The money trail is all leading back to a tiny town in Western Australia. But what business did Alan have there, and why was he so interested in its residents?
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Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, Jack Dorsey. It seems like most great tech entrepreneurs have their own story of starting from nothing and making it in the bright lights of Silicon Valley. Alan Metcalf had his own version of Silicon Valley right here in Australia. It was a pilgrimage he made to create his fortune and transform his.
Vision into reality.
Today, my producer Nina Young and I make that same journey following in the footprints Alan left behind in the sand.
Be a triple vit to per.
Pot Deva Java.
When you think about tech mechers, quiet coastal towns in Western Australia probably don't immediately spring to mind. But for Allan, Geraldton and ocean town, with a population of just forty thousand people, about a five hour drive from Perth, was an absolute gold mine. As he raised funds for sakes, four hundred and fifty Geraldon residents contributed about fifteen million dollars. Between them, they made up three quarters of Allen's total shareholders and a third of the overall seed money. It struck me as strange, why this town. I'm Alex Turner Cohen, a finance and investigative reporter from news dot com dot Au and you're listening to the Missing forty nine million. This is episode four, Promised Land.
It's got a port, it's got railways, it's got two hospitals, it's got twenty schools, it's got a university center. It's got everything.
This is Ian Blaney. He was the local state politician for the Geralton electorate for thirteen years. Ian lives in Perth now, so Nina and I stopped by to visit him before we begin our long drive to Geralton. We sit in his air conditioned home, a welcome retreat from the sweltering forty three degree Perth heat. Ian's term ended in twenty twenty one, so I thought maybe his constituents had complained about Alan over the years. It turns out he'd actually met Alan.
The government had started a program called Royalties for Regions, which meant there was more money available for spending in the regions, and so I had various people coming in with ideas of things that they thought could be potentially a Royalties for Regions program. So an MP, if you're in government, you tend to get people who've got ideas and want money, tend to call in and see you quite regularly.
Alan was one of those people coming into pitch. Ian doesn't remember the exact year, but he recalls it was early in his term.
He had quite a good pitch. He could talk quite well. I can remember that he had a concept of build a virtual village to sort of make more communications in the community.
Ian explained that Alan's plan involved giving everyone in Geralton a computer and creating some kind of closed network for the town. He wanted to make Geralton a leader in tech. It was a bit like his plan to turn Townsville into Australia's version of Hollywood in the eighties, which I explored in an earlier episode.
I found it a little bit difficult to be a proponent for it because, to be honest, he might have said he only wanted a million dollars, but that's even a million dollars for governments, not a small amount of money.
So I just thought, no, this is shonky. I don't really want anything to do with it. The whole concept I thought was a bit crazy, I suppose, but you know, when you meet someone who's a true believer in something and there's not a touch of cynicism in there at all, and I suppose that's good salespeople are like that. It was a bit of the fervor of the converted fanatic or something, you know, But I wasn't very receptive.
Ian was also puzzled by Alan's interest in his town, and.
He was very strong that Geralden was the right place at the right time for it to be tried out sort of thing. I don't know why it's settled on Geralton, but there must have been a reason.
Maybe he didn't choose somewhere closer to home because he didn't want to be in a place where there was a chance people might have known him.
I suppose.
As I step back outside and feel myself melting into the pavement from the unrelenting heat, I'm a little excited. I'm on the other side of the country where the bulk of the forty nine million dollars came from. Maybe someone knows more about the money, or at least more about why Alan had his sights set on Geralton. It's time for the next step to speak with some of the Geralton investors, or try to. A few of them are now living in Perth. They haven't It's been very responsive to emails. I just knocked on the door of a man who lived in Perth who used to be from Geraldton. I know he was involved in the Safe Worlds project, and he actually let me into his house and he said he didn't want to talk. He's apparently dealt with journalists before in another life and doesn't trust us, but he was happy for me to lely my details in case he did change his mind. And while he was in another room looking for a pen and paper, his wife came over to me and asked what I was doing there and what this was all about, and I told her I was a journalist doing a report on Safe Worlds, and she immediately rolled her eyes and said I knew it was a scam. And then he came back out and I left all my details behind it. I guess it's up to him if he ever wants to get back in touch, but it was just interesting to see another tale of the man who's all in and the wife who's all out when it comes to Safe Worlds. We tried one more Hello you home.
