Under-the-Radar Growth

Published Aug 6, 2021, 8:00 AM

Chris Mack, a portfolio manager at Harding Loevner, discusses his firm’s investment process and how his fund's hunt for “under-the-radar growth” stocks led him to some regional banks. He also discusses the defensive aspects of tech stocks in the age of Covid, and developments in the semiconductor industry, among other topics.

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No Market Breadth, No Problem as Faangs Lift S&P 500 Higher​​​​​​​

Hello, and welcome to What Goes Up, a weekly markets podcast. My name is Mike Reagan. I'm a senior editor at Bloomberg, and this week on the show, well, if you look at the leadership of the stock market in the second quarter so far, it's sort of a classic defensive leadership, healthcare, Utilities, Technology. Wait, technology, has the delta variant gotten so bad that tech is defensive again? Or were we crazy simply to ever think that tech would fall off the market's leaderboard for very long. To begin with, we'll get into it with a portfolio manager and tech analyst, but first I want to welcome back to the show a woman who there's a bit of mystery to her, but she's no stranger to our our listeners here on What Goes Up. She's coming back for another co hosting gig. Her name is Vildonna Hirich. Vildonna, welcome back. Thanks for having me. And since you are known, you don't get the Charlie Pellett introduction treatment. I'm sorry about that, but next time I'll definitely expect it. But I'm glad to have you on, Vildona because as a proud New Jersey native like yourself, it's a big week for New Jersey women in the Olympics. Are you as excited as I am about all these gold medals that that the great state of New Jersey is winning. I'm hugely excited. And my household was like cheering and so excited all week. And a thing move is from Trenton. I'm from Trenton, so I was really really excited to see her win, right, I don't forget Sidney McLaughlin right down the road for me. Yeah, very exciting. Vildona, if you were in the Olympics, what would you be taking gold medal in? Oh my gosh, that's I mean not I'm like not athletic at all. I can't even picture some of the things they do, Like hurdles. I can't even picture anybody ever looking at one and thinking I'm going to jump over that, let alone jump over it very very quickly. So I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan of the hurdles, and I'm a big fan of the Jamaican team, even though not as big of a fan as the New Jersey Condensed of the Olympic. But the Jamaican track team is so so athletic. Well, Donna, you would win gold in the Craziest Things of the Olympics, though I will say the craziest things. If there was an event for craziest things in the markets in a week, you would win the gold. And I will say, anyone else who out there has seen something crazy, by all means, give us a call on the Bloomberg Podcast hotline. I've been very negligent and not giving out the number for several episodes, but by all means, call us up at six four six three to four three four nine zero. Again that's six four or six three two four three four nine zero. Our lines are open. As they say on radio, I think I don't know something like that, but I leave us a voicemail on the hotline with the craziest thing you saw on markets and maybe we'll play it on the show. Well down, another proud New Jersey and I believe at least his firm is located in New Jersey is this week's guest. As I said, he's a portfolio manager at Harding Lovener. His name is Chris Mack. Chris, welcome to the show, Thanks Mike, and yes you're right New Jersey born and raised, so absolutely Jersey roots here and a leaf yet grad to boot which is kind of like almost New Jersey esque in Pennsylvania right over the river. Uh, kind of a rival to my Delaware Blue Hens. But I'm not gonna I'm not gonna get on your case about that. That's okay. And movie Hi is the only rivalry that counts. B That's that's true. I can't compete with you all in football, but we've we've gotten uh so yeah, I'll pretend it's a rivalry basketball. So it's a decent mashup sometimes. But but Chris, let's get into it. I know you have a pretty heavy tech focus at your firm and the funds you helped manage um. What is going on with tech being back in the leadership? I think the simple explanation narrative is that everyone's worried about the virus again. But as I said in the intro, I mean, did it ever make sense to sort of bet again this tech? I mean, is is it just a perennial leader that we should kind of always look to an absence of some other reason for say, the cyclical stop performed? How are you thinking about just the sector as a whole right now? Sure? Yeah, and you know, we could talk about maybe since the pandemic or even some of the trends that have been taking on a longer term perspective. You know, it's interesting about technology, and I think you mentioned in your comments earlier you start talking about cyclical or defensive, right, And if you look at the how the the the sector has evolved in terms of index