Raising a kid would be so much easier with an instruction manual, but let’s face it, that’s just not the case! Zoe welcomes child psychologist, Dr. Aliza Pressman, to discuss parental guilt and handling consequences for certain behavior.
You are listening to What in the Winkler and iHeartRadio podcast. Welcome back to another episode of What in the Winkler. I am so excited because today we have a really special guest and she's not a family member, so this is like a real legit guest. Doctor Eliza Pressman is a developmental psychologist with nearly two decades of experience working with families and the healthcare providers who care for them. She's the author of the New York Times best selling book The Five Principles of Parenting, Your Essential Guide to Raising Good Humans, and the host of the award winning podcast Raising Good Humans. And most importantly, she is a really, really, really dear friend of mine. And I'm so excited You're hair welcome. Thank you. I'm so happy you're here. Thank you for doing this. You're like my first official guest. Actually, no, that's not true. I had Kim and you, I mean.
Kim Kardashian. That's fine, but your numbers are going to go crazy.
So Alisa and I actually met before I even had kids. Alisa used to run an incredible parenting group in New York called the Seedlings Group, and I wanted to work for her until she told me that I had to have my masters to do so, and then I decided, no, we'll just be friends. I did not want to go back to school, and so we met in New York. I mean fourteen years ago. Can you believe it?
No, I think it was fifteen years ago.
It was fifteen years ago. I didn't even have kids yet, so you're right, fifteen years ago. And she's obviously gone on to write this incredible bestselling New York Times bestseller book, which I hosted one of the LA launch.
Parties, the first launch I sure did.
And you're here today.
To yeah, why am I here?
Okay, So you're here today because I think parenting is the most incredible opportunity that we get to do, and it's also the hardest thing I've ever done in my entire life, even if you just want to do it like kind of okay, it's really hard. And you've helped me throughout the years with my kids, and I thought we could just talk a little bit about parenting and your expertise in all subjects and answer all my questions and have my own personal therapy session.
I'm so excited. Also, just I want to say that I know that it's off putting and annoying to be like an expert in this when we are the experts for our kids and for ourselves. So I'm technically an expert in that I have a degree in this area and I work in this area, but I don't want to I think one of the things that we have to know as an expert is that we don't know nearly as much as we think we do. And I don't want to say that and then make you feel like what I what I would share with you is something you shouldn't trust so much as just know that it's just going to be different. And we've had this experience where I'll say something and you're like, no.
Yes, that is true. I come from a very emotional background and you come from a very clinical background.
Yeah.
I think that's probably so often times you'll I remember when my Ace was obsessed with his pacifier and you were very you know, clear on me taking it away, and I think I just said like, no, thanks, no thanks.
By the way, I believe in passifiers for the first year. I mean I think he was.
Going on for Yeah, I think it was time for the passifiers to go away. But I think one of the most incredible things about you is that you never make anybody that's speaking to you feel a embarrassed or bad about the choices that they may have made. And you also make it feel very approachable, so you really take into account who it is that you're speaking to, and then you go off of that. You know, like, there's so many books where it's like do it this way, yeah, and it's not going to work if it's not in line with who you are as a human or a parent.
Right, yes, I mean, if I want to know who you are, I don't want to tell you who to be.
Right which is I mean, I think that's the difference between you and other parenting. That's why I was so anxious to have you on because I think a lot of times we don't ask the questions because we feel like, oh, we should know the answers. Yeah, or I'm going to feel stupid if I ask this question, and I'm going to feel like a bad parent, because so much of the time amazing parents there's no perfect parent, but parents feel I don't know. Today, for instance, I missed pajama Day at school, and I felt like.
I'm only laughing because I've definitely done.
That, right, But it was for Gus, who would love, definitely love the pajama day care the most. And I felt like I was so embarrassed, and I was in school, like watching all the kids come in their pajamas, and I just thought to myself, holy shit, my morning is about to suck, right. And he was actually fine with it, ah, which is shocking because I think I dropped him off. I didn't like walk him in, So I think it because I wasn't there, he was okay.
He couldn't give you a reaction. Well, that's really adaptable. That's kind of a wins.
It's it's it's really like kind of a big move forward for him because we get stuck a lot of the times. What initially drew you to focus on parenting and child development? What do you think?
Before I answer that question, may I also just say, ye that the fact that you made that mistake, I think gave him permission to make mistakes. So I think it was a win all around, except for the embarrassment of like being lightly disorganized in a moment, right, which.