Okay, it doesn't look like he's here, so I'm just going to leave him a note. I haven't got a phone number for him that I do have an email address, which he hasn't replied to, though it hasn't bounced.
It turns out this investor no longer lives at the address, but the current homeowners pass on my note. He calls me on the number I left and agrees to give me some comments, provided he stays anonymous. This voice actor is reading out what he said during our conversation.
Alan was a con merchant. He took advantage of what was happening in wa. The reason he targeted a lot of farmers was the resources burn. It was all a big con.
There was one investor in Perth willing to meet with us and tell me more. His name is Phil Bardon, only we weren't allowed to go to his house. He said his wife has banned all mention of Safe Worlds in their home.
Wilt's never forgiven me, he begout that tonight. It's been a real bone of attention ever since I mentioned Safe world But I would love to invite you to have place, but she's not a happy girl at the moment.
We record this in my hotel room, with Nina perched on the end of the bed holding the microphone. Phil grips onto pages and pages of documents and emails he's collected over the years, shuffling them as he talks. He got into safe worlds in twenty thirteen after a chance encounter with an old friend.
I bumped into Rod McKay told me that you know, look, you want to earn some money, and I said yes. So I met Rod. And at the time Alan had arranged a meeting with a group of scheerholders over here in Perth. So I went initially to this yearholder's meeting, not knowing what it was about. All I learned at the time that he said he had a secret of AI, and at that time, back twenty thirteen, really set about artificial intelligence. That Ottawa Rod that this company invests money now it was going to float in six weeks time. He didn't force me, he said, it's going to float six weeks time and these year is going to go for one dollar of five dollars overnight.
And can you tell me a.
Bit about Rod?
So how did you know Rod? And where was he from?
I went to the school with Rod in Jeralton many years ago, back in the sixties. Lovely guy. We played tennis together.
In addition, to being a lovely tennis player. Rod McKay is one of Allen's earliest and most devoted disciples. I learned from Phil that Rod is the reason Geraldton turned into a Garden of Eden for the Safeworld's project. I'd heard rumors about someone who invested more than a million dollars. It was nothing more than that a rumor until now. The story goes, Alan and Rodd were sitting next to each other on a flight and got talking. In emails rod scent, which I've obtained, He says he originally owned Alan one point five million dollars. Rod was a wheat and a sheep farmer and sold these farms when he retired. My understanding is that's where the money came from. But Alan couldn't pay it back. He convinced Rod to turn his loan into one point five million dollars worth of safe World shares. Instead, Rod sprouked Safeworlds to people he knew in Geraldon, and he knew a lot of people. In one email Rod sent, he wrote that he personally got four hundred and fifty shareholders on board, bringing in fifteen million dollars worth of investment. Phil met Allan for the first time thanks to Rod.
So what the airport and Rod had album there and I reduced myself to him, and Rod said Phil gonbia an investor, and I said, yes, I am. I hope this is good because I lost money in eighty seven crash.
Phil invested fifty thousand dollars. It wasn't a small out for him and his family. What he received in return was a share certificate. Phil started to get a bad feeling and wanted to pull out, but that didn't go down well.
I read him at Texas said this is not right. I want my money back. He sort of scoffed and said, you're getting yourself into I said to Alan, I've got the secret to levitation, and I'm going to start raising some money. I'm not going to tell you how it works. I was that wild, and I don't know whether I go response back. But I was really niggling him, you know. I said, if you're going to see me, see me. I call him every name under the sun. I'm maybe teen him fifteen email. I was having a couple of years and I never seen me, so I knew that something was right.
Anyway, Alan cut Phil off from all communication about Safe Worlds The only updates he receives now are the ones sent on by his cousin, a man called Warren Bardon.
Look, I put too much trust in people. People get convoys, and they tend to try and spread the demies other people. And this is great and right than a few other quite a few Barnas I think might have spread the word and told people to buy these years. Most people they approached were farmers or every work is like me. You know, I'm not a uni personal any but it's just said. I thought it was a good investment at the time, but I quickly fed. When I fed out, I tried to warn people, and certain people said, look, you know, look that's good. I think some people are still convinced.