representation, software has become a much much larger percentage of the index as opposed to go way back when it's much more hardware. Semiconductor is pretty strong, so you know, and even software as a whole has because their business model has shifted, right, a little bit more of recurring revenue, less counting on cyclical launches of versions of software, a little bit less CAPEX intensive, right, and so it has become a little bit more at the margin defense to your point, But when you look back over the past year, it's been different segments leading tech. There was a period of time when it was all about the semiconductor shortage and that cyclical rebound, and so semis were leading the way you go back last year it was more about software and digitalization of everything, um and then you know, particularly smaller cap software where maybe these companies are not yet profitable that they're growing really fast because they're acquiring users and can come more profitable more quickly. Um. So it's been different, different turns in leadership. One point, small caps semiconductors, now back to the big tech, which, to your points, a little bit more defensive. Chris, I remember last year when people positioning in tech companies actually was signaling that potentially we could be seeing a much longer time period of the recovery from the pandemic. But I also wanted to ask you if you could maybe tell us a bit more about your top holdings, because I think you guys owned some things, but then the same time you also own some regional banks, which, uh is an interesting play given what's going on with interest rates. So maybe you can tell us a bit more about how you guys are positioning. Sure, and it kind of gets too I guess you would say, the debts. Okay, what are we doing? Uh? You know, we we take a look at businesses. We look at combination of quality of the business, the profitability, growth, and then lastly valuation. So evaluation tends to dictate where we move. So tech has been a structural large weight for us health care as well. Um, we'll touch on that a little bit later, but I'll get to your point on banks. Uh, we are relativity index overweight on banks has become a larger position for US. But it's not been so much a cyclical trade, if you will. It's been much more about how are we finding under the radar growth financials that are able to grow irrespective of what interest rates are going to happen. Right. So example of that is a company like First Republic, which is a big holding for US. They're primarily growing a lot of relationship wise through refer calls um fee based income from from wealth management advice. Uh, So that is a little bit less dependent upon what's happening with interest rates. It will certainly help them too, but you know, if you look back, seventy percent of their growth has been coming from existing customers uh and just growing their wealth over time. So there's a certain element here that that's not relying on any particular cycle. Those are those are kind of financials that appeal to us. I was looking at those holdings to it's it's fascinating to me. So First Republic and SVB Financial what I find I guess it's not funny. But I kind of find it funny is that these are stocks that are in both value and growth indexes. So it's kind of like everyone's deciding to rotate from growth growth to value A why not by the ones that are that are in both indexes? But I mean, when you think about it, is that almost a viable strategy? What? As you said, what are the growth stocks that are that are priced like value stocks in a way. I mean, it seems you know, that's the conversation that doesn't get brought into the growth value roots rotation. It seems like, yeah, no, that's absolutely true. And I think that's so I think this a lot of times it's framed there's this false dichonomy is it growth or is it value? And there's there could be quite a little overlap. You look at historically companies like Apple that have been in both UH and you so so there's this this false conception and you have to pick more or the other. And so we're looking for growth, but just reasonably price growth, and sometimes that leads us into something that's more value esque. But then you know, even think take the case for value today, there it's it's about could value stock could the underlying businesses grow more quickly coming out of the pandemic then the growth businesses that are trading out of premium right. Um So even even the value case has got some element of growth to it. UM. So for us, the lines blur. It's really looking at what are the strongest position businesses within their industries, Uh, you know, where the where the structure is the strongest um and then less than looking at that valuation. So financials paired with technology makes a lot of sense to us. Um even if you know you could have a financial related technology company like in payments, like PayPal, which is one of our larger holdings. Um. You know, given digital payments and and so on, um And so combining that with healthcare for