We all I mean.
And also, why are they doing pajama day this month?
Oh? Because at this school every single Wednesday is a theme for first grade. So that's really hard to keep up with all the themes and I'm barely making it through the week. So I just I was also I give tours at the school, at the elementary school, and I found out about the pajama Day as the tour was beginning, so I was like, oh, okay, this is great, this is yeah.
Okay, sorry to interrupt, but I just felt like that we do need to do that more often. And it's easier for me to say to you than to believe myself. But I think those are moments where we're giving our kids permission to make mistakes, and you want.
Them to know that if they make a mistake, the sky doesn't fall.
The sky doesn't fall.
Right, So tell me about why you went into parenting and child development.
I mean, I think probably nobody into any field related to psychology that doesn't have some curiosity about like how in the world they came to be who they are and the people around them came to be who they are. I think I had a colorful family, and like, on the deepest level, my grandfather's a Holocaust driver, so it was my grandmother. She's just no longer alive, but that was such a huge part of my childhood, was hearing about the Holocaust at every conversation with our family, and I was mesmerized at how you could come out of that kind of trauma and raise three kids and then grandkids and now great grandkids, and how that impacts their growth and development. And so I think from just observationally, I thought it was fascinating. And then I think probably just being the you know, like a kid, a child of divorce and things happening in life, I just was like, how does this work?
And how did you end up being a co founder and director of the Mount Seini Parenting Center, And can you tell us a little bit about like what that is?
So I was I guess I started. I was interested in this field before I had kids, and I just knew that I wanted to work for kids. I don't know if I wanted to work with kids once I had kids, but I knew that I wanted to work for serving kids and families. And then I was working with more affluent families in my private practice, and I was teaching at the hospital. I was teaching residents their behavior and development rotation it's called and somehow like I had the opportunity from that more affluent families that I worked with, they wanted to figure out, like how could they give back and could it help the families in that the hospital serves. And now we work across the country, but to have access to parenting and child development and all the things that can support mothers and parents in general. So we decided to open a parenting center there. And then because I was teaching residents, I also learned that pediatricians don't really have much training in most of the things that we asked them about, because when you go to the pediatrician's office, they're pretty routine and like they know how to give vaccines and deal with us, you know, an illness, but most of the questions they get asked about are parenting questions, especially in those first five years. And so what I was working very closely with a pediatrician who I co founded the parenting center with, and she was like, this is information that pediatricians want and need because they're oftentimes either winging it going by their own experience or asking their mentor, And wouldn't it be nice if there was a more streamlined approach to understanding behavior and development and creating a curriculum. So that was the first thing we did, was to create a curriculum for residents that would integrate parenting into their already existing visits. And so everything that we do is related to making sure that if you are going into a hospital or clinic setting, which is where ninety nine percent of babies are born, I think maybe it's ninety seven, that there's support for you as the provider.
It's so interesting because when I was a teacher for ten years, and then I was a therapeutic companion, a one to one shadow for four years, so I had a lot of experience with kids and young kids too. But when I became a parent, everybody prepares you for the pregnancy and for the birth, but nobody talks about when you go home and you're alone with that baby. And even if you have all the experience in the world, it's you forget everything and it goes out the window because now it's your, your baby, and so all the emotion and all of the you're it's so it's all intertwined. Whereas when you're giving advice about someone else's child, the emotional like poll isn't there as much. So I think that that's so amazing that families across the country have that opportunity because everyone prepares you for the birth. But that to me was I mean, it wasn't easy, but I definitely got an epidural, but that quick. It's quick, and it's like most of the times you're surrounded by doctors, so it's like, you know, but then you go home and you're alone.
I know, there's no you. You really just have like two of it. That was the other thing as we noticed, like, Okay, at the hospital, you have to watch a video on putting your kid in a car seat and shaking baby syndrome, and that's it. And we were like, what about videos that can help you actually get through these next few months for sleeping and feeding and connecting and touch and all of the things that could be so helpful, including things that can minimize chances of postpartum depression. And it all happens in these settings, but there aren't a lot of resources for it. So that was really fun. And also there's so much There are so many hospitals and there are so many places across the country that don't have like in where we started was New York City and we're in LA Obviously those are places that have a lot of resources and a lot of practitioners, but most places in the country there's such a shortage. So anything that you can do, I mean, we even made well Child Visit videos to help families and also the care providers, like what are the questions it might come up? What are some things that you can find out about that will save you the time and the visit, because for the majority of the country, it's not like you can just grab a psychologist on the way.
