This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

She was constantly nursing thoughts and dreams of revenge, revenge against her husband, revenge against the vice cop Andrew McLaughlin, and hopes of one day being reunited with her daughter.

She was constantly nursing thoughts and dreams of revenge, revenge against her husband, revenge against the vice cop Andrew McLaughlin, and hopes of one day being reunited with her daughter.

I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, research for my many audio and book projects has taken me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the unpublished details behind their stories. I had never heard of the tragic case of former vaudeville star Vivian Gordon in nineteen thirties New York. She had threatened some of the city's most powerful men, and at least one of them wanted her dead. Her murder in nineteen thirty one caused the downfall of the mayor of New York City. Author Michael Woolrich wrote a book about Gordon and her death called The Bishop and the Butterfly, Murder, Politics and the End of the jazz Age. So this book, really, I know, it's a lot of corruption. Deep history can tell how much research that you've done on it. But to me, what I took away from it was it really boils down to the victim. We know now that victims, particularly female victims, can just get lost in everything, all of the media, all of the who's involved, the speculation, the corruption that comes from it. Who is to blame. So let's start with Vivian Gordon, who we know is going to be the victim. So tell me about her from the beginning, what you know about her that sort of sets up her character.

I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, research for my many audio and book projects has taken me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the unpublished details behind their stories. I had never heard of the tragic case of former vaudeville star Vivian Gordon in nineteen thirties New York. She had threatened some of the city's most powerful men, and at least one of them wanted her dead. Her murder in nineteen thirty one caused the downfall of the mayor of New York City. Author Michael Woolrich wrote a book about Gordon and her death called The Bishop and the Butterfly, Murder, Politics and the End of the jazz Age. So this book, really, I know, it's a lot of corruption. Deep history can tell how much research that you've done on it. But to me, what I took away from it was it really boils down to the victim. We know now that victims, particularly female victims, can just get lost in everything, all of the media, all of the who's involved, the speculation, the corruption that comes from it. Who is to blame. So let's start with Vivian Gordon, who we know is going to be the victim. So tell me about her from the beginning, what you know about her that sort of sets up her character.

Yeah, so we don't know a lot about her childhood and younger days. She was born in Indiana in Michigan City, Indiana, to middle class family. Her father was a prison warden in Chicago. She had a tough upbringing. There were reports of her being in a Catholic boarding school and attempting suicide. Definitely had a challenging home life. At one point, she and her siblings were in an orphanage in Chicago, and it's not exactly clear why, because both her parents were around. Her mother was living somewhere else. Her father was not listed in the census. Later on he filed for divorce, accusing her of poisoning him. So a lot of times you children end up in orphanages not because their parents had died, but because they couldn't raise them. My assumption is that her mother was probably unfit and her father was a prison warden, so at this time they were briefly in the orphanage and then off to the boarding school. So she definitely had a troubled youth, but seemed to pull it together, you know, by the time she came an adult, she was She became a vaudeville actor and would would tour the East Coast. She was born beneath Franklin and then met her husband while on the stage, John Bischoff, so she became Benita Bischoff, and they settled down in Philadelphia and had a daughter, also named Benita. I'm going to refer to the elder Bernita as Viaving Gordon, because that's, you know, how she was later known, and that also distinguished her from her daughter, So she was devoted to her daughter, Bernita. Her her friends talked about, you know, how much she loved her daughter and how important her daughter was to her life. But she was also, like some parents, kind of made the mistake of transferring her own failed ambitions onto her daughter. So she taught her daughter to dance. He taught Benita to dance, and Anita was very talented, was actually performing professionally at the age of her around seven in Philadelphia. This caused friction in her marriage because her husband, John Bischoff did not want Benita to be performing professionally. They fought, apparently fought rather badly, and Vivian Gordon left. She took her daughter to New York. They checked into a hotel near Times Square that would be convenient for auditions, and Benita was trying out for the stage because you know, in the New York was where it's at before Hollywood. New York was where you came to make it, and there were a lot of a lot of the stars of the era were actually had begun their careers as children. May West, Fred.

Yeah, so we don't know a lot about her childhood and younger days. She was born in Indiana in Michigan City, Indiana, to middle class family. Her father was a prison warden in Chicago. She had a tough upbringing. There were reports of her being in a Catholic boarding school and attempting suicide. Definitely had a challenging home life. At one point, she and her siblings were in an orphanage in Chicago, and it's not exactly clear why, because both her parents were around. Her mother was living somewhere else. Her father was not listed in the census. Later on he filed for divorce, accusing her of poisoning him. So a lot of times you children end up in orphanages not because their parents had died, but because they couldn't raise them. My assumption is that her mother was probably unfit and her father was a prison warden, so at this time they were briefly in the orphanage and then off to the boarding school. So she definitely had a troubled youth, but seemed to pull it together, you know, by the time she came an adult, she was She became a vaudeville actor and would would tour the East Coast. She was born beneath Franklin and then met her husband while on the stage, John Bischoff, so she became Benita Bischoff, and they settled down in Philadelphia and had a daughter, also named Benita. I'm going to refer to the elder Bernita as Viaving Gordon, because that's, you know, how she was later known, and that also distinguished her from her daughter, So she was devoted to her daughter, Bernita. Her her friends talked about, you know, how much she loved her daughter and how important her daughter was to her life. But she was also, like some parents, kind of made the mistake of transferring her own failed ambitions onto her daughter. So she taught her daughter to dance. He taught Benita to dance, and Anita was very talented, was actually performing professionally at the age of her around seven in Philadelphia. This caused friction in her marriage because her husband, John Bischoff did not want Benita to be performing professionally. They fought, apparently fought rather badly, and Vivian Gordon left. She took her daughter to New York. They checked into a hotel near Times Square that would be convenient for auditions, and Benita was trying out for the stage because you know, in the New York was where it's at before Hollywood. New York was where you came to make it, and there were a lot of a lot of the stars of the era were actually had begun their careers as children. May West, Fred.

Astaire, Shirley Temple, Yeah, exactly.

Astaire, Shirley Temple, Yeah, exactly.

So Vivin wanted this for her daughter, and they were trying to make it and then something happened that changed their lives. It was on March ninth, nineteen twenty three, Vivian Gordon was arrested on prostitution charges. It was actually the charge was vacancy. They didn't have There was no official crime of prostitution. Vagrancy was as catch all that included homelessness, alcoholism, but in the case of young women it was invariably prostitution. And they had a special court down in Greenwich Village was a beautiful red brick courthouse. There was a court that was specifically for women and it was a bit of a scene, you know, men New Yorkers would come, men from New York and wo would come and sit in the galleries and ogel the accused sex workers as they were being tried. And this is what happened to Vivin Gordon. On the advice of her lawyer, she pleaded guilty and asked for mercy from the judge. From the magistrates as they called them, did not give her mercy. It was her verse conviction. She should have been paroled, she also had a young daughter. Instead, he sentenced her to a reformatory upstate that was supposed to reform wayward women. And while she was incarcerated, her husband sued for divorce, took custody full custody of their daughter, Benita, and prohibited Viving Gordon from ever seeing her daughter. Again.

So Vivin wanted this for her daughter, and they were trying to make it and then something happened that changed their lives. It was on March ninth, nineteen twenty three, Vivian Gordon was arrested on prostitution charges. It was actually the charge was vacancy. They didn't have There was no official crime of prostitution. Vagrancy was as catch all that included homelessness, alcoholism, but in the case of young women it was invariably prostitution. And they had a special court down in Greenwich Village was a beautiful red brick courthouse. There was a court that was specifically for women and it was a bit of a scene, you know, men New Yorkers would come, men from New York and wo would come and sit in the galleries and ogel the accused sex workers as they were being tried. And this is what happened to Vivin Gordon. On the advice of her lawyer, she pleaded guilty and asked for mercy from the judge. From the magistrates as they called them, did not give her mercy. It was her verse conviction. She should have been paroled, she also had a young daughter. Instead, he sentenced her to a reformatory upstate that was supposed to reform wayward women. And while she was incarcerated, her husband sued for divorce, took custody full custody of their daughter, Benita, and prohibited Viving Gordon from ever seeing her daughter. Again.