example, and a decent amount of industrials with some cyclical exposure. That's the way we're navigating this current environment. Because we can't predict what's happening with the delta variant. We don't know what's going to happen with interest rates. I could certainly give you my opinion, but I could wouldn't put a whole lot of weight in that opinion. So how do we manage those uncertainties is through a globally diversified portfolio. I'm glad you brought up the delta variant again because I wanted to ask you how you and your team are thinking about what's been going on and in terms of what the bond market is signaling. That's it signal that potentially we could have a slower growth environment or are some of the signals from the bond market a bit more technical in nature. How are you thinking about it? And how much of a threat is the delta variant to growth and growth propects us? Certainly a threat, and I think when it goes back to thinking about the pandemic recovery and vaccinations globally and just this notion that okay, certainly not every country is able to get either access to the vaccinations, are able to distribute them broadly enough that we have this uneven recovery if it's all about just the pandemic, right, And so that's already been coming into play. Now the delta variant just brings it home to roost, and now it comes home here in the US. That is threatening because vaccinations didn't quite get to the level that we had all been hoping for, and so now it just makes everyone tap the brakes again. So if you think about the whole case for you know, the higher interest rates, it gets back to this, what's going to happen with inflation? Right? And to what extent are Yeah, we have this stronger demand coming out of the pandemic because fortunately it wasn't as damaging as it could have been. You also had some flancial you know, economic incentive packages that have helped out there. Uh ease the blow if you will, um, but you know, trying to get the supply up and running. We see it in a semi connector sector for example, right or semi connector industry or building look at the price of you know, of building materials and what's happened. So we had this period we're up until May, everyone was anticipating inflation, and then that great CPI number comes in and you could see some of these you know, timber prices and everything just roll over right, And so I think everything would point to the FED being on the right path and saying that it is it will be transient. If you ask me, um, question is how long is transient? Because it's certainly these things are bottled up and it's some haven't come down the Pike yet right, it's gonna take some time for the semi connector shortage to ease. You know that there's gonna be more demand for sem reason things like autos and you know, tried buying an auto, trying running a car right now, it's impossible. Um, And so that's going to take some time for that manufacturing supply chain to to to respond. And then if anything, you go into next year, hey, maybe we are going to swing on the other side over capacity and back into the story of deflation and everything else that has been such a technology lead thing through digitalization. So a bit you know going on there. But um, to your point, Yeah, if you look at the tenure yield on treasury that's rolled up, you wouldn't have thought any of this has happened, right back to the old big tech deflation type trade. Uh. And you know, so there's no way of knowing exactly what's gonna happen in the future. I would argue that the longer term past is much more likely than the more recent past that seems to be more temporary nature due to pandemic related effects. Every time I hear the word transy and I think of those old hoboes that used to wander around with like the stick and the and the bag on the end of the stick and ride in the rails. Anyway, thats just me that that that's neither that's neither here nor there. But Chris I said something early on that I think is so important. You know that there's so many different subsectors within technology UM. You know, obviously they've tried to sort of break out, you know, the the Amazons and the facebooks and the Googles out of the main tech index and put them in discretionary or communications. I think there's an argument to be made that maybe the index providers could do that again, maybe a couple of times, and break up hardware and whatever. But specifically thinking about chip stocks, you know, the fascinating thing to me is this shortage of chips this year exposed the reality that basically every company, what company is not at at its core somehow exposed the tech these days. I mean, if you can't, if you can't build up an automobile without the supply of chips, uh, you know, it's just remarkable, and on up and down the line. Financial companies UM are in large sense mostly technology companies. These days, but specifically with chips. It's been such a shocking year for the chip sector with these shortages and the ripple effects caused by them. In your mind, does it