And then also it's you know, it's funny because for me, my my biggest challenge after having three kids was zero to one. I was so anxious. The jump from one to two was so much easier for me, not physically, I mean, there's a lot more to do, and you're you know, you survived. I survived the first one and the anxiety I had with zero to one. I didn't have postpartum depression, but I did have postpartum anxiety, which you know, and it was so difficult.
For me to.
Just let him sort of be and I was always worried about something happening to him or to me or to you know, and it consumed me. So then when I knew he's going to eat, he going to sleep, or he's never going to sleep, which is kind of what happened, you know, at once I could accept that and I knew sort of I had like a little bit of a roadmap as to what it was going to look like with two and three, even though they're all different and they're different people, it was so much easier. It gave me comfort.
Yeah, I mean, I think there everybody has like their different time in parenthood that's most challenging, and I feel like if you haven't had it, it's just that it hasn't come yet. It's kind of like when people talk about like, oh, two terrible twos or whatever, and you think, no, my two year old was not remotely pushing the limits or anything. But then really that's because it'll happen at three. It's not we're not skipping any of these.
Steps, right, They all come when they come. What do you think, after like working with all these families, what have you noticed are the modern parenting challenges? Because I think to myself all the time my parents, I'm sure I thought it was really difficult raising us in our generation, But then I think with social media and and just as like all these things that are now at our kids' fingertips, it seems like it's way more complicated now to raise kids, even though I'm sure that our kids will feel.
That it was so much easier right back.
And so, what do you think are like the major modern parenting challenges for right now?
I mean, I think this parenting stress, which the Surge in general just wrote and advisory on, is a big challenge because we're expected to do more and we don't have more resources to do it. I think that's huge. And I have a sneaking suspicion in the service of wanting to be more emotionally available to our kids, we are really afraid of their feelings and so we do we like bend over backwards to try to make sure that we fix any feelings that are really hard. And that is just.
We've talked about that exhaust to what I do well.
I mean, but it's very natural, because you'd be such a beast if you didn't have you know, like, if you're just like I don't care if you're miserable. It's hard. It's your child. It's so hard. Although I have a harder time I think with other people's kids seeing them struggling than I do with my own kids, because at least I'm like, I know ultimately they're loved and they're safe, and this is a moment whereas somebody else's child, I feel a little bit. You know, It's like when you're taking care of somebody else's kid, you just get a little bit more worried. But I think that is a massive challenge, and it's because we feel parenting. Yeah, like we got so we felt so rightfully, like we didn't get enough maybe attention to feelings, and we just accidentally went too far probably and the burden is now on the parents today, right.
I Actually last night at dinner, one of my kids was telling we do rose bud and thorn every night, and we also do a seed like what we're excited to learn. But his thorn was that his best friend said to him, you talk too fast, and I don't want to play with you anymore. And I could feel.
I can feel you.
I was, I was unwell, and Rob was looking at me across the table like scared the whole gust coming out. Yeah, And you know, I when my kid tells me that something has happened to them. I think I told I told this Stir on your podcast. Actually, so, when Ace was in preschool, there was a kid who was not letting him play basketball and said that he couldn't play because he didn't have the right shoes, I remember, And so I went up to him and I said, do you know what happens when you're unkind? And he said, yeah, someone tells the teacher. And I said, oh my gosh, no, it's like way worse than that. Nobody will have you over for play dates because you're not kind. And then I looked at Ace and I said, an Ace, Blake Griffin is coming for dinner tonight. Mima. I don't know Blake Griffin. He's a clipper. He was a clipper at the time.
I mean, I only know because I know the story of other world.
So I don't know him. I don't he's never been to my home. But I just like, I completely had an out of body experience. I got into my car. I called Rob and I just said, I just I just got into it with a five year old, like what is going to happen to me? And then I really it laid that, like you know, I learned from that, I really did. As something comes.
Over, you just get so protected.
It's mentally ill and I'm in therapy. So what's wrong with me? And what do I do? Can you help?
Oh? My god? I think I think that is a medication question. I think this has nothing to do with your parenting. You would do that probably in any situation. I would be a friend, and that is part of your charm. It's just that it's probably better with als or with.