Let's go back and talk about the timeline. So she and Benita, younger Benita go to New York and you said they started staying at like what a boarding house or a hotel or something like that.

Let's go back and talk about the timeline. So she and Benita, younger Benita go to New York and you said they started staying at like what a boarding house or a hotel or something like that.

Yeah, I love New York. Stayed and there were residential hotels. They would have short term and long term rentals.

Yeah, I love New York. Stayed and there were residential hotels. They would have short term and long term rentals.

Okay, so was younger Benita? She was seven at the time, she was eight, she was eight. How old was Vivian Gordon at this time? Do we know, like in their twenties?

Okay, so was younger Benita? She was seven at the time, she was eight, she was eight. How old was Vivian Gordon at this time? Do we know, like in their twenties?

Maybe she was twenty nine?

Maybe she was twenty nine?

Okay, So how many years is it while they are struggling in all of this until she is arrested for vagrancy? And do we have evidence that she was a sex worker?

Okay, So how many years is it while they are struggling in all of this until she is arrested for vagrancy? And do we have evidence that she was a sex worker?

So she was only it was only a few months. I mean she had she had started seeing other men while she was in New York. We don't have evidence other than that one cops testimony that she was a sex worker. She told her parole officer that she had met. This officer's name was Andrew McLaughlin. She had told him she was she was running out of money, and she told him her sobs story about you know, trying to make it in New York, and she said that he slipped twenty dollars into her stocking and then arrested her. Wow, So she told the parole officer. Despite seeing guilty, she told the parole officer that she'd been framed. And she surmised that her ex husband had actually conspired with the vice Andrew McLaughlin to arrest her in order to win custody at Benita.

So she was only it was only a few months. I mean she had she had started seeing other men while she was in New York. We don't have evidence other than that one cops testimony that she was a sex worker. She told her parole officer that she had met. This officer's name was Andrew McLaughlin. She had told him she was she was running out of money, and she told him her sobs story about you know, trying to make it in New York, and she said that he slipped twenty dollars into her stocking and then arrested her. Wow, So she told the parole officer. Despite seeing guilty, she told the parole officer that she'd been framed. And she surmised that her ex husband had actually conspired with the vice Andrew McLaughlin to arrest her in order to win custody at Benita.

Her husband, John would have reached out from Philadelphia to New York to set this whole thing up. Is that your understanding.

Her husband, John would have reached out from Philadelphia to New York to set this whole thing up. Is that your understanding.

That's what she thought he did. He was politically connected, So it's it's certainly possible.

That's what she thought he did. He was politically connected, So it's it's certainly possible.

So she is arrested and she is sent to this reformatory. You said it's upstate, Is that right?

So she is arrested and she is sent to this reformatory. You said it's upstate, Is that right?

Yes, it's in Bedford Hills. It's in Westchester. The reformatory was supposed to be was supposed to reform women, show them, you know, how to teach them skills that they could find, you know, legal respectable work on the outside. But as as Vivian wrote to her sister, it was, it was quite the opposite. First of all, it was a prison, you know, despite the trappings, there was physical punishment. Women were like hung from their wrists for infractions. There were riots at this place, and there were abuses by the ward and the people who ran it. So Vivian wrote to her sister, you know, this place is supposed to reform me, but it's actually achieved the opposite. There are a lot of women here. She described them as dreadful. She said, she learned everything everything in the underworld I learned from these women. And these skills were actually quite helpful to her when she got to the outside, but not in the way that the authorities had hoped.

Yes, it's in Bedford Hills. It's in Westchester. The reformatory was supposed to be was supposed to reform women, show them, you know, how to teach them skills that they could find, you know, legal respectable work on the outside. But as as Vivian wrote to her sister, it was, it was quite the opposite. First of all, it was a prison, you know, despite the trappings, there was physical punishment. Women were like hung from their wrists for infractions. There were riots at this place, and there were abuses by the ward and the people who ran it. So Vivian wrote to her sister, you know, this place is supposed to reform me, but it's actually achieved the opposite. There are a lot of women here. She described them as dreadful. She said, she learned everything everything in the underworld I learned from these women. And these skills were actually quite helpful to her when she got to the outside, but not in the way that the authorities had hoped.

So her daughter is now with her now ex husband back in Philadelphia, right, and she is released after how long.

So her daughter is now with her now ex husband back in Philadelphia, right, and she is released after how long.

So she was in and out. She was first paroled after six months, but then sent back for parole violations, one of which was traveling out of state because she tried to go to Philadelphia to see her daughter, and there were other infractions at that point. At that point, she actually had become a sex worker, and we started to engage in a number of other crimes that eventually made her quite successful in the in the underworld.

So she was in and out. She was first paroled after six months, but then sent back for parole violations, one of which was traveling out of state because she tried to go to Philadelphia to see her daughter, and there were other infractions at that point. At that point, she actually had become a sex worker, and we started to engage in a number of other crimes that eventually made her quite successful in the in the underworld.

So Vivian Gordon goes from a vaudeville actor to you know, marrying this man, having an unhappy marriage and kind of scooping her daughter up and trying to have a better life in New York, only for it to completely devolve sounds like pretty quickly. And I have no doubt between prohibition and you know, the cracking down of crime as much as possible in that time period. In nineteen twenty three, she gets swept up in something and then just numerous wrong turns based on who she's surrounded by. Is that a pretty a brief summary of where we are with this story up until what nineteen twenty four? Maybe?

So Vivian Gordon goes from a vaudeville actor to you know, marrying this man, having an unhappy marriage and kind of scooping her daughter up and trying to have a better life in New York, only for it to completely devolve sounds like pretty quickly. And I have no doubt between prohibition and you know, the cracking down of crime as much as possible in that time period. In nineteen twenty three, she gets swept up in something and then just numerous wrong turns based on who she's surrounded by. Is that a pretty a brief summary of where we are with this story up until what nineteen twenty four? Maybe?

Yeah, I would say so, I mean into this kind of continued into through the nineteen twenties. It was after the prison when she ad adopted this alias Vivian Gordon, and she started off essentially kind of a pretty conventional sex worker, but she she had a lot of other talents. You know, at this time, this was a big time for the braws in New York. They were the brothels were cool, intellectuals, writers, journalists, hung out men as well as women would they'd hang out in the salons before migrating to the bedroom, and so at the high end brothels such as that Polly Adler was one of the famous New York Adams of the era. A conversation and culture and sophistication were expected, and Viving Gordon had all these. She was very intelligent, she was accomplished. She was a painter, a musician, very well read. So she really thrived in that kind of atmosphere, in that kind of situation, and then she branched out into other ways of making money. She recruited a network of cabby's and bus boys at hotels, and they would steer potential customers targets towards to her, to her hotel room, to her table at the nightclub, and she would, you know what they called. Then she would make money as a gold digar. She would entertain these men and live off their largesse at least as long as it lasted, and then oftentimes after the fair was over, she would blackmail them.

Yeah, I would say so, I mean into this kind of continued into through the nineteen twenties. It was after the prison when she ad adopted this alias Vivian Gordon, and she started off essentially kind of a pretty conventional sex worker, but she she had a lot of other talents. You know, at this time, this was a big time for the braws in New York. They were the brothels were cool, intellectuals, writers, journalists, hung out men as well as women would they'd hang out in the salons before migrating to the bedroom, and so at the high end brothels such as that Polly Adler was one of the famous New York Adams of the era. A conversation and culture and sophistication were expected, and Viving Gordon had all these. She was very intelligent, she was accomplished. She was a painter, a musician, very well read. So she really thrived in that kind of atmosphere, in that kind of situation, and then she branched out into other ways of making money. She recruited a network of cabby's and bus boys at hotels, and they would steer potential customers targets towards to her, to her hotel room, to her table at the nightclub, and she would, you know what they called. Then she would make money as a gold digar. She would entertain these men and live off their largesse at least as long as it lasted, and then oftentimes after the fair was over, she would blackmail them.