seem like like a sort of tipping point type of event that will change the industry forever? In other words, will we sort of get away from that just in time type of manufacturing uh, that so many companies had relied on. Uh? Can we actually expect some foundries in the US at some point? I mean, and more companies you know talking about you know, fabricating their own ships or is that is that kind of a pipe dream? I mean, it's so expensive to to to get into that game. How do you see that all playing out? Sort of as a long term effect of everything we've seen in the past year. Yeah, on a longer term view, Um, you know, I think over time there is that potential that you do have a broader manufacturing footprint as it becomes more strategic. But to your point, it's easier said than done, right, It's very it's only becoming more and more and more expensive to manufacturers smaller and smaller chips, uh, and certain transistors, and so if you look at how someone like Taiwan Semiconductor. It's also holding of ours has become so dominant. Uh, it's in part because of these economies of scale that a crew and the expertise for them operating this foundry model, which if you go way back when companies used to produce their own chips here in the US for example, UH, and then they decided to outsource them. Why they outsource them because of the volatility in cycles made it very costly endeavor for them to predict. So you you would bear the brunt of all this capital expenditure and then a few time the cycle wrong, you take the financial hit. So working with someone like a Time one semiconductor outsourcing that manufacturing, that company is able to now diversify across all the different end markets and their customers that they have, and they could soften the blow and run much more profitable model over time that allows them to continue investing in cathotics and so on and so forth. Um, So you know, I think you're they're going to try to there's certainly more government incentives to try to do for them to manufacture elsewhere, whether it's in the US. Europe is also talking the same type of thing. What does it change longer term. I'm not sure it changes too much. Um. I think at the end of the day comes back to industry structure. Yeah, it comes back to you know, who are the who. I think you're seeing more customization and chips for things like artificial intelligence, Google design their own ships, Amazon, Apple, and that only fragments the end market, which gives more strength to the end manufacturer at the end of the day. Yeah, Chris, I wanted to ask you about small caps. I know one of the funds you helped manage is A is a small cap fund, and we talk about the rugs sort of getting pulled out of that as an asset class. Um. You know, it was supposed to be one of the big beneficiaries of the reopening, the reflation trade, and that's kind of uh, you know, the that's kind of turned around. I mean, I guess, um, when you're an active manager, it's arguably easier to to navigate than when you know you're buying just the two thousand index, the Russell two thousand index. Um. But what is your thinking about small caps as an asset class right now? I mean where how are you sort of sifting through everything and finding finding the best, most promising companies given this turnaround we've seen in the the index level small cap situation. Yeah, so if anything, so, yeah, it's an interesting environment for us as being more growth for focused Uh, the headwind that the effects value simpall cap value in particular was outperforming growth by a wide margin um and so we benefited from the growth tail end last year and then we're suffering a little bit from it this year. So the fact you know, seeing somewhere all over, we're not complaining too much about that, but as that's happened, it's given us opportunities to look at, you know, smaller growth companies that have been left behind. Like one of the areas that's kind of interesting is us specialty retail. There's a lot of talk that you know, it's just an Amazon world. It's all e commerce, right, And there's some small companies or smaller companies that are interesting that we own in the in the all cap fund, like an Etsy for example, that used to be a small cap and now it's no longer. But there are brick and mortar retailers that are doing okay in this environment. They're managing that, they're growing their stores, they are taking advantage of the disruption from the pandemic and the weak weaker financial strength of competitors to acquire more land and real estate and build and so some examples companies that are doing that. Company Ali's allis discount retail. They're growing their stores year every year. UM. They've actually been able to They have this discount model where you know, people are always still there's a really there's a reason to visit the store every day. They have a loyalty system UM, and so they've been able to grow their customers in part because through the pandemic they've were able to sell more UM essential items, cleaning products and so on, but