No one at all. I need a puzzle when I'm out.
I think it's more like, don't try to take on everything. But I would say for the underage set, it's just it's not serving you or them or your kids. But it is very funny.
So what it makes for great it's got our story on a podcast.
And also your son just kind of like it's okay, mom. You know that he's like, they're gonna grow up and they're just gonna be like, please, don't piss off my mom. I assure you, it's not a good idea.
What so what in those moments when a child shares because you want them to share things with you and you don't want them to get to the point where he's like I don't even want to tell you anything because you're gonna freak out.
I think that's the most important point.
So what's the best response when that happens, when a kid says, hey, you know this person was mean to me today, or just share something I know? The number one thing is you don't interview for pain, right, Yeah, you don't.
So well, that's like that. That is so like don't start your you know, pick up with how did it go today? With so and so? Okay, But the other thing is, and it seems trite, and it is so life changing, is it? Whenever? Just promise yourself. This is all you have to do is promise yourself that when you hear a story, you will take a breath during and after that story before you react, just because it tells your body that you are not in danger. You do not need to go into fight mode. And that way you can hear the story, receive a story, and make it about how your kid feels instead of how you feel.
Right, So that's what I was doing. Was actually incredibly selfish.
No, it's not that it's selfish, it's just that it's natural. We all feel. Please, if you don't think that there have been times when I'm like, my entire goal this year is to make sure. I mean, I won't even say it, but I think it's very natural.
So what is the response when I can kid, When when your child tells you that something on upsetting happened to them, what is the like, what is the response, I'm really sorry that happened.
No, I would take a breath, very committed to breathing, okay, and then after you've taken a breath, refocus the spotlight on your child and just say, so, how did it feel like? Or you can say I'm so glad you told me that. Like, I really like knowing these things. I know I can't do anything about it, but is there anything that.
I can I can't do something right because well last night at dinner, I did say, well, you can't.
Fix his fee. I guess you couldn't fix the pain.
No, I can't. And I did say to Gus. We talked about it again when I was putting him to bed, because that takes hours upon hours, and he was telling me everything that he was feeling that night and last night, and I said, you know, only spend time with friends are supposed to make you feel good. So if a friend is making you feel good, it's okay to take a break. Is that okay?
Of course, okay, of course that's okay. I think the key is.
Like it's totally okay. But here's what I would do now.
First of all, again, I just want to say it's easier for me because I'm not in the emotions of it, Like I know what it's like.
But you have two children and you're very appropriate.
No, but there are definitely times when I'm like, you don't want to peak in high school? You know, like I say small, little obnoxious things about other people Like that is definitely and maybe I would even go as far as occasionally saying, like, you know, beyond you don't want to peak in high school, I might even predict what that person's future looks like, Like there are moments when I'm not proud of myself. You want to think that more often than not, you have a reaction that's about them and not you, kind of getting aroused and angered. But sometimes you're going to and I think that's just like, whatever, give ourselves a break. It's really hard to watch somebody be cruel to your child. That's just a hard thing you did to teach.
Me that one of the most important things you can do as a parent is to repair. Can you talk a little bit about that.
So when you make a mistake, which you will constantly, thankfully we get to make you made a mistake today. Repair is just reconnecting. So first you have to do that with yourself. So like if you screw up and you are mad at yourself, a really important practice is to say, like, hold on a second, I I made a mistake. The world still goes on, the the sun is still shining, Like this is okay. I don't want to do it again in this way. So here's what I'm going to do next time. But I'm I'm also modeling that I can make mistakes and that it's not the end of the world, and that I can forgive myself. So you have to be able to repair with yourself in order to repair with your kids. And then when you have like discord with your kids or a moment where you just feel like I lost my pool or whatever, then finding a moment to reconnect. It doesn't have to be an apology, like sometimes it's not appropriate to apologize. Sometimes it's more like it's a small thing, but you just want to get back to giggling together or knowing that you've got each other and that everything's okay between you. And it can be silent, it can be like sitting closer together and watching something funny. It doesn't have to be like, hey, remember earlier when I blah blah blah. Sometimes that's also important. A lot of times kids don't care, and so you need to watch how they're feeling about something. My guess is that when you kind of snap about something, it's so not making your kids question whether or not you love them that you come right back and everybody's like you're just a nut and we move on. That is true, and so, but I.