Oh wow, okay, And this would have inevitably to tease what's going to happen going forward? Really put her in some significant danger. I'm presuming from a lot of different angles, if she has potentially powerful men coming in in vulnerable positions with her, and then she's blackmailing as in what I'm going to your wife to tell you what happened, or I'm pregnant and you're going to have to support the child, or what.

Oh wow, okay, And this would have inevitably to tease what's going to happen going forward? Really put her in some significant danger. I'm presuming from a lot of different angles, if she has potentially powerful men coming in in vulnerable positions with her, and then she's blackmailing as in what I'm going to your wife to tell you what happened, or I'm pregnant and you're going to have to support the child, or what.

Different ways you know, she would she would hide her mink coat and then you know, you know, accuse the man of stealing it. She would you know, threaten to create a scene and you know the police would come over, so you know, whatever she could do to embarrass the man to kind of course him into giving her money. And then she had she had a boyfriend who was Aklan lawyer who had a clean reputation but worked with her on these crimes, and he would go to the man and collect the money.

Different ways you know, she would she would hide her mink coat and then you know, you know, accuse the man of stealing it. She would you know, threaten to create a scene and you know the police would come over, so you know, whatever she could do to embarrass the man to kind of course him into giving her money. And then she had she had a boyfriend who was Aklan lawyer who had a clean reputation but worked with her on these crimes, and he would go to the man and collect the money.

Did you get a sense from her, just from what you know of Vivian Gordon, that this was a challenge that she enjoyed, she enjoyed the criminal enterprise, or really was at its heart pain that she was going through losing her daughter and she had hardened and this was survival for her or was there somewhere in between.

Did you get a sense from her, just from what you know of Vivian Gordon, that this was a challenge that she enjoyed, she enjoyed the criminal enterprise, or really was at its heart pain that she was going through losing her daughter and she had hardened and this was survival for her or was there somewhere in between.

Yeah, I'll go with see all the above. I mean, she did seem to enjoy thrills, she did like living on the edge, but she was also extremely bitter and extremely cynical. I mean, her life had been destroyed her. You know, what mattered most to her had been taken away from her, and she didn't care anymore. She didn't care about you know, she no longer formed these kind of attachments. She no longer had as much of a conscience, and she was constantly nursing kind of thoughts and dreams of revenge, revenge against her husband, revenge against the vice cop Andrew McLaughlin, and hopes of one day being reunited with her daughter.

Yeah, I'll go with see all the above. I mean, she did seem to enjoy thrills, she did like living on the edge, but she was also extremely bitter and extremely cynical. I mean, her life had been destroyed her. You know, what mattered most to her had been taken away from her, and she didn't care anymore. She didn't care about you know, she no longer formed these kind of attachments. She no longer had as much of a conscience, and she was constantly nursing kind of thoughts and dreams of revenge, revenge against her husband, revenge against the vice cop Andrew McLaughlin, and hopes of one day being reunited with her daughter.

What would have been her likely outcome? Do you think had she not met Andrew McLaughlin and he had if she's telling the truth, which I would assume she is at this point, had slipped in this twenty dollars and had her arrested, would she have gone back? Do you think at some point or did she have any kind of a backup plan that you know of, if Benita young, Benita's acting career or dance career had not come through.

What would have been her likely outcome? Do you think had she not met Andrew McLaughlin and he had if she's telling the truth, which I would assume she is at this point, had slipped in this twenty dollars and had her arrested, would she have gone back? Do you think at some point or did she have any kind of a backup plan that you know of, if Benita young, Benita's acting career or dance career had not come through.

I suspect, you know, this was the nineteen twenties, and it was you know, it was very difficult. There were professional women, but it was very difficult to have a legal profession as a woman. And while she was very intelligent, she didn't have, you know, a particular skill set other than the acting that she could fall back on. My guess is that she would have, you know, try to find a wealthy boyfriend who would support her. And you know, she thought, she hoped that this Andrew McLoughlin would, because he was undercover, pretending to be just this rich guy. You know, perhaps she saw him as a potential savior.

I suspect, you know, this was the nineteen twenties, and it was you know, it was very difficult. There were professional women, but it was very difficult to have a legal profession as a woman. And while she was very intelligent, she didn't have, you know, a particular skill set other than the acting that she could fall back on. My guess is that she would have, you know, try to find a wealthy boyfriend who would support her. And you know, she thought, she hoped that this Andrew McLoughlin would, because he was undercover, pretending to be just this rich guy. You know, perhaps she saw him as a potential savior.

Now did she ever see him again over this decade after she had been released from the reformatory, but before what happens to her happens.

Now did she ever see him again over this decade after she had been released from the reformatory, but before what happens to her happens.

She did not see him, but she did write him. Okay, there's a bit of background I need to bring out here. She's doing quite well through nineteen twenty nine. You know, it's the roaring twenties. Business is booming. There are lots of men around with swollen wallets and swollen libidos that you know, she was able to take advantage of. She even you know, she recruited younger women to work for her. She called them her young forty nine ers, and she taught them her trade. She loaned money to gangsters, she invested in a bank robbery and Norway of all places. But then the crash happened in nineteen twenty nine. She amassed a fair amount of money she got invest in real estate and stocks. All that quickly became worthless and her income sources dried up. Now this was happening to a lot of New Yorkers at this time in different ways. And you know, people during the Roaring twenties, when life was good, people didn't pay too much attention to corruption or what was going on city government or among the cops, as long as they were getting their paycheck and having fun at the nightclubs and the speakeasies. But after the depression set in, people started to take a second look at what had happened to their city during this prohibition era, and you know, started seeing all the corruption and the crime that had happened. And after a series of scandals, the governor at that time, Franklin Delana Roosevelt, under political pressure, decided to launch an investigation into corruption in New York City. And that investigation turned up, you know, judges taking bribes, It turned up some mobster connections. What really shook the city was they uncovered a conspiracy in the women's court where Vieven Gordon had been convicted seven years earlier. A conspiracy between cops, defense attorneys, bail bondsmen, and prosecutors to frame innocent women for prostitution.

She did not see him, but she did write him. Okay, there's a bit of background I need to bring out here. She's doing quite well through nineteen twenty nine. You know, it's the roaring twenties. Business is booming. There are lots of men around with swollen wallets and swollen libidos that you know, she was able to take advantage of. She even you know, she recruited younger women to work for her. She called them her young forty nine ers, and she taught them her trade. She loaned money to gangsters, she invested in a bank robbery and Norway of all places. But then the crash happened in nineteen twenty nine. She amassed a fair amount of money she got invest in real estate and stocks. All that quickly became worthless and her income sources dried up. Now this was happening to a lot of New Yorkers at this time in different ways. And you know, people during the Roaring twenties, when life was good, people didn't pay too much attention to corruption or what was going on city government or among the cops, as long as they were getting their paycheck and having fun at the nightclubs and the speakeasies. But after the depression set in, people started to take a second look at what had happened to their city during this prohibition era, and you know, started seeing all the corruption and the crime that had happened. And after a series of scandals, the governor at that time, Franklin Delana Roosevelt, under political pressure, decided to launch an investigation into corruption in New York City. And that investigation turned up, you know, judges taking bribes, It turned up some mobster connections. What really shook the city was they uncovered a conspiracy in the women's court where Vieven Gordon had been convicted seven years earlier. A conspiracy between cops, defense attorneys, bail bondsmen, and prosecutors to frame innocent women for prostitution.