If this is starting to sound familiar to you, well, yes, me too. It's just like the enormous success Alan had in securing investments from sugar farmers in the nineteen eighties for his film projects, which I found out about an episode too. It seemed now he turned his attention back to what had worked before, just for a different project, different location, different decade. What was especially different this time was that all of these people in Geraldton needed a little more convincing. Soon Alan was jetting in and out of the town, himself a shepherd, making sure his flock stayed on the right path. It's safe to say Phil is not Alan's biggest fan, as Nina and I discover when she asks him what he'd say.
If you had to describe Metcalf in five words, A.
Big poppers person spoke the andietype of thing just a few words, A convent desateful, a conment. How could you do it? That's not's sorry.
After speaking to Phil, I now want to go to Geryalton and find out more. The missing money is proving elusive, and so far it's harder to get a solid grasp on it than I'd hoped. But maybe a trip to the place at the center of it all will change that. So the next morning, Nina and I begin the long drive out of Perth and on to Geralton. In twenty twenty three, a company named Avenue Perth studied thirty cities in Australia to determine the most livable and least livable town in the country based on the safety index from the average cost of living, number of banks, and number of restaurants. Geraldton took out the non coveted title of least livable town in the country. A glance at the crime statistics and the reviews left on local hotels doesn't paint the brightest picture. Many people online suggested sleeping with a chair against the motel room door.
So here was my question. As we drive into Jerylton. Oh, we just walked Welcome to Geraldton. So we've just driven into Jerylton. So my question was you I have the impression that you're a bit of a type A personality. What do you think about that?
I am a self confessed type A person Me and my roommate both agree on that.
On that note, and very driven.
So what happens if you can't find the money?
I've tried everything I can think of outside of getting court ordered documents, but at this point, a lot of what I know about the money is just a lot of conjecture from people who have theories that could range anywhere from very plausible to very implausible.
Okay, so that's a very type bay answer. Emotionally, how do you feel about if you can't find the money?
Well, I will feel like I've failed a bit in a way because I have told people that I am tracking the money. That's why I'm doing this podcast because I'm trying to find their money. So I feel like I'm not going to be able to tell them at the end of it, I know where your money went, not even that I wasn't able to find it.
I just don't know where it was spent.
So that will be a bit of a shame if.
I can't find it, because that's taking on a lot of pressure. That's a lot of pressure.
Well, yeah, people reached out to me saying can you do something? Can you kind of raise some awareness about this and try to tell me where my money went?
And so far don't have an answer. I have a lot of theories.
And hopefully we confirm some of them up and we can cross some of them out as what's happened body?
What do you think that you What do you think when you kind of.
Set out to answer a question in a story and you get to this point where it's not looking like you can you have a kind of solid answer on it.
I think the journey is the journeys as an answer, here's the non type a response.
What's the expression The journey beats the destination?
Maybe the money was the friends we made along the way.
After a long drive five and a bit hours, we arrive our dead Huntsmand greets me on the welcome out of my motel room. Next time I notice it the spiders not so dead. Body has moved slightly. The area looks like any other quiet coastal town, long stretches of road, drought plagued patches of grass, and plenty of fly in fly out miners around the place, driving up the price of coffee.
Do you want to get something?
Yeah?
How do you think we're going about blending in?
We are not doing great. Nina's big microphone stands out on the bright and sunny foreshore. It's hard to see Allan's vision to turn this place into a virtual village, but maybe the people that live here have another view on things. We ask a couple of ladies walking by if they think Geralton could be Australia's Silicon Valley.
Don't know anything about it?
Is it a mine?
I see? Silicon Valley is like this really innovative place in America where all their startups begin, Like Google all kind of started from Silicon Valley, so it's kind of seen as this really entrepreneurial.
Place to be technology.
Yeah, a real tech take your own place. Why wouldn't you go to Perth for that?
Or are you look they're looking for.
Somewhere different to Perth or yeah, I don't know.
We're the biggest regional town normal.
Per But so you don't think that would be a good idea.
I just feel like during lax a little bit.
So if Geraldon was never going to cut it as a tech center, why would Allan be so interested in the town? A local couple fills us.
In Mainly because there are people with money and sometimes you have limited ideas if you don't have a financial advisor, you just think, oh wow, that sounds great, that sounds like it could work, but maybe they don't do the research. So because there is some money here, because we've got the farming, Yeah, we've got the farming. We've got also the gray fish industry, there are people with money here, and if you're wanting to grow your money and invest I'd say that would probably be the reasons maybe the reasons why. And it's a remoteness from the city as well. And there is also a little bit of a small town, small community mentality too, so you tend to trust people that comes into town.