Do have kids that are hyper vigilant and sensitive. So if I am feeling cranky or if I'm having a bad day, they're noticing where some other kids might be like, you know, just sort of like, oh, that's mom just like doing her own thing. And so I have to say, like, you know, this has nothing to do with you. Yeah, burnt the broccoli, or I stub my toe or I actually every time I cry, like if I cry about something, if like Rob and I are in an argument and I'm like I cry all the time, but I'll always say like, oh, I just stubbed my toe. So now my kids are like, we know you don't stub your toe, right.
I think that what you're talking about is like naming your affective state. And it's such a gift to give to your kids because a lot of times, you know, we don't want our kids to know that we're experiencing feelings and so we don't mention it. But then we're walking around like clenched or you know, something's going on. So it's it's better when you can to just say I am having a rough day. It has nothing to do with you. It's just I'm letting you know. Because I might be a little snippy and I love you, I also know how to take care of myself. So I'm going to go take a walk around the block because i need to clear my head and breathe some nice air and then I'll be back.
I asked Rob in our marriage, like I asked him to do that. If he comes home from work and he's had a really better like go for a run, yeah, and I say to him like I just just tell me, just say like, hey, I had a really bad day and I'm going to go work out or I had a really bad date. It has nothing to do with you, yeah, because or else you're just guessing. And I did that a lot as a kid.
It's scary.
Yeah, and so I really am. That is one thing I'm super conscious about is always saying to them like, yeah, you're one hundred percent right, I'm super cranky, I did not sleep, I'm tired or whatever.
You know, and you're doing you're taking away that like a child's imagination is almost always going to think of something worse than the truth.
Yeah.
So it's such a gift to be able to say, oh, yeah, I've had a terrible day. I'm going to zone out and watch TV, or I'm going to go work out, I'm going to take a bath or whatever it is that makes you feel better. And also it has nothing to do with you, and there's nothing that you can.
Do to make it better. It's just what it's just my wave to ride.
And that's also the guessing like that you're talking about from your childhood. Then you have to walk on eggshells and kind of wonder, and then you might have to perform to get the mood that you're looking for. Exactly and it feels like it's on you right. Sorry to the Winklers if that feels disrespectful suggesting.
We're very open on what in the Winkler We are very we dig deep over here.
Okay.
Social media is taking over our life in a crazy way.
And I mean I could watch your stories for days.
My stories are amazing, they are, and I love Instagram for that reason. I have fun with my stories. I mean, I enjoy it. But I'm also private and I'm not you know, but I'm also forty four, yes, and I have a hard time putting down my phone. So you know, Ace is like one of the only kids in his class, he's in seventh grade that doesn't have social media, and he asks me about it all the time. And I'm getting to the point, you know, what is this like? What is there like a roadmap to this, because it just feels like uncharted territory, and not even just social media, but technology like iPads I think are like crack.
Yeah, I'm horrible. I think, first of all, there isn't a roadmap, and even those who claim to have a roadmap, it's not rooted in any certainty. It's sort of a guess my guess is that the way the brain develops, you want to be cooked longer. But also we want to think about anything that we do offer. Like let's say you do decide to say you can try starting with social media, which delaying as long as you can is going to be ideal. That it's not like, Okay, now the genie's out of the bottle and that's it. You can say I made a terrible mistake. I can see that it's not good for you, and it's my job to take it away right now while we figure out a better plan or to minimize it. Or we can start with you can use it on my phone for five minutes. I mean, that's a separate thing, just because I personally don't like my kids to be near my phone. I just it's my private phone, and also I have clients and I just don't need But there are many ways to do baby steps and say like let's see how you do, let's see how this feels for you, and I'm going to make some agreements with you, and then we're going to take it away if it's not working. And I don't think you should do that yet. I think you have time to just keep delaying but when you do, I just feel like I see so many parents feel trapped, like, well, it's too late, and unless they're paying their bills and working their jobs, it's never too late. And as long as you have compassion when you say it, like I know this is going to be really a bummer because you loved this, but it's not going well. And my job is to be able to say when you can't, this isn't good for you. And so I think there are definitely steps. Delaying is the first one, and the second one is supporting, mentoring, monitoring to a certain extent, because they can't their brains aren't in any way, shape or form able to self regulate around this. And I have heard from some people like, and I'm not an extremist, I would also say like, I have a friend who has a ninth grader who has social media, and she's totally thriving, and she's super social and in real life, and she is taking her phone away at night and she's not using it at the dinner table, and the kid is doing great. So when her mom asked should I remove social media from her life? I was like, I think you've already removed it. During the risky times and she's thriving, Whereas someone else might say that to me, and I would ask like, well, how's your kid doing in their friendships and what are they feeling about their body image and what's going on in their sleep and all those things, And if the answers are more bleak, I would say they are not candidates for this.