And how did they do that? Did they have somebody who was a whistleblower or how was it? How do you uncover something like that that clearly encompasses so many people in order for the framework to stay up and they can continue to convict people.

And how did they do that? Did they have somebody who was a whistleblower or how was it? How do you uncover something like that that clearly encompasses so many people in order for the framework to stay up and they can continue to convict people.

So to arrest women, in particular for vagrancy, they would use civilians known as stool pigeons, and they would pay these men, sometimes as much as fifty dollars a day, which was a lot, to solicit women and give them marked bills. And then as soon as that had happened, the cops than Russian and arrest the women. Now question was how did the cops pay, you know, on their meager salaries, pay for these tool pigeons. One of these tool pigeons, he was a Chilean immigrant. His name was Chili a Cuna. He walked into the office one day of the lead investigator. The lead investigator's name was Samuel Seabury. He was a former judge whom FDR had handpicked to run this investigation. Very moralistic, upright guy. Chili Acuna came into his office and said he had a story to tell. He told Seabury and the other investigators about how he had been making his living for the past few years. He said he was rapped by guilt. He wanted to get out of this life, but he couldn't because he feared for his life from the cops who had employed him. He explained what he'd been doing for the cops, and he told Seabury that many of the women that whose arrest he'd participated in had actually been innocent. He told one story about how he went into one a landlady's apartment and you know, asked, you know, said he was interested and having good time, and she kicked him out, and the cops said, no, we need to make a caller go back in there. So he goes back in there, decides he's going to offer money. He's like, sorry, I made a mistake. I really just want to rent a room, and he hadn't even given her money, and then the cops rushed in, arrested her, beat up her husband, who you know, was accused of running a disorderly house. And what they would do then, ascun explained to Seabury. They would take these women down to the women's court. They would drop them off with the bondsman who was in on the scheme, and the bondsman would you know, charge the woman a very high fee, and then he would transfer her, you know, refer her to a defense attorney who work in the same office, and that defense attorney would charge an even higher fee, and he'd said, if you pay my fee, I can get you off. And if the woman had money and paid his fee, then he would distribute kickbacks to the bondsman, to the cop, he'd bribe the prosecutor, and he'd arrange for the woman to get off. Either the cop wouldn't show up, or the prosecutor would drop the charges and the woman would you know, emerge with her reputation intact. If, on the other hand, this woman couldn't afford the lawyer, then she was almost invariably convicted and sent to bed for just like Phabean Gordon.

So to arrest women, in particular for vagrancy, they would use civilians known as stool pigeons, and they would pay these men, sometimes as much as fifty dollars a day, which was a lot, to solicit women and give them marked bills. And then as soon as that had happened, the cops than Russian and arrest the women. Now question was how did the cops pay, you know, on their meager salaries, pay for these tool pigeons. One of these tool pigeons, he was a Chilean immigrant. His name was Chili a Cuna. He walked into the office one day of the lead investigator. The lead investigator's name was Samuel Seabury. He was a former judge whom FDR had handpicked to run this investigation. Very moralistic, upright guy. Chili Acuna came into his office and said he had a story to tell. He told Seabury and the other investigators about how he had been making his living for the past few years. He said he was rapped by guilt. He wanted to get out of this life, but he couldn't because he feared for his life from the cops who had employed him. He explained what he'd been doing for the cops, and he told Seabury that many of the women that whose arrest he'd participated in had actually been innocent. He told one story about how he went into one a landlady's apartment and you know, asked, you know, said he was interested and having good time, and she kicked him out, and the cops said, no, we need to make a caller go back in there. So he goes back in there, decides he's going to offer money. He's like, sorry, I made a mistake. I really just want to rent a room, and he hadn't even given her money, and then the cops rushed in, arrested her, beat up her husband, who you know, was accused of running a disorderly house. And what they would do then, ascun explained to Seabury. They would take these women down to the women's court. They would drop them off with the bondsman who was in on the scheme, and the bondsman would you know, charge the woman a very high fee, and then he would transfer her, you know, refer her to a defense attorney who work in the same office, and that defense attorney would charge an even higher fee, and he'd said, if you pay my fee, I can get you off. And if the woman had money and paid his fee, then he would distribute kickbacks to the bondsman, to the cop, he'd bribe the prosecutor, and he'd arrange for the woman to get off. Either the cop wouldn't show up, or the prosecutor would drop the charges and the woman would you know, emerge with her reputation intact. If, on the other hand, this woman couldn't afford the lawyer, then she was almost invariably convicted and sent to bed for just like Phabean Gordon.

Okay, yeah, I was wondering how that was working, where the money was coming from, how these people were getting kickbacks. So that's an interesting scheme. How long was this women's court conspiracy going on? As far as you can tell, I.

Okay, yeah, I was wondering how that was working, where the money was coming from, how these people were getting kickbacks. So that's an interesting scheme. How long was this women's court conspiracy going on? As far as you can tell, I.

Would say at least a decade. Wow, you know this was of course, once this news broke, I mean New Yorkers were outraged, you know, and they started the FDR. You made a statement, He's like, I will pardon any woman who's been a victim of these heinous crimes. And Seaberry and his investigators started grilling cops and you know, they checked, they found out, you know, they have you know, all these wealthy cops who are you know, clearly getting money from somewhere else, and they would grill them about, you know, where they get their money, and the cops would say like, oh, you know I had a rich uncle, or I won the money in the horses. So Gordon was reading these you know, reading these stories in the press and validated whathich she believed had happened to her, especially when that Andrew McLaughlin turned out to be one of the cops who was dragged into this scandal. So she now at last had her means of revenge. Revenge and you know, hopefully being reunited with her daughter. So she met with one of Seabury's investigators. She told her story. He you know, said, okay, we need some evidence to back this up. You know, go back, collect some evidence and we'll meet again. And she at that point, somewhat inadvisedly sent a letter to Andrew McLachlin and to her husband, John Bischoff, the's gloating triumphant letters, warning them that she had you know, that she was going to tell everything to the Seabird investigation and they were going to get her due and then you know, she would get her daughter back. She did not meet with the investigator again. Five days after their meeting, she was murdered.

Would say at least a decade. Wow, you know this was of course, once this news broke, I mean New Yorkers were outraged, you know, and they started the FDR. You made a statement, He's like, I will pardon any woman who's been a victim of these heinous crimes. And Seaberry and his investigators started grilling cops and you know, they checked, they found out, you know, they have you know, all these wealthy cops who are you know, clearly getting money from somewhere else, and they would grill them about, you know, where they get their money, and the cops would say like, oh, you know I had a rich uncle, or I won the money in the horses. So Gordon was reading these you know, reading these stories in the press and validated whathich she believed had happened to her, especially when that Andrew McLaughlin turned out to be one of the cops who was dragged into this scandal. So she now at last had her means of revenge. Revenge and you know, hopefully being reunited with her daughter. So she met with one of Seabury's investigators. She told her story. He you know, said, okay, we need some evidence to back this up. You know, go back, collect some evidence and we'll meet again. And she at that point, somewhat inadvisedly sent a letter to Andrew McLachlin and to her husband, John Bischoff, the's gloating triumphant letters, warning them that she had you know, that she was going to tell everything to the Seabird investigation and they were going to get her due and then you know, she would get her daughter back. She did not meet with the investigator again. Five days after their meeting, she was murdered.

I have a question that's just sort of been bugging me. So she is caught doing something that probably she really wasn't doing. You know, we believe her. Andrew McLaughlin set her up. She is sent to this reformatory and everything falls apart for her, and yet she has never caught for every flippant illegal thing she did after that? Is that right? She has never caught after that? Why? Because she's so smart that she learned everything in the reformatory.

I have a question that's just sort of been bugging me. So she is caught doing something that probably she really wasn't doing. You know, we believe her. Andrew McLaughlin set her up. She is sent to this reformatory and everything falls apart for her, and yet she has never caught for every flippant illegal thing she did after that? Is that right? She has never caught after that? Why? Because she's so smart that she learned everything in the reformatory.