they offer other things and so they have a good buying that we're kind of like a small t J mat Max if you will. UM. Another one is five below, this little niche targeting that teenage tween type segment with quirky different things at a reason you know, but at they're occupying this niche that is something that people go for that experience and it's not an Amazon type world. It's a different type of buyer and people look forward to going to that store. And they've been able to survive and then thrive through it too, So you know the answer to your question is just being very careful looking for insisting very strongly on that financial strength because we don't know when there's going to be cyclical changes, but we want to make sure, particularly as a smaller company, you've got that margin of safety that you know they're going to come out from it stronger and take advantage. And some of those retailers. I think that's an interesting area that you know, in the world everyone just think is about bigger and better in e commerce, there's some companies that are growing with financial strength in retail. Yeah. As a father of three daughters, well done, I'm very familiar with five below. I uh, A lot of disposable income gets dumped into that place. It's remarkable though, that is talk about it. Impulse purchase Meca. You know, I found myself buying, you know, going in there, taking a kid there to get some art supplies or whatever, and and finding myself some impulse fights some stuff that. Actually, that's how I feel about t J Max, which you just mentioned, and one of their other brands is Marshals, which I feel like I could go there every day and just buy like millions of things I have absolutely no use for I'm one of those I'm one of those consumers. I could tell you. I mean, you may attest when you know things start to reopen. Last year, there were lines out the door and around the corner to get back into t J Max. And that just we have this debate all the time about the pandemic and where the lasting changes. Where are the new habits that are going to be formed, and where are the old ones? And it just goes to show you that even though a lot of us are spending more on e commerce, there's certain experiences that we want to have in person that just come back, whether it's travel or you know, or or or going to a t J Max for example. It's it's a good point about Etsy graduating out of the small cap space. It must be a little frustrating when you when you run a small cap fund too, to pick a great stock and then watch it sort of graduate out of your out of your benchmark, Like I did everything right? Stay, why can't I keep this stock in the fun But I guess that's how it works. Yeah, we have we try to take into that into account. We we do give a little bit a leeway so we could sell it intelligently, and sometimes it helps us that discipline for something that is overvalued too. So you know, we just have to keep keep at it, and there's longer term opportunities, and that smaller cap UH focus gives that opportunity for the customers that are interested in that to diversify their portfolios. So it's not just all things right, it's a way to differentiate yourself and get diverse returns. I feel like the through line here really is consumer behavior and what the consumers thinking and doing. And one of the things that I had noticed this week is a lot of the research notes that that I was reading more mentioning mobility data, and people are still going out to restaurants. There's still foot traffic, you know, any of these measurements Apple mobility data, people out on the road, and it's actually holding up really well. And I'm wondering if you and Chris, you and your team also look at some of these so called real time data to UH to inform your strategy. Yeah, because you know, it's information that's out there, we look at it. UM. I think the big thing here is I don't think we necessarily have any particular edge from looking at that that's a that's that's data that's out there. I think it's much more about interpretation and what we're going to do. So it's much more about understanding. To this extent, it can inform us of longer term trends or longer term debates that we could have. Okay, the mobility data says this, is there anything here that that that pretends to something that could be extrapolated in a longer term or is this just a short term deal? Right? And so to extend it could help you time things a little bit, sure, but on a longer term three to five year view, we're not doing too much of that. If the T s A numbers go down, we're not, you know, going to be dumping one way or another. I think it's much more about, Okay, is there value in this sector? Is there value in this industry? Okay? If there's a short term transient effect, okay, that's an opportunity for us to add on a longer term view, provide the company's got financial strength, good management, longer term growth opportunities. So yeah, we look at it, but it's not it doesn't inform what we do. Stand clear of the craziest things we saw