So it really is a kid by kid it is.
There's just never one size fits all. I know that everybody likes that because it's more comfortable and comforting, but each of your kid kids are going to be different. It's never good for younger kids. It's never you know, it's always good to delay. But I just think there are going to be some who shouldn't have it, like they just are not candidates for it at all. Ever, and somewhere when they get to a certain age, it's probably really fun.
Right, I mean, that's the question. And I feel like I definitely do. I know my kids, so I all of them, you know, and I know, and I'm so happy that he has a phone. It's changed art life. Like you know, if he where he is, where he if he wants to be picked up, I track him, you know, all the things but it is also scary that like some a stranger could reach out to your kid, and you know, you hear these stories and it just feels so big that I don't even know where to start. And I and A said to me the other day, like, you say no more than any of my friend's parents, And I almost felt I almost felt I felt like embarrassed. I was like, oh, God, am I like And then I, you know, because I have my own stuff, I'm like, oh, is he going to be included? And is he gonna But then I thought to myself, I wonder if part of him even feels maybe like more contained. Yeah, because I'm making the hard decisions for him.
One of the most one of the biggest predictors of anxiety, other than like heritability of anxiety and chaos in general, is permissiveness. So it's so scary when you're kind of the leader of the house and you're wishy washy about these things and kind of letting the kids decide on like when they're ready for everything. So I think the idea of collaborating with kids and hearing from them but then making the final decision is actually quite comforting. So even if he hates it, he really like benefits from it.
It's like comfortable. Yeah, what this might be like a very hard question to answer because I know you cover so many topics, but what episode or topic has resonated most deeply with your listeners on your podcast? Like what is the what is the topic that you get asked most about? Is there is there one that you can think of?
I mean, I can't even believe this, but I think disciplines still just really comes up all the time. And I mean from whether we're talking about toddlers or teenagers, just kind of like the the the trickiness of like having a close connected relationship and having boundaries and limits that upset your kids or which ones are appropriate or how do you do that? I think that really is just a constant source of tension. And probably no, that's it the consequences.
It's interesting because it's the idea is that you the consequence makes sense and aligns with whatever the behavior was. So it's like this morning, for instance, one of my kids woke up really early to find Buddy the Elf, and I was like, it's too early.
Whose Buddy the Elf?
The elf on the show? I don't know why I did this, but I don't know why I did this. I have two I have I have Buddy and Astro. I can't even talk about it. And literally, this is what's so crazy. There's a mom in Jules's class that I love. Actually she's in Gus's class. Her nephew is in Jules's class. And I just actually see what she posts on Instagram and then I copy it and I just do the exact thing the next night. So she did sprinkles in the I don't even know with the elves, and I did it whatever. Anyways, I totally ruined it. Apparently my sink drips and so the sprinkles were submerged in water. The tape all the sprinkles that, yeah, it was horrible. Anyways, I'm a failure at the elf. But he wanted to get up and see the elf, and I was like, it's not time to get up. I was exhausted. Sleep is the most important thing to me.
And I.
Was like, if you don't, if you wake me up one more time, you are going to lose your iPad this weekend, because they get ipout on the weekend. I realized, like, that doesn't make sense, doesn't make sense. Wasn't a thing. It was also six, but it's late start on Wednesday, so I really wanted to sleep till seven. But it's hard to figure out. I feel like I don't I don't give my kids enough punishments or consequence. I don't know if that's saying because I can't figure out all the time, Like what what called it makes sense?
Yeah, I mean in that case, to me, it's like there won't be elf on the shelf. Right, I said that, and that's it.
The elf was already suspended from the light in the kitchen, wrapped in tinfoil, looking like they were on the moon. Well, so I couldn't really the next day, right, like I think.
The elf isn't going to be able to come if you get up too early or whatever. But I also, as a side note, it's very exciting, like it's an exciting time, So it makes sense. So I would also say, I totally get why you're so excited, and you can stare at that elf and look for that elf, but not not until not with me, and not you can do it, but you have to let Yeah, but I'm going to sleep. But the other thing is that you don't need them to suffer because of the consequences. Like, I think part of why we're trying to figure out a consequence that makes sense and then we think it doesn't work is because we're like looking for them to say, like, oh, now I understand that I did something wrong, and therefore.