There are many investors in town, but not many willing to talk to us. Some are still true believers in Allan's vision and others just don't want to think about Safe World ever.
Again.
One man is open to a visit, though, Warren Bardon, a distant cousin of Phil who we'd met in Perth. Warren has lived in geraldon his whole life, and you can tell because he wasn't breaking a sweat in the non air conditioned house we met him in even though the mercury was topping forty four degrees. Warren, his brother and his dad invested in the Safe World's program through Rod McKay, who Phil also mentioned. Unlike Phil, Warren didn't know Rod beforehand.
He was sort of the main player in West Australia Safeworlds. My brother was. He liked the idea and everyone he spoke to one of the pieces of the.
Safewelds and you wanted a piece of it as well. Yeah, so what did they say to you? What did you think it was that made you want a piece of it?
Well, mainly pushing the idea that it's a lot better than Google and it'll overtake Google. We will finish up having its own banking systems and all sorts like that. We were told Alan when he come across here. He said that basically Google at the time was worth ran about thousand dollars a year, and everybody sort of said, wow, it's worth checking some money out. So everyone sort of just jumped on board with it.
When Alan flew into Geraldton and held a meeting for potential investors in town, Warren went along. He can't remember when it was, though he did start investing in two thousand and nine.
Where was the meeting? Was it in a kind of town hall or.
Down the Ocean center down there? The conference room there, and we might ed to check that out in the middle of town there.
And were there many people? How many people?
In thirty or forty?
There was he showing you anything, showcasing anything.
I remember he did try to shower something on the computer, but he couldn't get it sort of work, and probably can sort of blame Telta or something that anyway, So he just kept talking about how great it was.
Even with the text crew up. Warren was convinced and put in some money. The next time Alan came to town, it was more eventful.
The second meeting, a couple of people just walked down the meeting. Really, I remember Alan saying, well, then they run to walkout if they want to walk out something.
Well, do you know why they walked out?
I think they thought it wasn't going to happen.
Yeah, well that's kind of pretty like strong reaction to it.
Were you were you tempted to walk out?
No?
Not really no, no, yeah, Like I said, he's got the idea. And when you speak to people like Rod McKay, well he was actually really on the committee apparently, and he was on the board or whatever you say. He's a very honest person. And I heard he put quite a bit of money in it. And so you work on trust when you're working with those or meet those sort of people.
You know, working on trust. Warren ended up investing big time.
I think I finished up putting him about twenty twenty thousand in. I bought shares for me kids, you know, a couple of thousand shares each, sort of two and half thousand shares each, just in case it did take off and it was going to be as good as what they said, Well, children would have been happy with me.
Later on, doubts slithered into Warren's mind.
I sort of was wondering myself why he would come all the way from Queensland to try and raise money in Drip in Western Australia. It was so good. Should have been able to raise enough money over in Queensland and over his coast.
And he started to notice that Alan was changing the price of shares.
The share price has gone up and down all the time, you know, so when they needed more money, they dropped the price to shares, gave people a bonus shares if they can buy a block of fifty thousand shares.
Yeah, what do you think about that? Because that sounds like it's almost.
I think it's a bit unfair. And the people that bought in earlier, and the people that bought in for say, I heard some people paid five dollars a share. I think it was unfair when he dropped the share plaster a dollar share, I think it was unfair for those people.
Going through the trail of emails Alan left behind which investors have sent to me, I learned some people were sold shares in Safe Worlds for as little as ten cents, while others had to pay five dollars for the privilege, and while Alan seemed to change what he was charging different investors, he continued to drum up money. He was encouraging Warren's father to lend him a further one hundred thousand dollars, and he was nagging him while a bond and family member was in hospital. With concerns mounting, Warren and his family refused to invest anymore.
The thing that sort and we didn't even get any financial reports one to start with it. But there was no financial reports, What's where the money's gone, What's happened?
And what was this over the many years that you were investor.
There, or from two thousand nine or when it was, We never received any how the company's going real?
Actually did that kind of raise some alarm bells for you?
Yeah?