She was smart She was occasionally arrested but never convicted. Her only conviction was that time in nineteen twenty three. She was careful about how she did it, and there was a lot of crime going on in New York at that time. There were a lot of you know, very serious gangsters, bootleggers, making a lot of money, and they weren't getting caught either. So it was you know, the system, the cops. Many of the cops, they weren't just corrupt, they were also incompetent. Some of them. A lot of times they weren't even interested in solving the case, especially if there was some connection back to the police department.

She was smart She was occasionally arrested but never convicted. Her only conviction was that time in nineteen twenty three. She was careful about how she did it, and there was a lot of crime going on in New York at that time. There were a lot of you know, very serious gangsters, bootleggers, making a lot of money, and they weren't getting caught either. So it was you know, the system, the cops. Many of the cops, they weren't just corrupt, they were also incompetent. Some of them. A lot of times they weren't even interested in solving the case, especially if there was some connection back to the police department.

So the main part of the story takes place February twenty fifth, nineteen thirty one. Are we still in prohibition.

So the main part of the story takes place February twenty fifth, nineteen thirty one. Are we still in prohibition.

We're still a few years before the end of prohibition, so it's still prohibition.

We're still a few years before the end of prohibition, so it's still prohibition.

Lots of gangster activity happening there too, because we know she's loaned them money, right.

Lots of gangster activity happening there too, because we know she's loaned them money, right.

Yes, yes, Vivian. You know some of the famous gangsters Legs Diamond for example, you know she would hang out with. So it's still that period, although it's rapidly starting to unravel. You know, the depression has set in nobody's making as much money as they were. It's a bleak February morning on the twenty sixth when a pedestrian walking through a Van Cortland park in the Bronx notices a white glove hanging from a bush, and he investigates further and he discovers the body, Davian Gordon's body.

Yes, yes, Vivian. You know some of the famous gangsters Legs Diamond for example, you know she would hang out with. So it's still that period, although it's rapidly starting to unravel. You know, the depression has set in nobody's making as much money as they were. It's a bleak February morning on the twenty sixth when a pedestrian walking through a Van Cortland park in the Bronx notices a white glove hanging from a bush, and he investigates further and he discovers the body, Davian Gordon's body.

How quickly is she identified? And of course what's the state of her body? We can start there too.

How quickly is she identified? And of course what's the state of her body? We can start there too.

Yeah, she had only been murdered a few hours before. There was no identification on her, but she was. They saw that she was an attractive woman in stylish clothing, although she had no jewelry and no coat, which was odd considering how she was dressed and the weather outside. So at first, you know, they didn't know what to think. They were like, oh, maybe it's a maniac, as one of the detectives said. But they were quickly able to identify her from her fingerprints because of her original conviction, because of some subsequent arrests, and from those arrests they had they got an address. She lived in murray Hill, which was then is still a fashionable area of Manhattan. She lived in a nice apartment there in a new Elevator building, and when they went there the cops found. First of all, they found some black books, some of which were lists of men whom she'd targeted, some of whom were lists of young women, including physical descriptions and naked photographs. These were the women who worked for her as escorts, essentially. And they also found diary that described her life for the last three years before her.

Yeah, she had only been murdered a few hours before. There was no identification on her, but she was. They saw that she was an attractive woman in stylish clothing, although she had no jewelry and no coat, which was odd considering how she was dressed and the weather outside. So at first, you know, they didn't know what to think. They were like, oh, maybe it's a maniac, as one of the detectives said. But they were quickly able to identify her from her fingerprints because of her original conviction, because of some subsequent arrests, and from those arrests they had they got an address. She lived in murray Hill, which was then is still a fashionable area of Manhattan. She lived in a nice apartment there in a new Elevator building, and when they went there the cops found. First of all, they found some black books, some of which were lists of men whom she'd targeted, some of whom were lists of young women, including physical descriptions and naked photographs. These were the women who worked for her as escorts, essentially. And they also found diary that described her life for the last three years before her.

Murder, which I'm assuming is one of your sources in the book.

Murder, which I'm assuming is one of your sources in the book.

Yes, yes, so a lot of what happened to her came from these diaries. And the diaries were I mean, it was actually a date book, but she used them as diaries, and some of them were very business oriented about, you know, collecting debts that were owed to her. Others were ominous. That boyfriend I mentioned the Brooklyn lawyer name was John Radloff, and she multiple times in the diary said, if anything happens to me, John Radloff is to blame. He's the one enemy of mine, and she documented threats he made against her life. He had a henchman. His name was Sam Cohen. People called him Chowderhead Cohen. He was a thug and a thief, and Radloff said, you know, Chowderhead can take you out into the woods where nobody will ever find you, and take your ring and your ring coat. There were a lot of warnings pointing at John Rattloff in the diary. But then there were also, you know, so many other suspects. I mean, there was John Bischoff, Andrew McLaughlin, there were all the men that she had targeted. There were you know, some of the younger women whom she had crossed. So at one point, you know, the district attorney very frustrated and asked if they had any suspects. His answer was yes, everybody in New York.

Yes, yes, so a lot of what happened to her came from these diaries. And the diaries were I mean, it was actually a date book, but she used them as diaries, and some of them were very business oriented about, you know, collecting debts that were owed to her. Others were ominous. That boyfriend I mentioned the Brooklyn lawyer name was John Radloff, and she multiple times in the diary said, if anything happens to me, John Radloff is to blame. He's the one enemy of mine, and she documented threats he made against her life. He had a henchman. His name was Sam Cohen. People called him Chowderhead Cohen. He was a thug and a thief, and Radloff said, you know, Chowderhead can take you out into the woods where nobody will ever find you, and take your ring and your ring coat. There were a lot of warnings pointing at John Rattloff in the diary. But then there were also, you know, so many other suspects. I mean, there was John Bischoff, Andrew McLaughlin, there were all the men that she had targeted. There were you know, some of the younger women whom she had crossed. So at one point, you know, the district attorney very frustrated and asked if they had any suspects. His answer was yes, everybody in New York.

It makes it difficult when you have this phrase drives me crazy. But like the imperfect victim, you know, the person who in some ways is a perpetrator, right, she is turning other people into victims. I have a couple of questions sort of along those lines that'll just take us down a couple of tiny little pathways for a second. What is your read on her as a victim? As in, how do you frame Vivian Gordon as someone who people need to understand that this was a life, she deserved justice. She is murdered, but look at all the wrong she did, and it is difficult, I think for some audience members to not have a tiny little voice that says, well, she shouldn't have done all that stuff, you know, So how do you reconcile that? Because I always struggle in my books about stuff like that.

It makes it difficult when you have this phrase drives me crazy. But like the imperfect victim, you know, the person who in some ways is a perpetrator, right, she is turning other people into victims. I have a couple of questions sort of along those lines that'll just take us down a couple of tiny little pathways for a second. What is your read on her as a victim? As in, how do you frame Vivian Gordon as someone who people need to understand that this was a life, she deserved justice. She is murdered, but look at all the wrong she did, and it is difficult, I think for some audience members to not have a tiny little voice that says, well, she shouldn't have done all that stuff, you know, So how do you reconcile that? Because I always struggle in my books about stuff like that.

Vivin Gordon was certainly an imperfect person, as you put it, and she was aware of it. She wrote. She wrote poetry kind of talking about, you know, what she'd done, and predicting that she would come to a bad end. She told her friends, you know, someday, somebody's gonna slit my throat. So she was aware of it. All I can do as an author is can provide whatever evidence I have and bring, you know, my own perspective to her story. And to me, what drives my sympathy for her was the wrong that she'd experienced, the difficult life that she'd had that had sent her down this path.