I'm gonna yeah, Like is that even gonna right?
That's not. It's more like learning cause and effect and nothing more right, but nobody ever, Like behavior change doesn't occur from punishment anyway, but moving through the world occurs better when you know that there are consequences to your actions. So if they're arbitrary, you don't learn that.
Okay, that makes a lot of sense. One more thing before we do this really fun game where it's like a lightning round. I'm super fired up.
I'm not such a slow talking and moving person. We'll make it work, Okay, I actually know this about you. What I'm something I'm struggling with is the sibling Oh that was the other thing I forgot to say, discipline and siblings.
The sibling thing. There you go, it's it's really it's really like I'll be like, do you guys know how lucky you are to have each other? And they're looking at me like, no, we don't. We just do have each other, right, And I often think, what is I need to understand what is healthy sibling rivalry and cattiness and fighting and all that stuff, and like, what is what is when I need to step in? I mean obviously when it gets physical, but I mean they don't really get physical. I have like they're not like they're not like hugely physical kids. They're like a little bit ninnies like me.
Oh my god, I don't think they're very strong. You don't need to jump in as much as you think you do. That's the first thing.
I just can't hear it all day.
Well, so that's a separate thing, because the viciousness of siblings is pretty intense. And I what I would say across the board is you can't really believe that this is okay except it is. And I'm not saying you should be like as get as mean as you want because this is normative, but knowing in your heart, like, okay, they are not going to grow up and hate each other because of these vicious moments. They much more likely will struggle. If you intervene all the time and are sort of you want to be a witness not a judge, and it's really hard not to judge because it's so you know, we identify with one of the kids in the situation, and then we're just like, I'm going to just take you down the other kid. But if you can just not intervene as often as possible, but then coach when you intervene, what does that look like? Well, for one thing, I would say to them, Hey, guys, if you're going to fight, since I'm going to have to do something about it. If I hear this, I suggest you get smarter about it, like do it away from me, do it in the other room, use a whispering voice, like be intentional and manipulative and you're fighting. This is ridiculous because of course you're gonna have to say something if they're doing it in your face.
So they always say that I that the younger one gets away with everything because he will have like a level ten tantrum, right, which is something you know I have. I never had a kid until my youngest that would really just give it their all, like I could always rein it in, I could always I could always reach them. He will just go and he doesn't care where he is and he's big, so I can't lift him up now and be like, excuse me, I need to remove you from the situation. So it's not that i'm always but he's also the youngest. He's also seven, so it's like a big difference between you know, thirteen and nine.
But you don't want the older ones to resent him, no, I do not, so also believing that like when he goes there, he'll come out right, it just might take a really long time. Is so you know, it's like what can you tolerate? But you definitely don't need to intervene as much as you do for sure. I don't even know how much you intervene, but I mean, and.
It's just like they have to decide on what show to watch together, which is hard because that is hard seven to thirteen. But they don't have iPads during the week, and we have a TV in our room and then we have a TV in the living room, so they have to like so it's usually I have nowhere to go in my house. I'll literally sit in my closet or on the bathroom floor because one of them is in my room, one of two of them are in the living room. And then I just I'm like, where do I go.
Well, I mean you can, but again it's like what can you tolerate? But you can just decide that you sit with them and you make a calendar and on this this is the day of the week that Gus chooses, This is the day of the week the Jewels chooses. Like, you can do that. We do that with songs in the car, so you can do it with TV shows and then just I mean it's hard because you can't do that with everything. There's endless stage difference, you know, like they don't always have to like it. I mean, let me tell you, don't you remember from childhood, like there just weren't a lot of options.
I don't.
You don't.
Don't I had lots of options as a child. I think, lots of rooms to go into. It's a very different program over at my house.
You know what, though, what you don't know is how awesome it is that your kids don't have they have to figure out how to work together because that is what builds closeness. And so they don't have to like the TV show that they're watching. That's the other thing is like.
And they can also do something else and they.
Can opt out, so if you choose what you know and you can say that to them, you can opt out. But someone's not going to be happy. That is just a given. And I need to be.
Happy the most important person.