in markets this week. All right, guys, you know you both represented New Jersey very well this week. We didn't even talk about what everyone's favorite boardwalk is yet, but I think we'll have to save that for the next time because we have to talk about the crazy things Bill Donna. As you know well, Donna is our chief crazy things correspondent, Chris Um. But I kind of we'll talk after the show about the best boardwalks I've got, I've got, I've got some serious thought on that. I don't want to tell you my favorite because the beach we go to is actually really quiet and not that many people go to it, and I don't want to ruin that you're hoarding it off yourself. That's uh, the beach scarcity issue is is a big deal in New Jersey. All Right. I can respect that, but you do have to share your crazy thing, Bill don and I hyped you up, so I want you to go first. What's the craziest thing you saw in markets this week? Well, I think a lot of listeners might remember that the last time I was on the pod, we talked about something that was happening in space in terms of astronauts doing laundry. In space and so I'm revisiting that same theme this week, and Bloomberg had a story that caught my eye. It's a company called I Space. It's a Tokyo based space startup, and it's planning its first trip to the Moon next year. It raised forty six million dollars from Japanese investors to help bancrol those missions. So I feel like there's a lot happening with with space and all of the billionaires visiting space, and uh, that one was interesting to me. Are they going to put an actual person on the Moon? Are they just going to drop a little robot or something there? Oh, I'm not sure. Actually that's a good question. Probably robot. I think we would hear about it as a person. Look, I'm not one of those people that says the moon landing was staged, But I'm also like, how come no one else has landed on the moon? Human? What's going on? You know you're not one of those people, but yet you are. Yah? Yeah, I guess I guess that's my tough Maybe bezo us for uh where Richard Brents and we'll be up there these as will drop like an Amazon flag on the moon something. But all right, Chris, that one's pretty good, But can you beat a moon landing? As I don't know. I feel like this whole year is just full of crazy things, right, whether it's n f T S and crypto and everything else or set you know, Bezos going to the moon or not the moon going into our space on like this odd shaped rocket that you know, is there's so much that's like fiction, that's that's reality, that's true. Um so you know, or like the spot and the special for Atlas special purpose Entities and everything that's going on. But I'll go it's something that's a little bit you know, maybe less crazy and just more interesting to me, which is just I think you alluded to at the beginning of the of the show, which is just this the healthcare tech thing, which is just the fact that, um, you know, I think everyone thinks about them together in this environment. And I would notice that if you go past the past earning season, there's been a little bit of decoupling between tech reaction and health care reaction. And maybe that's the market trying to tell us that the pandemic this is the crazy thing. You know, maybe we should be all worried that the pandemic is going to get a lot worse again, and I think you certainly put that through there. And so it's interesting how the market tries to anticipate these things and you go back and you say, yeah, they really got it. And so now this makes me nervous of it for the future just in general. But it seems like there's no appetite for lockdowns, which is why the tech companies aren't doing better. It's much more about more tests and innovation there. So yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense to read it that way. You know, we're not gonna be stuck at home, but we're still going to be dealing with this thing for for a long time. That's pretty good. Um and and sad and scary. That might be the scariest thing of the week as well. Well done, Chris, crazy and scared, crazy and scary is dangerous. Smikes. Sorry, I got I got a good one for us to end on. Um and it's from the the Pressure Precious Metals Asset class And uh, well, Donna, you know there's a joke that if someone if you're walking in New York and someone comes up to you and says, hey, do you know how I can get to Carnegie Hall. You know what you're supposed to say, no practice, practice, practice, Do you get it? Yeah? Yeah, I can tell you're dying with laughter on that one. It's an old joke and you got to know these jokes though, all right, so it's so hilarious. But I would ask, how do you get a gold medal in the Olympics? You take your phone apart and you melt all the little pieceles. That's pretty good. That is how they did it actually, Or you could say practice, practice practice again. Another way you can get one. Just buy one from an auction house, which I think is almost a bigger flex like you, you know, you wear that thing to work, you know, And people