Vivin Gordon was certainly an imperfect person, as you put it, and she was aware of it. She wrote. She wrote poetry kind of talking about, you know, what she'd done, and predicting that she would come to a bad end. She told her friends, you know, someday, somebody's gonna slit my throat. So she was aware of it. All I can do as an author is can provide whatever evidence I have and bring, you know, my own perspective to her story. And to me, what drives my sympathy for her was the wrong that she'd experienced, the difficult life that she'd had that had sent her down this path.

Lots of struggles that she had to overcome. And also, you know, something that is good for us to point out is that women had so little agency in the nineteen twenties and three. I mean, they just had no power. This was one area where she could have power, right, I mean besides sex, just like being able to get away with things, having that sort of business savvy that she had, even if it was illegal, there were just so few options. What would have happened with her if just a few other decisions have been made differently?

Lots of struggles that she had to overcome. And also, you know, something that is good for us to point out is that women had so little agency in the nineteen twenties and three. I mean, they just had no power. This was one area where she could have power, right, I mean besides sex, just like being able to get away with things, having that sort of business savvy that she had, even if it was illegal, there were just so few options. What would have happened with her if just a few other decisions have been made differently?

Yeah, absolutely, I mean in a way, you know, she turned the tables, you know, from you know, here were these rich, privileged, you know, white men who were you know, saw women as you know, somebody that they could you know, in one of her paramours would walk around. He had a money belts that he would you know, fill with one hundred dollar bills. He'd go out in the evening and he would hand one hundred dollars bills to you know, young women who caught his fancy. And so you know, these these victims were not admirable themselves, and they were you know, they were accustomed to getting away with everything. She exploited them as they were attempting to exploit her. So there is power in that. You know, you could also look at what happened in terms of those vice cops. In a way, she did achieve a kind of posthumous revenge against them. Her case was so sensational that it led FDR to increase the authority of the investigators in the scope of the investigation. And many of these cops, some were convicted, most were fired, dismissed from the force. They lost their cash cow, they lost their money and the power that they that they'd had. So, you know, she did achieve this in a way, not in the way that, of course she had hoped.

Yeah, absolutely, I mean in a way, you know, she turned the tables, you know, from you know, here were these rich, privileged, you know, white men who were you know, saw women as you know, somebody that they could you know, in one of her paramours would walk around. He had a money belts that he would you know, fill with one hundred dollar bills. He'd go out in the evening and he would hand one hundred dollars bills to you know, young women who caught his fancy. And so you know, these these victims were not admirable themselves, and they were you know, they were accustomed to getting away with everything. She exploited them as they were attempting to exploit her. So there is power in that. You know, you could also look at what happened in terms of those vice cops. In a way, she did achieve a kind of posthumous revenge against them. Her case was so sensational that it led FDR to increase the authority of the investigators in the scope of the investigation. And many of these cops, some were convicted, most were fired, dismissed from the force. They lost their cash cow, they lost their money and the power that they that they'd had. So, you know, she did achieve this in a way, not in the way that, of course she had hoped.

Yeah, of course. Okay, So we have a host of suspects, and before we get into who might have done this, which just seems like the media or the police had said, you know, it was the entire city and then some of Philadelphia, obviously, let's talk about the body. So she has found and you said she had no jacket, she didn't have her ear rings in and you know, no identification. What was the cause of death if it had been just a few hours before.

Yeah, of course. Okay, So we have a host of suspects, and before we get into who might have done this, which just seems like the media or the police had said, you know, it was the entire city and then some of Philadelphia, obviously, let's talk about the body. So she has found and you said she had no jacket, she didn't have her ear rings in and you know, no identification. What was the cause of death if it had been just a few hours before.

She'd been strangled. There was a dirty it looked like a rope, It looked like a clothesline wrapped around her neck, nodded tightly. She was bruised, but the police suspected that that was mainly because she'd been dragged. Her body had been dragged through the woods after her murder. The police suspected that she'd been not murdered there. There was no sign of struggle in the bushes, so they believe she was murdered somewhere else, possibly in an automobile. And then you know, her body left there in the woods.

She'd been strangled. There was a dirty it looked like a rope, It looked like a clothesline wrapped around her neck, nodded tightly. She was bruised, but the police suspected that that was mainly because she'd been dragged. Her body had been dragged through the woods after her murder. The police suspected that she'd been not murdered there. There was no sign of struggle in the bushes, so they believe she was murdered somewhere else, possibly in an automobile. And then you know, her body left there in the woods.

Now, so the police did this signal gangsters just blatantly laying out somebody where a pedestrian is probably going to find them at some point.

Now, so the police did this signal gangsters just blatantly laying out somebody where a pedestrian is probably going to find them at some point.

You know, certainly, given her criminal connections, gangsters were suspected. I would say much of the public assumed it wasn't gangsters, assumed it was the cops that had silenced her to keep her from speaking to investigators, and it was. You know, people believe that she had all sorts of secrets that she might might have spilled to the investigators if she'd been allowed to talk.

You know, certainly, given her criminal connections, gangsters were suspected. I would say much of the public assumed it wasn't gangsters, assumed it was the cops that had silenced her to keep her from speaking to investigators, and it was. You know, people believe that she had all sorts of secrets that she might might have spilled to the investigators if she'd been allowed to talk.

Now, is the corrupt cop who set her up to begin with, Andrew McLachlin. Is he still on the force when she dies?

Now, is the corrupt cop who set her up to begin with, Andrew McLachlin. Is he still on the force when she dies?

Yes, but he is in Bermuda at the time of her death.

Yes, but he is in Bermuda at the time of her death.

Oh okay.

Oh okay.

You know, this is a practice that I was surprised to find out still goes on, where cruise ships will offer free passage to handsome men who entertain the single ladies on the cruise.

You know, this is a practice that I was surprised to find out still goes on, where cruise ships will offer free passage to handsome men who entertain the single ladies on the cruise.

What I've not heard that. What ships are these some.

What I've not heard that. What ships are these some.

Of the big ones, they're called like gentlemen hosts. I think google it, you'll see.

Of the big ones, they're called like gentlemen hosts. I think google it, you'll see.

So Andrew mclachlin's doing that. Is he some handsome guy? And he was.

So Andrew mclachlin's doing that. Is he some handsome guy? And he was.

He was very handsome. They called him the Sheikh of the Vice Squad.

He was very handsome. They called him the Sheikh of the Vice Squad.

Okay, so is this an alibi, like a for real alibi. He could have hired somebody to do it. But has he crossed off the list or do they still have an eye on him?

Okay, so is this an alibi, like a for real alibi. He could have hired somebody to do it. But has he crossed off the list or do they still have an eye on him?

No, so he is crossed off the list, at least t himself. You know, one of the women I write about, actually I was a journalist and Grace Robinson, who was the top crime reporter for the Daily News, and she was all over this case. She just was was everywhere. You know. I started when I was writing about her, I just quoted her article, you know, quoted her reporting. And then you know, as I found her in more and more places and learn more about her, it's like she has to come into the story. And so she has a role in the story. And she you know, one of her scoops was she boarded the Andrew mcgloughfin's boat when it stopped for quarantine out in the harbor, she boarded it, got an exclusive interview with him on the way back into New York and then he you know, was cuffed and taken to you know, taking in for questioning when he got off ship. So he was definitely in Bermuda. They did not find evidence against him or Vivian Gordon's ex husband, John Bischoff. Many people were suspicious, but there was not. The police didn't feel like they had anything to go on with those two.

No, so he is crossed off the list, at least t himself. You know, one of the women I write about, actually I was a journalist and Grace Robinson, who was the top crime reporter for the Daily News, and she was all over this case. She just was was everywhere. You know. I started when I was writing about her, I just quoted her article, you know, quoted her reporting. And then you know, as I found her in more and more places and learn more about her, it's like she has to come into the story. And so she has a role in the story. And she you know, one of her scoops was she boarded the Andrew mcgloughfin's boat when it stopped for quarantine out in the harbor, she boarded it, got an exclusive interview with him on the way back into New York and then he you know, was cuffed and taken to you know, taking in for questioning when he got off ship. So he was definitely in Bermuda. They did not find evidence against him or Vivian Gordon's ex husband, John Bischoff. Many people were suspicious, but there was not. The police didn't feel like they had anything to go on with those two.