For sure? For sure. There's another another thing that worried me when Allen was in drilt and he made a statement, the company takes a lot of money to keep going. It's taken two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a months. He said that in public, and I thought, well, it can't be possible.
We spend some time looking through Warren and his late father's stock certificates. There's dozens of them. He's found them all and laid them out on his dining room table. These simple a four pieces of paper are the only thing Alan gave shareholders as proof they had a stake in Safe Worlds. For some, it's a reminder that their involvement wasn't just a bad dream.
So look at this here it says this share was made in twenty twelve, and this one was in twenty fourteen, so in okay, so there was a bit slow for that year. So twenty twelve, six hundred and thirty eight shares, and then afterwards it was like less than thirty shares made in that period of time, but then suddenly it exploded the following year in twenty fourteen, another like three hundred shares.
Oh well, look this is share number twelve hundred and eighty four. It's over one thousand, like maybe not one thousand people, but over one thousand certificates.
Certificates were issued.
The more certificates, the more money Alan got. This was pretty eye opening for me. It's a way I can figure out how many single investments were made into the company and how frequently people were investing. War on certificates are on a piece of paper with a green border and an image of an E. It says Safe World's Internet Television, Inc. To the left side at leasts what number this share certificate is, and on the other side it states how many shares you're getting for it. Warren has signed the document I'm describing and bought two thousand shares. There's an official looking gold seal that sits in between the signatures of Alan and his wife Mary at the bottom of the certificate. From speaking to other investors, I know that one man's name was misspelled on his certificate. Others waited months and even years to receive their certificate, and in one case it never arrived. Then I noticed something alarming.
What do you think about this on the back? Have you read this stuff on the back of the share certificate? Have you ever seen that?
Oh?
I've probably read it. But are these shares an issue in Pennsylvania or somewhere apparently?
I know that Alan started the business in the US, but I'm not sure why he would do that when most of the time he was based in Australia. I turn over Warren's certificate and there's a disclaimer.
It reads the securities represented by this certificate have been acquired for investment and have not been registered under the Securities Act of nineteen ninety three of the United States or the securities laws of any state thereof, or any other nation. These securities may not be sold or transferred in the absence of such registration or an exemption they're from under such Act and compliance with any applicable state of foreign securities laws.
When I go back, I realized every certificate has this. It certainly seems like a significant discovery, but maybe this is all perfectly above board. I'll need to look into this when I'm back in Sydney. Nina and I leave Warren's house as the sun sets over Geraldton. It's interesting how a lot of these people that invested, some of them are not that upset about it, you know, even though they invested like twenty five thand dollars. They've just said we just got back from speaking to Warren barn and he said that was money.
You could afford to lose. So these are successful people.
Not everybody has a spare twenty grant drop into a venture.
That may or may not take off.
Nina, what's your theory and why you think these people who are obviously quite good at what they do and are quite successful from a societal perspective, are still kind of putting money.
And not doing any of this due diligence that they should.
Be because they've made their money in a non technology sector. You know, they've made their money through farming, through property, through you know, the old school ways that people would make money. And then you've got this sort of smart looking dude who seems to know what he's talking about about technology, and he's saying all these buzzwords like AI, algorithm, Google, LinkedIn words that like uniquet logic, Yeah, and you can recognize them as being vaguely towards technology. But if you don't know anything about technology, you know, you're not going to.
Know even how to look into that.
So I think that's the secret is he's finding people who have goot amounts of money who are interested in business who he can kind of fool about technology. Yeah, because a lot of these people, like we spoke to Phil London, I think, who worked in furniture retail.
Like as a kind of business owner. Then someone else worked in the health sector. So these are successful people that you know, their own properties and multiple properties. They can drop fifty k on a project like this, But they don't seem to have any of that background, and they don't really seem to understand what the product is. They just keep saying to me every person who've asked lately, I've asked them, what do you think Safe Worlds is? And they just say it was meant to be.
Bigger than Google, bigger than Google.
