turned out. This leads to my next question, Kim, his only contact to the outside world is through letters. Have you gotten letters directly from him or have you corresponded with him in any way? I have, yes, you know, just hearing what he has to say, and I mean, what I can't understand, but I'm so grateful for is someone in Julius's situation who could be so angry at the world, and I don't I don't know how I would act if I was in his situation. But to see the grace that he has and to see how he's fighting through this and won't give up, it inspires me. So I want to fight like I We need him to get out. I mean, just to even know that because he was an athlete, to see a lot of athletes support him and write letters on his behalf now to send to the governor has been so amazing to see, you know, when he was playing ball, Blake Griffin's dad was his coach and its completely in support of Julius and Blake Griffin wrote an amazing, heartfelt letter for the governor to see in support of Julius's release. Russell Westbrook There's been some amazing people that really want to see him released as well, people that grew up there, people that played their Carmelo Anthony who played in Oklahoma for a little while. His wife is my best friend, you know. I sent him all the facts and he wrote a letter as well. It's amazing to see the support that has come together. And I hope that everyone really pays attention before it's too late, because we will not go out easy on this one. So Kim, if you could talk to the governor and you may have that opportunity, I hope um. And we know that the governor of Oklahoma is a guy who cares about criminal justice reform. He's done some positive things for sure. So if you could talk to him, what would you say? Yeah, I would just first of all, love to walk him through the facts of Julius case and explain to him what kind of person Julius is and was before his life was turned upside down. And I've heard he's a really compassionate person and really does care about reform. And I just hope to have that opportunity, And we're going to be presenting him all of these letters of support soon, and I believe that he will pay attention. I have faith in that. It would be hard to imagine that he and the members of the Parole Board wouldn't be moved to take action here. Between the outcry and the public, the support of prominent people, faith leaders and business leaders, so many different people, and the facts of the case cry out for justice. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, everyone always asked me like, well, what can we do? And I think the most important thing to do is call the Governor's office and elected officials that can really make a difference, and just be really loud, and you should go to Justice for Julius Jones dot com first of all, look into his case. Everything is on this website, from the documentary The Last Offense with Viola Davis to where you can sign the petition in favor of Julius, and you can also subscribe to stay up to date on what's going on, and it even gives you a link to email the Parole Board. I do believe that the Parole Board is like in favor of reform. I believe everyone is very compassionate from what I've heard, So I just urge everyone please sign the petition for Julius Jones. If you're moved by his story, I've done it. I believe in him so much. I believe in his innocence. Justice for Julius Jones dot Com. We have a regular feature on the show which is my favorite part of the show, which is where I get to just kick back, turn off my microphone, leave my headphones on and listen. And so what we call this segment closing Arguments, and we're going to hear from Dale ant when at and of course Madeleine, but let's kick things off with you, kim Oh. Thank you for having me on here, and thank you for everything that you do and for showing me the way. Seriously, I look up to you so much, and I'm so grateful to you for sharing so many cases with me and that we're able to hopefully open up people's minds and hearts that might have been a little bit closed off when it comes to reform or might not understood how they could help, and then we're giving them a platform where they can help out and be a part of the conversation and help fight for people that really really deserve it. So thank you, Dale, You've done a fantastic job and I appreciate you making the time. I know it's going to make a difference. Well, thank you, Jason. We have a commutation application pending before the Oklahoma Pardoning Parole Board. Julius is thankful for all the support, the prayers, the letter that he has received that is giving him strength. This case got the attention it deserved when Viola Davis and Julius Tennan produced the last defense that put light on this injustice and wrongful conviction. What's troubling to me, and we should all be concerned about this, is that without the last defense, no one would be interested in this case. Julius would have been just another African American man in prison saying he was innocent, one of the four percent, and no one would care. There are thousands of Julius behind bars today and people should care. And we know you care, Jason, and we appreciate that this struggle isn't over. Thank you very much. Why don't we save mom for last, because you know she's mom, So antoine over to you. So first I would say, did my brother, Julius there is Jones. He did not kill Paul. How my brother is a human being. He is not a number when we consider people human beings and not just numbers, and we really take into account all the facts. I'm just asking them to correct this wrong. I'm asking you to look at all of the key points in this case. I'm asking you to understand that my brother never got a fair defense. He never got a proper defense, he never got a juror of his peers, he never got a chance to voice what happened to him from his side. And I'm just asking you, as a human being to understand and take my brother in consideration as a human being and not a number. He is not a person that would take a life. He is a person that will protect the life. He is a person that cares about everybody's well being. To this day, he cares. He cares more about how everybody else is doing then how he's doing. Side. That's who my brother is. He's a person that cares. He's a loyal person. He is a person that loves life. I never gave up, and I'm still not gonna give up. We shall not give up. We shall not rest. Even though the defense rest for him, we shall not rest. Thank you, thank you, and now for the final words, Madeline. First of all, Julius is a good person. He's very kind. He's loving compassion, and a lot of times he will hurt himself to keep from hurting someone else. And that's the reason he's in predicament he's in now, and I just want to say to the parlorod board that one size does not fit all and that I would like for him to take careful consideration concerning Julius and to look at what he will be able to contribute to society if they spare his life. We just need to try to get things right because when justice is covered up, it stays covered for so long, but it'll either burn through or it will grow. And right now I feel like that justice is growing because uh, it wants to be heard and it wants to be fulfilled what it's really meant to be just for all, not just for some of us. And you know, freedom is worth more than money. My biggest joy is to help my son home and to be about the things that he's dreamed and long to want to do. And I thank God for this opportunity today to be able to express so many things that I've held in Today. I really thank God for you, Jason. I thank God for people like you. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one

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