So who do they return to? Are we looking back at the He was an attorney, right, the boyfriend or ex boyfriend of Vivian whom she said, if I end up dead, you need to talk to John about this.

So who do they return to? Are we looking back at the He was an attorney, right, the boyfriend or ex boyfriend of Vivian whom she said, if I end up dead, you need to talk to John about this.

Yes, John Radloff. So the first people they arrested, the people they believed did it, the lead detective believe did it were John Radloff and the henchman I'd mentioned, Chatterhead Cohen. They did not, however, have any solid evidence. All they had were the diaries, which weren't even admissible in court. So they booked them as material witnesses and were able to hold them as material witnesses as unwilling witnesses for weeks as they tried to find evidence. They couldn't find anything. They had nothing to go on. Both of those men had alibis, not nearly as solid as Andrew McLaughlin's, but they had alibis, so eventually they released them for lack of evidence. They were determined. They were desperate to solve this case because it was such an embarrassment to the police and they had you know, the governor FDR breathing down their next telling them you have to solve this case. He was worried he was going to interfere because he was already planning to run for president. He was worried that this was going to you know, slow him down or interfere with his campaign. So he was really pushing them hard to solve the case. They assigned like two hundred officers to the case. They hired the Pinkerton Detective private detective agents to interview people. You know, it was a huge case. It was all you know. It was in the headlines for months, not only in New York, there were it was the headlines all over the country. I found articles about it in Sydney, Australia, Singapore. It was such a big deal and so they really wanted to solve it, but they for a long time had nothing to go on.

Yes, John Radloff. So the first people they arrested, the people they believed did it, the lead detective believe did it were John Radloff and the henchman I'd mentioned, Chatterhead Cohen. They did not, however, have any solid evidence. All they had were the diaries, which weren't even admissible in court. So they booked them as material witnesses and were able to hold them as material witnesses as unwilling witnesses for weeks as they tried to find evidence. They couldn't find anything. They had nothing to go on. Both of those men had alibis, not nearly as solid as Andrew McLaughlin's, but they had alibis, so eventually they released them for lack of evidence. They were determined. They were desperate to solve this case because it was such an embarrassment to the police and they had you know, the governor FDR breathing down their next telling them you have to solve this case. He was worried he was going to interfere because he was already planning to run for president. He was worried that this was going to you know, slow him down or interfere with his campaign. So he was really pushing them hard to solve the case. They assigned like two hundred officers to the case. They hired the Pinkerton Detective private detective agents to interview people. You know, it was a huge case. It was all you know. It was in the headlines for months, not only in New York, there were it was the headlines all over the country. I found articles about it in Sydney, Australia, Singapore. It was such a big deal and so they really wanted to solve it, but they for a long time had nothing to go on.

What do you think were the check marks on a huge media story that this checked off? Because we're talking about ultimately a sex worker and someone who was extorting men and I know attractive. Is that what it took was being wrapped up in you know, this conspiracy. Normally I would think, well, maybe this wouldn't have been that big of a media story just because it didn't involve some prem you know, housewife who had this secret life. It seems like there had to have been something much deeper. It triggered people in the media.

What do you think were the check marks on a huge media story that this checked off? Because we're talking about ultimately a sex worker and someone who was extorting men and I know attractive. Is that what it took was being wrapped up in you know, this conspiracy. Normally I would think, well, maybe this wouldn't have been that big of a media story just because it didn't involve some prem you know, housewife who had this secret life. It seems like there had to have been something much deeper. It triggered people in the media.

Well, I mean there were two things. First of all, if she wasn't this obscure sex worker they had, you know, she was dealing with some of the most prominent men in New York City, you know, some of the richest you know, former state Secretary of State, a judge, you know, there were these were people of prominence that she would interacting with who then became suspects. So there was that, But what really made it a huge story was her meeting with the anti corruption investigators. That investigation was threatening, you know, not just a few cops in the forest, that was threatening the entire political structure of New York City. It was you know, the city was run by this political machine, Tammany Hall, this notorious political machine that had ruled New York for over a century. You know, we've been talking all about the murder, but in fact, there are two narratives in my book, and the Vivian Gordon and her murders one of them. The other narrative thread is all about this investigation that intersected and was affected by her murder, and that investigation had tremendous historic importance for New York City and even the country.

Well, I mean there were two things. First of all, if she wasn't this obscure sex worker they had, you know, she was dealing with some of the most prominent men in New York City, you know, some of the richest you know, former state Secretary of State, a judge, you know, there were these were people of prominence that she would interacting with who then became suspects. So there was that, But what really made it a huge story was her meeting with the anti corruption investigators. That investigation was threatening, you know, not just a few cops in the forest, that was threatening the entire political structure of New York City. It was you know, the city was run by this political machine, Tammany Hall, this notorious political machine that had ruled New York for over a century. You know, we've been talking all about the murder, but in fact, there are two narratives in my book, and the Vivian Gordon and her murders one of them. The other narrative thread is all about this investigation that intersected and was affected by her murder, and that investigation had tremendous historic importance for New York City and even the country.

Well, let's talk about that. I'm interested in Samuel Seabury and where he comes in, and I know he's been involved already. He's the head of this investigation at this point, right.

Well, let's talk about that. I'm interested in Samuel Seabury and where he comes in, and I know he's been involved already. He's the head of this investigation at this point, right.

Yes, exactly. So you know, FDR actually didn't want such a big investigation. He had an alliance with this political machine, with Tammany Hall. He needed their support, you know, they had supported him to become governor. He felt that he needed their support to win the Democratic presidential nomination and to win New York State in the general election. So he did not want to antagonize the bosses. But on the other hand, he didn't want to look weak. He didn't want to look like, oh he was, you know, turning to her cheek. You know, as all this, all this horrible corruption was happening in his home state. So he kind of started with this smaller investigation, but picked Samuel Seabury, who was, you know, a man of immaculate reputation. He was blue blooded, he came his great great grandfather was was also Samuel Seaberry, was the America's first episcopalian bishop. You know, Hamilton fans will recognize the name because he tangled with with Alexander Hamilton before the Revolution. He was a loyalist. You know. The book was called The Bishop and the Butterfly, but Fly refers to Vivian Gordon. She was called Broadway Butterfly. The Bishop was a nickname that people used for Samuel Seabury, partly because of his his ancestor, partly because of his his manner. He was just so moralistic, and he was also very tenacious, and so he really took this investigation a lot further than FDR had ever intended.

Yes, exactly. So you know, FDR actually didn't want such a big investigation. He had an alliance with this political machine, with Tammany Hall. He needed their support, you know, they had supported him to become governor. He felt that he needed their support to win the Democratic presidential nomination and to win New York State in the general election. So he did not want to antagonize the bosses. But on the other hand, he didn't want to look weak. He didn't want to look like, oh he was, you know, turning to her cheek. You know, as all this, all this horrible corruption was happening in his home state. So he kind of started with this smaller investigation, but picked Samuel Seabury, who was, you know, a man of immaculate reputation. He was blue blooded, he came his great great grandfather was was also Samuel Seaberry, was the America's first episcopalian bishop. You know, Hamilton fans will recognize the name because he tangled with with Alexander Hamilton before the Revolution. He was a loyalist. You know. The book was called The Bishop and the Butterfly, but Fly refers to Vivian Gordon. She was called Broadway Butterfly. The Bishop was a nickname that people used for Samuel Seabury, partly because of his his ancestor, partly because of his his manner. He was just so moralistic, and he was also very tenacious, and so he really took this investigation a lot further than FDR had ever intended.