So I would like you guys to be or you can say we don't have to watch TV at all during the week, like I want. I'm here for you guys, I'm on your team. I want there to be this option. But I'm not going to listen to this all day.
Okay, I just want to do this fun lightning round really quickly because we're running out of time because it talks slowly. No, you're amazing, but like it's my podcast is a little bit short. Maybe if they renew me, it'll get longer. Okay, So what is the most overrated piece of parenting advice you've heard?
Oh?
God, the most overrated parenting advice? Have you ever seen a slower lightning round? No?
Never, You're gonna have to do better. Run question number one. Okay, I'll go to the next one. What is an underutilized parenting tool more people should know about?
Zipping it? Zipping It?
Name one must read book.
For parents, The Five Principles of Parenting, Your Essential guide to raise a good humor effect.
Share your favorite parenting moment.
My favorite parenting moment is makes me look like the worst, But no, can I tell you too?
May be so fast I want to.
The first one was when my youngest was seven and my oldest was ten. And my oldest and I are like boppier as people, like if we had a tail, it'd be wagging, and my younger one's more like a cat. And I looked at her in the dinner and I said, Vivian, why aren't you happy? And she said, mom, just because I'm not smiling doesn't mean I'm not happy. And I was like, oh right. As a psychologist, this could be something I know, but as a mother I did not, And I was so excited. I was like, thank you for knowing who you are and reminding me that I need to know who you are.
I love that.
And the other one is that I got into a fight with my oldest very recently. And we do not fight very much like we might argue about a song in the car bicker, but I'm not like a fighter, and she is just about to be eighteen, and I was so mean, and it was because of a sibling I did not like I just was set off by something between the kids, and I was really mean, and I was uncharacteristically mean and shamed. I just like went into my room and kind of just sat there, like I'm a failure as of both a mother and in my job, and I should just call it. Also, I thought I ruined her future. And Colin said to me because I called him like sabbing my fiance, and I said, I've done it. I'm like the worst. And he said, what would you tell a client? And I said, you mean the whole repair thing. It's nonsense, Like this is all nonsense, and and I just like I went too far. And then she came into my room like ten minutes later, and she said, I'm pretty sure by now you want to repair, right, And I said I do. I'm so sorry, and she's like it's okay. I love you and I said I love you too, and then she started talking about something completely off topic that was like it just indicated to me that our relationship was actually like strong, it was strong, and that the science isn't a lie, you know, Like I was like, oh, I'm not full of it. I don't have to stop now. And I didn't ruin everything I love.
I love both of those. What is the most creative bedtime delay tactic you've encountered?
I think just a class really serious question about God or or whatever.
Yeah, he said to me last night, Why would God because.
The internet was out? Yeah, classic God.
And so we weren't able to listen to his meditation sure that he needs. And it was a real it was a real problem. And he said, why would God do bad things? And I said, like what I was thinking, like war, death, make the internet not work when he knows that I need a meditation. Oh, I said, God's really busy right now working on some other things.
How wonderful that that's like the worst thing he got.
I said to him, maybe this is a lesson because we need to learn how to go to bed without meditations. Meanwhile, I found it on my phone, so it all works out because I'm pathetic. What would you say, is your parenting superpower? I know what it is you do. What is it You've created like this incredible, loving safe household where Penelope can come and say to you, let's repair and not even it doesn't even and like, yes, you went too far, but it doesn't even phase her because she just like moved on and was talking about something else.
Yeah, I think I think my parenting superpower might just be like I'm a good hang with them, like I just want to hang out for anyone, to be honest.
What questions would your teenagers definitely ask if they were conducting this interview.
I don't think they would be interested in any way, shape or form in interviewing me.
What is the most surprising phrase you've caught yourself saying as a parent?
I think that I often say the most annoying phrase, which is what's your plan? What's your plan? And my kids are like, our plan is too like it's not saying I would.
I say that every day? And now my kids also say what is our plan? Every day?
Mine don't think that it's productive, and it really like it is so annoying to them because but then I say it anyway, I can't help it.
You did great on the lightning round except for the first one. Would you like anymore? We're done?
No? I just the worst parenting advice is probably to do anything that is prescriptive, because it just doesn't work that.
Way unless it feels authentic to you.
Don't do it unless it feels authentic to you.
I'll work for you now, I just won't go get my master's. Thank you for listening to What in the Winkler. Make sure to tell a friend thank you, Lisa