But when I ask them why, they can't actually explain to me why, what about it was going to be bigger than Google? They just keep saying that kind of Google buzz phrase. Personally, I wouldn't put twenty thousand dollars into something that was told me bigger than Google, but I didn't understand what it actually did. But he was a very good salesman from what I can understand. He always came in a suit, even in Geraldton, which yesterday was about forty nine degrees. At Warren Bardon's farm, which is a little bit further inland, he said it hit fifty degrees. But Alan metcalf is coming in a suit, hiring out a conference center, putting out sandwiches, putting out little finger food like sandwiches. Yeah, and he's there and he's very convincing, and as one person said to me, he was speaking like what he had in his hand was gold, and that was really impressionable on these people. We leave Allan's Promised Land. The next day, when I'm back in Sydney, I can barely wait to speak with an expert about these share certificates.
My name is Besta and A I am the investments and portfolio manager at UNSW Founders.
Besta decides which startups the University of New southwayes should back and which ones they shouldn't. I meet in her office countless startup founders have no doubt sat in the same chair I'm perched in, trying to convince her they'll be the next Steve Jobs. Only I'm here for a different reason. I show her the Safe World certificate.
It doesn't sound legitimate at all. It doesn't sound like they had any of the right legal documents in place. I mean, these people should have all received like shareholders agreements and were completely over the process.
It says it's cocorporated under the laws of Pennsylvania, but then on the back it says it's not incorporated under any law.
I think the disclaimer throws me. I think that's the main part. Yeah, it's weird, isn't it.
BESTA taps away on her laptop and turns it around so I can see the screen. So you've just pulled up an example of what a legitimate share certificate looks like. Just describe to me what you're looking at and how it's different to that other document I showed you.
The difference is that it actually says that the company is incorporated in New South Wales under the Corporation's Act, so it is registered in Australia, unlike the other one, than not being registered in the US or anywhere anywhere.
Yeah, so how many pages is this document? At least thirty pages from the look of it, and this is this.
Much longer, you know, depending on I guess at what stage the company is raising capital and how much funding and how many shareholders coming in. Yeah, but basically these are all the different rights and how it works. If a company was to change anything in their shareholding.
And these people just direct transferred to him and got their shares to forget two months later or never, So what.
Do you think about that?
Maybe they're not actually shareholders, like maybe they just took their money.
I've been trying to figure that out, and I thought Geraldon might have the answer. Although I had to return home mostly empty handed, I feel close defining the money and understanding the man who took it, and more inspired to do so. For the record, while I didn't see Geraldton as Australia's Silicon Valley, the scenery was beautiful and the people were kind and welcoming, I don't think it lived up to the least Livable City title. My biggest takeaway from the trip is that the key to gaining followers to your cause is to have a true believer by your side, a man of the people who can proselytize on your behalf. That man, for Alan was Rod McKay. While I tried many times to have a chat with Rod, my attempts were futile until finally I got this short response. A voice actor is reading it out.
What is your agenda with Safe Worlds and or what are you trying to achieve? Any suggestions that safe world is a scam are misleading. Proof of this is the review of the software by a leading academic INAI I.
Tell him I'm looking for the missing money. There are no more messages from him. Rod was Allen's most devoted disciple. But as I would soon discover cracks were appearing in his faith, he would turn on the man he most respected, and he would go on to become the biggest enemy of safe worlds, a judas in the eyes of the Metcalfs.
The time for delusion is over. You have overseen the demise of a fifty million dollar company made up predominantly of mum and dad investors.
Clayton, I pledge we commit to commercialize this technology and take it to the world to fulfill his dream. I know that this sounds impossible, but Jesus said, with men, it's impossible, but not with God. For with God all things are possible.
We are as anxious as all shareholders are to see this matter concluded soon, and on the best of terms, I am doing everything I can to achieve this.
Look after yourself and your shareholders who have committed themselves to you and your hospital ideas.
Keep them close, as they are the only real thing in this whole sorry affair.
That's next time on the Missing forty nine million. Thanks for listening. A new episode is coming out weekly. Wherever you get your podcasts, make sure you subscribe so you don't miss an episode, head to news dot com dot Au to read more of my reporting on this story.
Do you know more?
Get in touch through our dedicated tip inbox Missing Millions at news dot com dot au or contact me directly on Alex dot Turner, Dash Cohen at news dot com dodau or look me up on Twitter to get my details. I'm your host, Alex Turner Cohen. Nina Young is the executive producer, sound design and editing by Tiffany Dimack. Our editorial director is Dan Box. Grant McAvaney is our legal advisor, and Kerrie Warren is the editor of News dot com dood AU. Special thanks to our voice actors Jack Evans and John ty Burton.