So what's the next step they're trying to call the list of suspects they've crossed off the ex husband. They've crossed off the sleasy cop, flash mail entertainer, whatever that is in Bermuda. And we could not get enough on the ex boyfriend who was violent and his henchman named Chowder inexplicably. So what is the next step here?

So what's the next step they're trying to call the list of suspects they've crossed off the ex husband. They've crossed off the sleasy cop, flash mail entertainer, whatever that is in Bermuda. And we could not get enough on the ex boyfriend who was violent and his henchman named Chowder inexplicably. So what is the next step here?

You know Seabury at this point he digs into a little bit, but then he's more focused on the bigger picture on Tammany Hall, okay, and you know, the major graft in the city. The cops now go back to Vivian Gordon's diaries and they see a reference to someone named Henry Saunders who she has loaned money to for a bank job in Oslo, and they don't know who he is. They're like interviewing all the Henry Saunders or related names they can find, and they can't. They can't figure out who he is. But she mentions the date of his travel, and on a hunch, one of the detectives looks through the ship records and finds three men, not Henry Saunders, but Samuel Cohen, who is the chatterhead Cohen. And you know, the man is not actually chatterhead Cohen, but there is a connection there, and he had used sam He had used the name and the passport of Sam of Cohen to travel to Oslo. And then they also were able to identify Henry Sanders from his signature. They matched it to a convict from sing sing named Harry Stein, So you know, they kind of looked into what these guys were doing. They went to another friend from Sing Singh who was Norwegian, had invited them out to do an inside job in Oslo and they'd borrowed money from Viving Gordon to do it. You know, they rented a cottage outside Oslo and told the neighbors that they were filming a movie and that they were all these you know, one was a Hollywood mogul, one was a railroad air and had some machine with wires coming out of it that they'd show to the locals. The deal fell through for unfair reasons. They did not rub the bank and so they owed Viving Gordon money and in her diary she reports, you know that she's you know, after they return, she's hounding them to try to get her money back. And this Harry Stein's a bad character. He has a long record of not murder, but some very serious assaults and he's done a lot of time and So at this point they suspected him, but they still don't have the evidence to nail him.

You know Seabury at this point he digs into a little bit, but then he's more focused on the bigger picture on Tammany Hall, okay, and you know, the major graft in the city. The cops now go back to Vivian Gordon's diaries and they see a reference to someone named Henry Saunders who she has loaned money to for a bank job in Oslo, and they don't know who he is. They're like interviewing all the Henry Saunders or related names they can find, and they can't. They can't figure out who he is. But she mentions the date of his travel, and on a hunch, one of the detectives looks through the ship records and finds three men, not Henry Saunders, but Samuel Cohen, who is the chatterhead Cohen. And you know, the man is not actually chatterhead Cohen, but there is a connection there, and he had used sam He had used the name and the passport of Sam of Cohen to travel to Oslo. And then they also were able to identify Henry Sanders from his signature. They matched it to a convict from sing sing named Harry Stein, So you know, they kind of looked into what these guys were doing. They went to another friend from Sing Singh who was Norwegian, had invited them out to do an inside job in Oslo and they'd borrowed money from Viving Gordon to do it. You know, they rented a cottage outside Oslo and told the neighbors that they were filming a movie and that they were all these you know, one was a Hollywood mogul, one was a railroad air and had some machine with wires coming out of it that they'd show to the locals. The deal fell through for unfair reasons. They did not rub the bank and so they owed Viving Gordon money and in her diary she reports, you know that she's you know, after they return, she's hounding them to try to get her money back. And this Harry Stein's a bad character. He has a long record of not murder, but some very serious assaults and he's done a lot of time and So at this point they suspected him, but they still don't have the evidence to nail him.

So what's the next step. Because now you've got see Berry, who is sort of balancing two different investigations. They've figured out harry Stein is a potential suspect because she has by the way, I had no idea that you could invest in a bank robbery. But she has loaned money and I'm assuming was going to get probably a pretty good amount of interest back on it, and she is demanding, according to her diary, that she wants this money back and is pressuring harry Stein and whoever his other accomplices are.

So what's the next step. Because now you've got see Berry, who is sort of balancing two different investigations. They've figured out harry Stein is a potential suspect because she has by the way, I had no idea that you could invest in a bank robbery. But she has loaned money and I'm assuming was going to get probably a pretty good amount of interest back on it, and she is demanding, according to her diary, that she wants this money back and is pressuring harry Stein and whoever his other accomplices are.

So they get from an unrelated source they can lead at this point, and it's the police commissioner of New York City. His name was Edward mulrooney. He received a tip from somebody he never named who it was, said it was, you know, he said it was somebody who had credible information, and the tip sent him off to Revere, which is a suburb of Boston. He basically said, you know, he gave his deputy responsibility for running the police and said I'm going to solve this myself. Goes off to Boston and comes back with evidence of a certain fence named David Butterman has possession of even Gordon's min coat or has had possession of Vivian Gordon's mean cooat and diamond ring and diamond watch and was trying to sell them. The cops raid his home and he and his wife, you know, they break down. They say it was Harry Stein. Harry Stein gave us the coat to try to sell, gave us the ring and the watch to try to sell them. They didn't have more about that, They didn't know the details, but they were able to provide more evidence against Harry Stein.

So they get from an unrelated source they can lead at this point, and it's the police commissioner of New York City. His name was Edward mulrooney. He received a tip from somebody he never named who it was, said it was, you know, he said it was somebody who had credible information, and the tip sent him off to Revere, which is a suburb of Boston. He basically said, you know, he gave his deputy responsibility for running the police and said I'm going to solve this myself. Goes off to Boston and comes back with evidence of a certain fence named David Butterman has possession of even Gordon's min coat or has had possession of Vivian Gordon's mean cooat and diamond ring and diamond watch and was trying to sell them. The cops raid his home and he and his wife, you know, they break down. They say it was Harry Stein. Harry Stein gave us the coat to try to sell, gave us the ring and the watch to try to sell them. They didn't have more about that, They didn't know the details, but they were able to provide more evidence against Harry Stein.

So what's the next step. It's them versus Harry Stein. And I'm assuming Harry Stein saying I didn't do anything.

So what's the next step. It's them versus Harry Stein. And I'm assuming Harry Stein saying I didn't do anything.

Oh, they didn't even arrest him. They didn't, you know, they kept it quiet. They knew they didn't have enough evidence to proscute, so they followed him. They tapped his phone, you know, they trapped him. They've discovered one of his cronies, who is Samuel Greenberg, who was one of the ones who had gone with him to Oslo. And they found a third guy using an alias Harry but it was a different Harry and found him talking to Greenberg. His name was Harry Schlitten, and they arrested him and eventually broke him to get the full story. So they arrest this guy, the young guy, Harry Schlitten, and you know, after you know, a night or two of interrogation, he breaks. He says he was hired by Harry Stein to drive the murder car, and he gives the whole story about how he rented the car and picked up Harry and this the same with Greenberg. Greene, they called him. They drove up, found a spot and remote spot in the Bronx, and then drove back down, dropped off Harry Stein near Vivangordn's apartment. Then they drove up back to the meeting spot. Harry Stein goes to Viving Gordon's apartment, tells her a story. He says, there's this guy Greenie who has these uncut diamonds that he's trying to unload. I want to take them from him and you can, you know, get part of that loot. So the plan is that he tells Vivin Gordon she's going to talk up this Greenberg and while he's not paying attention, Stein will jump him and take the diamonds, so it was pretty far fit story. It was supposed to be like a quarter a million, which was more money than Harry Stein certainly had ever had any access to. But Viving Gordon was desperate for money at this point. You know, she'd written in her diaries she'd written stony meaning Stony broke. So she went with him. They went up to the spot, This is according to Schlytton's confession, and you know she got into the car and started flirting with Greenberg, and then Stein grabbed a rope and pulled it around her neck.