would be like, well, Donna, did you did you win a gold medal in the Olympics, and be like, no, I bought one. I'm not. I'm that type of players. So there's an auction in house that has been selling some Olympic medals and Chris, this might catch you as a surprise, but will Don will know it's now time to play prices right with the craziest things. And this is courtesy of the New York Times. Um they are writing about the aftermarket for Olympic medals. Some of them are pretty cheap, I gotta say, cheaper than you would expect. But I'm want to give you one that is sort of the the gold medal of Olympic aftermarket medals, if you will. It's actually a silver medal um from the first modern Olympic Games in Athens. In here's what you need to know then. Back then, first place was a silver medal. There was no gold medal yet if you wont you got a silver. So this is first place silver medal eight Athens Olympics. So two part question for each of you, will, Donna, what's your bid for that medal? And two? Would you wear it to work? I would not wear to work, but I'm going to guess thirty six thousand dollars thirty six thousand dollars. Sorry, I'm keeping a poker face. Chris, what's your bid for an eighteen ninety six silver first place medal Athens Olympics, very first Olympics. I'm not sure. Let me figure out what what event it was. I'm not even sure what event it was, but I guess it doesn't matter. Yeah, I think she outbids me. I was gonna I mean I would bid a lot, maybe twenty thousand, but yeah, she outbids me, so I lose that auction. You're you're taking the under taking. Yeah, I'm taking a little bit under But maybe I don't know. I think it depends at the size of this medal, right, I can't think it was too gigantic, although there probably was more silver content in today right into today. Stay, today's medals barely have anything in it. Yeah, you're probably some value to it. This is a true value investor here. He wants to know the meltdown value of the Olympic medal from no collectors mark up. For Chris, it's about the bragging though. I do you have to have that collection? I don't know, but I can't think it's gigantic though. Well, and the one outside. It would be hard to trick anyone into believing that you won a medal in the Olympics. I mean maybe I might have a better Yeah that thanks that. I know. I set you up for that one. Thank you anyway. Boston based auction house are our auctions one hundred and eighty thousand dollars one hundred and eleven one eighty thousand, one hundred eleven dollars. Pretty good. Yeah, I get the medal. Well, Mike, you didn't you didn't tell us which Olympic event you'd be participating in. Oh, hoops, come on, okay, hoops. Not that I would ever the only sport, the only Olympic type of sport I really play, although mountain bikings in now, I might be able to, uh, I might be able to pry have a better shot a qualifying for that than hoops at at this age or at any age. But you're you're a hundred and thirty year old age. Yes, exactly exactly, but some bargains on some other medals. According to the Times, silver medal and shooting from the nineteen hundred Olympics in Paris only twelve bucks and uh nine winner games in Italy. Uh so, but that I think it's the it's the value of that first Olympics that that makes it. And they don't talk about the ancient Olympics. I don't know if there's any medals available for that that that would be the big flex. I guess all right, pull down. Well, I can't believe you wouldn't wear it's work though I would totally wear that thing everywhere. I went, Really, I don't see a reason to wear it though it's for the flex. Yeah, I guess it depends on what state it's in, and like Chris said, how large it is. Yeah, Chris would wear if Laffiott ever wins a football championship, will where he'll wear that around? I think? Yeah? No, I think I probably least would wear or something like this for a day. Yeah, just just for the effect, just for fun. Yeah, you gotta show up to work for there, at least on a zoom call. You know. I'd be wearing it on a zoom call for sure. Oh what's that? Oh that's my Olympic first place silver medal from anyway. Anyway, great stuff this week, guys. I think that's all the time we have really appreciated Chris mac Wildonna high Rich. I hope we can do it again someday. Likewise, add fine, thank you very much. What goes up, We'll be back next week. That's so then you can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal website and app or wherever you get your podcasts. We'd love it if he took the time to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts so more listeners can find us. And you can find us on Twitter, follow me at Reaganonymous. Bildona high Rich is at Bildona high Rich. You can also follow Bloomberg podcasts at podcasts I Think You To, Charlie Pelletta, Bloomberg Radio, and the voice of the New York City Subway System. What Goes Up is produced by Toe for Foreheads. The head Bloomberg podcast is Francesco Leady. Thanks for listening, See you next time.

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